Land of the free?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

"A high school teacher in Brick, NJ pulled a chair from under a student after the student refused to stand for the national anthem. The school suspended one student for filming the incident, but has yet to punish the teacher."

[Background story]
[ ]


Discuss.

[ChadTower]

While you can't put your hands on a student... were I a teacher, any student who refused to stand for the national anthem would be ejected from my classroom immediately.

[Dartful Dodger]

Before Windows and Mac, I was in 7th grade I rewrote a Basic Black Jack game to display curse words instead of numbers on the school's computer in the library.  A fellow student told on me and I could not use the library for the rest of that year, and my whole eight grade year there.

Discuss.

[quarterback]

While you can't put your hands on a student... were I a teacher, any student who refused to stand for the national anthem would be ejected from my classroom immediately.

I doubt you would be a teacher for very long

[Sephroth57]

While you can't put your hands on a student... were I a teacher, any student who refused to stand for the national anthem would be ejected from my classroom immediately.

I doubt you would be a teacher for very long

lol i 2nd this, i cant see chad tower teaching anything.. =p

[quarterback]

While you can't put your hands on a student... were I a teacher, any student who refused to stand for the national anthem would be ejected from my classroom immediately.

I doubt you would be a teacher for very long

lol i 2nd this, i cant see chad tower teaching anything.. =p

Maybe teachin' how to open up a can o' whoop ass! 

[nipsmg]

Actually, I agree with ChadTower to some extent.

If the parents of the child indicated he was not to do so for religious beliefs, etc. then I would comply.  However, if some jackass kid was basically just trying to be a hardass, he'd either stand up and show some respect, or get sent to the principal's office.  Pure and simple.

--NipsMG

[GGKoul]

"A high school teacher in Brick, NJ pulled a chair from under a student after the student refused to stand for the national anthem. The school suspended one student for filming the incident, but has yet to punish the teacher."

[Background story]
[ ]

When I was in public school.

[Shape D.]

[ ]


Discuss.

That is by far the worst cinematography I have seen in my life. Who was the fool pointing the camera at the lights the whole time.  You  know theres someting wrong with kids today when they can't even point a camera properly. I would suspend him too, poor quality video like that deserves a reaction like that.

I would have suspended the set designer too.

[CCM]

I think most kids today are smart-mouthed jackasses that have no respect for anything.   That's why:

1)  I will never have kids, and
2)  I could never be a teacher

[walls83]

To hell with those kids.  I wish that teacher had shoved that flag up his ass..

[Dexter]

Will be interesting to hear the reason he stayed seated. Hopefully he refuses to recognise a flag that so many atrocities are carried out under.

I read through the comments part of that link Mr. C, theres some navy genius trying to be a hard man. Heres some of his comments...

"Your disrepectful friends can't SUE ANYONE. They are PUNKS. If you didn't stand for the National Anthem on a military base, we'd take you out back and beat the crap out you."

"You can't do squat. I know people like you...you are the first to run away when a REAL MAN puts you in your place."

"The PUNK that cursed at the teacher should be sent to a National Cemetary to dig the graves of solidiers that have served or have been killed. You're a bunch of spoiled PUNKS that deserve a kick in the balls and a 1-way ticket to MARINE BOOT CAMP and the FRONT LINES IN IRAQ!"

No wonder the invasion of Iraq was such a 'success' with quality people like this in the US armed forces boosting the 'hearts and minds' policies.

The best though, is another poster who posted the words to the village people song "in the navy". I haven't laughed as much in days. Can just imagine Private Hardmans face when he saw that ROTFLMAO!!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

That is by far the worst cinematography I have seen in my life.

I know you may be joking, but just in case...

I believe the video was shot from a camera phone, which the student was trying to hide from view. He wouldn't have been able to aim using a viewfinder. Thus, bad shots.

It seemed like the whole thing was a setup.

The friends of the kid who didn't stand have stated that this teacher has reacted violently in the past, they wanted to capture his behavior on film. Now, while I'm fully aware that these kids may be disrespectful jack-asses to him in the past, the teacher has no right to force the kid to stand. He can sit if he wants to and shouldn't have to give a reason. Bravo to the kids for standing up to his thuggery. I would support my child in doing the same.

Saying that every person should be forced to stand at attention during the anthem, irregardless of their desire not to do so, is nothing short of fascism. Plain and simple. We are not communist China, we are not North Korea, we are not Soviet-era Russia, or Nazi Germany.

I am, personally, confident enough in the founding ideals of this country that I'm not afraid of people choosing to sit out.

mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

To hell with those kids.  I wish that teacher had shoved that flag up his ass..

It's comments like this that make me want to burn a flag for spite. Bravo on your violent tendencies and continued support of child abuse!


mrC

[quarterback]

To hell with those kids.

[Shape D.]

I Dont understand how anyone could blame the teacher. This child was clearly a terrorist. All sitting there, and not participating, terrorist.

Now I ask you all What kind of a person would not participate in the national anthem.

Answer: TERRORIST

I highly suggest the Bush administration look into this situation and by all means necisary destroy  the terrorist insurection.

[ChadTower]

I would eject him for the duration of the National Anthem.  I would do it basically because if he's not going to participate he can leave.  I would also give him the option of leaving the room voluntarily and returning when it is over.  Should he refuse, he is simply doing it out of disrespect.  I would not tolerate disrespect of the flag in my classroom.  I have too many relatives who have died to protect what that flag represents, many of them not even American citizens at the time.

Sure, the kid has the right to make a political statement.  That's called conscientious objection.  He also has the responsibility to deal with the consequences, and the consequences of that in my classroom would be leaving the room during the anthem.

Too many idiots today seem to want to be like the civil rights leaders of the 50s.  Not enough idiots today seem to remember that those people, while their cause was just, were willing to face the consequences of their disobedience.  Disobediance comes with a price, those unwilling to pay that price should shut the eff up and stay obediant.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Disobediance comes with a price, those unwilling to pay that price should shut the eff up and stay obediant.

Jesus H. Christ, that is one scary, twisted statement.


mrC

[ChadTower]

It's not twisted at all.  Had that kid's father taught him to be a man, the kid would have known that disrespect is NOT the way to protest.  You don't disrespect a flag, you refuse to join in and leave so as not to spit on the graves of millions of men and women.  One can protest intelligently.  Intelligent protest gains an audience.  Stuff like this gets you dumped on your ass.

Granted, the teacher is wrong for placing hands on the kid.  There is no excuse for that and the teacher should also accept consequences for doing so.

BTW, Jesus has nothing to do with an incident in a public school.  Haven't you already covered that?

[missioncontrol]

He knows what he did was wrong because he wants his last name withheld.....

The kid disrespected his country and disrespected the teacher...

[ChadTower]

Look... a man (or teenage male) who has been raised properly knows there are some things you simply do not do to another man.  You don't slap him, you don't spit on him, you don't talk about his family, and you don't disrespect his flag.  These are all things that are wrong and will provoke a potentially violent response in a proud man.  You don't do those things unless you're willing to fight.  I know not many parents raise their kids properly (or at all) anymore, but wow it depresses me that an entire generation of men are out there who simply don't understand basic honor.

[fredster]

There is no excuse for that teacher, that's unacceptable.

If the kid was sincere in his belief, that's one thing. But if he was being disruptive, that's another.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

BTW, Jesus has nothing to do with an incident in a public school.  Haven't you already covered that?

lol. Yes. Most definitely.

You don't disrespect a flag, you refuse to join in and leave so as not to spit on the graves of millions of men and women.

I doubt this teacher would have accepted that option. How would his walking out have been percieved as any less "disrepectful". I've been to church several times recently (for funerals), and as a confirmed Catholic who is now Atheist, I stay seated during communion. I don't have to "walk out" of church. At the same time, I'm able to respect the practice *without* disrespecting Jesus or God.

I also disagree w/ you that refusing to adhere to nationalistic jingoisms like anthems and flag-waving somehow inherently equates w/ spitting on graves. In fact, people died DEFENDING our right to refuse to stand. Our freedoms *include* a right to protest & free expression.

mrC

[ChadTower]

They did die to protect the right to refuse to stand.  That is correct.  What I am seeing here, though, is a kid who refused to stand in order to provoke the teacher, not to protest with sincerity.  The teacher was wrong, and he got the provoked reaction he wanted, but the kid's actions had no root in nobility either.

The whole situation is unfortunate.  Clearly the incident was staged or they wouldn't have had a way to record it.  Neither side is in the right.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

but wow it depresses me that an entire generation of men are out there who simply don't understand basic honor.

Let me get this out of the way, I disagree with the direction this nation is heading. It's no secret I have no love for it's current administration. I disagree w/ a lot of the actions taken in America's name. However, I would stand for a national anthem because I hold in my heart an understanding of what *I* believe America should stand for. I respect it's positive achievements in the past, as well as it's potential for further achievement in the future.

That being said, you just can't DEMAND people respond the same way as you. Sitting during the Anthem is a viable form of protest. Stating otherwise is "dictating"...that's *not* why people died for that flag.

What I am seeing here, though, is a kid who refused to stand in order to provoke the teacher, not to protest with sincerity.  The teacher was wrong, and he got the provoked reaction he wanted, but the kid's actions had no root in nobility either.

EDIT (On preview): We are 100% in agreement on this. I had imagined there was more to this than what we were seeing, as well.


mrC

[fredster]

So what we have here is a setup designed to snap a hothead teacher.  This isn't a freedom issue, it's just a convient ploy, Right?

One dispute between a teacher and a student. Just becuse the school didn't fire the teacher at once surprises you?  It's not over yet. Let's see how it plays out.

And you know MrC, there are dozens and dozens of reverse cases of schools not being patriotic.  Look at this one, http://hq.protestwarrior.com/?page=/featured/PHS/PHS.php

What's the difference here? Well, there was no chair.

[Crazy Cooter]

lol.

I swear I started this whole thing when I was a kid.

[GGKoul]

And you know MrC, there are dozens and dozens of reverse cases of schools not being patriotic.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You can't open peoples eyes to lies if you're not in the room... Pride can make people blind.

Brilliant! See Cooter, you aren't so crazy after all. 

mrC

[ChadTower]

CT, consider what he was doing a "sit-in".  You can't open peoples eyes to lies if you're not in the room... Pride can make people blind.

People who "sit-in" in public buildings were arrested for trespassing during the civil rights movement.  It still happens today.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

And you know MrC, there are dozens and dozens of reverse cases of schools not being patriotic.  Look at this one, http://hq.protestwarrior.com/?page=/featured/PHS/PHS.php

I've read through the link. It really isn't a good counter example. "Operation Tiger Claw"?? Is that linked in any way to "Talon News"??

You do know that the "Protest Warriors" provoke violence in their protest, right? They've often waded into peaceful anti-war protesters, mock and scorned them, and provoked negative responses so they can cry "foul", "look how violent the leftists are!!"

Well, at the inauguration, several Protest Warriors rightfully got their asses kicked for being such thuggish morons. 

Anyhow, the entire experiment you linked to, ignores the fact that NO STUDENT or POLITICAL AFFILIATION is allowed to blanket a school in propaganda if it begins to interfere with school operation. When I was in H.S. I did the same thing, but with liberal messages. They were promptly taken down. I didn't whine about it like these "noble" Protest Warriors either. I understood that it wasn't allow.

The case, (Tinker v. Des Moines), which they refer too, allows the school to deliberate on a case by case basis. It isn't a broad mandate for free expression. Schools still have rules, you just can't post anything you want all over school grounds. This example you've provided is just another case of the sensationalist Protest Warriors trying to provoke a response that fits their agenda.

From the majority opinion in the case:
"The Court has repeatedly emphasized the need for affirming the comprehensive authority of the States and of school officials, consistent with fundamental constitutional safeguards, to prescribe and control conduct in the schools."

...

"Certainly where there is no finding and no showing that engaging in the forbidden conduct would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school," the prohibition cannot be sustained . . ."

In other words, as I mentioned above, it's up to the school. *However*, they cannot prohibit the speech, unless it's deemed to interfere with "the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school", the Protest Warriors actions did just that, as counter-protests began to form, and confrontations began between students, and the flyers were removed.

mrC

[Shape D.]

http://hq.protestwarrior.com/?page=/featured/PHS/PHS.php

Hey that kids a terrorist too.

[walls83]

It doesn't bother me that he didn't stand for the flag.  That's his right.  but those kids need some disciplined I don't mean literally shoving the flag up his butt.  But how much does the teacher need to yell and tell them to be quite(while their laughing at him thinking ya whats he going to do we will sue his ass).  Kids have it way to easy these days.  "LOOK MOM THE TEACHER PULLED A CHAIR OUT FROM UNDER ME!"  I'm being abused.  BLAH BLAH BLAH.  We got spanked in my schools growing up.  I have no sympathy for that kid.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

We got spanked in my schools growing up.  I have no sympathy for that kid.

Do you have kids? If so, do you support the idea of public H.S. teachers spanking them?

mrC

[ChadTower]

I did too, but it wasn't public school and it wasn't in the US, so it's an invalid comparison.

[walls83]

They couldn't just spank us whenever they wanted to.

[ChadTower]

I don't remember ever getting hit for misbehaviour, but I was probably hit for being left handed every school day from ages 3-5 or 6.

[missioncontrol]

We got spanked in my schools growing up.

[ChadTower]

First teacher that slaps my son for being lefthanded gets carried out on a stretcher after I get there.  I guarantee you that.  I HATED school and teachers and everything to do with it because of that.

[RetroJames]

http://hq.protestwarrior.com/?page=/featured/PHS/PHS.php

Smart kid to be sure, but what was his point?