Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[Crazy Cooter]

There's no need to twist the knife... isn't there a high road to be taken somewhere?

Boycotting everything to do with Foley is the high road.

[KevSteele]

There's no need to twist the knife... isn't there a high road to be taken somewhere?

Boycotting everything to do with Foley is the high road.

[SirPoonga]

www.aarongiles.com

[MonitorGuru]

Jumping into shark infested waters here, but I can't let this post go un-replied to:

I got my local CostCo to remove an Arcade Legends machine.

[Shape D.]

Jumping into shark infested waters here, but I can't let this post go un-replied to:

I got my local CostCo to remove an Arcade Legends machine.  I'm currently working on contacting "higher up" in that company to get them removed completely (or at least have no more orders placed).

I'm concerned here. Boycotting is one thing, even creating a boycott web site listing factual information is acceptable.

Without *complete details* of what "got my local CostCo to remove"... means, I think the above statement implies a line has been crossed and vigilante actions such as this are NO BETTER than what DF was doing to "competetors".

Someone's active "working on contacting 'higher up' ... to get them removed" implies UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT OF TRADE. Exactly what DF was attempting to do himself.

Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.   Boycott fine.  Comments and actions eluded to by similar comments to the above, I believe legally, cross the line from an individual consumers freedom of choice and illegal trade disruption. 

Fight fair... don't fight his way or you may just find yourself thrown into a lawsuit yourself, and further disruption to your gaming platform through legal issues.

If Walmart was selling something you didn't think they should be selling say "Home Abortion Kits". Would you boycot Walmart, or talk to them to try to get them to stop selling them.  Personally I would try to get them to stop selling them, and if they refused then I would boycot Walmart.

Sweet I totally just compared ultracade cabnets to home abortion kits.

[Crazy Cooter]

CostCo is a "membership" based retailer.  They encourage the members to give them feedback on the products they stock, what we would like to see and what we don't.  I spoke with the local store manager and he "suspended" the sale of the item in his store.  It never came back, so I'm assuming he did some research on what was happening.  I'm currently putting together a package to present to them (including all of Foley's statements/letters).  It's up to them to decide what they stock, but it's up to us to encourage them to use ethical manufacturers.  I'm not going to lie or threaten to cancel my membership (I like it too much).  I'm just going to present what information I have and give them the avenues (email/web sites) to pursue any further details they may need on their own.  I highly doubt they'll pull the corporate plug purely based on my points.  But I fully intend to "plant a seed" for them to think about.

FWIW: CostCo rules.  They have an incredible return policy on electronics.  If you are ever dissatisfied, bring it back.  I asked them about a digicam I bought and the guy said if 5 years from now I no longer like it, I can bring it back and exchange it for full credit.  He was quick to add that they discourage that kind of behaivior, but said that's how dedicated they are to ensure their members are happy.  And no, I'm not going to return it.

[cholin]

I love costco.  They have great prices on most of the things they sell because the way its run -- like a warehouse.  Let me tell you, I bought some steaks there and they were honestly the best steaks Ive ever had, not that this has anything to do with arcade machines

[Goz]

Comparing Ultracade to home abortion kits... hahaha 

Man I just shot coke out of my nose.

-Goz

[RayB]

Where can I get a home abortion kit?
(ya never know!) 

[JoyMonkey]

Comparing Ultracade to home abortion kits... hahaha 

Man I just shot coke out of my nose.

-Goz

Never heard of people shooting coke out of their noses.

[rchadd]

what the hell would costco care about recent issues regards ultracade and mame???

why get the arcade legends machine removed? its 100% legal product right?

I figure you just got labelled as being a "nutty customer"

maybe it would be better to get stores to boycott goods that are made with exploited child labor in the far east for pennies.

[Crazy Cooter]

They care about what their members think about the products they carry.  If you see they sweat of toddlers there, let them know.  They'll do something about it.

[BackAgain]

CrazyCooter has a valid point.

[DrewKaree]

CrazyCooter has a valid point.  I think you guys must not shop at Costco.  They are built on customer service, and they want your feedback on ANYTHING they carry in their store.

Why bother comparing Ultracade to the home abortion kit?  You don't have to compare it to anything.  If you don't like Ultracade, Costco wants to know why.  If it is a big enough problem (and apparently it is) then they will stop carrying it.

I'd rephrase that.  It sounds as if you wish to boycott CostCo.  It'd sound better if you changed "I think you guys must not shop at CostCo" to "It sounds as if you don't shop at CostCo or know their policies".

Just a thought.

[IntruderAlert]

Thanks for clearing that up.
I was a bit confused as well.. but now I get it 

[Goz]

I made a trip today on my lunch hour to the local Dave & Busters for a pint and some games. I was really surprised when I came accross 2 rows of redemption / arcade games made by Ultracade. On top of the redemption / arcade games there was 4 of the std Ultracade 86 game craptacular cabs.

I thought about talking to management and telling them about how Foley is a duche bag, but opted for the high road. Karma is a boom-a-rang and he will be screwed when it comes arround.

-Goz

[IntruderAlert]

http://www.aarongiles.com/index.html

Aaron Giles' Home Page
March 16, 2005

Some basic answers

A lot of the worrying and questions on the previous post are silly. I'm closing down comments on that for now.

Answers to the obvious stuff:

1. You can discuss MAME all you want without putting a (tm) next to it. You'll notice that you don't have to put a (tm) next to Windows if you talk about it on a message board, now do you?

2. If you currently sell ROMs or ROM distribution services, you're already breaking the law. There is nothing new about the trademark apart from the fact that you can't use the name "MAME" to advertise your illegal services.

3. There is currently discussion going on around the MAME license. Getting the devs to agree on something like this is like herding cats, so it will take a while for some clarity to prevail there.

That's it for now. Go about your lives. Stop the hand wringing over what this all means. When official information becomes available, a lot of this will be made clear. Unfortunately this stuff takes time. Be patient.

[Crazy Cooter]

If anyone is wondering what Ultracade charges for ROM's (as a possible indicator for Foley's iROM service), I point you to this ebay posting:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6156986509&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

This is a BRAND NEW ULTRACADE JUNGLE KING UPGRADE.  Add this all time favorite to your "Ultimate Arcade" machine!

Buy it now price is... $399.00!
He said before he would charge under $10, I guess we could safely assume he'll be somewhere between $10 & $300 for each title.

[SirPeale]

You can't go by what that auction is asking.  They *routinely* overprice everything they put on eBay.

They're located in a very high disposable income area of CT, and since the guy that owns the store can actually get the insane prices he's asking, he's not going to lower them anytime soon.  I was trying to work out a deal to get some empties and parts when one of his workers was trying to clear out one of his warehouses.  At first he was being decent with his prices, but then he saw that stuff was flying out, he changed his tune.  Suddenly empty Pac Man cabs were worth $300.

[Chris]

Buy it now price is... $399.00!
He said before he would charge under $10, I guess we could safely assume he'll be somewhere between $10 & $300 for each title.

Apples and oranges. First, Ultracade isn't the seller here.  Second, he's selling Jungle King with a Commercial Use license, not a home use license.

HOWEVER... how can Ultracade legally sell a Jungle King pack at all?  Wasn't Jungle King pulled in favor of Jungle Hunt because of a lawsuit from the Tarzan copyright holders?

--Chris

[Crazy Cooter]

You can't go by what that auction is asking. They *routinely* overprice everything they put on eBay.

I was wondering what was up, I can pick up the whole game for $400.

[ValamirCleaver]

Well it looks like that though he didn't get the MAME(TM) he was supposedly able to licence VP. Here's the relevant thread at VPF: VP has been sold? Let's hope for the best. I would suggest that anyone that David Foley attempted to shake down for kickbacks or had e-bay auction wrongly pulled post your personal firsthand experiences at VPF.

Tom

[DrewKaree]

I'm wondering if there's some way to start a class-action suit against him since he's developing an obvious pattern of trying to shake down anyone he sets his sights on about whatever product he thinks he can make a fast quick buck off of.

He clearly has no interest in "preserving" or "saving" anything, as his motives are clearly making a profit from someone else's work that might not have sufficiently protected their work.  While there's no law against THAT, and I'd agree with THAT, he's going beyond reasonable-ness and stopping the sales of items he has no current legal right to stop. 

Poetic justice would have this lunkhead selling something he has no right to sell, and someone slaps such a huge suit on him that it forces him to go bankrupt.

[M3talhead]

Holy Thread-Resurrection Batman! 

[Bones]

Yeah but now the thread has been moved to EE so it will only attract the gutter level individuals of byoac.

Hey, look at this. My prediction has already to come true. 

[Tiger-Heli]

Yeah but now the thread has been moved to EE so it will only attract the gutter level individuals of byoac.

Hey, look at this. My prediction has already to come true. 

I read through the 6-page thread over at VPF.

On the surface, DaveyR is saying that the tables and VP will still be available in the usual places and that he is only licensing the use of VP and certain tables.

Of course, he is also putting his spin on the MAME trademark issue, so it's hard to take any of his comments at face value.

I have also been on VP (but not recently) long enough to remember some of the key players in the community, among them Destruk, PacDude, and Mr. Hyde and it appears that ALL of them are pretty solidly against the idea, which you can read a lot into.

[lokki]

don't mean to defend foley but the short of it is this

1) He licencesed VP from the developers (The developer of VP agreed to this)
(He does not own VP he has the right to use it commercially.)

2) He is offering to pay designers of VP tables for use of their Tables.
3) He has licensed the rights for some commercial pinball tables
4) Not all Table designers want to license their tables.

As far as I can tell he has not threatened anyone, no auctions have been removed.


edit numbering

[Tiger-Heli]

5)  There is a big rift in the VP Community between people who want to cash in on their hard work with Ultracade, people who want nothing to do with him, and people who did 10% of the work on a table someone else submitted and wonder what their cut of the royalty is.  (Of course there was a rift three or so years ago over proprietary/locked tables and open source tables, so this isn't the first time).

[Harry Potter]

Is Dave sticking his fingers into someone else's pie again?

[Crazy Cooter]

I posted over there.

[KevSteele]

So go file a lawsuit already.

[Crazy Cooter]

Loss of sales.

[KevSteele]

I just don't see the loss of sales to anyone involved amounting to enough to be worth going to court over (even adding everyone who got auctions yanked into a class-action suit)

As much as I'd love to see Foley have to face some consequences to his illegal grab of MAME and the MAME logo, I just don't see it happening. Going to court in this case just doesn't make good business sense (it'll cost far more than you could ever hope to recover)

Kevin

[Crazy Cooter]

It's a civil proceeding.  You don't have to have a lawyer.

This is pretty cut-n-dry.  If you have sales records, you have a case.  It's just a matter of finding out if you can do it in your state or his.  "Crimes" via the internet I believe are filed where the offense occured, not where they originated.  I think this too was passed just for cases like this.  Being across state lines makes it a bigger deal.

I know for judgements regarding late payments after you quit a job they give 150% of the wage to "penalize" the offender (in MN).  I don't know how it works for cases like this.  I've sat with several lawyers in my time and they always will "hear your case" and give you an idea if they should help you or if you could do it yourself.  I'm only afraid of them when they're not sitting at my table.

[Tiger-Heli]

CC,

You need to respond to Editor's comments in the VPF thread.

Off-Topic -

As much as I hate to admit it, UC's pinball controller looks pretty cool:
http://www.hyperware.com/pub/pl/flipper.jpg

[Goz]

I read the other day that a "Wrongful birth" lawsuit was filed because a woman had a healthy baby born because the mother didn't know she was pregnant. I thought it was far fetched, but maybe Mr. Foleys parents should do the same. 

[Tiger-Heli]

I read the other day that a "Wrongful birth" lawsuit was filed because a woman had a healthy baby born because the mother didn't know she was pregnant. I thought it was far fetched, but maybe Mr. Foleys parents should do the same. 

Typically, wrongful birth lawsuits occur when the mother tries to have an abortion and the baby survives.

[Goz]

I read the other day that a "Wrongful birth" lawsuit was filed because a woman had a healthy baby born because the mother didn't know she was pregnant. I thought it was far fetched, but maybe Mr. Foleys parents should do the same. 

Typically, wrongful birth lawsuits occur when the mother tries to have an abortion and the baby survives.

Not an attempt to derail but here's the article. The original comment is a joke BTW.

[arcader_1984]

Can I ask what all the hoopla is all about, the UC hard drive is nothing difficult at all to figure out, its simply masking its FAT table to hide the files, all that was needed was a writing a very simple sector scanner to locate the beginning and end of each of the files (which for whatever reason don't start until sector 38535672 and are less then 100mb's total in that 40gb hd, I extracted out 5 executable files - a 64K file called jver.exe, then a 934K and 3 large files - 15mb's, 20mb's and 26mb's.    They are located in the EXE_DIR and then in the WAV_DIR are all of the wav files for the sound effects for the menu (I found 16 seperate wav files).

Oh and BTW - in the beginning of the drive is the darnedest thing - what appears to be a Fat12 floppy image in the beginning of the HD (or at least on first pass, that's what it looks like) with the jboot (I wonder if it is the same as Scott Bradford's Jdyne Technologies Jboot protection software), then some other files like jtpboot and sappboot, I also found sapphire drivers load scripting commands.

Now, I haven't gotten all of the EXE's running  - yet, but an ascii sector view of the 15mb exe turned up something interesting... the Atari games appear to actually be from Atari Arcade Hits Vol 1 and Vol2 as I found ascii text referring to them and (c) Infogrames, so that's rather interesting.   I will say this much, I see no signs whatsoever of MAME of any kind or iteration at all.   Now jboot (if it is in fact the same as the jdyne version and the Atari arcade hits - they all use Win32 API's and DirectX, so the next question to be answered is, does the joshua mbr bootloader run some kind of DOS with win32 APIs and then, what about Directx?    Drive loads amazingly fast, so its rather interesting to see in more detail just what these remaining exe's actually are and what they are up to.

Please DO NOT email me to ask for the files, this was simply an exercise of fun to see what was on the drive, I've given pretty much everything needed to know about the drive and what you'd have to do on your own to access its contents, and that is all I can give anyone is information, the code from the drive is not something that can or will be released.   I know that no one here seems to be a fan of ultracade (the signature pic's of poo on the ultracade equipment kind of gives it away) but in all fairness, to post the drives contents publicly would be far worse then I think anything that ultracade may have done against the mame groups.


Arcade On !

[Kremmit]

Holy Thread-Resurrection Batman!