Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[Goz]

is this the longest thread there has been on BYOAC?

I think it's safe to say yes

[JoyMonkey]

Has anyone been in touch with StarRoms?

You know, if StarRoms had some support they could probably acquire more licenses and make iRoms obsolete even before it's launched. If the community is going to donate anything financially, I think we should see if StarRoms could do with anything.

iRoms isn't getting EXCLUSIVE rights to sell roms is it?

[daywane]

??
I do not under stand what you are saying.
OK , I can go and download some Roms from them and pay them for it.
But pledge $$$ to them ? I don't get it.
I must be missunderstanding your post

[JoyMonkey]

My understanding of it is;
Ultracade is trying to monopolize legal rom distribution with iRoms.
Helping a community-friendly competitor, such as StarRoms can only hurt iRoms.

People have talked about donating money to help 'the cause', but it's unclear how money would be helpful in this situation.
The only way I can see is to help StarRoms, financially or otherwise, to acquire licensing from more game companies. So they'll have a service offering the same product as iRoms (maybe even more) that is backed by the emulation community.

Supporting iRoms sole competitor can only be good.

[rchadd]

Has anyone been in touch with StarRoms?

You know, if StarRoms had some support they could probably acquire more licenses and make iRoms obsolete even before it's launched. If the community is going to donate anything financially, I think we should see if StarRoms could do with anything.

iRoms isn't getting EXCLUSIVE rights to sell roms is it?

It sounds like DF is looking to put StarRoms out of business. I wonder what their take is on all this. Do they have an exclusive licencing agreement with Atari?

[JoyMonkey]

Has anyone been in touch with StarRoms?

You know, if StarRoms had some support they could probably acquire more licenses and make iRoms obsolete even before it's launched. If the community is going to donate anything financially, I think we should see if StarRoms could do with anything.

iRoms isn't getting EXCLUSIVE rights to sell roms is it?

It sounds like DF is looking to put StarRoms out of business. I wonder what their take is on all this. Do they have an exclusive licencing agreement with Atari?

As far as I can tell, none of this legal rom licensing is exclusive to any one company. Both Ultracade and StarRoms offer Atari roms.

[IntruderAlert]

Who does he think is his target market?

His target market is the people that already spent the $3000+ to get an Ultracade machine.  As you'll need his machine to run roms purchased from iRoms.

Actually.. the target market with iROMs is NOT the people who spent $3000+ on an Ultracade machine

Ultracade is targeted primarily at the coin-op industry where machines will be used to make a profit.

iROMs is for the consumer ONLY and will not be allowed on a coin-op machine
iROMs will not even work on an Ultracade machine at all.
So you will not need a $3000+ Ultracade machine to run iROMs

iROMs will be targeted at PCs , MACs , GP32s , and I predict Mobile Phones in the future

read this quote again from Kevin's site:

"Licenses will be for consumer, end user use only, no resale of roms, no public performance of ROMs, etc etc. We'll start with PC and MAC platforms, and then look at some of the handhelds such as GP32."

In order to protect this service, David Foley is planning an all-out assault on pirate ROM sites. As he puts it:

"We'll have the only legal means to get hundreds of games, AND, we will shut down every pirate site in the coming year. If people want them legally, they'll get them from us."

http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#

[rchadd]

look what i found when browsing happ's new products

http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/96063200.htm

look at the copyright text on the PCB...UltraCade!!!

[daywane]

I prefer to give my $$$ for a lawyer for the Mame Dev's to battle in court.
I allready buy Roms from star Roms
How will I Roms be more legal than every one Else's. Because he so said so?

[JoyMonkey]

I prefer to give my $$$ for a lawyer for the Mame Dev's to battle in court.
I allready buy Roms from star Roms
How will I Roms be more legal than every one Else's. Because he so said so?

Is not an issue of being 'more legal' - why should the public be forced to buy all their roms from iRoms so an as$hole like Dave Foley can turn a profit?
At the moment, StarRoms is the only other option for purchasing legal roms but their selection is limited to a handful of Atari games.
I'm saying we should try to help them to expand their library somehow. StarRoms is a community friendly company and has even donated money to the Mame Devs in the past.

[SirPoonga]

What I don't understand is this:
- MAME supports the EXACT arcade game.
- Foley's ROM's won't work with MAME.
- Foley can't be using the EXACT game then.

[Crazy Cooter]

But then it's not the same ROM...

I don't see how encrypting the "old" makes the original "old" illegal.  Foley keeps saying that the original ROM's are illegal, but it's never been to court.  He has zero authority over the old ROM's.  That's my point about who is his target market.  The way I see it, is there are two groups:

1- People who want the EXACT game they used to play.
2- People who want to play something close.

For group #1, Foley will never sell anything.  He ticked them all off already and they already have an emu and the ROM's.  Unless Foley goes to their house and destroys their computer and any CD's they have, he has no market here.  Besides, "his laws" don't apply in other countries.  Any purchases in the US from this group will be through starroms.  Whatever starroms doesn't carry will be obtained over the internet.

For group #2, a trip to bestbuy or anyplace software is sold will show waaaay better prices.  I've seen cd's of old titles for $5 that had 100+ games on it.  His prices can't compete with that.

Who is left?

What Foley is trying to do is this:
He will sell the ROM's under the pretense that he owns the rights to do so (just like he did with Namcos stuff in his Ultracade).  If he is challenged by a TRUE owner of the game rights, he will take the ROM down or offer some deal (like he is doing with the MAME dev's).  Meanwhile he profits on work that has no owner because he says he owns them.  He has no more right than any of us to sell 90+% of the games MAME supports.

Somebody just needs to get this a-wipe in court.  He has no legal standing on what he is doing.  He won't need to prove ownership until challenged, so I say let's challenge him.  If he took down your auctions or whatever, sue him.  Other than pissing me off, he hasn't "done" anything to me other than limit my choices for stuff to buy on ebay etc.  I don't have much legal standing to sue him, but some of you other guys do.  So if you can, please do.

His past actions speak volumes for what this guy thinks he can do.  It's up to all of us to run him out of business.  Don't buy anything relating to him and send gripe letters to the distributors carrying his products.  Police his stuff like he does Ebay.  I've already notified Namco about several distributors of his Ultracade machines advertising Namco games (which Namco already had their lawyers "discuss" with Foley once before).  I've stood next to an Arcade Legends in a store and spoke with the customers there and the management and the machine is no longer for sale at that location.  If you see an opportunity, take it.  If you don't, it's obvious where this is heading.  It's easy to talk, but talking won't stop him from polluting this hobby.

So everyone spend 10 minutes a day to contact people/police his sales/whatever.

[/rant]

Arcade Legends and Ultracade blow!
Support www.starroms.com

[GGKoul]

What DF is trying to trademark is only a word and a logo.

[Crazy Cooter]

But foley wants to shut it all down.  He doesn't care whether he actually owns the rights or not.  He doesn't have any rights to the MAME name/software/ or art but look at how many auctions he has cancelled because he SAYS he does.  It's going to be the same thing with ROM's.  He'll be getting in touch with each ISP and tell them he owns the rights.  Then whatever site it is will be taken down.  Just like the auctions currently are on ebay.

Meanwhile, he'll try and sell them all.  Just ask Namco.

[GGKoul]

But foley wants to shut it all down.

[Crazy Cooter]

That's why I wonder who he thinks his market is.  The more sites he shuts down, the more auctions he has pulled, the harder he pushes... the greater the backlash.

Foley has no ethics when it comes to trying to get his way.  That is proven by his track record.

[rchadd]

the mame roms will just go onto bittorrent network or MIRC- how the hell does he think he would stop that? is he going to go after each individual?

the more i think of this, i figure that it is desperate actions from somebody who's company is going down the pan...

is it possible to review his company accounts for last few years? is that information publicly available in the US?

[Crazy Cooter]

the more i think of this, i figure that it is desperate actions from somebody who's company is going down the pan...

I agree.  It wouldn't be the first time Ultracade went in the tank. 

[daywane]

I have contacted any one selling his junk and informed them Thank Dave Foley why no one will bid on any product made from him. I also told them they have illegal Roms on the machine
No one has clearly stated why his Roms are legal and mine are not.
most of the Roms out there are abounded. who really owns them?

[RayB]

most of the Roms out there are ABANDONED. who really owns them?

Well, that's already been discussed to death... The roms anyone cares about (ie: GOOD games) still have clear owners. Atari, Midway, Williams, Capcom, Taito, SNK, etc... 

There are only a few gray-area ones. Like Universal games? No one has come out with a Universal classics collection, but I do know a new Mr. Do games was released on the SNES in mid-90's, so that license must belong to some company somewhere...

Berzerk and Frenzy have never been re-released either, but I do know Mr Stern still owns the rights to those (I emailed and asked about that a couple years ago).

It's pretty rare when a company goes out of business, that their assets and intellectual properties don't get sold off to someone else.

[GGKoul]

the mame roms will just go onto bittorrent network or MIRC- how the hell does he think he would stop that? is he going to go after each individual?

They are already there...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

the mame roms will just go onto bittorrent network or MIRC- how the hell does he think he would stop that? is he going to go after each individual?

They are already there...

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if the heat (ie: legal challenges on rom ownership) gets to be too much for MAME developers to work through (which wouldn't be a lot of heat, mind you. They *are* doing this for free, so I can't see them taking *any* personal risk), there would be no further development of MAME. No games added, no drivers updated. That, to me, is the biggest possible tragedy of this whole debacle.

That Foley *can't* stop roms from being distributed on bittorrent, et al. isn't as important as the possibility of him stopping further development of MAME altogether.

With each new MAME release, I look forward to rediscovering something. Some old, obscure, lost memory...or something new, a game I'd had never had the chance to encounter before. If the MAME team were to give up, in lieu of constantly spending their time defending themselves (even if we supported them w/ a "MAME Defense Fund", they'd still have to spend inordinate amounts of time filing legal papers)...the journey stops.

Yes, I KNOW there are already THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of games to choose from, even were development to stop TODAY. However, to me, MAME has always been about the journey of rediscovery. Were it to stop, I feel a little bit of that magic dies.

If you don't think this can happen, think again. Retro-gaming is FAST becoming a huge commerical fad. There is an Ultracade at WALMART for christsakes, and besides that, you can get those 12-in-1 gaming joysticks by the buttload there. StarRoms catalog of ROMS is dwindling, instead of growing larger, due to licensing conflicts with Atari, as Atari works to put out even more of their own "classic collections." How long before everyone is following suit?

Are there members of the community that are willing and/or able to pick up development on MAME and take it "underground", should Nicolas back off? Or is this emulator on borrowed time?

Or should we work even harder to shut Foley down and make him regret taking the abhorrent, ethically challenged position he has taken against the MAME development team and the retro-gaming community? At what point do we, as a group, take action against Foley? I'm tired of waiting to see what he does...to me, it's obvious he doesn't care about any of the things we hold dear here at the BYOAC forum!!

Basically, I'm asking for a summation of where we're at in this fight. What should we expect going forward, and what do we plan to do about it should we decide to be proactive in our defense of an emulator, and a community we have all grown to love.




mrC

[GGKoul]

You are forgetting.. when the MAME team does a ROM dump.  They are doing it from the actual board.  So them doing a ROM dump is OK because they actually own the board that they are dumping.

So emulating a ROM you own is legally OK for the MAME team.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

So emulating a ROM you own is legally OK for the MAME team.

Well, if they are forced to defend this...I can imagine it holding up in a licensing battle. Especially given the fact that their emulator software is freely, and widely, distributed.

BLEEM, for example, was one company (Sony) against one development group (BLEEM). Once that case was over, BLEEM's fight was over. Plus, it was worth it for BLEEM to fight, as they were selling a commercial product, and they stood to make a profit (I believe). If roms licenses become a hot commodity, there will be *many* license holders against *one* development group (MAME). I can't imagine MAME devs fighting against any company, let alone many of them, for the right to distribute FREE software, based on their FREE time?!

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC

[IntruderAlert]

Here are the results from some relevant polls on Kevin's Retroblast site:

[IntruderAlert]

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC

...sounds like the start of a great song..  lol

[Santoro]

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

MrC, I agree again!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC

...sounds like the start of a great song..  lol

HEHE...Yeah, it's called, "It's The End Of Emulation As We Know It (And It's Not Time!!)"...

mrC

[JoyMonkey]

I think the key is to figure out how to help StarRoms get more ROMs.  I have bought my ROMS from them, what else can we do?  Would price increases help get more licensing deals? Does anyone know if they are represented here?

Yeah! This was the point I was trying to make earlier- we NEED to help StarRoms become more successful and overshadow iRoms. I'm still not sure how we'd do this, hopefully someone from StarRoms will hear the anti-iRoms war cry and let is know what we should do.

[IntruderAlert]

Can't find the answer you're looking for? Send email to support@starroms.com or we can be reached by telephone at 866-401-9936.

You can contact StarROMs via email at the following addresses:
Feedback:   feedback@starroms.com
Customer Support:   support@starroms.com
Legal & Copyrights:   legal@starroms.com
General Inquiry:   info@starroms.com

StarROMs is a Delaware Corporation with offices in Ohio and Vermont. We can be reached by mail at either of the following addresses:

    StarROMs, Inc.
    14155 Perfect Road
    Sunbury, OH 43074
    U.S.A.

    StarROMs, Inc.
    P.O. Box 12
    Taftsville, VT 05073
    U.S.A.

Thank you for supporting StarROMs.

[JoyMonkey]

I emailed them yesterday, but I don't want to bombard them. I know that KevSteele has also tried to contact them recently.

[IntruderAlert]

which address did you use?

[JoyMonkey]

which address did you use?

info@starroms info@starroms.com

[Dexter]

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC

The MAME site points out that the purpose of the emulator is to preserve the hardware, playing the games is a nice side effect (I know, I know). While not watertight this has been the official standpoint since as long as I'm a user (i.e. since mame 030). While downloading the roms may be illegal, as long as they own one original board and the emulator is original code by the mamedevs I don't see how they could be liable. They cannot be held responsible for misuse by others in the community.

[IntruderAlert]

which address did you use?

info@starroms

you need to add a ".com" 

[Santoro]

The MAME site points out that the purpose of the emulator is to preserve the hardware, playing the games is a nice side effect (I know, I know). While not watertight this has been the official standpoint since as long as I'm a user (i.e. since mame 030). While downloading the roms may be illegal, as long as they own one original board and the emulator is original code by the mamedevs I don't see how they could be liable. They cannot be held responsible for misuse by others in the community.

Yes, just like Napster had legitimate uses.

[Dexter]

Thing is, the DVD writer in my PC, under my TV and cd burner etc. are accepted to be used 90%+ of the time for non-legit reasons, should they be banned too? The Mamedevs are careful to keep newer games disabled in their builds until 2 or 3 years after their release, ensuring no serious loss of revenue for the gamemakers, whereas filesharing software does cause a major hit to music and movie studios on a zero day ongoing basis. Given the mindful actions of the mamedevs, misuse by others will not cause the kind of financial loss that might bring about lawsuits. As long as everybody keeps on track with their heads down, while making life difficult for this idiot, things should be ok in the long run.

[RayB]

Human beings should no longer reproduce, because your offspring might be used for illegal activities when they grow up!

[GGKoul]

WOW!!!

Look at the prices of the Ultracade Game Packs on the bottom of the page...

http://www.thepinballstore.com/ultracade.html

[mr.Curmudgeon]

WOW!!!

Look at the prices of the Ultracade Game Packs on the bottom of the page...

http://www.thepinballstore.com/ultracade.html

From that above link:

"Availability on all games contained on Ultracade Technology products changes almost daily, so please give us a call to find out all the latest updates on this incredible machine." (emphasis mine)

Gee...wonder why?

mrC