Mame - Good or Bad for the Arcade Biz ?

[fredster]

Why Jamma?

Now that you know it's just a standard wiring harness, the reason was simple.  Back in '85 and '86 the arcade business was taking a nose dive.  The early machines were wonderful proprietary creations that were unique.  To work on a Midway, you had to train on Midway, or Atari, or whatever. You had to buy parts like you do for old cars.

Jamma made a standardized platform when the cab building business went to crap.  Instead of paying $2000 + for a new game, you could take an old one and convert it for less than $1000.  It was a move necessary to sustain the Arcade business.

Lots of classics bit the dust. They made their money and they were spent. Young punk kids for some reason wanted new games. Go figure.

I discovered Mame and this site by looking for schematics on PCB's.  I litterally freaked out when I booted MsPac. I started yelling and screaming. I just couldn't believe how cool it was.

Mame has done as much to DESTROY the arcade business as it has to preserve it IMO. I notice that lots of old games have been made into 4 in 1's, 9 in 1's, etc.  People can just build one instead of buying it. MsPac machines can be bought and sold for 1/2 of what they could just 3 years ago.  Some people now don't think they are worth fixing.  Some people have actually gotten out of the business.

[fredster]

I think Mame is very super cool. I think it's wonderful and I sit and just look at my mame machine as one of the greatest creations I have ever made.

But I think it's really BAD for the arcade business. Classic machines are worth less. People don't want to spend lots of money on repairs.  Cabs are tossed away and more people are getting out of the business.

Plus, arcade machine makers are going under. Maybe not directly by Mame, but it doesn't help when you can play old games for free.  Parts are worth less, harder to sell, etc.

What do you guys think?

[GGKoul]

Sure I love that I can play any game at anytime.  But MAME roms just don't play the same as the real arcade game.

[Paul Olson]

Mame has done as much to DESTROY the arcade business as it has to preserve it IMO.

I don't agree at all.  I think eBay caused prices to drop on old machines more than anything.  I don't remember the arcade business ever being about fixing up old machines.  It's always been about finding something that will make kids pump more quarters in.  Nowadays, Ms Pacman/Galaga reunion cabs will suck up more quarters than an old restored Ms Pacman.  I give MAME quite a bit of credit for the reunion cab even being made.

During the early 90's, I had all but stopped going to arcades.  I started using MAME in 97, and have since spent quite a bit of time and money at arcades.  I went to Tahoe last weekend with some friends.  The goal was to go clubbing, but we ended up spending a good deal of time in the arcade.  This was mostly due to my friends playing my cab (and partially due to really crappy service at Cabo Wabo), I wasn't even the one to suggest it.  Most of these people hadn't been in arcades since high school over 15 years ago.  We had a great time, and it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been reintroduced to arcade games thru MAME.

Paul

[Howard_Casto]

It's a silly point anyway......  20 year old games aren't in the arcades anymore.  Unless it's something special like pacman, game companies don't make money off of 20 year old games. 

Now if you'd say "The inclusion of games less than 5 years old in mame is hurting the arcade industry" then you would have a point.  But as a whole.... nah!!

Arcades are dying because game consoles are better (graphically... i won't touch that debate) and it's cheaper for game manufacturers to make console games than to make full fledged arcade machines. 

[SirPeale]

Arcades are dying because game consoles are better (graphically... i won't touch that debate) and it's cheaper for game manufacturers to make console games than to make full fledged arcade machines. 

I believe it's a combination of that, and that new arcade machines are simply too expensive to get a return on investment.  When you're charging $5,000 for a brand new game, you have to take in a lot of quarters to pay for that.  Quarters just won't work, so you have to charge *dollars*.  Who wants to pay a buck for a video game that will probably only last thirty seconds to a minute?

Gameplay is another matter.  Who wants to die in thirty seconds because you don't know how to play the game?  Another buck down the drain, until you learn the quirks of the game.

[D_Zoot]

I think the industry would be in the shape it's in without Mame ever existing...   The industry started dying long before Mame ever became what it is now.

The end of the arcade boom started in the 80's.  I think that most of the originality in the industry came very quickly and toward the mid 80's we stopped seeing new  and fresh ideas.  Games started becoming the same old thing with different graphics, how many different fighter games can you make before it gets stale?

Then came consoles with graphics that rivaled what you could see in the arcades.  Why spend your money at the arcade when mom and dad bought you a console for Christamas, and you could stay at home and play for free?

On top of that, we now tend to stay at home and do things.  Home theaters, home game rooms....  etc...   It's a trend to make your home  into everything you enjoy doing instead of just a place to sleep.

Every once and awhile some new and fresh idea turns up in the arcades,  DDR for example.  When that happens, we do see a small  surge in the arcade biz, but it doesn't last as the "newness" wears off and the "fresh Idea" becomes available for consoles.   My daughter is a perfect example of this.  When DDR hit the arcades, all she wanted to do was go to the mall to play it, all the time!   Now she has the DDR pad for her PS2 and hasn't asked to go to the mall since.   


There's more factors involved,  perceived entertainment value, economy issues, the stigma of what arcades are like....     But IMHO it's mostly a combination of industry comming up too fast and burning  out and competition with home consoles.


Regards,
D

[fredster]

Good points.  Console games killed the big billion dollar industry in '83.  But video games are still out there.

Golden Tee and big Gun games are still very popular because you can't get the same experience at home.  8 liners and betting games are the meat of the industry now. 

But the "arcade" business is more than just the mall arcades. It's the secondary collectors market.  That's where this is hitting the hardest.

My point about the Classic machines is now they are worth LESS. People who would have invested the time and the money to restore them aren't for the secondary and collectable market.  A good pacman machine would fetch about $600-$800 just a couple of years ago is hard pressed to go for $300.

The 4 in 1's have really taken that market. Why buy a game that plays only one for a house when you can buy one that plays 4 or 9 or 39 ?  Why buy a game when you can build one without special knowledge of electronics ?

I remember telling a guy at the auction about mame. His jaw dropped to the floor when I pointed one out in the mix.  It was a little cocktail cab that even had the fake intel sticker that says "mame inside".  He was really upset. A lot of these guys in the arcade business aren't really that computer savy, and they had no clue about the extent these machines have infiltrated the market.

There was a post in this forum or another talking about one found in a dump.  If they have reached life cycle and are now being tossed, that shows that Mame is getting pretty common.

It makes parts for old machines cheaper and less likely to be sold. 

New games, nah.  Mame Can't run them yet. But the professional arcade organizations are really looking at this as a problem to their bottom line.  Namco thinks it stifles their resale value.

[Paul Olson]

I don't see many Pacman cabs for sale, but Ms Pacman routinely sells for over $600 on eBay, and that is before shipping (which is usually in the $200-300 range).  I think most people have seen what they go for on eBay, then they expect to get the same price or less (minus shipping of course) if they go to a video game auction.

It makes parts for old machines cheaper and less likely to be sold.

Used part prices are rising fast, mostly because of MAME.  A year ago, a Star Wars yoke would sell on eBay for around $80.  Now I see them going for over $200.

As far as buying a Pacman for home, I think only a true collector would do that.  After 25 years, how often would you actually play it?  I don't know if I ever would.  I know I played it at least once when I first tried MAME (97 I think), but I don't remember playing it since.

Paul

[SirPoonga]

Mame has done as much to DESTROY the arcade business as it has to preserve it IMO. I notice that lots of old games have been made into 4 in 1's, 9 in 1's, etc.  People can just build one instead of buying it. MsPac machines can be bought and sold for 1/2 of what they could just 3 years ago.  Some people now don't think they are worth fixing.  Some people have actually gotten out of the business.

And you think this is because of mame?

The reason there are multiple game boards out there are because the games are old.  How else are you going ot sell them or make them interesting again?

Mame hasn't done anything to "destroy" the arcade business.  The arcade business has been dying in part because oyu can play games at home.  Look at today's arcades such as Jillians or Gameworks.  They don't do just games.  They have a bar, bowling alley, restuarant.  People don't go to arcades to just play games anymore.  You can do that at home.  People goto arcades to be social.    That's why arcades now have games like DDR, connected racing sims, fighters, hyperbowling, etccc.  they are more interactive with other players.  You will not see much for single player games at arcades anymore because they have turned into a social function.  So the classics, which are basically single player, do not work in that type of setup.

[tommy]

I dont agree, i think mame has killed the original arcade machine, no young person is going to buy a mrs pacman machine when he or she can get a mame machine with mrs pac and many others on it ,that alone is proof enough , if mame was not invented he would have to pick his fav game and buy it ,now he can have it all in one,not that thats bad, this day and age things progress we find better ways to do things

[FractalWalk]

how many different fighter games can you make before it gets stale?

1

[SirPoonga]

But mame isn't that popular yet.  Look at what midway and namco are doing.  They are re-releasing classics for console systems.  That's more proof to my opinion that classic arcade games don't belong in arcades these days because they aren't social games in nature.

Are you talking modern arcade game, because mame don
t allow that.  You obviously are talking about older games then.  Well, if a game is older than 3 years old it is likely going to go to the moth balls.  There aren't going to be enough people willing to go out of their house just to play that game.  So therefore mame isn't doing anything to destroy the arcade industry.  Again, it's the consoles that are doing that.  You can play today's console version of an arcade game at home.  Noticed when this trend started, in the early 90s when the NES came out.  When I was a kid I'd rather play TMNT2 at home than the arcade because it was there.
I still go to the arcade, but as I said, it's a social thing.  The games in the arcade are more interactive with other players than the older games.

[tommy]

You have a piont there sirpoonga,but thats why i bought an arcade cab id rather play an arcade version of the game then a console version,the graphics are better in my opinion,also the arcade makers have no restrictions on how there game could look,  console game makers have to conform to the consoles limitations 

[Gunstar Hero]

As far as MAME goes, I think me playing a game that hasn't been made for 5 years or more isn't exactly killing the arcade market. The fact that now old school parts are selling for bucks would be an indicator to me how MAME is keeping the enthusiast markey alive in fact!

Honestly, I blame ebay for dropping values. I think ebay revitalized the arcade secondary market. Games that were impossible to find were suddely available for a couple clicks and the price of shipping. Sure prices dropped, but that's BETTER for collectors I think. But bad for people who think that 20 year old monitor, circuit board and cabinet are wirth $1500.00... except to a sucker. 

ebay did kill a cool part of the arcade collecting hobby tho... board swapping. I had a buddy who had a couple old school dedicateds (Defender, Ms.Pac) and a generic JAMMA cab. He would go on a message board he was a member of, post what he was sick of playing at home, and other members would post games they were willing to swap for it. Then they'd swap via mail and play those until they were done and then do it all over again. I don't know how widespread that was, but I always thought it was cool. evilbay just killed that though. People suddenly knew there was "gold in them thar boards" and started hoarding them, and my friend sold off his cabs (on ebay) and that was that.

[FractalWalk]

no young person is going to buy a mrs pacman machine when he or she can get a mame machine with mrs pac and many others on it

No young person is going to buy a cab even if MAME didn't exist.

[RayB]

This debate could go on forever. There are no concrete statistics out there about costs and popularity changes and what influenced those changes. Some people say that the reason classic arcade machines sell for less on Ebay now is because the internet bubble of the late 90's burst and now you have less people squandering cash on "toys" like this. Others will argue it's because of MAME.

We also don't know how many units these classic collections for consoles would sell if MAME didn't exist. Maybe there would be a big difference, maybe a negligible difference. There's no way to know.

[tommy]

(No young person is going to buy a cab even if MAME didn't exist) you have mixed up my words i never stated this (fractalwalk)

[Gunstar Hero]

"no young person is going to buy a mrs pacman machine when he or she can get a mame machine with mrs pac and many others on it "

Your words Tommy.

MAME keeps a vital part of the arcade alive... it's history. How many classic cars are just GONE or hopelessly out of reach of car enthuiasts? Most of them. Thanks to MAME tho, we arcade enthusiasts can enjoy classic games forever. And don't forget, when MAME was created, Namco/Midway hadn't sold a Ms. Pac-Man machine in a decade.

Arcade games are expensive because they're meant to be sold to a handful of businesses that use them to make money. Home console games are cheaper because they're meant to be sold to millions of home users. MAME skillfully avoids stepping on their toes by not emulating new games and not being sold.

As far as MAME goes, I think me playing a game that hasn't been made for 5 years or more isn't exactly killing the arcade market. The fact that now old school parts are selling for bucks would be an indicator to me how MAME is keeping the enthusiast market alive in fact!

Honestly, I'd blame ebay for dropping values. I think ebay revitalized the arcade secondary market. Games that were impossible to find were suddely available for a couple clicks and the price of shipping. Sure prices dropped, but that's BETTER for collectors I think. But bad for people who think that 20 year old monitor, circuit board and cabinet are wirth $1500.00... except to a sucker. 

[SirPoonga]

You have a piont there sirpoonga,but thats why i bought an arcade cab id rather play an arcade version of the game then a console version,the graphics are better in my opinion,also the arcade makers have no restrictions on how there game could look,  console game makers have to conform to the consoles limitations 

If you like pretty pictures.  Gameplay is what makes games good.  There the console world rules as the games aren't meant to take your quarters away but to keep you in front of the TV.  You can get further in a game in it's console version than arcade version.

Arcade games do have to conform to the limits of modern technology, which is generally not that much better than the current console system at the time.  The graphics aren't that much different in my opinion.

Plus you are only one person.  You don't represent the majority.  The majority of the gamers out there will take the console version of a game over the arcade version.

It still doesn't mean mame destroyed the arcades.  The arcades were on their way down before mame even existed.  Reason I have already given.


edit:  point number 2 that I can't believe I didn't think of.  Go to any modern day arcade.  Tell me what percentage of the games in there are in mame?  Very small percentage.    Therefore mame is not influencing people in general to not goto the arcades.  People aren;t staying at home to play mame arcades games instead of going to the arcade to play them because the games in mame are generally not in the arcades.  Except maybe for  a few of the all time classics like ms pacman and frogger, the majority of the games in today's arcades can not currently be emulated in mame.  Look at how many people ask when Naomi is going to be emulated in mame everyday at mame.net....

gain, it;s the video game consoles and computer games that keep people form going to the arcade.  Manufactures usually bring out some type of arcade port to one of the platforms.   That's also why many of the games in the current arcades are games that are tough to play on consoles.  Most of the games in Gameworks or Jillians are lightgun games or full cockpit racing sims.  They have some hardware that just isn't going to give you the same gaming experience as playing the game at home.

I dont agree, i think mame has killed the original arcade machine, no young person is going to buy a mrs pacman machine when he or she can get a mame machine with mrs pac and many others on it ,that alone is proof enough , if mame was not invented he would have to pick his fav game and buy it

Back to your statement.  No, most people will not pay $500 for an arcade game when they can play it on mame.  But you are talking about buying it for home use.  If they could buy it for home use that would still keep them from going to the arcades.

[RayB]

I used to buy JAMMA boards. I had:

Super Dodge Ball
Rolling Thunder
Black Tiger
Smash TV
...

I honestly see no point to it anymore.

[tommy]

I find that condesending saying i like pretty pictures in the maner and context you said that      and im not pleased     im not debating game play over graphics i like to find a mixture of the both  togeather to make a great game, you just said some arcade games cant be emulated whitch backs up my comment on arcade games dont have to conform, and obviosly if it cant be emulated then arcade games start there own mark

[SirPoonga]

I find that condesending saying i like pretty pictures in the maner and context you said that      and im not pleased     im not debating game play over graphics i like to find a mixture of the both  togeather to make a great game, you just said some arcade games cant be emulated whitch backs up my comment on arcade games dont have to conform, and obviosly if it cant be emulated then arcade games start there own mark

Right, which proves my point that mame is not destroying the arcades since mame games aren't in the arcades.  This is what I was going after, you proving yourself wrong   I replied in such a way so you'd respond like you did so you'd realize that.

[RayB]

The problem with arcades today is that THEY NEED MORE COWBELL!

[Gunstar Hero]

It's not because the average computer can't handle the BEST arcade game... it's because emulation first of all requires you to make one computer act like another, and that takes alot of power. But honestly arcade hardware is pretty much console based now...

Tekken 5, Soul Calibur 2 - PS2 based System 256 board
Initial D, Guilty Gear X2, KOF Atomiswave - Dreamcast based Naomi/Hikaru/Atomiswave board
Outrun 2, Ghost Squad, HOTD3, Virtua Cop 3 - XBOX based Chihiro board
F-Zero AX - Gamecube based Triforce board (I love the name of this one!  )

... that's why you see such quick and accurate arcade conversions to home.

[tommy]

Sir p  you havent proved anything, it will be emulated when its possible whitch will kill the arcade again

[SirPoonga]

You obviously didn't read what I said.  Mame will not emulate anything current so mame can not kill the arcade.  What's in most arcades is what ISN'T in mame.  It doesn't matter if mame will emulate it.  If mame does emulate those games have been replaced in the arcades with selling ones.

So mame can not kill the arcades since it will not emulate was is in the arcades.  The mame devs have rules aobut what games go into mame.  One of those rules is the game can not be currently making money.  Hence why golden tee golf 3D-99 just got released in mame.  They've been making money until this point.  So obviously mame can not kill the golden tee golf market since those games are no longer being sold/supported.  Same with every other game i mame.  So how can it kill the arcade industry then?

[tommy]

Im not talking about whats making money at what point in time ,im talking about the general arcade experience, my idea of a good arcade is old games new games fun games ,so what if there hanging on to a few games till they die in the arcade ,they will probably make more money after its dead sellng the rights away , so if thats the case why not sell the rights away from the start and put it on mame to begin with ,this is the idea im talking about witch will soon kill the arcade   we have difernt points of view but its ok

[SirPoonga]

You have the wrong impression of how the gaming industry works then.

A company will hold on to rights as long as it can.  Who kows if the character or game idea becomes popular.  If it does it's a cash cow.  Look at pacman and namco for proof of that.

Plus I think your idea of the "arcade experience" is an outdated one.  It's what the experience was in the 80s but it isn't what it is now.  As I said arcades have become a more social place.  That's why the games are heavilly designed to be multiplayer.

No, a company does not make more money selling it's rights.  It's selling the rights because the game didn't work.   If it worked they'd keep the right and try to continue success on it.

Now you may wonder why my opinion is more correct, I have taken classes in a Game Development and Programming degree.

Actually, the gaming industry is starting to realize classic gaming does have a market, but not much of aprofitable one.  That's why there are all these re-releases and "museums" have been released.  but look what they have been released for.  They have been released for computer or console.  That's because classic will not survive in the arcade.  They already had their chance.

The game industry is in about a 3 year cycle.  A game gets old after about three years.  Then the company isn't making much money on it.   Of course the hits are a different story.  But there are by far more one hit wonders in the gaming industry than franchises.  Especially in arcade games.  The only franchise in arcade that I can think of are Time Crisis, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Virtua Fighter, DDR.

So, in short, ame has not or will never kill the arcade industry.  The arcade industry survives on was is current and popular.  mame does not have one of those, it doesn't have what is current.  Therefore it can never hurt the arcade industry.  If anything it has helped because it has helped people realize the classics are still good (hence all the rereleases).

That's it on this subject.  It's off topic for this thread and if you can't see how the arcade industry actually works then the points won;t make sense.

[tommy]

I think Mame is very super cool. I think it's wonderful and I sit and just look at my mame machine as one of the greatest creations I have ever made.

But I think it's really BAD for the arcade business. Classic machines are worth less. People don't want to spend lots of money on repairs.

[tommy]

What about streetfighter  and mk they havent come out with new arcade games, now its only consoles,  that was a popular series ,no more arcade games

[SirPoonga]

What about streetfighter  and mk they havent come out with new arcade games, now its only consoles,  that was a popular series ,no more arcade games

The key word is WAS.  Look at the trends.  MK and SF have come out on consoles.  That's where the money is in the gaming industry as a whole.  Note the arcade industry is a subset of the gaming industry.

[the3eyedblindman]

Whenever I ask friends to go to an arcade they say "Dude, its a waste of money, you have an arcade game at home that plays every game" I think that answers the question.

[pointdablame]

What about streetfighter  and mk they havent come out with new arcade games, now its only consoles,  that was a popular series ,no more arcade games

They have come to consoles because that's where the money is.  You assume that that is because MAME killed teh arcade industry, but that is NOT true.  MAME is still not widely known, and it was even less known when those games made the move to console only.

The arcade is dying not BECAUSE of MAME, but because people don't want to go there anymore.  If MAME didn't exist, the arcade industry would still be on life support.

[SirPoonga]

But I think it's really BAD for the arcade business. Classic machines are worth less. People don't want to spend lots of money on repairs.  Cabs are tossed away and more people are getting out of the business.

 
Not due to mame.  Plus many machines are going up in price the more rare they get.  How do you know they are worth less?  from what you see on ebay?

Plus, arcade machine makers are going under. Maybe not directly by Mame, but it doesn't help when you can play old games for free.  Parts are worth less, harder to sell, etc.

Nope, this is due to the popularity of consoles.  Mame has nothing to do with this. 

Mame isn't popular enough to cause a dent in the arcade industry.  Consoles are.

Plus what people think an arcade is has changed.  An arcade is more of a social place, hence most of the games are heavily into multiplayer.  but so is console, hence networking.

If anything mame has been good.  It's making the arcade bix realize people want to see classics.  Look at all the re-released, remakes, etc that have come out in the last 3 years for console systems. 

Even Namco is trying to get on the retro movement with the multicabs (like ms pacman and galaga).


One of the oddities that disproves all of this is DDR.  It is super popular in arcade and in consoles.  There's even a couple of good simulators  are there (DWI, Stepmania) yet it is still very popular in the arcades and consoles.

The only thing mame could affect is the sales of those remakes since mame doesn't emulate anything current. 


Someone compared mame to napster.   Simular arguements on both side could be made like in napster.  I think napster helped the music industry.  I tried alot of different music that I wouldn't have before.  I still bought the CDs if I liked it ecause in general all the songs from the albums weren't out there and most people can't rip a quality mp3 is their life depended on it. 

Plus I now think Metallica are hipocrates.  They helped the fight against napster when it was underground trading that got them popular.

Note how popular sites like iTunes are nowadays.  This is because people can now buy one song instead of a whole CD or only one song they liked on the CD.  If the music industry did soething like that years ago they wouldn't have had the problems with napster and kazaa like they do now.


I'm hoping starroms can get more companies to sell roms through them.  I don't like the fact that Atari took many off of star roms because they were going to sell collections (for ps2).  I don't have a ps2, what am I going to do.  Buying the roms is more economical to me than  buying a ps2 just for that collection.  I think Atari shot themzelves in the foot there.  I don't think mame would affect the selling of the ps2 collection, especially since mame isn't on the ps2.

[SirPoonga]

Whenever I ask friends to go to an arcade they say "Dude, its a waste of money, you have an arcade game at home that plays every game" I think that answers the question.

ok, now apply that to someone who doesn;t have an arcade cabinet.  Other than this small community most people don;t have one.  it isn;t cost worthy to build one versus going to the arcade.  You probably can atest to that.

I think people forget this is a small community.  Statements like that made by your friends are only occuring in a small percentage of the gamers that have an arcade cabinet.  not enough to make a dent in the arcade industry.

Look at me, I go to the arcade abit to be with friends and to play the racing sims.  There's nothing like Daytona 2 or that Ford sponsered linked sim.  The moving cockpits rule.  So I;d be the exact opposite of your friends so I;d prove the other point.

[tommy]

Thats exactly my point (point) money is to be made elsewhere because its so easily coped

[SirPoonga]

The arcade is dying not BECAUSE of MAME, but because people don't want to go there anymore.  If MAME didn't exist, the arcade industry would still be on life support.

Exactly, mame isn't popular enough to make a dent.  Consoles are.

[fredster]

Ebay is not the end all - buy all on arcade machines.

What amount of transactions are there on ebay for arcade machines .03%?

I buy and sell arcade machines all the time, and I have never sold one or bought one on ebay.

I sell parts, because people who buy on ebay have more money than sense

The secondary market is through auctions and RGVAC and store to store.

[tommy]

How can mame not hurt real arcade games when they copy all the games    this is my last post on this subject