1000 Reasons not to vote for GW

[fredster]

DynaGod,

You are right and you are wrong. Fundamentally, there is little difference in the popular vote and the electoral college results.  

IT did occur in the Hayes/Tilden election of 1876 and the Harrison/Cleveland election of 1888 due to the statistical disparity between vote totals in individual State elections and the national vote totals. This also occured in the 2000 presidential election, where Bush received fewer popular votes than Gore but received a majority of electoral votes.

The electorial college at least makes the candidates appeal to more states than they would have to without it.  I believe NY, CA, TX, and FLA would be the only states required if there were no electorial college.

But with it, they require more than just those segments of the country.  It would be particularly useful in a 3 party race.  Think about it.  The larger states still control most of the electorial votes.  CA is by far the largest.  

To see where the race is now - http://www.electoral-vote.com/

[Grasshopper]

Actually the 'electoral college' isn't just an American thing, we have a broadly similar system here in Britain but we use the term 'first past the post' instead of 'electoral college'.

However, regardless of the terminology used, it is still a deeply flawed system of voting.

My main objection is that it undermines the principle of one man one vote. Political parties tend to concentrate disproportionately on issues that matter to people living in so called 'swing states' because they are the people who determine the outcome of an election.

People who live in areas where one of the parties is very dominant end up feeling that their vote is wasted.

The system also tends to result in only two viable political parties and this reduces choice for the electorate.

It also encourages negative voting. A large section of the population inevitably find that the two main parties do not even remotely represent their point of view, so they are forced into the position of having to vote for the least bad party (from their perspective) instead of a party they actually want. This is turn can lead to voter apathy. I understand that about 50% of Americans don't bother to vote. I think this statistic speaks for itself.

The system can also stifle debate. You tend to find that on a wide range of issues the two main parties are in broad agreement so those issues tend not to get debated much in the media.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get a flawed voting system reformed as the main political parties have a vested interest in preserving the status quo. After all who wants to change the rules of a game that they're winning!

[Dartful Dodger]

It took months after the election for every vote to be counted in Florida, imagine if every state had to go through that.  The 2004 president wouldn't be declared a winner until the 2008 elections.

[DYNAGOD]

i think you put it far more eloquently than i could have Grasshopper, well said.  

applause!!

[DYNAGOD]

To see where the race is now - http://www.electoral-vote.com/

what kind of magical imaginary data is this based on?? Polls??no one asked me??
the entire notion and concept of polls is flawed and sways opinions artifically..asking 30 people what they think and then portraying their concensus as the overall opinion of all americans is in and of itself a misleading practice , this practice is increasingly being perpetrated by the biased media and it needs to stop..when a news company is owned by politically interested parties, that entity cannot be trusted to be an impartial source of accuratee and impartial information for public consumption during an election season..polls have become a political tool,or more accurately  a political weapon..they are grossly out of proportion to the views of the true majority of americans, and tend to only reflect the interest of the media holdings that so carelessly present them. thi sbecomes clear when the same poll on two channles with different party interests contradict,as is the case nightly....
Sadly, people cant differentiate reality from the poll fodder theyre fed by the media..Some people,whom cant think for themselves, actually misconstrew this as the overall opinion of their peers and take it as fact and misleadingly base their votes off this crap.. the media has too much influence..and polls are a tool of manipulation..polls are a reflection of a minescule minority of the american people...but the media would have you think its everyone..
and anyone who thinks that that electoral vote has any foundation in grand scope reality is allowing themselves to be led down a dark path..

[shmokes]

Well...polls are a usefull resource and, when done correctly, are excellent predictors.  

www.electoral-vote.com is run by a democrat and is criticized, unfairly I think, for leaning left.  At any rate, I hardly think Fredster can be faulted in this case for using biased information, cos if there is a bias it is not in his candidate's favor.

[DYNAGOD]

delete me

[DYNAGOD]

i disagree, polls are a usless resource...
if we spent less time and effort analyzing, disecting, manipulating and playing information warfare in the media and simply let the votes speak for themselves, then people might actually feel empowered and start going back out to the voting booths..
this is the same kind of crap that hurts our economy daily..
a stupid rumor about a particular sector gets out in the am,totally false as it is, by noon people are selling like crazy and drives that sector into the ground anyways despite its being nothing more than unfounded conjecture. .
its called manifest destiny..and polls are the perfect example of that,,if you start a rumor,,some people might actually be foolish enough to beleive its fact and thus make it happen..

let me also say before i continue on,, i have no party affiliation left or right. or middle.i hate all parties equally..  whomever is best for the nation is my choice. im not interested in clubhouse fandom..
sadly such an individual has never in my voting lifetime been up to the task..im sadly left with the whos not the worst vote..

[shmokes]

Well....chicken-or-the-egg notwithstanding, polls have proven themselves to be quite accurate predictors of election outcomes.  I'm not saying they're good or bad or speaking to any possible self-fulfilling prophesy effect they might have.  I'm just saying they work pretty well.  

[DrewKaree]

THAT'S the spirit dynagod!  

Go ahead, buddy, let your smile be your umbrella!

Buck up little camper, turn that frown upside down!

[Mameotron]

People who live in areas where one of the parties is very dominant end up feeling that their vote is wasted.

The exact same thing happens with your "one man, one vote" idea.  Rural, sparsely populated areas have no hope of their votes counting against urban, densely populated areas.  In America, everything would be decided by New York, Los Angeles, and maybe Chicago.  North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, West Virginia, Rhode Island, all would effectively have no vote. For example, Dade County, Florida has more people than the entire state of West Virginia.

How is this better?

[Mameotron]

I don't think the electoral college has anything to do with why we have only 2 parties.  If the DrewKaree party campaigns on a platform that many people agree with, it can gain the same status as the Republicans & Democrats.  I think Ross Perot showed us all that you can start your own party.
I think that the real reason for the problems with the political system is simple: APATHY.  It is much easier to say, I don't like either candidate, I'm not voting, than to look at how alternative candidates stand on issues.  If you honestly believe that both candidates suck, you shouldn't vote for either one.  There are other choices, and if none of them suit you, you have to pick one that fits your ideas the best.
It doesn't matter if we had 100 parties, there still would not be one that holds my views exactly.  So I have to compromise somewhere.  But no matter what action I take, it is better than taking no action.

[DYNAGOD]

THAT'S the spirit dynagod!

Go ahead, buddy, let your smile be your umbrella!

Buck up little camper, turn that frown upside down!

can you feel the love  

[DrewKaree]

rofl. you really ARE drew carey, aren't you?  

IXNAY on the ARTYPAY, annyday, or we'll EPORTRAY you again!   Remember....your self-incriminations?  ICTURESPAY?  

[DrewKaree]

um, my ipslay are ealedsay

First I'VE ever heard of THAT!  

oops...darned innuendo  

[Mameotron]

LOL, Danny, I just saw your "portrait" on the other thread.  Classic, man, classic!  A monacle indeed!  

nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...

[GGKoul]

For Dartful Doger... 

[shmokes]

Ooh oooh.....give us a rhyme (or something that very nearly rhymes)!!!!!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

In advance of the knuckle dragging....

"BUSH W0nZ0rz!!!!1111" OMGZ11!!!1 LOL!!!


mrC

[Crazy Cooter]

HAHAHA

I spend too much time here...  Jokes that span across threads.

And oh yeah:

Get over it.  Your guy lost by the most biggest votes evar!  Now watch me en Enus drive dis pickemup back over dat der hill yonder.  YEE HAW!  Four more years!   Four more years!  All your earl are belong to us!
 

[shmokes]

I always thought John Kerry should have capitalized on that "Four more years!!" chant by making "Four more years???" signs.  That's what I hate about him, though.  He ran a crap campaign. 

Left wingers shouldn't hate George Bush.  He did just about everything he could to get himself booted out of office.  Nobody is more responsible for Bush's "four more years" than John Kerry.  That's who the left wingers should be pissed at.

Anyway....c'est la vie.  No use getting into this again.

[Crazy Cooter]

You're right shmokes, the dems need a better PR guy.

[DrewKaree]

You're in luck, Howard Dean will take over running the show from Terry McAwful now.

That guy knows how to raise a few bucks.

[DrewKaree]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42910

#5b

#3

#7

#13 (somehow)

#12

and finally, #11

[fredster]

I remember this thread fondly.

I wish I had a football to spike. Guess they needed "1001 reasons" 

Kerry was such a bad candidate. And his wife didn't help.

[GGKoul]

I remember this thread fondly.

I wish I had a football to spike. Guess they needed "1001 reasons"

[Dartful Dodger]

You're right shmokes, the dems need a better PR guy.

They need 3 million more voters.