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Author Topic: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW  (Read 28381 times)

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GGKoul

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1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« on: August 19, 2004, 11:33:59 am »
http://www.thousandreasons.org/listB.html

If you scroll down the page, you'll see 1000 reasons not to vote for GW.

-GGKoul

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2004, 11:39:26 am »
http://www.thousandreasons.org/listB.html

If you scroll down the page, you'll see 1000 reasons not to vote for GW.

-GGKoul

Hey man, aren't you Canadian?  What other motivation could you have for starting these threads other than to start arguments, then sit back and watch the fun?   :)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2004, 11:47:17 am »
It just amazes me with all the time an effort that people put in to making these political websites.   From Flash movies to 1000 point lists..

Even though us Canadian's can vote in the US elections.  Who ever becomes president, their policys often affects us Canadians.

Reminds me of the old line... "When US sneezes, Canada gets a cold"


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2004, 12:48:07 pm »
It is a pretty impressive effort in terms of volume.

I am very cynical though. I think that a list like this could be created to support or disparage almost any person, so I take them with a grain of salt.  Data and how people percieve it is a very subjective thing.  I would still be saying this even if it was a list in support of Bush.  

So I go with my gut. If a candidate states goals that are in line with mine and works toward them ethically I support him.  I pay no attention to the fact that people get pissed off along the way.  Years of management have taught me that it is impossible to make real changes without pissing a lot of people off in one way or another.

(Colin Powell said "Being responsible sometimes means pissing people off." That is from >>this presentation<<.   It is excellent reading for anyone in a leadership role.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 02:59:36 pm by Santoro »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2004, 01:45:11 pm »
It just amazes me with all the time an effort that people put in to making these political websites.   From Flash movies to 1000 point lists..

Even though us Canadian's can vote in the US elections.  Who ever becomes president, their policys often affects us Canadians.

Reminds me of the old line... "When US sneezes, Canada gets a cold"


What amazes me is, I don't even know who the King of Canada is, nor do I care.

I love living in a country that's so great other countries take notice when we sneeze.

If Kerry gets elected, Americans could buy all their prescription drugs from Canada, which will put American companies that have to follow those pesky FDA laws out of business.  Which will put more American out of work.

The fact that people from other countries are trying so hard to get Bush out should tell us how important it is for us to get him in.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 01:59:41 pm »
I'm glad you don't know who the Prime Minister of Canada is and I'm very proud that we are moving ahead with the changing times.   Not trying to restrict it.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 02:04:56 pm »
If Kerry gets elected, Americans could buy all their prescription drugs from Canada, which will put American companies that have to follow those pesky FDA laws out of business.  Which will put more American out of work.

You know what's funny, Canadian companies are buying the drugs from US sources and then reselling them online to American's at a cheaper price then what it costs an American to purchase the same drug at their local drug store.

Also, if I have an injury. I don't have to worry about bringing my Credit Card or Insurance information to the hospital.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2004, 02:07:27 pm by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2004, 02:08:48 pm »
Heh, now someone has to make one that long for Kerry, I'm sure it is possible.  

I don't particularly have an urge to vote for either.  I really don't want either in office :)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2004, 02:11:51 pm »
Heh, now someone has to make one that long for Kerry, I'm sure it is possible.  

If I find one, I'll be sure to post it here.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2004, 02:38:08 pm »
I work for/with one of the major pharmaceutical companies and the reason the cost to americans is so high is that what is charged is not the cost of individual medicines, but rather money for past and future research and development. The cost for some reason is not reflective when selling the drugs to companies outside of the US. I'm sure I can inquire why it is, but doubt that it would be an answer that I or any other american would want to hear.

-Goz

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2004, 02:41:49 pm »
Whats a Prime Minister............. ;D ;D
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2004, 02:55:00 pm »
Whats a Prime Minister............. ;D ;D
A person that tells his/her people to do what the Americans him/her to do.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2004, 03:02:43 pm »
Whats a Prime Minister............. ;D ;D
A person that tells his/her people to do what the Americans him/her to do.

Excuse me?

If we Canadians acted like Americans... Then why does Canada have:
- Free Health Care
- No Gun Issues
- No Abortion issues
- Allow Gay Marriages
- No Free Speech issues (except for Quebec)

Nobody perfect, but at least we listen to the people and move forward with the times.


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2004, 03:13:53 pm »
I like Bush, seems like everyone on this site is against him, I think hes doing a good job.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2004, 03:14:42 pm »

Excuse me?

If we Canadians acted like Americans... Then why does Canada have:
- Free Health Care
- No Gun Issues
- No Abortion issues
- Allow Gay Marriages
- No Free Speech issues (except for Quebec)

Nobody perfect, but at least we listen to the people and move forward with the times.

The people on our borders voluntarily gave up their guns, sounds to me like our plants in your government are doing their job.

Quebec is like Louisiana, it's just a place to keep the French from contaminating the rest of the nation.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2004, 03:21:07 pm »
I like Bush, seems like everyone on this site is against him, I think hes doing a good job.

Not everyone, just those who live outside of the U.S.A.

Don't take these threads seriously, they are a waste of time.

Today I have time to waste, so here I am.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2004, 03:35:48 pm »
Don't take these threads seriously, they are a waste of time.

Today I have time to waste, so here I am.

Me too.. I'm just bored...  But I agree with some of the comments that I've read on this board.  Bush & Kerry are the worst choices for president in a long while.  

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2004, 03:53:46 pm »
I work for/with one of the major pharmaceutical companies and the reason the cost to americans is so high is that what is charged is not the cost of individual medicines, but rather money for past and future research and development. The cost for some reason is not reflective when selling the drugs to companies outside of the US. I'm sure I can inquire why it is, but doubt that it would be an answer that I or any other american would want to hear.

-Goz

They say its to cover "research".
The truth? They are maximizing profit. As long as we continue to pay more, they will charge us more. Other nations are less willing/able to pay the same price, so they lower it accordingly. If they lower it across the board, they make less money (or as they say "lose money").

Blame our doctors as well... prescribing unnessary drugs. They don't get kickbacks in the form of cash (that I know of), but they do get free trips, merchandise, and food.

If it wasn't for their crappy national anthem, I'd move to Canada  ::)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2004, 04:31:40 pm »
Me too.. I'm just bored...  

Then for GOD'S SAKE, start a more interesting thread!   :'(

Like maybe: Canada....who?


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2004, 04:33:53 pm »
haha

That's a funny site...

www.wedonotliveinigloos.com

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2004, 04:41:46 pm »


I found this pretty funny. I'm American and this map looks fine to me.   ;)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2004, 05:31:50 pm »
Quote
If we Canadians acted like Americans... Then why does Canada have:
- Free Health Care
- No Gun Issues
- No Abortion issues
- Allow Gay Marriages
- No Free Speech issues (except for Quebec)

Free Health Care? non existant, you are paying for it. Just not at the time services are rendered.

Gun issues? We have the right to bare arms (meant to protect) With all rights come responsibilties

No abortion issues. Because we are the land of the free and laws for the people by the people blah blah, we have different laws governing. California - abortions are legal. Other places no. This is a problem because of mixes beleief issues again because we are a collection of more diverse people.

Gay Marriages - you can have them. No offense intended to any gays reading this, but again it is a matter of beliefs and the letter of the law. The law states that a marriage is between a man and a woman (multiple women  in utah). It is an issue here because of perception. The gay activists believe they are being repressed. It's not repression, its law. If enough people want it, have the law changed to a marriage being between two individuals not related by blood.

No free speach issues - people are free to say what they think / feel here, but most believe that their actions come without reactions.

Disclaimer: This reply is not intended to offend any gays or canadians or gay canadians, or the residents of the state of Utah.

I guess all I am trying to say is that we all look at the world and our own countries a little bit differently. I'm lucky to live iin the worlds 5th largest economy (California) and I know my beliefs on the situation are far different than that of my family in Michigan and Mississippi.

To quote Rodney King "Caann''t We all juust get allong?" (spelling reflects the way the man speaks) <-- not intended to offend anyone with a drawl in the way they speak.

Done with disclaimers and my point of view

Just my .02

-Goz

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2004, 10:45:57 pm »
Quote
If enough people want it, have the law changed to a marriage being between two individuals not related by blood.

All those disclaimers and you still managed to offend northern and midwestern residents. You just banned marriages between 2nd/3rd cousins  :-\ . Now they are gonna have to go one town over to meet someone (or they could try online dating).
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2004, 11:22:05 pm »
well i really didnt have anything against canada cept for they got all pissy when triumph the insult comic dog from the conan obrien show came there and made fun of some retarded quebec separatists or something.  canada got all pissed and said he couldnt come back.....dumb.  hockey sucks. 8)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2004, 11:25:51 pm »


I found this pretty funny. I'm American and this map looks fine to me.   ;)

That is too funny.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2004, 11:43:30 pm »


I found this pretty funny. I'm American and this map looks fine to me.   ;)

It map gives American's too much credit.  As over 30% of Americans think Canadian is south of the US.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2004, 12:02:56 am »
Free Health Care? non existant, you are paying for it. Just not at the time services are rendered.

Yep my taxes pay for it.  But at least it's not a 2 tier system..


Gun issues? We have the right to bare arms (meant to protect) With all rights come responsibilities

I didn't know it was still the 1800's... Where there was no Army and the North & South need assistance.

No abortion issues.

Which is worse??  An Abortion or the people killing doctors that perform them?


Gay Marriages - you can have them.

Why wouldn't a Gay couple that has been together for over many years have the same rights as a traditional common law couple?  They both love each other, they both support each other and they both are upstanding citizens in the community.  Pierre Elliott Trudeau

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2004, 08:53:10 am »
hey you didnt comment on my hockey statement!!  i feel left out  :'(
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 08:53:41 am by hulkster »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2004, 09:37:57 am »
hey you didnt comment on my hockey statement!!  i feel left out  :'(


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2004, 09:42:07 am »
Who is Jesus?

-Goz

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2004, 10:47:11 am »
well i really didnt have anything against canada cept for they got all pissy when triumph the insult comic dog from the conan obrien show came there and made fun of some retarded quebec separatists or something.  canada got all pissed and said he couldnt come back.....dumb.  hockey sucks. 8)

Nobody can make fun off the Quebecers.. not even other Quebecers.  




Hockey sucks...  I know, it's too fast for some of you Americans.  :p

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2004, 11:51:26 am »
GGKoul,

Your interest in American politics is wonderful.  It's likely much more interesting than the Canadian politics for sure.  Not only do Canadians not really care for their politics, neither does anybody else.

As far as the quote, "As over 30% of Americans think Canadian is south of the US".  I have to say that over 60% think Canada has the same business ethics and technical prowess as China, only 3000 miles closer.  

You don't have any gun problems because you are barred from having them.  You have health care and you pay most of the money you make to take care of that.  (We do too, indirectly with insurance premiums. ) You also have to find a doctor that speaks your language in order to get the proper treatment, because the good ones all come to the USA.

We in the US have what you call an "abortion" issue because some of us still have some moral fibers left.  We have degraded to the point we can't understand right and wrong or take a stand on issues.

As far as free speech, you may find that you are not allowed access to all the news outlets the US has.  Fox has been "banned" in Canada, etc.

Your nation has let in a lot of newcommers because the old are getting older and the new generation won't be able to pick up the huge tab for healthcare in the next few years either, no matter how much you get taxed.  Healthcare, like everything else has to fall within the universal laws of time and money.  If you run out of either of them, you are in trouble.

A 30 day American Boycott of Canada would bring down your entire civilization.  You are protected from all sides by the US.





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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2004, 12:40:06 pm »
If Kerry gets elected, Americans could buy all their prescription drugs from Canada, which will put American companies that have to follow those pesky FDA laws out of business.  Which will put more American out of work.

Since when were conservatives protectionists?  Did you'all finally get around to stringing Adam Smith up?  What ever happned to free markets and capitalism?

Quote
The fact that people from other countries are trying so hard to get Bush out should tell us how important it is for us to get him in.

Yes...the measure of a good leader is one that the rest of the world views as extraordinarily dangerous and actively wants to see removed from power.  Hitler being a good example of this.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2004, 12:46:09 pm »
One other problem I find is the drug price issue.

There's a lot of debate, but the fact of the matter is that the USA is the leading producer and developer of drugs in the world, bar none.

In socialist countries like Germany, the drug research funding has been reduced to the point they are no longer a player.  They are like the rest of the world waiting on the USA to help them.  Check this link http://www.corante.com/pipeline/20040101.shtml#67099

Simply put, if research is limited due to price controls then the new medications are not available at ANY PRICE.  When governments artificially force a lower price of a good, the supply drops. If an investment provides a lower return without lowering the risk, the money will flow elsewhere. This means people will continue to see our loved ones die as research is postponed due to lack of funding. That's Econ 101.

How to get drug prices even lower? Simple. Increase supply. If Europe ended price controls, more companies would enter the market, pushing down prices. If the FDA streamlined its standards, costs of bringing new drugs to market would fall, increasing supply. If property rights were protected, the cost of capital for investment in new drugs would fall, increasing supply. That is the answer.

Take a look at California and the energy crisis they faced.  They tried to artificially limit the price of power and their entire grid failed.  Sure you can try and blame Enron, but they were just cashing in on the mistake.  

I follow that very closely because my wife has Huntington's Disease.  She's 36 and in a nursing home.  My 10 year old is at risk.

I don't like it when people who have no idea the stakes attack the people who are working to save her.  The USA is the leader in this genetic and medical research in the world.  I'm looking for a cure for her and my son who is at risk for HD.




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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2004, 01:03:46 pm »

Yes...the measure of a good leader is one that the rest of the world views as extraordinarily dangerous and actively wants to see removed from power.  Hitler being a good example of this.

If Bush is such a threat you should take him out by force, you don't have to go across the ocean to do it, like we did with Sadam.

You can't because, you don't have any guns, and you have accepted the mass murder of unborn children so you don't have the population to form a big enough army.  Well maybe those gays you're allowing to marry can have enough children to protect you.


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2004, 01:40:20 pm »
Fredster,  you ought to consider a course in tact.  Your post is not only filled with inaccuracies, it's filled with not-so-nice inaccuracies.

GGKoul,

Your interest in American politics is wonderful.  It's likely much more interesting than the Canadian politics for sure.  Not only do Canadians not really care for their politics, neither does anybody else.

Perhaps you should take a look at what percentage of Americans vote in our elections before getting all high-and-mighty with another country.  Our voter turn-out is no better than Canada's.

Quote
As far as the quote, "As over 30% of Americans think Canadian is south of the US".  I have to say that over 60% think Canada has the same business ethics and technical prowess as China, only 3000 miles closer.  

Much like the U.S. children in canada can only work on farms, in restaurants, and in home-based businesses.  Maybe (or maybe not, for all I know) they import products from countries that use child labor, but the U.S. certainly has no place to be critical there.

Quote
You don't have any gun problems because you are barred from having them.  You have health care and you pay most of the money you make to take care of that.  (We do too, indirectly with insurance premiums. ) You also have to find a doctor that speaks your language in order to get the proper treatment, because the good ones all come to the USA.

They're barred from having handguns and assault weapons.  Canadians hunt more than Americans.  We also bar many dangerous weapons.  We can't buy bazookas, grenades, m-16s, rocket launchers, flame throwers, etc.  So their line is in a slightly different place than us.  We both have Gun Control.

And by any measure Canada's medical system is better than ours.  And cheaper.  Whether paid for by taxes or insurance premiums, it costs far less plain and simple.  They have a lower mortality rate, infant mortality rate, death caused by medical error.  The only bragging rights Americans have for medicine is that we get to pay the most for it.  About 10 or 12 countries have us beat everywhere else.

Quote
We in the US have what you call an "abortion" issue because some of us still have some moral fibers left.  We have degraded to the point we can't understand right and wrong or take a stand on issues.

Don't lump me in with your so called high-morals.  God's all-powerful you know.  If he needs your help, he'll ask.  Pro-life is an immoral position and making abortions illegal is an unworkable solution.  And for whoever it was that said that abortions are legal in California and illegal elsewhere, I suggest you take a look at Roe v. Wade.  It's illegal for a state to ban abortions.

Quote
As far as free speech, you may find that you are not allowed access to all the news outlets the US has.  Fox has been "banned" in Canada, etc.

If that's true, well, that's pretty lame.  Not that Canadians are missing out on anything, since Fox news is ridiculous and irresponsible and unethical, but...I digress.  The censorship is lame.

Quote
A 30 day American Boycott of Canada would bring down your entire civilization.  You are protected from all sides by the US.

That's absurd.  Our Cuban boycot has lasted a little bit more than 30 days and last time I checked Castro is still in power.  Canada, obviously, would not want to sever ties with their rich neighbors, but they'd be fine without us.  Certainly, with a healthy democracy, freedom of speach and press and a largely capitalistic economic policy they would fare better than Cuba.

America is a superpower that effects the entire world, but you're buying a lot of hogwash and propaganda, my friend.  The euro is dominating the dollar, and there is no indication that that will change anytime in the near future.  Many of these countries who you think depend on us actually own us (in the same way a bank owns a houseowner until the house is paid off).  China and Saudia Arabia are a couple of those countries.  

We're also nowhere near as mighty as you like to tell yourself.  Look how difficult Iraq is.  And this is after a decade of economic sanctions and the country disarming itself.  Can you imagine what we would face if we tried even to go into North Korea, let alone China.  I'm not even sure we would win a war with China.  

I wish people like you would realize that your smugness is based on an extreme faslse sense of security.  We HAVE to live in the global community.  I wish more people realized how important it is to get along.

I hope Drew doesn't see this post.  I give him endless crap for making big wind-bag posts like this.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 02:22:43 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2004, 02:07:36 pm »
If Bush is such a threat you should take him out by force, you don't have to go across the ocean to do it, like we did with Sadam.

One problem, putting aside the fact that I would be unsuccessful and would only accomplish my own death or imprisonment, is that I live in a democracy and Bush is the legal president.  I'd like to help get him out of office the legal way (by voting him out), but alas, I live in Utah, so I can't help by voting either.  Ranting on message boards is about as effective as I can be.

You kind of lost me on the rest of your argument.  I don't see how criminalizing abortion would help me raise an army.  I don't have any guns, but I live across the street from Ace Hardware and next to a sporting goods store.  Three days from now I could have as many guns as I wanted.  And who are these children of gays supposed to be protecting me from?  Are you okay, Dartful?  I think you might have a little foam you need to wipe off your mouth.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2004, 02:11:59 pm »
shmokes,

I stand by what I said. It must be wonderful to be in College. I'm glad you like it.

Voter turnout.
Voter turnout has nothing to do with anything.

Being Critical:
The US has the right to be critical of anything the same way Canadians and other countries have a right to be critical of us.  We are a superpower, and we act that way.

Healthcare:
How do you know the Canadian health system is better than ours? Back that up.  It's an opinion, not a fact.  There problems with any system. At least we can find a doctor if we need one.

Abortion:
As far as "lumping you in" - I said some of us, not all of us.  There is the side that says this is murder in any eyes.  You should try and see the other side to that argument. It's a big issue.  Just because it can't be banned doesn't mean anything to the moral aspect of it. It doesn't make it right in everybody's eyes.

Same thing about Smoking.

Boycott:
No, it's not.  The comparison between Cuba and Canada is absurd.  Cuba was supported by Russia.  I wouldn't say that their quality of life has improved from the time Castro took control would you?  If it was so nice, then I don't suppose they'd be on boats to FLA would they?  

As far as Hogwash and propganda I'm sorry, but I have served my country in the Army, I have paid taxes and voted in every election there is.  I think that we are the leader of not only the free world, but the entire world.  And I thank God it's us and not France.  If you think otherwise, sorry. I think that's propoganda.  

I think in fact you have fallen prey to those who would undermine the way of life in the US.  It is dividing our culture and destroying our core values.  Look at Canada, they can't even figure out what Language to speak.  They are taxed to the point they want to migrate to the US to escape it.  

Gun Control:
Only the criminals have guns in Canada.  The law abiding citizens had to give theirs up.  I don't see where it will help us.  

Censorship:
Yep, there are other media outlets Banned in Canada.  As far as Fox, I have to support them over any other news outlet.  I think NPR should be shut down myself.  I don't think that's censorship, I think that's business.

Global Community:
When did we ever get along?  The US is the world's policeman because nobody else has the fiber to do something about horrendous situations.

We have freed France, Germany, brought down the Wall, and have established democracy all over this planet.  

More people are free because of the USA then all the others put together.

If the Global community is so valuable to the peace and sanctitty of life, then where are they in the Sudan where thousands of people are dying right now??

What cause is worth fighting for?  Just the ones you think are important?



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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2004, 02:54:23 pm »
If Bush is such a threat you should take him out by force, you don't have to go across the ocean to do it, like we did with Sadam.

I live in Utah, so I can't help by voting either.

Sorry by your lack of knowlededge of Americans rights, I thought you were a Canadian.


They're barred from having handguns and assault weapons.  Canadians hunt more than Americans.  We also bar many dangerous weapons.  We can't buy bazookas, grenades, m-16s, rocket launchers, flame throwers, etc.  So their line is in a slightly different place than us.  We both have Gun Control.

You CAN buy an M-16 in some states, UTAH is one of those states.

What is an assault weapon?

Do you believe a hand gun is the same as a bazooka?

Stop getting your facts from Bowling for Columbine.

You live in one of the truly free states, if you don't like it move to France.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2004, 03:37:27 pm »
Well, I swore to myself I wasn't getting involved unless it got ugly, but this line irritates the heck out of me. Dodger, I'm not singling you out, many people are slinging this line around...

Quote
You live in one of the truly free states, if you don't like it move to France.

That is the utter antithesis of what living in a democracy is about. It is the very fact that we  are able to stand up and declare that we do not like the direction the country is moving in and that we believe there is a better way that is what makes this country one of the greatest on this planet.  I live in one of the truly free states, if I don't like it, *I should work to change it*, not leave it....

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to death your right to say it. I may try to convince you you're wrong, or that it's not worth my time, but I won't tell you to get the hell out.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2004, 04:14:41 pm »

Sorry by your lack of knowlededge of Americans rights, I thought you were a Canadian.

Heh...I think I think it is, perhaps, your lack of understanding of how our electoral system works, rather than my lack of knowledge of American rights that is causing your confusion, Dartful.  Utah is the MOST republican state in the nation.  Whether I vote for Kerry, Bush, Nader, None of the Above, or simply stay home on voting day, all 5 of Utah's electoral votes will count for Bush.  And since popular vote does not affect the outcome of the election (hence Gore is not the president) I truly "can't help [get George Bush out of office] by voting."

The only gun fact you refuted was that M16s are illegal.  What does that have to do with Bowling for Columbine?  I just assumed that they are illegal because I've never seen them for sale, and it makes sense that they would be illegal.

I don't think handguns and bazookas are the same, but it's the same principle.  Freedom to bare arms is not absolute, whether it's cooking knives or tanks that are being banned.  If it makes you feel any better freedom of speach is also restricted in many ways.  Slander and libel are illegal.  It's illegal for me to yell into a bull-horn at 3:00 a.m. in front of a Hospital -- even if I'm on a public sidewalk and think Intermountain Healthcare is evil.

Quote
You live in one of the truly free states, if you don't like it move to France.

France is every bit as free as we are.  There are differences; they are more free in many ways and less free in others.  But those differences are superficial.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2004, 04:42:37 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2004, 04:35:04 pm »

Healthcare:
How do you know the Canadian health system is better than ours? Back that up.  It's an opinion, not a fact.  There problems with any system. At least we can find a doctor if we need one.

Here are some fun statistics.  I'll start with cost since the Canadian government spends less, per capita, for healthcare than the U.S. government, in spite of everyone thinking Canada has an evil, socialist healthcare system and the U.S. doesn't:

Public Healthcare Funding, per capita:  U.S.=$2,051  Canada=$1,826
Private Healthcare Funding, per capita: U.S.=$2,580  Canada=$709
Total Annual Cost of Healthcare, per capita:    U.S.=$4,631   Canada=$2,535

So, Canadians can actually afford healthcare.  It must be inferior in quality, right?

Babies born with low Birthweight:  U.S.=7.8%   Canada=5.6%

Doctors per 1000 people:  U.S.=2.8   Canada=2.1  (U.S. actually wins this one)

Child mortality per 1,000:   U.S.=16   Canada=11

Life Expectancy (in years):   U.S.=77.14   Canada=79.83

Life Expectancy (Healthy Years):  U.S.=67.6   Canada=69.9

Probability of not living to 60:    U.S.=12.8%   Canada=9.5%

Annual Plastic Surgery Proceedures  ;D  :    U.S.= 90,992     Canada= 11,102

Quote
Same thing about Smoking.
I don't know if this was directed at me, but I don't smoke and never have (well, I've smoked weed a couple dozen times, but I don't smoke that either and probably never will again except if I'm in Amsterdam)


Quote
We have freed France, Germany, brought down the Wall, and have established democracy all over this planet.

That's just narcissistic.  We played a tardy, albeit significant role in beating the Nazis.  We had relatively nothing to do with bringing the wall down.  And rarely, Japan being a notable exception, is democracy ever established except by revolution, usually violent, by the citizens of the state in question.  When it is established by a third party without the revolution of the citizens, Japan being a notable exception,  it rarely works.


Edit:  Those statistics are World Health Organization stats in case you wanted to check my credibility.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2004, 04:55:57 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2004, 04:56:25 pm »
boobs are cool

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2004, 05:01:53 pm »
Censorship:
Yep, there are other media outlets Banned in Canada.  As far as Fox, I have to support them over any other news outlet.  I think NPR should be shut down myself.  I don't think that's censorship, I think that's business.

I'm not sure what your talking about here... but every major US news outlet can be viewed here in Canada.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2004, 05:09:43 pm »
Gun Control:
Only the criminals have guns in Canada.  The law abiding citizens had to give theirs up.  I don't see where it will help us.  

If I wanted a gun, I can get a gun.. There is no issue with Canadian getting a gun... it's just not my "'right" too have gun.  Canadians are hunters..


We have freed France, Germany, brought down the Wall, and have established democracy all over this planet.  

I'm your forgetting a couple of things regarding this... Canadian Soldiers were also fighting in WW1 & WW2 long before US got involved with these wars. And we've helped freed a bunch of countries too.  Remember, Canadian Soldiers were the only soldiers to land on Normandy beach where they were suppose to.  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 05:13:20 pm by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2004, 05:15:07 pm »
Quote from: shmokes link=board=6;threadid=23483;start=40#msg192022
Public Healthcare Funding, per capita:  U.S.=$2,051  Canada=$1,826
Private Healthcare Funding, per capita: U.S.=$2,580  Canada=$709
Total Annual Cost of Healthcare, per capita:    U.S.=$4,631   Canada=$2,535

So, Canadians can actually afford healthcare.  It must be inferior in quality, right?

Babies born with low Birthweight:  U.S.=7.8%   Canada=5.6%

Doctors per 1000 people:  U.S.=2.8   Canada=2.1  (U.S. actually wins this one)

Child mortality per 1,000:   U.S.=16   Canada=11

Life Expectancy (in years):   U.S.=77.14   Canada=79.83

Life Expectancy (Healthy Years):  U.S.=67.6   Canada=69.9

Probability of not living to 60:    U.S.=12.8%   Canada=9.5%

Plastic Surgery Proceedures  ;D  :    U.S.= 90,992     Canada= 11,102

Quote


Great Stats!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 05:16:36 pm by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2004, 05:40:23 pm »
Another one for Fred...

Voter turnout.
Voter turnout has nothing to do with anything.

You don't think that whether a person votes is any kind of indicator of whether that person is interested in politics????  I mean, certainly there are other indicators, but that's a pretty valid one that's nice and easy to quantify.

Quote
Boycott:
No, it's not.  The comparison between Cuba and Canada is absurd.  Cuba was supported by Russia.  I wouldn't say that their quality of life has improved from the time Castro took control would you?  If it was so nice, then I don't suppose they'd be on boats to FLA would they?  

I didn't say Canada would be better off if the U.S. boycotted them for 30 days, I said that said boycot would certainly not end their civilization.  In fact, if I remember right I also said that for obvious reason Canada would not want to sever their relationship with the U.S.  Of course, the quality of life in the U.S. would also be impacted negatively if we boycotted Canada.

Quote
I think that we are the leader of not only the free world, but the entire world.
But, of course, we are neither.  At least not by American standards -- considering that would make America an unelected dictator.  If you believe that the right to rule comes solely from one's military power, I wonder if it isn't you, and not me, who should move to another country.   In America we believe in democracy.

Quote
I think in fact you have fallen prey to those who would undermine the way of life in the US.  It is dividing our culture and destroying our core values.  


That's absolutely correct.  I'm all about undermining the way of life in America, because I believe it could be a lot better.  I think it's important to destroy core values that suck.  The inferiority of blacks compared with whites was such a core value of America that the Constitution of the United States actually defines a black man as 3/5 of a person.   I don't care about the status quo, I care about right and wrong.

Quote
Look at Canada, they can't even figure out what Language to speak.  They are taxed to the point they want to migrate to the US to escape it.  

Have another statistic:

Average Annual Budget Revenues, per capita:  U.S.= $6,702.42  Canada=$5,545.35


Canadians pay less than we do in taxes.  Maybe it's you who should be supporting your claims with facts.

« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 05:49:59 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2004, 05:49:44 pm »
Please.  There are so many reports of socialized medicine falling apart, it is a shame people buy into it.  Geeze.  Here's a link (out of at least 3000 I could find) to refute the WHO impression of it.  I didn't find that comparison by the way in my search.  I did find a whole lot of this though :

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/chapterfiles/Executive%20Summary-pages1-6.pdf#1

The Canadian system is not as well managed as people would like, and private doctors are not in the system.  No wonder the English speaking doctors are heading to the good ol' USA.  It has no competition.  The world looks to the US as the innovator.  Let me put it this way, if anybody in your family is sick or terribly ill, do they seek the experts in any other country besides the USA?  Where do the rich of the world go for experts? Canada? No. They come here.  

Now I'm not against Canada per say. No way. Canada has worked with American much better than Mexico in the past.  The Liberal government of Canada is trying to maintain itself.  

Eventually, any goverment/country in trouble will start blaming some other unrelated factors to divert the blame from theselves.  Don't Buy into that.

And find Foxnews Channel in Canada on your cable.  Go ahead, look for it in the listings.  If it's there and you can find Bill O'Reilley, then I appologize.

I guess what tees me off is foreigners wanting to interfere in American Politics.  I don't mind Shmokes or Mr. C going off, but I don't think it's my place to discuss political trends in other free countries like the UK, Austrailia, or Canada.  And vice versa.

By the Way Shmokes, as far as the smoking remark, I wasn't trying to pun your name.  I was trying to draw the comparison of issues.  One is not as severe as the other.  But some people go off on smokers and think it should be banned. I'm a smoker.  I love smoking.  Abortion is the same way. Just because it isn't banned doesn't mean people won't disagree about it.

And the US did free those countries by our direct involvement with the Allies.  It's not narcissistic. It's a fact.  You can spin it anyway you want, but it will come out that the US is the leader in those respects.

And it's a right to own firearms in the US.  A lot of people have fought and died for that right.  I don't plan on giving anymore rights.


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2004, 05:55:41 pm »
A lot of people have fought and died for that right.  I don't plan on giving anymore rights.

Oh yeah?  How about a woman's right to have an abortion?  Would you give that up?  Or is it only the rights you use that you want to protect?

And a cable company choosing not to put Fox News in their linup as a business decision is a far cry from government censorship.  I really think you should consider a little fact checking before you click the post button.

Basic Dish Network service where I live doesn't include Fox News.  That's probably the Censorship from the Bush Administration, eh?  They must hate Fox News.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2004, 04:47:48 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2004, 06:05:15 pm »
A lot of people have fought and died for that right.  I don't plan on giving anymore rights.

Oh yeah?  How about a woman's right to have an abortion?  Would you give that up?  Or is it only the rights you use that you want to protect?


A lot of people are dieing for abortion too.

The ones dieing are against abortion, and they're to young to vote.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2004, 06:19:22 pm »
how about a womans right to show off her boobs!??!  thats what i stand for: "boobs, breasts, and the american rack"

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2004, 07:11:01 pm »
how about a womans right to show off her boobs!??!  thats what i stand for: "boobs, breasts, and the american rack"

Here's a site for you.. http://www.topfree.ca/  <--- It's Canadian.

Also, in Canada, For a short period after the Ontario Court of Appeal ruled in 1996 that a Guelph woman was not indecent when she walked down the street topless, some street-corner prostitutes in that province displayed their breasts to potential customers.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2004, 07:32:14 pm »
The Canadian system is not as well managed as people would like, and private doctors are not in the system.  No wonder the English speaking doctors are heading to the good ol' USA.  It has no competition.  The world looks to the US as the innovator.  Let me put it this way, if anybody in your family is sick or terribly ill, do they seek the experts in any other country besides the USA?  Where do the rich of the world go for experts? Canada? No. They come here.  

Just to give you the facts about Canada's Health Care system:
 
- Canada does not have a 2 Tier health care system.  As Health Care is a basic right for all Canadians and not a "private" health care system for those you can afford it.

- The only Canadian doctor's that are going to the US, are the ones mainly in the cosmetic industry.  As there is a larger market in the US.


The world looks to the US as the innovator.

Yes, that was the case.  But when I last checked, stem cell research wasn't allowed in the US.  And this is forcing some Research Doctors to move outside of the US to continue their research by usign stem cells.  And because of this, your going to see more innovations coming form other place.  Doctor's leaving the US is similar to what happened in Germany in the 1940's & 50's.  When doctor's left to come to the US to continue their research with out any interference from the "State"


Let me put it this way, if anybody in your family is sick or terribly ill, do they seek the experts in any other country besides the USA?  Where do the rich of the world go for experts? Canada? No. They come here.  


If I'm sick, I go to the hospital and I get taken care of.  Yes, the Rich of the world come to the US when they are sick.  Because in the US health care.. money talks.  If Canada, if I'm sick, I get the best experts in that field to help me.  I don't have to pay extra money to have that expert take care of me.  

But when I last check, the leading places for Aids, Cancer,  MS research was in Canada.



Yes, there is some issues with the Canadian Health Care system.  But at a bare minium, a sick person, regardless of how mutch money they have or if they have insurance or not.. in Canada, they will be taken care of and not be sent out into the cold.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 07:35:14 pm by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2004, 07:53:53 pm »

The ones dieing are against abortion, and they're to young to vote.

I can go on and on about this too, but I assume that most people here would just as soon not have the abortion argument here.

My point is, Fredster wants to undermine our way of life too.  Abortion is currently legal, he wants it to be illegal.  We both want to change the country for the better.  My idea of better is just better than yours.  ;)

And Fred, the WHO isn't taking a position on socialized medicine with those statistics.  I simply went to their website to get factual information.   They're facts.  I didn't get that information out of a WHO article promoting socialized medicine.  I sifted through the statistics they had listed for all member countries, isolated the figures for the U.S. and Canada and relayed them to you.  They are just facts, presented at face value, and you have to come to concusions on your own based on those facts.

I really think that's something that sets you and I apart.  You get your information from people who have a strong political agenda, like Fox News and Bill O'Reilly.  I'm not going to come into a political discussion trying to refute things people say by quoting Bill Maher.  Don't get me wrong, I think Bill Maher is really intelligent, articulate and entertaining.  But he's got an agenda.  He's extremely biased.  He only gives information that reflects positively on his side.

 For example, if I had got those health statistics from Bill Maher's website (if he has one), you can bet that the one about the number of doctors per 1000 people would have simply been left out, because it didn't support the argument.  The U.S. had Canada beat on that one.  It wouldn't be lying, it just wouldn't be complete.  This is the kind of information you get from people like Bill O'Reilly and Bill Maher.  They don't want you to be informed.  They only want you to be informed of things that will make you agree with their political position.  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 07:58:51 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2004, 09:18:09 pm »

I don't wanna get off on a rant here, but it never ceases to amaze me how people even attempt to compare George W Bush and Mr. Kerry.  Now don't get me wrong folks, gw makes a great leader if your idea of leadership is blow up anything that pissed off your daddy or if you find responses such as "umm" "uh" and "wha?" valid counterpoints to issues about the enconomy.  The rest of us, however might prefer a leader that doesn't embarrass the entire nation by how down right stupid he is.  

Let's forget about issues, because weather you all like to admit it or not nobody knows the issues, the candidates views on the issues, the plans they have to solve said isseus, or even if those issues don't exist and they were simply made up to give the opponent something to talk about.  Let's face it kiddies, to 95% of the voting population, doesn't know any of this stuff.  The presidential election is nothing more than a popularity contest.  This can be solidified by the idiotic people interviewed on your local news who give use great reasons for backing candidates like "I like Bush because he's for coal!"  Excuse me?  "For Coal?"  What kind of vague statment is that?  How could you not be "for coal" in one way or another, afterall, it powers 75% of americas electrical plants.  If a candidate buys your vote with such a vaguely laid out statment like that then I have a cow and some magic beans you might be interested in.  

Ok getting back to the point.  We have pretty much shown that issues mean NOTHING in an election.  The quesiton arises then, what should be look at?  Well again, those fiesty candidates have already shown us what to look at, via their crap slinging juvenille cry fests we refer to as political ads.  No i'm not talking about issues, I'm talking about their past. And not the past they look at either.  Quite frankly, I don't care if John Kerry was picking his nose 70% of the time during a vote for prop #567 or if bush once was arrested for shoplifting a pink bunnie lunch box in second grade.  I care about their real past, namely how many times did they screw up on the job before now.  

G. W. has to be the worst example of the people will vote for anybody who's famous, or is realted to somebody famous.  He spent pretty much his entire adult life a drunk, and by some miracle we was elected governor of texas.  Of course it's mere conicidence that he was elected after his daddy was elected president.  Yes, kids, the sad fact is, bush probably got electd because those poor texans were confused and thought they were voting for former president george bush.  But let's get over that and look at how bad we screwed up texas instead.  :D  

Texas has never been known for it's good environment policies, but after bush got done the state was "more polluted"  than it had been in 20 years.  I won't bore you with facts as you don't care about them, but lets just say go down to texas some time and see how smoggy, treeless and all around nasty it is now. Didn't used to be that way before ol'e G.W. came to town, so we'll blame him.  And I won't even go into the economy.  He screwed up texas so bad that some of the poor white trash living there had to be downgraded to "poo' white trash" as they couldn't afford the extra letter.  

The point being, he screwd up texas so bad I knew about it before he even though of running for president.  I don't follow politics, do you know how bad a politician has to screw up before I notice it?  It's like "politician eats babies" level before it even reaches my politically deaf ears.  
Trust me, it's bad.  I know you won't look it up, as you don't really care, but we've covered that, so I'll move on.  

Prsident G.W.  what a wonderful job he's done.  We'll if you consider screwing up the first balanced budget in... well, ever during his first year wonderful.  Yes, that dirty rotten dog Bubba Clinton did something unspeakable during his terms, something that a politician hasn't done since the 1700's.. he did his job.  The economy was in a mess before he popped in and had no sign of turning around. Using his patented 8 year "magicial nobody knows how it worked, but it sure did" plan he left G.W. the keys with the old gal in better shape than she had been in the country's history.  It would have taken a complete idiot to screw it up.  Oh hello Mr. President.   ;D

And don't give me the 9/11 stuff.  He screwed it up way before 9/11.  As a matter of fact, the media was nailing him for it before 9/11 and out of "respect" they magically stopped for the remainder of his term.  9/11 was the best thing that could have happened to him.  Now whenever he screws up he has a great big distraction and a point of blame that everyone will beleive.  He is the large scale equivelent of a bad businessman who was mugged 4 years ago and uses that mugging as a point of blame for why his business went under.  

Kerry?  Well I don't know much about Kerry.  And that is the point.  No news is good news.  Afterall, if he screwd up really bad, we would hear about it.  Media whores love political scandal and if he screwed up big we'd know about it.  Plus, bush makes us look bad.  He's a really bad speaker and on top of that a really bad lier.  I mean how is he supposed to run the naiton if he can't sling b.s. to the American people and other countries.  And fi you don't think that's a necessary skill then I refer you to bubba once again.  Best liar in the history of the nation, and yet he did the best for our nation.  But you don't wanna hear issues, so we'll just leave it at that.  

So vote for Kerry, at least he hasn't screwed up yet.   :D

Well anyway, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  I dunno.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2004, 10:09:09 pm »
yeah, you're wrong.  now dont you feel dumb after writing all that out?  you could have just asked me, and i would have told you before hand that you were wrong.  warn me next time, and ill make sure and tell ya. ;D

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2004, 10:48:49 pm »
Boobs are cool.

Hulkster thanks for reminding us all.

-Goz

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2004, 01:05:42 am »
My eyes are glazing over - these threads are all the same lately and yet I keep looking.

I must be a closet masochist or something.  :)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2004, 01:50:22 am »

G. W. has to be the worst example of the people will vote for anybody who's famous, or is realted to somebody famous.  He spent pretty much his entire adult life a drunk, and by some miracle we was elected governor of texas.  Of course it's mere conicidence that he was elected after his daddy was elected president.  Yes, kids, the sad fact is, bush probably got electd because those poor texans were confused and thought they were voting for former president george bush.  But let's get over that and look at how bad we screwed up texas instead.  :D  

 O.k.  I first of all I am a texas resident have been for about 8 years. Bush may have gotten elected the first time because of who daddy was but he did get re-elected.  So any effect from his dad had worn off by then.
Texas has never been known for it's good environment policies, but after bush got done the state was "more polluted"  than it had been in 20 years.  I won't bore you with facts as you don't care about them, but lets just say go down to texas some time and see how smoggy, treeless and all around nasty it is now. Didn't used to be that way before ol'e G.W. came to town, so we'll blame him.  And I won't even go into the economy.  He screwed up texas so bad that some of the poor white trash living there had to be downgraded to "poo' white trash" as they couldn't afford the extra letter.  

Please, show me the facts.  ???

Ohh no what happened to the trees they are all gone.  Ohh wait I live in a state that is mostly comprised of flat desert like land.  Good thing I live in East Texas with nice hills and pleanty of trees to go around.  It helps that the weather permits this thing called rain to accour in my region that allows for growth for plants like trees.  As for the poor getting poorer, the only companies where i am from that lay off people is trane and Carrier.  Every one that works for them that doesn't have some sort of back up plan for when they get laid off thats their mistake.

Prsident G.W.  what a wonderful job he's done.  We'll if you consider screwing up the first balanced budget in... well, ever during his first year wonderful.  Yes, that dirty rotten dog Bubba Clinton did something unspeakable during his terms, something that a politician hasn't done since the 1700's.. he did his job.  The economy was in a mess before he popped in and had no sign of turning around. Using his patented 8 year "magicial nobody knows how it worked, but it sure did" plan he left G.W. the keys with the old gal in better shape than she had been in the country's history.  It would have taken a complete idiot to screw it up.  Oh hello Mr. President.   ;D

I could have sworn the economy was going down hill as he left office.  
  Oh and a quick note about health care in Texas any person can walk into the emergency room a recieve care regardless if they have health insurance and  outstanding hospital bills.  This is good and bad.

Good:
 Everyone recieves some form of health care.
Bad:
 That everyone includes people that dont have family practishiners(SP?). ie they go to the E.R. with a cold to recieve care because they can't afford to go to a clinic and may stiff the hospital making them eventually charge more, so that over some time my insuarance rates will go up as they have for the past 3 years .

  But IMO(rant, as if any posts on these 2 pages havent been) the good outways the bad and there are to many doctors in texas.  Because I know I sure as hell would not vote to let mal practice law suits cap out at $250,000.  And our current state legislatures are all crap.(end rant)

But if anyone would like to learn more about lovely Smith County please pick up Smith County Justice by David Ellsworth(if you find it tell me i have not read it, it is about our corrupt sheriffs department.)  

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2004, 10:36:34 am »
Boobs are cool.

Hulkster thanks for reminding us all.

-Goz

thanks man....*sigh*...my work here is done.  up, up, and away!!!!

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2004, 01:05:01 pm »
...my work here is done.  

Thank god.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2004, 02:06:34 pm »
And it's a right to own firearms in the US.  A lot of people have fought and died for that right.  I don't plan on giving anymore rights.

...and lots of people are still dying because of it. Why can't you see you have a problem with people being killed by guns? You have more poeple killed by guns per year than many, many other 'civilised' countries combined.....

when will it stop?

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2004, 03:02:05 pm »
And it's a right to own firearms in the US.  A lot of people have fought and died for that right.  I don't plan on giving anymore rights.

...and lots of people are still dying because of it. Why can't you see you have a problem with people being killed by guns? You have more poeple killed by guns per year than many, many other 'civilised' countries combined.....

when will it stop?


from what i have concluded after watching Bowling for Columbine, is that for some reason the people in this country resort to killing people to solve what ever their problem is.  they skip over or are unsatisfied with the means of resolving a dispute by rational thinking.  It just some weird mentallity that alot of americans have ingrained in them that a gun or killing someone solves their problems.

Here's an example: A man i went to high school with had such a grudge with an old friend that 5 years after that person left town and came back.  He found were he was a shot him the parking lot of barnes and noble.  20 minutes later he turned himself in at the sheriffs department.

I still don't think it would help to outlaw all guns.  I also don't see the need for citizens to own automatic weapons.  The people that try to own these weapons for "their protection"  probably have a screw loose.


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2004, 04:17:36 pm »
...my work here is done.  

Thank god.

*spoken in super hero type voice*
never fear shmokes, for i will return....i will return whenever people give useless politcal facts in hopes of changing peoples minds even though it never will!  so keep your nose clean, vote for Bush, and dont shmoke pot.....up, up, and away!!!!
*fades into the distance while flipping off shmokes*

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2004, 04:38:55 pm »
...my work here is done.  
Too much to hope for I guess.  

Hulkster, some people like debating politics regardless of whether we change people's minds.  We enjoy it.  I don't personally care whether you like it or not, considering I'm not in your thread.  I certainly can't figure out why you care if other people are discussing politics.  Your obnoxious tendency to pop in to make unrelated comments in these threads is like me going into a thread where you're talking about the pedestal of your showcase cab being wobbly and making posts like:

G.W. Bush SUCKS!!!

or

Vote for Kerry!!!

Who knows, maybe one day, when you're all grown up, you might even like discussing politics.  
« Last Edit: August 21, 2004, 04:58:38 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2004, 05:15:51 pm »
hmmm....point taken.  

random posts are still cool though...kinda lightens the mood a little.  

oh and kerry sucks. :D

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2004, 06:54:03 pm »
Quote
from what i have concluded after watching Bowling for Columbine, is that for some reason the people in this country resort to killing people to solve what ever their problem is.

Please tell me you are not one of the weak minded people that are influenced by what that a$$bag Micheal Moore tries to get people to believe.

-Goz

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2004, 07:57:35 pm »
Quote
from what i have concluded after watching Bowling for Columbine, is that for some reason the people in this country resort to killing people to solve what ever their problem is.

Please tell me you are not one of the weak minded people that are influenced by what that a$$bag Micheal Moore tries to get people to believe.

-Goz

No i am still voting bush after watching F9/11.  I did enjoy the film though.   If the Dems would have picked a better canidate then Kerry I might have voted for them.  BTW anyone else see the Daily shows video montage of Kerrys life, and to show that he's not bush.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2004, 06:48:56 am »
Gay Marriages - you can have them. No offense intended to any gays reading this, but again it is a matter of beliefs and the letter of the law. The law states that a marriage is between a man and a woman (multiple women  in utah). It is an issue here because of perception. The gay activists believe they are being repressed. It's not repression, its law. If enough people want it, have the law changed to a marriage being between two individuals not related by blood.

It not repression, it's the law?  Thats the biggest piece of crap I've ever read.  Seperate but equal treatment... sound familiar?  Maybe if "enough people didn't want it" we could start giving blacks different bathrooms again....  cause apparantly, if it's part of the law, its not repression.

But thanks for not intending to offend me, but you did a pretty good job.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2004, 06:52:44 am »
On the lighter side...  the Vice Guide to Canada.  It's amazing.


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2004, 10:28:36 am »
On the lighter side...  the Vice Guide to Canada.  It's amazing.



Thanks mmmPB, that was a good, funny read.

(I guess I'm an American Canadaphille - I blame Kids in the Hall, SCTV, and Rush for that.)

(EDIT #2: My 400th Post - woohoo.  I'll catch up to Floyd soon).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2004, 10:33:15 am by DaveMMR »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2004, 03:09:11 pm »
I'd just like to say, as a Canadian, with very good friends and even family on both sides of the border, that this thread is ridiculous. Well, at least the parts where "Canada sucks because it isn't the US". Wow. You know, you guys would probably come by the house, sit down, and I'd mix you whatever drink you'd like (as long as you don't get violent when you drink, as you might find out we don't need guns since we can kill just fine with our hockey sticks and snowshoes), and we'd have a great chat. You'd find that I'm at least as well schooled as yourself, perhaps even more so since I know that dieing is really not a word, and that the US doesn't have a King or a Pope or even a shmoo for a leader. In fact, we'd probably get along just fine, since I have no political aspirations, so don't consider myself a republican or a democrat. Don't like Quebec? GREAT! Want to compare us with Mexico, umm, okay... I don't know many Mexicans but maybe we're just like them. You think American beer is better than Canadian? Cool, I'll grab you one out of the fridge.

What I don't get is hating someone you don't even know. I mean, we could have grown up together in houses side by side, only separated by the (once) invisible Canadian/US border, and we might be like brothers. I think if we knew each other like that it would be more difficult to say "you're Canadian/Mexican/Russian/etc, you live on the other side of that invisible line, so I hate you". Well, that, and the fact that if you lived next door and kept insulting me, I might just set your house on fire.

Another example: A single loony US citizen did myself or my family harm, I sure might hate that one guy...hell you might find bits of him covered in lye in my wine cellar... but I wouldn't run around going "gaaa Americans suck" since generally, they don't! We've all got our collection of loonies, so let's relax and chill a bit. All these threads are doing is turning us against each other (which I suppose is the point of some of the posts). I was a bit surprised Saint didn't lock down these threads, but he's right, free speech is a wonderful gift. I just don't know if enough thought is being put into what is being said...

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2004, 06:08:22 pm »
...the most sensible thing I've read in this whole thread. well done :)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2004, 07:23:07 pm »
...since I know that dieing is really not a word

 :)  true that
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2004, 09:48:47 pm »
Danny,

Bayer's research headquarters are in the US. That's where the money is at.   They charge us so your healthcare in can be cheaper. See? We are paying for all the research.  And that's one company. Not the 100's of other biotechs here in the US, which was my point in the first place.  The bulk of research isn't done in a socialist or communist setting, it's done in a capatalistic country for money.

 Your second link does more to prove my point than anything I could have wrote.

Quote
Cuba was the US 5th largest trading partner. the Us was their largest. how would YOU fair if suddenly your biggest trading partner (could that be CHINA by the way?) decided they didnt like you anymore?
 - We could probably get all of our jobs back making those cheap stuffed animals and McDonald land funmeal toys.  What a loss.

As far as Cuba, keyword there: was the US 5th.  Now they can't even afford good boats to escape Castro.  When you look at pictures of Cuba, see any new cars from in there?  Does that point seem to escape from this discussion? There are people escaping cuba on rafts because it's so bad. They are trying to get to the USA on anything they can.  Why is that?

How about this one :
Quote
to deny a country its revenue and THEN say 'look, their system doesn't work' is extremely childish.
 We call that foreign policy. You should look at your countrie's foreign policy and see just how similar they are. It's how the world works.

I have to say about Gun Control: No. We have enough. We have enough laws now, no more.   Now I know you will correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK, did they not continue regulation of guns until now the government went in and confiscated all the guns?  Now they can't have any?  

Personally, I'd like to see a law that says we can't pass anymore laws unless we get rid of one, maybe two.  

I didn't see bowling for columbine, and probably won't.  I don't see where we all should have fully auto weapons.  I did see 'red dawn'.  That's more in the sprit of what I am talking about. That's what the founding fathers had in mind.  They thought that if the new government became too oppressive, at least people could form militia and take care of it.  Some people have tried that.  We know who they are (were).  

There is only two things we ever really talk about.  Time and Money.  Who's time and / or who's money is all we really discuss.

I'm kinda swaying on the national healthcare thing myself to be truthful.  There's a lot of old guys at my work who can't retire for fear something will get them between the years Social security and Medicare start.  I can be swayed if the plan is right and the costs are offset.  

And I'm not attacking Canada or the Canadians.  I'm just saying that their system isn't our system.  They have decided their way and we have decided ours. We have a traditional system setup that works. It has flaws, but so do the other systems. We are used to the flaws and we try and fix them.
How do I know this? Well, I have had cancer and chemotherapy, my wife has a nurological disorder that has almost taken her life,  we had a child and paid all the bills there, and I had my appendix blow up one night.  Plus numerous car wrecks and stiches, etc.  My family's total lifetime medical bills are probably hitting close to $700,000 dollars American.  So I know a little about it.

I pay a lot of money personally for medical costs / insurance. Between my work's insurance and medicade taxes it comes out to well over $550 a month.  (That's like $675 Canadian or $620 euros isn't it?).  I'll quote the Beatles on this one - "so you say you want a revolution, well, we'd all love to see the plan"

Either way, it's the US that votes for the President of the United States.  It's our business, and that was my basic point.  We decide who's best for us, and we argue about it. You decide who's best for wherever you are at.  We don't talk about your politics and you don't talk about ours. I think that's very fair.

Some people think that the President went too far.  Some say he didn't do the right thing.  I've heard it in every adminstration I've been living under.

The last (and I mean last) thing I will comment on in these threads is the cheap shot -
Quote
this sort of attitude is why people like to fly planes into your buildings.

There were over 3000 people who died that day Danny. They weren't soldiers, they weren't politicians, they weren't evil. They were people like you and I who were at work making the money to get buy. A group of very commited fanatics who hate everything the west, and that means Austrailia too, stand for kill them. They cut the throat of women on planes with knives and killed innocent children.  They didn't like our helping Israel and how we don't bend down before them.

Unlike some of you, I never forget that. It's the whole reason we are in this mess.  If you all the Americans here want to take the chance that Kerry will continue the war on terror or do something Bush cannot, then by all means, vote your heart.

But I remember the President's speech on 9/18/01.  It was the best speech I have ever heard from any president. I believe that he is not acting out of any personal gratification or any vendetta.  I don't get the same vibe from Kerry.  I personally feel like he's a very political animal that is running for Kerry, not the people like GW is.  

That's my last word.




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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2004, 12:38:06 am »
Fredster,

For the last time, nobody is refuting the fact that our forty year boycot of Cuba has had a significant effect on the country.  We are informing you of the fact that the country still exists after forty years.  We are refuting your claim that a 30 day boycot of Canada would "bring their civilization to an end."

And while people of other countries cannot vote in our elections, surely you understand that they have a reasonable interest in American politics.  I like to think that American politics have some effect on the rest of the world.  We seem to take a great deal of interest in who will be the president of other countries.  Take Iraq, for example...

Speaking of Iraq...what exactly does Iraq have to do with this "war on terror" you are so concerned with.  You were taken with the 09-18-01 speech, but President Bush shifted the focus a bit, didn't he.  If I understand correctly it is Saddam Hussein who was captured, not Osama bin Laden.  If I understand correctly the bulk of our military is devoted to Iraq, rather than Afghanistan and the Taliban.  Shortly after our country recieved the most devastating attack in its history our leader decided to virtually ignore the attackers to bring war on a harmless country who's leader he held a grudge with.  Not to mention the blind eye he turned and continues to turn on Saudia Arabia, for obvious reasons (not the least of which being his family's pocket books), in spite of the fact that they supplied nearly all of the 9/11 murderers.

I don't see how Kerry could possibly do a worse job in the war on Al Queida.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2004, 12:40:42 am by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2004, 10:34:53 am »
Quote
Cuba was the US 5th largest trading partner. the Us was their largest. how would YOU fair if suddenly your biggest trading partner (could that be CHINA by the way?) decided they didnt like you anymore?
 - We could probably get all of our jobs back making those cheap stuffed animals and McDonald land funmeal toys.  What a loss.

As far as Cuba, keyword there: was the US 5th.  Now they can't even afford good boats to escape Castro.  When you look at pictures of Cuba, see any new cars from in there?  Does that point seem to escape from this discussion? There are people escaping cuba on rafts because it's so bad. They are trying to get to the USA on anything they can.  Why is that?

Have you ever been to Cuba?  As a Canadian, I've been there many times on holidays.  What a beautiful country.  Yes, they are a poor country.  But everyone in Cuba is on a equal playing field.  Education (Even University), Health Care and a bunch of other services are paid for by the State.  The main industry is tourist from Canada, Europe & Asia.  I can tell you, that as soon as the boycott is lifted, your going to see more and more hotels pop up and it's going to ruin the country.  Do you know they have am exact replica of the US Senate Building in downtown Havana?  It's something to see...


Quote
How do I know this? Well, I have had cancer and chemotherapy, my wife has a nurological disorder that has almost taken her life,  we had a child and paid all the bills there, and I had my appendix blow up one night.  Plus numerous car wrecks and stiches, etc.  My family's total lifetime medical bills are probably hitting close to $700,000 dollars American.  So I know a little about it.

I pay a lot of money personally for medical costs / insurance. Between my work's insurance and medicade taxes it comes out to well over $550 a month.  (That's like $675 Canadian or $620 euros isn't it?).  I'll quote the Beatles on this one - "so you say you want a revolution, well, we'd all love to see the plan"

I've glad your feeling better... But at a Canadian, you wouldn't have had to pay a thing.  Regardless if you use the system or not.  Sure I pay for a system I may never use, but at least I know if I need to... it's there.
And even though we may pay more in taxes to have a public health care system.. your actually paying more out of pocket considering your Insurance & Medicade costs.



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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2004, 04:24:41 pm »
even though we may pay more in taxes to have a public health care system.. your actually paying more out of pocket considering your Insurance & Medicade costs.

I already covered this, GGKoul.  You don't pay more in taxes for your healthcare system than we do.  You just have a system that doesn't suck.  You pay less in out-of-pocket AND you pay less in taxes.  Look at the first figures in those statistics I gave earlier.  The U.S. gov't spends more of our tax money, per capita, for healthcare than the Canadian government spends, per capita, on its citizens.  And the U.S. citizen, of course, still pays WAY MORE out-of-pocket for our healthcare than our northern neighbors.  It's ridiculous.  But the REALLY wierd thing is that we're actually PROUD of it.  We're proud of the fact that others pay one price for something and we pay three times as much for the same thing.  
« Last Edit: August 23, 2004, 04:27:36 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2004, 07:56:56 pm »
Isn't the First Amendment great?  God bless the Second Amendment too.  Bush in '04.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2004, 02:33:08 pm »
I've stayed out of the political discourses in an arcade controls forum, but I thought I would add something to this discussion.

I have a lot of Canadian friends...they are just like everyone else and if a group of Americans and Canadians are in a room, except for a few "ehs" you can't tell them apart.

As for stem cell research...it is NOT illegal in the US.  Goverment funding of new strains is.  Private investors, Universities under private grants, and anyone else can do all the research they want, just not with Government dollars.  I personnaly think this is more beneficial...see what it did to the Human Genome project.

As for the Health Care system in Canada, I only can go by what some of my friends say.  It is good...but not great and they come to the US for a lot of things due to the waiting time that they face in Canada.  Also, (and I'd have to check with the statistics) I beleive that the US spends quite a larger percentage of its tax revenues on Defense than Canada.  Canada does have an advantage in that their defensive armed forces are significantly reduced from what they would need to be (or would have needed to be) if it weren't for the US being below its border.  You can argue that we spend too much on Defense, but Canada does reap some of the reward.  (I am not trying to imply that Canada needs a body guard, only that it is a fringe benefit.)

As far as Bush being stupid...I do not understand why someone's speaking ability proves him to be stupid.  The very fact that he went to Yale and then was admitted and graduated from Harvard business school proves he is not stupid.  I know a lot of people will flame for that comment, but to say that his father's political influence got him into school, got him through it, into Harvard and through that is just silly.  Many, many, many people who go to Ivy League schools have influential families.  To say this gets them a free ride completely devalues these schools.  It is to say that everyone who got through them could have done it on influence alone.  I am sorry to tell all those who did not attend an Ivy League school (myself included) that the schools actually are better than other schools.   If you get through, you are not stupid.  Not saying that people who attend other schools aren't just as smart.  No matter how influential you father is, they do not hand out degrees.  Also, as far as his father's influence at the time (1968), his father was a junior Congressman from Texas, who lost two bids to the Senate.  His appointment as CIA director was a year after G.W. graduated from Business school.  All told, he was certainly not the most well connected person at Yale and certainly did not muster enough stroke to be handed a diploma from both Yale and Harvard.

I know half of you stopped reading a long time ago, but the fact remains, if you agree with a conservative approach to government, vote Bush.  If you agree with a liberal approach, vote Kerry.  Neither candidate or party is evil, stupid, bent on world domination, eats kitten, steps on puppies or cheats on their taxes.  OK, maybe both on the last one.

Sorry this was so long!  God bless the US and Canada (and Mexico too!)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #81 on: August 25, 2004, 01:13:52 am »
I have a lot of Canadian friends...they are just like everyone else and if a group of Americans and Canadians are in a room, except for a few "ehs" you can't tell them apart.
Quote
right there, everyone knows you're a flaming-pants liar.  A "few" ehs, RIIIIIIGHT!  Like, every other word is eh...the other one is "aboot", with a few "nice goal" comments thrown in there.  

What made you think that you could get that by me? ;) ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2004, 11:39:47 am by DrewKaree »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #82 on: August 25, 2004, 04:50:15 am »
My only thought is that it is terribly worrying that the world is in the hands of a few people, such as (nutcase) GW  :-\

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #83 on: August 25, 2004, 07:26:01 am »
Quote
That's absolutely correct.  I'm all about undermining the way of life in America, because I believe it could be a lot better.  I think it's important to destroy core values that suck.  The inferiority of blacks compared with whites was such a core value of America that the Constitution of the United States actually defines a black man as 3/5 of a person.   I don't care about the status quo, I care about right and wrong.

The Constitution of the US does not define an African American as "3/5 of a person".  For determining how many Representatives a district has, the number of slaves were counted as 3/5 of a person.  The delegates agreed that the Constitution would state that population would be determined by counting the number of "free Persons . . . plus three-fifths of all other Persons . . ."  The Northern "free" states wanted slaves to not be counted at all!  It would have been much better for the slaves if they were not considered people at all, because this would have given the South fewer representatives in Congress, and therefore less power in the US government, which would have allowed slavery to have been abolished much earlier.

Not meaning to argue any of your points...just making sure we all get facts, not legends.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #84 on: August 25, 2004, 09:23:42 am »
The Constitution of the US does not define an African American as "3/5 of a person".  

That's absurd.  The were considered property.  You make it sound like the northern states considered them lower than the southern states.  The only reason the northern states wanted them to not be counted is because the southern states wouldn't allow them to vote.  It's a little bit ridiculous to count them for purposes of representation if they couldn't even participate in voting for the person who was suposedly going to represent them.

Black people were completely dehumanized.  They were not considered people.  You might notice that  white women, who were also not allowed to vote, were counted as whole people.  To suggest that the consideration of blacks as inferior to whites was not a core American value in 1776 is ridiculous.  George Washington was probably the largest slaveholder in the country.  It was perfectly okay to kidnap thousands of people and enslave them.  It was not illegal to beat, rape or kill them.  The Civil War wasn't even fought until nearly a hundred years later and we still had legally segregated schools, many of the black schools having no running water, nearly two hundred years later.

It's meaningless to say, "Well, the Constitution doesn't say the ARE 3/5 of a person.  It only says we will COUNT them as 3/5 of a person."  It's the same thing.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #85 on: August 25, 2004, 11:54:42 am »
The Constitution of the US does not define an African American as "3/5 of a person".  

That's absurd.  The were considered property.  You make it sound like the northern states considered them lower than the southern states.  The only reason the northern states wanted them to not be counted is because the southern states wouldn't allow them to vote.  It's a little bit ridiculous to count them for purposes of representation if they couldn't even participate in voting for the person who was suposedly going to represent them.

Black people were completely dehumanized.  They were not considered people.  You might notice that  white women, who were also not allowed to vote, were counted as whole people.  To suggest that the consideration of blacks as inferior to whites was not a core American value in 1776 is ridiculous.  George Washington was probably the largest slaveholder in the country.  It was perfectly okay to kidnap thousands of people and enslave them.  It was not illegal to beat, rape or kill them.  The Civil War wasn't even fought until nearly a hundred years later and we still had legally segregated schools, many of the black schools having no running water, nearly two hundred years later.

It's meaningless to say, "Well, the Constitution doesn't say the ARE 3/5 of a person.  It only says we will COUNT them as 3/5 of a person."  It's the same thing.

Since the African American slavery and the North South thing was brought up....

The Confederate states went through all the proper channels to succeed from the Union, but that nutcase Lincoln decided to take the U.S. into an unjust war against the South.  Back then they killed him, today he is an American hero.  I'm just glad I'm smart enough to appreciate Bush as the hero he is now.  Don't worry, your kids' kids will learn and accept how great of man Bush was.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #86 on: August 25, 2004, 12:14:47 pm »
Shmokes,
  As I said, I was not arguing the point nor was I saying that at the time America was not incredulously racist.  The only point I was making is that they were defined as 3/5 of a person solely for counting representatives.  As a matter of fact, I was going to make reference to the point that the government did not consider them to be people at all, but thought my post was too long.  I was only trying to point out the historical inaccuracy that they were defined by the Constitution as 3/5 of a person.

My point with mentioning the North was exactly yours...the Northern free states did not want them to be counted, not because they were more racist than the south, but because they were less.  I thought it was clear, but sometimes what I write is clear to me but murky to others.

Believe me, I think racism was the worst example of man's inhumanity to man.  As Thomas Jefferson wrote regarding slavery, "Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just".

Peace.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 12:17:13 pm by fogman »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #87 on: August 25, 2004, 12:46:23 pm »
Since the African American slavery and the North South thing was brought up....

The Confederate states went through all the proper channels to succeed from the Union, but that nutcase Lincoln decided to take the U.S. into an unjust war against the South.  Back then they killed him, today he is an American hero.  I'm just glad I'm smart enough to appreciate Bush as the hero he is now.  Don't worry, your kids' kids will learn and accept how great of man Bush was.

The proper channels?  There weren't any proper channels.  Read the Constitution.  Seriously -- it's short.  It will take you all of half an hour to read the whole thing.  

Their rebellion against the federal government may have been justified (that's a matter of opinion), but it was certainly illegal.  While reading, pay particular attention to Article I Section 10, Article 4 Section 3, and Article 6 (6 is probably the most relevant to this discussion).  

Edit:  Here I'll help out:

Excerpt from Article 6 of the Constitution:

Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 12:51:33 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #88 on: August 25, 2004, 01:01:03 pm »
Shmokes,
  As I said, I was not arguing the point nor was I saying that at the time America was not incredulously racist.  The only point I was making is that they were defined as 3/5 of a person solely for counting representatives.  

Sorry Fogman...I get pretty fired up and defensive.  Still, I think you are largely wrong.  First, if they were considered people, rather than property, they would never have been defined as 3/5 of a person for any purpose, representation or anything else (and "solely for counting representatives" undervalues representation in a democracy in my opinion -- it seems like a pretty important thing to me).  

I think we agree that considering blacks inferior to whites was a core American value, shared by most at the time.   We are only quibbling about how explicit the Constitution was about it.  I bring up the constitution because if it weren't for the racist core value, the three-fifths clause would never have made it into the constitution at all.  And to define them as 3/5 of a person is to define them as 3/5 of a person, whether it's for counting representatives or because you're going to eat them for dinner.  Either way they are marginalized by the constitution.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 01:01:55 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #89 on: August 25, 2004, 01:05:14 pm »
You are wrong, any state can succeed from the union at any time as long as they do it by the book, which they did back then, and Arizona threatened to do a few years ago when Clinton started getting gun grab happy.

...and also I'd like to add...

France was against the American Army from attacking the South, they even helped the confederate army.

Long Live Bush and GOD bless America!

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #90 on: August 25, 2004, 05:25:24 pm »
You are wrong, any state can succeed from the union at any time as long as they do it by the book, which they did back then, and Arizona threatened to do a few years ago when Clinton started getting gun grab happy.

...and also I'd like to add...

France was against the American Army from attacking the South, they even helped the confederate army.

Long Live Bush and GOD bless America!


Oh....I am wrong.  Well, why didn't you say so?  When you put it like that I must admit you make a pretty strong argument.  What was I thinking pointing to the Constitution.  Who needs legal documents when you can just claim something and it becomes so?  

The closest you can possibly come to a document legitimizing secession from a legal standpoint would be the Declaration of Independence, where we seceded from Great Britain.  Of course, at best, the Declaration of Independence suggests that we fundamentally believe in secession from a repressive government, but it certainly isn't law.  And even if it were law at the time, which it wasn't, it would have been succeeded and nullified by the Constitution, as the Articles of Confederation were.  And we did fight a little war to go along with the Declaration of Independence in case you're unclear on how easy that secession was.  

Jefferson may have believed in the state's right to secede, but that viewpoint never made it into the Constitution (many ideas were discussed at the Constitutional convention that were abandoned in favor of coming up with a document that could be ratified).

And I guess, if you want to add the secession of Arizona to the debate, I have to add the 14th Amendment to your reading material, since it also makes clear that secession is illegal (but, of course, it didn't exist at the time of the Civil War).

edit: Long live Clinton and SATAN bless America!  ::)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2004, 07:19:31 pm by shmokes »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2004, 04:38:18 am »

 Shortly after our country recieved the most devastating attack in its history our leader decided to virtually ignore the attackers to bring war on a harmless country who's leader he held a grudge with.  


Shmokes,
Since the discussion has now turned to slavery, racism, 2/3 of a person, etc.  I couldn't help notice your previous post.

Iraq is a harmless country with a leader whose only problem is that GW has a grudge against him??  I suppose that's true if you consider a woman to be nothing more than a piece of property.  If it's OK to slaughter your own countrymen for having a different religious belief.  If you think it is a fitting punishment to chop off the hand of a convicted thief.  I don't call that harmless.

It all comes down to morals.  Ideally, we should let other countries do whatever they feel is ok, since we don't have to live by their laws.  But it just doesn't work that way.  When a leader like that tramples all over moral standards that we expect all humans to adhere to, it's time to step in.

Ok, I'll stop now so my bleeding heart doesn't ruin my nice Russian flag t-shirt and interrrupt me sipping my latte (thanks Mr. Curmudgeon, that's one of my favorites now!!).

BTW, I support your argument that is is actually ENJOYABLE to debate politics, and I look forward to hearing your replies.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2004, 09:26:43 am »
Iraq is a harmless country with a leader whose only problem is that GW has a grudge against him??  I suppose that's true if you consider a woman to be nothing more than a piece of property.  If it's OK to slaughter your own countrymen for having a different religious belief.  If you think it is a fitting punishment to chop off the hand of a convicted thief.  

actually under Saddam women enjoyed much more freedom than those in say, Iran. Saddam wasn't big on the religeous side of things. his foreign minister- Teriq Aziz for instance, was a christian!! . Iraqi women could go to uni, didnt have to cover up and even were allowed to drive cars  :o  Not including the happless Kurds of course. Those poor ---daisies--- have been bombed and attacked by the British, the Turks AND Saddam.

As for corporal and capital punishment, don't they also chop off hands, heads etc in many other middle east countries too? like Dubyas pals in saudi arabia?


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2004, 11:25:48 am »
actually under Saddam women enjoyed much more freedom than those in say, Iran. Saddam wasn't big on the religeous side of things. his foreign minister- Teriq Aziz for instance, was a christian!! . Iraqi women could go to uni, didnt have to cover up and even were allowed to drive cars  :o  Not including the happless Kurds of course. Those poor ---daisies--- have been bombed and attacked by the British, the Turks AND Saddam.

As for corporal and capital punishment, don't they also chop off hands, heads etc in many other middle east countries too? like Dubyas pals in saudi arabia?

 ;) I'm so disappointed you beat me to that Danny.

Mameotron, I don't think Saddam was a nice guy.  When I referred to him as harmless I meant that he was harmless to us, and to his neighbors, for that matter.

But when it comes to his own people Saddam was a damn good leader as middle eastern leaders go.  Already women in Iraq are resigned to the fact that they will no longer be able to attend Universities.  What in god's name were we thinking to turn Iraq over to be run as a religeous state?  In five years Iraq will be another Iran.   Before Saddam Iraq was in turmoil.  He kept things relatively calm.  He ran a secular state and was extremely progressive on civil rights (including women's rights), as middle-eastern countries go.

If you want to talk about going to war with a country over poor civil rights, where are we with our friends in Saudi Arabia (considering all your examples -- women's rights, chop off hands, etc.) seem to have come from there?  

Where have we been in Sudan, where our politicians refuse to use the word genocide since that would essentially commit us to sending over forces and correct the problem.  The attrocities going on in Darfur are seriously discusting.  Check it out.  Iraq was nothing -- a shell of a nation.  They were a threat to nobody.  Saddam had incorporated more western ideas, secularism, relatively equal rights, etc. than the vast majority of middle eastern countries.  We are there for a grudge and oil.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2004, 11:55:26 am »
Where have we been in Sudan, where our politicians refuse to use the word genocide since that would essentially commit us to sending over forces and correct the problem.  The attrocities going on in Darfur are seriously discusting.  Check it out.
we're waiting for France to lead the charge, or at least a coalition of the willing.

Countries other than Britain, Spain, Poland, Ackmanistan, Turdsbeckistan, and Whowantstolivethere-stan.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2004, 03:01:46 pm »
we're waiting for France to lead the charge, or at least a coalition of the willing.

Really, when did we develop an aversion to acting unilaterally?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #96 on: August 26, 2004, 08:16:58 pm »
Really, when did we develop an aversion to acting unilaterally?
a few years ago, I heard.  Something about "Save a horse, ride a cowboy" and all.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2004, 06:22:09 am »
actually under Saddam women enjoyed much more freedom than those in say, Iran. Saddam wasn't big on the religeous side of things. his foreign minister- Teriq Aziz for instance, was a christian!! . Iraqi women could go to uni, didnt have to cover up and even were allowed to drive cars  :o  Not including the happless Kurds of course. Those poor ---daisies--- have been bombed and attacked by the British, the Turks AND Saddam.

As for corporal and capital punishment, don't they also chop off hands, heads etc in many other middle east countries too? like Dubyas pals in saudi arabia?

 ;) I'm so disappointed you beat me to that Danny.

Mameotron, I don't think Saddam was a nice guy.  When I referred to him as harmless I meant that he was harmless to us, and to his neighbors, for that matter.

But when it comes to his own people Saddam was a damn good leader as middle eastern leaders go.  Already women in Iraq are resigned to the fact that they will no longer be able to attend Universities.  What in god's name were we thinking to turn Iraq over to be run as a religeous state?  In five years Iraq will be another Iran.   Before Saddam Iraq was in turmoil.  He kept things relatively calm.  He ran a secular state and was extremely progressive on civil rights (including women's rights), as middle-eastern countries go.

If you want to talk about going to war with a country over poor civil rights, where are we with our friends in Saudi Arabia (considering all your examples -- women's rights, chop off hands, etc.) seem to have come from there?  

Where have we been in Sudan, where our politicians refuse to use the word genocide since that would essentially commit us to sending over forces and correct the problem.  The attrocities going on in Darfur are seriously discusting.  Check it out.  Iraq was nothing -- a shell of a nation.  They were a threat to nobody.  Saddam had incorporated more western ideas, secularism, relatively equal rights, etc. than the vast majority of middle eastern countries.  We are there for a grudge and oil.


OK, let me fan the flames a little more.  I happen to think this article sums it up nicely.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40159

EDIT - heehee, I just read the article (link on right top) about Allah and his spiders.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2004, 06:26:31 am by Mameotron »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2004, 07:13:00 am »
Dammit, DrewKaree, the more I read your posts the more I realize I actually agree with you on a lot of things...


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2004, 07:22:02 am »
Dammit, DrewKaree, the more I read your posts the more I realize I actually agree with you on a lot of things...



be careful. he's trying to draw you into the 'dark side'  :o

and besides, drew runs like a girl...


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2004, 08:54:58 am »
He does run like a girl.  I've seen it.  It's revolting.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2004, 09:35:10 am »
I agree with hulkster about Triumph the insult Dog.
As far as hockey goes I am a big fan and if it weren't for hockey night in canada there would be nowhere good to watch the red wings. I have nothing against canada accept you have free health care but because of it your health care system is just as jacked up as ours. I know a man who lived in canda who broke his neck and was losing the feeling in his right hand. He was going to have to wait 2-3 weeks just to get x-rays in canada. Luckily his wife worked at a hospital in detroit and kept her health insurance.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2004, 09:41:21 am »
I know a man who lived in canda who broke his neck and was losing the feeling in his right hand. He was going to have to wait 2-3 weeks just to get x-rays in canada. Luckily his wife worked at a hospital in detroit and kept her health insurance.

Are you sure about that?  If he went to the hospital, they would have x-rayed him at the hospital.  If he went to his family doctor, then the family doctor would have told him of a x-ray clinic to go for his x-rays and come back to the family doctor.







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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2004, 11:46:59 am »
Yeah I'm sure he went to the hospital. I'm sure this isn't the usual treatment someone with a broken neck gets I'm just saying canadas health care system does have problems of its own.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #104 on: August 28, 2004, 12:36:05 am »
Dammit, DrewKaree, the more I read your posts the more I realize I actually agree with you on a lot of things...
just you wait, I'll have you wearing a sealskin coat while driving your SUV and spraying hairspray out the window, running over trees, splashing water on homeless as you drive by, and stopping your SUV only to take food from children and old people.

Oh, and I'll also teach you how to run like a girl  ;D

Check out my "Real America" sig.  That's the guy I usually take my marching orders from.  I haven't found the Goose Step tutorial on the site yet, but I've been told it HAS to be on there somewhere. ;)  If he's on a station in your area, give him a listen.  The only thing required is to bring your sense of humor; humorless people need not apply, you'll only require yards and yards of duct tape (you'll get that joke after listening to him for a while).

...and besides, drew runs like a girl...
He does run like a girl.  I've seen it.  It's revolting.
ya know, when you're caught with the video on your pc and various lotions and "paraphenelia" strewn about, you lose all credibility and the ability to try to spin my girl-like running ability as a BAD thing.  

Preverts ;)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2004, 12:41:22 am by DrewKaree »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #105 on: August 28, 2004, 01:45:50 am »
Glenn Beck Rocks!

Love the funny voices.. especially the retarded one.

sarcasm and common sense


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #106 on: August 28, 2004, 03:39:27 am »
Quote

be careful. he's trying to draw you into the 'dark side'  :o

and besides, drew runs like a girl...
Quote

Yes, I've just traded in my VW microbus and bought a new hybrid SUV.  It runs on gas... and more gas!! (Dennis Miller joke)

I don't know about running like a girl, my arms are still frozen in the tree-hugging position.  Mmmm, the sealskin coat looks inviting...

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #107 on: August 28, 2004, 12:13:26 pm »
I agree with hulkster about Triumph the insult Dog.
As far as hockey goes I am a big fan and if it weren't for hockey night in canada there would be nowhere good to watch the red wings. I have nothing against canada accept you have free health care but because of it your health care system is just as jacked up as ours. I know a man who lived in canda who broke his neck and was losing the feeling in his right hand. He was going to have to wait 2-3 weeks just to get x-rays in canada. Luckily his wife worked at a hospital in detroit and kept her health insurance.

Dude, no offense, but that is absolute rubbish.  I worked in a hospital for 10 years here, my wife was an emergency room nurse for 14 years, and some of our best friends are doctors and lawyers.  If someone broke his neck they would have him in that x-ray room so fast it would make his neck snap (ha ha).  

 Remember we DO have lawyers here, and I can assure you that if someone had to wait weeks to get an xray on a broken neck he would sue the living hell out the emergency room, the staff, the doctors and the CEO of the corporation.  I think your "source" on this story is pulling your leg.  Did he tell you we live in igloos and drive around snow dogs?  Or maybe told you we all say eh every other word and talk about nothing but the playoffs?  I mean, really, that's the kind of nonsense I hear on vacation: "I hear you guys just got color tv's up there in Canada!"
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #108 on: August 29, 2004, 11:43:48 am »
You tell 'em eh!  Go Leafs!  Next playoffs I get to see what color their uniforms really are, eh!  I heard they are blue, but all I ever see is those dark grey and white ones eh.  

I'm from Wisonsin, aina, and we're just a few miles from Da Great White Nort, der, an' I don't mind all the igloos and snowshoes (in the summer they're cumbersome, though).  I betcha youse got great ice fishin' year round up dere, though.

 ;D

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #109 on: August 29, 2004, 02:02:22 pm »
My dog sled is in the shop.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #110 on: August 29, 2004, 03:54:57 pm »
I agree with hulkster about Triumph the insult Dog.
As far as hockey goes I am a big fan and if it weren't for hockey night in canada there would be nowhere good to watch the red wings. I have nothing against canada accept you have free health care but because of it your health care system is just as jacked up as ours. I know a man who lived in canda who broke his neck and was losing the feeling in his right hand. He was going to have to wait 2-3 weeks just to get x-rays in canada. Luckily his wife worked at a hospital in detroit and kept her health insurance.

Dude, no offense, but that is absolute rubbish.  I worked in a hospital for 10 years here, my wife was an emergency room nurse for 14 years, and some of our best friends are doctors and lawyers.  If someone broke his neck they would have him in that x-ray room so fast it would make his neck snap (ha ha).  

 Remember we DO have lawyers here, and I can assure you that if someone had to wait weeks to get an xray on a broken neck he would sue the living hell out the emergency room, the staff, the doctors and the CEO of the corporation.  I think your "source" on this story is pulling your leg.  Did he tell you we live in igloos and drive around snow dogs?  Or maybe told you we all say eh every other word and talk about nothing but the playoffs?  I mean, really, that's the kind of nonsense I hear on vacation: "I hear you guys just got color tv's up there in Canada!"

Yeah my post was worded wrong. They didn't know he had a broken neck it just hurt and he was losing the felling in his hand. The hospital told him it was going to take 2-3 weeks to see a radiologist.

I live in Michigan, I go to canada often I know you don't live in igloos drinking molsen while watching hockey and saying eh. I was just pointing your health care system isn't as perfect as it is made out to be.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #111 on: August 29, 2004, 08:05:12 pm »
Ah, that makes more sense.  Yeah our waiting periods for non life-threatening injuries are quite silly.  Pinched nerves and things like that are sometimes fluffed off.  My intention wasn't to defend our health care system (hell I make money, I'd pay for better/faster service), but to dispell the illusion that we would let a guy walk around with a broken neck for weeks.  If you'd even seen our guys in action on a trauma case, you would be impressed.  It's the customer service that sucks.  They'll patch you back together just fine, just don't expect a "thank you, come again!"

(You're more likely to get a "now don't be so stupid next time you idiot, you almost killed yourself, and even worse, you ruined my coffee break!!") :)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #112 on: August 29, 2004, 11:05:43 pm »
You’re always in control of your behavior. Sometimes you just control yourself
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #113 on: August 30, 2004, 10:09:30 am »
Drew,

 Thanks for the link and I am glad its not aboot the Canadians


 ;D

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #114 on: August 30, 2004, 10:19:27 am »
Take Off You Hoser!  

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #115 on: August 30, 2004, 10:21:24 am »
You forgot the Eh

haha

No hard feelings after all you did give us hockey, Panela Anderson,  and Bob and Dave McKenzie eh.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 10:25:18 am by Gozur »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #116 on: August 30, 2004, 02:40:12 pm »
Heh...what do you mean "no hard feelings"?  If it weren't for Pamela Anderson I would support going to WAR with Canada for giving us Celine Dion.  Nothing Canada has ever produced makes up for Celine Dion, with the single exception of Pamela Anderson.

You owe a great deal to her and should be supremely saddened by her recent American citizenship.  What a loss.

It's a helluva gain for us, though!   :P
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #117 on: August 30, 2004, 02:49:40 pm »
I forgot Celine. Damn why did you have to bring that up?

Maybe we should anex Cannadia and make it a state. We could use another Southern state. (obviously joking)




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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #118 on: August 30, 2004, 05:41:03 pm »
Ahem, that's Bob and DOUG McKenzie.

Celine is from Quebec, and they don't consider themselves Canadians, so don't blame us for that!!
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #119 on: August 30, 2004, 06:02:13 pm »
...no hard feelings after all you did give us hockey, Panela Anderson,  and Bob and Dave McKenzie eh.
sorry to go all 5th grade and all but...


I have "hard feelings" about Pamela Anderson ;)

*snicker*

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2004, 09:11:53 pm »
Go 'Canes!  Leafs suck!  

Something we can agree on.. The Leafs do suck.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #121 on: August 31, 2004, 12:09:09 pm »
I'll vote for whoever makes sure there's hockey this season.  As to hulker's earlier posts, I'm also very much in favor of boobs.  and the guy who jumped his ass.....don't you like boobs?   it made me chuckle in between all the anger in the posts, and reminded me that boobs are really more important than politics.  

There was a post from HC in this thread that I even thought was okay.  The wold all seems good when you can agree with HC.  ;)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #122 on: August 31, 2004, 08:16:35 pm »
St Lous' one good contribution to this world is Budweiser.  Even though I live in Miller Land, ANY flavor is a good contribution.  Oh, and they have the bowling hall of fame....and the arch...but other than that, nothing...so the Blues suck. ;)  Go Red Wings.  Or Blackhawks.


Oh, and click here for the ONLY reason you need TO vote for GW.  ;D
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2004, 09:18:36 pm by DrewKaree »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #123 on: August 31, 2004, 08:47:53 pm »
Go Wings and if they suck my second favorite is the leaves

Good old Hockey Town even though I live in a suburb and we currently have a better basketball team and we kind of gave ourselves that title.

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« Last Edit: August 31, 2004, 08:48:52 pm by Yander »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2004, 02:55:59 am »
on topic  :o  :

"Bush is struggling to escape the distinction of being the first president since the Depression-era Herbert Hoover to finish a term with job losses. With 1.7 million jobs created over the last year, the economy is still down 913,000 jobs overall since he took office"
I have no such belief that he is struggling with this distinction.  I believe he is quite fine if that happens, and life will not end for him...the "water off a duck's back", as it were.  "I will let time tell whether or not I was a good president" is his attitude, the blips and bumps aren't something he gets into a tizzy over.  It's the "larger picture" syndrome.  

Still, wars aren't something the whole country pitches in to fight, yet they do affect jobs.  He's down 913,000?  That'll change before the end of his term.  Judge him then.  I'll still be fine with how many jobs he's down from beginning to end.

Why would I be fine with that?  The employment statistics we've used to judge our presidents mysteriously changed between Clinton and Bush.  When it was Clinton in office, the unemployment rate was touted as the big thing.  Now it's the number of jobs.  

I'll be happy either way, as I'm not unemployed, my company has increased jobs, and I'm getting paid more.  Selfish?  You betcha.  That's why I look at Bush as the guy for me.  Same reason as others look at Bush as this terrible president.  The difference?  I'm not so addle-brained as to think Bush is responsible for me having or not having a job.  

I believe his job is to make sure I get to keep more of the money I work so hard for.  I don't care if it's (as Dems were so fond of pointing out) "not even enough to buy a new muffler for your car".  I worked for it, so gimme my friggen muffler.  I'LL be the one to decide where my "extra"  ::) ::) ::) money goes, either in charitable giving, spending to increase my standard of living - thereby boosting our economy, or giving a street beggar a fin or two.  

I also don't need him to increase our "minimum wage".  That's a fallacy used strictly for political purposes.  It's lunacy to think increasing a business' cost WON'T be passed on to the customer, thereby making the cost of goods and services higher, negating the "increase" in minimum wage.  

I don't agree with a bunch of Bush's policies regarding the programs he wishes to implement.  No politician in the world will meet all of your needs, otherwise they wouldn't be called politicians.   ;D

I'm voting for Bush because it's a wasted vote throwing it at Nader, Kerry isn't even an option no matter how many times he agrees with my position before he disagrees with it, and until they revamp our  system for other parties besides the two main ones, any other vote is a fringe vote best used only in an election you feel won't be closely contested or where you feel your vote is useless anyway (see shmokes' Utah example for what I mean) so you might as well throw it out.  

I agree with Bush on several points, the most important being the way he views this "war on terror".  To change the direction our country has taken and to subvert our nation's interests in order to curry favor with the rest of the world and win the approval of supposed allies in France, Russia, and Germany is, in my opinion, the worst thing we could do.

I would normally vote Libertarian, did so in the last two elections.   Will I make concessions and compromises voting for Bush?  Certainly.  But I won't be selling my soul by votig for Bush.  Even though some can think of 1000 reasons to vote against Bush, I have just a few vital ones (to me) to vote FOR him, and not a single one of them are "He's not Kerry".  


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2004, 11:53:32 am »
wow.. I thought this thread was dead.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2004, 11:51:19 pm »
wow.. I thought this thread was dead.
threads only die when questions posed in them are answered, or if people are tired of posting to them.  

I just KNEW you weren't tired of this one!

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #127 on: September 08, 2004, 05:13:05 am »

Why would I be fine with that?  The employment statistics we've used to judge our presidents mysteriously changed between Clinton and Bush.  When it was Clinton in office, the unemployment rate was touted as the big thing.  Now it's the number of jobs.  




I thought I was the only one who saw it that way.  People today sure don't want to hear about the unemployment rate.

Hmm, let me think, now what president was responsible for passing NAFTA, which allows companies today to move so many jobs overseas and contribute to this "staggering job loss rate" under Bush?

I'm a firm believer in the trickle-down theory, and bad things also trickle down.

Don't even get me started on the unions.  They demand so much in pay and benefits and wonder why companies are relocating somewhere cheaper.  Yes, you can do a handy search and see that I posted in another thread that I was a union Ironworker for seven years.  I am not anymore.  Too much greed & politics, not enough genuine concern over the views of the members.

Did I mention that I was once pulled off a job because I refused to sign the "voluntary" contribution papers to give part of what I earned to whatever political candidate my union wanted to back?

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #128 on: September 08, 2004, 11:45:38 am »
My 2 cents:

Unions were good in the early 1900's when people & children worked like dogs under dangerous conditions and got little pay.  As they needed to group together too make changes.  But today, Unions protect the high salary "lazy" worker way too much.  And it's this High Salary, that forces a company's hand to move to find cheaper labour.  Sure this isn't right, but as a shareholder of a company.  The company should to everything in it's power too reduce it's expenses.

Hate to say this, but Wal-mart is the retail giant that it is because it doesn't allow unions in any of its locations.  On the other hand, Costco, I used to work for them while University.  Costco offers a high hourly wage for it's employees.  And whenever a union trys to come into Costco, it usually fails.  As Costco takes care of there employee's from the beginning.  Heck, I know people with University & College Degrees that have been working at Costco over 10 years now.  And they work as F/T Cashiers or Fork Lift drivers and they make close to $50,000/year Cdn @ $43,000/year US.  

I work in the IT field.  And I now have to talk to a programmer in India for enhancements.  As the company can hire 3 programmers in India for the price of 1 programmer in Canada.  With the ever increasing pressure for companies to shave expenses, this is going to happen a lot more in the future.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2004, 11:48:28 am by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #129 on: September 09, 2004, 03:48:48 am »
 And they work as F/T Cashiers or Fork Lift drivers and they make close to $50,000/year Cdn @ $43,000/year US.  


i've got a forklift licence. hang on!! i'm coming over  ;D


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #130 on: September 15, 2004, 01:23:03 am »
OOh, I'm not letting this thread die until after the election!!

Today John Kerry unveiled his master plan to combat the cost of prescription drugs.  He plans to import them from Canada.

Wow, I guess the American drug companies will just play along with that and continue to sell drugs to other countries at a much lower price.  Certainly the price of drugs won't suddenly increase in Canada.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #131 on: September 15, 2004, 12:42:03 pm »
I think I have answer to this low cost drug thing.

Drugs made in the US should be sold to other countries at a higher cost than we buy them for.  That will stop all this importation nonsense.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2004, 11:27:08 am »
I think I like my idea better.  After all, it doesn't matter to the socialized medicine people.  It would level the playing field out wouldn't it?

I wonder why we spend so much.  Maybe because everybody else isn't getting charged enough.


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2004, 06:26:41 pm »
I think I have answer to this low cost drug thing.

Drugs made in the US should be sold to other countries at a higher cost than we buy them for.  That will stop all this importation nonsense.



You think this would be fact...

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2004, 09:58:08 pm »
Well, I don't understand how we let our companies like Eli Lilly send these drugs abroad and then turn around and send them back cheaper than they can sell it at the local pharmacy.

To me it's lunacy.  If it costs $100 in the US and $75 in Canada, why? Because we are the target market? Why should the US foot the bill for all the research in the world? If there is a new drug, then why doesn't everybody pay $100?

It makes no sense to me why we let this happen in the first place.  If we charged EVERYBODY the same for a while then we reduce price to the same level, then we all pay the same all the time and the field is level.

There must be some logical marketing reason for this, but I haven't been able to find it in my research. It makes no sense to me at all why Canada would be charged less than the US.  (not picking on Canada, it could be any country including Mexico).

If we are such a world community then we should all chip in equally in this right?

What is the reason the US price is higher when we developed the drugs?  
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2004, 11:00:22 pm »
hey, or you could just trade it for all the drugs you IMPORT- coke, ecstasy, heroin, marijuana....

 ;)
yeah, we could, but then the debate would be about providing heroin, hash, coke, etc for all the seniors and adding it into our prescription drug "solution".  

I'd say legalize those things, and then start taxing the import of them, but then I'd have to sit through INSANE debate about how those drugs aren't the main contributor in the increase in gun deaths - we just need more gun controls/bans because there'd be no correlating link between those drugs and violent crime...well, other than facts  ::)

But I'm down with your idea danny....how much should we start charging Canada for heroin and coke after we make the trade? ;)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2004, 11:53:06 pm »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #137 on: September 17, 2004, 10:40:03 am »
GGKoul,

I see that article, but it doesn't explain one thing - why does the US pay more for drugs than Canada in the first place?  Is it volume pricing?

Is the distribution network the cause?  Why is that these drugs can be cheaper to the Canadians than us?  

If it's volume and distribution, I don't see how we can't correct that error here by making the necessary changes to the distribution system and either decrease our consumer prices by increasing the volume price overseas or flat out fix the price to everybody.

That way anybody who uses these products worldwide pay the same rate.  If all the countries paid the price for the research then after a short time the price could be reduced to everyone.

I think there is some special interest groups in the US that are manipulating the US market.  

But I am looking for the explaination of why it's higher here.  I couldn't find that in my research.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2004, 10:50:35 am »
Here's the reason...

Canada Caps Drug Costs

Canadians are spared higher drug prices, in large part because of price controls. The Canadian government has established a "Patented Medicine Prices Review Board" to ensure drug prices are not excessive.

"They look at the price of the drug," said Dr. Allan Detsky, a pharmacoeconomist at the University of Toronto, "and they say, 'You know what, we have no idea what the long-run costs of development are, but they can't possibly be that high. Forget it.' "

The review board has established a very specific formula for drug companies wishing to sell in Canada:

   Existing drugs cannot increase in price by more than the rate of inflation.

   New drugs cannot cost more than similar drugs for the same illness.

   And a breakthrough drug, the first of a new class of drugs, cannot cost more than the median price for the drug in other countries.

For example, the new cancer drug Campath is priced as follows:

   United States: $2,400

   France: $760

   Sweden $660

   Britain $570

   Italy $500

The median, or "midprice," is $660, so Canadian regulations say that's the most the drug can sell for in Canada.

"It tells you that the true long-run cost of production must be way lower than the American price," said Detsky.


U.S. Alone in No Price Controls

Every industrialized country has some form of price controls on patented medications, except the United States. American drug companies say price controls stifle innovation and discourage them from selling certain drugs in foreign markets.

"The principal problem with price controls is you have limitations on access to medicines, and you don't have the newest most innovative treatments," said Alan Holmer, president and CEO of Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America.

But when pressed, representatives of the pharmaceutical industry could only identify eight drugs not available on Canadian shelves, and three of those are contraceptives. That's not enough to bother many Canadians.

"I don't mind," said Ireland. "I think we have a pretty good selection."

And much of that selection consists of American-made drugs, at well below American prices.


Examples:

   Mirapex, for Parkinson's disease: $157 in Canada vs. $263 in the United States.

   Celexa, for depression: $149 in Canada vs. $253 in the United States.

   Diovan, for high blood pressure: $149 in Canada vs. $253 in the United States.

   Oxazepam, for insomnia: $13 in Canada vs. $70 in the United States.

   Seroquel, for insomnia: $33 in Canada vs. $124 in the United States

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2004, 01:53:41 pm »
Yeah but you're Canada, and they're Ireland and France and Italy.  And we're America.  So whatever way we are doing it must be best because look how much better we are then everyone else.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #140 on: September 17, 2004, 02:01:37 pm »
Yeah but you're Canada, and they're Ireland and France and Italy.  And we're America.  So whatever way we are doing it must be best because look how much better we are then everyone else.

OK... I wasn't aware that the US way of doing things is the best way to do things...  

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #141 on: September 17, 2004, 04:11:56 pm »
You are right. IF the other countries won't pay, I guess we don't sell.

Artificial price caps seemed to work real great in California with energy.  It collapsed the entire power grid.

If we cap the price of meds then I guess they don't develop new ones.

So, we sell it for a fixed price that includes development.  If the governments don't buy it I guess we pay more?  Or do the goverments pay the same price as us?

I think we need to look at this and see if there is a good way to balance the playerfield.  This is absolutely wrong that the drug companies can do this to Americans.  Wrong.  

If it's made in the US, it should be the cheapest here and all the other countries pay the same or more.  Not the other way around.



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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #142 on: September 17, 2004, 06:18:54 pm »
If it's made in the US, it should be the cheapest here and all the other countries pay the same or more.  Not the other way around.

It's cheaper to by alot of things in Canada then in the US.  IE:  If you goto the GAP or Old Navy, the price you pay in US$ for Knaki <sp> pants, is EXACTLY the same I pay in CDN$.   So I pay $40 CDN = @ $32 US and you pay $40 US, which is @ $52 CDN.




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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #143 on: September 17, 2004, 09:54:10 pm »
fredster, the insane tax burden they pay probably pays for a large portion of the difference between what the drugs cost and what they sell them for up nort der hey, because obviously, the price controls don't apply to purchasing them from us, just what they resell them for.  

Think about it....if you paid less, why would you want to investigate why is costs you less?  And you're also asking them to put 2 & 2 together...higher taxes...more "free" stuff.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #144 on: September 17, 2004, 10:49:08 pm »
Good Point Drew.

They have no idea what it really costs them.

I only pay $20 for a pair of pants at Old navy.  That's where we are getting them.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #145 on: September 18, 2004, 03:10:10 am »
GGKoul,


I think there is some special interest groups in the US that are manipulating the US market.  



I think you're exactly right.  It's easy to look back and see how they have done so in the past.  A good example is the "railroad barons" earlier.

Senator Henry G. Davis (W. Virginia, circa 1870) actually got a law passed in congress that allowed him the right to build his railroad anywhere he saw fit to do so.  If he wanted to build right through your property, the only legal recourse you had was to take him to court to see that you were paid a fair market value for the property he siezed.  It was also specifically noted that while the case was tied up in litigation Mr. Davis had the right to continue building.

I'm not suggesting that anything so extreme would be tolerated today, but we have a long history of leveraging the government to help our business.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #146 on: September 18, 2004, 10:25:33 am »
The lobbiers strike again!



« Last Edit: September 18, 2004, 10:25:50 am by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #147 on: September 18, 2004, 10:01:51 pm »
I have softened on the national healtcare issue.  I have seen a lot of people stay working way past when they wanted to because of healthcare.

I don't think the canadian model is what we want.  I see a lot of debate on how we can get there, but it will be a huge battle. I can see the points on both sides.

I have heath insurance, and have always had health insurance because I always looked for it as a benefit.  Some people don't seem to look for that in a prospective employer.  But it does cost me to have it more and more every year. That coupled with Medicare charges, FICA taxes, etc is building up a lot of funds out of my pocket.

I understand the UK model is a good one.  There's more of a choice than the Canadian one.  You can pay and have extra insurance to have more of a choice in timing and doctors that way.

I just don't trust the government to manage things that large.  If any of you have ever worked for a big organization you can see it gets out of control fast when it's big. The bigger it is the more wasteful it becomes simply because it takes so much effort to keep it lean and effiecient.

If we were assured that we could have a decent choice at the same or lower price without the governmental red tape, I'd sign on.  But I believe in Smaller government, not bigger, and it would have to be something that would work out without adding an entire cabinet level department.

This is getting pretty bad now. Lawsuits to doctors costing money to everybody, medicines costing a small fortune, people unable to pay hospital bills, illegal aliens costing us a fortune in expenses, and all the rest.

I want to be able to retire as early as possible, but I won't be able to for the simple reason I won't be covered on any healthcare plan.  I'll have to pay a good portion of my income to insurance.  If I don't I risk one trip to the hospital costing me my entire "estate".  My brother had a tripple bypass surgery when he "retired" at 57 that at 63 drove him to loose just about everything he had.  

So like I said before, if say you want a revolution, hey, we'd all love to see the plan.  
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #148 on: September 19, 2004, 11:59:33 am »
You really like that Beatles line, don't you Fred?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #149 on: September 20, 2004, 08:40:15 am »
Yeah, Yeah I do.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #150 on: September 20, 2004, 03:45:43 pm »
GGKoul,

What do you think of this article, is it fact or fiction?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132785,00.html
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #151 on: September 20, 2004, 08:10:40 pm »
Judging by the source, I have my suspicions...
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #152 on: September 20, 2004, 11:13:00 pm »
No, Shmokes, Dan Rather works for CBS, not Fox.

Did you read it?  I was wondering.  I talk to people from Canada, most that I talk to have some problems with the system, but not to the level detailed in this editorial.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #153 on: September 21, 2004, 12:19:14 am »
GGKoul,

What do you think of this article, is it fact or fiction?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132785,00.html

Ok.  Here are my thoughts about the article:


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #154 on: September 21, 2004, 08:57:40 am »
Those are good responses.  Thanks.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #155 on: September 21, 2004, 01:04:12 pm »
Those are good responses.  Thanks.



Thanks

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #156 on: September 21, 2004, 02:56:24 pm »
I don't know what hospital you people are going to, but I commonly wait for hours before being seen when I go to the hospital (not that I go to the hopital that often).  During cold season I sit in the lobby of my doctor's office anywhere between half an hour to 2 hours and commonly wait another 15 minutes to 45 minutes after I'm taken back into a clinic room.

My dermitologist ALWAYS schedules 1 to 2 months in advance.  I can't see a speciallist, such as an ear, nose and throat doctor without first going to a general practitioner and getting a doctor's order.  The same goes for having radiology or other lab work done.  A woman who finds a lump in her breasts can generally not go in for a mamogram or biopsy until an initial breast exam has been done by a general practitioner or ob/gyn.  After obtaining a doctor's order, getting in to have specialty work done usually takes a while.  My wife had her tonsils removed.  It took three weeks just to get her in to see the ear/nose/throat guy and then nearly three months before the surgery actually took place.

Our system is not without waiting periods, people.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #157 on: September 21, 2004, 03:39:50 pm »
I agree.  I had to wait a few times too.  But I had cancer and had to have surgery, I had a blown appendix.

My wife has a very devastating disease.  

The difference in Canada, and I guess it's the only one, is that you don't have any private doctors.  You have to go to the State.  So you don't have a choice other than to go there.

If you don't want to wait in the US, you find another doctor.  I did a couple of times.  I scheduled my surgery in a week.  I didn't wait for one doctor, I went to another one.  That's the difference.  Choice.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK you do have a choice and can go to private pay doctors.  Austrailia also, just not in Canada.

They do that to reduce costs and keep the system equal there.  It reduces competition also.  The trouble I heard about it was that there is a shortage of English speaking doctors since they are comming to the US to make some money.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #158 on: September 22, 2004, 01:46:58 am »
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in the UK you do have a choice and can go to private pay doctors.  Austrailia also, just not in Canada.

Uk only.  But they pay a very high premium to go to a private doctor.  Also, there is free basic dental care in the UK .... but very few use it.

They do that to reduce costs and keep the system equal there.  It reduces competition also.  The trouble I heard about it was that there is a shortage of English speaking doctors since they are comming to the US to make some money.

Hmm... a shortage of English speaking doctors in England??  Not sure about that...   Also, there is a large group of doctor's that DO NOT go to the States to work.  As Money isn't everything... Quality of Life, both personal & business means alot...

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #159 on: September 22, 2004, 02:14:04 am »
Also, there is free basic dental care in the UK .... but very few use it.
you didn't have to tell us that...we've all seen pictures of you guys  ;)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #160 on: September 22, 2004, 09:21:52 am »
Quote
Hmm... a shortage of English speaking doctors in England??  
 No, I was speaking of Canada. The complaints I heard were that the english speaking people were having trouble communicating with the French speaking doctors.  They didn't like that.

I don't understand the battle in Canada over the French/English thing myself.

Quote
...large group of doctor's that DO NOT go to the States to work.  As Money isn't everything... Quality of Life, both personal & business means alot...
 
Money isn't everything, I agree.

It's about 82
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2004, 10:19:43 am »
No, I was speaking of Canada. The complaints I heard were that the english speaking people were having trouble communicating with the French speaking doctors.  They didn't like that.

I don't understand the battle in Canada over the French/English thing myself.

If you live in a rural area of Quebec, then you'll have this problem.  As everywhere outside of Quebec, the 1st language is English.  I do not know of a 100% French speaking doctor.

French/English thing:   Inside of Quebec,  90% French Speaking, 30% French ONLY, they will not actknowledge you if you speak English to them.  And its @ 30% want to separate from Canada and become their own Nation.  Quebec recieve the largest amount of Federal aid then any other province.  So a lot of people in Western Canada don't think that fair and want equal payments for all provinces.  

The issue is sumed up like this... Federal Government gives Quebec alot of breaks.  Usually in order to stop the separation talk.  IE: Distinct Society clause... But they still are not happy and want more... and the other provinces say enough is enough...

Also there is the "French Language Police"  If I own a store, there signage outside my store has to be 90% French which the French writing has to be bigger then any English writing.  So in downtown Montreal, where the largest population of english speaking people in Quebec live (@30% are English only, and the rest are French first & English second speaking)  The store owners can only have French signage outside their store.  And if they put any English in the front of the store, they get a fine and have to change to french only.


Money isn't everything, I agree.

It's about 82

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2004, 10:36:42 am »
That's funny.  We have to use Spanish, but it's only to sell things.  If you don't use spanish, then you don't sell as much.  I get upset when I have to deal with spanish at an ATM or in instructions.

I've been to Detroit and didn't like the weather.  I can't believe that you don't get that much snow.  I lived in Indiana and couldn't stand the winter and had too much snow.  It was way too cold.

I like one season, the warm one.  I had a roommate who loved winter.  I could never understand that.  I live too far north now.  If it wasn't for Hurricanes and my industry, I'd move to FLA.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2004, 11:10:46 am »
I've been to Detroit and didn't like the weather.  I can't believe that you don't get that much snow.  I lived in Indiana and couldn't stand the winter and had too much snow.  It was way too cold.

Buffalo gets more snow then my area does.  

One thing for sure, when I was younger, we had lots of snow from December til March.  But now with global warning, I'm lucky to have a white Christmas... as we start getting good amounts of snow is January and Febuary and a freck snowstorm in March.  That's about it....
« Last Edit: September 22, 2004, 12:49:47 pm by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2004, 02:11:09 pm »
Can we let this thread fade away now.....  

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2004, 08:16:06 pm »
Can we let this thread fade away now.....  
No  ;D

Now that you're talking weather, both you goons must have missed the whole "by a big friggen body of water that helps with the whole snow" thingy.

I had beans for lunch, and bought a twelve pack of pencils for my son.  (go ahead, try to argue with THAT line!)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #166 on: September 22, 2004, 08:41:13 pm »
Now that you're talking weather, both you goons must have missed the whole "by a big friggen body of water that helps with the whole snow" thingy.

If the winter winds blow east to west across Lake Ontario, the area I live in gets lots of snow... if the wind blow west to east across Lake Erie, Buffalo gets lots of snow.  Usually the winter winds blow weat to east.

I had beans for lunch, and bought a twelve pack of pencils for my son.  (go ahead, try to argue with THAT line!)

I actually had Maple Syrup Baked Beans the other day... I love beans.. Bought my wife Sims2, and she's addicted to it, as soon as she comes home from work, she's on the computer playing Sims2.  Which forces me to eat Baked Beans out of a can for dinner...

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #167 on: September 24, 2004, 01:09:58 am »
If the winter winds blow east to west across Lake Ontario, the area I live in gets lots of snow... if the wind blow west to east across Lake Erie, Buffalo gets lots of snow.  Usually the winter winds blow weat to east.
so you agree with my flawless line of reasoning, eh?! ;)

I had beans for lunch, and bought a twelve pack of pencils for my son.  (go ahead, try to argue with THAT line!)

Quote
I actually had Maple Syrup Baked Beans the other day... I love beans.. Bought my wife Sims2, and she's addicted to it, as soon as she comes home from work, she's on the computer playing Sims2.  Which forces me to eat Baked Beans out of a can for dinner...
that's not even an argument....and I feel I can safely infer that you not only agree with my Beans position, but you want to promote it with me to the rest of the world

Beans in 2004 ;D
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #168 on: September 24, 2004, 06:50:08 am »
Well, would you look at what I found while stumbling around the internet this morning...

http://democrats4bush.com/

I also went to that site where people keep pulling all kinds of stats to defend their arguments, and I can't believe what I found.

Percentage of registered voters who actually vote:

3.  Australia, 94.9%  (Danny, I'm impressed!!!!)

The rest of us are lumped at the bottom:
101.  United States, 63.8%
109.  Canada, 61.2 %
115.  France, 60.3%
118.  United Kingdom, 59.4 %

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #169 on: September 24, 2004, 11:49:54 am »
Well, would you look at what I found while stumbling around the internet this morning...

http://democrats4bush.com/

I also went to that site where people keep pulling all kinds of stats to defend their arguments, and I can't believe what I found.

Percentage of registered voters who actually vote:

3.  Australia, 94.9%  (Danny, I'm impressed!!!!)

The rest of us are lumped at the bottom:
101.  United States, 63.8%
109.  Canada, 61.2 %
115.  France, 60.3%
118.  United Kingdom, 59.4 %

Doesn't Australia make everyone vote, whether they know who's running or not?  

"That man's name is easy to pronounce, so I'll vote for him."

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #170 on: September 24, 2004, 12:15:29 pm »
Doesn't Australia make everyone vote, whether they know who's running or not?  

"That man's name is easy to pronounce, so I'll vote for him."
Savuul is FAR from easy to pronounce.  That's a mischaracterization!

Oh, and I'll add - How can you not have 100% when everyone who can vote is required to do so, under penalty of *cough*somewhatstiff*cough* law?

Does that mean the criminals aren't voting?  How will they ever keep guns off the street and other such inane things?   ;D
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #171 on: September 25, 2004, 12:49:38 am »


Oh, and I'll add - How can you not have 100% when everyone who can vote is required to do so, under penalty of *cough*somewhatstiff*cough* law?

Does that mean the criminals aren't voting?  How will they ever keep guns off the street and other such inane things?   ;D

That's right, I forgot (quote from movie) "and as everyone knows, Australia is entirely peopled with criminals".

Edit: (fun natured jest)(sarcasm)(I will NOT give in to the smilies!!)

Latest Edit:  Aww, it turns out Drew isn't actually being a smartass...(I know, hard to believe)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dem_com_vot_enf

I didn't realize voting was compulsary in Austrailia.  What's that all about?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2004, 04:49:52 am by Mameotron »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #172 on: September 26, 2004, 03:52:20 pm »
I don't know how you would enforce it.

It would make the polls for the likely voters a little more correct.

Where is Danny_Galaga now that we need real info?

Dan, how do you vote?  How long do you have to vote?  1 day or a week or what?

What happens if you don't vote?  Who doesn't get to vote?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #173 on: September 27, 2004, 09:58:17 am »
Danny the questions are:
Dan, how do you vote?  How long do you have to vote?  1 day or a week or what?
What happens if you don't vote?  Who doesn't get to vote?

Here's a take on why we shouldn't have compulsory voting :
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/23/60minutes/rooney/main645197.shtml
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #174 on: September 27, 2004, 10:06:51 am »
Just to pop into the end of a long thread.

About healthcare... I like Nadders statements.

About Full Healthcare - "When people say we can't afford it, I have to say that we already do."

We already pay for healthcare (at least the majority of the country who can afford it).

The question is if the government could do a better job of administering.

I believe they could.  If only to force pricing and buying meds in mass.  And if private companies wont produce medicans for the government... then the government can make them (they really can).  I'm not talking about making them sell products for nothing..  But make sure that they do two things.

1) Sell medicans to US citizens for the same as the sell abroad.   If we need to help countries out who can afford items (like aids medicans) it shouldn't be the drug companies but the government doing it.  

2) Sell ALL medicans which where the developement was funded by the US tax payers.. That the drugs will be sold for cost + a small percentage.  Its AMAZING the amount of government funded development items that companies buy the 100% production rights... and are making billions with NO risk at all!


Also, with part of this should come medical insurance reform.  

I believe that we should try to get more doctors.  And give them more time with each patient.   Remove the malpractice insurance costs 100% from the doctors.  Then if a doctor is a problem, we remove them from practice, or send them to jail.  

One of the problems with malpractice insurance is its getting SO expensive that doctors can't spend the time on each patient that they should because of the cost of doing business and the number of people who they need to see.

But part of this, they should have some limits on what they are legally allowed to do.  They SHOULD make enought money that people want to be doctors.  And they SHOULD be able to make that money looking at few enought patients that is safe (for their patients, and for their own sanity).

We have more lawyers in the US right now then doctors and this sucks.

Now... what do we do with all these new lawyers?  I have no idea.  But not this topic.  But if any major reform happens.   We can't just expect put millions of lawysers out of business just because we change how things work.  They spent thousands on school to have a job.  

The real trouble with government controlled hosiptols is the very very expensive procedures which aren't that reliable.... or saving people who are in their 90s who might really die a year later.

that and who pays for Breast enlargements and Viagra??




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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #175 on: September 27, 2004, 10:10:59 am »
official campaigning goes for a number of weeks (can't quite think if it's 3 or 6 weeks). elections are held on a saturday. normally takes about half an hour out of my life once every three years. i think thats pretty good value to have a government that is accountable to ALL types of people...
That's nice, you don't spend any time figuring out whos the best man/woman for the job, just the half hour needed to push buttons and pull levers in a booth.  At least the odds are you'll elect the right person once every 6 years.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #176 on: September 27, 2004, 12:01:38 pm »
That's nice Dan.

Here in TN we can start voting 2 weeks before an election with early voting.  I usually beat the rush and vote at lunch time the week before.  It makes it very convienent.

Do you really think that China is releasing all the info you should know?  Besides, if you break a law there, you don't get out.  So IF the stats are even close to being true, the repeat offenders is very very low.

Comparing Communist countries to free democracies is comparing oranges to chalk. The only simularities in the governments is that they have boundries and there are people there.  Otherwise, it's lacking.  

You failed to note that Austrailia leads the list of most crime victims.  Maybe you should re-think the prison thing.

You didn't finish.  What happens if you don't vote?  Do you get to go to prison so you don't have to vote for 5 years?

Most states allow prisoners to vote after doing their time.  Some can vote in Prison.

The article from Andy Rooney (which you didn't read) says that if you aren't smart enough to deal with the issues, then don't vote.  If you don't understand politics, then please, don't vote, it screws it up for the rest of us.






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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #177 on: September 27, 2004, 01:55:04 pm »
Why Bush Will Lose In November.

1) In 2000, he lost the popular vote. Republicans traditionally vote every election in greater numbers than Democrats (33% or higher) and Bush still couldn't pull it off. With record numbers of newly registered voters throughout the U.S., I think it's safe to say the vast majority of them or going to vote democrat. Apathy will not be a factor this election. Why do you think Republicans have traditionally never cared for 'voter registration' drives....they only help the Democrats.
2) Anybody But Bush. How bad does a president have to be in order to fully motivate an entire contingent of people who would rather vote for a stone than vote for the incumbent president? I think this speaks to Bush's failures and not to Kerry's shortcomings, thus people that wouldn't have normally voted will be voting this year, against Bush.
3) Howard Stern. 8+ million listeners w/ family & friends, 'nuff said.
4) Nader Factor Nil. Nader will not be a factor this election, at all. People voting for him wouldn't vote for any establishment candidate anyhow. He's no longer a "protest vote" as most Americans realize the stakes are high (ie: minimal undecideds)
5) No incumbent polling at or near 50% has ever won re-election.
6) Minorities unite to create majority. Gays, Blacks, Latino, Arab Americans...all leaning heavily towards Kerry.
7) Iraq in chaos, Colonel calls "unmitgated disaster". Will only get worse before election.
Quote
"From a purely military standpoint, the war in Iraq is an unmitigated disaster. This administration failed to make even a cursory effort at adequately defining the political end state they sought to achieve by removing Saddam Hussein, making it impossible to precisely define long-term military success. That, in turn, makes it impossible to lay out a rational exit strategy for U.S. troops. Like Vietnam, the military is again being asked to clean up the detritus of a failed foreign policy. We are nose-deep in a protracted insurgency, an occupying Christian power in an oil-rich, Arab country. That country is not now and has never been a single nation. A single, unified, democratic Iraq comprised of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis is a willfully ignorant illusion at best." --- Retired Air Force Col. Mike Turner is a former military planner who served on the U.S. Central Command planning staff for operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Sept, 24th 2004.

There are a ton of other little factors that when added together point to a tremendous groundswell of voter turnout against Bush. I'm predicting, right here, that unless we see monumental voting fraud, we're looking at a landslide victory for Kerry. Nothing I have seen leads me to worry about Bush's chances in this election (other than Diebold voting fraud). I'm not even convinced that a Bin Laden "October Suprise" capture would do much for Bush, as even the administration seems to be making Zarqawi the new hotness...

If you are a Bush supporter, it all boils down to one simple question...Do you think Bush has pleased more people than he has utterly pissed off?

Enjoy!
mrC

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #178 on: September 27, 2004, 02:11:24 pm »
Why Bush Will Lose In November.
3) Howard Stern. 8+ million listeners w/ family & friends, 'nuff said.


I hope the all of his listeners go out and vote.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #179 on: September 27, 2004, 02:20:50 pm »
Ok.  Landslide is 60%.

50% say he is gooding a good job. 45% say he isn't.  5% want pie.
(it vacilates between 47-52% week to week)

Clinton won on 50% in '96.  

I can't wait for the debates.  It's Bush's campaign to loose in this case.  



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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #180 on: September 27, 2004, 03:29:18 pm »
Why Bush Will Lose In November.
3) Howard Stern. 8+ million listeners w/ family & friends, 'nuff said.


I hope the all of his listeners go out and vote.

I hope that all of his listeners get their GED and go out and find a job.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #181 on: September 27, 2004, 04:03:57 pm »
Regardless.. Howard Stern is No#1 in a bunch of major cities and he's getting people who have never voted... to vote... Plus the majority of the people he's getting to vote are going to vote for Kerry.




 

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #182 on: September 27, 2004, 06:44:57 pm »
I hope that all of his listeners get their GED and go out and find a job.


...and you people on the right accuse us lefties of being elitist. Jesus. How's that latte taste DD?

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #183 on: September 27, 2004, 07:07:13 pm »
GGKoul, I think you'd better start preparing yourself emotionally.  It's a lost cause.  I don't care how many people Howard Stern gets to vote.  Bush is obviously going to win.  Right now the most you can hope for is for Sandra Day O'Conner to stick around for another four years.

And I suppose the Dems could take control of the senate.  That would cusion the blow of O'Conner retiring a little bit, I guess.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #184 on: September 27, 2004, 07:07:48 pm »
any of you guys typing from prison?  ;)
*sheepishly raises his hand

I'm predicting, right here, that unless we see monumental voting fraud, we're looking at a landslide victory for Kerry.

If you are a Bush supporter, it all boils down to one simple question...Do you think Bush has pleased more people than he has utterly pissed off?
mrC
I'm predicting, right here, that unless we DON'T see monumental voting fraud, Kerry will lose.  I don't care if it's by a landslide or by 1 vote (actually, if it were by 1 vote, that'd be SO sweet to see his supporters stew and whine about cheating for another 4 years)

As for boiling it down for all us Bush supporters, I think we can all see how your logic is so great as to be unchallengeable  ::) and we shouldn't even bother to turn out to vote.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #185 on: September 27, 2004, 08:12:07 pm »
Quote
I'm predicting, right here, that unless we DON'T see monumental voting fraud, Kerry will lose.

You know what, you righty-tighties need to get your own arguments. Stealing elections, stealing stock holders money, workers pensions....now arguments. Have you no shame? Forget it...I know the answer to that.
 
Please point me to one single instance where attempted voting fraud by democrats can be shown in the run-up to the 2004 elections.

Here's a recent attempt by a Republican, more to surely follow. You support these vile undemocratic, haters of America. Not me.

Republican Sec. of State in Ohio attempts to throw out new voter registrations from democratic areas.
"In the final days before the registration deadline Ken Blackwell, Ohio Secretary of State, has ordered the local election boards to send out new applications to applicants who have submitted registrations on the wrong paper. The ostensible reason for this order is to insure that the applications can make it through the postal system without being damaged. The Secretary didn't point to any examples of voters who were stupid enough to mail regular weight paper as a postcard, nor did he cite examples of complaints from the Postal Service that this has been a problem. Never mind also that the applications he wants thrown out have already been delivered to the election boards safely."


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #186 on: September 27, 2004, 08:19:37 pm »
Kerry is so going to lose.  I wish it were about voting fraud, but mainly it's because he's a poor candidate.  Look at the numbers Curmudgeon.   Don't look to the debates to swing things our way.   It takes more than intelligence and speaking skills to win a debate.  Look how Al Gore (certainly Kerry's intellectual superior) fared against Bush.

We're going to lose.  It'll be close in the popular vote, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's an electoral-vote landslide.  I give Bush at least 100 electoral votes on Kerry.  It's discusting.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #187 on: September 27, 2004, 09:18:23 pm »
Please point me to one single instance where attempted voting fraud by democrats can be shown in the run-up to the 2004 elections.

Now, you don't know the election laws in Wisconsin, but if you're concerned with actually finding out how these two stories relate, I'm sure you'll look it up.

LINK Here's one, for starters...yeah, they didn't delve into the party affiliations of these students...but the next link is by the guy who DID do investigation into it LINK

LINK since he's the only one reporting on this in WI, he gets TWO links...it won't matter to the left anyway LINK

LINK here you go.  Go ahead protest away. LINK

Oh, and for good measure

LINK a snippet re: the 2000 election fraud LINK

LINK and more instances of stuff gone wrong LINK

LINK This one's for right wingers only...lefty heads may explode upon reading LINK

LINK A little something that acknowledges the funding that hasn't happened...I'm sure you'll focus on this instead of the rest of what ZOGBY has to say...you know, the poll guy BOTH parties point to? LINK

And lastly LINK and this one posts BOTH sides and the charges of vote fraud.  THIS is probably the one you'll want to look at MrC...then you won't have to answer the charges brought up by the other links I bring up LINK

In my state specifically, a democratic voter registration drive turned in several thousand registrations without proper identification.  Lest you think you can blow this off, the "proper identification" is referring to "ANY IDENTIFICATION.  After the regs have been turned in, BY LAW they have to be accepted, and BY LAW those with MISSING ID can now obtain absentee ballots, even though their registrations are NOT VALID.  

To top it all off, the program has been run by a person who attempted to defraud the state of WI by running in an election where she was ineligible.  The democratic D.A. offered her the option of resigning her position (in which the OTHER democrat got the position) or go to jail.

You can try to slice it any way you want, but the fact is a person who would be in jail if they were prosecuted for the crime of attempting election fraud is now running voter registration programs and submitting registrations in clear violation of the ONLY REQUIREMENT of my state.  

I don't expect you, MrC, to care, since you feel it's in the best interests of the country, no matter the means, but for those who care, and to whom 1+1=2, it's as simple as connecting the dots.  In Wisconsin, a swing state, Democrats are leading the charge in attempting to submit fraudulent votes, and did so in the last election.  The non-prosecution by the Liberal D.A. has shown them that they can do whatever they wish, as the 2000 voter fraud that happened across the street from the local news station didn't get any play until Joe Camcorder walked into their station and PLAYED THE FRIGGEN TAPE FOR THEM...mysteriously, the story wasn't commented on by the other two stations in town.

As I stated before, UNLESS liberals commit vote fraud, Kerry will lose.  
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 09:25:10 pm by DrewKaree »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #188 on: September 28, 2004, 12:03:28 am »
Shmokes,

Whoa dude. Have you given up the sword when the going is tough?  Do you believe you are right?  Then fight man, fight!
The country is polarized.  It could go either way man.  Don't let a daily poll stop you from your beliefs.  It goes beyond polls man.  Come on dude.  

I'm from TN Shmokes.  Al Gore was our senator. He ran for office here. I have to say that if you really have seen gore in action, well, he was underwhelming.  Kerry comes off a lot better than gore.  I wouldn't say that Kerry is intellectually inferior to gore at all.

Bush cannot be underestimated.  He is a very educated man. He may not be as articulate in every setting as people would like, but he is not as inept as the left would like to believe.  Historically, the left likes to make fun of Republican Presidents.  Think back of the left's portrail of Republican Presidents.  Bush 1 was a "wimp", Regan was a "bad actor / idiot", Ford was "clumsy", and of course, Nixon was a "crook".  (you lefties can believe what you want about any of them, but it doesn't matter this year).

Nobody has said a Republican was smart since Lincoln. Well, maybe Esienhower, maybe.  It's the Left's way of feeling better about themselves and their loss.  They like to think losing was a lucky shot or something.

MrC - how about JFK and voter fraud - http://www.adversity.net/florida/Frame_Fla_Stories/Kennedy_Daley_1960.htm

Shmokes, let me help you get fired back up man.  You are kinda down.  

Bush will go down as the most courageous president in modern history.  While Clinton tried to negotiate a peace talk and work through the UN, Bush took the bull by the horns and solved the problem.

Do you agree that he's the best man for our new century Shmokes??






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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #189 on: September 28, 2004, 12:09:23 am »
...and of course, Nixon was a "crook".

hehe...quotes! It really takes a lot for you guys on the right to hold one of your own accountable. Thank god Nixon didn't get a blowjob.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #190 on: September 28, 2004, 12:56:07 am »
GGKoul, I think you'd better start preparing yourself emotionally.  It's a lost cause.  I don't care how many people Howard Stern gets to vote.  Bush is obviously going to win.  Right now the most you can hope for is for Sandra Day O'Conner to stick around for another four years.


I sadly believe this is true too...   And the US and the World will be in a much different place 4 years from now.
 

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #191 on: September 28, 2004, 04:26:55 am »
GGKoul, I think you'd better start preparing yourself emotionally.  It's a lost cause.  I don't care how many people Howard Stern gets to vote.  Bush is obviously going to win.  Right now the most you can hope for is for Sandra Day O'Conner to stick around for another four years.


I sadly believe this is true too...   And the US and the World will be in a much different place 4 years from now.
 

According to the latest polls, Kerry is losing.  Every single poll but one, where he is tied.
http://www.pollingreport.com/

Don't forget about the moral majority.  The catholic church in my area has been putting up billboards telling people NOT to vote for Kerry.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #192 on: September 28, 2004, 09:51:56 am »
Oh well.. just watch Bush's numbers jump when then catch Bin Laden in mid October.  Just in time to crush Kerry's momentum.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #193 on: September 28, 2004, 11:27:12 am »
Oh well.. just watch Bush's numbers jump when then catch Bin Laden in mid October.  Just in time to crush Kerry's momentum.

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #194 on: September 28, 2004, 11:47:20 am »
Oh well.. just watch Bush's numbers jump when then catch Bin Laden in mid October.  Just in time to crush Kerry's momentum.

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

Kerry has no momentum, Bin Laden is dead, and Bush will win.

Deal with it.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #195 on: September 28, 2004, 11:50:09 am »
Oh well.. just watch Bush's numbers jump when then catch Bin Laden in mid October.  Just in time to crush Kerry's momentum.

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

I thought that's why Bush went to war?  Oh sorry, it was to finish the job his father started in Iraq by capturing Saddam.  I thought Bin Laden's people flew planes into the world trade towers on 9/11.  Not Saddam's...


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #196 on: September 28, 2004, 11:51:29 am »
Kerry has no momentum, Bin Laden is dead, and Bush will win.

Deal with it.

I couldn't care less.. I'm Canadian, and Bush's policies is going to put the US 100 years behind the rest of the World.  You should deal with it.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #197 on: September 28, 2004, 01:04:53 pm »
Thank god Nixon didn't get a blowjob.
Actually, it would have mattered more in those times, since the declining slide in morals and values have since shown our country to care not a whit about marital infidelity.  But dem's not politiks, dat's fer anudder tred.

i did read it. i don't agree with the arrogant view that only certain people have an interest or understanding of politics. doesn't matter if you're a garbage collector or a doctor, most people have some view on politics and have a right to vote.....there's this thing called a 'donkey' vote. you guys got it confused and thought it meant voting for Bush  ;)
danny, both sides here (on this board, and in the U.S.) would LOVE to have everyone on their side out voting.  That being said, it is untrue (and sadly so) that there REALLY ARE people out there who DON'T have any views on politics....they really COULDN'T care less.....and while they DO have a right to vote, they care so little, they won't even exercise the right to make a difference.    As for the donkey vote, you REALLY REALLY have to look at the two mascots for each party.  While I think Bush is a democrat on some of his positions, I've never confused him with a DONKEY!  (go ahead danny, ask me...I'll send you a .gif of the Democrat mascot  ;D)

its certainly true that we outstrip you in things like burglaries and car theft. thats an eye opener for sure. i blame it on our convict heritage  ;) but why do you guys have so many people in prison? it seems very authoritarian to me- big brother protecting yourselves from, well yourselves!!
might could be cuz we lock 'em up and keep 'em for longer than youse guys over dere....'sted a lettiin' em out ta re-steal cars and whutnot.  ;D


i think we are a little less anal about things. for instance, you guys are number 4 on the nationmaster list of drugs offenses (560 per 100000) while at this time i couldnt see the top 100 of this list but indonesia was number 34 (3.4 per 100000) so presumably australia is lower than that? after all, didn't you guys try to ban drinking at one stage?
you say anal, we say breaking the law.  Kinda hard to make it to the top of the drug offense list if you live in an "anything goes cuz we're a little less anal" society....wait.....the sheep.....and.....I'm getting the threads we talk in confused.  Which one's a little less...nevermind

Oh well.. just watch Bush's numbers jump when then catch Bin Laden in mid October.  Just in time to crush Kerry's momentum.

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
So GG is willing to believe the whole U.S. (the CANADIAN, really?  GG, talk to MrC, see if you can't get him to sop up your "conspiracy theory" tripe) Government is waiting to trot OBL out for the elections, and MrC, of all people  :o, is willing to post that GWB doesn't know where he is?!?!

MrC, does this mean that if they DO find him in the next few months, we won't hear your endless prattling about how "it's a fix, he rigged it, it's a con job, he preyed on the country's emotions, blah etc blah"?

Somehow I doubt that with every fiber of my being....and my ethereal host's being too.  Now which direction is Area51?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #198 on: September 28, 2004, 01:06:06 pm »
I couldn't care less.. I'm Canadian, and Bush's policies is going to put the US 100 years behind the rest of the World.  You should deal with it.
So then we'll be like....Canada  :o  SAY IT AIN'T SO, GG, SAY IT AIN'T SO !   ;)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #199 on: September 28, 2004, 01:21:14 pm »
I couldn't care less.. I'm Canadian, and Bush's policies is going to put the US 100 years behind the rest of the World.  You should deal with it.
So then we'll be like....Canada  :o  SAY IT AIN'T SO, GG, SAY IT AIN'T SO !   ;)

Yep, Canada, American's friendly neighbour to the South of the US.  :D   ....As many American's don't even know where Canada is.

Just think, in 4 years, In the US there will be no Gay Marriages allowed, no Stem Cell Research allowed, No abortions allowed, more limitations on Free Speech, higher tax rates for the middile class, no public health care, prescriptions bought from outside the US, more assualt rifles around, higher CO2 pollution levels, higher deficts levels on the backs of your childrens childern and more religon in government.  

This doesn't sound like Canada at all... it sounds more like Utah.

Hope you have fun for the next 4 years!

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #200 on: September 28, 2004, 02:16:58 pm »
Yep, Canada, American's friendly neighbour to the South of the US.  :D   ....As many American's don't even know where Canada is.
Sure I do....it's just south of Mexico, between them and the South Pole ;D

Quote
no Stem Cell Research allowed, No abortions allowed, more limitations on Free Speech, higher tax rates for the middile class, no public health care, prescriptions bought from outside the US, more assualt rifles around, higher CO2 pollution levels, higher deficts levels on the backs of your childrens childern and more religon in government.
Your reasons read like a "Why should we ignore non-'mercans when they comment on the U.S. and don't know what they're talking about".

Stem Cell Research already happens.  The argument is about the new ways folks want to get them.  Abortion is law, it won't be struck down in 4 years, only the uninformed would believe that.  No Free speech?  You've GOT to be kidding.  That alone should disqualify you from the conversation......IF there were no free speech.  Higher tax rates on the middle class?  I got my tax cut, and am decidedly lower-middle class.  When you start paying taxes in the U.S., you too will be qualified to comment!  No public health care?  You've obviously never been to our hospitals sitting amongst 20 kids with the sniffles.  Prescriptions from outside the US?  Aren't you Canadian?  SHouldn't you be thanking God we buy stuff from you, thereby increasing your economy?  Backwards reasoning, my friend.  More assault weapons?  At last, something to say "YEEHAW" about! Higher CO2?  Again, my solution...us 'Mercans will just stop breathing to satisfy the world.  Problem solved!  Higher deficits/childrens childrens...again, since you don't PAY our taxes, you couldn't possibly understand our economic system, and lastly

RELIGION IN GOVERNMENT?  Have you been sneaking mom & dad's "funny juice" again?  They are systemically booting out all traces of it, and you only need to do a quick google search for EVIDENCE of that.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #201 on: September 28, 2004, 02:49:46 pm »
How about those expos?

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #202 on: September 28, 2004, 03:13:41 pm »

This doesn't sound like Canada at all... it sounds more like Utah.

Hey!!!  I resent that... :P
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #203 on: September 28, 2004, 03:43:21 pm »
I got my tax cut, and am decidedly lower-middle class.

Did you use it to stimulate the economy? 'Cuz I don't see no difference!

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #204 on: September 28, 2004, 05:10:37 pm »
Did you use it to stimulate the economy? 'Cuz I don't see no difference!
not in MA...I figured you had a job, and I'd put my money into Evil Conservative Industries.  Clearly MA won't let them build in your area  ::)

Yeah, my $1200 bucks was well spent....and the extra money I get in my check...well spent again.  You wanna know the best part about it all?  

The Republicans want ME to choose how my money is spent, not some politician who thinks they know how to spread it around better than I.  

A little to those "faith-based organizations" that disgust you, a little to those "little people" (that's my wife and kids) you look down your nose at, and a little to those "Rich businesses" you say are robbing money from the "less fortunate".....heaven forbid they keep their doors open and employ people.  Or are you now FOR sending jobs overseas?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #205 on: September 28, 2004, 05:14:22 pm »
How about those expos?
mebbe if they weren't from Canada, they'd be good.  

"How about the North Dominican Republic" would have been more accurate.












Only you Bengals fans'll get dis one (unless you're just a plain football nut.


WHODEY?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #206 on: September 28, 2004, 05:53:14 pm »
Or are you now FOR sending jobs overseas?

No. Not like your president* and his party. Example: It has just recently been discovered that the Republican Voter Vault was put together in India, while the Democrats did their work on Demzilla (their database) in the good ol' U S of A.

*Funny that you have such a problem with offshoring, yet you support one of the most egregious abusers of job exports [Bush]. A vote to help Bush keep his job, is a vote to send yours overseas. Kerry has promised to close loopholes that benefit companies that take jobs away from American families.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #207 on: September 28, 2004, 11:54:08 pm »
*Funny that you have such a problem with offshoring, yet you support one of the most egregious abusers of job exports [Bush]. A vote to help Bush keep his job, is a vote to send yours overseas. Kerry has promised to close loopholes that benefit companies that take jobs away from American families.
what's not funny is your continued refusal to look at facts....you know, those pesky things needed to give your accusations substance, rather than just some bitter judgements fueled by hatred.

It's simple.

click here for the facts regarding MrC's blatant lies

This link is for another ignorant "fact" regarding the terrible economy and how it's affecting our jobs

Yet more information on our "terrible economy" ::)

Some about Kerry's spurious job creation and how he's responsible for 'em


Funny how a web site that specifically looks to point out errors (screw it, it's a lie, not an error) can make such mincemeat of your lies about Bush being "the most egregious abuser of job exports".  

I'd ask you to back up your claims with a bit more than an article from PC World, but I won't ever hold my breath.  I'd ask you to hold yours, but you seem to be getting redder in the face by the day.  

Any chance you might stop spewing outright lies, or are you becoming that which you decried not too long ago?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #208 on: September 29, 2004, 12:09:28 am »
edit: damn you drew, and your multiple quotes!! i just can't get this one lookin right...
it ain't eezy bein' cheezy  ;D
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #209 on: September 29, 2004, 12:38:33 am »
what's not funny is your continued refusal to look at facts....

Your Linkfest[size=-2](tm)[/size], once again, neither proves nor disproves anything. BTW, don't let the name "FactCheck.org" fool you. It's a crappy website that is just as prone to bias as any other and it doesn't help your cause. However, interesting that you should mention facts...

FACT:  The economy has lost 3.1 million private sector jobs since President Bush took office, a job loss rate of 108,000 per month. Worst since Herbert Hoover. But don't worry...I know it's all Clinton's fault.

Wake me when Bush gets those job numbers back to where they were before his dumb ass took office. That's improvement. You guys pat yourselves on the back the moment you see Bush walk and chew gum at the same time and you act like he's walking on water while doing it.

Here's another fact for you:
The Lone Star Iconoclast, local newspaper of Crawford, Texas, switches sides and endorses Kerry for president. This guy can't even win over the dinky little town he's so proud of...maybe they see him for the blue blood he truly is. Him and his fake hillbilly accent, all hat, no cattle.

My favorite part:"We should expect that a sitting President would vacation less, if at all, and instead tend to the business of running the country, especially if he is, as he likes to boast, a

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2004, 12:42:58 am »
Fredster,

I don't just think Kerry's going to lose because things aren't going our way.   I think that Kerry and the democrats deserve to lose.  They've sucked at framing issues.  George Bush has been able to trick the general public into believing that there is a link between Iraq and Al Queida.  And that's just one issue.  When we see him on his off time he's in a plaid shirt with his dog, out on the ranch, working.  We know it's for show.  He has hired help that does all the work on the ranch, of course.  But when Kerry takes a break, and he knows that media will be everywhere, he goes wind surfing or to an exclusive private ski resort in Idaho.  

Bush will win because he knows (or at least Karl Rove knows, but I give Bush credit too) how to run a campaign.  It's not just polls that make me think Kerry will lose; it's the fact that Kerry doesn't know what he's doing and Bush does.  

Sad.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #211 on: September 29, 2004, 01:04:23 am »
From my first link

Quote
Summary

A Kerry ad released July 20 returns to a theme he and his Democratic allies have been pushing for months: a claim that tax incentives to locate jobs overseas is a big problem that is Bush's fault and that Kerry promises to fix.

Kerry's latest ad -- all positive -- paints his tax fix as the centerpiece of a plan to create jobs -- the "lifeline for America's families." The negative side, blaming Bush, has been seen earlier in ads such as a Media Fund spot first aired last March saying "Bush's policies have encouraged the loss of nearly 3 million jobs" and "he supported tax breaks for corporations that ship jobs overseas."

But recent Labor Department data underscore what even Democratic economists have said for some time -- outsourcing jobs overseas, or "offshoring," accounts for just a small fraction of the many millions of jobs that are lost each year even in a good economy.

There is indeed a tax break for US-based multinational corporations to locate operations overseas. Bush isn't to blame for it -- it's been there for decades. It's also true that Bush doesn't support Kerry's proposed remedy, which is controversial.

But even backers of the Kerry plan concede that eliminating the tax break won't end the offshoring of some US jobs. Multinational businesses build plants in other countries to take advantage of lower wages and to be near their global customers, too, not just for tax reasons.
Analysis

Economic analysts say offshoring is a fairly small problem, and Kerry's tax proposal won't do much to solve it.

So make of that what you will, but when you paint Bush as the "most egregious abuser", you're wrong, and the story goes on to point out that even Democrats don't agree that Kerry's plan is the solution.  

Would you like several stories of Democrats who have switched their allegiance to Kerry, or several news stories who believe Kerry won't win?  It's all the same to you...."lies" that don't prove one way or the other that blind allegiance to the man whose chief plan is "to do it better than the current administration" ISN'T the way to go.

As for "my crappy website", it's the only one anyone's posted in any thread that has continued to poke holes in both sides - the ads they run, the claims they make....you'd like everyone to believe they should be flippantly dismissed, but even a casual observation of their site shows my statement to be true.  Your main problem is that you don't like ANY website that might shed light on your lies.

And you prattle on about goosestepping ::)

Blind hatred must be a bear to get over.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #212 on: September 29, 2004, 01:56:29 am »
Drew,

I read that article and it just doesn't offer much. Kerry plan is a step in the right direction, and your article would even seem to support that (ie: "wouldn't do *much*"...but it would do something, right? Bush has done nothing!). Offshoring accounts for a small portion of jobs lost...so what...should be just keep sending jobs overseas then, let's make it really count!! These numbers have continued to grow under Bush and I bet that once Kerry is in office, we'll get the real numbers on the economy under Bush, and it won't be pretty. Everything we get from this White House is tainted, extrapolated and exaggerated. Fuzzy Math 101 is a Republican prerequisite.

Sure there's political spin involved in what Kerry says, but don't act like Bush is honest abe either. Bush lost 3.1 million jobs...if they didn't go overshore (which I don't believe they all did), where did they go? I certainly don't expect you to hold him accountable, I mean, Clinton did get a blowjob after all, but is it so hard for you to understand how those of us who do think he's responsible balk at the idea of clapping for a measley 130,000 jobs here, 112,000 jobs there?

Bottom line, I may be blinded by hate when it comes to Bush...but you seem to be blinded by sympathy for that sorry excuse for a president. Don't be an apologist, I know you can do better than that.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #213 on: September 29, 2004, 02:01:21 am »
One more thing...I may just disappear from these political threads again, for a while. It's not that I don't like them  ::) , it's just that I'd rather be out there helping the Kerry campaign in ways that really matter. Nobody here is going to change, but I've been working to make a difference in New Hampsire, Ohio and Michigan (my home state).

So far, much more rewarding than posting links and making fun of Bush. (Although that is fun!)

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #214 on: September 29, 2004, 02:07:01 am »
How about those expos?

You mean the Washington, D.C. Expos?  I think they will suck.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #215 on: September 29, 2004, 02:14:27 am »
I've been working to make a difference in New Hampsire, Ohio and Michigan (my home state).
So we should look for stories of voter fraud in those three states?  Your work IS showing up in Ohio, I've seen.

Nothing in MA, hey?  They've already got the votes locked up or are there enough absentee ballots coming to negate any conservative votes?

I hope they school you in the legalities of voter registration, but somehow, I doubt that's low on the list in those states, at least within the circles you assist.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #216 on: September 29, 2004, 04:13:50 pm »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #217 on: September 30, 2004, 12:32:26 pm »
"Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever HE shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, WHENEVER HE MAY CHOOSE TO SAY he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix ANY LIMIT to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much as you propose. If, today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, "I see no probability of the British invading us" but he will say to you "be silent; I see it, if you don't."  

"The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that NO ONE MAN should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood."

the world needs you, honest Abe.
danny, I think we all see where you're angling with this post.  The problem is, Ol' Abe's process is the way we went about it.  So if you feel the world needs him back, then you are saying you agree with the process and where it's led us to currently, right?
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #218 on: September 30, 2004, 02:01:03 pm »
MrC -
Quote
One more thing...I may just disappear from these political threads again, for a while...I'd rather be out there helping the Kerry campaign in ways that really matte

Ahhh. Well, I guess somebody has to rub the tanning oil on The Senator.

Danny-
Quote
The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated

That's how we did it.  Nice take on our system. It was no ONE man.  See, there are 435 members in one house and 100 in the other that voted for a war in Iraq.  Including Kerry.

Honest Abe was a Republican.

Shmokes has it right about the desolution of the Union.  I suppose it could be done if Everybody agreed.  At this point in time we would only allow California to leave.

And also Shmokes and I agree on this -
Quote
it's the fact that Kerry doesn't know what he's doing and Bush does.  
 Well said, well said  :-X

(That last quote was taken horribly out of Context because I know Shmokes has a wonderful sense of Humor)


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #219 on: September 30, 2004, 02:36:36 pm »
If, today, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, "I see no probability of the British invading us" but he will say to you "be silent; I see it, if you don't."  

Or the president can say the "Canada has WMD" and use that as his excuse to attack Canada, even though UN inspector's said there was no WMD.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #220 on: September 30, 2004, 03:35:12 pm »
At this point in time we would only allow California to leave.
I'd let MA leave too, but only if they take MrK(or C...they're interchangeable)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #221 on: September 30, 2004, 03:40:06 pm »
Or the president can say the "Canada has WMD" and use that as his excuse to attack Canada, even though UN inspector's said there was no WMD.
Women Masquerading as Dirigiibles?

True enough, I WOULD support attacking them...HoHo's and DingDongs until they explode!

Forget about all that pesky "every country with an intelligence agency (including France) convinced they had them".  The inspectors that Sadaam showed what and when he wanted them to see....they were the ones  who "knew" best.  ::)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #222 on: September 30, 2004, 05:01:39 pm »
GGKoul,
Quote
Or the president can say the "Canada has WMD" and use that as his excuse to attack Canada, even though UN inspector's said there was no WMD.

No, that's wrong and you know it's wrong.  There was a proceedure that took over a year to complete in order to direct the war machine on Iraq. It wasn't as if Bush said "jump" and everybody said "how high".

The president on his own cannot attack anybody.  Only the congress can declare war.  

People seem to confuse facts with opinions and outright fallacies in election seasons.

To say that the Congress just rubber stamps whatever the President says is absolutely wrong.  There were stump speaches by over 550 statesmen about this issue for several months in the US.  Similar debate took place in the UK and all over the world.  

Does the UK rubber stamp what Bush said too?  Is Bush now the leader of more than the US?

Tony Blair also said the same thing.  Austrailia was with us, so were about 37 other countries.  To say it was unilateral action kinda ignores the rest of the coalition.  Just because Canada, France, and Germany didn't join doesn't mean the US went at this alone.

And just because Canada, France and Germany didn't participate in no means makes our actions wrong.  

BTW, does Canada have a large stash of WMD?  Have you shown them to the UN?  Do you plan on taking on any of your bordering countries?  Are you harboring terrorists or setting up training camps?  Do you have mass graves of people that have been killed by your government?







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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #223 on: September 30, 2004, 07:31:08 pm »
GGKoul,
Quote

Fredster, he can't understand, he's Canadian.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #224 on: October 12, 2004, 11:14:03 am »
Reason no 1000: If you really hate America and you want the Islamic Fundamentalists to take over, don't vote for GWB.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #225 on: October 12, 2004, 11:38:04 am »
Does the UK rubber stamp what Bush said too?  Is Bush now the leader of more than the US?

Tony Blair also said the same thing.  Austrailia was with us, so were about 37 other countries.  To say it was unilateral action kinda ignores the rest of the coalition.  Just because Canada, France, and Germany didn't join doesn't mean the US went at this alone.

I have a feeling if UK & Australia knew what they know today, they wouldn't have joined the US in invading Iraq.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #226 on: October 12, 2004, 12:15:44 pm »

I have a feeling if UK & Australia knew what they know today, they wouldn't have joined the US in invading Iraq.

Godd thing they didn't, now they're on the winning team.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #227 on: October 12, 2004, 01:17:10 pm »

I have a feeling if UK & Australia knew what they know today, they wouldn't have joined the US in invading Iraq.

Godd thing they didn't, now they're on the winning team.
The UN is a joke, put a fork in it, it's done.


It's easy to win when you attack one of the poorest countries in the world.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #228 on: October 12, 2004, 01:46:57 pm »

I have a feeling if UK & Australia knew what they know today, they wouldn't have joined the US in invading Iraq.

Godd thing they didn't, now they're on the winning team.
The UN is a joke, put a fork in it, it's done.


It's easy to win when you attack one of the poorest countries in the world.

I'm talking about the UN and being part of a united front that actually works.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #229 on: October 13, 2004, 01:35:33 am »
http://www.pollingreport.com/

It's getting SO close now!!  Can it be possible that this election will be more exciting than the last?  Too late to urge everyone to register, so I'll just say, everyone please vote!  You DO make a difference (don't start with that electoral college crap)!!


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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #230 on: October 13, 2004, 10:55:58 am »
what the hell is the electoral college?

It's an American thing... Each state is given X amount of points.  And if someone has 1 vote more the next, they win the state and X amount of points.  And someone needs X (270?) amount of points to win the election.  

So, someone who has more actual votes can lose the election, as they didn't win the electoral vote.  Just like what happened in 2000, Gore had more votes, but Bush won cause he had more electoral points.  

« Last Edit: October 13, 2004, 02:11:30 pm by GGKoul »

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #231 on: October 13, 2004, 12:15:34 pm »
what the hell is the electoral college?

It's an American thing... Each state is given X amount of points.  And if someone has 1 vote more the next, they win the state and X amount of points.  And someone needs X (270?) amount of points to win the election.  

So, someone who has more actual votes can lose the election, as they didn't will the electoral vote.  Just like what happened in 2000, Gore had more votes, but Bush won cause he had more electoral points.  


Bush didn't just win, we all won that year.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #232 on: October 13, 2004, 04:55:16 pm »
The electoral college is designed to offset the urban or highly populace areas from the rest of the country.  That was the issue in Fla.  Fla had 25 electorial votes.  It takes what, about 270 to win the presidency.  25 is almost 10% of the way.

Each state is assigned a number of electorial votes based on population. If a person wins 50.001% of the vote, he gets all of the electorial votes for the state.  Winner take all per state.

If a president won only by the popular vote, he would only have to campaign in about 1/3 of the country and appeal to them.  The rest of the country's vote would be worthless.  New York and LA would define the course of the nation.  Without the electorial college the whole voting landscape would change.  Eventually ONLY the 1/3 would vote.





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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #233 on: October 14, 2004, 03:48:49 am »
I really should clarify my "electoral college crap" remark.  I do think it is a good idea, for all the reasons fredster just pointed out.

What I meant was, don't start whining that I'm a democrat that lives in a republican state, Bush is gonna take the state, my vote doesn't count, waah waah waah....

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #234 on: October 14, 2004, 12:34:11 pm »
the electoral college is a complete friggin farce, and should be removed post haste..it is not a good idea, never was and never will be..its a crime..a crime against the foundation of our constitution..
last time i checked a vote means we all put our vote in a hat, count em up and whomever has the most votes wins..
thats whats a REAL election is...
the founders of this nation never intended for the notion of an election to be anything more than that....the number of people in a state , and it size are irrelevant..WE ARE ALL AMERICANS!
points?? what the hell is this a video game? this is our nations election! an election that appoints someone whom is quite possibly to become the most powerful leader on the planet earth.. i want our votes counted,a winner announced by volume, and beyond that nothing more..
what possible reason could there be for it to be any other way,except corruption ,in the most literal sense of the word..

« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 12:50:23 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #235 on: October 14, 2004, 12:50:28 pm »
DynaGod,

I guess by "friggin farce" you disagree with it.

It has been debated for 100 years.  The reason is to prevent large population centers controlling politics for the rest of the states.  

It's brilliant, like the rest of the constitution.

How can you even think it could be corrupted.  It was designed to keep corruption out of the system and balance it out.

Didn't you pass "government" in HS? It was a well thought out way to keep all of the people treated fairly.

We only hear this clap trap when Liberals lose.






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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #236 on: October 14, 2004, 01:39:22 pm »
 
Quote
The reason is to prevent large population centers controlling politics for the rest of the states.
ummm, do you realize what you are even saying?
we are all Americans! how can you balance out an absolute majority?

So,
in a classroom full of 50 kids..
if 15 of them vote for oranges,and 35 vote for apples.
everyone should get oranges becuase the 15 who voted for them were fatter than the 35 who voted for apples..
thats absurd!!

everyone vote should be equal..and not squelched by the imaginary geographic boundaries and demographic size of their state.im personally offended to think that the elctoral college system lessens the importance of my vote over that of someone in another state..

and NO...since you must know.. we didnt have goverment in my JH or HS school cause there were no books to be had. we had to share ancient out of date books with two other schools in the city and we rotated them by semester..
i went to one of the poorest,underfunded public school systems in america in the eighties.. but somehow i managed to become a design engineer despite all that..and  my education has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with a flawed misinterpretation of the constitution..whats right is right and whats wrong is wrong..
even a dog knows not to eat his own balls..
« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 02:27:57 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #237 on: October 14, 2004, 02:35:50 pm »
 ;D  Dynagod it sounds even though you had a bad situation to start out that you did learn something.  I think you need to study the electoral college setup.  It really is a thing of brillance for all the reasons fredster pointed out in his post.  Take a deep breath, think about it and you will find the thinking behind it.  At first blush is does seem kind of wrong but if you look at all the nuances it does make sense........just my two cents!
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #238 on: October 14, 2004, 03:52:53 pm »
im not upset at all,im just full of conviction :P

looking at fredsters post illluminates nothing for me..

 
Quote
The electoral college is designed to offset the urban or highly populace areas from the rest of the country.

Why?  
during an election there should be no boundaries, no borders and no segregation..for that one day the voices of all americans are to be heard,tallied  and the majority spoken for...  breaking it down by states and cities is fine for statistical analysis, but above and beyond that it has no merit and should certainly have no effect on the outcome of an election.

he elaborated by using the following example.

Quote
If a president won only by the popular vote, he would only have to campaign in about 1/3 of the country and appeal to them.  The rest of the country's vote would be worthless.

if a president won by the popular vote your saying that only states with the largest population would be  on the campaign trail during the next election period becuase those states alone apparently have the greatest number of popular votes.. and just how does that differ form the electoral system with its "swing" states. it simply strips the individual of his vote..its the same vice with a different name.
and to say that the rest of the peoples votes would be worthless is a mighty bold statement.

now,somehwat contradictory to the first stement..

Quote
Fla had 25 electorial votes.  It takes what, about 270 to win the presidency.  25 is almost 10% of the way.

if floridas population still controls 10% of the vote even under the electoral system ,then obviously they are still going to pander to that state..
so theres fundamentally no difference...
other than to make the votes of the individual mute.
your actually giving states with larger populations MORE influence,not less..as the system is meant to do..

its fundamentally flawed..
no single state should be the swing..a single vote should..
« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 04:00:26 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #239 on: October 14, 2004, 04:18:41 pm »
But as you can find in some elections the winner did not necessarily have all the big states but a collection of the smaller ones.  We all want to believe as Americans that we are all the same but we are not.  The wants and need of a farming family in Iowa can be very different then that of a inner city family or for that matter different then rural Ohio (a swing state).  We all need to make sure that our states are equally represented.  
     Some of our larger cities have more population then some entire states,,,,,,should policy be dictated by the needs of the bigger cities, no!   Policy needs to be implemented for the good of all.
    I don't mean this to sound like a slam down but you have a very limited view of the popular vote and you are not seeing the forest because of the trees.
   
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #240 on: October 14, 2004, 04:36:11 pm »
DynaGod,

You are right and you are wrong. Fundamentally, there is little difference in the popular vote and the electoral college results.  

IT did occur in the Hayes/Tilden election of 1876 and the Harrison/Cleveland election of 1888 due to the statistical disparity between vote totals in individual State elections and the national vote totals. This also occured in the 2000 presidential election, where Bush received fewer popular votes than Gore but received a majority of electoral votes.

The electorial college at least makes the candidates appeal to more states than they would have to without it.  I believe NY, CA, TX, and FLA would be the only states required if there were no electorial college.

But with it, they require more than just those segments of the country.  It would be particularly useful in a 3 party race.  Think about it.  The larger states still control most of the electorial votes.  CA is by far the largest.  

To see where the race is now - http://www.electoral-vote.com/
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #241 on: October 14, 2004, 05:24:29 pm »
Actually the 'electoral college' isn't just an American thing, we have a broadly similar system here in Britain but we use the term 'first past the post' instead of 'electoral college'.

However, regardless of the terminology used, it is still a deeply flawed system of voting.

My main objection is that it undermines the principle of one man one vote. Political parties tend to concentrate disproportionately on issues that matter to people living in so called 'swing states' because they are the people who determine the outcome of an election.

People who live in areas where one of the parties is very dominant end up feeling that their vote is wasted.

The system also tends to result in only two viable political parties and this reduces choice for the electorate.

It also encourages negative voting. A large section of the population inevitably find that the two main parties do not even remotely represent their point of view, so they are forced into the position of having to vote for the least bad party (from their perspective) instead of a party they actually want. This is turn can lead to voter apathy. I understand that about 50% of Americans don't bother to vote. I think this statistic speaks for itself.

The system can also stifle debate. You tend to find that on a wide range of issues the two main parties are in broad agreement so those issues tend not to get debated much in the media.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get a flawed voting system reformed as the main political parties have a vested interest in preserving the status quo. After all who wants to change the rules of a game that they're winning!
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #242 on: October 14, 2004, 06:26:31 pm »
It took months after the election for every vote to be counted in Florida, imagine if every state had to go through that.  The 2004 president wouldn't be declared a winner until the 2008 elections.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #243 on: October 14, 2004, 07:13:09 pm »
i think you put it far more eloquently than i could have Grasshopper, well said.  ;D

applause!!



« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 07:14:03 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #244 on: October 14, 2004, 08:54:27 pm »
Quote
To see where the race is now - http://www.electoral-vote.com/
what kind of magical imaginary data is this based on?? Polls??no one asked me??
the entire notion and concept of polls is flawed and sways opinions artifically..asking 30 people what they think and then portraying their concensus as the overall opinion of all americans is in and of itself a misleading practice , this practice is increasingly being perpetrated by the biased media and it needs to stop..when a news company is owned by politically interested parties, that entity cannot be trusted to be an impartial source of accuratee and impartial information for public consumption during an election season..polls have become a political tool,or more accurately  a political weapon..they are grossly out of proportion to the views of the true majority of americans, and tend to only reflect the interest of the media holdings that so carelessly present them. thi sbecomes clear when the same poll on two channles with different party interests contradict,as is the case nightly....
Sadly, people cant differentiate reality from the poll fodder theyre fed by the media..Some people,whom cant think for themselves, actually misconstrew this as the overall opinion of their peers and take it as fact and misleadingly base their votes off this crap.. the media has too much influence..and polls are a tool of manipulation..polls are a reflection of a minescule minority of the american people...but the media would have you think its everyone..
and anyone who thinks that that electoral vote has any foundation in grand scope reality is allowing themselves to be led down a dark path..


« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 09:23:38 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #245 on: October 14, 2004, 09:04:39 pm »
Well...polls are a usefull resource and, when done correctly, are excellent predictors.  

www.electoral-vote.com is run by a democrat and is criticized, unfairly I think, for leaning left.  At any rate, I hardly think Fredster can be faulted in this case for using biased information, cos if there is a bias it is not in his candidate's favor.
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #246 on: October 14, 2004, 09:09:58 pm »
delete me
« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 09:18:54 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #247 on: October 14, 2004, 09:17:58 pm »
i disagree, polls are a usless resource...
if we spent less time and effort analyzing, disecting, manipulating and playing information warfare in the media and simply let the votes speak for themselves, then people might actually feel empowered and start going back out to the voting booths..
this is the same kind of crap that hurts our economy daily..
a stupid rumor about a particular sector gets out in the am,totally false as it is, by noon people are selling like crazy and drives that sector into the ground anyways despite its being nothing more than unfounded conjecture. .
its called manifest destiny..and polls are the perfect example of that,,if you start a rumor,,some people might actually be foolish enough to beleive its fact and thus make it happen..

let me also say before i continue on,, i have no party affiliation left or right. or middle.i hate all parties equally..  whomever is best for the nation is my choice. im not interested in clubhouse fandom..
sadly such an individual has never in my voting lifetime been up to the task..im sadly left with the whos not the worst vote..
« Last Edit: October 14, 2004, 09:21:40 pm by DYNAGOD »
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #248 on: October 14, 2004, 09:22:10 pm »
Well....chicken-or-the-egg notwithstanding, polls have proven themselves to be quite accurate predictors of election outcomes.  I'm not saying they're good or bad or speaking to any possible self-fulfilling prophesy effect they might have.  I'm just saying they work pretty well.  
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #249 on: October 14, 2004, 09:34:01 pm »
THAT'S the spirit dynagod!  ;D

Go ahead, buddy, let your smile be your umbrella!

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #250 on: October 15, 2004, 02:58:03 am »
People who live in areas where one of the parties is very dominant end up feeling that their vote is wasted.

The exact same thing happens with your "one man, one vote" idea.  Rural, sparsely populated areas have no hope of their votes counting against urban, densely populated areas.  In America, everything would be decided by New York, Los Angeles, and maybe Chicago.  North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, West Virginia, Rhode Island, all would effectively have no vote. For example, Dade County, Florida has more people than the entire state of West Virginia.

How is this better?

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #251 on: October 15, 2004, 03:17:02 am »
I don't think the electoral college has anything to do with why we have only 2 parties.  If the DrewKaree party campaigns on a platform that many people agree with, it can gain the same status as the Republicans & Democrats.  I think Ross Perot showed us all that you can start your own party.
I think that the real reason for the problems with the political system is simple: APATHY.  It is much easier to say, I don't like either candidate, I'm not voting, than to look at how alternative candidates stand on issues.  If you honestly believe that both candidates suck, you shouldn't vote for either one.  There are other choices, and if none of them suit you, you have to pick one that fits your ideas the best.
It doesn't matter if we had 100 parties, there still would not be one that holds my views exactly.  So I have to compromise somewhere.  But no matter what action I take, it is better than taking no action.

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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #252 on: October 15, 2004, 07:29:01 am »
Quote
THAT'S the spirit dynagod!

Go ahead, buddy, let your smile be your umbrella!

Buck up little camper, turn that frown upside down!

can you feel the love  ;D
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #253 on: October 15, 2004, 10:16:37 am »
rofl. you really ARE drew carey, aren't you?  ;D
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #254 on: October 15, 2004, 02:17:52 pm »
um, my ipslay are ealedsay
First I'VE ever heard of THAT!   ;D

oops...darned innuendo  ;)
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Re:1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #255 on: October 16, 2004, 01:13:01 am »
LOL, Danny, I just saw your "portrait" on the other thread.  Classic, man, classic!  A monacle indeed!  :D

nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more...

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #256 on: February 09, 2005, 04:18:41 pm »
For Dartful Doger...  :D

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2005, 04:56:33 pm »
Ooh oooh.....give us a rhyme (or something that very nearly rhymes)!!!!!
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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #258 on: February 09, 2005, 05:11:25 pm »
In advance of the knuckle dragging....

"BUSH W0nZ0rz!!!!1111" OMGZ11!!!1 LOL!!!


mrC
« Last Edit: February 09, 2005, 05:33:19 pm by mr.Curmudgeon »

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #259 on: February 09, 2005, 11:29:54 pm »
HAHAHA

I spend too much time here...  Jokes that span across threads.

And oh yeah:

Get over it.  Your guy lost by the most biggest votes evar!  Now watch me en Enus drive dis pickemup back over dat der hill yonder.  YEE HAW!  Four more years!   Four more years!  All your earl are belong to us!
 ;)

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #260 on: February 10, 2005, 12:49:27 am »
I always thought John Kerry should have capitalized on that "Four more years!!" chant by making "Four more years???" signs.  That's what I hate about him, though.  He ran a crap campaign. 

Left wingers shouldn't hate George Bush.  He did just about everything he could to get himself booted out of office.  Nobody is more responsible for Bush's "four more years" than John Kerry.  That's who the left wingers should be pissed at.

Anyway....c'est la vie.  No use getting into this again.

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #261 on: February 10, 2005, 11:32:39 pm »
You're right shmokes, the dems need a better PR guy.

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #262 on: February 11, 2005, 04:59:06 pm »
You're in luck, Howard Dean will take over running the show from Terry McAwful now.

That guy knows how to raise a few bucks.
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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #263 on: February 19, 2005, 06:49:47 am »
You’re always in control of your behavior. Sometimes you just control yourself
in ways that you later wish you hadn’t

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #264 on: February 19, 2005, 04:26:43 pm »
I remember this thread fondly.

I wish I had a football to spike. Guess they needed "1001 reasons"  ;D

Kerry was such a bad candidate. And his wife didn't help.

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #265 on: February 21, 2005, 10:22:17 am »
I remember this thread fondly.

I wish I had a football to spike. Guess they needed "1001 reasons"

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Re: 1000 Reasons not to vote for GW
« Reply #266 on: February 21, 2005, 12:53:46 pm »
You're right shmokes, the dems need a better PR guy.
They need 3 million more voters.