Mame - Good or Bad for the Arcade Biz ?

[SirPoonga]

How can mame not hurt real arcade games when they copy all the games    this is my last post on this subject

Because it doesn't copy ALL the games.  Only the ones that aren;t making money in the arcade industry.  therefore it can't hurt the industry.  Plus not enough people use mame to hurt the industry, partly because it isn't emulating the latest and greatest.  Now go to emulator site that does, there are plenty of those.  But mame isn't one.

[krick]

What about streetfighter

[the3eyedblindman]

I loved Mortal Kombat 4...

[Howard_Casto]

No that's not it.... with the exception of mk4 (which btw went gold in the arcades, so it was very much a success) 

console sequels of mk games have been quite good and have outsold even the wildly popular mk2 in sales. 

As a matter of fact, the only game that didn't see success in the arcades was mk3 (not umk3)  the very game you a praising. 

This isn't about opinions btw... it's about sales numbers. 


The reason midway decided to quit producing the games in the arcades is becuase it's less cost-effective to do so.  Midway would have had to design a brand new arcade system to handle the mkda graphics engine.  This costs a ton of r&d money.  And in a day when maybe one fighting game a year (if they are lucky)  breaks even in the arcade industry.. it's much simpler and profit oriented to make a game for the consoles, which almost guarantee that you break even as long as the game is playable. 

So basically.... sony, mcrosoft and nintendo killed the arcades with their cheap... graphically impressive consoles, and their reluctance to create a arcade system based on their hardware. 

[pointdablame]

Thats exactly my point (point) money is to be made elsewhere because its so easily coped

you cannot honestly say that the only reason people prefer consoles is because it can be copied.  That is a very pessimistic and skewed view of reality.

The arcades are dying because people don't want to go to them anymore.  They'd rather play their games at home than spend $1 or more on one round of gameplay.  It has nothing (or very little) to do with ease of copying.

People don't NOT go to arcades because they can play them on MAME... thats a silly point of view.  Perhaps that is what you do?  But as SirP said, you can't get 90% of what is currently in arcades in MAME.

[fredster]

No, my point is people won't rebuild old machines because of mame.

[tommy]

Thats exactly my point (point) money is to be made elsewhere because its so easily coped

you cannot honestly say that the only reason people prefer consoles is because it can be copied.

[tommy]

No, my point is people won't rebuild old machines because of mame.

    shakes fredsters hand   

[jbox]

I'm not a 'hard-core' arcade fan, and the 2nd hand cab I am mameing is almost as old as I am. However, I spent a lot of time with arcade machines in the 90's and have nothing but good memories of that time (Gauntlet, Golden Axe, Double Dragon, etc...).

But I have to agree that the "arcade industry" is on it's way out in the general case, because the console market is what they were always going to turn into anyway. Every new product starts off being this completely customised thing, with craft and love put into making each one (and a huge price tag to match). Then eventually someone works out how to mass-produce it and it becomes a commodity. Many of these companies that you lament for are still making games, still using their creativity and enthusiasm for your enjoyment, only now it's the supply chain that has changed. Trains -> Cars, Mainframes -> PCs, Arcades -> Consoles.

This so called group of "People" who are allegedly being led astray by MAME have already voted (ie. this discussion is academic). They have said loud and clear that they don't want to have to buy a new 20" monitor (or CPU) with every game they buy, or pay $40 to finish a game once instead of $80 to finish a game as many times as they want (and then lend it to a friend), when they could buy 30 games, 1 console and 1 huge plasma screen TV for the same price. Jamma and the like were a step in the right direction, but the massive drop in consumer TV (and CPU) prices to me heralded the end of the TRON-esque arcade era since it's just not *cost effective* to link in all these components to a single game. Sure, they will still hang around (just like Apple Macs), but as an exception to the mass-market like this site right here. As a kid I bought Donkey Kong, Greenhouse and a few other games as individual units. Now I have a GBA with these kind of games as *cartridges*. Where is your outrage for kids not getting the classic hearing-aid battery games anymore?

Now, as many people have pointed out there is a niche market still available because the two key exceptions to this rule are custom hardware and friends. At least while both of these can't be made in large numbers super cheaply (yet)... 

[D_Zoot]

 Sure, they will still hang around (just like Apple Macs), but as an exception to the mass-market like this site right here. As a kid I bought Donkey Kong, Greenhouse and a few other games as individual units. Now I have a GBA with these kind of games as *cartridges*. Where is your outrage for kids not getting the classic hearing-aid battery games anymore?

Now, as many people have pointed out there is a niche market still available because the two key exceptions to this rule are custom hardware and friends. At least while both of these can't be made in large numbers super cheaply (yet)...

Gaming, both as home collectors of original machines, or Mame builder has never been "mass market".

[RayB]

wow, merging the threads makes it real confusing... but anyways,

the END WORD on this is this:

The arcade industry was in a steady and quick decline WAY before MAME ever existed. By the late 80's, all you saw was stinker after stinker (most of it side-scrolling, poor imitations of Final Fight). Street Fighter II was responsible for a brief resurgence in arcade popularity and profits in the early 90's. It's been downhill from there. (and this is not my opinion, but the facts).

[D_Zoot]

So was the original question regarding Mame and arcades, or Mame and the home market?

It seems to have gotten confused in this thread...   

In regards to Mame and Arcades, I'm with Ray.  The industry was in big trouble long before Mame was even an idea in someones skull.  Mame didn't even make it worse.  The industry came on too quickly and burned out quickly with all the original ideas happening early on, then nothing but re-runs after that.   Consoles killed it the rest of the way.  Why spend your money in an arcade when mom and dad bought you -insert name of console here-   for Christmas and you can stay at home and play for free?


D

[SirPoonga]

No, my point is people won't rebuild old machines because of mame.

That may be very true in Mame circles, such as this forum.  But outside of the world of Mame there is a large, and growing, community of game collectors going stong.

It works for this group too.  Look at the projects forums.  Fixing up old cabinet projects show up all the time.  I bought a double dragon II cabinet because I wanted a real arcade machine.

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, merging didn't quite go the way I expected. 

The point of the whole matter of the fact is mame will not kill the arcades.  There is no reason that it would.  The reason that it won't is because what mame emulates isn;t in the arcade and never will.  The mamedevs have rules for allowing games into mame.  !) has to be older than 3 years old  2) Must not be making money.

A good example of this is the new golden tee golf driver.  Al though it has had the ability to be emulated in mame for years, since IT was making money on it mame the mamedevs did not release the driver.  Now the IT isn't supporting that game they put it in.  So tell me how that is hurting the arcades?

[jbox]

Okay, after re-reading this thread I'm not sure I'm answering the right questions.

A comment such as this one:

But I think it's really BAD for the arcade business. Classic machines are worth less. People don't want to spend lots of money on repairs.  Cabs are tossed away and more people are getting out of the business.

makes me think we are talking about the arcade hardware market. In other words MAME has had only a fraction as much impact as Intel has on destroying the arcade market. All hardware companies must update themselves with the time to match what is currently the best way to make stuff.

However, a comment such as this:

No, my point is people won't rebuild old machines because of mame.

make me think we are talking about the arcade hobby market. Hobby markets are typically built around people who *experienced* the original in some form and wish to recreate that feeling either to recapture the emotional bond or to prove they have 3l33t skillz. Yes, I think MAME has diverted a small fraction of border-line people like myself who might otherwise be more interested in buying "originals", but the cold hard truth is that you al' are gittin' olda grandpa. The hobby market is most likely going to decline for the same reason all our friends don't like to rebuild old Model-T Fords (because modern cars "are just cheap knock-offs"). I mean there *are* people like that out there, but they're just people with too much time on their hands...

Computerised gaming as we know it will still continue to advance, and reach into new fields we don't currently expect it to.

[fredster]

I myself am one of those people.  I made my own Mame machine.  I also salvage dead originals, repair them and rotate them in and out of my own collection.  I'm not alone in doing this. 

No your not alone, that's what I do too. And y'all might be right.  The 30-40 somethings control the prices in this. They remember the arcade and spent a lot of quality time there. Once they are gone, the arcade machines will be only in museums.

The only arcades left are at Chuckie Cheeses. The new arcades are like computer rooms playing halo and creating clans.  That's cool too.

The market goes up and down.  Just like trading cards and comic books and other collectables.  I just don't think there is the drive to repair them like there was.

[tommy]

Sir p

[Gunstar Hero]

tommy... someone not buying a Galaga from a private seller doesn't effect the arcade business. The only way that MAME would kill the arcade business is if MAME machines replaced real machines in arcades.

On a funny note, Konami is pissed because PS2 based DDR clones running home software are replacing their expensive DDR machines in arcades.

[Tailgunner]

The way I see it MAME mostly wets the appetite of people for the original games. Sure some people are happy playing on a MAME cab, but others who were hard core into a preticular game back in the day aren't satisfied with emulation.

In my case, Spy Hunter is a good example. It's available in MAME, it's also available on the Williams Classics CD for PC. Neither come close (IMHO) to actually playing Spy Hunter on a dedicated sit down cab. If I had to sell either my MAME cab or my Spy Hunter cab, the MAME cab would be out the door in a New York minute.

[tommy]

Ok guys im not so much talking about business arcade,talking about the  idea that there wont be an original game anymore     -tommy

[pointdablame]

Ok guys im not so much talking about business arcade,talking about the  idea that there wont be an original game anymore     -tommy

There will always be enthusiasts.... MAME will never destroy that.  I personally LOVE galaga.. and I WILL own one when I get my own house and more disposable income.  I know I'll pay whatever it takes to buy/restore/make my own Galaga.  There are also a handful of other games I'd really like to own.  I know this is the case for a large portion of people here.

MAME emulates games great... perfect almost.... but some games just don't feel the same.  Whether its a control issue, or color differences, or just a personal feeling of "this isn't right"  you just can't replace a real game in many people's minds.  Original games will always have a demand.  MAME is great, and I love the idea that I can play 1000s of games with one machine.  However, that doesn't mean that I would replace all the games I could potentially own for that one MAME machine.

it's just not the same... and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Paul Olson]

Before MAME, it never would have occured to me that I could have an arcade machine in my home.  I may never own a dedicated machine, but then again, if I had more money and space I would probably have quite a few.

Ok guys im not so much talking about business arcade,talking about the  idea that there wont be an original game anymore

Despite the fact that we can play games with MAME, this is exactly the reason it was created.  The machines will not last forever, and MAME will ensure that the games are not lost.  If the MAME team reaches their goal, there won't be a difference between the originals and the emulation.  Their goal has always been 100% emulation.

Paul

[SirPoonga]

Ok guys im not so much talking about business arcade,talking about the

[Dartful Dodger]

There are a lot of posts in this thread and I do a lot of skimming and skipping so this point may have been touched on already.

When I was a kid they introduced Beta and VHS, and renting movies.  At the time everyone was afraid that this would kill the movie theaters.  It didn't.  Today you can download the latest movie a day after it was released.  The movie theaters are not dieing.  Arcades are dead because know one wants to go to them.

Times have changed, kids have other interests, and adults who grew up in the arcades don't have the time for them.

It's sad to see them go, and I wish there was some magical reason they are gone, but it's because there is no longer an interest in them.

When we are dead, do you think your kids want a 6 foot box in their house which is dedicated to playing games that fit on their watches?  We remember the arcades; they will remember dad and his geeky friends playing on it in the basement.

If your kids don't throw out or sell your Mame machines after you are dead, your grandkids will.

I would have liked to have kept my dad

[shmokes]

I didn't read very much of this thread.  Sorry if this is a repeat.  But how could MAME cause the death of the arcade?  Do some informal research.  Ask 100 random people over the age of 10 if they know what an arcade game is.  You will most likely get 100 affirmative responses.  Then ask 100 people if they know what MAME is and you will most likely get 100 negative responses. 

I could understand it if people were saying, "Why go to the arcade when I can just emulate for free?"  But hardly anybody outside of us hardcores is even aware of emulation.  If they felt like playing an arcade game they would have no alternative but to go to the arcade because they are unaware of an alternative.  The problem is that they don't feel like playing an arcade game.  Why play an arcade game when there's a console or two plugged into the TV in the next room?

 

[fredster]

Looks like Ultramark is making a move -
http://www.ultracade.com/openoffer.pdf

"We have no desire to use the M.A.M.E. name or logos; we simply wish to
find ways to prevent illegal distribution of classic arcade games. We
will be happy to cancel our application and work with the M.A.M.E. team
to assign it to its rightful owners; however we do want to prevent it
from being awarded to someone that intends to use it commercially."