Somewhat moral dilemma

[Drnick]

Having had an Iphone 4S for the past 30 months or so I decided it was time to upgrade,  I check online for the best deal to upgrade to a Sony Z2 for me a Nokia 1020 for the wife with both being on a 4G network.

Carphone warehouse who are now referred to as Cartoon Warehouse had the best deal.  I order the devices, They turn up but no Sim cards I think this won't be an issue as going from Orange to EE,  (Now referred to as PP) But alas, we should have received Sim cards.  It then transpires that there were sim card numbers with the order but the numbers given were incorrect. Duh no suprise as there were no sim cards.  As such the contract got cancelled at PP's end of things with no charge to me at all but I still had the phones.

I spend a week trying to sort this out with Orange/PP/Cartoon Warehouse. Including getting a couple of 30 day sims from EE but in the end its a bust. It looks like nobody has any records of the contract ever happening or anything.  Most people I speak to about this tell me to just keep the phones and see what happens.  Nope I am more honest then that so I just return the phones to Cartoon warehouse and tell them I don't want them, they don't belong to me. "You gave me them, they must be yours"  Eventually they accepted them back although I am sure that the guy was basically trying to tell me "Take the damned phones and keep your gob shut they're free"

I then go direct to Orange upgrade department and they go "No problem we can match that price everything will be out to you within 48 hours"  New phones arrive. I charge them up. I put the wife's new sim in her new phone, Yay it works, within an hour her number was transferred and its all good.  I put my new sim in my phone, Nope cannot register to network.  Hmmmm odd, I try a different sim card, Yep phones good.  OK maybe I got a crap sim I know I'll call PP and get this all sorted no problem.

Call PP, They check the system,  find order all looks good but could take up to 24 Hours to register. Hmmmm I think to myself  24 Hours to port number? Probably but 24 Hours to register on network No.  I give it 24 Hours anyway to be met with cannot register on network.  Call PP again, OK it looks like Orange never actually sent through the upgrade request. OK back on phone to Orange, No problem we will send the details over to PP again.  48hrs later still nothing. Call them again again, "Oh we're not sure what's happening let us put you through to upgrades again as it looks like you can still upgrade".  OK we have run that through the system again it should all be sorted now.  I then get a text "Sorry to hear that you have decided against upgrading to 4GEE"  Anyways more phone calls to Orange/EE and they really have no idea what has happened. I check the account, Nope only 1 phone and contract on there.  My Iphone is still on the old Orange contract and can still be upgraded to a nice shiny new phone at any point I like.

As you can guess I still have the Sony Z2. Orange still say I can still upgrade and they don't even recognise the IMEI of the new phone.
EE say nope only the 1 phone and contract. It would seem that fate really really wants to give me a free (Well £4.99) £400+ Mobile phone. 

My Question is "What would you do?"

[pbj]

You're under no legal or moral obligation to correct their mistakes.  You went above and beyond trying to sort things out with an incompetent company. 

[Slippyblade]

You're under no legal or moral obligation to correct their mistakes.  You went above and beyond trying to sort things out with an incompetent company.

I agree with PBJ 100%.  You did your due diligence to correct their error and fulfill any moral obligations on your end.  If it helps ease your mind at all, at this point in the game it would actually cause the businesses in question extra trouble due to them receiving product that is unable to be inventoried.  The phone is yours.

[Generic Eric]

Do it.  Capitalism is not about morality.  Its about bending the law to increase your profits.  You did everything you could do.

Capitalize my overseas brother! Capitalize!

[ark_ader]

You're under no legal or moral obligation to correct their mistakes.  You went above and beyond trying to sort things out with an incompetent company.

Unfortunately we are talking about the UK (not the USA) and you can be done for receiving goods that do not belong to you.  I know CPW as I worked for them as a consultant for their O2 network (which is no more) and I know their delivery issues, which are third party either city link or yodel.  I don't think my Hermes has this problem.  Anyhow the issue is with the delivery service returning the said goods to the depot and back to CPW.  CPW should return the handset back to stock.  Another worry is the mobile numbers that are missing, which can smack you if someone locates them and activates, thus running up a huge bill.

In the old days you could get away with it, but now they do audits, and you will either get an invoice for the phone or a debt collector.  Keeping said phone is stealing, and if you get caught will ruin your life.

Take the phone back in its box to a CPW store in the high street and get a receipt.  Don't be a knob. Just man up and do the right thing.  You will sleep better.  Moral dilemma my arse. 

[Generic Eric]

Well, for Pete's sake, don't do the wrong thing.  Ark is speaking to your interest and well being.  Probably better to listen to him than me.

[Howard_Casto]

For the record, doing the right thing is always the right thing to do. 

If you walk out of a store after realizing that the cashier forgot to ring something up (or charged you incorrectly) and you don't say anything, don't kid yourself... you are stealing.  Yes it takes extra effort to walk back in and get things sorted out, but it's the right thing to do. Unlike piracy, there isn't a gray area here... when you steal from a company it becomes a loss of profit and the costs are passed on to the other consumers.

It is annoying that the company you are dealing with is so terrible.  I would suggest not buying anything from them in the future, but you don't get to keep your ill-gotten gains. 

[Slippyblade]

If you walk out of a store after realizing that the cashier forgot to ring something up (or charged you incorrectly) and you don't say anything, don't kid yourself... you are stealing.  Yes it takes extra effort to walk back in and get things sorted out, but it's the right thing to do. Unlike piracy, there isn't a gray area here... when you steal from a company it becomes a loss of profit and the costs are passed on to the other consumers.

However, walking out of a store after realizing that the cashier forgot to ring something up, going back in and the store manager proceeding to tell you that, "No, that's not from here.  Why are you trying to return/pay for it" is an entirely different story.

[eds1275]

Or worse yet the cashier gets canned for an honest mistake.

[Drnick]

I would never do anything to get a cashier fired.  And I did return the phones to CPW,  this time it is EE themselves who sent me the phone 

[ark_ader]

I would never do anything to get a cashier fired.  And I did return the phones to CPW,  this time it is EE themselves who sent me the phone 

If you already have a criminal record, then by all means continue with your lack of good judgement and lack of character.  It doesn't matter which firm, CPW phones4you (same company) O2, TMobile, Orange or EE. If you cannot get the issue sorted out go to a CAB office or your local constabulary.  I mean common sense should have kicked in by now.

I went to ASDA bought Star Trek for the 360 for 29.99 and paid by debit card.  I didn't ask for cash back nor did I get hit on the card.  The cashier gave me sixty quid back.  I asked for the manager and resolved it right there and then.  The cashier would have been retrained and was still there last time I went in the following week.  Any other lad would pocket that cash, or would return it.  It was the honest thing to do, and what my parents brought me up to believe.  Honesty is the best policy, regardless if it was a penny chew or a bloody iPhone.

It would not be funny if you got a knock on the door from the police or even a special, booked and got your name in the local gazette.  They can trace phones now.  I get angry about this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- as I have to pay expensive tariffs and phone insurance due to mobile phone fraud and theft.

Sort it out. 

[Howard_Casto]

I also find your lack of morality disturbing.  It's not right man, send it back.

[Drnick]

@ Ark - Wow not like you to sit on the fence    Although I'm not overly happy with having my character called into judgement I'll ignore it for what it is. 

Remember the question wasn't "What should I do?"  it was "What would you do?"

FFS it's not like I haven't tried to get it sorted out, I haven't even taken the protective wrapping off the phone this time on the basis that it will most likely have to go back. I know full well that keeping it and saying nothing means that eventually an audit will take place and someone will go "Duh how come we never got paid for this phone" and then chase me up. But is it now my responsibility to have to deal with 16 different departments none of which seem to talk to each other to resolve all this. As it currently stands I have notified PP that they have supplied me a phone that they shouldn't have and if they want it back they can send me a bag/box with prepaid shipping and handling for it to go into.


 

[ark_ader]

@ Ark - Wow not like you to sit on the fence    Although I'm not overly happy with having my character called into judgement I'll ignore it for what it is. 

Remember the question wasn't "What should I do?"  it was "What would you do?"

FFS it's not like I haven't tried to get it sorted out, I haven't even taken the protective wrapping off the phone this time on the basis that it will most likely have to go back. I know full well that keeping it and saying nothing means that eventually an audit will take place and someone will go "Duh how come we never got paid for this phone" and then chase me up. But is it now my responsibility to have to deal with 16 different departments none of which seem to talk to each other to resolve all this. As it currently stands I have notified PP that they have supplied me a phone that they shouldn't have and if they want it back they can send me a bag/box with prepaid shipping and handling for it to go into.

What fence?  If you have a criminal record then your future is not looking good, versus a moral upstanding citizen who holds the law in high esteem and protects it with his actions.  This post of yours is not about us, it is about you and the dodgy mentality that is plaguing the youth of modern Britain.  You see an opportunity but need some sort of comradeship of approval before you make your final decision.  I think that is ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up.

The phone must go back recorded delivery to EE in a signed for bag.

 The next damn day, unless you were going to keep it.

Your character is being viewed by thousands of visitors to this site.  Moral dilemma is your title.  You want to keep the phone and something in your brain is telling you no.  I wonder what that could be?  If you want an iPhone just buy it or get a two year contract.  Personally I would get an android.. Phones and blocking is in the press right now.  Do you really want to be looking over your shoulder?  No you are smarter than that. This thread is like one big wind up and I'm not happy with you now. 

The lack of respect for the laws surrounding physical theft by dishonesty by those who posted in here beggers belief.   

[pbj]

So, let's put aside the mental gymnastics of being an emulator enthusiast and pontificating about theft.

I don't care what weird country you live in, being able to prove that a customer actually ordered what you're billing them for is such a fundamental business principle that I'm shocked this forum seems so unaware of it.  If they've sent you something and don't ask you to pay for it, or you didn't order it, it's yours.  Anything you do above and beyond that is a matter of feeling good about yourself and wasting everyone's time. 

There will never be any audit by a crack team of investigators resulting in dire penalties for you. 

These things happen, they're aware of it, and it's compensated for in their finances. 

It's never wrong to do the right thing, and you made an honest, good faith effort.  They didn't want to deal with it.  Case closed.

 

[Drnick]

Ark, Did you get out of bed the wrong side this morning or is it just your naturally affable nature that makes you react in this manner

But let me help you along with some points not in any particular order.

1) If you want an iPhone just buy it or get a two year contract.  Personally I would get an android..  -    Someone didn't keep up, I have had the Iphone for 30 months (For which I have paid Orange/PP the best part of £1300 to have the pleasure of using said apple device.  If I had bought the Iphone outright on day 1 and then used a pay monthly sim only package I would have probably saved around £500 as It is rare that I use more then 100 minutes a month.  In this respect Orange/EE have already had enough money to cover the cost of the new phone out of me. Which is a Sony Z2 (ANDROID).


2) I have no criminal record and no intention of getting one.  I am not going to spend time looking over my shoulder worrying that the rozzers are going to come kick the door down and march me away to the nearest Nick to charge me with wilful theft of property. As it stands the worst that would happen is the IMEI gets blocked and they send some debt collectors round. For it to be classed as a criminal act they would have to prove that I was trying to withhold and or deprive PP of what is theirs. I am not and never have, if they would like to try though it would be fun listening to the recorded conversations with their various so called customer service representatives and managers. On multiple occasions their own employees have said "Well it looks like someones given you a free phone"
 
3) Not sure about the Youth of Britain, Yeah they are a crazy bunch who want everything for nothing But I am not the youth of Britain I am more like the new Middle age of Britain Being that I am 41.

4)  The next damn day, unless you were going to keep it.    Thats just it, I do want to keep it, It's the phone I ordered from them I just want them to make the Sim chip live and move my number over to it. Just complete the order as agreed or supply me with the means to return the phone is all I would really like.

5) The lack of respect for the laws surrounding physical theft by dishonesty by those who posted in here beggers belief.        -  Now this would be true if I had any intention of cashing the £100 Cashback cheque that I just received from Cartoon Warehouse 


6) Quote from PBJ - It's never wrong to do the right thing, and you made an honest, good faith effort.  They didn't want to deal with it. Case closed.
I think I'll go with this one.  I've made it clear that their phone is here and all they have to do is arrange for it to be collected. 

[Diet_Pepsi]

There is no moral dilemma from my standpoint.

He ordered a product that he intends to use.

The product was shipped and he was not billed (high level summary, but that's the way I see it).

He has advised the supplier more than once that he has not been billed.

If it were me I would use the product and wait for the bill.  If I received a bill I would pay it.  If I were charged interest I would dispute the interest charge only.

Collection agency?  I would expect to see a bill first before that happened (which I would pay).  Criminal charges?  No way.

[knave]

There is no moral dilemma from my standpoint.

He ordered a product that he intends to use.

The product was shipped and he was not billed (high level summary, but that's the way I see it).

He has advised the supplier more than once that he has not been billed.

If it were me I would use the product and wait for the bill.  If I received a bill I would pay it.  If I were charged interest I would dispute the interest charge only.

Collection agency?  I would expect to see a bill first before that happened (which I would pay).  Criminal charges?  No way.

This is the right thing to do.

[Drnick]

Well I did what I wanted regardless.  After somewhere in the region of another 4 hours on the phone to various people I finally got it sorted. There is now a new Sim chip for the phone in the post to me, Number is being ported as well.  They did thank me for my honesty though as it turned out that they would never have known that I had the phone if it wasn't for me contacting them on multiple occasions.

Hopefully this will allow Ark to sleep a little better at night knowing that there is nothing wrong with my character 

Now to just see what happens when I return the cheque to Cartoon warehouse.

[ark_ader]

Hopefully this will allow Ark to sleep a little better at night knowing that there is nothing wrong with my character.

Life is full of temptations.  A true moral dilemma would be finding a bag full of money, not a  £400 device that can easily call back home.  That aside I am glad it took several of my posts to change your mind, which I think was necessary due to the rip off Britain mentality in your head, and the lack of common sense.  Your character is still questionable due to the comments you made in this thread, but I am sure over time people on this board will forget.

How about next time you spare us with these simple morality issues and just do the right thing and resolve it.  Nothing is worse than having to tell a grown adult to behave and remind him of his civic duty.