I haggled on a used van today

[Generic Eric]

I haggled on a used van today.  Way out of my comfort zone.  Got them to move $500, but they wouldn't go any farther.

I walked away.  It felt good. 

[yotsuya]

Did you try the cash-in-hand trick?

[Generic Eric]

Did you try the cash-in-hand trick?

No, but I did leverage what the bank was going to loan us for that particular van.  We have a low interest rate with that bank. 

[Ginsu Victim]

[yotsuya]

Bad-ASS!

[BadMouth]

My dad owns an antique shop and takes random stuff in trade all the time.
Around Christmas, he had late 80's/early 90's model 10 passenger van that he was trying to get $1k out of.
It's taken a lot of willpower to keep myself from buying it.  I don't need it, but it's only $1k and there are so many cool things I could do with it (that would probably involve me sinking another 1k into it).

I keep putting off checking to see if he still has it, hoping he won't by the time I ask.

[pbj]

Only trick I've got on new car buying is get pre-approved on the financing elsewhere but don't mention it until you've seen whatever deal they can offer. 

Last salesguy tried to play chicken with me over the down payment I'd have to plunk down.  Alright, no problem, here you go.  Oh, and here's the bank I'm using, so let's forget about that ---smurfy--- 10% rate you're "making an exception on this because your credit is only 'pretty good'."

Damn thing is financed at 1.4%.  Yeah, I'll get RIGHT on paying that off early.   

[Howard_Casto]

So your all thinkin' about vans are ya. 

All of you, with your "disposable incomes" and your "jobs" that allow you to "spend money".

WELL LA DE FRIKKIN DA!

YOU'LL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO ADMIRE VANS... WHEN YOUR LIVIN IN A VAN... DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

[TKW4rr10r]

Oh lord the van talk...
I've actually been looking. May have to sell the mustang when we start on offspring number two. And wanted something that I could either haul a bunch of people or 1-2 cabs when needed.

If looking new can't really beat a Dodge Grand Caravan RT for the money. But if used, something about a late 90's Previa that really struck me, and I wasn't really looking forward to getting a van before looking at them. Was way ahead of its time and if you find a one in decent shape it will last forever. Tell someone you got a mid-engined, supercharged import and then show up in this for laughs 


But really, the coolest option would be to get a mid to late 60s forward control van like a Falcon or A108, something with the extended wheelbase and tricked out.


Yeah, I've been giving this way too much thought, as usual. 

[SlammedNiss]

[Vigo]

^
|
|

Best car in F-Zero 

[BadMouth]

So your all thinkin' about vans are ya. 

All of you, with your "disposable incomes" and your "jobs" that allow you to "spend money".

WELL LA DE FRIKKIN DA!

YOU'LL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO ADMIRE VANS... WHEN YOUR LIVIN IN A VAN... DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

HAHA!  Actually, the thought crossed my mind.
Then I wouldn't have to work a job I hate just to make enough disposable income to distract me from the fact that I hate my job. 

[jennifer]

    OMG... If you look close at the lake pipes on that "Close Encounters" van, You can still see the burnt ankle skin.

[wp34]

That Close Encounters van is awesome.  I remember back in the day I wanted a Chevy Van decked out like that.

[shponglefan]

So your all thinkin' about vans are ya. 

All of you, with your "disposable incomes" and your "jobs" that allow you to "spend money".

WELL LA DE FRIKKIN DA!

YOU'LL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO ADMIRE VANS... WHEN YOUR LIVIN IN A VAN... DOWN BY THE RIVER!!!

The best part of that scene was watching David Spade and Christina Applegate trying not to crack up. 

[BadMouth]

[RayB]

I don't need it, but it's only $1k and there are so many cool things I could do with it (that would probably involve me sinking another 1k into it).

And insurance?

[Xiaou2]

When my car bit the dust, I decided on a Minivan.  Got a used Town & Country.   I Loves her so much...

 Im just not sure I can afford to keep feeding her       Shes such a hungry beast!

 But she takes all the  scrap & or new bought wood, parts, computers, tools, arcade machines, pinball machines,
side of the road finds, furniture, appliances,  scrap metal / parts,  groceries,  etc...  with no complaints.   (seats fold down into the floor)

 Doubles as a shelter, if I were to need it...   

 Has pretty decent pickup for its size, and rides smooth as a cloud.  Great stock multispeaker sound system as well.


 Another collector had an older model van, and we used to cruise in it to all the pinball shows and arcade auctions, before it bit the dust.
Now hes driving a dodge caravan... which is essentially the same as the T&C.  (just a little easier on the gas guzzling)

[BadMouth]

I would never trust a minivan made by Chrysler.  Have a coworker that loves them. ('cause they're "Dodge people")
Has owned 3, all purchased brand new.  They've had to replace the transmission in every one of them.  Multiple times IIRC.
....but the dealership assured us that the new model wouldn't have the transmission troubles the last one had.
I don't know why they kept falling for it. 

My dad had one from the 90's that lasted a couple hundred thousand miles.
Of course the transmission was replaced twice.

[Xiaou2]

Might depend on how people abuse them.  Mine is like 96k,  but I got it used.. so who knows.

 Its the T&C, and the higher liter engine..  only gets 24mpg highway  Ugg.   Has a tranny cooler on it, in case you wanted to use it to tow.. but there is no hitch hooked up to it.

 The mechanic at the shop said I got the 'good' model...   saying that the newer models are not build as well as this one.
Said the engine in this one, will just keep on truckin...   probably outlasting the body   >.<

 Gona see if they will replace the Trans. regardless, before the warranty is up.

 Wondering if lower repair costs will offset the higher MPG costs.  Probably not.. but who knows.   So far, not much has been needed.
Compared to my fist car, a Chevy Cavalier,  Im in heaven.  Hated that Cav.  I could barely fit into it..  it had horrible pickup, had a fault which caused the pullys to squeak and squeal..   although, it did have a 13yr run..  it wasnt exactly a high mileage end.   Trans locked up on it, after I blew $1200 on a complete muffler system.  Joy.

 Actually, I hate Vehicle$.   

[wp34]

We had two Dodge Minivans and I'll never own another one.  Nothing but trouble.

I've had a Dodge Dakota for 10 years and it has been a great vehicle.  I can't see ever owning another Dodge unless it is The General Lee though.

I would never trust a minivan made by Chrysler.  Have a coworker that loves them. ('cause they're "Dodge people")
Has owned 3, all purchased brand new.  They've had to replace the transmission in every one of them.  Multiple times IIRC.
....but the dealership assured us that the new model wouldn't have the transmission troubles the last one had.
I don't know why they kept falling for it. 

My dad had one from the 90's that lasted a couple hundred thousand miles.
Of course the transmission was replaced twice.

[pbj]

The F150 had a good, mostly glorious, run but everything else American I've owned takes a major ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- shortly after 100,000.  Truck got to 147,000 and was on the verge of something major. 

As much as I hate giving money to the treacherous Japanese, I buy their cars.

 

[jennifer]

    I bought a 86 Camaro Iroc last fall and drove the stupid thing down to mailbox, then into the bushes,  I hated it because it has like a freaky glass roof...So Jennifer still drives the 77 Cadillac (When I can afford some gas).

[DaOld Man]

I used to own a 77 chevy van that was customized. Beautiful van, I will see if I can find some pics of it. I bought in in the early 80s so if I still have any pics I will have to scan them. Drove it for nearly 10 years.
I loved that van, it had a 350 engine and drank gas like I drank beer back then. But gas was cheap then, compared to now.
So was beer.

[BadMouth]

As much as I hate giving money to the treacherous Japanese, I buy their cars.

I've owned 4 little Toyota pickups with the 22R four cylinder engine.  Sold each of them with over 280k on the odometer.  Never did anything but routine maintenance (except for the carbureted one I drove underwater).  The guy who bought the last one was exporting it to Guatemala for a hefty profit.

    I bought a 86 Camaro Iroc last fall and drove the stupid thing down to mailbox, then into the bushes,  I hated it because it has like a freaky glass roof.

T-Tops were the greatest thing ever.  They need to make a comeback! 

[yotsuya]

T-Tops were the greatest thing ever.  They need to make a comeback! 

[Howard_Casto]

My 92 has T-tops.  They are awesome in theory, but in practice they kind of suck ass.  I'm sure back in olden times before a advent of air-conditioning they were great, but now days they are just one more thing that requires weather stripping and unlike a full blown convertible, you don't really get that open air feeling with them removed.  I do like em' for the fact that it gives me a bit more head room though.... sports cars must be made for really short people... that's all I'm sayin. 

[lilshawn]

As much as I hate giving money to the treacherous Japanese, I buy their cars.

You know I used to rag on jap cars, but I'll tell you, you can not beat the fuel economy. my 08 nissan versa gets way better gas mileage than my '10 Dodge Caravan (obviously) but it has almost as much horsepower as the Dodge's V6 (122hp vs 197hp) with it's 4 banger. and it's 1/2 the weight.

Went roadtrippin' through the mountain passes this weekend for a fundraiser and drove 980km (600 miles) one way... filled up once (at 1/4 tank remaining)...got home and l had 1/4 tank when i got there.  my dodge is a 2 stopper on that same trip and it's tank is WAY bigger.

I didn't even attempt to try and drive conservatively and save fuel.  probably could have had 1/2 tank if I didn't drive a buck 30 the whole way.

[eds1275]

If I were to drive a van, it would be a 1983 GMC, like my hero.

[SNAAKE]

pbj ??

[DaveMMR]

    I bought a 86 Camaro Iroc last fall and drove the stupid thing down to mailbox, then into the bushes,  I hated it because it has like a freaky glass roof...

I think you have my old car (86 Camaro with T-Tops).  If you tell me it has a poorly replaced driver's side mirror that'll be pretty freaky. Fun little car even if sometimes it really didn't feel like starting.

And yeah, I did love having the t-tops but in practice I almost never took them off.

[ChadTower]

Only really good advice I've ever been given about buying a car that doesn't involve being in the right place at the right time is to never NEED the car the day you're shopping.  Don't wait until your car is on the lift with a dead transmission to decide to buy a car.  You have all sorts of options while that 145k Ford is still running.  The second it's in the shop you have surrendered all of your options and all of your leverage.  Those extra 3 months of no payment gained by waiting are not worth getting a garbage deal on the next car.

[BadMouth]

This beauty is going up for auction in a few hours just down the road from where I work.  ....forgot to bring my checkbook.


EDIT: Interior is more than I'd ever hoped for!


Look at how thick that shag is!

[pbj]

Only really good advice I've ever been given about buying a car that doesn't involve being in the right place at the right time is to never NEED the car the day you're shopping.  Don't wait until your car is on the lift with a dead transmission to decide to buy a car.  You have all sorts of options while that 145k Ford is still running.  The second it's in the shop you have surrendered all of your options and all of your leverage.  Those extra 3 months of no payment gained by waiting are not worth getting a garbage deal on the next car.

The $2,000 cashier's check I got for that Ford probably set a world record for fastest deposit.     NO BACKSIES.

[smalltownguy]

I haggled on a used van today.  Way out of my comfort zone.  Got them to move $500, but they wouldn't go any farther.

I walked away.  It felt good.

Nice job, wasting the sales person's time.

The car industry has changed, the days of haggling for hours on end on price are long gone. With the age of digital inventory, everyone knows what every car is worth, period. If dealers don't list the vehicle for their best price right away, they won't get any ups on it. Simple as that.

Next time try shopping a car that actually falls in the price range you can afford. Fishing tactics like that will get you zero love from dealers. They will remember your name, and you probably won't get a call back next time.

[Hoopz]

Screw the dealers.  They try and screw the buyers and it's just a big game.  The best thing buyers can do is walk away.  If a salesman doesn't like me, that just means he hasn't fleeced me.  I have zero interest in not wasting the dealer's time.  They can come down more to stop wasting my time.  Their business model is antiquated as is their attire.   

[ChadTower]

Last time I was vehicle shopping I walked around the grounds of a Toyota dealership for about 45 minutes.  I was looking to buy a Tacoma that day, had $5k cash in my pocket and bank financing already lined up.  All we had to do was figure out which model and which options.  I was all set to do a deal.  30 minutes of wandering around got no attention so I went inside to ask for help.  I was told to go back outside and a salesman would be with me shortly.  15 minutes later, still nothing, I looked inside and barely anyone was on the phone, so I got in my car and drove away.

That was 2009, too, when new car sales were so slow that dealers were going under in our area.  I ended up buying a 2008 Tacoma off Craigslist a week later.

[smalltownguy]

Screw the dealers.  They try and screw the buyers and it's just a big game.  The best thing buyers can do is walk away.  If a salesman doesn't like me, that just means he hasn't fleeced me.  I have zero interest in not wasting the dealer's time.  They can come down more to stop wasting my time.  Their business model is antiquated as is their attire.   

I'm glad you feel comfortable typing that on your keyboard. Had you said that to my face, we'd have a problem.

I work for a General Motors dealership, and I see how hard our sales people work to meet their customers needs. If they don't please their customers, they don't make sales. If they don't make sales, they don't make any money, and they lose their job.

I take offense to your blatant generalization. We're running a business. To make money. We are not in the business of fleecing customers. It does not promote repeat business.

If you feel you're not being treated with respect as a buyer, LEAVE. No one should be mistreated in a business, especially the customer.

[pbj]

That was 2009, too, when new car sales were so slow that dealers were going under in our area.  I ended up buying a 2008 Tacoma off Craigslist a week later.

Man, I went looking for a truck around that era, too.  Went to some Dodge dealer as many of them were advertising new Rams for less than <$20k.  Salesguy takes me to a new truck so cheaply made that Dodge should have been ashamed of themselves.  "This one is $27,000, and the price goes up from there."  "Uh, what about the $18k one in the paper?"  "Can't help you with that" and he walks away.

Ended up fixing the F150 and keeping it another 4 years.   

[Hoopz]

I'm not worried.   

It's business after all.  They try to take me for as much money as possible.  I try to spend as little as possible.  How many times do they not tell the uninformed buyer about a rebate?  How often do they keep that money?  Bah, I have zero sympathy for salespeople like that.   Again, that business model is changing and it's for the better.  Even the FTC stated that the states screwing Tesla aren't allowing for competition which is hurting the consumer.

I had a buddy who owned a Ford dealership.  We both knew when I was buying from him that it was a game.  He wanted to make as much money as possible and I wanted to spend as little as possible. 

[eds1275]

Though your GM dealership may be the exception to the rule, and I'm not saying it is, I have yet to find a salesman (car, real estate, even appliance) who is willing to take what the customer says is their budget and work within it. They always "have to show you this one thing, and it's a little more than what you can spend, but..." or find something where the sticker price is near the mark but then the bottom line is way over after all is said and done. While it often makes for a sale, the consumer is angry for being pressured into overspending, and will likely not be a repeat customer.

[smalltownguy]

Though your GM dealership may be the exception to the rule, and I'm not saying it is, I have yet to find a salesman (car, real estate, even appliance) who is willing to take what the customer says is their budget and work within it. They always "have to show you this one thing, and it's a little more than what you can spend, but..." or find something where the sticker price is near the mark but then the bottom line is way over after all is said and done. While it often makes for a sale, the consumer is angry for being pressured into overspending, and will likely not be a repeat customer.

Sorry that's been your experience.

www.johnsonmotors.com

Feel free to call and ask for Brad Lutz (that's me). I'll put you in touch with a sales person that actually cares about your needs.

I certainly hope we're not the exception to the rule. Dealers cannot afford to disregard customers' needs. They won't stay in business long if they do.

[ChadTower]

Man, I went looking for a truck around that era, too.  Went to some Dodge dealer as many of them were advertising new Rams for less than <$20k.  Salesguy takes me to a new truck so cheaply made that Dodge should have been ashamed of themselves.  "This one is $27,000, and the price goes up from there."  "Uh, what about the $18k one in the paper?"  "Can't help you with that" and he walks away.

Ended up fixing the F150 and keeping it another 4 years.   

I remember that, actually.  Your F150 had electrical problems and the dealer was racking up hour after hour of diagnostic labor.  Pretty sure I also remember that you said you bought a Tacoma, had posted a pic or two, and made a bunch of comments about how you didn't want to be "truck buddies".  That sticks out because I had never heard the term before.  Those are among the posts that weren't restored, though.  Might have been the pbj "Die In a Fire" thread.

[yotsuya]

I have a neighborhood dealership I buy my cars from. Bought my last two from them, all parties walked away happy. 

[pbj]

I remember that, actually.  Your F150 had electrical problems and the dealer was racking up hour after hour of diagnostic labor.  Pretty sure I also remember that you said you bought a Tacoma, had posted a pic or two, and made a bunch of comments about how you didn't want to be "truck buddies".  That sticks out because I had never heard the term before.  Those are among the posts that weren't restored, though.  Might have been the pbj "Die In a Fire" thread.

Well, it sat in the shop a month and ended up with a ton of parts replaced and a new computer.  The final damage was about $1,400, and I got another 4 years out of it so I can't complain.  Other than that, the truck was flawless until the last six months and I had it around 12 years.

There was a Tacoma I came very close to buying, but ultimately did not.  I wouldn't have intentionally posted that I bought it but god knows I wasn't seeing too clearly by that point.


 

[BadMouth]

I went to a dealership to buy a Mercury Cougar when they were relaunched back in the late 90's.  (a fact that I'm embarrassed about now)
After doing a test drive to make sure that it was what I wanted, I gave the sales guy my offer.
He looked at me confused and said "I don't know where you got this number from, but THIS is the price" while pointing at the MSRP. 
I was horribly insulted and ready to leave at that point, but he scurried away to "talk to the manager" and left me sitting there for 20 minutes.
All that did was give me time to stew, get more pissed off, and resolve to buy the car elsewhere.
When he came back, he asked if I was ready to sign some papers if they'd give it to me for the price I offered.
I said "That's exactly what I tried to do 20 minutes ago.  I will buy this car, but I'll be buying it elsewhere."

I actually ended up buying a V6 Mustang instead.  That dealership didn't jerk me around, but would not budge from $500 above what I wanted to pay.  (my number never moves).  So I walk away, but get a call after I get home.  "I'm sorry, we didn't realize that you were the husband of a relative of the owners, of course we can knock that last $500 off."  Got the car for what I wanted, but was kind of annoyed that I needed to be related to get it for that price.

When shopping for a low mileage used car for my wife's aunt at the same dealership that had the Cougar, I scoffed at the price of the first car we inquired about.
The saleswoman said "You might want to try one of those dealerships with a gravel lot."
It was a friggin Nissan Sentra.    It's not worth 5k more because it's on a paved dealership lot.  Her aunt couldn't find a used car she liked, so ended up buying a brand new one elsewhere.  Might have been there had they not insulted us (again).

I used to work for a GM supplier.  That was pretty nice.  We had a no-haggle supplier price + any current incentives.
I'd just print out a paper at home and take it to the dealership.  The only issue there was making sure you knew all the current incentives, otherwise the dealership would try to keep those for themselves.

My last vehicle was bought when GM was on the verge of going bankrupt, before the gubmint stepped in.
GMAC wasn't doing any financing and the future of the company was uncertain.
I made out pretty good.  They seemed happy just to be unloading inventory.

I haven't dealt with buying a new car under normal circumstances in over a decade.

[pbj]

My last two cars have been Scions.  I don't have the time or inclination to play games with dealerships.  Used car prices are so ridiculously high that I bought brand new, which is something I've never thought I would do.

[Hoopz]

The only issue there was making sure you knew all the current incentives, otherwise the dealership would try to keep those for themselves.

Damn right.
Everybody feels that way and it's not predicated on anything but fact.  Well, not the shady salespeople, because they see it as their right to keep it.

I take offense to your blatant generalization. We're running a business. To make money. We are not in the business of fleecing customers. It does not promote repeat business.

The sales person wants to make as much money as possible.  It's the nature of the salesperson and what motivates them.  With people hanging on to their cars longer now, salespeople aren't as motivated by getting a repeat customer as that's not guaranteed.  Keeping the incentives, hold back, etc is just lining their pockets.  Don't take it personally, it's the weasel factor of salespeople. 

[yotsuya]

BadMouth, your stories remind me of the time my wife and I went car shopping. The saleslady was showing us a car with a sunroof, and my wife joked with her, "Being here in Arizona, you really need it to be a moonroof." The saleslady didn't get the joke and starting rudely insisting that it was called a sunroof, going on and on even when my wife tried to explain that she was just kidding. Needless to say, we didn't buy a car there, although we still get a laugh thinking about her reaction.

[lilshawn]

all car salesmen are weasels... new and used... although more so on the used side.

I did some audio installs for a few months at a used car lot I bought car from (mainly to get a great deal on the car) and man oh man, the stuff i'd seen. 

if a car came in with anything of value on it, it was gone. nice wheels? nope, steel rims and hub caps. nice poioneer aftermarket radio... NOPE, stock H/U went in.

i did some nice installs though. (sometimes even with said removed equipment) I think the manager was probably using my sweet installs as a selling point.  He sold a guy a car and upsold him a new stereo system that not even a week before was in there already. kinda makes me sad thinking about it now.

All said and done i got my car for less than 1/3rd of what the sign in the window originally said though. 

[pbj]

Last salesman found out where I work and what I do, and proceeded to give me this sob story about he was going to go back and finish college and, by golly, he's gonna be something some day.  Then showed me pictures of all his sports car projects and just because he's a car salesman doesn't mean he's a loser.

I mean, let's get real, my broke ass in here buying a Scion.  I'm sure he makes twice what I do.  The ship has kinda sailed on needing to impress me... but here we are.... while we wait for the computer to churn paperwork....

"See, this is just temporary, I'm going back."

"How long have you been selling cars?"

"Oh, about 7 years."

 

[lilshawn]

"See, this is just temporary, I'm going back."

"How long have you been selling cars?"

"Oh, about 7 years."

 

yeah, that's not happening. 

car salesmen have to be making somewhat decent money (if they are good at selling anyways) otherwise they wouldn't continue to do it.

car salesmen make most of their money on the upsells...

the theft protection etching
the carpet/upholstery protection
extended warranty
breakdown assistance
etc.

someone once said a car costs between 1000 and 3000 to actually make. dealers pay slightly over that... and you get hosed with the rest.


i have to laugh, on the radio they have  "jus over invoice" or "pay waht the dealers pay" or even "fahmily pricing" yeah family ---my bottom---...you'd hose your own family to sell a car.

[Generic Eric]

I haggled on a used van today.  Way out of my comfort zone.  Got them to move $500, but they wouldn't go any farther.

I walked away.  It felt good.

Nice job, wasting the sales person's time.

The car industry has changed, the days of haggling for hours on end on price are long gone. With the age of digital inventory, everyone knows what every car is worth, period. If dealers don't list the vehicle for their best price right away, they won't get any ups on it. Simple as that.

Next time try shopping a car that actually falls in the price range you can afford. Fishing tactics like that will get you zero love from dealers. They will remember your name, and you probably won't get a call back next time.

They wanted more for the van than the bank that was loaning us money would approve the loan for.  Dealers might have changed in your area, but the old guard still operates here. 

[RandyT]

Just had to upgrade my "get big stuff" vehicle from our upstate NY, salt-ravaged 97 Expedition to an MS, "rust-free" 06 F-250 Diesel.  I've never owned a vehicle newer than three years old, and I expect to drive them for at least 10 more years.  Can't really afford to do it differently.

I've had decent experiences at dealerships, but also got the "let me check with my manager" and "family story" performance at one many years ago, which consumed about 4 hours of my time.  I did eventually buy a vehicle that day, but I also swore that I would not go through it again.

The way I bought the new (to me) pickup was something I never thought I would do... I bought it on ebay.  I did the whole carfax and seller research thing, reviewed the "test drive" video and photos, etc.  In the end, you have to feel good about the seller, and I did.  The transaction went mostly without a hitch, with the only issue being the local bank screwing up the wire payment (no fault of the seller).   The real issue came with getting it shipped.  I had based the cost on shipping quotes shown by ebay, which originated from U-ship, and they were unrealistic for a vehicle of this size and shipping origin.  If you think the car salesmen are seedy, you haven't seen anything until you start dealing with the shipping companies (brokers).  Many of which require deposits prior to them getting a carrier assigned (a common scam), promise low prices and can't deliver, and so on.  Some of the tactics of the worst outfits (usually those with the lowest quotes) border on harassment.  It took spending more with a different company than I originally started the process with, to actually get it done, but took over two weeks to get to that point.

In the end, the truck arrived without damage, was exactly as represented, and I managed to save about 4k off book price, all of which made me happy.   So, it can be done, but the stress of dealing with the details of going this route, makes the dealership shenanigans seem quite mild in comparison.  Considering the number of things which could have gone horribly wrong, I'm considering myself fortunate and wouldn't recommend this approach to everyone.  But if you are feeling adventurous and find the right deal, it may be worth considering.