Any place to get CRT monitors anymore?

[Mr_Numbers]

Have you asked at Arcadeflorida.com?  I was just glancing around and seen a few monitors for sale and it would probably be the best people to ask if someone local has something to sell you for a reasonable price.

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, the Gamecube outputs 480p in "progressive scan," and 480i otherwise.  When you switch to it, you should see either a bunch of garbage, rolling screen, or nothing at all, assuming the display is 15kHz only.

NES is 256x224p, same as most SNES games.  TV's that support 480p will stay be able to display it, but it usually won't be that native resolution anymore, it will be scaled by the TV.  If you can still see distinct scanlines exactly between each line of graphics, you can be sure it's actually displaying the native res, which will be the case with a 15kHz-capable display.  However, if you can't see the scanlines, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not displaying native res.  On some older display the dot pitch is just too coarse to leave that space in between lines (picture is clear enough).  If the dot pitch is very fine, you will still be able to see faint scanlines even if it has been scaled up, there will just be twice as many of them and they won't all be in the right places.  After you've become familiar with proper scanlines it becomes very obvious what to look for, but if not the 480p test is much simpler to interpret.

[Yeltsew7]

And the 480p won't kill the TV?  If I remember correctly there are some pretty distinct scanlines on the Phillips.  But that might just be because I sit two feet away from it on the floor.

[rCadeGaming]

It has never hurt any of the Sony's I've worked on, and I've given them all kinds of signals they couldn't sync to.  TV's should have some kind of protection so a consumer can't break it by connecting a 480p signal or some king of 50Hz PAL signal or something.  Arcade monitors lack this protection sometimes.  From what I've heard, some monitor will just fail to sync up like a TV, but can actually be actually be damaged.  Just to be safe, *don't try the 480p test on arcades monitors.*

[Yeltsew7]

Like this?

[rCadeGaming]

Picture of the 480p test?  Looks like garbage to me!   It passes.  How does NES look?

[chopperthedog]

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=305943
Was very happy with the last 2 I got from this seller and just ordered a couple more.


good day.

[Yeltsew7]

Picture of the 480p test?  Looks like garbage to me!   It passes.  How does NES look?

The NES is actually a clone system, and just to clarify it is hooked up with RCA cables.
Here are some pictures I took: http://imgur.com/a/aBBJ8
And just in case here is a Model 2 Genesis, again hooked up with RCA cables.
http://imgur.com/a/PoDIn

[rCadeGaming]

The composite signal makes it slightly less clear, but it doesn't change the resolution coming from an old system.  You can see it's proper 224p from both shots.  It's especially clear in the text close-ups.

[Yeltsew7]

Well I guess that means I'm all set.  This TV is the perfect size, it shows the right resolutions, and it has the right hookups.  Thanks for all your help, I never expected for this thread to go to 2 pages.
One more question and then I think I can stop bumping. If I am using CRT_emudriver, and I want to play a game that is 640x480, like Tekken, will it show at 480i?

[rCadeGaming]

No problem.

Did you decide on a transcoder?  How about the service menu on that TV, can you get into it?  You'll find the overscan will be a lot more noticeable once you start displaying arcade games.  Unlike console games, which were designed with the excessive overscan commonly found on TV's in mind, many arcade games are designed to make full use of every inch of the screen.  You'll notice things like health bars and score displays getting cut off.

Also, I was not intending to steer you away from arcade monitors.  Tons of members here have had great success with them.  They are, after all, the originally intended hardware.  I just had more to share about the options using TV's because that's where my knowledge lies.

[rCadeGaming]

Ah, and yes, with GroovyMAME/CRT_Emudriver you can tell it to use 480i for anything that won't work in native resolution.

You should head over to the GroovyMAME section to start researching that stuff.

[Yeltsew7]

I think I will use the TV for now and save up for a tri-sync CRT.

[Zebra]

I have a Billabs BL25C90t tri-sync arcade monitor. It is one of 4 arcade monitors that I have seen that is still available new. Mine is 24.8" autosync model that does CGA, EGA and VGA automatically. I got it new for $435 and they are still available. I don't know this for a fact but I think it is the same as the Neiman 24.8" autosync monitors. It looks the same in the pics and specs.

The crt is flat and it is an A tube (just like old crt tv's) with a dot pitch of around 0.8mm so you get an authentic looking image instead of one with jagged edges like you see on broadcast monitors with fine dot pitches. My Ikegami broadcast monitor has a pitch of .31mm so the black spaces between scanlines are a little too thick for my taste.

The Billabs has a 15 pin d-sub connector and a 6 pin molex connector. The latter is meant for jamma pcb's that output 5volt rgb signals. Using my arcade vga, I don't get any image at all on the 6 pin molex without using a vga amp which I got from ultimarc. The monitor accepts cga, ega and vga through the 15 pin d-sub so, in theory, that is all I should use with my arcade vga but IMO cga games look better through the 6 pin molex (plus the amp).

With the amp, the image looks brighter with more contrast and as a result, graphics look like the real pcb. When I use the lower voltage gpu through the d-sub, the graphics look almost too clear and defined. The image blooms less so scanlines look a little too prominent and jagged edges become visible. Using brightness and contrast adjustments in mame can help a little but it is not the same as a real 5 volt signal.

The problem I have with using the 6 pin molex connection is that the image rolls every time I switch resolutions (even if both resolutions are in the cga range). This might be fine if it was hooked up to a single pcb but a rolling image every time I change a game in mame is too annoying to live with. I don't have this issue when using the vga connection.

If anyone has this or a similar spec multi-sync arcade monitor, I would be interested to know if you have problems with keeping sync when using an arcade vga / video amp combo with composite sync?

I suspect that, while the monitor can handle composite or separate sync, the simple combiner circuit on the video amp does not result in a sufficiently clean sync to achieve a stable image. I had problems with getting composite sync from my arcade vga when I used my old broadcast monitor and had to buy an extron rgb interface to make it work.

I wanted to try the video amp with the 15 pin d-sub connector but I am worried that I might blow something on the monitor. Does anyone know if this will work or not?

Btw, on using a crt tv with an arcade vga or soft 15khz, I used mine with a 27" Sony trinitron for a while. I used a jrok encoder to change the rgb output to either s-video or component. Both worked fairly well. There were a few issues though. A number of Sony Trinitrons and wega models will not sync to 54hz for games like mortal kombat or R-type. The image was blurry at the edges on my 1997 trinitron (but not on my 2003 one). The aperture grille used on Sony Trinitrons does not look the same as the shadow masks used on most arcade monitors. The image was great on the Sony but the scanlines were more prominent than on an arcade monitor. It was very difficult to get a clean enough sync for a stable image without an rgb interface and, properly grounding the jrok board required steps that weren't in the instructions.

On the plus side, a late model (15khz only) sony crt with component  input is very close in image quality to an rgb monitor. The 2 formats are very similar. If you can find a decent shadow mask tv with component (and with a curved screen) it is a good choice for an arcade monitor. The image controls in a Sony Trinitron's service menu are superior to anything I have on my analogue arcade monitor.

[rCadeGaming]

Thanks for the detailed comparison.  I have been looking for an account like that for a while.

With the amp, the image looks brighter with more contrast and as a result, graphics look like the real pcb. When I use the lower voltage gpu through the d-sub, the graphics look almost too clear and defined. The image blooms less so scanlines look a little too prominent and jagged edges become visible. Using brightness and contrast adjustments in mame can help a little but it is not the same as a real 5 volt signal.

Can't you get this look through the d-sub input by adjusting the monitor's brightness, contrast, and color drive settings?

I wanted to try the video amp with the 15 pin d-sub connector but I am worried that I might blow something on the monitor. Does anyone know if this will work or not?

That input is looking for ~0.75Vpp video.  It may not like 5V.  Not really worth trying, as even if you don't damage anything, it's not likely to look too good.

A number of Sony Trinitrons and wega models will not sync to 54hz for games like mortal kombat or R-type.

Unfortunately yes, these have to be compromised.  There are only a handful of games in MAME with such low refresh rates that I would consider worth playing, but yeah certain Irem and Midway games are among them.  This and the horizontal bowing due to the flat tube are my only issues with my Trinitron.

The image controls in a Sony Trinitron's service menu are superior to anything I have on my analogue arcade monitor.

Do you have any geometry problems with your arcade monitor that you'd need better controls to correct?

[Zebra]

Hi RcadeGaming you can't get the same look using the 15 pin d-sub input as you get with a 4 volt signal through the molex connectors. I have tried adjusting the contrast and brightness on the monitor and also using the mame adjustments. The result just looks different. My arcade monitor needs the brightness and contrast at close to max when using the D-sub port so that probably doesn't help. When using the molex, contrast and brightness pots are both at less than 50% before the image becomes super bright.

Other than the smoother edges you get from the higher voltage signal, it seems to need the extra volts to get accurate colors. In Street fighter 2, Ryu's clothes look almost beige in most mame screenshots I have seen but they are bright white in most pics of the game running from a real PCB. No matter how hard I have tried, I have never been able to get authentic colors from mame without the video amp. I was able to get fairly close by increasing the blue and reducing the green and red gamma on my monitor but not close enough for my taste.

In addition to my arcade monitor, I have a 27" Sony Trinitron and a 20" Ikegami broadcast monitor. The Ikegami is top of the line as it was an $18,000 grade I master monitor in it's day. It has inline self converging guns and auto color calibration so it's fair to say that it has fairly accurate color. The beige / yellow tint that you get from mame games is most evident on the ikegami and is only partially compensated for by adjusting the color balance pots.

The weird exception with the 4volt signal is Neo Geo games which just ghost when you increase the contrast. They look better with a 1 volt signal and some contrast / gamma changes in mame.

Mame has some decent image adjustments in HLSL settings. It is a shame they aren't available with the shaders.

I don't have any noticable geometry problems on my arcade monitor. I was just saying that the digital service menu on my Sony Trinitron has far more options for tweaking the image. In particular, I like how you can adjust the screen height in the center, seperatly from the height at the top and bottom of the screen. This lets you compensate for the squashed graphics you get on some games in mame due to not being able to get the exact native resolution. The closest resolution to street fighter 2's 384 x 224 with my arcade VGA is 392 x 240 which makes Ryu look fat. The Sony menu allows that to be corrected without cutting off the top and bottom of the screen.

Still, not being able to play mortal kombat and R-type at native resolutions on the Trinitron was annoying and most of the ones I have seen look blurry at the edges which made me angry. The image on my broadcast monitor was too sharp for my taste with thick black scanlines and jagged edges. The image on my arcade monitor was just right (well it will be eventually). Also, being able to play Sega Rally and Daytona without interlacing is nice.

[rCadeGaming]

Sounds like you need a custom amp circuit to adjust things around 0.75Vpp to get the d-sub input looking like other one.

[rCadeGaming]

Also, I appreciate how discerning you are.  I think someone like you ought to ditch the ArcadeVGA in favor of CRT_Emudriver.

[Zebra]

I did eventually ditch the arcadeVGA. I now use a Radeon 4890 with CRT emu and soft 15khz for custom modelines. I also ditched windows 7 and got XP. I'm using a Xeon E3 for my mame machine. The Xeon chips are like the regular ones except no onboard video and they run cooler if you leave them on 24/7.

I am much happier being able to play every game at exactly the right refresh rate and resolution. I'm using make plus 158 which gives you native res and refresh rates from a handful of modelines (like groovy make but with better options and more user friendly).

Here is a pic of Samurai Showdown at 224p

http://postimg.org/image/c7i05wtxf/

Here is street fighter 2 at 384 x 224

http://postimg.org/image/g691wrocj/

I now spend more time playing than adjusting settings.

Btw, no adapter would be needed to convert the signal down to .7v. That is what PC graphics cards put out natively. The issue is that many arcade monitors were set up to be used with the higher voltage signals from jamma pcb's. Lower voltage signals look less bright and have lower contrast. This can be adjusted with pots on the motherboard but the result doesn't have the same glow and bloom as the high voltage one.

The video amp outputs a signal on bare wires so it is easy to use with the moles connector. You would need another adapter or breakout board to feed a high voltage signal into the d-sub port so there is no point. I use my d-sub port for PS3 games which I play at 480p with an hdmi to VGA adapter.