Any place to get CRT monitors anymore?

[Yeltsew7]

Are there any places to get CRT monitors anymore? Or any kind of arcade monitors for that matter? The only places I can find are http://www.arcademonitor.com and Suzo-Happ.  Suzo-Happ is only LCD and that super expensive, huge MakVision monitor.  I tried calling MakVision and I only got "Please call Suzo-Happ".  http://www.arcademonitor.com seems to be dead too.  Again, calling them only resulted in a voicemail. My text that I sent them got kicked back to me with an error.

Has it come to the point where the only ways to get monitors that support the needed resolutions are on eBay?  That in itself seems like a bad idea to me.  Combined with the fact that many of them are "local pick-up only", and the chance of getting a broken/tinted/burned in monitor, the risk seems too high.  I just got into this hobby about a year ago, and it seems that I won't be able to complete my project with a new-but-old monitor.  Please, if anybody  knows where to get these, they don't even need amazing picture qulity, please tell me.  I'm also on a budget of about $400 for the monitor, but any way, post where you got yours.

EDIT: I have come across Twisted Quarter, they have 4 monitors that look appealing to me.  Has anybody dealt with them before?

The tri-mode 24.8" flat-screen CRT, which is my favorite of the three, and will probably work the best with my graphics card, which is NOT ArcadeVGA http://www.twistedquarter.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200_201&products_id=1630

This 27/29 CRT with a flat screen and CGA/EGA/VGA, so I won't fry it when I boot up my computer.  BUT DAMN $525, and I'm sure it's worth a lot, but $525!? This might end up being a $1000+ project! http://www.twistedquarter.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200_201&products_id=325

This 19" LCD, it's small and LCD, but at least it supports the resolutions I need and more. Does anybody have experience with LCD screens?  Also, how small are 19" 4:3 monitors?  I have an older 18" LCD (not arcade), but it's 16:9 and it is SMALL.  But I haven't used a 4:3 screen is a while, so I have no idea what it is like.  Would SF2 and other games that were originally on 25" monitors still look alright on it? http://www.twistedquarter.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200_202&products_id=507

[Dawgz Rule]

For the money, using a 15KHz  TV with an RGB to Component transcoder seems to be a good option.   

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1288832.html#msg1288832

I keep an eye on craigslist and have managed to pick up two 24" Trinitron's for about $20 each.  I often see 27" models listed for free.

[mgb]

I was talking to Betson Enterprises a couple of weeks ago. They still have 27" tri-sync CRTs but that's about it.

[chopperthedog]

I've nabbed 9 working 19" monitors over the last 6 months between craigslist and KLOV. It's a good feeling to have "ready to go" replacements sittin' on the shelf.


good day.

[Slippyblade]

Phoenix area Craigslist has had a guy selling 19" CRT's for a month or so now.  They are used, supposedly refurbs for $99.

[Yeltsew7]

Phoenix area Craigslist has had a guy selling 19" CRT's for a month or so now.  They are used, supposedly refurbs for $99.

I've nabbed 9 working 19" monitors over the last 6 months between craigslist and KLOV. It's a good feeling to have "ready to go" replacements sittin' on the shelf.
good day.

Does the Craigslist in my area just suck?  I can't find any arcade monitors, and full cabinets are $1500+.

[Yeltsew7]

Actually, is there any reason to not get a LCD?  They all say that they can "replace your aging CRT monitors".  If it can show the resolutions right, then I might like it.  The one on Twisted Quarter had a VGA in, so I don't even have to mess with wires and that Video Amplifier from Ultimarc.

[Slippyblade]

The only reason not to go LCD is nostalgia.  Some folks want to emulate the old-school arcade experience as closely as possible and demand CRT.  I, personally, don't care enough about authenticity to put up with the extra work and just use LCD.

I think scanlines are nasty artifacts that need to go away and just don't understand why some folks purposely add them back in.  Pin-cushioning drives me nuts.

[Yeltsew7]

The only reason not to go LCD is nostalgia.  Some folks want to emulate the old-school arcade experience as closely as possible and demand CRT.  I, personally, don't care enough about authenticity to put up with the extra work and just use LCD.

I think scanlines are nasty artifacts that need to go away and just don't understand why some folks purposely add them back in.  Pin-cushioning drives me nuts.

Well I would like to come as close to the "retro" feel as I can, but I have to admit: those little knobs to adjust the hold, the weight, the pain to connect to a PC, and the danger of CRT monitors might be enough to have me get an LCD.  Originally I thought they were only higher resolutions like the one I'm using now, but this one is CGA all the way up to SVGA.  Are there any 25" ones available?

[pbj]

And you are located where....?

[rCadeGaming]

There's a lot more than nostalgia to a CRT.   I think most will disagree about the scanlines being ugly.  Along with a relatively low dot pitch on a 15kHz CRT, they assist in providing the right amount of natural smoothing needed for that "not too sharp but not too blurry" look needed for these low-res games that an LCD can't quite duplicate.  Not to mention that a 15kHz CRT has no input lag, unlike an LCD, so games actually play better on them too.

Just keep in mind that 90% of the games in MAME are 15kHz progressive (~240p), and an LCD can't display these properly without scaling.  If you can't find what you're looking for in terms of arcade monitors, don't overlook Dawgz Rule's suggestion.  It works just as well.

[Yeltsew7]

There's a lot more than nostalgia to a CRT.   I think most will disagree about the scanlines being ugly.  Along with a relatively low dot pitch on a 15kHz CRT, they assist in providing the right amount of natural smoothing needed for that "not too sharp but not too blurry" look needed for these low-res games that an LCD can't quite duplicate.  Not to mention that a 15kHz CRT has no input lag, unlike an LCD, so games actually play better on them too.

Just keep in mind that 90% of the games in MAME are 15kHz progressive (~240p), and an LCD can't display these properly without scaling.  If you can't find what you're looking for in terms of arcade monitors, don't overlook Dawgz Rule's suggestion.  It works just as well.

Aaagghhh everybody is saying different things, and I have never used an LCD monitor, so I only have other people's suggestions.  As Dawgz Rule said, i could jse a TV,  but how do I tell if it is 15kHz?  I have a 24" flat tube Phillips in perfect condition, but I have no idea how to hook it to my computer.

And you are located where....?

North Florida, Jacksonville area.

[Ken Layton]

Nieman still sells CRT monitors:

http://www.niemandisplays.com/

[Yeltsew7]

Nieman still sells CRT monitors:

http://www.niemandisplays.com/

On their tri mode monitors it looks like you have to switch it between each mode.  Is this the case for all tri mode monitors?

[ed12]

the switch is to switch between digital and analog

ed

[Yeltsew7]

the switch is to switch between digital and analog

ed

Are you thinking of the same thing as me?
it says on the technical specifications PDF http://www.niemandisplays.com/nvd%203m%20spec%20electrical%20spec%20sheet.pdf:

Notes:
SW501 Termination switch, set this for optimum picture.
This monitor has been pre-set by the factory in 24 Khz EGA Mode.
To use in 15Khz CGA Mode adjustments of size, position etc. will be required.
To use in 31 Khz VGA mode reset SW501 to 75 ohm position and adjust controls as
required.
Use the enclosed 15 pin adapter for CGA/EGA use.

I take it that the monitor needs to be adjusted for each mode.
It also says that I need to use the special D-Sub --> molex (I'm assuming) for CGA/EGA.  Does it need a different plug for VGA resolutions?  It seems like it's a pain that the other ones don't mention.  How do they work?

[mgb]

A 15 pin d-sub plug is the typical VGA plug.

Edit: I just noticed it says d sub to molex.

The tri syncs from Betson just take a standard VGA connection and are auto switching.

A regular standard resolution TV will be 15khz.
You can always go the route of a video card with s video out.

[mgb]

The only reason not to go LCD is nostalgia.  Some folks want to emulate the old-school arcade experience as closely as possible and demand CRT.  I, personally, don't care enough about authenticity to put up with the extra work and just use LCD.

I think scanlines are nasty artifacts that need to go away and just don't understand why some folks purposely add them back in.  Pin-cushioning drives me nuts.

You actually prefer the jagged odd ball crap picture of 15khz games on an LCD.

[Slippyblade]

The only reason not to go LCD is nostalgia.  Some folks want to emulate the old-school arcade experience as closely as possible and demand CRT.  I, personally, don't care enough about authenticity to put up with the extra work and just use LCD.

I think scanlines are nasty artifacts that need to go away and just don't understand why some folks purposely add them back in.  Pin-cushioning drives me nuts.

You actually prefer the jagged odd ball crap picture of 15khz games on an LCD.

I see that reference a lot, and I don't see how scanlines fix it.  Every time I see a side by side of LCD vs CRT I just don't see how the CRT looks better.  To me, hooking a SLG to an LCD is actually removing visual info.  I mean, you are scraping black stripes through the image.

It seems to me to be the same thing as audiophiles who swear that their old vinyl records somehow sound better than CD even through all the pop, crackle, and hiss.  I just don't get it.

[mgb]

Slippy,
  I can understand the vinyl vs cd argument (though there is some truth to vinly being warmer sounding) but these 15khz games were never meant to played on a high resolution LCD. There needs to be some sort of blur.
I love my games on my CRT though I can see where the hassle may not be worth it for some.
When I play mame or classic console emu on my LCD TV, I much prefer the scan lines and some blur otherwise its way blocky.

[Dawgz Rule]

You can always go the route of a video card with s video out.

You can but I would recommend spending the extra cash and use a transcoder.  The difference is amazing and the overall appearance is on par with that of an arcade monitor.

Slippy, couldn't disagree with you more.  I recently saw a LCD Pac Man at Dave & Busters and it simply looked to blocky as compared to a CRT.  Just didn't look right to me.

[Yeltsew7]

CRT: 3 (including me)
LCD: 1
Looks like I'll go with a CRT, even though it might be a pain to hook up and more expensive. I'd rather it look authentic, and that was my original reason why I didn't want to go for an LCD, they look blocky.  Actually, it is the same thing ad vinyl vs CD, I think vinyl has a warmer sound than CD.  (Don't get me wrong, I am fine with listening to CD's.)  And it seems that it is the same case with CRT, they are what the developers were using when they made the game, so that is what it will look best on. 
Do you think that http://www.twistedquarter.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=200_201&products_id=1630  or http://www.niemandisplays.com/nieman_video_displays_007.htm look better?  I am pretty inexperienced in this, so I would like the one that would be lees of a hassle to set up with my video card http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121645  with Soft-15KHz.  Also, still nobody has answered me about that the Nieman one says that you have to adjust it to go between CGA and EGA and VGA.

[rCadeGaming]

Some multi-sync arcade monitors require manual switching to change between 15/24/31kHz, while others are auto-switching.  I don't know about that particular one, but from your quote it sounds like it might actually be auto-switching.  I think its referring to switching to 75 ohm termination for 31kHz because they're expecting standard VGA signals at 0.7v, whereas they're expecting up to 5v from arcade PCB's for 15 and 24kHz.  In your case, you can just leave it on 75 ohm termination all the time because your video card will output 0.7v regardless of resolution.

An easy way to be sure that a TV is 15kHz is to try and display 480p on it.  If it doesn't work, then it's 15kHz.  90% of the games in MAME are ~240p, so it's best to have something that can display them properly.  Generally, if a CRT TV is capable of 480p or higher, it will upscale anything below that which is no good, so you want a "standard definition" TV, one that CAN'T display 480p. 

The best thing to shoot for is something new enough to have a component input, so you can use a proper transcoder, but old enough to be 15kHz.  That will be something from the early 2000's.  If you're in the US I recommend a Sony KV-27FS120, which is what I use (there are also similar models in 20, 24, 32", etc.).  They're dirt cheap, have a great service menu, and look fantastic once properly calibrated and hooked up to the right setup.

If your Phillips has a component input and passes the "480p test" you may be able to stick with that, but I'd also make sure you can get into the service menu, as using a TV with poorly adjusted geometry is not very good with arcade games.  The first thing you'll notice is there's too much overscan, which needs to be adjusted out.

To hook up a TV with a component input to a computer you need a good transcoder.  See here for recommendations:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1392896.html#msg1392896

Whether you use an Arcade Monitor or a TV you should be using GroovyMAME and CRT_Emudriver to get the full potential out of it.  This requires a compatible graphics card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Asus-ATI-Radeon-HD-4350-512MB-Video-Card-DVI-HDMI-SILENT-EAH4350-DI-512MD2-/251473094454?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:3160

You'll need that to output 15kHz resolutions the TV can display.  If your arcade monitor can display 31kHz/VGA, it will work with 640x480p from any graphics card, but that means you're scaling most games, which wastes the potential of the CRT.  31kHz should be reserved for the desktop, front-end, and the smaller selection of games that are designed for it.

[Yeltsew7]

Thanks rCadeGaming, that all makes sense to me.  The only thing is won't any frontend look awful at 240p?

[rCadeGaming]

It would, but you can run it in 480i on a 15kHz CRT (480p@60Hz = 31kHz, 480i@60Hz = 15kHz).

[Yeltsew7]

And Soft15KHz says it also supports 1024x768 interlaced under 15KHz on the wiki.  Can 15KHz TVs show that with CRT_emudriver?

[rCadeGaming]

Soft15kHz can't do anything that CRT_Emudriver can't, and CRT_Emu is a lot more user-friendly.  That being said, while either could output 768i, the vertical scan rate will be very low to keep horizontal around 15.7kHz, so some US TV's won't be able to display it.  An arcade monitor might be able to, but with either display type if it does work you'll have to adjust the vertical size by a lot and then your games will be off.  Unless you have an arcade monitor that remembers settings for individual resolutions, you're going to want to set your vertical size in 15kHz to display about 224-256 progressive lines, (448-512 interlaced).

[Yeltsew7]

Soft15kHz can't do anything that CRT_Emudriver can't, and CRT_Emu is a lot more user-friendly.  That being said while either could output 768i, the vertical scan rate will be very low to keep horizontal around 15.7kHz. , so some US TV's won't be able to display.  An arcade monitor might be able to, but with either display type if does work you'll have to adjust the vertical size by a lot and then your games will be off.  Unless you have an arcade monitor that remembers settings for individual resolutions, you're going to want to set your vertical size in 15kHz to display about 224-256 progressive lines, 448-512 interlaced.

Well the Phillips has a pretty crappy service menu, but I will check out those ones you mentioned earlier.

[astrog21]

You could look on the kerb or ask family/friends/neighbours. You should be able to find a second hand one easily. As for new CRT's, I doubt anyone makes them.

[rCadeGaming]

Where are you located?  Craigslist is usually your best bet.

[Yeltsew7]

Where are you located?  Craigslist is usually your best bet.

Jacksonville, Florida.  Our craigslist is the worst.

[Mr_Numbers]

Where are you located?  Craigslist is usually your best bet.

Jacksonville, Florida.  Our craigslist is the worst.

I'm close to Orlando and seen this listing last month:

http://orlando.craigslist.org/vgm/4315455747.html

I need a 25" (or two!) monitor and did email him and he said he had more than 5 and wants them all gone in one sale.  I'm not sure if he still has any but I highly doubt he found a buyer in this area for so many arcade monitors, some with serious screen burn it looks like.  If you do contact him and he still has them maybe we can meet in Orlando and split up what we want and get a really good deal.  Either way let me know if the listing helped.

 

[rCadeGaming]

I don't have much advice for searching for arcade monitors, but here's what I do to get TV's:

Most people selling TV's don't list them with useful info.  Just search for "Sony 27 TV" (or whatever other size you want) and check the box for only listings with pictures.  Then do some copy-paste and send a message for every listing with a picture that looks close, just saying "Hey, I'm interested, can you tell me the model number?  It's on the back."  Throw out a big net and see what you can pull in.  Don't pay over $50 for anything.  Some people give this stuff away.

[Dawgz Rule]

Another good search term is "trinitron" (27, 24, etc.).  As rCadeGaming said, then send an e-mail asking for the specific model.

[rCadeGaming]

Yeah, it's possible someone may list it as a Trinitron and not mention Sony.  You can also try "WEGA."  The KV-27FS120 is a WEGA.

[Yeltsew7]

Yeah, it's possible someone may list it as a Trinitron and not mention Sony.  You can also try "WEGA."  The KV-27FS120 is a WEGA.

http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/ele/4346619978.html
What about this?

And another guy said his was a KV-27S26, is that suitable?

[rCadeGaming]

A KD-27FS170, I have some experience with those.  It has a certain interesting behavior that can be exploited for MAME, but the picture quality is poor...

In addition to MAME, my TV is also set up for consoles (real hardware).  So, I have my service menu geometry adjusted to a happy medium for the common ~224p resolutions from older consoles.  I've found this is great for MAME as well.  There are a ton of games that run around 224p.  To fit a few more lines, adjust overscan, etc, you can get some vertical size adjustment using a combination of horizontal scan rate and total horizontal pixel adjustment.  To fit in something a lot taller, like 256p, there is an interesting behavior of the TV that can be exploited.  If you increase the total lines (total, not active) to over 288 in progressive the picture will snap to a much smaller size, and a much larger resolution will fit on-screen.  If you find this value in ArcadeOSD, you'll literally see a huge change in size as you cross over it.  256p games now fit very well. 

For example, I can switch between Street Fighter II (224p) and R-Type (256p) with no service menu adjustments, and have the exact amount of overscan I want in both.  This works the same with interlaced resolutions (the boundary value is the same amount of lines per field, or double that amount per frame), and I have my desktop running in 704@512i, to make Windows a little more manageable.  So my tip is to learn to how use these two different "pictures sizes" above and below this total horizontal line value.  Optimize the smaller picture size for 224p, and the larger size for 256p. 

A real console, like a SNES or Genesis will provide a good reference for a standard "224p picture size" to shoot for when adjusting the service menu.  I also use a PS3 to output test patterns in NTSC standard 480i.  Using a PC isn't the best point of reference to begin with because your modelines can vary all over the place.

Yes, I've heard about this before, and it's something that should be considered. I wonder if that boundary total lines value is constant or depends on some other variable like vfreq or something. If it's constant, then it would be quite easy to model it by doing two separate ranges as mikecrj is doing. I believe this was designed to make these TVs autoadustable when switching between PAL/NTSC frames.

The NTSC/PAL switching theory makes perfect sense.  I think the boundary of 288 lines is constant, as I've used it with a few different resolutions of varying vertical scan rate.

I went back to a KV-27FS120 and I was not able to replicate this boundary value behavior.  I double checked, and it works consistently with both KD-27FS170's I have, but I could NOT get it working with either of my KV-27FS120's... It just seems to start losing sync around 285 lines regardless of h and v scan rates, and from what I can see through the rolling image, the size change doesn't seem to happen at 288.  The strange thing is that both models are supposed to be chassis BA-6 according to the service manual, so I feel like there must be something I'm missing.

EDIT:  I just noticed that the service manuals for these models list both as chassis type BA-6, but they also have more specific chassis numbers which are different.

KV-27FS120 - Chassis no. SCC-S61N-A
KD-27FS120 - Chassis no. SCC-S61Y-A

So, it is in fact a different model of chassis.

I'm going to try driving a KV-27FS120 tube with a KD-27FS120 chassis (SCC-S61Y-A).

Don't bother with the KD-27FS170 I mentioned above.  The size switching at 288 total lines is nice, but the picture quality is very poor.  Geometry is unstable across different modelines, and focus is awful anywhere except the center of the screen.  I had planned on trying to connect its chassis to a KV27FS-120 tube to get the best of both worlds (KD model has size switching, KV has excellent picture quality).  Upon taking it apart, I found that they actually use the same model of tube, so switching the chassis between them is no help.  The poor picture quality seems to come from the design of the chassis itself.  The two models do also have slightly different driver boards, deflection yokes, and flybacks, so I also tried switching these around in various combinations (using the KV driver board and flyback with the KV chassis took a good deal of hacking things up), but couldn't get satisfactory results.

Eventually, I spent some time looking over all the games I consider worth playing in MAME to get some perspective.  A few hundred if you really stretch the definition of "worth playing."  What I found is that among the 15kHz games (which are the great majority), anything over 240p is actually pretty rare.  224p is by far the most common, with 240p in a distant second, and a few odd resolutions in between 224-240 lines being third.  There's not a lot that's notable over 240 lines, except the Irem m72.c games (R-Type I and II, Ninja Spirit, Image Fight, X-Multiply, all 256p), and various Midway hardware games (NBA Jam/TE/Hangtime, MK I-III if you're into that, all 253p).  There are in fact only a handful of games over 240 lines per field that I'd consider worth playing, maybe a dozen, which is not significant among hundreds of others.  So, the size switching isn't that important, as it's rarely needed, and I can make some compromises with that small handful of games.

In my case I'm also using consoles, which are never more than 240 lines per field (480i is still 240 lines per field, so it's the same vertical size as 240p).  I'm also building a separate cab with a vertical screen for vertical games.  So I'll never have to deal with running vertical games on a horizontal monitor (yoko), like Jadder and some other people here are trying to pull off.

Another consideration is that KD27-FS170's are pretty rare, whereas KV-27FS120's are very common.

Long story short, I decided to stick with the KV27FS-120.

All this being said, I'll certainly be hanging on to my KD-27FS170's to scavenge the tubes out of, since they use the same ones as my KV-27FS120's.  That'll give me two more extra tubes in my stockpile to help keep my cabinets running for the foreseeable future.

[rCadeGaming]

No component input on the KV-27S26

[Yeltsew7]

I'll look some more for a KV-27FS120 or a KV-24FS120

[Yeltsew7]

Earlier you said that to find if a TV is 15KHz you play 480p through it and if there is a picture, it is not 15KHz.  I have a component caple for my GameCube. When I start up a game with it it asks, "Do you want to use progressive scan mode? Yes/No".  If I choose yes will it use 480p? Or would it be *something else*p?  And if I pick no it will be 480i?

If I get a picture at 480p, that means that my TV isn't suitable for use as an arcade monitor, right?  I'll have to check it out when I get home.  It works fine with my NES though, so I think it supports some kind 252x240, which I believe was the standard resolution for that.  If that means anything to you.  As I said before, I don't know much about CRT monitors.

[Mr_Numbers]

Have you asked at Arcadeflorida.com?  I was just glancing around and seen a few monitors for sale and it would probably be the best people to ask if someone local has something to sell you for a reasonable price.

[rCadeGaming]

Yes, the Gamecube outputs 480p in "progressive scan," and 480i otherwise.  When you switch to it, you should see either a bunch of garbage, rolling screen, or nothing at all, assuming the display is 15kHz only.

NES is 256x224p, same as most SNES games.  TV's that support 480p will stay be able to display it, but it usually won't be that native resolution anymore, it will be scaled by the TV.  If you can still see distinct scanlines exactly between each line of graphics, you can be sure it's actually displaying the native res, which will be the case with a 15kHz-capable display.  However, if you can't see the scanlines, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not displaying native res.  On some older display the dot pitch is just too coarse to leave that space in between lines (picture is clear enough).  If the dot pitch is very fine, you will still be able to see faint scanlines even if it has been scaled up, there will just be twice as many of them and they won't all be in the right places.  After you've become familiar with proper scanlines it becomes very obvious what to look for, but if not the 480p test is much simpler to interpret.

[Yeltsew7]

And the 480p won't kill the TV?  If I remember correctly there are some pretty distinct scanlines on the Phillips.  But that might just be because I sit two feet away from it on the floor.

[rCadeGaming]

It has never hurt any of the Sony's I've worked on, and I've given them all kinds of signals they couldn't sync to.  TV's should have some kind of protection so a consumer can't break it by connecting a 480p signal or some king of 50Hz PAL signal or something.  Arcade monitors lack this protection sometimes.  From what I've heard, some monitor will just fail to sync up like a TV, but can actually be actually be damaged.  Just to be safe, *don't try the 480p test on arcades monitors.*

[Yeltsew7]

Like this?

[rCadeGaming]

Picture of the 480p test?  Looks like garbage to me!   It passes.  How does NES look?

[chopperthedog]

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=305943
Was very happy with the last 2 I got from this seller and just ordered a couple more.


good day.

[Yeltsew7]

Picture of the 480p test?  Looks like garbage to me!   It passes.  How does NES look?

The NES is actually a clone system, and just to clarify it is hooked up with RCA cables.
Here are some pictures I took: http://imgur.com/a/aBBJ8
And just in case here is a Model 2 Genesis, again hooked up with RCA cables.
http://imgur.com/a/PoDIn

[rCadeGaming]

The composite signal makes it slightly less clear, but it doesn't change the resolution coming from an old system.  You can see it's proper 224p from both shots.  It's especially clear in the text close-ups.

[Yeltsew7]

Well I guess that means I'm all set.  This TV is the perfect size, it shows the right resolutions, and it has the right hookups.  Thanks for all your help, I never expected for this thread to go to 2 pages.
One more question and then I think I can stop bumping. If I am using CRT_emudriver, and I want to play a game that is 640x480, like Tekken, will it show at 480i?

[rCadeGaming]

No problem.

Did you decide on a transcoder?  How about the service menu on that TV, can you get into it?  You'll find the overscan will be a lot more noticeable once you start displaying arcade games.  Unlike console games, which were designed with the excessive overscan commonly found on TV's in mind, many arcade games are designed to make full use of every inch of the screen.  You'll notice things like health bars and score displays getting cut off.

Also, I was not intending to steer you away from arcade monitors.  Tons of members here have had great success with them.  They are, after all, the originally intended hardware.  I just had more to share about the options using TV's because that's where my knowledge lies.

[rCadeGaming]

Ah, and yes, with GroovyMAME/CRT_Emudriver you can tell it to use 480i for anything that won't work in native resolution.

You should head over to the GroovyMAME section to start researching that stuff.

[Yeltsew7]

I think I will use the TV for now and save up for a tri-sync CRT.

[Zebra]

I have a Billabs BL25C90t tri-sync arcade monitor. It is one of 4 arcade monitors that I have seen that is still available new. Mine is 24.8" autosync model that does CGA, EGA and VGA automatically. I got it new for $435 and they are still available. I don't know this for a fact but I think it is the same as the Neiman 24.8" autosync monitors. It looks the same in the pics and specs.

The crt is flat and it is an A tube (just like old crt tv's) with a dot pitch of around 0.8mm so you get an authentic looking image instead of one with jagged edges like you see on broadcast monitors with fine dot pitches. My Ikegami broadcast monitor has a pitch of .31mm so the black spaces between scanlines are a little too thick for my taste.

The Billabs has a 15 pin d-sub connector and a 6 pin molex connector. The latter is meant for jamma pcb's that output 5volt rgb signals. Using my arcade vga, I don't get any image at all on the 6 pin molex without using a vga amp which I got from ultimarc. The monitor accepts cga, ega and vga through the 15 pin d-sub so, in theory, that is all I should use with my arcade vga but IMO cga games look better through the 6 pin molex (plus the amp).

With the amp, the image looks brighter with more contrast and as a result, graphics look like the real pcb. When I use the lower voltage gpu through the d-sub, the graphics look almost too clear and defined. The image blooms less so scanlines look a little too prominent and jagged edges become visible. Using brightness and contrast adjustments in mame can help a little but it is not the same as a real 5 volt signal.

The problem I have with using the 6 pin molex connection is that the image rolls every time I switch resolutions (even if both resolutions are in the cga range). This might be fine if it was hooked up to a single pcb but a rolling image every time I change a game in mame is too annoying to live with. I don't have this issue when using the vga connection.

If anyone has this or a similar spec multi-sync arcade monitor, I would be interested to know if you have problems with keeping sync when using an arcade vga / video amp combo with composite sync?

I suspect that, while the monitor can handle composite or separate sync, the simple combiner circuit on the video amp does not result in a sufficiently clean sync to achieve a stable image. I had problems with getting composite sync from my arcade vga when I used my old broadcast monitor and had to buy an extron rgb interface to make it work.

I wanted to try the video amp with the 15 pin d-sub connector but I am worried that I might blow something on the monitor. Does anyone know if this will work or not?

Btw, on using a crt tv with an arcade vga or soft 15khz, I used mine with a 27" Sony trinitron for a while. I used a jrok encoder to change the rgb output to either s-video or component. Both worked fairly well. There were a few issues though. A number of Sony Trinitrons and wega models will not sync to 54hz for games like mortal kombat or R-type. The image was blurry at the edges on my 1997 trinitron (but not on my 2003 one). The aperture grille used on Sony Trinitrons does not look the same as the shadow masks used on most arcade monitors. The image was great on the Sony but the scanlines were more prominent than on an arcade monitor. It was very difficult to get a clean enough sync for a stable image without an rgb interface and, properly grounding the jrok board required steps that weren't in the instructions.

On the plus side, a late model (15khz only) sony crt with component  input is very close in image quality to an rgb monitor. The 2 formats are very similar. If you can find a decent shadow mask tv with component (and with a curved screen) it is a good choice for an arcade monitor. The image controls in a Sony Trinitron's service menu are superior to anything I have on my analogue arcade monitor.

[rCadeGaming]

Thanks for the detailed comparison.  I have been looking for an account like that for a while.

With the amp, the image looks brighter with more contrast and as a result, graphics look like the real pcb. When I use the lower voltage gpu through the d-sub, the graphics look almost too clear and defined. The image blooms less so scanlines look a little too prominent and jagged edges become visible. Using brightness and contrast adjustments in mame can help a little but it is not the same as a real 5 volt signal.

Can't you get this look through the d-sub input by adjusting the monitor's brightness, contrast, and color drive settings?

I wanted to try the video amp with the 15 pin d-sub connector but I am worried that I might blow something on the monitor. Does anyone know if this will work or not?

That input is looking for ~0.75Vpp video.  It may not like 5V.  Not really worth trying, as even if you don't damage anything, it's not likely to look too good.

A number of Sony Trinitrons and wega models will not sync to 54hz for games like mortal kombat or R-type.

Unfortunately yes, these have to be compromised.  There are only a handful of games in MAME with such low refresh rates that I would consider worth playing, but yeah certain Irem and Midway games are among them.  This and the horizontal bowing due to the flat tube are my only issues with my Trinitron.

The image controls in a Sony Trinitron's service menu are superior to anything I have on my analogue arcade monitor.

Do you have any geometry problems with your arcade monitor that you'd need better controls to correct?

[Zebra]

Hi RcadeGaming you can't get the same look using the 15 pin d-sub input as you get with a 4 volt signal through the molex connectors. I have tried adjusting the contrast and brightness on the monitor and also using the mame adjustments. The result just looks different. My arcade monitor needs the brightness and contrast at close to max when using the D-sub port so that probably doesn't help. When using the molex, contrast and brightness pots are both at less than 50% before the image becomes super bright.

Other than the smoother edges you get from the higher voltage signal, it seems to need the extra volts to get accurate colors. In Street fighter 2, Ryu's clothes look almost beige in most mame screenshots I have seen but they are bright white in most pics of the game running from a real PCB. No matter how hard I have tried, I have never been able to get authentic colors from mame without the video amp. I was able to get fairly close by increasing the blue and reducing the green and red gamma on my monitor but not close enough for my taste.

In addition to my arcade monitor, I have a 27" Sony Trinitron and a 20" Ikegami broadcast monitor. The Ikegami is top of the line as it was an $18,000 grade I master monitor in it's day. It has inline self converging guns and auto color calibration so it's fair to say that it has fairly accurate color. The beige / yellow tint that you get from mame games is most evident on the ikegami and is only partially compensated for by adjusting the color balance pots.

The weird exception with the 4volt signal is Neo Geo games which just ghost when you increase the contrast. They look better with a 1 volt signal and some contrast / gamma changes in mame.

Mame has some decent image adjustments in HLSL settings. It is a shame they aren't available with the shaders.

I don't have any noticable geometry problems on my arcade monitor. I was just saying that the digital service menu on my Sony Trinitron has far more options for tweaking the image. In particular, I like how you can adjust the screen height in the center, seperatly from the height at the top and bottom of the screen. This lets you compensate for the squashed graphics you get on some games in mame due to not being able to get the exact native resolution. The closest resolution to street fighter 2's 384 x 224 with my arcade VGA is 392 x 240 which makes Ryu look fat. The Sony menu allows that to be corrected without cutting off the top and bottom of the screen.

Still, not being able to play mortal kombat and R-type at native resolutions on the Trinitron was annoying and most of the ones I have seen look blurry at the edges which made me angry. The image on my broadcast monitor was too sharp for my taste with thick black scanlines and jagged edges. The image on my arcade monitor was just right (well it will be eventually). Also, being able to play Sega Rally and Daytona without interlacing is nice.

[rCadeGaming]

Sounds like you need a custom amp circuit to adjust things around 0.75Vpp to get the d-sub input looking like other one.

[rCadeGaming]

Also, I appreciate how discerning you are.  I think someone like you ought to ditch the ArcadeVGA in favor of CRT_Emudriver.

[Zebra]

I did eventually ditch the arcadeVGA. I now use a Radeon 4890 with CRT emu and soft 15khz for custom modelines. I also ditched windows 7 and got XP. I'm using a Xeon E3 for my mame machine. The Xeon chips are like the regular ones except no onboard video and they run cooler if you leave them on 24/7.

I am much happier being able to play every game at exactly the right refresh rate and resolution. I'm using make plus 158 which gives you native res and refresh rates from a handful of modelines (like groovy make but with better options and more user friendly).

Here is a pic of Samurai Showdown at 224p

http://postimg.org/image/c7i05wtxf/

Here is street fighter 2 at 384 x 224

http://postimg.org/image/g691wrocj/

I now spend more time playing than adjusting settings.

Btw, no adapter would be needed to convert the signal down to .7v. That is what PC graphics cards put out natively. The issue is that many arcade monitors were set up to be used with the higher voltage signals from jamma pcb's. Lower voltage signals look less bright and have lower contrast. This can be adjusted with pots on the motherboard but the result doesn't have the same glow and bloom as the high voltage one.

The video amp outputs a signal on bare wires so it is easy to use with the moles connector. You would need another adapter or breakout board to feed a high voltage signal into the d-sub port so there is no point. I use my d-sub port for PS3 games which I play at 480p with an hdmi to VGA adapter.