Best Picture Quality from an Old 27" Panasonic TV?

[MeatballB]

I built a cabinet about 5 years agoand have been pretty happy with it, but I'm starting to think that I can get better quality out of the TV I'm using.  I've got an old Panasonic 27" CT-27G13W television I've been using primarily because I had it, and it would turn itself on/off with a smart power strip. 

The only connections on the back of the TV is a Coax in and composite RCA's for Video,L/R Audio.  Right now I've been pushing the video from the machine out an old Geforce 6600 GT S-Video connection through a S-Video to Composite splitter and then the single RCA cable for the video signal up to the TV's video in RCA.  (I'm not worried about audio, have separate speakers for that.

I really don't want to splurge for a true arcade monitor and just wondering if there's any possibility that I could get a better picture through the Panasonic.  Anyone have any ideas?

[adder]

if your tv doesnt have a scart socket on the back (which would allow you do use rgb), then it sounds like the best image quality you have available is composite, which unfortunately isn't very good quality as you have already noticed

in which case, your only option is to use different tv (which has rgb scart), or a real arcade monitor

[MeatballB]

Well, I might just see if I can dig up a component TV.  I do have an old Radeon X300 video card lying around that I _think_ might have the old TV-Out.  The TV-Out has 7 pins.  Of course, I don't know exactly what the card is, so I can't dig up any specs.  Label on the back of the card simply says "Radeon X300 - 128MB DDR With DVI TV PCI-Express C3D 3003"  Front of the PCB has P/N 109-A33400-10.

I'll have to hit up Craigslist and some local tag sales to see if I can find a good Component TV to match with it.

Quick Edit: I found the actual card online and it's a Connect 3D Radeon X300 this is definitely the card/PCB I have.  The only thing I'm not sure of is the picture shows it coming with a simple S-Video cable, so I'm not sure if I have S-Video or Component out.

[adder]

sorry i forgot about some crt tv's allowing component input
i havnt come across any myself, i generally only seem to find standard rgb scart tvs here where i am, i havnt come across any with svideo input either (but of course they do exist)
video cards with svideo out ports (but have more than 4 pins).. as far as i know there isnt a standard so you have to find out how the manufacturer of the card has decided to allocate the pins (but i think generally the standard 4pin svideo layout remains the same.. im no expert in these matters though so better to dig deeper on the subject rather than take my word for it)

good starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video

taken from that link:
"Non-standard 7-pin mini-DIN connectors (known as "7P") are used in some computer equipment (PCs). A 7-pin socket accepts and is pin compatible with a standard 4-pin S-Video plug. The three extra sockets may be used to supply composite (CVBS), an RGB or YPbPr video signal, or an I²C interface. The pin out usage varies between manufacturers. In some implementations, the remaining pin needs to be grounded to enable the composite output or disable the S-Video output.
Some Dell laptops have a digital audio output in a 7-pin socket."

so ideally you would want to find the manual for your video card to see how the 7pins have been allocated.. (unless ati always allocate 7pin svideo in the same way, in which case should make things easier...)

[MeatballB]

Unfortunately, I have no idea where the manual is, and to be honest, I don't even remember when I got the card.  It came out nearly 10 years ago.  Assuming it is 'TV-Out' and I can run component to a component TV, I'll go from there and see if I can get better video.

[MonMotha]

FYI for our European friends: SCART is basically unheard of in the US - it's certainly far from "standard".  Component YPbPr input was fairly common on late model CRTs from the early 2000s as well as higher end sets in the mid- to late-90s.  "EDTV" models supporting progressive scan almost always have it since you can't run 480p over composite or S-Video (at least not in any standard way), though some of these TVs have digital scalers that will upscale everything, often with some lag.

Done right, component YPbPr is essentially identical to RGB as it's just some matrix math to convert between the two.  Getting the output/conversion right and finding a TV that doesn't mash the hell out of it (color- or geometry-wise) is left as an exercise to the reader.

[adder]

oops sorry, i prob should know that by now
im in uk so yep every tv here has at least one scart socket on the rear

meatballb: note that if using svideo port to output your video you might be limited to interlace modes only (i had that problem with a laptop i was using, mind you it was just poor onboard intel video i was forced to use). dont know if thats something which bothers you or not (some people are ok with interlace, others dont like the flickering/lack of scanlines etc)

[MeatballB]

Ahh, no worries.  I've heard of SCART, but know it didn't directly apply to me.  Just trying to get the best possible picture out of any gear I have without having to spend a lot of money.  While I really enjoy my cabinet, I just can't justify spending hundreds of dollars more on it at this point for the amount of use it gets.

[MeatballB]

Heh, the more I look, the more I go in circles.  It looks like the original 6600GT I was using does have TV-Out to Component capability.  I'm going to rebuild my box using that. 

Thanks for all the help so far!

[ahofle]

Have you checked out this thread?  I believe rcadeGaming mentioned the possibility of getting a 15khz signal through the composite input with a VGA converter.  I'm really curious about it.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.0.html

[MeatballB]

Excellent, thanks!  Already started looking through the thread and it looks great.

[rCadeGaming]

Ahofle, thanks for the mention.  Yes, reading through that thread will be a help.  Bear in mind that it's a little old though, so there is a lot of talk about Soft15kHz.  Notice the updates in the second post (which need to be updated again at this point). 

The technical discussion there is still valid, but just bear in mind now that CRT_Emudriver is a much better option than Soft15kHz, and everyone with a CRT ought to be using GroovyMAME at this point.

You're not likely to have success with "TV-out" from a video card, regardless of format.  You're not getting the full benefit of a CRT without running native resolutions, and no one has yet found a card that's capable of doing this through the TV-out port.  If you can confirm that you've found a card that can do so that would be interesting, but you'll most likely need to use the normal VGA out from a CRT_Emudriver-compatible card and run that through a VGA to component transcoder.

See my recent posts near the end of the thread about the current availability of CRT_Emudriver-compatible video cards and VGA to component transcoders.

As for a TV, if you want to run native resolutions you'll need something with a component input.  Be careful though, you need something that's 15kHz-only, meaning something that can NOT display 480p or higher.  Otherwise, it won't be able to display native arcade resolutions from MAME, 90% of which are around 240p, it will just upscale them to 480p or more before displaying them.  In the US, a Sony KV-27FS120 is a good bet.  They have a great picture for MAME, and can commonly be found in most areas on Craigslist for very little money.  (I'm assuming you want to stick with a 27" tube.  For others reading this, there are also 20" and 24" sets in the KV line.)

[MeatballB]

Thanks!  I'm actually in the process of chasing down one of those Sony TV's through craigslist.  I've been reading through your post and will jump to the end to see the more recent info.  Looking at the CRT Emudriver/cards, I actually have a PCI express Radeon x300 I can use which might save me some trouble.  Also looks like that EmuDriver is WinXP only, is that correct?

[rCadeGaming]

Looking at the CRT Emudriver/cards, I actually have a PCI express Radeon x300 I can use which might save me some trouble.

Ah, right.  I did see that, but you were talking about using the TV-out.  Although it's a long shot, it is worth checking if you can get that component output working with CRT_Emudriver for native resolutions.  Once you get a good 15kHz CRT, it will be clear whether you're getting native res or not.  If it's working correctly, natural scanlines will be clearly visible with ~240p games.  If the card is scaling on the TV-out port, the scanlines will be gone. 

If you can actually get it working, a lot of people will be interested, as it will save the expense of a transcoder.  If not, you'll just have to use the normal VGA out with an external transcoder.  Either way, yeah, that should be a great card for CRT_Emudriver.  Is it PCIe?

Also looks like that EmuDriver is WinXP only, is that correct?

Yes.  For now...

https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135517.msg1400194.html#msg1400194

[MeatballB]

If you can actually get it working, a lot of people will be interested, as it will save the expense of a transcoder.  If not, you'll just have to use the normal VGA out with an external transcoder.  Either way, yeah, that should be a great card for CRT_Emudriver.  Is it PCIe?

Yeah, but I don't think the x300 actually has a TV-Out, I think it's just a 7 pin S-Video.  The Geforce card had TV Out on it, but that won't work with CRT_Emudriver   So, I'm going to retrench.  I have an old Dell Optiplex 745 Desktop with a Core 2 Duo e6600 (2.4 Ghz) and 4 GB of RAM that I can use the x300 with.  Of course it's a low profile case, and the x300 card won't fit, but I'll mod the case to make it work.  I had originally hoped to pull that motherboard out, but you know Dell.  The backplate is soldered onto the board underneath the PCI express slot, so there's no way to fit it into a regular case.

I ordered the TC1500 Transcoder and have a few "Sony Trinitron 27"" TV's I'm chasing down on Craigslist within an hour of me.

Really appreciate all the help!

[rCadeGaming]

S-Video out from a graphics card is TV out.  It may also output composite and component from that port using adapter dongles, depending on the drivers and the encoder/transcoder hardware on the card.  S-video only uses four pins: luma, luma ground, chroma, and chroma ground.  The other three pins may be used for composite video, blue difference, and red difference.  Luma, blue difference, and red difference make YPbPr component.

Calamity has said that a Core 2 Duo is the bare minimum for running GroovyMAME.  You might want to consider an upgrade.  Either way, you shouldn't need a case inside of a cab.

Good luck with the TV's.  A 15kHz Trinitron running off of CRT_Emudriver makes a nice cab.

[MeatballB]

Calamity has said that a Core 2 Duo is the bare minimum for running GroovyMAME.  You might want to consider an upgrade.  Either way, you shouldn't need a case inside of a cab.

Any suggestions?  Willing to throw a few bucks at a new machine if need be.

[rCadeGaming]

An Intel processor is a must for MAME, and multiple cores help, especially with GroovyMAME.  ASUS motherboards are a good bet.  See this thread about sound cards:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135230.0.html

You might be able to build a nice system around an Ivy Bridge cpu on a buget.  If you want to get spendy, go with a Haswell.  It's all about finding the right point on the price-value curve.  If you want more specifics, there are more knowledgeable members here.  Try the GroovyMAME thread.

[MeatballB]

I'll look into some new gear.  So, is a sound card a must?  I was thinking of using onboard, but I do have an Audigy 2 I can use.

[rCadeGaming]

Read that thread, you'll see.

[MeatballB]

Hey rCade, any idea if a KV-27FS13 would do the trick for the monitor?  Looks almost exactly the same as the 120 but the speakers are not on the sides, but small ovals on the bottom.   Appears to have Components on the back, but not sure how to determine if it's 15kHz only.  I found a service manual, but it doesn't list it.  Did find a page on wiki that says it's 480i with 'manual 16:9' enhancement as opposed to the 120 that has auto.

Found one on Craigslist around the corner for $25.

[rCadeGaming]

Looks good.  Here is the service menu with more details:

http://elektrotanya.com/sony_kv-27fs13_27fs17_32fs13_32fs17_34fs13c_34fs17_sm.pdf/download.html

EDIT:  Derp.  You already found it  .  Oh well, I'll leave the link for others.

It has one component input.  It doesn't say specifically that it's a 15kHz set in the service manual, but I think it was assumed in that time period, ~2001, that a TV was "standard definition" unless stated otherwise. 

It's pretty safe to say that model is 15kHz only, since it predates mine.  In any case, whenever you want to test if a CRT is 15khz only, feed it 480p.  If it shows a bunch of out of sync garbage, it's 15kHz only.  If it doesn't, it's not, and it's not likely to able to display 15kHz signals without scaling.

Hold on to that service manual.  You'll need it to get into the service menu to calibrate color and geometry.

[MeatballB]

Has anyone pulled any of these old Toshiba's out of their cases?  Got the 27FS13 today and looks like it'll work great, but it's about 1.5" too wide for my cabinet (Ultimate Arcade II), so I may need to pull it out of the case. 

[rCadeGaming]

Toshiba?  Isn't it a Sony?

Anyhow, yeah you need to decase a TV for the best quality installation.  Try laying it on its face and removing all the phillips head screws you can see on the back.  Read up on discharging tubes first.

[MeatballB]

Sorry...Sony, yes.  Have it sitting next to a Toshiba TV, so I had Toshiba on the mind.