Test: revive old sealed lead acid batteries.

[ed12]

even under isolation and a gfi..i tend to make sure i take into the fact
u can get your ass kicked

what u are doing is what of us do
re-charging

if ppl want to get nitty gritty about it
look at how many fire's have happened  with lap top batts seeting them-self on fire,
look a the heat a wall wart will give off..wow is it hot

i myself when i do what u are doing just go 1 step futher
and have fresh air comming in through my shop system..and turn on my e-vac system >fume extrackter<,then do the exact same steps u have done..meter monitor
and watch..
 and yes when i do de-lime on a coffee machine boiler
guess what we use 60% acid nasty acid and water

ed

[ark_ader]

Even 3 volts can kill in the right circumstances, hence my original post about children and batteries, not completely stupid adults that should know better and batteries. 

[lilshawn]

According to the Clark County coroner’s office, Julian died of internal bleeding with lacerations in his esophagus, gastric irritation and a collapsed lung

(SIC) the result of swallowing a button cell battery.

WUT?! how do you go from freaking out about recharging a battery.... to dying from being electrocuted... to swallowing them? what does volts (which wasn't actually mentioned in the article anywhere) have to do with ANYTHING in the link you posted???

if we hop on this train of thought, don't eat food anymore because you can choke on something and don't drink any water because you might drown. Don't use your computer anymore cause one of those dangerous batteries are powering the CMOS. Lord help you if you are using a laptop right now. You know how easily that though could just catch on fire right on your lap and you could burn to death?

You have to apply logic not just practice it.

Yeah, nothing is safe.  You can't walk through the woods without the risk of being eaten by a bear. You can't even walk down the sidewalk without running the risk of getting splattered by a vehicle. But you know what, everybody takes that risk when they do it. Just the same as we take the risk of falling off a cliff when we mountain climb, we take a risk when we recharge a battery. (or in your example, eat them.)

But really... as tragic as it is, this is STILL a case of stupid people. Children know no better and it is up to adults to do that job for them. This is why childrens toys have screws holding the battery doors shut, and should the supervisors of said children fail to utilize the safety features, things like this happen.

[ark_ader]

According to the Clark County coroner’s office, Julian died of internal bleeding with lacerations in his esophagus, gastric irritation and a collapsed lung

(SIC) the result of swallowing a button cell battery.

WUT?! how do you go from freaking out about recharging a battery.... to dying from being electrocuted... to swallowing them? what does volts (which wasn't actually mentioned in the article anywhere) have to do with ANYTHING in the link you posted???

if we hop on this train of thought, don't eat food anymore because you can choke on something and don't drink any water because you might drown. Don't use your computer anymore cause one of those dangerous batteries are powering the CMOS. Lord help you if you are using a laptop right now. You know how easily that though could just catch on fire right on your lap and you could burn to death?

You have to apply logic not just practice it.

Yeah, nothing is safe.  You can't walk through the woods without the risk of being eaten by a bear. You can't even walk down the sidewalk without running the risk of getting splattered by a vehicle. But you know what, everybody takes that risk when they do it. Just the same as we take the risk of falling off a cliff when we mountain climb, we take a risk when we recharge a battery. (or in your example, eat them.)

But really... as tragic as it is, this is STILL a case of stupid people. Children know no better and it is up to adults to do that job for them. This is why childrens toys have screws holding the battery doors shut, and should the supervisors of said children fail to utilize the safety features, things like this happen.

Nice try on the misdirection but yet again you fail to make the simple connection.  Kids + Batteries = Unsafe.  Here you are defending your original post about opening up dead rechargeable batteries, without thinking about the possible worst case scenarios.  Well you did edit it after I gave you the push.  We must keep that in mind.

Keep trying to dig yourself out!  Let me know when you reach China!

[lilshawn]

okay.

[ed12]

ok some how this thread has come un-gulged
from its orignal intent,,re- rebuilding acid batterys
to working with stupid ppl

if this is the real case..then maybe a proff of age should be shown to saint..before u are alowed to read or post ??
eh have at er
this should keep the childern out and in there own sandbox

but hey well we are at it ban gun's of any kind so some stupid adult wont leave it laying around so some stupid 12 year old can take it to school to settle a score
and well we are at it ban cars..makes sense to me then all i got to look to the odd
train trying to wack me >when i am in the wrong again<..

no get your head out of your ass and think.,please
the kid choked to death..the bat blew up inside of him..hence realesing the nasty stuff..

let me ask u a question..where in the hell did he get it from in the first place

before u make a post of nasty problem.like that
look at all of facts..and NOT WHAT FOX NEWS OR MSN REPORTS..

ed

[lilshawn]

Well you did edit it after I gave you the push.

no, i didn't actually, i edited the post to add the photo gallery (that you aren't allowed to look at because it depicts acts that are unsafe. (NSFA - Not Safe For ark_ader))

the post always had a safety disclaimer, much as all my posts where i explain something that is remotely hazardous to life, limb, or equipment.

[SavannahLion]

I'm reasonably sure that if a two year old can actually successfully:

• start a PC
• log into said PC
• Launch a browser
• move the mouse and/or hit ALT+D
• type in forum.arcadecontrols.com using their Califone Kids Keyboard
• navigate to the correct thread
• read the lilshawn's post
• comprehend what was said in that post

If a two year old can do all that, the parents have more important things to worry about that the kid playing with SLABs or eating button cell batteries.

That aside, anyone interested in reading a write up on my dad's old table saw? No safety guards, no shields, no brakes and the ---smurf--- dims the lights when it starts.

Here's a laundry list of what it has.
It has what looks like doorknobs for the adjustments.
There is a two socket, single light switch box. Yes a table saw that supports accessories. Yes, you control the saw with the light switch.
The saw motor and blade are mounted on a "see-saw" arrangement. Meaning, no theoretical limit to blade size.
Angle iron frame.
No shield around the exposed belt.

The lack of safety measures gave the local woodworkers group fits, I figure it should give about half the forum members here convulsions 

[Monkeyvoodoo]

I'm reasonably sure that if a two year old can actually successfully:

• start a PC
• log into said PC
• Launch a browser
• move the mouse and/or hit ALT+D
• type in forum.arcadecontrols.com using their Califone Kids Keyboard
• navigate to the correct thread
• read the lilshawn's post
• comprehend what was said in that post

If a two year old can do all that, the parents have more important things to worry about that the kid playing with SLABs or eating button cell batteries.

That aside, anyone interested in reading a write up on my dad's old table saw? No safety guards, no shields, no brakes and the ---smurf--- dims the lights when it starts.

Here's a laundry list of what it has.
It has what looks like doorknobs for the adjustments.
There is a two socket, single light switch box. Yes a table saw that supports accessories. Yes, you control the saw with the light switch.
The saw motor and blade are mounted on a "see-saw" arrangement. Meaning, no theoretical limit to blade size.
Angle iron frame.
No shield around the exposed belt.

The lack of safety measures gave the local woodworkers group fits, I figure it should give about half the forum members here convulsions 

Oh my...

That takes me back to my childhood. Things weren't designed to be completely safe, the operator had know what he was doing (if they didn't they learned fast) and children were instructed by their own parents to not touch it.

I remember taking wood shop in middle school (grade 6-8) and the teacher was old faso boned to say the least. He demonstrated why we shouldn't put any part of our body by the exhaust of the soldering iron's furnace. I still remember his knuckle hair vaporizing and can still see the tiny embers. And this was two feet above the exhaust.
That said this was the same class I took my fingertip off with the belt sander. I learned to be complete aware of what I'm doing when working on a dangerous machine. And take appropriate safety measures. Comes in handy now when handling 57mm explosive shells and demolitions.

That being said, I'm raising my son to be safe by me telling him what is safe and what isn't. I don't expect others to be responsible for him by hiding information. I plan on instilling in him to understand how dangerous something is before doing it. At 3.5 years I feel comfortable not having to put away my modeling tools when he comes over. He knows that the desk is dangerous for him right now.

[ark_ader]

Well you did edit it after I gave you the push.

no, i didn't actually, i edited the post to add the photo gallery (that you aren't allowed to look at because it depicts acts that are unsafe. (NSFA - Not Safe For ark_ader))

the post always had a safety disclaimer, much as all my posts where i explain something that is remotely hazardous to life, limb, or equipment.

What images? 

Keep digging. 

[SavannahLion]

That being said, I'm raising my son to be safe by me telling him what is safe and what isn't. I don't expect others to be responsible for him by hiding information. I plan on instilling in him to understand how dangerous something is before doing it. At 3.5 years I feel comfortable not having to put away my modeling tools when he comes over. He knows that the desk is dangerous for him right now.

That is exactly my point and exactly what I try to instill in both my kids and my nephews.

Problem is, there'll be nine kids and eleven different way of teaching the same thing. Even funnier, my two oldest wants to hang out at my brother-in-law (Dad is too strict!  ) and my brother-in-laws four oldest want to hang out at my place (Hey kids! Wanna launch rockets?  ). I dunno. 

[MonMotha]

Lead acid batteries don't really have a propensity for blowing up.  They do generate hydrogen gas which is flammable or explosive, but the battery itself is much more of a chemical burn hazard due to the sulfuric acid than it is an explosion hazard.  Even if you overcharge, they tend to just outgas (i.e. generate hydrogen).  As long as you don't have them sealed tight, they generally won't explode, though I wouldn't recommend deliberately mistreating them, of course.  This isn't a Lithium Polymer battery or anything like that.  We use them in cars not only because they're cheap but because they take a fair bit of abuse without major performance degradation let alone safety issues.

12V isn't usually too much of a direct human touch hazard in that it won't cause significant current draw in the presence of normal skin resistance.  Break the skin resistance, though, and you can kill yourself with a 1.5V AA battery, so don't get overly cavalier.  BUT, a large lead acid battery can dump a significant amount of energy in a very short time (i.e. it has high power capacity).  Shorting large (car battery size) lead acids with a smallish conductor such as a coat hanger or even a wrench can give rise to basically an arc flash.  That would seem to be the primary electrical hazard.

Of course, the process described in the OP, which is not particularly new or unknown, involves physical disassembly and mucking with the battery chemically to some degree.  This can be dangerous.  If you know what you're doing, use the appropriate PPE, and are careful, it's probably not much worse than using a table saw in terms of safety.

As to charging, as long as you don't try to dump more than about 1C into the battery, you're probably not going to blow it up especially if you monitor the temperature.  An interesting property of a flooded lead acid (less applicable to sealed but still to some degree) is that the water+acid solution tends to self-extinguish any fires that show up, and the physical structures are large enough that it takes a fair bit of damage to cause internal shorts.  Most of the explosions are from hydrogen, and most of the fires you'll hear of are from the battery casing just burning on its own (possibly lit by a hydrogen fire).

Would I recommend doing this for gits and shiggles or in your living room? No, absolutely not.  However, there are probably far more dangerous topics of discussion in the woodworking section of this forum than the procedures described in the OP.  People have done things like this on flooded batteries for quite some time.  My major concern with doing it on a sealed type would be that the battery is unlikely to be "sealed" when you're done, so leaking may be an issue in the future.

[ark_ader]

Lead acid batteries don't really have a propensity for blowing up.  They do generate hydrogen gas which is flammable or explosive, but the battery itself is much more of a chemical burn hazard due to the sulfuric acid than it is an explosion hazard.  Even if you overcharge, they tend to just outgas (i.e. generate hydrogen).  As long as you don't have them sealed tight, they generally won't explode, though I wouldn't recommend deliberately mistreating them, of course.  This isn't a Lithium Polymer battery or anything like that.  We use them in cars not only because they're cheap but because they take a fair bit of abuse without major performance degradation let alone safety issues.

12V isn't usually too much of a direct human touch hazard in that it won't cause significant current draw in the presence of normal skin resistance.  Break the skin resistance, though, and you can kill yourself with a 1.5V AA battery, so don't get overly cavalier.  BUT, a large lead acid battery can dump a significant amount of energy in a very short time (i.e. it has high power capacity).  Shorting large (car battery size) lead acids with a smallish conductor such as a coat hanger or even a wrench can give rise to basically an arc flash.  That would seem to be the primary electrical hazard.

Of course, the process described in the OP, which is not particularly new or unknown, involves physical disassembly and mucking with the battery chemically to some degree.  This can be dangerous.  If you know what you're doing, use the appropriate PPE, and are careful, it's probably not much worse than using a table saw in terms of safety.

As to charging, as long as you don't try to dump more than about 1C into the battery, you're probably not going to blow it up especially if you monitor the temperature.  An interesting property of a flooded lead acid (less applicable to sealed but still to some degree) is that the water+acid solution tends to self-extinguish any fires that show up, and the physical structures are large enough that it takes a fair bit of damage to cause internal shorts.  Most of the explosions are from hydrogen, and most of the fires you'll hear of are from the battery casing just burning on its own (possibly lit by a hydrogen fire).

Would I recommend doing this for gits and shiggles or in your living room? No, absolutely not.  However, there are probably far more dangerous topics of discussion in the woodworking section of this forum than the procedures described in the OP.  People have done things like this on flooded batteries for quite some time.  My major concern with doing it on a sealed type would be that the battery is unlikely to be "sealed" when you're done, so leaking may be an issue in the future.

Agreed.  Woodworking or Arcade Miscellaneous not EE.  It is not rocket science.  Let's get a mod to move the thread.  And if there is a degree of curious manipulation with technology other than hacks just post it in a more suitable forum.

[SavannahLion]

This thread has nothing to do with woodworking and more to do with electronics and less to do with Arcade Miscellaneous. Seeing as how there really isn't a General Electronics section EE is probably the suitable forum.

There are plenty of hacks across this forum. Best to leave that can of worms closed. 

[lilshawn]

What images? 

Keep digging. 

glad to see you actually read the post. 

Agreed.  Woodworking or Arcade Miscellaneous not EE.  It is not rocket science.  Let's get a mod to move the thread.  And if there is a degree of curious manipulation with technology other than hacks just post it in a more suitable forum.

Christ, can you read the descriptions?!?! I thought I was talking to an adult, not a 9 year old that skims through the text in an effort to escape actual work.

1) Woodworking
Questions, answers, and blank stares about working with wood and woodworking tools and model rocketry.

2) Miscellaneous Arcade
Gameroom design, skeeball, - anything arcade related that doesn't fit elsewhere.

No, and no. This has N O T H I N G to do with arcade.

Everything Else
Fluff and warm fuzzies that don't fit on other boards. No politics or religion allowed!

sounds right to me.

My major concern with doing it on a sealed type would be that the battery is unlikely to be "sealed" when you're done, so leaking may be an issue in the future.

the area in question is simply a cover to keep the rubber caps installed and is only held in place with glue in a few areas to allow the battery to vent. as long as you don't overfill the chamber, it won't spill. the thing which make it "non-spillable" is the fiberglas mat. I touched a little bit about how it was constructed. in a normal lead acid battery like a car battery you have 2 plates suspended in acid. in the sealed battery, the acid is contained in the fiberglas matting (or in some cases gel.) and the matting is wrapped around the plates. because the acid is soaked into the matting, there is nothing to spill.

the battery must still vent gasses so it's really impossible to "seal" the battery per se. I think the idea of them calling them "sealed" was that they were more low or no maintenance. (IE you don't have to continually add water to the cells.) more so in that if they "seal" the battery to discourage maintenance and eventually failure leading to sales. Companies are in it to make money, and conspiracy theories and planned obsolescence aside, making a product have a finite lifetime creates your own product demand.

[MonMotha]

the area in question is simply a cover to keep the rubber caps installed and is only held in place with glue in a few areas to allow the battery to vent. as long as you don't overfill the chamber, it won't spill. the thing which make it "non-spillable" is the fiberglas mat. I touched a little bit about how it was constructed. in a normal lead acid battery like a car battery you have 2 plates suspended in acid. in the sealed battery, the acid is contained in the fiberglas matting (or in some cases gel.) and the matting is wrapped around the plates. because the acid is soaked into the matting, there is nothing to spill.

the battery must still vent gasses so it's really impossible to "seal" the battery per se. I think the idea of them calling them "sealed" was that they were more low or no maintenance. (IE you don't have to continually add water to the cells.) more so in that if they "seal" the battery to discourage maintenance and eventually failure leading to sales. Companies are in it to make money, and conspiracy theories and planned obsolescence aside, making a product have a finite lifetime creates your own product demand.

Yep, a more proper term is a "Valve Regulated Lead Acid" battery or VRLA.  I've seen these leak some if the valve/seals are loose or improperly placed during manufacturing which could also occur when servicing them like this especially since the little top plate may not securely hold the seals in place when re-installed.  The fiberglass mat will at least keep the leak to a slow drip, generally, rather than a total spill like can happen with flooded batteries.  Even a slow drip can be a problem when you're dripping sulfuric acid, though.

[eds1275]

I think that this post and all the worry about how dangerous it COULD BE to someone misusing the instructions ridicuous. Think of the most dangerous thing you can think of... now google instructions on how to do it.

I have no interest in reviving/recharging old dead batteries but I found the read fascinating.

[ark_ader]

I think that this post and all the worry about how dangerous it COULD BE to someone misusing the instructions ridicuous. Think of the most dangerous thing you can think of... now google instructions on how to do it.

I have no interest in reviving/recharging old dead batteries but I found the read fascinating.

Agreed.

Which has diluted the topic.  Shame that it took so many posts to achieve.

[danny_galaga]

I mostly see what Ark is saying, except that I don't see how 12V will kill you (via electrocution anyway).

It helps if you stand in water, but not on your head.   

Even that won't do anything. Even with the very low resistance of a starter motor for instance, You can put a 12V car starter in a bucket of water, hook up some cables and run it. It will run, no problems at all. In fact, I seem to recall that people used to run in 540 sized motors (often 7.2V) for model cars and boats using that very technique!

Ohms law works there, as well as for not getting electrocuted by low voltage- you wants the current, you needs the low resistance.

Oh, and Monmotha, having been an auto electrician, I am here to tell you that car batteries certainly can blow up, with a HUGE bang! After which you've sprayed the whole underside of the bonnet with sulphuric acid, but hopefully not yourself...

[ark_ader]

OK try that standing in a bucket of water and get someone to turn the key. 

[lilshawn]

OK try that standing in a bucket of water and get someone to turn the key. 

facepalm

electricity is as lazy as it is deadly.

it will take the path of least resistance. provided the starter motor circuit resistance is less than the resistance of whichever portion of you is touching the positive lead and whichever portion of the negative lead is touching the water you are standing in...i suppose it could happen.

[ed12]

man this thread went from how to do some thing to soap opera on what could happen's if u breath....?
my god get over your selfs
lets get back on track for the sake of the thread

ed

[MonMotha]

Oh, and Monmotha, having been an auto electrician, I am here to tell you that car batteries certainly can blow up, with a HUGE bang! After which you've sprayed the whole underside of the bonnet with sulphuric acid, but hopefully not yourself...

I did say that they "don't have a propensity for blowing up" not that they never do   They're pretty forgiving, but nothing will take an infinite amount of abuse especially if damaged or very worn out.

Most of what I read actually turn out to be hydrogen explosions, though.  That's why jump-starting a car can be dangerous.  You often create a spark when attaching the cables, and there's usually some hydrogen in the area.  Actually, removing the cables can be worse: you've charged the battery some, and the battery is likely defective (hence why it needed a jump) and so will tend to evolve more hydrogen during the wildly inefficient charging process, and you can still easily get a spark when removing the cables.

Not that a hydrogen explosion is really any better... There's plenty of hydrogen inside the battery casing which will also frequently ignite and can cause, well, the battery to explode.  I can't say I've ever read of anyone actually blowing up a lead acid battery by simply overcharging/overheating it, but it's probably happened.  That is much more of a danger with Lithium, especially Li-Polymer, batteries, though.

[ed12]

MonMotha
please add nicad and acalyde
where nicad is by far hands down the worst,hence the reason all there charges all trickel style,and not full on full bang style

the funny thing about a car batt
is u can see it leaking..at that point it is telling u hey bud i am shot
recyle me and get a new 1

ed

[lilshawn]

the very high currents involved with jump starting can be nearing 100 amps. this is a real problem for leaded batteries because very large amounts of hydrogen gas are produced at these high amperages. Copious amounts of hydrogen are produced in the minute or so it takes to charge a battery enough to start a car. you start your car, and a surge of amps from the alternator dumps into the battery, making the hydrogen production even worse. you pull the jumper cable and boof!

this is why a slow charge approach is needed for restoring batteries. the battery absorbs the gas if it's produced. that is why they recomend you remove the caps on the cells, so the gas produced can easily escape.

[MonMotha]

Oh jeesh, Nickle chemistry rechargeable batteries are awful little critters.  Yeah, don't screw around with those unless you really know what you're doing.  In some ways, they're harder to deal with than Lithium-ion types.  Lithium-ion are surprisingly easy to charge "correctly"; you just absolutely cannot overcharge them.  And yeah, you should never attempt to re-charge a typical primary cell such as alkaline, zinc ("heavy duty"), etc.

In general, the only batteries with structures large enough to be mechanically serviced are lead acid types.  They're thankfully also among the most forgiving, but that doesn't mean you don't have to be careful!

[ed12]

saftey first and foremost

but as the nick was pointing out they did take all of that into account

ed

[danny_galaga]

Oh, and Monmotha, having been an auto electrician, I am here to tell you that car batteries certainly can blow up, with a HUGE bang! After which you've sprayed the whole underside of the bonnet with sulphuric acid, but hopefully not yourself...

I did say that they "don't have a propensity for blowing up" not that they never do   They're pretty forgiving, but nothing will take an infinite amount of abuse especially if damaged or very worn out.

Most of what I read actually turn out to be hydrogen explosions, though. 

Yeah are on the same page basically. If you think about it, what else would be exploding? The lead? 

[danny_galaga]

OK try that standing in a bucket of water and get someone to turn the key. 

facepalm

electricity is as lazy as it is deadly.

it will take the path of least resistance. provided the starter motor circuit resistance is less than the resistance of whichever portion of you is touching the positive lead and whichever portion of the negative lead is touching the water you are standing in...i suppose it could happen.

A bucket of water may as well be a bucket of air to a 12V battery. It doesn't make a lick of difference. The resistance of a starter motor at rest is just a fraction of one ohm. It's virtually a dead short.  My starter experiment would probably even work in a bucket of SALT water (but don't quote me on that) but there will be some wicked electrolysis and you wouldn't count on that starter working properly/at all even just one day later...