Modern nominal dimension lumber v/s vintage full dimension lumber - Discuss.

[TopJimmyCooks]

It has been suggested that vintage, full dimension lumber is better for construction than modern nominal dimension lumber.

For the uninitiated:  modern 2x4's are actually 1.5" by 3.5".  Modern 2x12's are 1.5" by 11.25".  Originally 2x4" lumber was rough cut green to these dimensions and ended up very slightly smaller after finishing and drying, but was still close to full dimension.  Over the years, the lumber industry brought in kiln drying and different finishing techniques and the size got smaller and smaller.  But also more standardized.  Yes, obviously this was to sell smaller wood for a higher price on the part of the lumber suppliers.  I'm not going to try to summarize the development of current lumber grading and standards, it's out there if you want to look at it. 

Pro's of vintage lumber:
-Full dimension, larger cross section, more wood, more strength
-generally, cut from older growth timber, more likely to be straight grained, knot free

Con's of Vintage lumber:
-Often it's extremely dry.  the resin is very hard so it can be hard to cut, nail.  It may be prone cracking/hard to use.
-If you're adding to it or changing/renovating, you can't get the same thing easily due to smaller modern nominal sizes.  you have to buy the next size up and rip it down, or otherwise adapt.
-the wood species may be naturally rot resistant but it will not be pressure treated.
-not always consistent in size or length. 
-air dried and sometimes installed while too green. 

Pro's of modern lumber:
-lighter, although species affects this greatly.
-drier when installed, modern kiln drying.
-more consistent in size and length- not just what the sawmill was running that day. 
-more consistent grading - stud, #2, #3.  you can get nice lumber where you need it (at high cost) and cheaper stuff where it doesn't show. 
-more consistent species in a given pile of wood.
-bottom line, you can get it as nice or as crappy as you want, the price and availability will vary proportionally.     

Con's of modern lumber:
-fast growth species dominate.  smaller trees, more knots, more bad pieces of lumber in a pile.  maybe more wane (bark). you can get appearance grade fir studs for an exposed application, but you're going to pay a heck of a lot.
-A given piece of wood may be weaker due to more knots, wider growth rings, defects, etc.  however you have the assurance of statistically a given level of minimum strength due to grading practice.

If I'm building a house, the modern lumber is a better product - stronger end result due to consistency and qc.  flatter walls.  benefits of standardization of sizes with other building products.  less waste.  easier workability.  lower cost.  fewer splinters.  If I'm renovating a really old wood framed structure, I'm happy to see those full dimension joists, etc. and I would keep as much as possible.  The wood I took out I would keep for woodworking projects, remill into flooring, etc. never the burn pile.  Building codes to this day allow you to calculate your joist spans based on actual size and species, modern dimensional is not required.  Modern grading is required but your supplier can do that for you. 

Interested in opinions, counterpoint, stories, etc. 

There's not even a debate that sheet goods are way better than skip sheathing, let's not go there. 

[Typefighter01]

My buddy builds pergolas out of hemlock (used in alot of old school barn building), he gets it cut by a local woodmill in true dimensional specs, usually 2 x 6 or 2 x 12 and it looks fantastic. It instantly gives the impression of age and strength (oh and it is strong, thats for sure). He suggests to his customers they shouldn't waste their time staining it, just let it age and grow a natural petina like most barns you see.

This consistent grading on modern lumber is a joke. When I was building the table top for my CNC router I figured, I only need six or seven 2 x 4's, so I am going to ask for the straightest, most expensive 2 x 4's they sell. Anyway paid my monies and headed out to their storage facility only to find myself sorting through at least 30 or 40 seperate boards to find 7 that did not look like hockey sticks. I don't mind a few crowns as I can build crowns into the table and have it lay pretty flat when I am finished, but to have 70% of his pile twisted up like pretzels was annoying. I apologized to the kid who had to stand there and watch me sort through his pile and he said he was emabarrassed and if you pay for straight lumber thats what you should get.

As for building homes out of vintage lumber, only if you enjoy working with wood and don't mind making custom cuts at every turn.

[TopJimmyCooks]

I love the idea of using a rot resistant wood like hemlock for outdoor work instead of the nasty treated wood.  It's not available in my area.  Our closest decay resistant wood is cypress.

Consistent grading is not a joke- the pile you were looking at was just consistently bad - or Low Grade.  sounds like they were Stud grade and a bad bunk of those to boot.  for your CNC table you need someone to sell you #1 or #2 Fir studs.  they will be consistently straight and clear, although I would still pick the pile for especially nice ones.  I see plenty of terrible lumber at consumer lumberyards, although it's gotten better while getting much more pricy. 

[Vigo]

I guess your pro/Con list is a little weird to me. It is like you are contemplating whether to build a modern house with milled / hand hewn vintage lumber or modern lumber. I'm sure you know the process for building a home is simply not the same as 100+ years ago. Consequently, houses at the time were built to last and had a lot more character. My impression was you started this thread because Howard and I simply said that although it is more inconsistently sized and laid, a well-built old house with mature lumber will be much stronger than a modern built home with all its standardizations. But our comments really have nothing to do with today's processes. Just acknowledging that homes, framework-wise, were built much sturdier.

There is a reason these loggers go into old forests and look for downed old trees, it is a gold mine mature wood. Mature wood is simply harder (and more beautiful). We do not let our trees age anymore. Tree farms grow pine as quickly as possible and chop it down the minute it is large enough to be cut to the minimum size needed for the lumber it will produce. And lumber size is based on the minimally acceptable dimensions to meet code.

So you can complain about dimensions of vintage lumber and hail the merits of a modern lumber grading system, but the bottom line is that stability was not a concern 100 years ago. How big did they mill the wood? To a size large enough that they knew it could hold for a hundred years and more. Having the ability to know wood strength was all part of being a carpenter at the time. I am pretty sure we were on the guild system at the time. I am sure you would know better than I.

And with modern methods, you just won't see the beauty of of the wood anymore, not unless you walk into a custom built, wealthier home that spends a lot of money on woodwork. I mean, beautiful woodwork was just standard 100 years ago.



Just look at that beautiful beam lumber.  That is a modern building using reclaimed lumber.

And on a similiar note, how about all the trim we once had?



You just can't compare this to modern standard molding and trim, at least not unless a ton of cash into specialty material.

This picture is similar to what is in my house, and what I have is thicker and more detailed. My point is that this kind of trim is very standard for the time. Not a wealthy person's trim by any means, just a simple peasant bungalow.




Let's face it, wood was just better. Rougher cut for framework, yes, but it the mature wood were to be as readily available now as it was then, modern lumber would as it stands today is an absolute joke. The fact that twisted and warped wood is even being sold is just pathetic given all of today's advancements.

[TopJimmyCooks]

I agree with basically everything - and thanks for taking the time to post the pics.  I'm a hobby woodworker and carpenter and I appreciate quality and certainly realize the impact of the lesser wood quality available today.  Certain types have gotten much rarer and more expensive in my lifetime.  Solid stain grade trim is starting to be a damn expensive proposition.  I've never had the chance to live in a house where the trim wasn't pine or painted. 

The only thing I would say is if today's dimensional framing lumber, graded, in totally inferior fast growth woods, was available to 17th century guild joiners, they would have totally use it for framing instead of heavy timber.  They valued speed and efficiency as well as craftsmanship, their lives depended on it.  They weren't trying to make art, although that was sometimes the end result later.

The fact that twisted and warped wood is even being sold is just pathetic given all of today's advancements.

This is very true and I think we'll see in our lifetime that the cheaper grades of wood in areas further from the forests will be supplanted by more engineered studs and composites being used for framing.  Engineered I joists have already replaced 2x in almost all residential over 1 story.  Only a matter of time 'til the similar happens with standing studs.  Then they'll wax nostalgic about the days of 2x4 SPF framing with all the knots and twists. 

[Vigo]

Well,  I always appreciate learning from woodworking aficionados and people in the industry such as yourself. For me, it was always the "family business" but I never followed that path so I always try to take in whatever I can. Thanks for the additional insight. 

I am really interested in seeing the direction we take with engineered/composite materials. From my own observation, it has already immensely expanded affordable flooring and decking options.

[Typefighter01]

Consistent grading is not a joke- the pile you were looking at was just consistently bad - or Low Grade.  sounds like they were Stud grade and a bad bunk of those to boot.  for your CNC table you need someone to sell you #1 or #2 Fir studs.  they will be consistently straight and clear, although I would still pick the pile for especially nice ones.  I see plenty of terrible lumber at consumer lumberyards, although it's gotten better while getting much more pricy.

Went out and deciphered the lumber stamps on the 2 x 4's I used and sure enough they say "stud" on them. This is what I don't understand, if I sold wood "FOR A LIVING", (it was a family owned lumber yard) I would make sure
I had a stock of #1 or #2 so when a customer specifically asks for a straight piece of lumber (price is no object my good man...give me your best) I have something to sell him. I will be completely honest with you, I have had better customer service and straighter, cleaner, cheaper lumber at Home Depot than I have ever gotten at a "Lumber Yard". The family owned lumber yards will go the way of the do-do bird unless they can offer something the big box stores can't. I understand I need to educate myself, but god man, I would hate to have seen the two cheaper options that were available when I asked (standard and utility grade I am guessing they were). It's a cliche but brick and motar stores are dying because they have nothing to offer. The staff hate their jobs, their selection blows, they are too expensive...if I could order wood through Amazon I would do it (I should check before I finish writing this post cause they pretty much sell everthing else on the planet).

TopJimmy, you obviously know what your talking about and have a care for woodworking and wood in general, but you represent only a small portion of the industry (from what I have read, it sounds like you have family or friends in the business), the rest of the industry is full of old timers with attitudes and high school girls looking for a summer paycheck  .

Looks like Amazon.com can sell me shims, balsa wood, firewood and a box of assorted hardwoods from Rockler...just a matter of time I guess 

Sorry TopJimmy I mis-read, it's Vigo with the family ties to the industry...

[Howard_Casto]

Vigo basically mirrors my sentiments.  In terms of structural construction there isn't any point to put it up for debate, the old stuff is just better, end of story, BUT you are going to use the new stuff because it's cheaper.  The only time old stuff is used today is in exposed ceilings or beams and in really high end homes.  It's purely a cost thing. 

I would actually argue against inconsistent sizing as well.  Old lumber is harder... it generally doesn't warp, so it's typically straighter than new stuff.  Sizes don't really matter all that much, but straightness does.  Also the same guy who cut the wood is probably building your house back in the day, so as long as the size is consistent for him, it isn't such a big deal. 

On the other hand, unless you are getting really high grade stuff, modern lumber is usually warped straight from the hardware store, and a splash of water will warp it even further.

Mom and pop lumber stores are gone... you have Lowes, Home Depot and 84 Lumber, and they all suck. 

I can remember ordering furniture grade plywood from Lowes for my pac-man cab... I made them take the stuff back.. TWICE.  The first time it was terribly warped... the second it looked like somebody put it in the truck by beating it with a sledge hammer.  The third it still had issues, but it was finally acceptable so I took it. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

Went out and deciphered the lumber stamps on the 2 x 4's I used and sure enough they say "stud" on them. This is what I don't understand, if I sold wood "FOR A LIVING", (it was a family owned lumber yard) I would make sure
I had a stock of #1 or #2 so when a customer specifically asks for a straight piece of lumber (price is no object my good man...give me your best) I have something to sell him.

Truth-big boxes don't carry appearance grade 2x wood.  "stud" means a structural quality where as number grading goes towards number of knots and other things that help with appearance.  The reason is because for every 1 cab builder wanting #2 there are 99 yahoos that want the absolute cheapest thing.  To get nice studs for a screen porch or something, you have to special order (which stinks at the big boxes) or go to the rare, family lumberyard that caters to the more exotic because they've been driven out of commodity framing lumber by the Borg. 

. . . . The family owned lumber yards will go the way of the do-do bird unless they can offer something the big box stores can't. I understand I need to educate myself, but god man, I would hate to have seen the two cheaper options that were available when I asked (standard and utility grade I am guessing they were). It's a cliche but brick and motar stores are dying because they have nothing to offer. The staff hate their jobs, their selection blows, they are too expensive...

The local yards have pretty much been killed by the big boxes. 

if I could order wood through Amazon I would do it (I should check before I finish writing this post cause they pretty much sell everthing else on the planet).

Too big/heavy to ship so online orders are rare.  Call a local custom cabinet shop and find out who they order from.  order from that company and pay by credit card.  get it shipped to the shop with their regular delivery and pick it up from them.  If you're cool and don't waste their time you can make friends that way.