MAME Mega Cabinet getting an update. Time to get with the times.

[dgrams2000]

Hi everyone.
So here is my existing cabinet. (The big one.)  I got rid of the smaller one to my nephew a few years back.

Entire 'build page' here: http://webpages.charter.net/cablehaven/largemachine.html

Since these pictures, we have moved into a new house with an unfinished basement and we are starting to throw around ideas for what we want to do down there.  Unfortunately the Mega Cabinet sticks way out in the room. (70" from back to the front of the Control Panel)  I bargained with my wife that if the big cabinet goes.. I wanted something like a KONOMI (TMNT) style or Dragon's Lair cab to go in it's place.

After browsing around the web... I came across a place that sells the newer Golden Tee and other games that are basically a Control Panel with the LCD tv on a mount...

 I started thinking about this and since I really love my CP the way it is now... Why not ditch the back part of the cabinet and put in an LCD TV mount, with an LCD?

So, I've been researching this tonight..
 I can take off the back half of my cabinet/TV.. (Saving about 28")
Get some steel poles, a tv mounting bracket, and TV... and pull this off pretty easily.

The three big questions are...
1) How big of a TV?  The CP is 4' across. Too small of a TV may look silly... but too large of a TV would be distracting as it will be so close to the players and the CP.   Right now I'm thinking of trying to go with a 37" tv.  Any thoughts on this?

2) A name.  I need a name for this project.     Something hip and cool - because I feel I'm getting the cabinet 'up with the times'... but since it is playing retro games...  I dunno. Maybe 'Back To The Future'?  Nah. Too Hokey. lol

3) What the heck am I going to with the back end of this cabinet? (and TV?)  It hurts me to think that it may end up unwanted or uneeded.. I think I paid a butt ton of money for this cabinet.   

[Yenome]

personally i would go with bout a 42in tv. and either keep the same distance from the front of the tv to the control panel or add 6in to make up for the extra size tv. you would just be able to push is closer to the wall, so still wont be out as far as before. for the old tv section i would put a post on here and klov and see if anyone is interested in it. i would be if you was any where near the hickory area of NC.  im lost as for a name i vote you dont use any thing with the word retro in it been going round too much.

[dgrams2000]

Here is a quick photoshop of the two together...


I wasn't 100% sure thinking about it.. but it might work out pretty good.  Off to the stores I go...

[BadMouth]

rough rule of thumb is the diagonal size of the tv should be around the same as the distance from your eyeballs to the screen.

Most of the games will show up 4:3 though, so I would go with the measurement of the 4:3 image, not the entire screen.
Example - I have a 27" widescreen in my cab and the 4:3 games show up as 22".
If I get bored at work later, I'll work out an equation. 

Lotta assumptions here, but for the sake of coming up with a number now:
So if you had a 70" deep cab - 28" cut off the back = 42" deep.
-8" space for poles and thickness of tv (unless you just mount it on the wall) + space you'll be standing back from the CP = cancelled out.
...and a 46" tv would probably still be comfortable.

Of course if you wanted to go with the 37", you could move the CP closer to save space.

[yotsuya]

2) A name.  I need a name for this project.     Something hip and cool - because I feel I'm getting the cabinet 'up with the times'... but since it is playing retro games...  I dunno. Maybe 'Back To The Future'?  Nah. Too Hokey.

I don't thin it's hokey at all. A theme is great. Just don't call it LCDcade or something generic like that.

[Yenome]

rough rule of thumb is the diagonal size of the tv should be around the same as the distance from your eyeballs to the screen.

Most of the games will show up 4:3 though, so I would go with the measurement of the 4:3 image, not the entire screen.
Example - I have a 27" widescreen in my cab and the 4:3 games show up as 22".
If I get bored at work later, I'll work out an equation. 

take the screen size of the 4:3 an times it by 1.22 this will tell you what size hdtv to get to keep the same 4:3 size.
36*1.22=43.92 so 44in or go with 42 since its close enough or go up to 46.

[BadMouth]

take the screen size of the 4:3 an times it by 1.22 this will tell you what size hdtv to get to keep the same 4:3 size.
36*1.22=43.92 so 44in or go with 42 since its close enough or go up to 46.

Thanks for saving me from having to think about it harder. 

The cab currently has a 32" CRT TV, so 32*1.22=39" to have the same size 4:3 image you have now.

[kahlid74]

Interesting idea.  The only comment I would have is to make sure your pedestal is slim on the bottom.  When you convert to something with a thin/slim base it may look awkward if your pedestal base is fat and clunky.

[rCadeGaming]

I guess no one's going to like this, but honestly, I would leave it alone.  Unless you're playing very new games with HD resolutions, an LCD is not going to look nearly as good as a real CRT.  Keep in mind that 90% of the games in MAME (including SFII, as in your pic) have native resolutions around 240p.  Also keep in mind that most LCD's lag badly, whereas the CRT you have now is lag free.  If you must go with an LCD for aesthetics (which should be secondary to actual gameplay IMHO), at least be sure to get something with minimal input lag (response rate does not measure input lag).

[Yenome]

I guess no one's going to like this, but honestly, I would leave it alone.  Unless you're playing very new games with HD resolutions, an LCD is not going to look nearly as good as a real CRT.  Keep in mind that 90% of the games in MAME (including SFII, as in your pic) have native resolutions around 240p.  Also keep in mind that most LCD's lag badly, whereas the CRT you have now is lag free.  If you must go with an LCD for aesthetics (which should be secondary to actual gameplay IMHO), at least be sure to get something with minimal input lag (response rate does not measure input lag).

I dont see how the lcd it self has anything to do with input lag that is on the hardware of the controls and pc not the lcd. since most new lcd have a 5ms response rate the same as most lcd monitors i think your ok with using an lcd i use my 47in lcd all the time to play all pc games and arcade. but like rcade said the lcd res is too high for that classic look. you can simulate it but there is nothing like the native res on a crt. course in your case you have to go lcd as the S.A.R (spouse approval rating) isnt too high on that big monster.

[rCadeGaming]

Typical LCD's can lag 2-3 frames or more.  Again, response rate does not measure input lag. 

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-new-definitive-hdtv-lag-faq.55593/

Edit:  That link seems to have stopped working, here's a new one

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/145141/sub-1-frame-hdtvmonitor-input-lag-database/p1

http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database.145141/

The controller encoder should have minimal lag if you're using a proper one.  It can also be minimized on the PC end with a good MAME version correctly configured.  Yes this is also a concern, but none of the lag between the controls, the PC, the emulation, the display, and the player's reaction time "cancels out" in any way; it is all additive.  It needs to be minimized wherever possible or it adds up to a huge detriment to gameplay.

[Yenome]

I tried the GH2 test with GH3 and on my 47in lcd native 1080p 60hz 3d lg tv over copsite i got 0ms lag. only time i got it to respone ot saying lag was to wait and let the mark go past the strum area. perhaps i got a good tv or the info is outdated by the technology. but mine was just made last year so could be it. dont know anyone else with a lcd tv so cant try it on theres. tho id like to find one that did see if i can notice the diff. i went from crt to lcd pc monitor to this tv.

[rCadeGaming]

The first link was put up for the information about what input lag is.  What is outdated there is the suggestion of using the GH/Rock Band test.  It's not reliable at all because of the human error involved, and the way you can easily adjust skew the results on purpose.  To accurately measure input lag you need to do the stopwatch or oscilloscope method as in the second link, or this:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129004.0.html

or the best way would be to use this:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/LagTest/

The GH tests are clearly wrong.  You said you hooked up the console with composite?  This means the signal entered the TV at 480i, had to be deinterlaced and upscaled to the TV's native res, then any further processing the TV might do, then finally begin to display.  0ms is physically impossible.  Even when inputting native res, the best LCD's in the world still lag 4-8ms.

[Yenome]

i'd like to do the new tests just to see how it fairs. if i believe the tv when im running the ps2 its running in 480i. tho i would think the input lag would have to be high enough for you to even notice it. is it really a reason to not use lcd if its not noticable. i been using mine and besides the lack of authentic looks it doesnt do too bad. still when i build my cab i have a 32in tv waiting on it still need the component transcoder tho.

[dgrams2000]

Kahlid74: if you click on my link in the top post, you will see how wide the CP pedastal is.  Its a good width.

As far as the old monitor... I was only using a 27" TV in the cabinet.  So, picture was horrible.. small text - unreadable.  Couldn't do much worse than that.

I did some testing with my PC on an older (5yr old) Samsung 42" LCD that we have. (Just using VGA)
My big issue was it that LCDs naturally dont have scanlines.  And simulating scanlines in emulators is just never really that good.
I tested a bunch of mame games... took hardware stretch off, then added scanlines... 25%, 50%, 75%  Nothing really looked that good.  The scanlines still were in 'groups' all the way down the screen and it looked bad.

Went ahead and purchased a 42" LCD for just over $400.  Can't go wrong at BestBuy since I can just return it if I don't like it.

(The cute little puppy we got just a week earlier.  His name is Chester.)   

Hooked up the TV and put some MAME on it... Took off hardware stretch, added 75% scanlines... WOW!!!
WHAT A DIFFERENCE IN TV's!    Ms Pacman looks... Freaking brilliant.  Donkey Kong... Spectacular!
I've never seen the emulated scanlines look good until I saw them on this TV.   I am 100% happy with how this is turning out.
I tried to get a picture of it, but my S3 is not doing the TV justice with how the pics are turning out.. so...

(Yes, I know.. the pic is not showing Mame.. but couldn't resist running this...  When in production, Dragon's Lair video will be scaled down to 4:3 instead of the widescreen stretch...)


Here is my Frontend I'm working on for Mame/Daphne now that it looks awesome on the big TV.. Using the "3D Arcade" frontend.  Its so cool to walk around in the arcade filled with my games.  (Well.. a small portion of them atleast..)


Anyways...
I got poles I want to use to support the TV... Working on building a base for the poles to run down into (which will attach to the base of the CP)
I'm working on sketches/concepts for it right now... Will have to find someone that can cut some wood for me.... Hopefully I can get the wood and get it cut in the next week... then hopefully be attaching it to the cabinet in a week or so from now..

[rCadeGaming]

i would think the input lag would have to be high enough for you to even notice it. is it really a reason to not use lcd if its not noticable.

It can be holding you back from playing well and fully enjoying the game whether you realize it or not.  Try playing the original Super Mario Bros. emulated on a PC with a typical LCD for a few days.  You might not realize how bad it is because you're "used to it."  Then plug a real NES into a real standard def CRT and play it again.  You will realize how much better it feels, and what you've been missing.

when i build my cab i have a 32in tv waiting

Damn, that's pretty big, is it for a showcase?

I was only using a 27" TV in the cabinet.  So, picture was horrible.. small text - unreadable.  Couldn't do much worse than that.

27" is plenty large.  How old was the TV, and how were you connecting the TV to it?  Of course it was bad if you used a graphics card's "TV-out" with composite or S-video.

[dgrams2000]

Actually, the tv I used in this showcase cab was 32"  Not sure why I was thinking 27".
Yeah.. I was connecting into it via a VGA to SVideo converter.. The picture was horrible that way.
The TV was bought in 2002 I think it was (probably the last year you could buy these TVs) so with as much as I've used the TV in here... it wil probably last a lifetime. lol.  Too bad I may just have to pitch it.

[rCadeGaming]

Well, it would look great if connected properly, and a good TV for old consoles is always good to have.  At least try to give it away if you don't want it.

[wetwaterwalker]

Hello! I am in Johnson City and if you are gonna throw that TV away I will drive to come get it. I am picking up my cabinet tomorrow (gutted) So I am in the market for a good TV. haha.

[wetwaterwalker]

Scratch that. I read Hickory NC earlier and I thought that was where you were located. I'll learn to read one day.

[dgrams2000]

Yes, I'll try getting rid of everything I can first before ditching anything.

Wetwaterwalker:  If you are ever out on a road trip...

[wetwaterwalker]

How far of a road trip and in what direction? haha. I actually think I found one close though.

[Yenome]

heh IM near hickory NC

[dgrams2000]

Pulled the showcase cabinet apart.  Going to attach the LCD TV base to the bottom of the CP.


Got my wood at Home Depot and had them do a few square cuts for me to get the pieces to size.
Nice that they cut for free...

Drilled my 1 3/8" holes in the wood for the poles to pass through.

Got further, but no more time for pics tonight.  Will put more up soon.

[Yenome]

I'm interested to see how you will attach the LCD to the base. I would think you would need to add some to the base to keep the view distance correct.

[dgrams2000]

The diagonal size of my LED TV (in 4:3 mode) is 25".   30.5" (approx) would be my viewing distance in this case.
I measured from approx where the screen will be attached to the center of my body where I stand when playing and came up with 3 feet. (36")

So, I think the viewing distance will be okay.  I was worried that the screen may be to big (or too close) but I think it is going to work out just fine.
The TV mounting bracket is going to attach to the steel poles that are coming up out of the base - and the base is going to be bolted to the control panel.  (For support reasons)

More to come...

[Yenome]

so bolted to the control panel it self or the base of the pedestal, where it used to attach to the monitor base.

[dgrams2000]

Base, where the old unit would of been attached.
Handed off the poles to get drilled last night.  When I get them back, I should be able to attach the LED TV.  (Hopefully this weekend I can have a dry run and have everything set up.)

More pics

[Yenome]

awesome i was thinking something along those lines. cant wait to see it all up and running. id like to see some more info on the pc setup powering it all.

[dgrams2000]

Okay... been a busy weekend, but had time to work on the unit.
Its pretty much complete, minus the paint and possible trimming of the poles.

Pictures here:

Here are the computer specs that I am using.  (Cheap $200-$300 computer I got walmart maybe a year ago..)  way powerful enough for mame, pinball, daphne, anything or anything I throw at it...





Decided to put the computer inside the TV stand now, instead of putting the computer inside the CP.


Drilled a hole in the side so I can just push the power button (easy access)






Poles are back in, tv brackets mounted to steel poles...


Time to throw the tv on, after mounting the new cabinet to the old CP with a half dozen wood screws...








Now... to make some signage for the top of the tv.. or to cut the poles short... that is the question.
Then I just have to paint the box to be finished.

The wife is loving it (how much smaller the footprint is) and I think it is quite sexy so far...

[Yenome]

nice job.I use a PC with about the same specs for mine.I would say make a marquee to go up top. I might end up doing one like this cause of space restrictions.but first I would have to upgrade all other TVs to flat panel.

[chopperthedog]

I sorta did the same thing to my ghetto GT and gun game cab with a 32" Samsung tv. But my cab is no where near as cool and official as yours . But made a marquee box with speakers mounted on the side. Was also able to rout out an area in the base of the marquee to accommodate the LED bar for an aimtrak gun (you can see the glow of the infrared LED's just above the center of the screen). My marquee box size was determined by the already trimmed size of the "used" original marquee that I found online.


good day.

[DaOld Man]

Nice project.
How about for a name: "Back to the Past"?

[Yenome]

shame you dont have a mount that can rotate 90 degrees be awesome for the verticals. but im liking the look you got going on. now do you have mame set to use the full 16:9 or still just doing 4:3

[dgrams2000]

I sorta did the same thing to my ghetto GT and gun game cab with a 32" Samsung tv. But my cab is no where near as cool and official as yours . But made a marquee box with speakers mounted on the side. Was also able to rout out an area in the base of the marquee to accommodate the LED bar for an aimtrak gun (you can see the glow of the infrared LED's just above the center of the screen). My marquee box size was determined by the already trimmed size of the "used" original marquee that I found online.
good day.

Cool.  So that is an actual marquee inside?  I like the thought of having it lit up.. but I also like the thought of a thin sign.. to match the TV thickness.
Some kind of plastic etching maybe with a MAME logo, illuminated through the plastic, glowing around the edges would look kind of slick, but not sure where or how to pull anything like that off...  (Sweet looking DK game by the way... can't see much of it, but what I do see.. I like!)

Nice project.
How about for a name: "Back to the Past"?

Nah.. Not really feelin the 'Back to the...' names.

I am trying to think of something using the acronym LED (since the TV is LED) - E would be Emulation... just gotta figure out the rest.
Any ideas?  Large Emulation Display... lol  nah.
Next?

shame you dont have a mount that can rotate 90 degrees be awesome for the verticals. but im liking the look you got going on. now do you have mame set to use the full 16:9 or still just doing 4:3

Thought about rotating it, but the screen is big enough the way it is.. Don't want to make it too gawdy.. (or do I?  )
I took off the hardware strech, running in 75% scanlines and setting resolution to 320x200 on horizontal games.
Still doing 4:3 for the most part.  Capcom games and some others like Golden Tee have a more horizontal stretch to the screen.  It actually fits nice fully inside the widescreen. (see pic above)  Street Fighter and many others looks VERY sweet using the full screen.
Other games display more in a 4:3 perspective - Killer Instinct, Track and Field, Dragon's Lair, etc...  I don't want to stretch those out.  They look great when displayed in the correct original size.
The one thing I wish I could figure out is that I have a separate version of mame running Killer Instinct, and when I put the commands in for scanlines and effect, Mame crashes out and wont start.. not accepting those commands.  But that is a minor issue.
Got virtual pinball running... pretty slick... Got my SNES, Atari, Amiga, Zinc emus running as well and they look superb on the TV.

[Yenome]

im wondering why use a diff version for KI i play it on the latest and it seems to be fine. Are you using hlsl setting if so id like to see the config, i just started to play with hlsl for my lcd but i need to add a real card to the pc and not the onboard. even UMK3 gets stutters with hlsl on.

[dgrams2000]

im wondering why use a diff version for KI i play it on the latest and it seems to be fine. Are you using hlsl setting if so id like to see the config, i just started to play with hlsl for my lcd but i need to add a real card to the pc and not the onboard. even UMK3 gets stutters with hlsl on.

Maybe I'll try a newer version.
I honestly dont think I'm using anything newer than 2 years old.
The game play is as smooth as silk on the version that I'm using (whatever it is...) Not even sure what HLSL is.. lol

[Yenome]

which mame you using. i been playing with the idea of going back to 138 been using 148

[dgrams2000]

Using .143 for KI and KI2.
KI2 runs a tad slower, but I never played KI2 in the arcade to know what is really 'normal' for speed.
I normally just play 1 and not 2 anyways...

[Yenome]

i would think any dual core should be running ki2 just fine. are you using a 64bit version of mame. and told it to use multi cpus