money?

[Dawgz Rule]

Agree with Kahlid 100%.  It is all about experience and fit.  IT is still an industry where you have to start from the bottom and work your way up.  At least that is how it is on the ops side of the house.  All of my engineers started in a help desk role and broke out from there into security, infrastructure, etc.  If you're good, you can move up the ranks pretty quickly.

[ChadTower]

And yet even if you end up as director of IT you're still going to be resetting computers for people half the time.

In a large company all the Directors ever do is sign off on "emergency changes" that were not tested, verified, and the off hours support work is not arranged ahead of time.  They are the rubber stamp for "---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- we shouldn't do but will look good on upper management's status report if it works".

[daywane]

update:
well I started my new (old job really) I have forgotten much but it is coming back to me.
stress level non existent compared to roll-form. sane pay same shift same breaks even.
I am really enjoying watching my old boss struggle with out me. LOL
my head has stopped bobbing for the most part. I am staying on the pills for 6 more months
I still have a twitch in the neck ever so often and really over nothing. Things seem to be calming down and not dog pile on me and I hope to get back to my P90X soon.
I added a few pounds. 180 lbs. still a long way from my heaviest. 240lbs. Back to fat shredder diet. I will lose this stubborn 15 lbs.breaking the 200 lbs was hard. looks like I hit a wall again. Chin ups are really the only exercise I do.
I still think the planet would be better off with no cash value on a darn thing.
I really think we could all get along with out it. But it would take all to do it. A small group would never survive long. I also Think life would slow down.

We do not live the life that we were put on this planet to do.
I really think we out live our bodies now and really screwed up the order of life.
Mankind was meant to hunt and gather food.
well that is really my shrink talking but it does sound right to me

[shmokes]

Daywane, it's a good idea to hold off on accepting some idea if you cannot reconcile it with what you know is true. Money, as others have mentioned, serves a useful purpose. It allows you to trade your skills with people who don't need or want your skills. For example, maybe you raise cattle and the local bricklayer is a vegetarian. He doesn't want any beef, but since you can sell your product for money, and he can sell his service for money, you both have a common means of trade.

So, you can see how money serves a purpose. Before you conclude that life would be better without it you I really think you should decide how you can accomplish the same tasks better without money. Remember, money doesn't create wealth. In a world without money, if most the people want apples, and few people want peaches, the man with the apple orchard is richer than the man with the peach orchard, because the man with the apple orchard can trade his apples for more things than the man with the peach orchard. Apples are more valuable than peaches. It has nothing to do with money. Money simply facilitates trade. It makes it more efficient. It makes it so the local dairy farmer can buy apples even if the apple farmer is lactose intolerant.

[daywane]

every one keeps going to trade.
I mean no trade or anything. Just produce as we do today and go to walmart and get what you need.
PERIOD .
it seems so simple. I would work for free for that.
would you not?
think of ant's.
If you ask me that is what we are as a human race. nothing more than insects on this planet.

[shmokes]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

[shponglefan]

every one keeps going to trade.
I mean no trade or anything. Just produce as we do today and go to walmart and get what you need.
PERIOD .
it seems so simple. I would work for free for that.
would you not?
think of ant's.
If you ask me that is what we are as a human race. nothing more than insects on this planet.

If there was no trade, there would be no Walmart.  Or any other stores.  Or much of anything really. It would just be people living directly off the land with whatever you could grow, hunt or harvest.

You could do that if you really wanted.  But that would mean giving up a lot of what you have, including basics like running water, modern medicine, electricity, etc.

[daywane]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

communism? no kidding? I must look up communism.
It must really mean more than dictators?
I never really looked up the word.
let me check into this more.
I doubt if I mean communism becouse if we just produced and consumed as needed we would not need a goverment

[AtomSmasher]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

communism? no kidding? I must look up communism.
It must really mean more than dictators?
I never really looked up the word.
let me check into this more.
I doubt if I mean communism becouse if we just produced and consumed as needed we would not need a goverment

True communism doesn't have a dictator, it just never works out that way.  From Wikipedia:
Communism is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.

[daywane]

every one keeps going to trade.
I mean no trade or anything. Just produce as we do today and go to walmart and get what you need.
PERIOD .
it seems so simple. I would work for free for that.
would you not?
think of ant's.
If you ask me that is what we are as a human race. nothing more than insects on this planet.

If there was no trade, there would be no Walmart.  Or any other stores.  Or much of anything really. It would just be people living directly off the land with whatever you could grow, hunt or harvest.

You could do that if you really wanted.  But that would mean giving up a lot of what you have, including basics like running water, modern medicine, electricity, etc.

you still do not get what I mean.
why would there be no Walmart there is many now.
we have running water now  electricity, etc.
why do we have to walk away from them they do exist now.
just why do we fell the need for money to work. We could work just because it benefits all.
I do not value my worth in cash. even though I am worth a nice sum. it just seems pointless to me. It only make life hard.

[daywane]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

communism? no kidding? I must look up communism.
It must really mean more than dictators?
I never really looked up the word.
let me check into this more.
I doubt if I mean communism becouse if we just produced and consumed as needed we would not need a goverment

True communism doesn't have a dictator, it just never works out that way.  From Wikipedia:
Communism is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.

YEP THAT'S IT! BINGO
I fill dirty now but it is still my way of believing to be the right path.
I guess I am a  communist. I did look it up. and saw the exact thing. I do not like the word though. "communism" 

[shponglefan]

you still do not get what I mean.
why would there be no Walmart there is many now.

Walmart stores exist because they are part of a profit-driven corporation.  Without the incentive for profit, there would be no Walmarts.

we have running water now  electricity, etc.
why do we have to walk away from them they do exist now.

And we have those things largely because of the system under which we obtained them (free market economy).  Take away that, and things become a lot more challenging.  Who is going to supply the electricity if no one is going to pay for it?  No money = no private enterprise.  Government run would be the only solution.

But just ask North Korea how well that has worked out.

just why do we fell the need for money to work. We could work just because it benefits all.
I do not value my worth in cash. even though I am worth a nice sum. it just seems pointless to me. It only make life hard.

The reason we have money is primarily as a means of trade and also a store of value.  Without some form of common means of trade, trading for things becomes extremely innefficent.  If you study civilizations going back thousands of years, often they all developed some form of common basic currency to facilitate trade.

And you think life is hard with money?  Try life without it.

[daywane]

the most fun in life my family has had was at my poorest I made $8,000 that year.

[Vigo]

That's good that feel you don't need to rely on money as your measure of happiness. To me, that speaks volumes about your character. I guess as far as communism goes, it just doesn't work. There is a reason why 100,000+ people have been protesting in the streets of Hong Kong over the last week, and that is because Communism cannot survive on any larger scale without widespread oppression. You can of course join small communes. The Amish are a pretty good example. They all pitch in and build their own community, and only use and make money for when they need to deal with the outside world.

To think about the failure of large communism in a practical sense. You may be willing to work your job and get what you want from the store to survive. What happens to the guy next to you who sleeps on the job all day? He has no incentive to work harder because he will still have the same access to goods as you, no matter how poorly he does his job. Now what about the guy who cleans sewers all day, nobody wants that job, because without pay, there is no incentive to choose that job. So you have all the sewage people deciding they want to work at a ski resort instead. Things fall apart pretty quickly on a larger scale, so you end up needing an oppressive government telling everybody how to live their lives.

[daywane]

sadly that makes since.
I pray for a better system.
ours is just plain filled with corruption and greed. I am discusted

[Dawgz Rule]

you end up needing an oppressive government telling everybody how to live their lives.

or to purchase health insurance....

[shmokes]

you end up needing an oppressive government telling everybody how to live their lives.

or to purchase health insurance....

Now now . . . don't be rude. There are Obamacare threads in the politics forum. If you feel like taking a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, you may as well go to the toilet to do so.

As was mentioned, there are communes where you can practice communism, right here in America. Just a couple years ago I was the best man at a wedding in the town of Eskdale, Utah. I'd heard a lot about Eskdale, since my friend spent his junior high and high school years there, but I hadn't seen it until he got married. It was pretty great. And from an academic standpoint, it was utterly fascinating. The houses have no kitchens. The people have big, nice homes, but they build them without kitchens. Cos everyone eats together in the communal dining area. And they eat well, as they make and can all kinds of great stuff--jams, apple butter, fruits, vegetables, etc. They also have a dairy farm there (which is primarily how the commune makes money to deal with the outside world). And the people there don't earn a salary. They do various jobs (there's a school, for example, so there are school teachers), but most of them just work and live . . . no money (there are a few who work outside the commune and give the money to the commune, like an accountant who works in Salt Lake). Anyway, super nice people. Not at all creepy.

As Vigo explained, it doesn't work on a large scale. But it can work quite well on a smaller scale. You could always find something like Eskdale and try it out for real. I read a quote recently that I really liked: Have the courage to live the life you love. Or something to that effect. Anyway, why not give it a shot? Capitalism will be waiting for you out in the real world if it doesn't work out.

[kahlid74]

I always loved the idea and theory of Communism.  It seemed so romantic and made so much sense to me.  My 10th grade history teacher was hot however and those one on one sessions, whew!

Human nature then reared it's ugly head and any practical application of communism goes right out the window.

[Woodshop Flunky]

just why do we fell the need for money to work. We could work just because it benefits all.

This sort of system breaks down really fast since there are so many folks out there that won't even work for their own benefit.  These people certainly aren't going to work for the benefit of others. 

[Le Chuck]

As was mentioned, there are communes where you can practice communism, right here in America. Just a couple years ago I was the best man at a wedding in the town of Eskdale, Utah. I'd heard a lot about Eskdale, since my friend spent his junior high and high school years there, but I hadn't seen it until he got married. It was pretty great. And from an academic standpoint, it was utterly fascinating. The houses have no kitchens. The people have big, nice homes, but they build them without kitchens. Cos everyone eats together in the communal dining area. And they eat well, as they make and can all kinds of great stuff--jams, apple butter, fruits, vegetables, etc. They also have a dairy farm there (which is primarily how the commune makes money to deal with the outside world). And the people there don't earn a salary. They do various jobs (there's a school, for example, so there are school teachers), but most of them just work and live . . . no money (there are a few who work outside the commune and give the money to the commune, like an accountant who works in Salt Lake). Anyway, super nice people. Not at all creepy.

As Vigo explained, it doesn't work on a large scale. But it can work quite well on a smaller scale. You could always find something like Eskdale and try it out for real. I read a quote recently that I really liked: Have the courage to live the life you love. Or something to that effect. Anyway, why not give it a shot? Capitalism will be waiting for you out in the real world if it doesn't work out.

That sounds like a great way to spend a couple of years.  I don't think I would want to unplug for good but when the boys are old enough to get something out of it I think it would be a great lesson to spend two years or so in a community like that.  My main concern would be employ-ability after a two year sabbatical.  Thanks for the post shmokes.   

[Mysterioii]

With communism everybody wants a Ferrari and everybody gets a used turnip cart.  If everybody busted ass to the best of their ability it might make sense, but in actuality it doesn't work out that way.

Now if you're talking about a VOLUNTARY community like was described that might work ok... until the kids want more...  But when you take a larger society and impose communism upon it... nobody's particularly happy.

[shmokes]

until the kids want more... 

Obviously this sort of thing would vary from community to community (commune to commune?), but at Eskdale the kids are encouraged to go to college after high school, just like any other kids. Which obviously means leaving Eskdale since there are obviously no universities there. And there doesn't appear to be any particular pressure to return. I'm friends with a half-dozen people from the community who were born there or who lived there for a substantial portion of their childhoods, and all of them love the place. About 1/3 of them I'm sure will live there permanently. 1/3 will never go back except to visit. And the other 1/3 . . . who knows.

So . . . if the kids want more, capitalism is waiting for them right outside the city limits. Well . . . the place is in the middle of nowhere (very beautiful nowhere, mind you), so it's a couple hours drive to a decent city. But still, it's not the type of thing that a person would need to escape. You can just leave anytime, get a job, go to university. And when you're tired of capitalism, they're happy to have you bring any useful skills back to the commune, so long as you're ready to give up any property advantages your capitalistic exploits have brought you. You can't, like, come in and build a mansion with a swimming pool and hot tub, etc. Everything is shared. If you want a bigger home, the community has to agree that you need a bigger home. All for one and one for all. Or at least, one for all. 

For what it's worth, from the brief time I spent there, I'd say the people living there are very, very happy.

[shponglefan]

I pray for a better system.
ours is just plain filled with corruption and greed. I am discusted

The issue isn't the system.  The issue is people.  And people aren't changing any time soon.

[Dawgz Rule]

Pretty cool view via Bing but otherwise couldn't find any photos....

Long link shortened

[ark_ader]

Daywane, it's a good idea to hold off on accepting some idea if you cannot reconcile it with what you know is true. Money, as others have mentioned, serves a useful purpose. It allows you to trade your skills with people who don't need or want your skills. For example, maybe you raise cattle and the local bricklayer is a vegetarian. He doesn't want any beef, but since you can sell your product for money, and he can sell his service for money, you both have a common means of trade.

So, you can see how money serves a purpose. Before you conclude that life would be better without it you I really think you should decide how you can accomplish the same tasks better without money. Remember, money doesn't create wealth. In a world without money, if most the people want apples, and few people want peaches, the man with the apple orchard is richer than the man with the peach orchard, because the man with the apple orchard can trade his apples for more things than the man with the peach orchard. Apples are more valuable than peaches. It has nothing to do with money. Money simply facilitates trade. It makes it more efficient. It makes it so the local dairy farmer can buy apples even if the apple farmer is lactose intolerant.

I have read that several times and I could not agree more.

Kudos Shmokes. 

[ChadTower]

...the local dairy farmer trades aged manure for apples...   

[daywane]

...the local dairy farmer trades aged manure for apples...   

That happens here also. stinks to high heaven when its is sprayed on crops!

[Samstag]