money?

[daywane]

first of all. I need to say I am recovering from a nervous break down.
but I do to have say a thought hit my brain I can not shake.

This might sound stupid at first. But think hard on it.

Question: As a human race , why do we need money?
why can we not produce and consume as needed?
and take as needed.

I see money only as a social status  

[SNAAKE]

money is useless. you should paypal me all your moneyz right now

[daywane]

 I understand the the joke and chuckled but I am serious .
why do we need to be paid?
why can we not produce and consume as needed?

[MonMotha]

I think the answer you're probably looking for is the exact same reason why capitalism is one of the most functional (even if not "the best" and certainly not the most equitable) economic systems come up with so far: people are greedy.

In general, people aren't willing to do something for nothing.  Some people exhibit this more openly than others.  For example, some people who are "really greedy" are unwilling to do even the most basic of humanitarian tasks, such as holding a door for a pregnant women, without some form of compensation which they may overtly even ask for.  Others are more subtle: they may be willing to do "favors", especially for "friends" on the sole grounds of "tit for tat".  Basically, they expect to be repaid with a similar degree of thought or useful activity at some later, perhaps undefined time.

And hence we have arrived at a barter economy.  You may need some widget designed.  I happen to design widgets.  I'm willing to design a widget for you, but I expect something in return.  If I know you, trust you, am friends with you, etc., I may be willing to do things informally e.g. I'll design your widget now, and, some time in the future, maybe you'll help me repaint my house or bring some food home for me.  However, if I don't know you well, I'll probably want to have at least the terms up front, and I'll probably want things resolved in short order e.g. I'll design your widget now and in return you agree to paint my house in full the weekend after I complete the design and deliver it.

Ah, but we have a problem.  Suppose you are really only good at painting houses (you may be REALLY good at it - it's your specialty - but you're not good at much else), but my house was just painted last month.  It probably doesn't need painted again.  Likewise, I'm the best widget designer in town.  You'd be a fool to have somebody design you a widget based solely on their need for having their house painted.  You have a couple choices: you can either work out some convoluted, multi-party trade, or everybody can generally agree on some neutral arbiter of "favors owed".  That neutral arbiter is money.

And hence we arrive at a capitalist/market driven economy.  You can efficiently trade goods and services using this neutral representation of value and wealth that is money.  Your employer will happily accept service from you ("work") and give you money.  That's fine by you because your only other option would be to have him give you the product of your services right back (since that's all he has, absent other trades), and that's probably not very useful to you.  You can take your money and give it to someone else in exchange for whatever the two of you agree on.  You've removed the need to involve everybody in a single transaction just to trade arbitrary goods and services.

Of course, if nobody was greedy, this wouldn't be needed.  We could do everything on the informal basis.  The problem is that if you're informal, sometimes you'll get screwed over.  I might design that widget, and you might use/sell them to people in exchange for services/goods they can provide, but you may welch on your obligation to me indefinitely.  If you're really a friend, I probably don't care a lot, because I value our friendship for other reasons, but if you're just some Joe, I'm probably pretty miffed that you didn't do anything in return.  And chances are, if you're greedy, you'll welch on any obligation you can.  But if we have money, I get paid at the end, and that's that.

[RayB]

short version: there are always ---uvulas--- to ruin it for the rest of us.

[danny_galaga]

Truth is, beyond the stone age, almost no single person can do everything needed to participate in society. For instance, hunting, baking bread, mining copper, making tools/weapons, stone masonry, farming. Once you get to the Bronze age, you needed a village full of specialists. It's no co-incidence that a common means of exchange turned up roughly with the Bronze age...

In reality, to do what you ask, Daywayne, everyone would need to go back to the Stone Age. People have tried to have their cake and eat it but have always failed. State Communism, for instance. Or hippy communes. All noble ideas, but doomed to fail with the modern trappings we think we need. And as Monmotha says- we are greedy.

Individually, you can live a much more ascetic life if you really wanted. A co-worker has just quit and moved to Sri Lanka. He's moved to a quiet fishing village, that gets a few tourists. He has a bit of cash, and is into lots of outdoors activities. He is going to teach tourists that standy-uppy kayaky thing that is all the rage at the moment. $20 a pop. Where $20 will keep him going for a week very easily. One lesson a week, fish for some of his meals. Idyllic, if you can relinquish most of the modern trappings. He won't be a total monk, but by ---fudgesicle--- will he be happier than you or I!

[daywane]

I agree. I got pissed at work and tried my very best to get fired. The company sent me to a shrink.
every body asked me what I planed to do if I got fired.
answer: Hunt Fish and Grow

[daywane]

just as a side note to all my friends. all heck with it. to all the world.
do not hold all emotions bottled up inside you. you will snap. and if you step out side of your brain it is very hard to step back in.Zoloft helps but the side effects are not fun .

I guess you could call me a bobble head because that is what I am now.

[CCM]

I agree. I got pissed at work and tried my very best to get fired. The company sent me to a shrink.
every body asked me what I planed to do if I got fired.
answer: Hunt Fish and Grow

Why go thru all the trouble of trying to get fired?  Why not just quit if your job makes you so miserable?

[Le Chuck]

Why are you trying to get fired?  Quit.  Stop wasting your company money.  Man up and quit.  

You can live money-less.  Don't expect or ask that I do that but you can by all means.  If you are willing to forgo all luxury then you should be able to execute this lifestyle from anywhere.  Hell, you can probably still document your journey on here providing you are squatting close enough to a town with a library for free innerweb service and bathroom whore-baths.      

[drventure]

Why go thru all the trouble of trying to get fired?  Why not just quit if your job makes you so miserable?

+1

Stay there long enough to find something you like, then walk in, quit and move on.

[ChadTower]

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

[Malenko]

hate to say it, I agree with jim.

Also think of money as a universal IOU that you can use on anyone.

[Samstag]

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

You don't need unemployment if you give up money.

[lordnacho]

Last person I heard question currency, they went and shot a senator.  Please continue the shrink

[whammoed]

Last person I heard question currency, they went and shot a senator.  Please continue the shrink

My 7 year old daughter asked the same question the other day.   Better keep an eye on her.   

[ChadTower]

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

You don't need unemployment if you give up money.

Do you have another viable reason for acting up to get fired instead of just walking away?

[lordnacho]

Last person I heard question currency, they went and shot a senator.  Please continue the shrink

My 7 year old daughter asked the same question the other day.   Better keep an eye on her.   

I was talking about my 3 year old. 

[drventure]

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

You can't file for unemployment if you were fired, except in peculiar circumstances. Ok. Strike that. You CAN file, but you likely will be denied.

Here's some details.
http://unemploymenthandbook.com/unemployment-articles/all-about-unemployment/181-can-you-get-unemployment-if-you-get-fired

Of course, laws vary state to state, but generally, if you TRY to get fired, and then get fired, you could have a tough time getting unemployment payments.

It's almost always better to stay employed, find something else, then leave as amicably as possible. Though, I'll admit, doing otherwise sure would feel better sometimes 

[ChadTower]

In some states you get paid first and then if you are denied you go into arbitration.  That process can take a long time.

I bet he's Union, too, which means he couldn't be fired.  He'd have to be laid off after a negotiation process with the Union reps.  That's probably why he wasn't fired in the first place.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

Money ..... It rules my life to a level I cannot even begin to comprehend. I hate it, and everyone hates me for it.

A few years ago I posted on here about the job I was doing, driving 120 miles each way to work and back every day just to make the mortgage. I got up at 4am every day and I never saw my wife and kids. life was ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Fast forward to today. my mortage is 4x what it was when I made that post. I'm a vice president in one of the worlds most successful investment banks and I paid more in tax last year than the average gross income. I spend 23hrs a day shitting myself that my bubble is going to burst.

My brain is fried and all I do is work. (I doubt anyone noticed I never post here anymore) I never play my arcade, I just work in an attempt to cling onto the totally unsustainable, unrealistic plastic reality I have worked myself into.

I have no idea how to hit the eject button because my family just accepts this as normal.

I saw that post on here about the guy who lived in the middle of nowhere on his own with no debt, no bank breathing down his neck and thought "you lucky bastard!"

[Dawgz Rule]

Always file for unemployment.  More often than not, employers will pay it just because it isn't worth the hassle to fight it.  It isn't as simple as just being able to deny the claim.

[Samstag]

Money ..... It rules my life to a level I cannot even begin to comprehend. I hate it, and everyone hates me for it.

A few years ago I posted on here about the job I was doing, driving 120 miles each way to work and back every day just to make the mortgage. I got up at 4am every day and I never saw my wife and kids. life was ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Fast forward to today. my mortage is 4x what it was when I made that post. I'm a vice president in one of the worlds most successful investment banks and I paid more in tax last year than the average gross income. I spend 23hrs a day shitting myself that my bubble is going to burst.

My brain is fried and all I do is work. (I doubt anyone noticed I never post here anymore) I never play my arcade, I just work in an attempt to cling onto the totally unsustainable, unrealistic plastic reality I have worked myself into.

I have no idea how to hit the eject button because my family just accepts this as normal.

I saw that post on here about the guy who lived in the middle of nowhere on his own with no debt, no bank breathing down his neck and thought "you lucky bastard!"

You might want to check this out.  It's a little disorganized and way too extreme for most people, but the basic principles are sound.  With a high-earning job you're exactly the kind of person who can benefit from the idea.

The gist: Get off the lifestyle inflation treadmill where your spending keeps increasing with your income.  Learn to be happy with less stuff, save a ton of money, and lose your dependence on the job you hate.

[danny_galaga]

I saw that post on here about the guy who lived in the middle of nowhere on his own with no debt, no bank breathing down his neck and thought "you lucky bastard!"

His last post on facebook was about a month ago. This is all he posted. I'm guessing it's his new 'front' yard 

[Malenko]

its practically impossible to "cold turkey" your debt. instead of getting a really nice car, I got a base model Scion tC. Instead of going out to eat 4 or 5 times a week, I grocery shop and eat left overs, all the extra money goes towards my car payments and mortgage. The only expensive thing Ive bought in the last few years is the engagement ring for my girl, and I all my overtime money goes towards paying that ring off too.  I'd rather spend my money on tangible things instead of interest.

[kahlid74]

The idea of a "money/currency"-less society is a novel one at best.  Human nature prevents this from ever occurring.

[daywane]

no I am not union.
I  make 18.01 a hr. factory. I make air-condition tube( aluminum)
I am a roll form operator.
Problem: I am the most qualified person on the floor. I have mastered 7 machines in my department. all others except 1 I have personally trained. but each only knows 1 machine.
For 5 years solid I have done MAJOR amounts of over time. so much it has torn my family apart. My 17 year old daughter left my wife and I. I Just can not talk about it.

Work has been making me cover all other workers but other workers can not cover me.
the company posted a Tech Job in my department and a line leader.
I am a machinist not really a people person.

There is no question in the plant the job was mine. The tech. job

another person got the line leader job and the company decided they do not need a tech and asked me to train my BOSS!

I still refuse. They have decided to move me back to my old job in power steering.
still same pay grade and still day shift. MUCH less STRESS.

unemployment was on my mind but in my head I did not quit. The company quit on me.
If I quit my wife would be upset. if I got fired I would get more sex

[Mysterioii]

haha man, that last line is priceless...   

I know what ya mean.... in the past when I was single, and I'd had enough at the place I'd worked, I just quit one day.  Didn't even LOOK for a few months....  I hadn't taken a vacation in 4 years so I was like "to heck with it, I've got enough saved up, I'm gonna relax for a while".  Yeah it kinda sucked blowing through savings like that, but man was it a load off my back.  You don't get opportunities like that too often.

Now, I'm married and have an awesome 2-year-old little girl.  Even when things blow at my current job, it's just not the same situation as before.  Really would need to have something else lined up, can't be as impulsive as when you're on your own...

[daywane]

what makes my situation different  is I am dept free.
I own my home and cars.
no credit eather working on that
last look I was 690 credit score

[rooter]

Play a game of Civilizations and you will see how money affects the world.

The reason we use money is that most people can't build a house on their own , grow their own food , and make their own clothes.  Spending half your week bartering for what you need is a huge waste of time and could leave you really hungry.  What happens when you need medicine?  Even if you can do those things, you will need to move to a country that doesn't have property taxes. 

Is this a serious question?  I feel like I am explaining this to a 3rd grader.

[CheffoJeffo]

Is this a serious question?  I feel like I am explaining this to a 3rd grader.

That's alright, you are explaining it as if you were a 3rd grader.

 

[ark_ader]

I think we played this game before Daywane.  You were mouthing off at your work before and I got upset with you about losing your job.  Nothing changed eh?

I haven't forgotten about your little dog.  Keep that avatar in your profile please.  Mine has gone up too.

I would love a nervous breakdown, but I'm way too busy.  Maybe later. 

Off topic question:  does oral cancer hurt initially?

[daywane]

I think we played this game before Daywane.  You were mouthing off at your work before and I got upset with you about losing your job.  Nothing changed eh?




I haven't forgotten about your little dog.  Keep that avatar in your profile please.  Mine has gone up too.

I would love a nervous breakdown, but I'm way too busy.  Maybe later.  

Off topic question:  does oral cancer hurt initially?

"As you can see I did not get fired. I tried my best short of beating the crap out of 6 people I would have loved to do" and deserve.
I went another tactic.

I went in on a Saturday morning and soon realized I was the only one in roll form.
I was in to run only 1 machine.

well what the heck one last HOO- RA I decided and fired all of them up!
all of them at the same time? no. that would be to mush at first.
fired up 1 machine got its  rhythm in my head, then the next till I had a rhythm of each going I did this to all and really was dancing to the beat.
I also did 3 change overs
189% for the day over 7,000 good parts. no scrap!

I printed this out many times and signed and stated yes I am that good and you asses will never see it again.
OH LORD IT'S HARD TO BE HUMBLE.
BLANK YOU!

well I did not get fired?
they sent me to a shrink. I finely told the shrink since I will not train any more as a grade 7 and I will not train a grade 8 I will let6 roll form fail, and then the Japanese will come to me.

so they did. we are pulling me out of roll form and we are now going to see if I am right?

[DaveMMR]

Have you ever thought that maybe it's time for a complete career change?  If you can live on a bit less money, start really plotting out what you love to do and turn in into a paying gig.

(I know it's easier said than done but something to ponder....)

[AtomSmasher]

Have you ever thought that maybe it's time for a complete career change?  If you can live on a bit less money, start really plotting out what you love to do and turn in into a paying gig.

(I know it's easier said than done but something to ponder....)

Heh, reminds me of this girl I dated for a short time.  She had a Bachelors degree and had a job that was exactly what that degree was made for.  She told me she hated her job, so she was going to get a Masters degree in the same field in order to get a better job.  I asked her which job would a Masters degree open up for her and she said "I don't know, I haven't really thought about it."  I found this to be kind of absurd.
Like DaveMMR said, first figure out what you want to do, then figure out how to get there, not the other way around.

[ark_ader]

Getting a masters in the same field is not as absurd as you think.  It is a natural progression that can open doors to management.  Also study is much much easier.

You would be surprised how a masters degree can open doors, in other fields of work.  Once I finish my Honors, I do the extra year for my masters in the same field.  If my employer will pay for it, then a doctorate.  I can teach, or work in the private sector or run my own business.  Just like your old girlfriend situation, you just don't know.  Not in today's world.  Anything is possible.

You don't need to think about it too much.  Most of it is pretty easy, and if you like writing a lot, it can be fun too.

Like DaveMMR said, first figure out what you want to do, then figure out how to get there, not the other way around.

I agree with this if you are just starting out in education.  No point if you are on the ladder already.  It is a waste of time and money.

Besides the US education system is too expensive and still not the best, not by a long shot.   

The financial burden can be a real monkey on your back, especially when you are qualified and still unemployed two years after.

[danny_galaga]

no I am not union.
I  make 18.01 a hr. factory. I make air-condition tube( aluminum)
I am a roll form operator.
Problem: I am the most qualified person on the floor. I have mastered 7 machines in my department. all others except 1 I have personally trained. but each only knows 1 machine.
For 5 years solid I have done MAJOR amounts of over time. so much it has torn my family apart. My 17 year old daughter left my wife and I. I Just can not talk about it.

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude. Move to Australia! I'm a postman. I earn $22.40 an hour. After ONE year at most jobs in Australia, you are entitled to 4 weeks leave a year. That's pretty crap they treat you like that with all your qualification and experience with their equipment...

Have you ever thought that maybe it's time for a complete career change?  If you can live on a bit less money, start really plotting out what you love to do and turn in into a paying gig.

(I know it's easier said than done but something to ponder....)

This is what my workmate did. It happened in stages. He used to run a car rental place. Pressure became too much. Then he became a postman, less money, but less hassle. He is very laid back, so they used to (I think the saying goes) 'ride his ass' all the time. But it's damn hard to get fired at Australia Post. In all his time on earth though, he's travelled. A couple of years ago, he discovered Sri Lanka, the part that until recently was over run by Tamil Tigers. So that was a natural third step on his road to fulfilment. Hasn't been an easy journey. He went through a messy divorce about 5 years ago for instance...

[DaveMMR]

I have a friend whose father's career change meant leaving his professional job to sell fishing reels on the internet (eBay, etc.). From what he describes, he makes some pretty decent money fixing those things up (which he loves to do anyway) and loves chatting with his customers who share a similar passion. That man does not stop smiling. From what my friend tells me, that's a complete 180 for him.

[ark_ader]

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude. Move to Australia! I'm a postman. I earn $22.40 an hour. After ONE year at most jobs in Australia, you are entitled to 4 weeks leave a year. That's pretty crap they treat you like that with all your qualification and experience with their equipment...

Well where Daywane works, there are probably not big spiders, poisonous snakes, bugs, malaria.  I'm sure it is fun walking around in 100+ degree weather with a nice and heavy pack on your back, or sloshing through the flood season in your waders.  I'm sure you have other pitfalls that you fail to mention, but $22.40 sounds like pretty good danger money to me.  I would need an air conditioned postal van first, and I would want a nice senior logistics position while you are at it. 

Sign me up!   

[Blanka]

Money is only there to pay Pharmaceutical companies and Doctors. All other stuff we need is trade-able.

[danny_galaga]

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude. Move to Australia! I'm a postman. I earn $22.40 an hour. After ONE year at most jobs in Australia, you are entitled to 4 weeks leave a year. That's pretty crap they treat you like that with all your qualification and experience with their equipment...

Well where Daywane works, there are probably not big spiders, poisonous snakes, bugs, malaria.  I'm sure it is fun walking around in 100+ degree weather with a nice and heavy pack on your back, or sloshing through the flood season in your waders.  I'm sure you have other pitfalls that you fail to mention, but $22.40 sounds like pretty good danger money to me.  I would need an air conditioned postal van first, and I would want a nice senior logistics position while you are at it. 

Sign me up!   

No malaria in Australia, or rabies either, which can't be said for your neck of the woods ;-)

This is average weather for Brisbane, where I live



We ride motorbikes to deliver mail here. Also, there are about as many taipans in Brisbane as there are rattlesnakes in Los Angeles. The pitfall I didn't mention of the major floods we had last year is not something exclusive to Australia. I believe it's possible to have floods in the US too.

I think the movie Crocodile Dundee has a lot to answer for if that's how you imagine a city in Australia to be. There are quite a few North Americans living in Australia, one's who were no doubt a little more adventurous than you. In fact, just at my branch, there are two Americans and a Canadian, out of a total of maybe 40 staff. No North American who has moved to Australia who I have ever met has wanted to go back.

There are pitfalls to Australia of course. Manufacturing is drying up, which is what Daywane is involved in. And real estate is overpriced.

Now all the jesting is out of the way, Daywane, you have no debts. You own your own house. Could you get a part time job that pays ok? Maybe even where you work? Part time still means more sex at home (",)

[kahlid74]

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude. Move to Australia! I'm a postman. I earn $22.40 an hour. After ONE year at most jobs in Australia, you are entitled to 4 weeks leave a year. That's pretty crap they treat you like that with all your qualification and experience with their equipment...

Well where Daywane works, there are probably not big spiders, poisonous snakes, bugs, malaria.  I'm sure it is fun walking around in 100+ degree weather with a nice and heavy pack on your back, or sloshing through the flood season in your waders.  I'm sure you have other pitfalls that you fail to mention, but $22.40 sounds like pretty good danger money to me.  I would need an air conditioned postal van first, and I would want a nice senior logistics position while you are at it. 

Sign me up!   

No malaria in Australia, or rabies either, which can't be said for your neck of the woods ;-)

When I saw Malaria I lol'd, and was going to respond and then I saw the posts author was Ark and was like oh, NM.

I don't have very much perspective for the OP here.  I've worked in my current field for close to 9 years now.  I hold a BA and won't look to go back for my masters for at least another 10 years.  Any issues I've had with employers or pay I've solved by finding a new job.  I've never had a problem finding a new job even in heavily saturated markets (I work in IT).  I was the architect of infrastructure for several DC's at manufacturing companies a few years ago and I still hold it as one of the humblest experiences of my life.  Manufacturing is a different world entirely.

At the end of the day, you need to find something to do where you won't dread going to work in the morning.  Certainly there are days you may not feel like it, but you need to be able to get up and feel confident in yourself and the road map you've laid out for yourself.  I'm personally not a fan of getting fired/going on unemployment for the hell of it nor am I am fan of quitting just because without something else lined up.  I will however say that in light of the situation the OP is in, perhaps quitting and taking some time to look at the big picture might be beneficial.

[Dervacumen]

We don't need money, but until a better alternative is on the horizon it's not going anywhere.
I don't think now would be a good time for a career change.  I've been looking for work for almost a year and a half.  Well over a thousand resumes.  Good qualifications.  Tried to apply to pick cherries and was turned down because I don't have three years of cherry picking experience.  At least I have other projects keeping me busy and bringing in some dough.  I wouldn't mind a job for $18 an hour in town here.  Better than $450 a week.
Stay working while you find something else.

[ark_ader]

When I saw Malaria I lol'd, and was going to respond and then I saw the posts author was Ark and was like oh, NM.

I comments are not getting you to respond.  Oh Well.

I've worked in my current field for close to 9 years now.  I hold a BA and won't look to go back for my masters for at least another 10 years.  Any issues I've had with employers or pay I've solved by finding a new job.  I've never had a problem finding a new job even in heavily saturated markets (I work in IT).

 

That is nice to know, and I am glad it is working for you, but today to work in IT (25 years experience helps) you need at least a BSc or a M.Sc, and hold some certifications.  I'm studying for my Prince 2 practitioner exam, hoping it will give me a better position for a teaching post.  Education is the key for success for any decent job, especially when you competing against all the new kids fresh out of Uni.  BA's in IT unless it is design doesn't get you very far.

[ChadTower]

That is nice to know, and I am glad it is working for you, but today to work in IT (25 years experience helps) you need at least a BSc or a M.Sc, and hold some certifications. 

 

I work at a Fortune 25 company in a senior IT role.  I would be shocked if I learned that 10% of our IT employees had a Masters degree in anything.  Most of them don't have a Bachelor's and don't know much more than the very specific skills needed to perform their role (if they know that much).  We're talking a company subject to every financial, health, and retail regulation in North America.  We operate in all time zones from Hawaii to Puerto Rico.

You do not need a Bachelor's or a Master's to get an IT job.  It helps but there are probably more people without them than there are with them.

[drventure]

You do not need a Bachelor's or a Master's to get an IT job.  It helps but there are probably more people without them than there are with them.

+1

I think it helps if you're looking to get into mid-senior level software dev roles, but there's lot of entry level dev and general IT positions floating around right now. You need to be able to demonstrate reasonable competence with PCs, networks etc, but even then, in many cases, you may not even need that.

[ChadTower]

I wouldn't trust some of the people I work with to competently make me a sandwich.

[AtomSmasher]

I wouldn't trust some of the people I work with to competently make me a sandwich.

It's been my experience this is the case with anyone who's gotten a phd (at least with the dozen or so people I work with who have phd's).  It's seems getting this degree changes engineers so they no longer are able to do anything practical (like make a sandwich) and spend all their time in the theoretical.  Instead of spending a month crunching the numbers to find out if this ratio of peanut butter and jelly is optimal (only to find out your numbers are wrong anyways), just take a minute to make the sandwich now and find out right away.

[Dawgz Rule]

You do not need a Bachelor's or a Master's to get an IT job.  It helps but there are probably more people without them than there are with them.

+1  I have been working in IT management for years and most of the people that work for me do not have a degree.  I do believe that a degree and/or certifications can help get you in the door for an entry level IT position but most advancement seems to be driven by performance and skills that are acquired on the job. 

[flashiv]

I wouldn't trust some of the people I work with to competently make me a sandwich.

It's been my experience this is the case with anyone who's gotten a phd (at least with the dozen or so people I work with who have phd's).  It's seems getting this degree changes engineers so they no longer are able to do anything practical (like make a sandwich) and spend all their time in the theoretical.  Instead of spending a month crunching the numbers to find out if this ratio of peanut butter and jelly is optimal (only to find out your numbers are wrong anyways), just take a minute to make the sandwich now and find out right away.

My fiancee has a PHD and she makes a damn good PB and J sandwich.

[daywane]

my wife is a house wife and she makes darn good   

[danny_galaga]

my wife is a house wife and she makes darn good   

Atom, what's with the phd bashing. If you go for a phd, there is a very specific goal in mind. Only guy I know who has one, is a physicist. His thesis was on mapping a periodic table of anti-matter. How on earth could he forgo a phd in lieu of the practical? Practical what?

IT and phds, not much help for Daywayne at the moment anyway...

[AtomSmasher]

my wife is a house wife and she makes darn good    

Atom, what's with the phd bashing. If you go for a phd, there is a very specific goal in mind. Only guy I know who has one, is a physicist. His thesis was on mapping a periodic table of anti-matter. How on earth could he forgo a phd in lieu of the practical? Practical what?

IT and phds, not much help for Daywayne at the moment anyway...

This is just my experience with anyone who has a phd.  I'll give an example of practical:  We had a guy with a phd in Nuclear Engineering (or something like that) and he kept complaining about banging his knuckles every time he unplugged these connectors.  I then thought about how I did it (use my thumb to push off my other hand) and explained how I did it to him.  He said "These things should of come with instruction manuals."  

This is a small trivial case, but it happens on a weekly basis.  I can give you far worse cases, but you'd need to sign an NDA for the details, such as where a problem researched for a year by one of our phd's, was solved by someone with a Masters in less then a week simply because he ran a bunch of experiments instead of doing the math and crunching the numbers (keep in mind the guy with the phd was completely against running the experiments).

I'm sure it's not everyone with a phd, but it definitely is the case with all of them that I've worked with.  There's actually one guy at our company who is about to get his phd and we often make the joke that hopefully he doesn't get ruined once that happens  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're stupid, not at all, they're very smart people (mostly).  It's just that all of their intelligence is focused on the theoretical.

[ark_ader]

That is nice to know, and I am glad it is working for you, but today to work in IT (25 years experience helps) you need at least a BSc or a M.Sc, and hold some certifications. 

 

I work at a Fortune 25 company in a senior IT role.  I would be shocked if I learned that 10% of our IT employees had a Masters degree in anything.  Most of them don't have a Bachelor's and don't know much more than the very specific skills needed to perform their role (if they know that much).  We're talking a company subject to every financial, health, and retail regulation in North America.  We operate in all time zones from Hawaii to Puerto Rico.

You do not need a Bachelor's or a Master's to get an IT job.  It helps but there are probably more people without them than there are with them.

I'm not talking about Walmart technical support.  Go out and have a look at the requirements of some of the developer positions, the Project Management positions, etc. 

I work at a Fortune 25 company in a senior IT role.

Looking at your post count and how much work a valuable senior IT <insert title here>  at a Fortune 25 company does on average.  And your point is? 

[drventure]

Go out and have a look at the requirements of some of the developer positions, the Project Management positions, etc.  

True, but be careful of putting too much stock into posted position requirements. I've seen many instances where the posted requirements were cobbled up by some HR person who had no idea what the actual requirements for the position really were.

One example (only slightly related, granted...) is that every single telecommute gig I've landed (5 over the last 12 years, one lasting 5 years) didn't even mention telecommuting as an option in the posted reqs.

Another posted for "7+ years exp with multithreaded dev" when, once I talked to the actual hiring manager, what they really were looking for was someone who knew the basics of multithreaded work and could come up to speed quickly on their particular library inhouse.

Often, at least in tech work, you have to read between the lines.

[danny_galaga]

my wife is a house wife and she makes darn good    

Atom, what's with the phd bashing. If you go for a phd, there is a very specific goal in mind. Only guy I know who has one, is a physicist. His thesis was on mapping a periodic table of anti-matter. How on earth could he forgo a phd in lieu of the practical? Practical what?

IT and phds, not much help for Daywayne at the moment anyway...

This is just my experience with anyone who has a phd.  I'll give an example of practical:  We had a guy with a phd in Nuclear Engineering (or something like that) and he kept complaining about banging his knuckles every time he unplugged these connectors.  I then thought about how I did it (use my thumb to push off my other hand) and explained how I did it to him.  He said "These things should of come with instruction manuals."  

This is a small trivial case, but it happens on a weekly basis.  I can give you far worse cases, but you'd need to sign an NDA for the details, such as where a problem researched for a year by one of our phd's, was solved by someone with a Masters in less then a week simply because he ran a bunch of experiments instead of doing the math and crunching the numbers (keep in mind the guy with the phd was completely against running the experiments).

I'm sure it's not everyone with a phd, but it definitely is the case with all of them that I've worked with.  There's actually one guy at our company who is about to get his phd and we often make the joke that hopefully he doesn't get ruined once that happens  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're stupid, not at all, they're very smart people (mostly).  It's just that all of their intelligence is focused on the theoretical.

Ok, but you make it sound like getting the phd makes them dumber. I'm pretty sure your knuckle busting friend was a clutz BEFORE he got his phd.

My phd friend loves cricket and hockey. He captained a hockey team. Once he got his phd, I'm pretty certain he was still good at playing hockey...

[AtomSmasher]

I'm pretty sure your knuckle busting friend was a clutz BEFORE he got his phd.

That very well could be, all I know is I wouldn't trust anyone I know with a phd to make me a sandwich

[MonMotha]

To get things done, a committee should consist of at most 3 individuals, two of them absent.

[ChadTower]

I'm not talking about Walmart technical support.  Go out and have a look at the requirements of some of the developer positions, the Project Management positions, etc. 

I'm not talking about Walmart tech support either.

True, but be careful of putting too much stock into posted position requirements. I've seen many instances where the posted requirements were cobbled up by some HR person who had no idea what the actual requirements for the position really were.

^^^^ This.  After 17 years in software development and IT I can tell you the above is 100% true.  The bigger the organization the further the HR person is from the actual jobs.  They often don't know a damn thing about what any of the terms, certifications, or technologies mean.  It's very common to get an HR person that will mark a candidate off because he said he has "10 years of enterprise java but has never used Maven" where Maven isn't even really a job requirement.  Then we end up with a resume with only 1 year of java but claims to be a Maven expert presented as the best candidate. 

I have lost count of the amount of times someone has been brought in with a long list of certifications that may as well have been printed on toilet paper because the guy has never been in an actual corporate production environment.  Who cares if you took a 3 week class on Server 2003 when you don't understand the functional differences between 32 and 64 bit operating systems?  I swear if I have to explain to one more MS Certified Admin WHY a given application platform should run on a 64 bit OS I'm going to punch him.  One would think that a guy making 6 figures would just look at the Architecture Document, see 64 bit OS, see the runtime resource requirements, and understand.

[kahlid74]

When I saw Malaria I lol'd, and was going to respond and then I saw the posts author was Ark and was like oh, NM.

I comments are not getting you to respond.  Oh Well.

I've worked in my current field for close to 9 years now.  I hold a BA and won't look to go back for my masters for at least another 10 years.  Any issues I've had with employers or pay I've solved by finding a new job.  I've never had a problem finding a new job even in heavily saturated markets (I work in IT).

 

That is nice to know, and I am glad it is working for you, but today to work in IT (25 years experience helps) you need at least a BSc or a M.Sc, and hold some certifications.  I'm studying for my Prince 2 practitioner exam, hoping it will give me a better position for a teaching post.  Education is the key for success for any decent job, especially when you competing against all the new kids fresh out of Uni.  BA's in IT unless it is design doesn't get you very far.

A masters in IT is looked upon highly for positions on the level of eVP/VP/SVP/CIO for 1000+ person companies.  Directors, managers, architects, team leads, senior engineers have no need for a masters unless they personally would want one.  I've worked at companies of many sizes and this is my direct experience in the field.  Your statement above is what I hear from people all the time who describe the IT field but don't actually live in it.  It's inaccurate.

I've worked with engineers who have no college degree all the way to those who have masters.  It makes little difference.  Someone either has the drive for IT or they don't.  No amount of certifications/degrees will give them that drive.  Just as well no amount of degrees/certs will save them when they get in an interview with me.  You either know it or you don't.  Even if you don't know it, if I think you can learn it and I like working with you, I'll hire you with a GED if that's all you have.

[ark_ader]

True, but be careful of putting too much stock into posted position requirements. I've seen many instances where the posted requirements were cobbled up by some HR person who had no idea what the actual requirements for the position really were.

^^^^ This.  After 17 years in software development and IT I can tell you the above is 100% true.  The bigger the organization the further the HR person is from the actual jobs.  They often don't know a damn thing about what any of the terms, certifications, or technologies mean.  It's very common to get an HR person that will mark a candidate off because he said he has "10 years of enterprise java but has never used Maven" where Maven isn't even really a job requirement.  Then we end up with a resume with only 1 year of java but claims to be a Maven expert presented as the best candidate. 

I have lost count of the amount of times someone has been brought in with a long list of certifications that may as well have been printed on toilet paper because the guy has never been in an actual corporate production environment.  Who cares if you took a 3 week class on Server 2003 when you don't understand the functional differences between 32 and 64 bit operating systems?  I swear if I have to explain to one more MS Certified Admin WHY a given application platform should run on a 64 bit OS I'm going to punch him.  One would think that a guy making 6 figures would just look at the Architecture Document, see 64 bit OS, see the runtime resource requirements, and understand.

A masters in IT is looked upon highly for positions on the level of eVP/VP/SVP/CIO for 1000+ person companies.  Directors, managers, architects, team leads, senior engineers have no need for a masters unless they personally would want one.  I've worked at companies of many sizes and this is my direct experience in the field.  Your statement above is what I hear from people all the time who describe the IT field but don't actually live in it.  It's inaccurate.

I've worked with engineers who have no college degree all the way to those who have masters.  It makes little difference.  Someone either has the drive for IT or they don't.  No amount of certifications/degrees will give them that drive.  Just as well no amount of degrees/certs will save them when they get in an interview with me.  You either know it or you don't.  Even if you don't know it, if I think you can learn it and I like working with you, I'll hire you with a GED if that's all you have.

Both posts were similar so I just wanted to respond jointly.  I agree with you both 100%.  I cannot count how many people I had to train fresh from college with no practical and plenty of home but no corporate experience.  That was like 5 years ago, and unfortunately things have drastically changed since then.  The technology sectors have emptied their redundant resource pools and there is much more competition for positions.  If I wanted my old job back I would need a 4 year degree with a 3.0 or higher average and either an A+ or MCP.  It is as simple as that.  You have an advantage of discussing the subject from within, try looking at it as a qualified Joe looking for a job.

It is getting your foot in the door, and if you do not have the bare minimums, good luck!

p.s. I can get my old job back without a degree (I have a BSc anyway), but if I want a crack at my bosses job I have to ace this next year. 

Just curious:  How many of you that work in an IT capacity (management, network, development or 3rd level) take the time out and teach community college? 

[trekking95]

first of all. I need to say I am recovering from a nervous break down.
but I do to have say a thought hit my brain I can not shake.

This might sound stupid at first. But think hard on it.

Question: As a human race , why do we need money?
why can we not produce and consume as needed?
and take as needed.

I see money only as a social status  

You watch Star Trek, right? They get along fine with no money but only after World War 3, warp drive and the Vulcans showing up.
I would just stay with the money. 

[shmokes]

You watch Star Trek, right? They get along fine with no money but only after World War 3, warp drive and the Vulcans showing up.
I would just stay with the money. 

Ignoring for a moment that anything is possible in fiction . . . the moneyless society in Star Trek has nothing (or at least very little) to do with World War 3, warp drive, or Vulcans. None of those things would have much impact on the utility of money. The existence of the replicator, on the other hand, virtually eliminates material scarcity of any kind. While it's at it, it also eliminates a good percentage of menial jobs. Even still, that society would have to be pretty rigidly structured--in ways that are bound to be considered unfair by a good chunk of the population. In one episode, I think it might have been the series finale, Picard is shown as owning an enormous vineyard on Earth. Obviously most people can not have such a large and desirable piece of property. And the replicator can't very well replicate a big vineyard for you to live on. Moreover, if I recall correctly, this is a family vineyard, i.e., it's been being passed down through the generations. Seems a bit unlikely that money would be eliminated but inheritance and aristocracy would survive.

On the other hand, maybe Picard doesn't own a big vineyard. Maybe it wasn't real--each inhabitant of earth just gets a holodeck, so they can pretty much live however/wherever/whenever they want. Speaking of which, what happens if you spend a long time on the holodeck and you eat a bunch of food, which your body subsequently metabolizes? What happens when you leave the holodeck? It seems like it would be horrible.

[Le Chuck]

Holodecks have built in replicators for foodstuffs.  Everybody knows that. 

[shmokes]

That seems problematic. Like, if you're at a restaurant and someone suddenly says, "Computer, end program," it seems like suddenly a bunch of liquid and food would come crashing down to the floor. I suppose they could, like, use the transporter to make it all disappear, but that's obviously not happening in the show. And what if someone's swimming in a big lake in the holodeck when another crew member unwittingly opens the door from the other side? The lake would have to be replicated (cos the water could easily be ingested), but once the door opened, without the rule of holodeck matter ceasing to exist outside the holodeck, millions upon millions of gallons of water would come rushing into the halls of the star ship. That could have serious health and safety implications.

[Vigo]

Holodecks were serious health and safety hazards. Every other week it replicates Moriarty or some other mastermind villian to wander the ship. They were probably a calculated risk to stave off cabin fever. They were also probably very similar to the replicator anyway, so replicating and disintegrating only food that is not consumed seems likely.

I'm also guessing replicator food tastes like sculped feces. I'm pretty sure the replicators are hooked directly to the ship's septic system. Why would you need an orchard if you could replicate an apple. It's kinda obvious that replicator food is mostly only appealing to the crew of a ship that doesn't get real food for months on end. Right now we have frozen dinners and twinkies and canned food, doesn't mean we don't still need to buy fresh food anymore.

[Le Chuck]

Replicated items are assembled on a molecular level and are identical to the original data sample.  Just read Diamond Age by Stephenson - all makes perfect sense.

[HaRuMaN]

lol

[shmokes]

Replicated items are assembled on a molecular level and are identical to the original data sample.  Just read Diamond Age by Stephenson - all makes perfect sense.

But still . . . did the computer take a lowest common denominator approach, a la Applebee's/Chili's? It could be a problem. For example, Picard is always all, "Computer, tea, Earl Grey, hot." I happen to drink Earl Grey tea most mornings, and I tell you the difference in flavor between brands is monumental. I suppose the computer might have the data sample for like a million different brands and Captain Picard just went into settings beforehand and selected his personal favorite as default. But if it's just defaulting to, like, Lipton or something you can see the problem.  

[Le Chuck]

Replicated items are assembled on a molecular level and are identical to the original data sample.  Just read Diamond Age by Stephenson - all makes perfect sense.

But still . . . did the computer take a lowest common denominator approach, a la Applebee's/Chili's? It could be a problem. For example, Picard is always all, "Computer, tea, Earl Grey, hot." I happen to drink Earl Grey tea most mornings, and I tell you the difference in flavor between brands is monumental. I suppose the computer might have the data sample for like a million different brands and Captain Picard just went into settings beforehand and selected his personal favorite as default. But if it's just defaulting to, like, Lipton or something you can see the problem.  

These are the uptown problems of a cashless future society.  Beats the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- outta cancer and aids. 

[Vigo]

Space Prank: Set Picard's default tea setting to some obscure tea made from fermented pig ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[trekking95]

Replicated items are assembled on a molecular level and are identical to the original data sample.  Just read Diamond Age by Stephenson - all makes perfect sense.

But still . . . did the computer take a lowest common denominator approach, a la Applebee's/Chili's? It could be a problem. For example, Picard is always all, "Computer, tea, Earl Grey, hot." I happen to drink Earl Grey tea most mornings, and I tell you the difference in flavor between brands is monumental. I suppose the computer might have the data sample for like a million different brands and Captain Picard just went into settings beforehand and selected his personal favorite as default. But if it's just defaulting to, like, Lipton or something you can see the problem.  

These are the uptown problems of a cashless future society.  Beats the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- outta cancer and aids.  

In their future there was no sickness, as in when they said colds were something people got a long time ago. Okay there was some disease (McCoy had arthritis, unless he was joking) but not as much of it in the later series.

With the tea I would think that there was only one type of Earl Grey, why have different brands when there is no money and no brand competition? It would just be the classic one from back when Earl Grey made it.

And in the holodecks the food and drinks would be real.
But why would the water in a lake be replicated when there is no need to drink it?
I think the safety thing in the holodecks is lame, if just any self aware holo-program can override them why are they in place? There should be nothing to override, the safety protocols should be there and that's all there is too it. No real bullets, self aware programs, wild creatures, Klingons, WW2 soldiers running through the ship, problems where if the holodeck is shut off the people in there are dematerialized, etc. Nothing like that. No risk at all with an override by a Captain, alien, program, virus, just nothing. But there would be no plot for the shows then, now would there?  

[trekking95]

You watch Star Trek, right? They get along fine with no money but only after World War 3, warp drive and the Vulcans showing up.
I would just stay with the money.  

Ignoring for a moment that anything is possible in fiction . . . the moneyless society in Star Trek has nothing (or at least very little) to do with World War 3, warp drive, or Vulcans. None of those things would have much impact on the utility of money.

Well warp drive had to be there for the Vulcans to show up and show humans how to work to benefit mankind by exploring space and improving themselves, not just work to fill up their bank account. When you work for benefiting something like that there is no need or want and therefore money is useless. WW3 would also show people that life is not about power and nuking the crap out of people to get it. But that only works if the Vulcans are there to clean up the nuclear mess, otherwise there are better (safer) ways to learn that.

[Vigo]

With the tea I would think that there was only one type of Earl Grey, why have different brands when there is no money and no brand competition? It would just be the classic one from back when Earl Grey made it.

Tea is kinda not just a brand thing though, it varies quite a bit from even where the tea leaves are harvested. The actual original recipe is probably not even known. I'm sure there are multiple tea companies claiming to be the one with the original recipe, but Earl Gray can be pretty much any black tea with a certain type of citrus oil in it.

It would be along the same lines of saying that they can only replicate one type pale ale, one type of black coffee, one type of chocolate bar.  While that might be how it works in the Star Trek universe, it only supports my idea that replicator food really blows, and people not stuck on a starship prefer the real thing. They probably have just one lager beer programmed in their replicator as well, and it's probably just Pabst Blue Ribbon.

[HaRuMaN]

[Samstag]

I'd like to derail the previous derailment to start a discussion on why this image is backwards.

[ChadTower]

p.s. I can get my old job back without a degree (I have a BSc anyway), but if I want a crack at my bosses job I have to ace this next year. 

Funny thing about engineers.  A lot of us don't want the boss' job.  I was a manager and left the company to become an engineer again someplace else.

Just curious:  How many of you that work in an IT capacity (management, network, development or 3rd level) take the time out and teach community college? 

Not me.

[trekking95]

With the tea I would think that there was only one type of Earl Grey, why have different brands when there is no money and no brand competition? It would just be the classic one from back when Earl Grey made it.

Tea is kinda not just a brand thing though, it varies quite a bit from even where the tea leaves are harvested. The actual original recipe is probably not even known. I'm sure there are multiple tea companies claiming to be the one with the original recipe, but Earl Gray can be pretty much any black tea with a certain type of citrus oil in it.

It would be along the same lines of saying that they can only replicate one type pale ale, one type of black coffee, one type of chocolate bar.  While that might be how it works in the Star Trek universe, it only supports my idea that replicator food really blows, and people not stuck on a starship prefer the real thing. They probably have just one lager beer programmed in their replicator as well, and it's probably just Pabst Blue Ribbon.

True. I don't know how that works. Maybe each crew member can select a favorite of each item that the computer remembers when they replicate it. So they could get the type of leafs, coco beans, ale and whatnot that they like. But then the booze has no alcohol anyway so how would they deal with that? 

[trekking95]

[kahlid74]

That was like 5 years ago, and unfortunately things have drastically changed since then.  The technology sectors have emptied their redundant resource pools and there is much more competition for positions.  If I wanted my old job back I would need a 4 year degree with a 3.0 or higher average and either an A+ or MCP.  It is as simple as that.  You have an advantage of discussing the subject from within, try looking at it as a qualified Joe looking for a job.

If it has drastically changed then either I haven't noticed it or the area of the US I work in isn't as affected.  Certifications are good, but aren't required.  BA is good, but isn't required.  Average doesn't matter worth a crap.  The last thing looked at when interviewing a prospective employee (Director,Senior,technician, etc.) is an average.

It is getting your foot in the door, and if you do not have the bare minimums, good luck!

Now this is a different subject entirely.  Experience reigns supreme in IT.  Up to date experience also reigns supreme.  Just getting into the field from either college/high school/career change you need to make sure you accept reality, which is you will start in some form of help desk/service desk.  Far too many people expect to hop right into administration and engineering once they decide IT is their profession.  Some people do go right to those, but they are the minority.  The majority of people who have trouble finding jobs in IT are going after positions where their experience doesn't place them.

A fresh out of college with a computer engineering degree and 3.89 average and a CCNP won't land a Senior Network engineering job on my team.  A 10 year veteran with a GED, great understanding of network theory and the ability to interact well with me and our team lands it every time.

Just curious:  How many of you that work in an IT capacity (management, network, development or 3rd level) take the time out and teach community college? 

I taught for about four years but have stopped since my son was born.  I'd love to help out again but I've got so many damn hobbies and I want to spend time with my son/wife too so something has to give.

Also I knew Star Trek would at some point work its way into here.  The thing to remember about Star Trek is that currency still exists and bartering still exist in the universe, you just don't see much of then on TNG because the focus of the show is so centered on the Enterprise.  If you watch Deep Space Nine you'll see currency and bartering occurring all the time.

[Dawgz Rule]

Agree with Kahlid 100%.  It is all about experience and fit.  IT is still an industry where you have to start from the bottom and work your way up.  At least that is how it is on the ops side of the house.  All of my engineers started in a help desk role and broke out from there into security, infrastructure, etc.  If you're good, you can move up the ranks pretty quickly.

[ChadTower]

And yet even if you end up as director of IT you're still going to be resetting computers for people half the time.

In a large company all the Directors ever do is sign off on "emergency changes" that were not tested, verified, and the off hours support work is not arranged ahead of time.  They are the rubber stamp for "---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- we shouldn't do but will look good on upper management's status report if it works".

[daywane]

update:
well I started my new (old job really) I have forgotten much but it is coming back to me.
stress level non existent compared to roll-form. sane pay same shift same breaks even.
I am really enjoying watching my old boss struggle with out me. LOL
my head has stopped bobbing for the most part. I am staying on the pills for 6 more months
I still have a twitch in the neck ever so often and really over nothing. Things seem to be calming down and not dog pile on me and I hope to get back to my P90X soon.
I added a few pounds. 180 lbs. still a long way from my heaviest. 240lbs. Back to fat shredder diet. I will lose this stubborn 15 lbs.breaking the 200 lbs was hard. looks like I hit a wall again. Chin ups are really the only exercise I do.
I still think the planet would be better off with no cash value on a darn thing.
I really think we could all get along with out it. But it would take all to do it. A small group would never survive long. I also Think life would slow down.

We do not live the life that we were put on this planet to do.
I really think we out live our bodies now and really screwed up the order of life.
Mankind was meant to hunt and gather food.
well that is really my shrink talking but it does sound right to me

[shmokes]

Daywane, it's a good idea to hold off on accepting some idea if you cannot reconcile it with what you know is true. Money, as others have mentioned, serves a useful purpose. It allows you to trade your skills with people who don't need or want your skills. For example, maybe you raise cattle and the local bricklayer is a vegetarian. He doesn't want any beef, but since you can sell your product for money, and he can sell his service for money, you both have a common means of trade.

So, you can see how money serves a purpose. Before you conclude that life would be better without it you I really think you should decide how you can accomplish the same tasks better without money. Remember, money doesn't create wealth. In a world without money, if most the people want apples, and few people want peaches, the man with the apple orchard is richer than the man with the peach orchard, because the man with the apple orchard can trade his apples for more things than the man with the peach orchard. Apples are more valuable than peaches. It has nothing to do with money. Money simply facilitates trade. It makes it more efficient. It makes it so the local dairy farmer can buy apples even if the apple farmer is lactose intolerant.

[daywane]

every one keeps going to trade.
I mean no trade or anything. Just produce as we do today and go to walmart and get what you need.
PERIOD .
it seems so simple. I would work for free for that.
would you not?
think of ant's.
If you ask me that is what we are as a human race. nothing more than insects on this planet.

[shmokes]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

[shponglefan]

every one keeps going to trade.
I mean no trade or anything. Just produce as we do today and go to walmart and get what you need.
PERIOD .
it seems so simple. I would work for free for that.
would you not?
think of ant's.
If you ask me that is what we are as a human race. nothing more than insects on this planet.

If there was no trade, there would be no Walmart.  Or any other stores.  Or much of anything really. It would just be people living directly off the land with whatever you could grow, hunt or harvest.

You could do that if you really wanted.  But that would mean giving up a lot of what you have, including basics like running water, modern medicine, electricity, etc.

[daywane]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

communism? no kidding? I must look up communism.
It must really mean more than dictators?
I never really looked up the word.
let me check into this more.
I doubt if I mean communism becouse if we just produced and consumed as needed we would not need a goverment

[AtomSmasher]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

communism? no kidding? I must look up communism.
It must really mean more than dictators?
I never really looked up the word.
let me check into this more.
I doubt if I mean communism becouse if we just produced and consumed as needed we would not need a goverment

True communism doesn't have a dictator, it just never works out that way.  From Wikipedia:
Communism is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.

[daywane]

every one keeps going to trade.
I mean no trade or anything. Just produce as we do today and go to walmart and get what you need.
PERIOD .
it seems so simple. I would work for free for that.
would you not?
think of ant's.
If you ask me that is what we are as a human race. nothing more than insects on this planet.

If there was no trade, there would be no Walmart.  Or any other stores.  Or much of anything really. It would just be people living directly off the land with whatever you could grow, hunt or harvest.

You could do that if you really wanted.  But that would mean giving up a lot of what you have, including basics like running water, modern medicine, electricity, etc.

you still do not get what I mean.
why would there be no Walmart there is many now.
we have running water now  electricity, etc.
why do we have to walk away from them they do exist now.
just why do we fell the need for money to work. We could work just because it benefits all.
I do not value my worth in cash. even though I am worth a nice sum. it just seems pointless to me. It only make life hard.

[daywane]

Do you just mean simple communism? If so, it's a very nice principle, but there seems to be no way to make it work. Many many groups of people have tried. It seems that we are not at all like ants, as it appears that it is human nature itself that is incompatible with communism.

communism? no kidding? I must look up communism.
It must really mean more than dictators?
I never really looked up the word.
let me check into this more.
I doubt if I mean communism becouse if we just produced and consumed as needed we would not need a goverment

True communism doesn't have a dictator, it just never works out that way.  From Wikipedia:
Communism is a revolutionary socialist movement to create a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production, as well as a social, political and economic ideology that aims at the establishment of this social order.

YEP THAT'S IT! BINGO
I fill dirty now but it is still my way of believing to be the right path.
I guess I am a  communist. I did look it up. and saw the exact thing. I do not like the word though. "communism" 

[shponglefan]

you still do not get what I mean.
why would there be no Walmart there is many now.

Walmart stores exist because they are part of a profit-driven corporation.  Without the incentive for profit, there would be no Walmarts.

we have running water now  electricity, etc.
why do we have to walk away from them they do exist now.

And we have those things largely because of the system under which we obtained them (free market economy).  Take away that, and things become a lot more challenging.  Who is going to supply the electricity if no one is going to pay for it?  No money = no private enterprise.  Government run would be the only solution.

But just ask North Korea how well that has worked out.

just why do we fell the need for money to work. We could work just because it benefits all.
I do not value my worth in cash. even though I am worth a nice sum. it just seems pointless to me. It only make life hard.

The reason we have money is primarily as a means of trade and also a store of value.  Without some form of common means of trade, trading for things becomes extremely innefficent.  If you study civilizations going back thousands of years, often they all developed some form of common basic currency to facilitate trade.

And you think life is hard with money?  Try life without it.

[daywane]

the most fun in life my family has had was at my poorest I made $8,000 that year.

[Vigo]

That's good that feel you don't need to rely on money as your measure of happiness. To me, that speaks volumes about your character. I guess as far as communism goes, it just doesn't work. There is a reason why 100,000+ people have been protesting in the streets of Hong Kong over the last week, and that is because Communism cannot survive on any larger scale without widespread oppression. You can of course join small communes. The Amish are a pretty good example. They all pitch in and build their own community, and only use and make money for when they need to deal with the outside world.

To think about the failure of large communism in a practical sense. You may be willing to work your job and get what you want from the store to survive. What happens to the guy next to you who sleeps on the job all day? He has no incentive to work harder because he will still have the same access to goods as you, no matter how poorly he does his job. Now what about the guy who cleans sewers all day, nobody wants that job, because without pay, there is no incentive to choose that job. So you have all the sewage people deciding they want to work at a ski resort instead. Things fall apart pretty quickly on a larger scale, so you end up needing an oppressive government telling everybody how to live their lives.

[daywane]

sadly that makes since.
I pray for a better system.
ours is just plain filled with corruption and greed. I am discusted

[Dawgz Rule]

you end up needing an oppressive government telling everybody how to live their lives.

or to purchase health insurance....

[shmokes]

you end up needing an oppressive government telling everybody how to live their lives.

or to purchase health insurance....

Now now . . . don't be rude. There are Obamacare threads in the politics forum. If you feel like taking a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, you may as well go to the toilet to do so.

As was mentioned, there are communes where you can practice communism, right here in America. Just a couple years ago I was the best man at a wedding in the town of Eskdale, Utah. I'd heard a lot about Eskdale, since my friend spent his junior high and high school years there, but I hadn't seen it until he got married. It was pretty great. And from an academic standpoint, it was utterly fascinating. The houses have no kitchens. The people have big, nice homes, but they build them without kitchens. Cos everyone eats together in the communal dining area. And they eat well, as they make and can all kinds of great stuff--jams, apple butter, fruits, vegetables, etc. They also have a dairy farm there (which is primarily how the commune makes money to deal with the outside world). And the people there don't earn a salary. They do various jobs (there's a school, for example, so there are school teachers), but most of them just work and live . . . no money (there are a few who work outside the commune and give the money to the commune, like an accountant who works in Salt Lake). Anyway, super nice people. Not at all creepy.

As Vigo explained, it doesn't work on a large scale. But it can work quite well on a smaller scale. You could always find something like Eskdale and try it out for real. I read a quote recently that I really liked: Have the courage to live the life you love. Or something to that effect. Anyway, why not give it a shot? Capitalism will be waiting for you out in the real world if it doesn't work out.

[kahlid74]

I always loved the idea and theory of Communism.  It seemed so romantic and made so much sense to me.  My 10th grade history teacher was hot however and those one on one sessions, whew!

Human nature then reared it's ugly head and any practical application of communism goes right out the window.

[Woodshop Flunky]

just why do we fell the need for money to work. We could work just because it benefits all.

This sort of system breaks down really fast since there are so many folks out there that won't even work for their own benefit.  These people certainly aren't going to work for the benefit of others. 

[Le Chuck]

As was mentioned, there are communes where you can practice communism, right here in America. Just a couple years ago I was the best man at a wedding in the town of Eskdale, Utah. I'd heard a lot about Eskdale, since my friend spent his junior high and high school years there, but I hadn't seen it until he got married. It was pretty great. And from an academic standpoint, it was utterly fascinating. The houses have no kitchens. The people have big, nice homes, but they build them without kitchens. Cos everyone eats together in the communal dining area. And they eat well, as they make and can all kinds of great stuff--jams, apple butter, fruits, vegetables, etc. They also have a dairy farm there (which is primarily how the commune makes money to deal with the outside world). And the people there don't earn a salary. They do various jobs (there's a school, for example, so there are school teachers), but most of them just work and live . . . no money (there are a few who work outside the commune and give the money to the commune, like an accountant who works in Salt Lake). Anyway, super nice people. Not at all creepy.

As Vigo explained, it doesn't work on a large scale. But it can work quite well on a smaller scale. You could always find something like Eskdale and try it out for real. I read a quote recently that I really liked: Have the courage to live the life you love. Or something to that effect. Anyway, why not give it a shot? Capitalism will be waiting for you out in the real world if it doesn't work out.

That sounds like a great way to spend a couple of years.  I don't think I would want to unplug for good but when the boys are old enough to get something out of it I think it would be a great lesson to spend two years or so in a community like that.  My main concern would be employ-ability after a two year sabbatical.  Thanks for the post shmokes.   

[Mysterioii]

With communism everybody wants a Ferrari and everybody gets a used turnip cart.  If everybody busted ass to the best of their ability it might make sense, but in actuality it doesn't work out that way.

Now if you're talking about a VOLUNTARY community like was described that might work ok... until the kids want more...  But when you take a larger society and impose communism upon it... nobody's particularly happy.

[shmokes]

until the kids want more... 

Obviously this sort of thing would vary from community to community (commune to commune?), but at Eskdale the kids are encouraged to go to college after high school, just like any other kids. Which obviously means leaving Eskdale since there are obviously no universities there. And there doesn't appear to be any particular pressure to return. I'm friends with a half-dozen people from the community who were born there or who lived there for a substantial portion of their childhoods, and all of them love the place. About 1/3 of them I'm sure will live there permanently. 1/3 will never go back except to visit. And the other 1/3 . . . who knows.

So . . . if the kids want more, capitalism is waiting for them right outside the city limits. Well . . . the place is in the middle of nowhere (very beautiful nowhere, mind you), so it's a couple hours drive to a decent city. But still, it's not the type of thing that a person would need to escape. You can just leave anytime, get a job, go to university. And when you're tired of capitalism, they're happy to have you bring any useful skills back to the commune, so long as you're ready to give up any property advantages your capitalistic exploits have brought you. You can't, like, come in and build a mansion with a swimming pool and hot tub, etc. Everything is shared. If you want a bigger home, the community has to agree that you need a bigger home. All for one and one for all. Or at least, one for all. 

For what it's worth, from the brief time I spent there, I'd say the people living there are very, very happy.

[shponglefan]

I pray for a better system.
ours is just plain filled with corruption and greed. I am discusted

The issue isn't the system.  The issue is people.  And people aren't changing any time soon.

[Dawgz Rule]

Pretty cool view via Bing but otherwise couldn't find any photos....

Long link shortened

[ark_ader]

Daywane, it's a good idea to hold off on accepting some idea if you cannot reconcile it with what you know is true. Money, as others have mentioned, serves a useful purpose. It allows you to trade your skills with people who don't need or want your skills. For example, maybe you raise cattle and the local bricklayer is a vegetarian. He doesn't want any beef, but since you can sell your product for money, and he can sell his service for money, you both have a common means of trade.

So, you can see how money serves a purpose. Before you conclude that life would be better without it you I really think you should decide how you can accomplish the same tasks better without money. Remember, money doesn't create wealth. In a world without money, if most the people want apples, and few people want peaches, the man with the apple orchard is richer than the man with the peach orchard, because the man with the apple orchard can trade his apples for more things than the man with the peach orchard. Apples are more valuable than peaches. It has nothing to do with money. Money simply facilitates trade. It makes it more efficient. It makes it so the local dairy farmer can buy apples even if the apple farmer is lactose intolerant.

I have read that several times and I could not agree more.

Kudos Shmokes. 

[ChadTower]

...the local dairy farmer trades aged manure for apples...   

[daywane]

...the local dairy farmer trades aged manure for apples...   

That happens here also. stinks to high heaven when its is sprayed on crops!

[Samstag]