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Author Topic: money?  (Read 15884 times)

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daywane

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money?
« on: June 19, 2012, 10:08:37 pm »
first of all. I need to say I am recovering from a nervous break down.
but I do to have say a thought hit my brain I can not shake.

This might sound stupid at first. But think hard on it.

Question: As a human race , why do we need money?
why can we not produce and consume as needed?
and take as needed.

I see money only as a social status  
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 10:16:46 pm by daywane »

SNAAKE

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Re: money?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 10:12:45 pm »
money is useless. you should paypal me all your moneyz right now :burgerking:

daywane

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Re: money?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 10:19:41 pm »
 I understand the the joke and chuckled but I am serious .
why do we need to be paid?
why can we not produce and consume as needed?

MonMotha

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Re: money?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 10:48:19 pm »
I think the answer you're probably looking for is the exact same reason why capitalism is one of the most functional (even if not "the best" and certainly not the most equitable) economic systems come up with so far: people are greedy.

In general, people aren't willing to do something for nothing.  Some people exhibit this more openly than others.  For example, some people who are "really greedy" are unwilling to do even the most basic of humanitarian tasks, such as holding a door for a pregnant women, without some form of compensation which they may overtly even ask for.  Others are more subtle: they may be willing to do "favors", especially for "friends" on the sole grounds of "tit for tat".  Basically, they expect to be repaid with a similar degree of thought or useful activity at some later, perhaps undefined time.

And hence we have arrived at a barter economy.  You may need some widget designed.  I happen to design widgets.  I'm willing to design a widget for you, but I expect something in return.  If I know you, trust you, am friends with you, etc., I may be willing to do things informally e.g. I'll design your widget now, and, some time in the future, maybe you'll help me repaint my house or bring some food home for me.  However, if I don't know you well, I'll probably want to have at least the terms up front, and I'll probably want things resolved in short order e.g. I'll design your widget now and in return you agree to paint my house in full the weekend after I complete the design and deliver it.

Ah, but we have a problem.  Suppose you are really only good at painting houses (you may be REALLY good at it - it's your specialty - but you're not good at much else), but my house was just painted last month.  It probably doesn't need painted again.  Likewise, I'm the best widget designer in town.  You'd be a fool to have somebody design you a widget based solely on their need for having their house painted.  You have a couple choices: you can either work out some convoluted, multi-party trade, or everybody can generally agree on some neutral arbiter of "favors owed".  That neutral arbiter is money.

And hence we arrive at a capitalist/market driven economy.  You can efficiently trade goods and services using this neutral representation of value and wealth that is money.  Your employer will happily accept service from you ("work") and give you money.  That's fine by you because your only other option would be to have him give you the product of your services right back (since that's all he has, absent other trades), and that's probably not very useful to you.  You can take your money and give it to someone else in exchange for whatever the two of you agree on.  You've removed the need to involve everybody in a single transaction just to trade arbitrary goods and services.

Of course, if nobody was greedy, this wouldn't be needed.  We could do everything on the informal basis.  The problem is that if you're informal, sometimes you'll get screwed over.  I might design that widget, and you might use/sell them to people in exchange for services/goods they can provide, but you may welch on your obligation to me indefinitely.  If you're really a friend, I probably don't care a lot, because I value our friendship for other reasons, but if you're just some Joe, I'm probably pretty miffed that you didn't do anything in return.  And chances are, if you're greedy, you'll welch on any obligation you can.  But if we have money, I get paid at the end, and that's that.

RayB

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Re: money?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 11:34:36 pm »
short version: there are always ---uvulas--- to ruin it for the rest of us.
NO MORE!!

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Re: money?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2012, 01:17:09 am »

Truth is, beyond the stone age, almost no single person can do everything needed to participate in society. For instance, hunting, baking bread, mining copper, making tools/weapons, stone masonry, farming. Once you get to the Bronze age, you needed a village full of specialists. It's no co-incidence that a common means of exchange turned up roughly with the Bronze age...

In reality, to do what you ask, Daywayne, everyone would need to go back to the Stone Age. People have tried to have their cake and eat it but have always failed. State Communism, for instance. Or hippy communes. All noble ideas, but doomed to fail with the modern trappings we think we need. And as Monmotha says- we are greedy.

Individually, you can live a much more ascetic life if you really wanted. A co-worker has just quit and moved to Sri Lanka. He's moved to a quiet fishing village, that gets a few tourists. He has a bit of cash, and is into lots of outdoors activities. He is going to teach tourists that standy-uppy kayaky thing that is all the rage at the moment. $20 a pop. Where $20 will keep him going for a week very easily. One lesson a week, fish for some of his meals. Idyllic, if you can relinquish most of the modern trappings. He won't be a total monk, but by ---fudgesicle--- will he be happier than you or I!


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daywane

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Re: money?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 06:59:09 am »
I agree. I got pissed at work and tried my very best to get fired. The company sent me to a shrink.
every body asked me what I planed to do if I got fired.
answer: Hunt Fish and Grow

daywane

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Re: money?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 07:04:26 am »
just as a side note to all my friends. all heck with it. to all the world.
do not hold all emotions bottled up inside you. you will snap. and if you step out side of your brain it is very hard to step back in.Zoloft helps but the side effects are not fun .

I guess you could call me a bobble head because that is what I am now.

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Re: money?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 08:59:29 am »
I agree. I got pissed at work and tried my very best to get fired. The company sent me to a shrink.
every body asked me what I planed to do if I got fired.
answer: Hunt Fish and Grow


Why go thru all the trouble of trying to get fired?  Why not just quit if your job makes you so miserable?

Le Chuck

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Re: money?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 09:00:42 am »
Why are you trying to get fired?  Quit.  Stop wasting your company money.  Man up and quit.  

You can live money-less.  Don't expect or ask that I do that but you can by all means.  If you are willing to forgo all luxury then you should be able to execute this lifestyle from anywhere.  Hell, you can probably still document your journey on here providing you are squatting close enough to a town with a library for free innerweb service and bathroom whore-baths.      

drventure

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Re: money?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2012, 09:05:52 am »
Why go thru all the trouble of trying to get fired?  Why not just quit if your job makes you so miserable?

+1

Stay there long enough to find something you like, then walk in, quit and move on.

ChadTower

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Re: money?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2012, 09:17:59 am »

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

Malenko

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Re: money?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2012, 09:57:16 am »
hate to say it, I agree with jim.

Also think of money as a universal IOU that you can use on anyone.
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Re: money?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 10:14:27 am »

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

You don't need unemployment if you give up money.

lordnacho

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Re: money?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 10:15:40 am »
Last person I heard question currency, they went and shot a senator.  Please continue the shrink

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Re: money?
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 10:27:34 am »
Last person I heard question currency, they went and shot a senator.  Please continue the shrink

My 7 year old daughter asked the same question the other day.   Better keep an eye on her.   8)

ChadTower

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Re: money?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 10:35:28 am »

Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

You don't need unemployment if you give up money.


Do you have another viable reason for acting up to get fired instead of just walking away?

lordnacho

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Re: money?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 10:47:11 am »
Last person I heard question currency, they went and shot a senator.  Please continue the shrink

My 7 year old daughter asked the same question the other day.   Better keep an eye on her.   8)
I was talking about my 3 year old.  :'(

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Re: money?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 10:50:19 am »
Can't apply for unemployment if you quit.

You can't file for unemployment if you were fired, except in peculiar circumstances. Ok. Strike that. You CAN file, but you likely will be denied.

Here's some details.
http://unemploymenthandbook.com/unemployment-articles/all-about-unemployment/181-can-you-get-unemployment-if-you-get-fired

Of course, laws vary state to state, but generally, if you TRY to get fired, and then get fired, you could have a tough time getting unemployment payments.

It's almost always better to stay employed, find something else, then leave as amicably as possible. Though, I'll admit, doing otherwise sure would feel better sometimes  ;)

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Re: money?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 10:59:54 am »

In some states you get paid first and then if you are denied you go into arbitration.  That process can take a long time.

I bet he's Union, too, which means he couldn't be fired.  He'd have to be laid off after a negotiation process with the Union reps.  That's probably why he wasn't fired in the first place.

Silas (son of Silas)

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Re: money?
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2012, 04:56:27 pm »
Money ..... It rules my life to a level I cannot even begin to comprehend. I hate it, and everyone hates me for it.

A few years ago I posted on here about the job I was doing, driving 120 miles each way to work and back every day just to make the mortgage. I got up at 4am every day and I never saw my wife and kids. life was ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Fast forward to today. my mortage is 4x what it was when I made that post. I'm a vice president in one of the worlds most successful investment banks and I paid more in tax last year than the average gross income. I spend 23hrs a day shitting myself that my bubble is going to burst.

My brain is fried and all I do is work. (I doubt anyone noticed I never post here anymore) I never play my arcade, I just work in an attempt to cling onto the totally unsustainable, unrealistic plastic reality I have worked myself into.

I have no idea how to hit the eject button because my family just accepts this as normal.

I saw that post on here about the guy who lived in the middle of nowhere on his own with no debt, no bank breathing down his neck and thought "you lucky bastard!"
" ਜਿਹੜਾ ਲਾਓ ਜਰਦਾ ਉਹ ਸੌ ਸਾਲ ਨੰਈ ਮਰਦਾ " (he who chews tobacco would live to be a hundred )

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Dawgz Rule

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Re: money?
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2012, 05:16:34 pm »
Always file for unemployment.  More often than not, employers will pay it just because it isn't worth the hassle to fight it.  It isn't as simple as just being able to deny the claim.

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Re: money?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2012, 05:40:57 pm »
Money ..... It rules my life to a level I cannot even begin to comprehend. I hate it, and everyone hates me for it.

A few years ago I posted on here about the job I was doing, driving 120 miles each way to work and back every day just to make the mortgage. I got up at 4am every day and I never saw my wife and kids. life was ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Fast forward to today. my mortage is 4x what it was when I made that post. I'm a vice president in one of the worlds most successful investment banks and I paid more in tax last year than the average gross income. I spend 23hrs a day shitting myself that my bubble is going to burst.

My brain is fried and all I do is work. (I doubt anyone noticed I never post here anymore) I never play my arcade, I just work in an attempt to cling onto the totally unsustainable, unrealistic plastic reality I have worked myself into.

I have no idea how to hit the eject button because my family just accepts this as normal.

I saw that post on here about the guy who lived in the middle of nowhere on his own with no debt, no bank breathing down his neck and thought "you lucky bastard!"

You might want to check this out.  It's a little disorganized and way too extreme for most people, but the basic principles are sound.  With a high-earning job you're exactly the kind of person who can benefit from the idea.

The gist: Get off the lifestyle inflation treadmill where your spending keeps increasing with your income.  Learn to be happy with less stuff, save a ton of money, and lose your dependence on the job you hate.

danny_galaga

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Re: money?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2012, 08:01:32 am »


I saw that post on here about the guy who lived in the middle of nowhere on his own with no debt, no bank breathing down his neck and thought "you lucky bastard!"

His last post on facebook was about a month ago. This is all he posted. I'm guessing it's his new 'front' yard  :cheers:



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Malenko

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Re: money?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2012, 08:47:43 am »
its practically impossible to "cold turkey" your debt. instead of getting a really nice car, I got a base model Scion tC. Instead of going out to eat 4 or 5 times a week, I grocery shop and eat left overs, all the extra money goes towards my car payments and mortgage. The only expensive thing Ive bought in the last few years is the engagement ring for my girl, and I all my overtime money goes towards paying that ring off too.  I'd rather spend my money on tangible things instead of interest.
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Re: money?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2012, 01:22:24 pm »
The idea of a "money/currency"-less society is a novel one at best.  Human nature prevents this from ever occurring.

daywane

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Re: money?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2012, 02:04:03 pm »
no I am not union.
I  make 18.01 a hr. factory. I make air-condition tube( aluminum)
I am a roll form operator.
Problem: I am the most qualified person on the floor. I have mastered 7 machines in my department. all others except 1 I have personally trained. but each only knows 1 machine.
For 5 years solid I have done MAJOR amounts of over time. so much it has torn my family apart. My 17 year old daughter left my wife and I. I Just can not talk about it.

Work has been making me cover all other workers but other workers can not cover me.
the company posted a Tech Job in my department and a line leader.
I am a machinist not really a people person.

There is no question in the plant the job was mine. The tech. job

another person got the line leader job and the company decided they do not need a tech and asked me to train my BOSS!

I still refuse. They have decided to move me back to my old job in power steering.
still same pay grade and still day shift. MUCH less STRESS.

unemployment was on my mind but in my head I did not quit. The company quit on me.
If I quit my wife would be upset. if I got fired I would get more sex :)

Mysterioii

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Re: money?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2012, 03:06:33 pm »
haha man, that last line is priceless...   :lol

I know what ya mean.... in the past when I was single, and I'd had enough at the place I'd worked, I just quit one day.  Didn't even LOOK for a few months....  I hadn't taken a vacation in 4 years so I was like "to heck with it, I've got enough saved up, I'm gonna relax for a while".  Yeah it kinda sucked blowing through savings like that, but man was it a load off my back.  You don't get opportunities like that too often.

Now, I'm married and have an awesome 2-year-old little girl.  Even when things blow at my current job, it's just not the same situation as before.  Really would need to have something else lined up, can't be as impulsive as when you're on your own...

daywane

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Re: money?
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2012, 03:41:26 pm »
what makes my situation different  is I am dept free.
I own my home and cars.
no credit eather working on that
last look I was 690 credit score

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Re: money?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2012, 04:28:28 pm »
Play a game of Civilizations and you will see how money affects the world.

The reason we use money is that most people can't build a house on their own , grow their own food , and make their own clothes.  Spending half your week bartering for what you need is a huge waste of time and could leave you really hungry.  What happens when you need medicine?  Even if you can do those things, you will need to move to a country that doesn't have property taxes. 

Is this a serious question?  I feel like I am explaining this to a 3rd grader.

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Re: money?
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2012, 04:42:21 pm »
Is this a serious question?  I feel like I am explaining this to a 3rd grader.

That's alright, you are explaining it as if you were a 3rd grader.

 ;)
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Re: money?
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2012, 05:49:51 pm »
I think we played this game before Daywane.  You were mouthing off at your work before and I got upset with you about losing your job.  Nothing changed eh?

I haven't forgotten about your little dog.  Keep that avatar in your profile please.  Mine has gone up too.

I would love a nervous breakdown, but I'm way too busy.  Maybe later.  ;D

Off topic question:  does oral cancer hurt initially?
If I had only one wish, it would be for three more wishes.

daywane

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Re: money?
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2012, 06:08:34 pm »
I think we played this game before Daywane.  You were mouthing off at your work before and I got upset with you about losing your job.  Nothing changed eh?




I haven't forgotten about your little dog.  Keep that avatar in your profile please.  Mine has gone up too.

I would love a nervous breakdown, but I'm way too busy.  Maybe later.  ;D

Off topic question:  does oral cancer hurt initially?

"As you can see I did not get fired. I tried my best short of beating the crap out of 6 people I would have loved to do" and deserve.
I went another tactic.

I went in on a Saturday morning and soon realized I was the only one in roll form.
I was in to run only 1 machine.

well what the heck one last HOO- RA I decided and fired all of them up!
all of them at the same time? no. that would be to mush at first.
fired up 1 machine got its  rhythm in my head, then the next till I had a rhythm of each going I did this to all and really was dancing to the beat.
I also did 3 change overs
189% for the day over 7,000 good parts. no scrap!

I printed this out many times and signed and stated yes I am that good and you asses will never see it again.
OH LORD IT'S HARD TO BE HUMBLE.
BLANK YOU!

well I did not get fired?
they sent me to a shrink. I finely told the shrink since I will not train any more as a grade 7 and I will not train a grade 8 I will let6 roll form fail, and then the Japanese will come to me.

so they did. we are pulling me out of roll form and we are now going to see if I am right?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 06:27:51 pm by daywane »

DaveMMR

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Re: money?
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2012, 07:47:24 pm »
Have you ever thought that maybe it's time for a complete career change?  If you can live on a bit less money, start really plotting out what you love to do and turn in into a paying gig.

(I know it's easier said than done but something to ponder....)

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Re: money?
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2012, 08:11:09 pm »
Have you ever thought that maybe it's time for a complete career change?  If you can live on a bit less money, start really plotting out what you love to do and turn in into a paying gig.

(I know it's easier said than done but something to ponder....)

Heh, reminds me of this girl I dated for a short time.  She had a Bachelors degree and had a job that was exactly what that degree was made for.  She told me she hated her job, so she was going to get a Masters degree in the same field in order to get a better job.  I asked her which job would a Masters degree open up for her and she said "I don't know, I haven't really thought about it."  I found this to be kind of absurd.
Like DaveMMR said, first figure out what you want to do, then figure out how to get there, not the other way around.

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Re: money?
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2012, 08:54:11 pm »
Getting a masters in the same field is not as absurd as you think.  It is a natural progression that can open doors to management.  Also study is much much easier.

You would be surprised how a masters degree can open doors, in other fields of work.  Once I finish my Honors, I do the extra year for my masters in the same field.  If my employer will pay for it, then a doctorate.  I can teach, or work in the private sector or run my own business.  Just like your old girlfriend situation, you just don't know.  Not in today's world.  Anything is possible.

You don't need to think about it too much.  Most of it is pretty easy, and if you like writing a lot, it can be fun too.

Quote
Like DaveMMR said, first figure out what you want to do, then figure out how to get there, not the other way around.

I agree with this if you are just starting out in education.  No point if you are on the ladder already.  It is a waste of time and money.

Besides the US education system is too expensive and still not the best, not by a long shot.   

The financial burden can be a real monkey on your back, especially when you are qualified and still unemployed two years after.

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Re: money?
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2012, 02:28:30 am »
no I am not union.
I  make 18.01 a hr. factory. I make air-condition tube( aluminum)
I am a roll form operator.
Problem: I am the most qualified person on the floor. I have mastered 7 machines in my department. all others except 1 I have personally trained. but each only knows 1 machine.
For 5 years solid I have done MAJOR amounts of over time. so much it has torn my family apart. My 17 year old daughter left my wife and I. I Just can not talk about it.



---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude. Move to Australia! I'm a postman. I earn $22.40 an hour. After ONE year at most jobs in Australia, you are entitled to 4 weeks leave a year. That's pretty crap they treat you like that with all your qualification and experience with their equipment...

Have you ever thought that maybe it's time for a complete career change?  If you can live on a bit less money, start really plotting out what you love to do and turn in into a paying gig.

(I know it's easier said than done but something to ponder....)


This is what my workmate did. It happened in stages. He used to run a car rental place. Pressure became too much. Then he became a postman, less money, but less hassle. He is very laid back, so they used to (I think the saying goes) 'ride his ass' all the time. But it's damn hard to get fired at Australia Post. In all his time on earth though, he's travelled. A couple of years ago, he discovered Sri Lanka, the part that until recently was over run by Tamil Tigers. So that was a natural third step on his road to fulfilment. Hasn't been an easy journey. He went through a messy divorce about 5 years ago for instance...


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

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Re: money?
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2012, 06:26:05 am »
I have a friend whose father's career change meant leaving his professional job to sell fishing reels on the internet (eBay, etc.). From what he describes, he makes some pretty decent money fixing those things up (which he loves to do anyway) and loves chatting with his customers who share a similar passion. That man does not stop smiling. From what my friend tells me, that's a complete 180 for him.


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Re: money?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2012, 06:50:03 am »
Quote
---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- dude. Move to Australia! I'm a postman. I earn $22.40 an hour. After ONE year at most jobs in Australia, you are entitled to 4 weeks leave a year. That's pretty crap they treat you like that with all your qualification and experience with their equipment...

Well where Daywane works, there are probably not big spiders, poisonous snakes, bugs, malaria.  I'm sure it is fun walking around in 100+ degree weather with a nice and heavy pack on your back, or sloshing through the flood season in your waders.  I'm sure you have other pitfalls that you fail to mention, but $22.40 sounds like pretty good danger money to me.  I would need an air conditioned postal van first, and I would want a nice senior logistics position while you are at it. 

Sign me up!   :cheers:
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Re: money?
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2012, 06:56:03 am »
Money is only there to pay Pharmaceutical companies and Doctors. All other stuff we need is trade-able.