Sawstop

[kahlid74]

Holy crudmuffins have any of you seen this before?  It's fantastic and a great idea, using electricity to identify if the blade is coming in contact with a finger.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006G36VHG/

[HaRuMaN]

Yeah, it's been around a while.  Everytime it does its job (stops) you have to buy a new cartridge.  

I prefer to not stick my fingers in the blade and save myself $1500.

[kahlid74]

Yeah, but a cool concept none the less.  Never saw this before so my bad but just besting cool idea.

[Mysterioii]

Yeah I really think I first saw that like a decade ago, maybe more, but it's still a great idea (though I know where HaRuMan is coming from).  I'd only ever seen the hot dog demo though, never saw anyone use their real finger, so that was cool to see.  I also never saw the mechanism at work... I knew the blade dropped below the table but I didn't realize it had a metal boot engaging to bring it to a halt like that.  Neat.   

[selfie]

It's a great idea and a good thing to have but would it make you complacent around the saw and treat it without the respect it deserves?

[Le Chuck]

It's a great idea and a good thing to have but would it make you complacent around the saw and treat it without the respect it deserves?

Great idea, let's remove all safety levers from hand guns, all handrails from stairs, and make knife sheaths illegal because those safety measures are clearly causing more damage due to fostering complacency than saving people from occasional human error.  

While we're at it let's take away helmets from Soldiers, we wouldn't want them forgetting to duck now would we?

[drventure]

I don't think the replacement cost is 1500$. He comments in the video that the replaceable module is 60$ or did I mishear that?

Also, I'm pretty comfortable around most power tools (even routers), but table saws just give me the willies.

My dad was using one once, building furniture. He's +uber+ careful with tools, was using pushsticks, featherboards etc.

1 Freak accident later, he'd almost lost a finger.

I'm much more comfortable with a radial arm saw.

If I had the scratch, i'd probably get a SawStop.

Also, apparently they're now working on getting the same tech in other tools.

[selfie]

It's a great idea and a good thing to have but would it make you complacent around the saw and treat it without the respect it deserves?

Great idea, let's remove all safety levers from hand guns, all handrails from stairs, and make knife sheaths illegal because those safety measures are clearly causing more damage due to fostering complacency than saving people from occasional human error.  

While we're at it let's take away helmets from Soldiers, we wouldn't want them forgetting to duck now would we?

Don't get me wrong I'm not against the thing

[Le Chuck]

I'm not attacking, just think it's interesting that would even be a concern.  I know you phrased it as a question but I can't think of a single case where adding a passive saftey measure like this one has increased the rate of accidents. 

I take it back, just thought of one

Earplugs in combat, that's the only one.  Earplugs are awesome for the range and for the shop but out of the wire you need your ears.  But that's not really the same as this safety device only kicks in when needed.  Kinda like the awesome bose circuit assisted noise amplyfing but gunshot reducing headphones, which I will wear out of the wire because they kick ass so nevermind.  Back at zero.

Do you know anybody that has had a scare or worse with a tablesaw?  I do.  I'm willing to bet we all do, which means that complacency and accidents happen in the shop even with tablesaws in their current configuration.  Risk reduction will be a benefit to both the individual who values opening his ketchup bottles himself, and the tax payer who loves not paying a worker to have a nurse open his ketchup bottles. 

[TopJimmyCooks]

I brushed two fingertips on my table saw blade a few years back.  I had made an enclosed box and was in the process of cutting the top of it off.  Just a fleshwound.  I would have been pissed if it incurred a $250 penalty for a blade and a brake cartridge.  That said, if I was in the market for a $1500 table saw, I would consider it.  I've got kids, friends and I worry sometimes about my TS with no riving knife, guard, proper stop switch, etc. 

If you're going $1500 on a contractor saw, give it a look. 

[Unstupid]

I dunno... the first time I wore my bicycle helmet I went over the handlebars and almost broke my neck... I think knowing you are "safer" adds to complacency!

[TopJimmyCooks]

I see it as more like antilock brakes.  I'm not unplugging those anytime soon. 

[Unstupid]

Nah it's more like airbags... 1 and done!  But thats why people drive crazy!  People are more likely to survive car accidents because our cars are so safe.  That safe feeling allows people to fly down the freeway at 85mph while drinking their venti cafe mocha and talking on their phone at the same time!

[TopJimmyCooks]

Thats a better analogy. true.  I'm still not unplugging the airbags.  I don't think I would change my behavior if I was using an SS ts, but it could be an issue for newbs coming up these days.  just like the car safety thing with young kids. 

[Sparkolicious]

congress wanted to make this technology mandatory on all table saws...

[selfie]

My concern would be someone being taught on this type of saw and feeling it is a "safe" tool and then using a saw without this.

[Le Chuck]

I take it you guys haven't seen the new version that doesn't require a break or a blade replacement.  It zaps the motor with a shot of reverse current strong enough to make the motor stop dead in it's tracks without causing damage to the system or the blade.  It's been tested but the kits aren't available for retrofitting yet.  That's right, retrofitting.  I'll dig up a link.

As for how fast people drive I think that has more to do with the capability of the machine and the condition of the roads rather than the safety features of the vehicle.  Motorcycles drive like bats outta hell and they know they're instant roadkill on the freeway. 

Selfie, I can understand the concern of a person used to a safe-saw using a current style saw but I make sure that I know how a power tool works before I pick it up, hopefully the new generation of crafters will be taught as I was.  Even better they should be taught that every saw is an "old" saw and the way you treat a safe-saw is no different than the way you operate a current one. 

[yaksplat]

I'd have rather dropped $60 extra than done this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yaksplat/6946139636/#

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yaksplat/7092207325/#

click at your own risk 

although the freud blade that did this was just a few days old, so it was nice and sharp. Oh, and that was back in 03, it grew back.

[Le Chuck]

Whirlwind Blade Brake.  It's homepage is Whirlwind Tool

Here's an article with a video.  Linky-dinky  This is the one I'll probably go with once they start making the kits available. 

[kahlid74]

Whew lots of replies!  For me, I guess I was just oblivious to this type of stuff existing.  I try to be careful around power tools but his just seems like the natural next step.  Personally I wouldn't be any less careful around said power tools with this but I would feel safer knowing my son or wife couldn't hurt themselves.  As my son grows older I'm going to have to find ways to protect all of my power tools from his possession until he's ready to be responsible and respectful to them.

I don't get some of the other analogies.  I don't drive crazy because I have airbags.  I drive crazy because I think I'm disillusioned into thinking I'm a NASCAR driver and that I've got to get from point A to Point B as fast as possible.  The driving thing is more a problem with society and not how safe our cars are.

The whirlwind tech is cool but doesn't act as fast.  It's 1/8 of a second where as the Saw stop is 1/1000.  1/8 of a second can take a good chunk of your finger if you're going fast enough right?

Either way, very cool idea and makes me thinking about it for my workshop.

[wp34]

I had a little incident with a table saw recently -

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116519.msg1254189#msg1254189

That first time I used the saw after the accident I was a little nervous but that was it.  I will say that since I was using the saw in an unsafe manner this close call was all it took for me to be more careful from here on out.     

I would feel safer having the Sawstop but also don't understand the analogies that it would make one more careless.  I think it is a natural survival instinct to want to be careful around sharp (fast moving) objects.  The $60 cost of resetting the saw would be enough for me to stay careful. 

[Le Chuck]

Whew lots of replies!  For me, I guess I was just oblivious to this type of stuff existing.  I try to be careful around power tools but his just seems like the natural next step.  Personally I wouldn't be any less careful around said power tools with this but I would feel safer knowing my son or wife couldn't hurt themselves.  As my son grows older I'm going to have to find ways to protect all of my power tools from his possession until he's ready to be responsible and respectful to them.

I don't get some of the other analogies.  I don't drive crazy because I have airbags.  I drive crazy because I think I'm disillusioned into thinking I'm a NASCAR driver and that I've got to get from point A to Point B as fast as possible.  The driving thing is more a problem with society and not how safe our cars are.

The whirlwind tech is cool but doesn't act as fast.  It's 1/8 of a second where as the Saw stop is 1/1000.  1/8 of a second can take a good chunk of your finger if you're going fast enough right?

Either way, very cool idea and makes me thinking about it for my workshop.

1/8 second from sensor contact which is on the guard.  There is no blade contact shutoff so by the time you get your hand under the guard it's off.  If you remove the guard you removed the safety and you're on your own.  It's not as "failsafe" as saw stop but I think it is adequate... plus you can use dado blades with it

[HaRuMaN]

I don't think the replacement cost is 1500$.

The saw is close to $2000, my table saw was maybe $500?  Hence the $1500 savings by not sticking my fingers in the blade.

[DaOld Man]

My concern would be that the electronics work every time. Does this thing have self checkers? After a few months of constant vibration and dust, I would be weary of the thing working when really needed.
Also the guy puts his finger into the blade in a controlled slow way, if it didnt work for him it would have probably only resulted in a flesh wound, since he knew what was going on and was ready to pull back. Even with the system working correctly, I wonder how deep the blade would cut before the electronics and mechanics kick in if you stuck a finger in there fast and unknowingly? I think this is how most fingers get cut off anyway. Im sure it would leave a shallow cut, but a shallow cut is a thousand times better than a sever.
Plus I could see a big problem with this if the wood is damp or has sweat on it, one false trigger and your job stops until you get another saw or replace the module.
But I like the concept.

[TopJimmyCooks]

If whirlwind can get it on a guard that lowers/raises better than 2 thumbscrews/knobs, they're on to something.  If the guard was raised lowered by hand with maybe a lockdown lever or something, it would be very usable, and makes it very idiot proof.  Hey teach, the saw keeps shutting off, well, don't touch the guard.  I wonder if something could be done with a proximity reader and maybe a fingerless glove with an rfid or something, so you get proximity shutoff without contact.  Tech is probably not there yet to shape and control the field.  Can RFID do anything with a gradient of signal (like maybe a visible metering of how close you are to the signal generator? 

Couldn't be retrofit but it seems easy to stop a sawblade by putting a flywheel/brake rotor and an electrically actuated brake caliper. it's so much less mass being stopped than say, a car or bike, it could be fairly tiny. 

[yaksplat]

On a tablesaw with a 44 tooth blade spinning at 3650 rpm, a 1/8 second stop means that 5 teeth will contact your skin before the blade stops, or 45 degrees of travel.

Same scenario with a .001 second stop means that .05 teeth will come in contact with your skin, or .37 degrees of travel.

Both will keep you from losing a finger.  But one leaves you with a minor cut.

[GregD]

Many tablesaw accidents occur because people use cheap table saws with cheap fences.  Cheap fences cannot be calibrated and deflect too much.  Also a good splitter is essential (or riving knife).  Other than that, good safety precautions always help.  Keep your fingers away from the blade and don't stand direct behind the cut.  Sawstop was rumored to be coming out with a contractor saw as well.  Not sure if they ever did.  Edit:  Looks like they did and they are only $1600.  No thanks.  I am buying a cabinet saw for that money.

[Le Chuck]

I think the capacitive edge along the guard would be very reliable as it is coupled with dust abatement keeping it clear of small debris.  I like that it will get false stops, I want it to be sensitive, and I like that all you have to do is flip a switch to get rolling again. Because it is so easy to reset I would probably test the guard stop sensor at the start of every day I use the saw.  I also like the LED array in the guard focusing light onto the blade.  I'm a little miffed that the whirlwind guys are wanting to sell their patents and get somebody else to do the production work because they're old... and I'm also miffed that they won't release the diagrams to make your own for the DIY'ers out there.  It just seems counter intuitive that they are doing this from a humanitarian standpoint of wanting to save lifes and limbs but won't do a small start-up themselves, and are holding out for a paycheck.  

There are two sides to that argument but I wonder what the guy missing a finger because he fell would feel about their unwillingness to get the tech out on the market.  

[Sparkolicious]

I don't know.. The first thing I do with a new table saw is remove the guard.  It gets in the way...

[wp34]

The only time I've ever seen a table saw with a guard is in the store.  I'm not sure I'd be comfortable using one with a guard.

I don't know.. The first thing I do with a new table saw is remove the guard.  It gets in the way...

[GregD]

I don't know.. The first thing I do with a new table saw is remove the guard.  It gets in the way...

I do as well but I always use a drop in splitter.  I use an MJ splitter.  They are simple and work well.

[yaksplat]

I remove the guard, and leave the splitter.

[kahlid74]

I use the guard and the splitter but I'm not as skilled at woodworking as all of you so yeah.

[EvilNuff]

The table saw is the most dangerous tool in a wood shop bar none.  What makes it so dangerous is the simple fact that you cannot predict how wood will react to being cut.  The saw is spinning up and towards you, as wood is cut it can and will move, this can and *will* eventually cause kickback.  No matter how careful you are the simple fact is, it is extremely easy for an unintended movement of wood to put your hand in contact with the blade. 

Let me repeat that, no matter how careful you are, with a table saw it is *always* a possibility that an accident can happen regardless of your safety procedures. 

Think about that, and think about how much your fingers are worth to you.  First off $1.5k difference is absolutely dirt cheap compared to the degree of safety this provides.  Second, there exists no table saw on the market that is comparable in quality to even the cheapest saw stop.  A $500 saw is a direct drive contractor saw, the saw stop is a cast iron top with a real, belt driven motor.  Not even a real comparison there.

[Sparkolicious]

Let me repeat that, no matter how careful you are, with a table saw it is *always* a possibility that an accident can happen regardless of your safety procedures. 

This is true with any tool you use.   

[kahlid74]

I get what you're saying with kickback EvilNuff but I have to disagree because it depends on what type of wood you're cutting.  Cutting a 2x2 foot sheet of MDF in half with a sharp blade makes it literally impossible to pull my hand from the sides into the blade.  Logistically wise I'd have to go twelve inches side ways on a blade that is fixed forward.  It's just very unlikely likely to happen.

I still hold true to a router being the devil in power tool clothes.  Awesomely powerful and dangerously deceptive.

[GregD]

 I am confident when using my saw.  I know it isn't underpowered.  I dont rush things and I let the blade do the work.  I keep it well tuned and I employ tools to make it safer like push sticks, splitters, and a cross cut sled.  The router is used as a handheld tool only when absolutely necessary.  I like routing on my table where there is dust collection and plenty of t channel for feather boards.