Awards Project

[Le Chuck]

Okay so a few of us have started bouncing around ideas to recognize BYOACs for contributions to the hobby.  This is different than the Hall of Fame because it could be done by category and will have a cleaner presentation.

I'm thinking that this would be done in three phases:

1)Nominations:  30 days thread window for projects/hacks/cabs/code given to the community within a certain timeframe.  Any user can nominate in any category providing the nominated project meets the criteria

2)Consideration by a yet to be determined counsel of members

3)Presentation of winners and runner up with critique of practices, implimentation, and lessons learned

Any interest?

[Le Chuck]

List of potential categories:

Standard size cabinet
Cocktail
Bartop
Mini
Fightstick
Non Standard (think DrVenture's Arquadium)
Hack or Mod
Art
Lighting
Theme
How-to thread
Utility (code)
Automation
Refurb
Contribution to the Forum (kinda like a lifetime achievement type deal)
Wiring
Built

[jimmy2x2x]

Love it!

Would like to see a rat-cab category, cabs build for peanuts with what you have lying around.

[ark_ader]

Totally! 

[Le Chuck]

Rat-cab is a sweet idea, i love those sleeper builds that come out of nowhere for pennies.  

I'm thinking a gold space invader and a silver space invader icon for awards.  Nothing too flashy, small icon, little 3D effect, that's all.  All winners get the same icon and they are free to use it in their posts/signatures as they see fit or not at all.  

I'm also thinking about creating a user profile just for the project so it isn't tied to anyone and council members share that user profile for posting during phase two and three.  That way it isn't Le Chuck giving some guy an award but this non entity X.  After the council is desolved the council chair would change the password and bed the profile until the next time.  If the council chair passes the gavel he just passes the profile at the same time so the project can have legs so to speak.    

[DaveMMR]

I think it is a very good idea except maybe also have an All-Around Best Project category akin to "Best Picture". And the one thing about the old Mameys was there there was much predictability. The wide array of categories does indeed remedy this a little bit. Also, it always looked like there was only one entry with split opinions instead of a larger pool of entries narrowed down by voting. Will you be highlighting (albeit to a lesser extent) the runner-ups?

[Howard_Casto]

I had a different idea of what you wanted when you suggested this in another thread.  I thought you wanted to review all cabinets (or all that are submitted, whatever) and give awards to those who were reviewed the highest, not seek out cabinets just to point out how great they are.  

IMHO it's only useful if it is explained, in detail WHY they are great.  Saying "The artwork is great, so I liked it"  simply isn't enough.  Things have to be picked apart in explained like the button placement or the layout in general... the overall functionality of the cab, asthetic things like the bezel to monitor ratio and other annoyingly boring things like that.  In terms of look artistically minded people can understand why one cab looks great and another doesn't instinctually, those who don't have that gift, unfortunately need their hand held a little more.  If you goal really is to educate, then you need to review.

Think of a game review... a game review isn't "I liked this game so we'll rate it highly" or "This game sucked... 0 out 5 "  they go into detail about all the things right and all the things wrong with the game both from an artistic standpoint and a technical standpoint.  Professional game critics don't just review the good games either, they review as many as they can.

[Howard_Casto]

Actually, I would suggest a 20 point scale.  Every cab, prior to review has an automatic 10.... that's just for having a functional mame cab.  After that, one point is deducated for any "errors" in the design or execution and one point is added for anything that was done exceptionally well or any unique and well done features. 

So most of your cabs would fall in the 8-12 range.. definately nothing to be ashamed of, but nothing all that special either.  Your award winning cabs would be in the 15-20 range with 5 -10 really good things unqiue to the cab, your "cautionary tales" cabs would be 5 or below. 

And let me tell you getting below a 5 would be damned near impossible.... I know we rag on some of these strange ebay finds, but most of them don't have more than 2 or 3 things wrong with them.

[Le Chuck]

I didn't start this thread because I had a master plan thought out but because the idea came up and I thought it warranted further separate discussion so any and all recommendations are welcome. 

The panel/counsel/reviewers would need a guideline by which to review the project and that guideline shouldn't be a secret.  The identity of the lead reviewer for a category should be if only to protect the reviewer from putting up with disenting opion in other threads.

Whether that is a point system or some other scale is up for debate.  I don't really envision this as a game style review.  For one, the forum serves that purpose on it's own already in my opinion.  Page views, comments, and longeivity, and questions asked by other users tell the builder and everyone else how their cab has been received.  For two this project would be an assload of work for some dedicated volunteers for a few weeks every year.  I don't see the utility of having it be an all the time thing here on the forum.  If somebody wanted to start a cab review website then by all means but I personally wouldn't submit my own cab for outside grading (yes I know that's exactly what I do by submitting here but it is inherently different).

I see huge value in going to a thread that has good analytical review of what is right with some projects, how it was done, and how it pushes the hobby forward so if a new user is interested in light up buttons he can go to the 2011 Lighting Awards link on the X stickied thread and see how and why it was done well. 

I absolutely support indept analysis of runners up because the main idea would be to distill the best practices of a certain category into one location. 

In the end this is a form of incentivising thread documentation and compilation.  If it can generate the spread of how to that is ideal. 
 

[Generic Eric]

So this would be like the MAMEY?  I've submitted stuff to them, but didn't get an acknowledgment that it was received.  It made me wonder how active that was.

[AtomSmasher]

So this would be like the MAMEY?  I've submitted stuff to them, but didn't get an acknowledgment that it was received.  It made me wonder how active that was.

I don't think the Mamey's have been active since 2009.

http://mameys.arcadecontrols.com/awards.html

[Le Chuck]

Mamey = fried chicken

Besides, I'm with Dave, they tended towards the predictable but yes, this gets to a similar end as the Mamey but I think can provide a secondary service and if we tie it into the forum perhaps it can have sustainability.    

Edit:

I went back through the Mamey site and there are a lot of comments like this:

...it is a modification on the original cocktail design, plus it's like a freaky transformer, and it's shiny.

Which is fun, and totally true, but isn't how the judge's commentary would need to be to have the project be educational.  The cab referenced in that quote is Pott's cocktail.  It's stunning, but it's a cocktail with one side by side CP eliminating cocktail mode from a cocktail.  Does that make or break it, no, but it should be referenced and the pros and cons should be considered.  Same deal with the some of the button placements.  What happens when we judge <academically weigh the merits of> this cocktail against other cocktails?  That sort of review might give a browsing forum member the springboard to go into unknown territory that can split the difference between Pott's great build and a more classic cocktail build that is equally well executed.      

[DaveMMR]

I went back through the Mamey site and there are a lot of comments like this:

...it is a modification on the original cocktail design, plus it's like a freaky transformer, and it's shiny.

Which is fun, and totally true, but isn't how the judge's commentary would need to be to have the project be educational.  The cab referenced in that quote is Pott's cocktail.  It's stunning, but it's a cocktail with one side by side CP eliminating cocktail mode from a cocktail.  Does that make or break it, no, but it should be referenced and the pros and cons should be considered.  Same deal with the some of the button placements.  What happens when we judge <academically weigh the merits of> this cocktail against other cocktails?  That sort of review might give a browsing forum member the springboard to go into unknown territory that can split the difference between Pott's great build and a more classic cocktail build that is equally well executed.      

It's funny, but I think half the criticism levied against it would be negated by reclassifying it as a unique candy cab as opposed to a cocktail. But, yes, that type of critique was something I had in mind and not just focusing on the pretty colors. And it's funny you mentioned the button placement, that's the first thing I saw (the two random buttons towards the bottom of the panel). It's those little things that really separate the good cabs from the great cabs and should be explored, explaining why it may detract from the design.

(BTW: Not trying to take away anything from Pott's award. It is definitely deserving.)

[Le Chuck]

Dave, I'm right there with you.  It's too easy to pick apart an average cab or a bad cab and say this could be done better.  The builder is probably sitting back saying "No ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- sherlock, this is my first time, how about some slack" but I think that taking what the community says are a lot of great cabs or ideas and looking at them against each other give us a chance to say "this method of mounting speakers gives a much cleaner appearance" or "This is a great example of a cheap home made marquee retainer that looks professional and doesn't at all detract from the cab"

The community doesn't need a counsel to make those judgements on their behalf but it will localize a lot of good information and it will help our all star builders consider different ways of doing things... maybe somebody will even agree and decide to improve their cab and get even more enjoyment out of it. 

I was contemplating whether the first cycle of this should go all the way back to antiquity or just pick up with the last 12 months.  I'm really thinking that to be manageable and contemporary that we can't go any further back then about two years and after that pick up on a yearly type cycle. 

[DaveMMR]

I was contemplating whether the first cycle of this should go all the way back to antiquity or just pick up with the last 12 months.  I'm really thinking that to be manageable and contemporary that we can't go any further back then about two years and after that pick up on a yearly type cycle. 

I'm actually on the fence as well.  It would be cool to look at some of the most noteworthy projects of all time and re-examine them, including some really groundbreaking projects like PacMamea, Neon Mame or Roswell 88201, but would it be a pain to manage or unfair to the newer projects?

[yaksplat]

So, Group 1, pre-2011
Group 2, 2011

[Donkbaca]

No need to revisit the old ones, that's what the HOF thread is for.

I think a yearly one is a good idea, could get some of the old farts on here that haven't built anything in a while to actually build again, could inspire creativity, etc.

Here is my criticism of your list though -

Standard size cabinet
Cocktail
Bartop
Mini

I think that most are standard sized cabinets, not that many cocktails get built, I would have maybe best standard size - CRT, best Standard sized - LCD and then non-standard sized cab.

Fightstick

I don't see a lot of fight stick builds, and this is more of a Shoryuken sort of thing.

Non Standard (think DrVenture's Arquadium)

I like this one, for things like the Doc Venture's and coffee table builds and the armoirecade.  At one point, Knievels woody would have been here, and now its almost standard.

Hack or Mod

I find the hacks and mods the most entertaining and informative of all posts and the most interesting projects

Art
Lighting
Theme

I could do without these.Or maybe just have a theme category, as that incorporates the other two.

How-to thread

I could do without this, since there is a ton of stuff already out there and on the wiki.  Anything that is new and cool and documented would likely fall into another category

Utility (code)

This would be cool

Automation

In my mind a part of the hack/mod category

Refurb

More of a KLOV thing in my opinion.  Not that interested

Contribution to the Forum (kinda like a lifetime achievement type deal)

dig this

Wiring
Built

Best wiring - I am on the face about.  What do you mean by built? I think there should be a "build thread of the year" award.  Well documented build threads are great.

I think there should also be a Cab of the YEar.

I don't think we need that many categories though.  THere really aren't that many builds, maybe 3 - 6 a month or so that get documented.  With that many categories it would feel like handing out little league trophies.

[Le Chuck]

Donkbaca +1

Good recommendations.  I notice when I write I tend to zap all the fun out of anything and turn it into some sort of dreary academic pursuit, and while this has a component of this it also needs to be interesting and amusing.  I can get behind most of your category recommendations.  Definetly don't want this to be a participation award.  I still like the idea of splitting up the cab builds, how about this

Standard
Cocktail and Bartop -I'm torn about combining these.  Leave it to smarter bodies to determine
Non Standard - cabs more easily defined by what they aren't (jukes in here as well?)
Hack or Mod - wiz mini's, automation elements, controller creations like the new 720 joy, or the OND/secretsquirrel button mods for example
Theme - aestics, visual balance
Implementation - CP and lighting wiring, LED integration, woodcraft/joinery, plexi work, technique award for a whole build or a portion of a build worth highlighting
Utility - this can be a peice of code (DaOld Man and Nitz come to my mind) or can be a service or product that really enables the hobby also (Breakout cables or even button decals)
Contribution - helpful forum members recognized for their dedicated commitment to lending a hand.   

I'm not really for an overall best cab personally but if the "academy" decided that one project takes the cake overall then whom am I to gainsay.  I think it should be a year to year decision, kinda like an extra.  If there is a project that crosses several categories and doesn't necessarily win any specific one but deserves recognition that would be awesome.   

I agree to just start with 2011 and let the HOF take care of those further back only because there is no way we could do justice to the older builds. 

I'm also not sold on a "winner." Maybe after nominations the committee select the three or four best and presents them ensemble as most influential of 2011 in <Category>.

I'm also keeping an eye on the ticker up top showing how many people don't think this is a good idea.  I don't want to help create anything that is going to alienate anyone but I know you can't please all of the people all of the time. 

[Donkbaca]

I could get behind that.  Maybe instead of awards, do a "best of the year" thread

[Le Chuck]

I could get behind that.  Maybe instead of awards, do a "best of the year" thread

I'm down.  We should clean up the definitions of the categories.  Anybody care to take a stab at one or all? 

There needs to be conversation about the logistics of phase two.  After nominations how are reviewers invited/selected/nominated?  Do they get a private thread like PnR to discuss the builds or just do it though PM?  I think nominating reviews is fair and probably a best practice.  Do they have to be seconded?  Do we cut off a 5 or 10?  Hrm...

[jimmy2x2x]

I like the idea of public nomination open to all members (maybe 6 months old+)

nominees could then complete a template of the cab, something like

side profile shot
front profile shot
3/4 view
control panel
and 3 user shots, highlighting best features - art, wiring, automation etc
and optional video

this would be a nice showcase of the work presented in a uniformed style

once all nominated templates are complete, public voting to decide the winner

[DaveMMR]

So idea - feel free to like on it or hate on it:

If at all possible, it'd be cool to have a separate forum (that's something up to Saint, of course), with a stickied topic explaining the criteria.  Individual threads would be cab/project nominations (and for which category/ies it would be nominated for).  Members could then post a synopsis, weighing it's strengths and maybe pointing out some weaknesses and then assign a score value*.  Commenting on or arguing with other people's synopsis/review would be strictly verboten.  After a year or so, we gather those nominees, and announce winners in a special thread or other section.  Maybe a special token or something for their profile could be awarded.  This way, everyone's involved and it's easy to find.

(* I actually kind of dug Howard's scoring system; I gave my own cab an 8 due to unfortunate painting issues. But whatever would work.)

[Generic Eric]

How about a submission/verification process.  Here is what I am thinking.

By submitting a project to a special sub-forum, the Builder agrees to a specific level of criticism.  The project announcements thread should exist the way it is.

The submitter must declare type of project (Upright, cocktail, Cockpit, etc)

A baseline criteria for each type of project is predefined.  Such as the "Project Arcade cabinet." For example, to eliminate "gotcha's" specify that you can't have a 27" wide cabinet with a 15" monitor.

Let's not have a rust bucket with mis-matched VIN @ the Barrett Jackson auction.

[Vigo]

The only way I would be down with an official best of is if it was open to any members voting anonymously. I think a judging panel or an elite circle of experts would ruin it for me. At the same time, I don't want people with low post counts to feel like their opinion isn't as valuable.

As far as categories go, my only category nomination is best "new feature" I think there are original brilliant idea's out there that inevitably get copied and improved upon. Which is great! We should build off each other's ideas.   I just think it is appropriate to have a category to give recognition to the person who started and inspired that great idea. Even though other people came along and put it into sexier machines.

I also like Dave's profile token idea for award winning cabs.  

[drventure]

Sounds cool to me, but what do you do about all the really cool multi-year projects running around? 

Or did I miss that in the thread?

[DaveMMR]

Sounds cool to me, but what do you do about all the really cool multi-year projects running around? 

I suppose whenever it's officially complete would be when it's eligible.

[Le Chuck]

Sounds cool to me, but what do you do about all the really cool multi-year projects running around? 

I suppose whenever it's officially complete would be when it's eligible.

^+1

The only way I would be down with an official best of is if it was open to any members voting anonymously. I think a judging panel or an elite circle of experts would ruin it for me. At the same time, I don't want people with low post counts to feel like their opinion isn't as valuable.

+1.  I would amend this to be:  winner are determined by open forum voting.  Commentary on winners should be done by nominated commentators so that there is some standardization. 

How about a submission/verification process.  Here is what I am thinking.

By submitting a project to a special sub-forum, the Builder agrees to a specific level of criticism.  The project announcements thread should exist the way it is.

The submitter must declare type of project (Upright, cocktail, Cockpit, etc)

A baseline criteria for each type of project is predefined.  Such as the "Project Arcade cabinet." For example, to eliminate "gotcha's" specify that you can't have a 27" wide cabinet with a 15" monitor.

Let's not have a rust bucket with mis-matched VIN @ the Barrett Jackson auction.

I am more for the community nominating builds so it's more popular and ties into a best of year X type of deal.  A lot of projects exist in this state on Project Announce I think.

So idea - feel free to like on it or hate on it:

If at all possible, it'd be cool to have a separate forum (that's something up to Saint, of course), with a stickied topic explaining the criteria.  Individual threads would be cab/project nominations (and for which category/ies it would be nominated for).  Members could then post a synopsis, weighing it's strengths and maybe pointing out some weaknesses and then assign a score value*.  Commenting on or arguing with other people's synopsis/review would be strictly verboten.  After a year or so, we gather those nominees, and announce winners in a special thread or other section.  Maybe a special token or something for their profile could be awarded.  This way, everyone's involved and it's easy to find.

(* I actually kind of dug Howard's scoring system; I gave my own cab an 8 due to unfortunate painting issues. But whatever would work.)

Open voting combined with closed doors analysis/proof reading of commentary and/or post layout with the final open reveal of winners with the "expert (snicker) commentary" ? 

Jimmy, the builder will definitely be pestered for more information. 

[Howard_Casto]

I think the community should be involved in terms of bringing attention to cabs that might otherwise be over-looked, but their involvement shouldn't be absolute. 

A good cab might not be a popular cab and vice versa..... at some point there is going to have to be some sort of panel... even a ridiculously huge panel that says "no this one doesn't qualify" or "even though nobody mentioned this cab, it's outstanding and we should put it up for review".

Because if we are only going to review via which one is the most popular then one could simply write a script to tally the most viewed cabs/cab threads and be done with it. 


That's why I kind of suggested that every cab be reviewed..... to make sure.  It wouldn't have to be a deal where the reviews were publically seen.... it's just every cab needs to at least be glanced at. 


 

[Le Chuck]

I think the community should be involved in terms of bringing attention to cabs that might otherwise be over-looked, but their involvement shouldn't be absolute. 

I agree.

A good cab might not be a popular cab and vice versa..... at some point there is going to have to be some sort of panel... even a ridiculously huge panel that says "no this one doesn't qualify" or "even though nobody mentioned this cab, it's outstanding and we should put it up for review".

A small (5 to 10 member) panel could thin the nominations down to a manageable representative number while having the authority to include any non recommended gems that they see fit. 

Because if we are only going to review via which one is the most popular then one could simply write a script to tally the most viewed cabs/cab threads and be done with it. 

That's why I kind of suggested that every cab be reviewed..... to make sure.  It wouldn't have to be a deal where the reviews were publically seen.... it's just every cab needs to at least be glanced at. 

I think that for cabs as a finished product it is feasible for the aforementioned panel to take a look at whatever was finished in 2011 for instance but I don't think they can accurately tackle the entire list of categories we've presented.  Perhaps that isn't necessary tho.  Individual panel members will likely have good representative examples for each category in mind when they come to the table.  If they don't see those examples among the BYOAC community recommended then the onus is on the panel member to bring that up for internal review and possible addition. 

I make it sound like a damn inquisition but I am really trying to help design something useful and simple.  If it's a nine to five job to serve as a panel member ain't nobody going to accept their nomination.   

[Generic Eric]

Give this link a check  http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=1850.0  Its the top 20 on "The Way I Play" forum. 

[yotsuya]

Until Vigo builds the Urkelcade, these awards won't mean a damn thing!

[leapinlew]

Mamey = fried chicken

Besides, I'm with Dave, they tended towards the predictable but yes, this gets to a similar end as the Mamey but I think can provide a secondary service and if we tie it into the forum perhaps it can have sustainability.    

Edit:

I went back through the Mamey site and there are a lot of comments like this:

...it is a modification on the original cocktail design, plus it's like a freaky transformer, and it's shiny.

Which is fun, and totally true, but isn't how the judge's commentary would need to be to have the project be educational.  The cab referenced in that quote is Pott's cocktail.  It's stunning, but it's a cocktail with one side by side CP eliminating cocktail mode from a cocktail.  Does that make or break it, no, but it should be referenced and the pros and cons should be considered.  Same deal with the some of the button placements.  What happens when we judge <academically weigh the merits of> this cocktail against other cocktails?  That sort of review might give a browsing forum member the springboard to go into unknown territory that can split the difference between Pott's great build and a more classic cocktail build that is equally well executed.      

Are you suggesting the judges should have taken a more pragmatic approach to the nominees? The Mameys are supposed to be just a fun award system based on the opinion of a few guys. I think the comment you quoted by Zakk is fine. It's fun and not serious. It's not like people were lined up to discuss the pros and cons of a build.

[shmokes]

What's the point when we all know that there is one particular cab, a long time in the making but recently finished, that will sweep every single category.   

[Le Chuck]

Are you suggesting the judges should have taken a more pragmatic approach to the nominees? The Mameys are supposed to be just a fun award system based on the opinion of a few guys. I think the comment you quoted by Zakk is fine. It's fun and not serious. It's not like people were lined up to discuss the pros and cons of a build.

No, the Mamey's were great and highlighted some really awesome builds in a fun way.  If the group was still active I doubt this conversation would be happening in the same manner.  I think that if something like the Mamey is to be resurrected it's worth discussing a more pragmatic approach.  We're not carving in stone here.  My use of Zakk's quote was to illustrate a different approach and not critize a past event. 

I am definetely not trying to put the Mameys on trial but as you're a [former?] Judge I am very much interested in your opinion and recommended approach. 

[Le Chuck]

What's the point when we all know that there is one particular cab, a long time in the making but recently finished, that will sweep every single category.   

I like OND's cab too, it's cool and orange and curvy and immaculately built, but there is a lot out there that is just as ground breaking as far as builds are concerned.  I think that he has relied heavily on DaOld Man's plugins and previous work for his rotation, I think that while his button mod is pretty fantastic it was been improved upon since by Secret Squirrel and FrancoB's are completly off the chain.  So yeah him done good but there is plenty of great stuff worth recognizing. 

Unless you were talking about the Urkelcade too, in which case I have no argument. 

[Generic Eric]

I imagined him referring to Pixelhugger's Mission Control
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=13118.0

[DaveMMR]

Yeah, I think what Le Chuck is suggesting (and, in a roundabout way, the core of Howard's original thread) is more about seeing WHY great cabs are great or how good cabs could become better. We look at some projects and admire their attractiveness - but it'd be nice to see if "this", "this" and "that" works for everyone? What problems would it present? Why was something done extremely well? What problems were overcome? Etc, etc. etc.

[Le Chuck]

I imagined him referring to Pixelhugger's Mission Control
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=13118.0

Love this build.  Love the video even more. 

Yeah, I think what Le Chuck is suggesting (and, in a roundabout way, the core of Howard's original thread) is more about seeing WHY great cabs are great or how good cabs could become better. We look at some projects and admire their attractiveness - but it'd be nice to see if "this", "this" and "that" works for everyone? What problems would it present? Why was something done extremely well? What problems were overcome? Etc, etc. etc.

+1.  DaveMMR is now my official interpreter.

[CheffoJeffo]

One thing that I think the new folks may not be aware of is the total trainwreck that the HoF became. It seemed to generate a lot more negative energy than CrapMAME ever has. Nice idea, but always seemed to fall apart and cause problems. The existing HoF in the wiki doesn't seem to suffer the same problems, likely because people don't take the time to check the wiki and take less time to edit.

The MAMEys were fun and, like things like this should be, judged by a small group of people who didn't take things too seriously. And I'm not just saying that so I won't get kicked out of the fort.

[jimmy2x2x]

Who else is going to be in the 'small group' of judges?

Will you be voting behind closed doors, or will we be able to see how you score things?