Sai's PinCade project [Planning phase]

[Saicho]

First off; Hi!  
I've been browsing the forums for a while now and recently decided I want to start on my first arcade cab.

Reason
Even though my carpenting skills SUCK and I'm really lazy... I's all about the dream of owning my own arcade! I've sunk in alot of quarters back in the first SF2 machines and had quite a lot of consoles over the year, but in 2010 I went to Japan and totally fell in love again with the arcades! There I decided I would make this thing a reality before my 30th birthday (27jan 2013) and here we are:applaud:

Games
I love old and new arcade games, but also love lightgun games and pinball machines. To name a few genres/games I would love on my arcade:
- 2d fighting games (sf2, neogeo fighting games)
- 3d fighting games (ultimate marvel vs capcom 3, sf4)
- Beat 'em ups (final fight, double dragon, streets of rage)
- Sidescrolling shooters (Gun Smoke, Metal Slug)
- Vertical shooters (Ikaruga, Raiden games)
- Lightgun shooters (Time Crisis, House of the Dead)
- Pinball (Visual pinball, future pinball, pinball fx 2)
- Dance games (DDR, Pop 'n Music, Space Channel 5)
- Other classics (pacman, space invaders)

Systems
Seeing games like Tekken 6 and Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom are not available on pc nor fully emulated I decided on 2 machines:
- PC (fast one)
- PS3
And 32" LED lcd screen would be nice.

Controls
- 2 played dedicated control panel.
- 2 seperate "snap on" boards for 4 player action (optional)
- 2 lightguns
- pinball controls: 1 (or 2) buttons on each side for pinball control and in front some buttons.
- maybe some ddr mats stashed away some where ;P

Design
So it feels like there are 3 options for me for the cab. I'll also mention some pro's and con's for each.

1. Dedicated standup arcade and dedicated digital pinball machines.
+ best experience and looks awesome
- really expensive and takes up a lot of space (which I don't have)

1a. Make a traditional standup arcade now and in the future think about the digital pinball machine
1b. Make a traditional digital pinball machine now and in the future think about the standup arcade

2. Arcade machine with means to rotate the screen
+ best for most games
- up ward pinball experience and sore neck when playing for long periods?

3. Pinball machine with means to rotate the screen with adjustable front legs
+ Unique look with sit down arcade experience and is (ofc) best for pinball experience (all though it's a bit higher)
- doesn't look like a arcade and lightgun games played sitting down?

I haven't found any option 3 examples so I made a (crappy looking) one with SketchUp:


Latest concept version:
Mini-PinCade


At the moment all 3 are viable options for me, but I'm wondering if option 3 is really something I should think about seeing as no one else made one (that I can find)... Is it a unique design that might work? Or is it something that's been thought about by others, but just isn't really good due to various reasons?

Sooo... Before I continue planning/designing my arcade machine I guess the question for now is:

Is my "PinCade" design a viable option? :-)

-edit-
Spellcheck and added the 1a and 1b

-edit2-
12jan2012: Decided to go for option 3! Changed subject from "Sai's first (Pin?)Cade project" to "Sai's PinCade project [Planning phase]" and added latest concept picture to main post.
15jan2012: Added latest concept pictures.
22feb2012: Bought a 23" 16:9 Dell U2312HM. Thinking about a mini-pincade or just a "simple" mini-pin. Added latest concept version.

[drventure]

First off, Welcome aboard!

About the design. I love the idea, and a pin cabinet should have plenty of space for something like that.

The only downside I can think of is that most pin bodies are tilted forward, but you wouldn't want the control panel or the screen tilted when playing traditional arcade games.

You could raise and lower the back end, I suppose. Not sure how else you might address it. Leaving the table completely flat would yield something that, i suspect, wouldn't look right as a pin.

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses!

[GregD]

Yes.  They are traditionally angled forward but only because real pins rely on gravity to get the ball to the flippers.  Since there is nothing traditional about your project anyways I wouldn't worry about it.  This is outside the box and I hope you get it off the ground.  Good luck.

[Saicho]

Thanks for the welcome

And yes, the front legs will have to be adjustable so i can put the table in Pinball mode (tilted) and arcade mode (straight). Because the backboard will only be used in pinball mode that one should be tilted aswell so that the screen is lined up properly when playing. I'm still not sure what height range can/should be of the front legs for a good feeling.

Also I should add an a) and b) to option one. Build either one now and another one later. I'll edit that one in right now.

GregD

Since there is nothing traditional about your project anyways I wouldn't worry about it.

That's also one of the things that keeps me from all out going for option 3. Allthough when it's in "pinball mode" and tilted a bit it pretty much looks like a pinball machine... Sort of

[Seith]

Option 3, option 3!!!

I also concur with GregD's post, no need to have the box tilted, having a level playing surface wouldn't affect gameplay or comfort when playing pin games (I wouldn't think...)

[yotsuya]

What would prevent the cab from tipping over on the side when the screen is up and the CP is out?

[mgb]

Welcome to the forums.

I gotta say, this is a cool design idea. I'm sure there are some design issues to consider and to work through such as stabillity and space but if it all works out, this will be freakin' cool.

good luck, keep us posted.

[Le Chuck]

You could put the playfield on an actuated lift from the center the rotate the screen 90 degrees down and left/right so it is parallel to the back glass. Then have the control panel fold up and out from the front. This would be a way to fix the balance, perserve the tilt, and make the pin have a smallerl player footprint, IE you don't have to move to the side of the cab to switch modes.

Great plans so far, can't wait to see it develop.

[vidmouse]

Neat idea, but I'd be worried about beating on the
arcade controls during play without front support
for them.

[Saicho]

@Le Chuck: Nice idea, but then then a wide 2-player CP wouldn't be nice to look at ;P Also that would require more moving parts.
@yotsuya: If the screen stays a bit angled and the materials used (besides the CP) are heavy enough then I hope it'll be stable enough.
@vidmouse: It might be yeah... Maybe instead of a drawer I could pull it out and down. I'll fiddle around in Sketchup some more :-)

Added some things:
- Speakers left and right of the screen
- Lockdown bar that swivels on a hinge that covers the left speaker when in "Pinball mode" and rotates off so the screen (and speaker) can go in "Arcade mode"
- Some extra room below the backscreen for storage of systems.


Some concerns though;
- The way I have the speakers set up now probably will result in me using mono Mono over both speakers (else it may sound weird) while in Pinball mode and go Stereo when in Arcade mode. How hard is that to do?
- Also when the screen is in Arcade mode isn't it a bit too close to the control panel (and the people using them)?
- Is 32" a big enough for a good Pinball experience?
- Will the PC, PS3, subwoofer all fit below the backpanel screen?
- How much space is needed between the floor and the cabinet so you can sit comfortable with your legs?

Fun to think about all this And I really appreciate everyones input on this!

[drventure]

Neat idea, but I'd be worried about beating on the
arcade controls during play without front support
for them.

Good point. You'll need some really stout slides to handle it.

On my cabinet, the CP slides out on 4 HD cabinet slides. It works and it's relatively stout, but the CP still wobbles a bit unless you play very gently. In my case, me and my daughter don't really bash on it, so that's no big deal.

But any one else playing on it makes me cringe. If I had it to do over again, I'd definitely be rethinking that approach....

[apfelanni]

the idea is great , but i fear without experience and woodworking skills ur 100 in 1 attempt ends in disaster . usually those arcade wolpertingers tend to come out nearly useless. i hope ur not burning ur money .. my first thoughts were:  build a pinball or a vewlix / evil style wooden cab and forget bout the ddr , lightgun , console , flipscreen , 4 player nonsens ... thats far to much stuff ..

[Saicho]

@apfelanni: Just before you posted that I totally made up my mind to go for option 3 :-) I'll be planning/designing it and hopefully together with a friend (who doesn't have 2 left hands like me) we can do most of the work. And if needed I'll get a professional to help me out! Now that I've made up my mind I want this thing to become a reality

@drventure: I've got a pretty good idea what I want to do to make it work. My crappy Sketchup skills at work again:


Found some plans online about the height of a "normal" pinball cab:
- Bottom Front legs to top of playing field : 90cm
- Bottom Back legs to top of playing field : 120cm
- Cab length : 130cm

So taking into account that the front legs can be lowered (to 90cm or so) I think that 65cm between the bottom of the control panel and the floor should be enough to comfortable sit before it when in Arcade Mode. Leaving about 55-60 cm for the cab itself. Around 25cm of that goes to the CP and 10-15cm to the screen. Leaving around a maximum of 20cm space of "working room". Should be enough right?

[Le Chuck]

I'm concerned with sitting 8 inches away from a 47" television and being able to see the whole screen, anyway to increase the distance between controls and screen?

[apfelanni]

japanese candy cabs measure 55-65 cm from the floor to the panelbottom. they are made for 40-45 cm stools. better build a cardboard testmockup .

[Saicho]

@Le Chuck: The image is based on a 32" screen, but you're right about the distance. Maybe instead of 90 degrees it should be around 80 degrees?

@apfelanni: Good idea about the cardboard mockup. I'll try that later this weekend. Gives me a chance to get a feel on the whole viewing distance in Arcade Mode and stance in Pinball mode

[Le Chuck]

@Le Chuck: The image is based on a 32" screen, but you're right about the distance. Maybe instead of 90 degrees it should be around 80 degrees?

@apfelanni: Good idea about the cardboard mockup. I'll try that later this weekend. Gives me a chance to get a feel on the whole viewing distance in Arcade Mode and stance in Pinball mode

Mock-up would be your best bet, maybe have the screen on a sliding hinge and have it raise on the far side of the cab when in the up position.  The base could run on a track and the hinge arms connect to the middle of the screen sides.  This would give you better standoff and perhaps add some balace so you aren't right on top of the screen pounding away on the buttons.  Terrible description I know but do you get my drift?  I think you've got a great idea but need to balance play-ability with the mechanics. 

[vidmouse]

My two cents on your latest concept:

So the controls pull-down now?  The sketch seems like it doesn't give
enough room for the actual height of buttons (under the cp panel) as
well as height of the joysticks.  If you want the cabinet side flush
when you close it, you will have to build "up"... which could lead to
some problems when you try to open/close the swinging panel.

I would also be concerned about the comfort/height of the joystick/buttons
if you go w/ a standard height for the pinball table top.
To give you an idea, here's an (old) pic of my arcade and pinball cabs side by side.
Both are approximately at "standard" height for each.



Does the playfield monitor still rotate up?

To give your original concept design more stability, I thought maybe you could
attach fold-out legs to the underside of the pull drawer, like a card table.
Not the sturdiest thing, not the most attractive, but it would be more stable.

Keep trying!  I am interested to see you pull this off!

[Green Giant]

If you can effectively get the monitor to rotate up and down, have you thought about making it a showcase style with a separate control panel?

If you were to completely separate the joys/buttons from the pin, they could be designed much more ergonomically.  Now you would have some leftover room inside the cab for the transformation.

How about a hidden marquee that flips out from inside the case to sit on top of the tv?

[drventure]

Yeah, Vidmouse may be right. The controls will be awfully low to be comfortable...

And that big screen will be right in your face unless the controls are back quite a bit.

I still think it's a cool idea. Just not sure how it'd work...

[menace]

Coming off of a virtual pin build I have some questions.  Are you decasing the tv to fit in the pin?  37" tv is the only size that will go into a standard width pinball machine without modding it.  If not using an old pinball machine (which I highly recommend by the way) as there is a boatload of hardware that you'll have to buy/build/fabricate --leg supports, lockdown bar, siderails, etc.  I really don't like the off center tiltdown player panel--just seems added on--but its yours right? so do as you will. 

Also, don't overestimate how much space you have in there--with speakers, subwoofer, pc, plunger power supplies etc. your big empty box fills faster than you think.  Also in the backbox I used a 26" lcd in there and in order for it to look right there is 0 room for anything else.  Heat buildup is also a concern with large tv's inside pin cabinets so plan on a couple 120mm fans somewhere

Not sure how relevant this is to what you have in mind but it would suck to go through all of this and have a poolry received virtual pin AND and a wonky mame system...

I hope your buddy is as as good as you say--this is a crapload of work and if you aren't helping huge, I'd bet there would be some resentment building up...

[vidmouse]

One other thing I just thought of...
real pinballs have a slope in the table, which admittedly you don't need given
that yours is virtual:



It would look reallllly wonky if you tried to flip the playfield up from that angle.

[Saicho]

Just a quick update from my phone;
The 3 main issues with the current design are:
- Stability
- Height of the control panel
- Viewing distance in Arcade Mode

I've talked things over during a birthday party () and I think all 3 problems can be solved by changing the position of the screen in upward position and by changing how the control panel comes into position. I'll use Sketchup om monday to show what I mean. And I'll properly respond to the replies aswell

So far the steps that are needed to go from pinball mode to arcade mode are:
- Adjust height of the front legs
- Unlock lockdown bar
- Put the screen in upward position
- Put the control panel in place
Game on!

[Kangum]

stability can be a huge problem. stability is why my first mini pin project failed. my idea was a dell 24 inch ips as the playfield. this made for awesome viewing angles which can be very poor because your basically looking at the monitor from the side at a angle. ips would fix this issue. when i tried to construct the mini pin i used many many steel brackets on the inside and stability was still a huge problem. even leaning against it to play felt really cheap like it was going to collapse. once i decided that it was a failure I told my dad it will take me awhile to remove all the brackets to take it apart. my dad literally picked up the entire cab and slammed it down on the ground and the entire thing exploded into a pile of wood rubble. it really showed how truly weak it was.

if i was to do it again i would use wood braces on the inside and run screws right through from the outside right into the wood braces then patch over the screws so you couldnt see em. I was using 5/8 mdf so nothing was screwed in deep enough since i tried to assemble it from the inside out so no screws were showing. I think this was a big mistake. the metal brackets were not good enough.

[Saicho]

Just a quick question, before my big update tomorrow

What 32" LED LCD-TV's are advised for cabs?
So no visible ghosting and a low input lag are highly prefered (required even?). Looked at A LOT of reviews/posts about this, but couldn't really find anything conclusive. Hopefully someone can share their experience/knowledge on this matter too

-edit-
I guess the display panel should be IPS instead of TN? Due to the better viewing angle (and colors). A Panasonic Viera TX-L32DT35E (or TC-L32DT35 in the US) is looking pretty good. Need to check on some more reviews though. Also it's pretty expensive compared to a Samsung UE32D5000 that's going for 385 euro... Not too sure about the input lags on these though. Will check some more later today :-)

[Saicho]

Also need to start think about a theme for it all... Maybe go for the obvious?

[Saicho]

According to HDTVtest.co.uk the input lag for the Samsung UE32D5000 is 16ms which is really good
I've also looked at some small speakers to go along side of the LCD and found the Logitech X-530 set to be pretty good for that. If anyone knows a better (around the same price category) then by all means let me know.

Now the idea is to use a slide system:

This way the screen can stand up in the middle of the cab which makes for a better weight distribution.

Here are the different parts for it:


And here they are fitted together:


In the end the screen can swivel upwards like this:


I still need to add some things like a way to keep the glass in place and a support behind the screen when angled up. Also I might need to create some more room behind the LCD screen for heat issues. And ofc some ventilation
I'll keep working on the model in SketchUp and hopefully I can post it all later today.

[Saicho]

Great suggestions/tips all! Thanks alot for that.

@Le Chuck: Thanks for the idea :-) Instead of tilting at the back I opted for a middle tilt.

@vidmouse and drventure: The pull-down system wouldn't really work I agree. Was a lot wrong with, but since it's a concept and peple are helping then i'm sure we can figure things out
A swing-up system might work for the CP. Might not be the prettiest, but there will be more support and you can swivel things up quite far up.  I've got some idea's to put the height of it all around the same height you have with your cabs. I'll try to add it in SketchUp later tonight.

@Green Giant: A seperate control panel would kinda ruin it for me :-) The whole idea is a transformation from Pinball mode to Arcade mode.

@menace: I'm not building off a existing pinball cab. I'm going for a 32" playfield. So you're right about have to create all the extra's myself It's a big project, but I would love to see it realized. For the backpanel i'm probably going with a 19" 4:3 LCD which I still have lying around. And yeah I really need to make sure everything is ventilated properly... Things might get hot... HOT... H O T !

@vidmouse: The plan is that while in Arcade mode everything is at 90 degrees flat and when going for Pinball mode the front legs can be lowered a bit to create a nice angle. The backboard will be created with that angle in mind.

Gonna relax a bit now, enjoy some dinner and then It's back to SketchUp!

[Le Chuck]

Sai, much better on the screen, that seems attainable.  Your middle rotation got me thinking about your CP.  What if the whole side panel of the cab body also rotated to reveal the controls.  You pop up the screen then unlatch the side from the interior and pull the whole thing down, on a middle axle for full 180 degree revealing a built out control panel and re-lock.  Doesn't have to be the full side, for structural integrity and square-ness you could just do full rotating panels, but the clearance would be trickier.  While you're at it have the back screen slide down into the body while you're playing, have self leveling legs, and actuate everything so it's button operated... no VOICE operated... and have it play that schoo-tchu-koo-koo-choo sound that transformers emit during their um... transforming.  Then teach it to call you Father and have it rob banks for you.  That'd be tits.  

[Saicho]

@Le Chuck: Sounds awesome! I'll get right to it... Allthough the "schoo-tchu-koo-koo-choo" while it changes modes would be sweet

I put the display slide and a CP swivel in and it looks like this while in Pinball mode:


Changed to Arcade mode:


The control panel swivels up from below the machine (notice the red balls in the Pinball mode picture ). It also rests on that point so it can take a bit more "force". Still need something to keep it there though (see orange arrows in the picture below). Also shown where I plan to put the big hardware with my imba MS Paint skills!


Also this way I can still use the full side of the cab for my theme :-)
Still have to add quite the following:
- Ventilation
- Keep the glass in place
- Keep the CP in place
- Start thinking about a theme...
- Think of a way to get a 5-10 degree tilt for pinball mode without tilting the support legs (tried that... looks stupid and unstable).
- Or verify that viewing distance with the Samsung is good enough so that it's not needed to tilt it.

[drventure]

This is starting to look +really+ interesting. That monitor slide/swivel might be a trick, unless the idea is that it simply pivots on an axis that's interior, as opposed to exterior hinges...

It's starting to look very plausible!

[Kangum]

the diagram with the screen up looks really nice. The thing that concerns me is the size of the widescreen how it will translate to mame. Will it look ok or badly stretched.

[Le Chuck]

the diagram with the screen up looks really nice. The thing that concerns me is the size of the widescreen how it will translate to mame. Will it look ok or badly stretched.

PBJ put up some mortal kombat pics on another thread using a widescreen lcd and they look okay.  For the purist it will take getting used to but purists don't usually build all in one pin to cab conversions. 

[NIVO]

just a reminder about lag input saicho: anything with a tv tuner in it will be higher. Looking to a "pure" monitor will decrease this greatly. With that being said, some pure monitors can be more expensive.

[Saicho]

@drventure: Not totally sure what you mean with "pivots on an axis that's interior, as opposed to exterior hinges" (English is not my first language ), but the monitor slides back and then you can pull it up and it falls into place in lowered part of the slide. So no exterior hinges are used for the monitor. It only needs a little stand at the back to keep it from falling back.

@NIVO: I've looked at that option, but the cheapest 30" monitor screen is just under 1000 euros. And most of the time they are 16:10 which would make the playing field even wider.

I have 2 Street Fighter 4 T.E. PS3 arcade sticks that I'll be using for the control panel and probably an IPAC for the pinball buttons. I'm wondering about that second pinball button on the side though. I know some pinball machines require it, but I'm not sure if I really need it too. Anyone have any experience if they miss/need/hate that second button?

[menace]

RE: second pinball button--its usually meant for a "magna-save" or other type feaute specific to certain games (I think black knight originally had it).  What I did was look at all the pinballs that were on the MUST HAVE list, see if they had weird controls and planned accordingly.  I opted to not include the second button as there are way more cool pins without it than with it. 

Also while you are planning decide whether you are going to go with an analog plunger or a digital type one.  The space needs inside are a bit more for an analog one and you'll have to make space for it.

[vidmouse]

Much, much better.  A few more comment points, if I may:

> You're probably going to want sturdier legs 
   Seriously though, I would consider foregoing the
   standard "leg" scheme that a pinball table has and
   go with something sturdier, like a full-pane support
   It may look more boxy, but it will stand up to more
   rough play.

> If you decase your PC you probably have enough room
   under your playfield monitor to put all the components,
   vs long wire trails to the back of the cabinet.

> The flip-up console is neat.  Once it's in arcade position
   you're going to need a heckuva strong latch to keep it
   in place.  Maybe even design it so that you don't just
  flip it up, but push it in to lock it in place.  So, to transform
   it from pinball to arcade, you would pull it out, flip it up,
   then push it in to lock it in place.

[Saicho]

@menace: Thanks! I'll go with 1 button on the sides then. Also I could either lower the position of the plunger or go for the big round digital button... I'll probably go for the last.

@vidmouse
Legs: Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.
PC decase: Again! Good point
Control panel: A lock sounds pretty good. I have some space when the screen is flipped up (see picture)

[Saicho]

I haven't really taken into account the wood I'll be using... Wiki suggests MDF 12mm / 1/2" panels for interior and MDF 18mm / 3/4" for the sides. I'll also need some support blocks. Do you think that will keep things stable?

[Saicho]

No updates the coming days, because it's time for snowboarding again!