RetrocadE, Mac bartop

[killsurfcity]

Hey guys. This is one hell of a forum you got going here. I've been going crazy looking at all these incredible projects. I thought I'd add mine for the hell of it.
I've been playing MAME for years, and always wanted to set up a used cab or something. Recently heard about bartops, and thought it'd be a perfect use for my wife's old iMac which as been collecting dust for the past several years.
I've never built a cab before, so I'm sort of winging it, but so far so good.

Here are some build pics of what i've got so far...









As you can probably guess, this is a low-budget production. I really just wanted to put the iMac to use again, and a small MAME cabinet seemed like just the thing. It may seem odd I want with 6 buttons giving the age of the machine, but SF2 was a must have for me, and luckily runs great. Of course, a lot of the newer ones do not, but somehow Darkstalkers does, which is another old favorite. The button layout is both compact and ergonomic, which is perfect for this size cab. The one image of the buttons/joy installed in cheap ply is one of 5 or so different mockups i did before settling on this layout. It looks odd, but it's both intuitive and comfortable (well, for me anyway). I'm hoping to have the CP and marquee done over the next couple days. I'll post more pix as I take them. As for the finished look of the cab, I'm still deciding. I did order some green buttons and t-molding (i'm going to hot glue the t-molding. no router/can't be bothered.) I'd say it's probably going to be fairly minimal. Mostly just focussing on Marquee and CP, and perhaps a one color stencil on the sides.

Thanks for all the great ideas/inspiration. You guys rule.

EDIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Through some favorable turn of events, this is now going to house a 17" LCD, and be powered by a G4 aluminum powerbook!
Keep your eyes peeled for my upcoming all vertical MAME project, using the iMac though.  

[Le Chuck]

Welcome!  Looking good so far.  Got a few questions. 

The ergonomics of your button layout:  would you say it is more ergonomical than a horizonal layout?  Did you try playing a variety of 4, 5, and 6 button games with that layout before committing?  Was it a space saving feature or purely for feel?  Is this going to be an occasional two player or do you always count on having an apponent?  Does your apponent share your ergonomic choices? 

There aren't a "lot"of mac builders around here.  Are you keeping the MAC OS or are you/have you overwritten to something else?  What frontend will you be going with?

You mentioned minimal, which is cool, any thoughts on theme?  Artwork or just paint? 

I'll keep watching.  Keep it up!

 

[killsurfcity]

Thanks!
I played a lot of SF2 in highschool, and always hated that button layout. Neo Geo was better, but not great. So when I started, I did some research into other options. With a small cab, ergonomics are even more important than a large one. With players this close together, your hands just rest on the panel differently, so the smaller panel and the ergonomics are definitely linked in my mind. I mock played with a bunch of more traditional layouts, and I could feel wrist pain coming on with all of them within minutes. This layout came from placing my hands on the panel in relative player position for both p1 and p2, and making marks where my ands/fingers fell on the panel. Then I just made a close enough button placement for those locations. This layout is based on having your primary "firing" fingers be your thumb, index, and middle fingers, hence the seemingly irregular spacing of the lower two (thumb) buttons. It may seem odd, but it's very comfortable, and I found it easy to adjust to personally. I always ended up button mashing with two fingers to one button in SF2, so for me this will be a big improvement.

Player 2 will be occasional, so I did really try to make the p1 position as comfortable as possible. P2 will be stuck with my choices, and I will use my irregular button layout to foil his attempts at besting me! 

I don't play on using a front end, as I don't really see a need for anything "nicer" than MacMAME. however, I have been toying with the idea of rolling back to OS9. The look/function of OSX is nicer, but OS9 will probably perform slightly better. (at least that's what people seem to say) Do I have any other options? Linux? I have no idea about what it would take to set that up, though I do have a box running Mint, and it's quite tasty.

I had two ideas, one, go with one of my favorite artworks, Galaga, but just skip the side panels, and do either flat black, or black with stencils of some of the sprites in 1-2 colors. Two, design a custom theme based on retro gaming. I was going to call it Retrocade. Also, including side stencils, of some pixel-art or another.

This is a highly addictive hobby, I'm already planning another bartop!

cheers!

[kb84]

I am not too familiar with Mame on a Mac but I would highly encourage the use of a front-end with your cabinet as it will make the experience so much better. I think you can probably go with a powerpc friendly version of linux (ubuntu/etc) and wahcade as a front end.

The setup is quite easy and there are some guides in the software section to help you out- or I can assist if you decide to go that route.

[killsurfcity]

Thinking some more about the CP layout. Any specific concerns? I played with it a bit more today, and may adjust it again. I haven't drilled anything but scrap, so i can fool about as much as I want.

kb84, that is interesting. I'm looking into it, and may give it a shot. I'm mostly a mac guy, but I like linux a lot so far. And if it allows me to run more games properly, that would be awesome.

Did some more tooling around today. I was testing my speakers, and trying to figure out how to mount them...



These actually sound surprisingly good. And for $0.25, you can't beat the price!



Re-wired, and ready for mounting. I'm going to mount the amp near the back of the cab in a cutout, so it can be tweaked if needed.



Testing out, mounting methods. This one worked great. The sound was perfect for the size of the cab. That's stainless mesh there. Looks like I'll be mounting these under the marquee.

Speaking of marquees, what's a decent cheap way to light one? I was thinking of using a string of Christmas lights.

cheers!

[kb84]

I've never seen a Christmas light setup for a marquee but I would imagine the illumination would be a little weird- but like I said I've never seen it so it might work. I would go with a low heat type light for your cab considering the use of the encased iMac. The common ones you'll see around here are the NovaMatrix LED lights at http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=307

I went with a light strip from http://www.directron.com/ml12wt.html as it was a cheaper alternative. You would have to wire either into a power source (DC power adapter would be easiest.

You can always try the Christmas lights and see how they do and if they aren't up to snuff switch them out for something better.

[Le Chuck]

+1 for KB84's GGG link.  You can get cheaper strip lights from big box stores but you're saving maybe $6 and Randy is part of the community.  Christmas lights would be considered a technique but not doctrine.  

[killsurfcity]

Oh, nice, those are cheaper than I thought!

Also, updated the CP layout again...



23"x9"

[kb84]

Yeah Definitely check out GGG - http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/  - I ordered a bunch of stuff there for my bartop and was really happy with everything I got. If my order wasn't already placed/shipped I would have probably got the NovaMatrix lights from there as well. I probably will pick them up for my next project. 

[DaveMMR]

Oh, nice, those are cheaper than I thought!

Also, updated the CP layout again...



23"x9"

Love the cabinet design so far, but I'm not really sold on the button layout.  Sorry. I think some people over think "ergonomics" a bit with control panels; you're not typing a 50 page report with the buttons, only playing quick arcade games. Simple and traditional always wins out and if you're going to curve a bit, keep them horizontal.  Yes, I know you said you found it comfortable - but if you're doing two players, he/she (used to the standard layout) will be a little perplexed by the layout.  If space is a concern, you can pretty much move those buttons closer to the joystick base (assuming that base will be flush mounter, the button bezel can even overlap it a bit) and still be comfortable.

No matter what you do, though, bartops are going to be cramped.  Another option (one that I've been exploring for my preliminary bar top ideas) is to just make it simply a one-player setup and maybe have a USB for a second player either controlled by a standard gamepad or a second, stand-along controller (you can make that later).

That's just my take on it.  If you've tested it thoroughly and it works 100% for you and guests then press-on. 

Otherwise, so far so good.

[leapinlew]

Oh, nice, those are cheaper than I thought!

Also, updated the CP layout again...



23"x9"

Love the cabinet design so far, but I'm not really sold on the button layout.  Sorry. I think some people over think "ergonomics" a bit with control panels; you're not typing a 50 page report with the buttons, only playing quick arcade games. Simple and traditional always wins out and if you're going to curve a bit, keep them horizontal.  Yes, I know you said you found it comfortable - but if you're doing two players, he/she (used to the standard layout) will be a little perplexed by the layout.  If space is a concern, you can pretty much move those buttons closer to the joystick base (assuming that base will be flush mounter, the button bezel can even overlap it a bit) and still be comfortable.

No matter what you do, though, bartops are going to be cramped.  Another option (one that I've been exploring for my preliminary bar top ideas) is to just make it simply a one-player setup and maybe have a USB for a second player either controlled by a standard gamepad or a second, stand-along controller (you can make that later).

That's just my take on it.  If you've tested it thoroughly and it works 100% for you and guests then press-on. 

Otherwise, so far so good.

I'm going to backup Dave here. While you may not have liked the layout, it's what is expected. I'm sure you can get used to anything, but when people come to my house to play, they don't really like when things are different. For example, I have a street fighter layout which works great for Street Fighter. My friends who liked Mortal Kombat are ok with the layout with 1 and 2, but won't play any of the other ones because the location of the buttons is off. I've never seen a button layout like the one you are contemplating.

You could build 2 and fiddle around with them for a while till you come up with what you want. I built a 2 player bartop (in my profile). I went with the 3x3 horizontal layout. It's a little cramped, but not too bad.

[killsurfcity]

Ok, a number of things to think about. Maybe this will help you guys help me make a final decision on this CP business.

1) I'm really the only person at my place regularly who is into fighters, so the layout is essentially for me. However, it would get annoying if someone else came over, and kept blaming their frequent losses, on my whacky ergo layout. So, point taken there.

2) Most of my friends are just into the classics, and some other older games. Donkey Kong, Time Pilot, Golden Axe, Captain Comando, Bomber Man, Dig Dug, will all be popular games.

3) For the most part though, no one is what I'd call an arcade junkie. They couldn't tell you the classic button layout for any of those games off the top of their head. They WILL want to play though, and as long as the buttons click, they will be pushed!

Bearing all of that in mind, what do you think of this revised, more traditional layout?...



Only difference for P2 is an 1/8 inch less space. Not bad...

[Donkbaca]

Much better.  I don't see how you could have used that last layout without P1's elbow getting in the way of P2's stick

[killsurfcity]

Yeah, it's still an improvement over SF2 imo, but it's not so radical as to put people off. We'll see how I feel about it after testing, but I think it will be ok.

I'm layering my CP because I don't have/have access to a router. I found a very flat piece of .25" ply, so I'm going to do 2 layers of that, 1/8 masonite, then art, then 1/8 plexi. I'm sure doing a nice professional routing job is better, but that's off the table for now. So far in tests, this is sturdy enough. I'm going to glue the ply together after cutting, but the masonite, art, and plexi will be held down by the buttons.

[Le Chuck]

100% better.  Think about a dedicated P2 coin.  You have the room and it will eliminate one shifted control.

[DaveMMR]

Now that's a solid layout. Your friends will thank you when your elbow is not all in their business. 

[killsurfcity]

Oh, I didn't realize there were separate coin inputs for p1 and p2. I'll look into that. Shouldn't be an issue.
Thanks for all the input guys.

[Donkbaca]

Without a router, I assume you are not putting on t-molding?

[killsurfcity]

Donkbaca, I was going to go with a suggestion from another thread and hot glue it.

Here's some more progress from today...



Drawer installed



Backing board cut. Letting the butt hang out shaved 3" off. It's probably better for airflow anyway.



It's shaping up!



Couple more questions...
I want to keep the iMac un-modded, which means, I can't mount it. Currently I have it sitting on supports, which do a fine job of keeping it where I want it. I don't plan on moving it much once we have a place for it. Do I really need to worry about anchoring it somehow?

Also, It looks like I won't be able to mount the speakers under the marquee because it's too tight in there for me to have room to work. Weighing other options. What about in the marquee but mounted out the sides like the image below? It's not as clean a look, but I can manage it. Any other options? I thought about mounting them so the point out the top of the cab, but they'd be dust magnets, and hard to clean.

[Donkbaca]

Let me know how the hot glue goes, seems to me like it would be a pain.

Have you thought about mounting the speakers in the CP box? 

[Le Chuck]

If you don't secure the iMac in there and then start carting your bartop around it'll either 1) get off center and be annoying 2) hurt something else in the cab by bumping around 3) fall out

Just throwing it out there but a palm router is a cheap multifunctional household power tool that will benefit you on more than just a MAME cab... and hot gluing T-molding will be a short term solution at best.  First drunk at a party and that stuff is on the floor.  

If you uncase the computer you may find you have enough room to get those speaker in the sides then you can just cut holes on the sides of your cab, which can look nice like on the Taxi Cab  

<edit:  edges sanded round then painted to match the sides will look better than hot glued T-molding>

[kb84]

A router can be had pretty cheap and I've found a lot of use for mine outside of building arcade stuff (which is why I originally purchased it). I would recommend either buying a router and doing a proper t-molding installation or +1 on Le Chuck's suggestion of just sanding/rounding the corners/painting. I think you are just looking for a big headache in the end with the hot glue method.

[killsurfcity]

I've seen t-molding hot-glue jobs on here before that look great. One dude said it had been solid for a year or so. That's where I got the idea. We'll see. I'll test it first like I do everything else. I'll think about the router though. I just don't need any more expense attached to this thing...

Donkbaca, I can't mount them in the CP. Not enough room. I could do it on the sides like the taxi cab, but I'd probably just use grilles or something to cover the holes, as I don't know how to do all that fancy rounding. And I like Grilles anyway.

Le Chuck, I was thinking of just having the iMac be completely removable via the rear. So if I wanted to move it, i'd just take it out. That said, I don't plan on moving it much, even though it is a bartop.

[Donkbaca]

Buy used router off of ebay for the price of a used router off of ebay
when finished sell used router on ebay for price of used router on ebay

Just because you buy something doesn't mean you have to keep it forever.  I have a friend who goes on one long vacation per year.  Each year, before he goes he buys a used ipad, the newest model, so that he can use it instead of his iphone to read books, watch videos and play with apps while he is on the plane and such.  When he gets back he sells the thing.  Usually comes out about even, sometimes he even comes out ahead.

Just gut the damned imac.  Seriously, its an old computer, when in the heck would you ever use it?

[killsurfcity]

Ahaha! I always say I'm going to sell stuff back... then... Not so much. Whatever, I'll figure it out.

The iMac was my wife's, and she has an attachment to it. But I talked her into letting it go tonight. It was causing too many issues trying to work around it. Now to figure out how to get to what I need to without killing either it or me.

[alfonzotan]

I don't play on using a front end, as I don't really see a need for anything "nicer" than MacMAME. however, I have been toying with the idea of rolling back to OS9. The look/function of OSX is nicer, but OS9 will probably perform slightly better. (at least that's what people seem to say) Do I have any other options? Linux? I have no idea about what it would take to set that up, though I do have a box running Mint, and it's quite tasty.

MacMAME and Vectorama for OS9 are two of the best "golden era" emulators ever written.  They handle vector games in particular better than anything going right now.

That said, if you choose to go with OS X (I did, but then again, my cab is a Hackintosh build, meaning all-Intel), EmuLaunch is an excellent no-frills front end for SDLMAME.  The benefits there are that the more modern versions of MAME have so many neat options... I particularly like being able to display bezels and backgrounds and overlays.

UPDATE:  Whoops, just saw you were getting rid of the old iMac.  Ah, well...

[killsurfcity]

Maybe my post was unclear. I'm still using the iMac. Was considering giving debian and wahmame a go on it, but downloading all that jazz, burning disks, and then dealing with the inevitable errors and debugging is making me want to pass. Maybe I'll roll back to OS9. I still have the install disks! I'm sure the iMac will love me for it. Maybe it'll even run some of the games it's been having trouble with in OSX.

In other news, I had a look and the iMac should be pretty easy to mount. Due to the clear case, I can screw brackets into it without a worry of hitting something.

[alfonzotan]

Maybe my post was unclear. I'm still using the iMac. Was considering giving debian and wahmame a go on it, but downloading all that jazz, burning disks, and then dealing with the inevitable errors and debugging is making me want to pass. Maybe I'll roll back to OS9. I still have the install disks! I'm sure the iMac will love me for it. Maybe it'll even run some of the games it's been having trouble with in OSX.

In other news, I had a look and the iMac should be pretty easy to mount. Due to the clear case, I can screw brackets into it without a worry of hitting something.

Okay then, looks like a fun project. 

I'd definitely give OS9 at least a try... well worth it for the vector games if nothing else, and if you hate it, just wipe and reinstall OS X.  I picked up an old Mac Cube for next to nothing a while back, still plan to integrate it into my cab for OS9 games.  Problem right now is that I can't find a KVM switch that plays nice with the existing Hackintosh board in the cab.  If I can't easily switch between the two, it's not really worth the hassle.

[killsurfcity]

yeah, i'd love to find a cube cheap. totally made for this sort of thing.

i think i'll try installing OS9 today. it'll give me an excuse to test a bunch more games.

[killsurfcity]

man, i forgot what a PITA OS9 is! after rolling back to 9.0 and mame 0.36a, and testing, i'm thinking it's not worth sacrificing the ease of working with OSX. for one thing, i can't use my usb sticks in OS 9. so forget adding games on the fly via usb. also any addons have to be added via CDR, which would be pain enough, without the fact that the CD rom on this iMac is tricky at best. also, in testing performance on the 5 or so games i tried was about the same as on 10.4. (still no mortal kombat, grrrr). oh well, back to X i go!

[alfonzotan]

man, i forgot what a PITA OS9 is! after rolling back to 9.0 and mame 0.36a, and testing, i'm thinking it's not worth sacrificing the ease of working with OSX. for one thing, i can't use my usb sticks in OS 9. so forget adding games on the fly via usb. also any addons have to be added via CDR, which would be pain enough, without the fact that the CD rom on this iMac is tricky at best. also, in testing performance on the 5 or so games i tried was about the same as on 10.4. (still no mortal kombat, grrrr). oh well, back to X i go!

Hmm, I can certainly see the CD thing being an issue.  Might be worth your trouble to install Game Sprockets and see if that helps with the joystick issue:

http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1237?viewlocale=en_US

EDIT:  Never mind, I though you were talking about controllers.  Really, thumbdrives don't work?  Yikes.

[killsurfcity]

yeah, some of the games looked better, but overall, it was too much trouble working around the issues of an obsolete platform to stay with it. i'm glad i did it though, so now i'm sure i'm on the right track with 10.4.

by the way, i tried emulaunch, and it looked great, but i had some issues. when i launch a game, it's real smooth, but when i exit, it goes back to macmame, making it a weird experience. then, when i try to launch another game via emulaunch, it just brings the macmame window to the front and fails to launch. anyone else had this issue?

i'm going to need a usb hub too. i thought i had one, but i can't find it. any particular kind that's easy to mount in the cab?

[Le Chuck]

Onn makes a super easy four port for $11 at wally world, I hot glue.  If you need powered then Belkin has a 4 port powered for $19. 

[404]

man, i forgot what a PITA OS9 is! after rolling back to 9.0 and mame 0.36a, and testing, i'm thinking it's not worth sacrificing the ease of working with OSX. for one thing, i can't use my usb sticks in OS 9. so forget adding games on the fly via usb. also any addons have to be added via CDR, which would be pain enough, without the fact that the CD rom on this iMac is tricky at best. also, in testing performance on the 5 or so games i tried was about the same as on 10.4. (still no mortal kombat, grrrr). oh well, back to X i go!

I personally would have just gone the linux route on a spare hard drive. Those imacs were the first to use the new world bios, you wouldn't have any issues with installation. While this route may not be the best when installing and configuring, the amount of *nix mame tools available, presentation, bootup time and aesthetics alone i think would be worth the hassle.

Macs wer never much my thing but i did have a bunch of PPC macs. Still have a few powermac g4 boards and processors laying around here. Love your project so far.

[killsurfcity]

I guess I get why people like frontends, but it's just not worth the hassle for me. Unless there's some brilliant aspect I'm missing. I'm not running multiple emulators so switching isn't a plus. Macmame is at least intuitive, and all the confit options are in obvious places. What more should I want outa this.

My next box is going to be an all vertical mame cab with either a trackball or a spinner. I may mess around a bit more with software bells and whistles on that one.

[alfonzotan]

yeah, some of the games looked better, but overall, it was too much trouble working around the issues of an obsolete platform to stay with it. i'm glad i did it though, so now i'm sure i'm on the right track with 10.4.

by the way, i tried emulaunch, and it looked great, but i had some issues. when i launch a game, it's real smooth, but when i exit, it goes back to macmame, making it a weird experience. then, when i try to launch another game via emulaunch, it just brings the macmame window to the front and fails to launch. anyone else had this issue?

i'm going to need a usb hub too. i thought i had one, but i can't find it. any particular kind that's easy to mount in the cab?

Use SDLMAME instead of MacMAME with EmuLaunch.  Much better experience.  It's supported for PPC through version 0.122, which should be fine for "classic" games.  I posed a quick rundown on the state of MAME for Mac (at least as I understand it) in a thread on the Software forum:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=88782.0

I just bought "whatever was cheap" for a USB hub.  It actually turned out to be pretty cool, with arcade-y blinking lights and stuff on the inside, so I mounted it (heavy velcro) so they were visible, and ports were accessible without opening the cab.  

[killsurfcity]

SDLMAME confused me. I looked into it and couldn't figure out which to use, and how it all worked. It reminded me of my dealings with open source linux stuff... shudder.

i came up with a couple more general questions about the cab...
the marquee... i have it framed out, and i plan to have nice quality color prints made and cut to fit in there. how do people usually affix them to the plexi? or should I sandwich it between 2 pieces?

for the bezel... i already have one piece of plexi cut. i was planning on spray painting a black bezel/border with flat black. of course, you'd be able to see the bezel of the iMac through that, as it's recessed about an 1.5". what if I cut a second bezel out of black foam core to adhere to the bezel of the iMac? i think it would create depth and focus you on the screen. any ideas?

[Blanka]

Just go with MacMame. SDL Mame is only fun with Emulaunch, but that will perform horrible on a iMac. Even a G4 MacMini can't handle Emulaunch well, and that is a lot faster machine than those early iMacs!
MacMame is also the easiest Mame to operate I have ever seen. It just shows the content of your ROM folder, hides the clones, and does not need al that ROM checking time consuming crap.

[alfonzotan]

SDLMAME confused me. I looked into it and couldn't figure out which to use, and how it all worked. It reminded me of my dealings with open source linux stuff... shudder.

It's a pure command line app, but if you have a front end pointed towards it, you shouldn't have to touch the command line (I never have).  Lots of SDLMAME pages start with directions for compiling... life's too short for that mess.  The link above has already-compiled binaries, so you don't have to fool with building it yourself.  Really the only trick in getting it installed (if you use the binaries) is installing the SDL libraries in first (http://www.libsdl.org/).  After that it's just a matter of pointint to the 'mame' app in the SDLMAME directory in the preferences of your front end.

Seriously, it is worth the trouble.

[alfonzotan]

Just go with MacMame. SDL Mame is only fun with Emulaunch, but that will perform horrible on a iMac. Even a G4 MacMini can't handle Emulaunch well, and that is a lot faster machine than those early iMacs!

Now for all I know this is true.  I haven't tried it on a G4.