Author Topic: Analog Tri-Mode Monitor Automatic Mode Switching (Read 7196 times)

yo1dog · « **on:** January 03, 2012, 05:57:17 pm »

The obvious complaint about analog tri-mode monitors is having to manually switch the mode. Here is my question:

How hard would it be to control that switch programmaticly? Either by servo or some other means? How hard would it be to detect what mode it should be in?

Just an idea.

Jack Burton · « **Reply #1 on:** January 03, 2012, 06:24:34 pm »

You know, I'm thinking this wouldn't be too hard in the grand scope of things.

Some multi-sync monitors just use jumpers to switch between modes. All you would need to do is connect a wire to each jumper and connect it to a three way switch in some more convenient location on your cabinet.

Once you've gone that far I think it wouldn't be so hard to construct a small pcb that measures khz and switches electronically for you. (However, I have no idea how to do that.)

Pretty much just converting an analog monitor to a primitive digital. You would still have to deal with making screen adjustments between resolutions. But if you could find a sweet spot that works for both res's then you would be fine.

yo1dog · « **Reply #2 on:** January 04, 2012, 12:42:55 am »

Yea that was my general idea. I don't think I have the skill to detect the sync mode through the VGA without someone explaining that to me. But I can definitely program my Arduino micro controller to control the switch along with any other settings that needed to be controlled assuming they are controlled by potentiometers or switches. It might be easier to have the pc detect when the sync mode changes and then tell the Arduino what to do.

If anyone has any information or links that would be very helpfull. Trying to decide what monitor to buy.

Calamity · « **Reply #3 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:04:53 am »

I guess you could modify GroovyMAME to talk to that microcontroller, as the output horizontal frequency is a known variable, so you wouldn't need to physically measure it. You would need to find a solution however for desktop/frontend mode switching, etc... you could call a custom app of yours to deal with that.

And, of course, the possibility of needing extra manual adjustments between 15-31KHz modes.

BTW, the Hantarex Polostar is an analog multi-sync monitor and is capable of automatic mode switching.

MonMotha · « **Reply #4 on:** January 04, 2012, 06:11:04 am »

Most tri-syncs I've seen, even analog models, are auto switching. Most dual res models aren't though.

Measuring the frequency of something isn't too tough. It's pretty much a "Microcontrollers 101" topic. You can do it using the input capture module found on most MCU timers, including the AVRs used on the Arduino series. I'd tend to suggest measuring it and adjusting things based on that rather than trying to have the PC signal the changes via PC software. There's less of a chance of setting things incorrectly, that way.

You'll probably need a somewhat hefty relay to switch things. The currents aren't outrageous, but the peak voltages can be quite high and at frequencies well out of the design range of most power relays, both of which could cause internal arcing. If you know a little more about the monitor, it may be possible to use some MOSFETs to do the switching on some or all of the lines. That's usually what the fancy digital ones do, but they have been designed to make that easy.

yo1dog · « **Reply #5 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:49:04 am »

The one I was looking at is the "27"/29" Makvision Tri-Mode Flat Monitor". Don't think it is auto switching.

Quote

And, of course, the possibility of needing extra manual adjustments between 15-31KHz modes.

How are these adjustments made? Is it a nob you turn or buttons you press? I feel like this could also be controlled by the microcontroller.

Quote

Measuring the frequency of something isn't too tough. It's pretty much a "Microcontrollers 101" topic.

Sounds like reading the frequency is something that I will be able to do with the microcontroller, at the very least by a servo that physically turns the nob or press the buttons.

Also what monitor do you all suggest? The most import thing to me is being able to display classic arcade games as close to their original as possible (duh). Also, my cab needs to be a walk-up-and-play kind of deal. So requiring the player to manually adjust the monitor is out of the question.

Jack Burton · « **Reply #6 on:** January 04, 2012, 01:42:57 pm »

I'll add that by using a micro-controller instead of a pc to detect a game's frequency you would be able to have the monitor switch between types of pcb's. If you ever decided to mount a real arcade pcb in your cab in addition to the MAME pc that would be a nice feature to have.

Have you considered just tracking down a large digital multi-sync monitor? There have been a few over the years.

yo1dog · « **Reply #7 on:** January 04, 2012, 01:46:52 pm »

As far as I know, the last of those died out with the Wells Gardner d9800.

EDIT:
Turns out I was wrong:
http://niemandisplays.com/nieman_video_displays_007.htm

Are they still selling and are they any good?

MonMotha · « **Reply #8 on:** January 04, 2012, 02:01:26 pm »

I thought Rick was out of those, but I could be mistaken.

There is also the digital Makvision, but it's high res only. It won't do 15/25k that you probably want for classic games.

Note that the dot pitch on even the low res Makvision is apparently pretty fine. You'll probably get unusually pronounced scanlines and less blurring than a typical "classic" arcade monitor would give.

yo1dog · « **Reply #9 on:** January 04, 2012, 02:14:45 pm »

Unfortunately it looks like I am going to have to stop being so picky. I am prob going to end up going with the 27" Makvision High Resolution
Monitor.

I have heard a lot of good things about it.

Thanks for all the help!

Also, do I need a special graphics card to display at a game's exact resolution and at 30khz?

Thanks,
- Mike

Jack Burton · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:32:58 pm »

You don't need anything special to display a game at 31khz.

To do the other native resolutions I think most modern ATI and Nvidia cards can do it with the proper software.

MonMotha · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:57:29 pm »

Keep in mind that the monitor you've linked can't do "native resolution" of most arcade games. Since it doesn't support 120Hz vertical refresh, the best you'll be able to do is doublescan (drawing each line twice) which will destroy the original scanline appearance if that matters to you.

FYI, 31kHz is just normal 640x480 60Hz progressive VGA. That monitor will also support 800x600 SVGA, which is the default for Windows XP, so you shouldn't need to do anything to make it work.

yo1dog · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:09:29 pm »

Quote from: MonMotha on January 04, 2012, 05:57:29 pm

Keep in mind that the monitor you've linked can't do "native resolution" of most arcade games. Since it doesn't support 120Hz vertical refresh, the best you'll be able to do is doublescan (drawing each line twice) which will destroy the original scanline appearance if that matters to you.

FYI, 31kHz is just normal 640x480 60Hz progressive VGA. That monitor will also support 800x600 SVGA, which is the default for Windows XP, so you shouldn't need to do anything to make it work.

Do you know of a monitor that you can suggest?

MonMotha · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:14:27 pm »

As far as I know, the only monitor still available new through normal channels that does low res modes is the tri-sync analog Makvision.

If you hunt around, you may be able to find someone who has a new-old-stock low res capable digital model, if that's important to you. I've actually got 3 hanging out in my basement, but they're not for sale as they all have a destination already. A couple years back, I found a guy in Chicago selling Sanwa 29PFX digital tri-syncs for like $250. I ended up buying a total of 6 (for 3 people). I should have bought a couple extras. He's out, now. The Betson/Kortek KT-2914F/DF still show up in box occasionally from someone who bought one and didn't use it, as do some of the WG D9xxx series.

yo1dog · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:27:02 pm »

These are the monitors I dream of. What are good places to look for them? If anywhere in particular.

yo1dog · « **Reply #15 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:41:11 pm »

What about this one:
http://www.betson.com/products/parts/IMP-44-4070-DF

As low as 30 horizontal and up to 120 vertical. I still don't know much about these monitors but that is good right? What resolutions does that mean it can support?

Edit:
And it is digital!

MonMotha · « **Reply #16 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:53:58 pm »

That's the KT-2914DF I spoke of. I was of the impression that Betson was out of them, but if they still have them, they're decent monitors. They'll do 15-38k, so standard res all the way up through 800x600 SVGA, which can be handy.

yo1dog · « **Reply #17 on:** January 04, 2012, 11:57:40 pm »

Trying to register to checkout is futile. After spending 20 minutes fixing their form client-side the action url is private

I will try sending them an email but it says "In Stock"

Edit:
Got it working. Any reviews for this monitor? It seems amazing but I am only looking at the stats

MonMotha · « **Reply #18 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:23:22 pm »

They're generally capable, but somewhat quirky.

The settings out of the box are terrible. You will need to adjust it properly for it to look decent. At minimum, brightness and contrast will be way too high. The geometry settings probably also need tweaked.

The rotation option in the menu doesn't work. The hardware just isn't physically there to do it (there's a spot on the board, but they didn't install it), but they didn't bother to remove the option from the menu. If the picture is rotated objectionably when you get it, immediately ask to exchange it, because the fix is not simple (turn the yoke).

The most common complaint I hear otherwise is side compression at 15kHz. It's not a problem at 25k-38k. The DF (totally flat) model seems worse than the F (mostly flat) in this regard. IIRC, the right side is worse than the left. This is noticeable on side scrolling games the most. It can be somewhat fixed by properly adjusting the horizontal linearity setting in service mode.

Rapid mode switching and power cycling of these monitors has caused some people problems in the past resulting in blown components and a non-functional monitor. Then again, they may have just gotten unlucky. I do not recommend using it (or any other monitor with an SMPS) with a "smart strip" style power switch.

The 34" version (which I think was ever only used in certain Pump It Up cabinets and was not generally otherwise available) is notorious for flyback problems, but the standard 27/29" version doesn't seem to exhibit these issues.

Otherwise, they look pretty darned nice. They're very bright, have a fairly proper dot pitch (coarse enough to make low res stuff look right but fine enough to show decent detail even at 800x600). They have a huge range of supported resolutions. They have several memories, though not as many as the Wells Gardner ones apparently have (there seems to be about 2 memory slots for each of CGA, EGA, VGA, and SVGA at 60Hz, depending on if you hit the high or low end of the range), so you may be able to fiddle with it enough to run native res or several PCBs and not have to adjust the sizes/position for each game. The price is reasonable, and Betson apparently does generally support what they sell.

I've known people who think these are total garbage, but I also know of several that have seen commercial arcade duty for 5-6 years without a flinch. I personally own two and am reasonably satisfied with them, though I think the 29PFX (I have 3) is probably slightly better at the expense of not being able to do SVGA.

Oh, also, a service manual is readily available including schematic, which is handy for any potential servicing or troubleshooting down the road.

yo1dog · « **Reply #19 on:** January 05, 2012, 04:53:53 pm »

Thanks for all the great info!

What do you got on their 44-4071-DF?

Edit:
Also, who sells the 29PFX?

MonMotha · « **Reply #20 on:** January 05, 2012, 05:04:47 pm »

The 44-4071-DF is just Betson's part number for the Kortek KT-2914DF. That's the monitor I was referring to in my above comments.

I don't know anybody who has any 29PFX in stock anymore. The only place I ever knew in the US was a guy literally selling them out of his garage

yo1dog · « **Reply #21 on:** January 05, 2012, 05:10:16 pm »

This is what they sent me in an email:

Part number 44-4070-DF
27” Makvision Multi Sync Flat CRT Monitor
(out of stock in Dallas – ETA 1 week)
Cost $469.00 each

Part number 44-4071-DF
27” Makvision VGA/SVGA Flat CRT Monitor
(in stock – available for pickup in Dallas)
Cost $469.00 each

MonMotha · « **Reply #22 on:** January 05, 2012, 05:11:12 pm »

Oh, I'm sorry I was thinking the old 4070 (Kortek, they apparently re-used the fracking part number for the Makvision). I don't know anything personally about the Makvisions.

Those are the same Makvisions you were looking at before.

yo1dog · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2012, 05:14:36 pm »

Yea I am just now realizing this.

Damn well I guess Makvisions really is the only option left. No more digital multisync

Jack Burton · « **Reply #24 on:** January 05, 2012, 05:28:59 pm »

Maybe going outside what you can use, but have you thought about using an NEC XM29?

There are a few for sale around the net, even some on this forum:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=94200.0

The XM29 is a quintuple-sync.

It supports CGA, EGA, VGA, SVGA, and XGA. And I'm pretty sure it will store screen settings on each frequency.

And the picture quality is very, very, very good.

The only catch is you would have to do an extremely tricky decase, or simply choose to build a bulky cab to incorporate it in the case.

Disregard my noobish post in that thread btw. I've learned a lot in the last couple of years.

yo1dog · « **Reply #25 on:** January 05, 2012, 05:46:14 pm »

What makes the decaseing so difficult? Do you know of any spec sheets or dimensions?

Jack Burton · « **Reply #26 on:** January 05, 2012, 08:46:54 pm »

There are links to the manuals that will include specifications for some models here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=92940.msg980792#msg980792

the basic size for all the models should match up with this one:

These monitors are difficult to decase because they were not designed to do that. There is no easy way to remove them from the plastic casing and mount them to an arcade monitor bracket. They are very cube-like even without the plastic casing, with several pcb's packed inside. There's not really even a good inch of spare room. It could be done, but I really, really do not recommend it for a first time project.

yo1dog · « **Reply #27 on:** January 06, 2012, 02:04:35 pm »

Thanks for the link. Yea I would have to modify my design to make it fit, but not by too much.

Also, the seller you linked too is selling the XM-2960, and according to it's manual it does not do the 25Mhz range. What kind of effect will this have?

yo1dog · « **Reply #28 on:** January 13, 2012, 03:25:47 pm »

FYI, I picked up a Makvision 27" High-Res VGA/SVGA from my local Betson distributor today.

Are there any guides out there for monitor calibration or is it more of a just-make-it-look-good kind of thing?

Also, sense the monitor only does 30 - 40KHz 640x480 and 800x600. I don't need any special drivers or graphics card. Correct me if I am wrong but this monitor is incapable of displaying resolutions lower than 640x480 and there for I don't need any special software or equipment.

Jack Burton · « **Reply #29 on:** January 13, 2012, 08:27:58 pm »

Right. You don't need an arcadeVGA or custom drivers.

As far as calibration goes there are a number of tools out there. It all depends on how serious you want to get with it. I use the AVS forum calibration DVD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

You can download the test patterns and play them in a video player on your pc.

The key thing to do is make sure that you calibrate for the room and ambient light you intend on playing in. If you want to play in the dark like at some old school arcades then you will want to calibrate with the lights off and turn the brightness control of your monitor down quite a bit. However, this will mean that in a brightly lit room you will have a sort of dim image.

It -is- possible through some tweaking to find a sort of sweet spot that balances well through different lighting conditions, but the best image is always going to come from a calibration for one environment.

Things to remember:

-turn down brightness til black is as black as you can get it, but without sacrificing shadow details
-turn up contrast until white is as white as you can get it, but without causing anything to "bloom" or sacrificing details in very brightly lit areas.
-make sure that each color is the color it should be by balancing the red, green, and blue controls with color bars.

yo1dog · « **Reply #30 on:** January 13, 2012, 08:30:25 pm »

Thanks for the info! Can't wait to get off work :/

yo1dog · « **Reply #31 on:** January 14, 2012, 01:23:44 am »

The input VGA picture has no red. The monitor's menus display red fine. Both windows and the monitor's on-screen menu's red settings have no effect. I have made sure the connection with the monitor and the computer are very tight. I have tried it with two different computers. One has on-board video and the other has a gtx480. Both have the same result. I have looked around the monitor and don't see any knobs to turn. Again I have the Makvision High-res 27" monitor.

Any Ideas?

Edit:
Wow. Never mind. The VGA cable that came with it was bad....!? I have never seen or heard of a bad VGA cable before. That's odd. The other day I thought my computer had died when it was a bad power cord. Had never heard of that either........ cords hate me!


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