What killed the Arcade for you?

[Donkbaca]

Who said I disregard their opinion? I am just calling it for what it is. They aren't some universal end all in terms of what is a good game and what isn't, they are a bunch of people dedicated to restoring old games so their opinion comes from a bias. I admit my bias, I am a 90s arcade guy, but I will not mindlessly defend every 90s arcade game. SO WHAT if I was a kid in the 80s the games are the same now as they were 30 years ago. Some, like to robotron and ms pac man and galaga are good games that stand the test of times because they are good games, others, like moon patrol and centipede just aren't good games in my opinion. They aren't fun to play now. If you disagree then either we have vastly different tastes or you like the games for nostalgia sake, that's fine, but don't tell me I dint get it. I am fully capable of figuring out what is fun to play and what isn't, and I think a lot of the "classics" are more fun ad nostalgia than as a game

[CheffoJeffo]

I really don't think that SF2 should be under the gun at all, weren't ops always looking for the next big thing? Love em or hate em, SF2 ushered an era of the arcade. SF2 should be considered nothing other than a beacon of what a good arcade game in the 90's is.

Of course they were looking -- the point is that, after SF2, they stopped looking and blindly bought because SF2 was such a wild success.

[CheffoJeffo]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

Read Van Burnham's Supercade and you will see the folly of your claim of shenanigans.

There were tons of fun and unique games in the golden age.

 

[Marcade]

What have I done!!!!  stop arguing about the 80's or 90's being better!

I love dedicated cabs but personally feel the typical standup 80's cab to be definitive.
HOWEVER I have a lot of love and respect for a lot of 86 and up games, and there are some great games after 86.
To me it was more about the redemption machines etc.
I completely understand the argument with regards to the price of the dedicated cabs rising the price of the per play game, also the risk was great to the owner, buying a huge dedicated cab only to have the game not be popular must have been soul destroying.

My point is I wouldn't blame any specific game or game generation, designers would have gotten around these issues, new guns and marquee and bam it's a new shooter, I think there was a grab for the machine which would make the most money so the lifespan of a game was reduced, as the prices stayed high there wouldn't be a natural slow down, it was very much all or nothing, you make a load or loose a load.

[skuttduck]

I knew R-Type, Gradius and Life Force were originally arcade games, but let's face it. These games were more popular in Japan. I never seen a Gradius cab before, nor have I ever seen a Life Force. R-Type I seen here and there, but it really wasn't a very popular choice. I am not saying that I didn't like them, I am saying that most ops didn't carry those games in my area. Not sure about the rest of the USA. But in my part of Michigan they were pretty scarce to non-existent, which is probably the case where Malenko is from.

As for PBJs comments on Vs.: Yea I never understood why people even bothered. Back in those days EVERY person I knew owned a NES. If I ever felt the need to play Duck Hunt or Super Mario Bros. I would just go to their house and play for free/unlimited time.

I distinctly remember seeing and playing Life Force at Aladdin's castle in the Meridian Mall in Okemos.  It was the reason I got the game for the NES.

I remember there was always someone playing the arcade version of SMB at Aladdins Castle (they would hog the game).  I remember first seeing someone do the 1-up trick in world 4.  From there I realized I might be able to do that in world 3 on the NES.  I always wanted to play the arcade version of SMB but never did until I made my mame cabinet.  Let me just say, whoever designed world 6-4 in that was one sadistic bastard!

I miss the arcades but I did notice that Pinball Petes still exists and I may have to visit again.  I just hadn't done that since getting married and such.

[Vigo]

I really don't think that SF2 should be under the gun at all, weren't ops always looking for the next big thing? Love em or hate em, SF2 ushered an era of the arcade. SF2 should be considered nothing other than a beacon of what a good arcade game in the 90's is.

Of course they were looking -- the point is that, after SF2, they stopped looking and blindly bought because SF2 was such a wild success.

Well, I don't think SF2 came with a stupidity circuit that make the owners want to buy any old dumb game...it was more that there were a ton of dumb choices out there after SF2.

Nonetheless, I think we are both agreeing that SF2 isn't the problem, it is more that there wasn't the same climate at the time to revive the industry, so it tried to revive itself in the wrong direction. Big specialty machines, redemption junk, and a lack of genre diversity.

[brad808]

"Insert Coin to CONTINUE .... " that killed the Arcade for me.

This actually kills a lot of games for me in mame as well. I try to disable continues as much as possible to keep these games fun for me. I cant find anything fun about a game that you cant lose at. The exception to this being games like ghouls n ghosts where you can continue but you start at the begining of the level again not just where you died.

[Dude111]

When they started ading these newer trash games (Fighting,etc) and removing the GOOD GAMES from the 80s is when it was ruined for me!!

What happend to the good days we remember??

[Mikezilla]

I love that he is hostile, cause I totally agree with him, it saves me the time of typing my posts out as well. Its all an age thing. Aside from pac-man and MAYBE Galaga, if I have my older cousins over, everyone wants to play the games that Donk listed: TMNT, the Street Fighters, the Marvel vs, Simpsons, MK's etc.

I trip out sometimes because I have never even played some of the games you guys have mentioned. Centipede of course, but moon patrol? Im also going to get ostracized(sp) for this, but, I fired up Donkey Kong on the cab last night, and you know what? It was boring. I barely got past the first level and was bored with it. Same with pac-man, or all the other games where the only point is the high score. I understand why most of you like them, but its just not the case for me. Its like I want to like em because they are classic, but man. Some of those obscure games are just not fun to play to me. 

[scofthe7seas]

I could name 50 more great early 80's games no problem.

I call shenanigans.

Read Van Burnham's Supercade and you will see the folly of your claim of shenanigans.

There were tons of fun and unique games in the golden age.

 

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that there may (or may not) be 50 more early 80s arcade classics, so much as I was calling him out on not being able to name 50 more. (at least not without looking them up)

[Xiaou2]

I grew up in the height of the Arcades.  Arcades here were huge and numerous, and had all the classics.  Some of the best times of my life back then.

 At that time however, I was so young and not very good at those games.. so playtimes were short, and money went fast. (luckily it was mostly parents money)

 Unlike some of the stubborn guys here, I change with the times, and actually got into the fighters as well.  But only so far...  SF's, MK until it went 3d, Tekken 3, and probably my top fav, ..Killer Instinct 1.   The other cartoon superhero games held no real interest to me.  To me, they were just way too "over the top".

 A lot of things killed it for me.  Firstly, it was the 3d games before 3d was really a valid option.  Virtual fighter for example, to me was horrendous looking... and there were a lot worse out there. And then every game started coming out in 3d, and the look and playability started to suffer.

 Sure, I loved Ridge Racer, and Daytona USA... but they at had great gameplay.  It seems like shortly after those, all the big racers and large games dropped all challenge, and thus fun.  Most race games, in addition to being dead easy, wouldnt even allow you to crash.  Games like Alpine Racer, had Zero gameplay or challenge, and was merely an expensive gimmick that got played maybe twice by the same person at most. (it also looked like crap)  These cost the Arcade ops tons of money, and they took a huge hit for it.
 
 And finally, there was the Quarter munchers.  You could continue till the end of the game... and then, people would almost never play it again.  Again, no real challenge when you can always continue.  (as stated the exception being GnG, as its supreme difficulty level, and restart of the level )

 With an arcade full of quarter munchers, muncher gun games, fighters that got too complex & or outlandish (or take your money too quickly cause the games cheap or the opps are too skilled), racing games that were not fun, expensive gimmick games with no gameplay, and skill-less jackpot ticket machines... the arcades were pretty much doomed.

 With home systems giving a much better bang, often with better designed games (especially when the "Gimmick Phase" was in swing), and even sometimes more originality... what was left?

 
 The original classic model, where games were actually challenging, was a much better model.  The games were easy sometimes easy to pick up, gave you a little bit of a chance... but then very difficult to master and play on for a period of time.  The level of difficulty progression, was much more finely tuned.  They really drew you in, got your blood pumpin, then hooked you good.  You could play casually, or get down to serious business.. and rock the thing... and either way still feel good about it, and come back for more.

 Many classic games were so good, and satisfying.. that the Arcade Ops didnt need to take them offline / replace them.  (Of course, there was a boon of low quality games that made it through too)  Soon the arcade companies were 'crashing', because the lack of new orders.  The crash wasnt the arcades.  It was the companies that made the games.

[Donkbaca]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

If robotron sucks so bad, why are there endless discussions of the need for 2 sticks so that people can play it, and countless WTB Wico sticks for Robotron?

Why do people want a spinner?  To play Tempest and Tron.  You take away those two games, very, few people would get a spinner I suspect.  Very, very few people put a spinner on their cab to play so they can play arkanoid.  Not saying people don't play arkanoid, or that its not a fun game, its just not a destination game.  People don't see my cab and say, "oh man, does that thing play arkanoid!"

Same for moon patrol.  Never saw a thread that said "what is the best stick for moon patrol"

Donkey Kong (I find it a bit boring too, but mostly because its so hard and I suck at it)  IS a destination game.  Pac Man is, Galaga is, Defender is, Asteroids is, Tempest is.  Centipede, is NOT.  People mostly get trackballs to play Marble Madness, Golden tee, Crystal Castle.

There are some 90s arcade games I LOVE, like Final Fight.  Love that game, that is one of my top three favorite games of all time, but am I going to say that it is a uber-great game that everyone should love and resepect?  No, its a pretty linear beat-em up, nothing really all that special, I just like it.  A lot of the "Good Games" from the 80's are universally loved, regardless of when you grew up.  The others, come on, just admit it, in retrospect, they aren't that good.  

[Mikezilla]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

If robotron sucks so bad, why are there endless discussions of the need for 2 sticks so that people can play it, and countless WTB Wico sticks for Robotron?

Why do people want a spinner?  To play Tempest and Tron.  You take away those two games, very, few people would get a spinner I suspect.  Very, very few people put a spinner on their cab to play so they can play arkanoid.  Not saying people don't play arkanoid, or that its not a fun game, its just not a destination game.  People don't see my cab and say, "oh man, does that thing play arkanoid!"

Same for moon patrol.  Never saw a thread that said "what is the best stick for moon patrol"

Donkey Kong (I find it a bit boring too, but mostly because its so hard and I suck at it)  IS a destination game.  Pac Man is, Galaga is, Defender is, Asteroids is, Tempest is.  Centipede, is NOT.  People mostly get trackballs to play Marble Madness, Golden tee, Crystal Castle.

There are some 90s arcade games I LOVE, like Final Fight.  Love that game, that is one of my top three favorite games of all time, but am I going to say that it is a uber-great game that everyone should love and resepect?  No, its a pretty linear beat-em up, nothing really all that special, I just like it.  A lot of the "Good Games" from the 80's are universally loved, regardless of when you grew up.  The others, come on, just admit it, in retrospect, they aren't that good.  

Yup, youre right, we just dont have that gene.

Haha I love final fight too! And alien vs predator, and even the punisher game is pretty cool.

Couldnt agree more with everything you said. I have never even played Arkanoid.

[Bootay]

Mikezilla and Donk: I don't think that you two "don't get it". And I don't think that because you are younger you don't know what you are talking about. Younger people ARE less fond of the oldies though and that's to be expected. Just like when I show my 12 year old son my Atari 2600 games. He is like "uhhh that's nice...can I play the 360 now?"..

I personally like Moon Patrol but I also played it a lot back when it was a new game. You tend to like games based on what you played. If you didn't play a lot of Moon Patrol growing up, chances are you aren't going to give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about it.

Like I said before, I like all games from all eras of gaming. I can put SF2 as a classic just as much as I can put Ms. Pac-Man personally.

Oh...and I also am a big fan of Final Fight. But I also love all the repetitive brawlers of the 80s-90s.

[Xiaou2]

I never cared much for Centipede or Moon Patrol back in the day.  Still, I do fire them up occasionally.  Arkaniod?  I used to play it often at the arcades.  I sucked at it, but always had fun playing it.   Its def not pong, its more in line with breakout.. but the experience is far superior.  No other breakout clone that Ive ever played, has been as satisfying as Arkanoid. (and Ive played so many of them throughout the yrs)

 As for the 90s being better.. thats really a stretch.  Theres so many great challenging and fun 80s games that just knock the pants off most of the 90s games.

 And this coming from a guy that Likes fighters.

[Vigo]

Who didn't catch Moon Patrol Fever? Every cool Kid in the 80's was sure to have a moon patrol lunch box.  

[scofthe7seas]

Who didn't catch Moon Patrol Fever? Every cool Kid in the 80's was sure to have a moon patrol lunch box.  

One time I had Moon Patrol Fever. Temperature of 104, hospitalized for two weeks; had to get a tracheotomy.

[yotsuya]

I'm going to have to disagree with Donk about Centipede not being a classic. Whenever anyone sees the trackball on my cab, the first thing they always ask is if they can play Centipede. It also seems to be very popular with the ladies, as well.

[Donkbaca]

Yeah, then they play it for like 5 minutes and ask what else you got....

[Bootay]

Yea my wife and all of her friends also love Centipede.

But what I think everyone is missing is, just because you personally don't like a game doesn't mean it's not a classic. I am not a big fan of The Rolling Stones but I would definitely say they are classic rock. I don't like "Gone with the Wind" but I would definitely list it as a classic movie. Defining a classic to me simply means that a lot of people were/are fond of it. Sure, interest in Moon Patrol and Arknoid has waned among your common gamers, but back in the day they were pretty big and popular games. Not on the same level as Pac-Man or Donkey Kong  but still popular. And the people who liked those games back then still like them today. And I would definitely list Centipede as a classic and I never really liked it.

[Donkbaca]

Define classic, other than "I played it when I was a kid"

[Donkbaca]

Define classic, other than "I played it when I was a kid".

To me a classic would seem to have some sort of intrinsic quality that spans generations.  Sinatra is classic, because everyone from my grandpa to my 22 month old daughter loves him.

If something is old and not unviersally liked, its not a classic, its a novelty or a niche product.

Centipede was fun when I was a kid because it had a trackball, and trackballs are fun to spin.  Its not that great of a game, its a novelty.

[yotsuya]

I can assure you they spend more than 5 minutes playing Centipede.

[scofthe7seas]

Alright then, if we're going to be like this :

adj \ˈkla-sik\
Definition of CLASSIC
1
a : serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value <classic literary works>
b : TRADITIONAL, ENDURING <classic designs> c : characterized by simple tailored lines in FASHION year after year <a classic suit>
2
: of or relating to the ancient Greeks and Romans or their culture : CLASSICAL
3
a : historically memorable <a classic battle> b : noted because of special literary or historical associations <Paris is the classic refuge of expatriates>


By these definitions, pretty much whatever anybody here thinks a classic is or isn't is true.

[Bootay]

Donk & scofthe7seas: Yea, well there you go...no one is right. It is all opinion.  
But "3. a. historically memorable" would go back to "whatever you enjoyed in your youth". Any game you played a lot as a kid would be to you "historically memorable" right?

PBJ: LOL

[scofthe7seas]

That's what I mean. Everything. Everything everybody is saying is true.
Something awesome throughout time : classic.
Something awesome during its specific time  : classic

Everybody wins!

[Vigo]

That's what I mean. Everything. Everything everybody is saying is true.
Something awesome throughout time : classic.
Something awesome during its specific time  : classic

Everybody wins!

Does that make Snacks 'n Jackson a classic?

[scofthe7seas]

Is it generally agreed that Snacks'n Jackson is awesome?
I think this could probably be up for debate.

I like it well enough

But honestly, I'm down with any game that has a creepy stretchy/floaty clown head that can accidentally eat soap before his nose explodes through a window.

[saint]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

Maximum flexibility. With the SF layout you can play all the classics as well.

If robotron sucks so bad, why are there endless discussions of the need for 2 sticks so that people can play it, and countless WTB Wico sticks for Robotron?

Gah, who said Robotron sucks? Blasphemy!

Why do people want a spinner?  To play Tempest and Tron.  You take away those two games, very, few people would get a spinner I suspect.  Very, very few people put a spinner on their cab to play so they can play arkanoid.  Not saying people don't play arkanoid, or that its not a fun game, its just not a destination game.  People don't see my cab and say, "oh man, does that thing play arkanoid!"

You're just wrong on that one. You may not like Arkanoid, but it gets lots of love at my house, and I'm talking my kids. I wouldn't rank it in their top 10, but probably in their top 50.

The others, come on, just admit it, in retrospect, they aren't that good.  

Gonna have to agree to disagree. I *like* Moon Patrol, Kangaroo, and others I get aren't on your list.

[saint]

Define classic, other than "I played it when I was a kid"

Never going to get a definition that satisifes everyone. Best metric I know of right now is VAPS/KLOV. Even that data is only as good as people who put into it, which I suspect is older folks so is weighted heavier towards games we're calling classics that you don't agree with. Still, barring better metrics, here's Moon Patrol for instance:

--------------------------------------------
There are 7,416 members of the Video Arcade Preservation Society / Vintage Arcade Preservation Society, 4,504 whom participate in our arcade census project of games owned, wanted, or for sale. Census data currently includes 73,089 machines (4,178 unique titles).

Very Common - There are 223 known instances of this machine owned by Moon Patrol collectors who are members. Of these, 142 of them are original dedicated machines, 5 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards (and possibly cabinet graphics) have been placed in (and on) another game cabinet, and 76 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

For Sale - There are 11 VAPS members with Moon Patrol machines for sale. There are 11 VAPS members with extra Moon Patrol circuit boards for sale. VAPS members are totally independent of VAPS and the International Arcade Museum, and we are unable to recommend, endorse, or guarantee any person or company selling games or game parts.

Wanted - Very Popular - There are 25 VAPS members currently looking for Moon Patrol.

This game ranks a 84 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on census ownership records.

This game ranks a 54 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often wanted, 1=least common) in popularity based on census want list records.
---------------------------------------

Centipede

---------------------------------------
Very Common - There are 621 known instances of this machine owned by Centipede collectors who are members. Of these, 560 of them are original dedicated machines, 7 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards (and possibly cabinet graphics) have been placed in (and on) another game cabinet, and 54 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

For Sale - There are 34 VAPS members with Centipede machines for sale. There are 34 VAPS members with extra Centipede circuit boards for sale. VAPS members are totally independent of VAPS and the International Arcade Museum, and we are unable to recommend, endorse, or guarantee any person or company selling games or game parts.

Wanted - Very Popular - There are 36 VAPS members currently looking for Centipede. There is one VAPS member looking for a Centipede circuit board set.

This game ranks a 99 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on census ownership records.

This game ranks a 70 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most often wanted, 1=least common) in popularity based on census want list records.
------------------------------------

Edit - added some emphasis

[saint]

Mikezilla - we just don't get it.  We were born too late and missed the love moon patrol gene.

Like I said, just pay the attention to the posts around here.  If fighters suck so bad, then why do 90% of the cabs built have a SF layout?

By the way, I don't think fighters suck from a perspective of were/are they popular. Of course they're popular. I think fighters suck personally, as in I don't enjoy them.

[scofthe7seas]

Never going to get a definition that satisifes everyone.

I have a feeling you're responding to individual posts as you make your way down..

[Vigo]

Is it generally agreed that Snacks'n Jackson is awesome?
I think this could probably be up for debate.

I like it well enough

But honestly, I'm down with any game that has a creepy stretchy/floaty clown head that can accidentally eat soap before his nose explodes through a window.

Well, I'm sure for a span of 3 minutes Snacks 'n Jackson was all the rage at the arcade.  Besides, when you put it that way, how can it not be a classic? 

[saint]

To me a classic would seem to have some sort of intrinsic quality that spans generations.  Sinatra is classic, because everyone from my grandpa to my 22 month old daughter loves him.

So trying to use your definition what a classic is as something that stands the test of time:

Moon Patrol was re-released for various platforms in:

1997
1999
2003

Can be played on your cell phone:
http://wireless.ign.com/articles/424/424306p1.html

Was being requested for Xbox Live Arcade
http://forums.xbox.com/5/31823713/ShowPost.aspx

Can be played online today in 2011:
http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21619/Moon-Patrol.html
http://www.onlinegames.net/games/617/moon-patrol.html
(Both implementations kind of stink though)

And something I didn't know, Moon Patrol was the first it seems to have parallax scrolling!
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/gamings-most-important-evolutions/a-20101008102331322035/p-3

"Games like ActRaiser and Street Fighter II took the innovations pioneered by Moon Patrol and used them to create detailed, multi-layered backdrops and, in SFII’s case, 3D-looking floors that would actually shift slightly to match your perspective of the action. "

===============================

Does that meet the test of time?

[yotsuya]

I personally have Moon Patrol on my cab, but I got hooked on the game through the 2600 version, not the arcade one. It's still a lot of fun.

And I would think anyone between 30-45 would consider Centipede a classic arcade game, whether they played it or not.

[CheffoJeffo]

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that there may (or may not) be 50 more early 80s arcade classics, so much as I was calling him out on not being able to name 50 more. (at least not without looking them up)

Then you don't know tok very well -- he's not the kind of guy who posts "What was this game?" questions.

 

[scofthe7seas]

I wasn't disagreeing with the fact that there may (or may not) be 50 more early 80s arcade classics, so much as I was calling him out on not being able to name 50 more. (at least not without looking them up)

Then you don't know tok very well -- he's not the kind of guy who posts "What was this game?" questions.

 

That's surely true. I was mostly basing my comment on my own absolute inability to do so. Hmmm. I think I might be able to stand by my point of him naming 50 "great" games from the 80s. Some of them will have to be questionable for their greatness. Though there is the book you mentioned... I stand by my assumption. A challenge is posed! Although that is obviously for a different topic/thread.

[DNA Dan]

Well one things for sure, SFII killed Marble Madness II. 

[TOK]

That's surely true. I was mostly basing my comment on my own absolute inability to do so. Hmmm. I think I might be able to stand by my point of him naming 50 "great" games from the 80s. Some of them will have to be questionable for their greatness. Though there is the book you mentioned... I stand by my assumption. A challenge is posed! Although that is obviously for a different topic/thread.

Cheffo, thanks for the support!

scofthe7seas, I probably can't name all 50 States but I assure you I can name 50 great 80's games. 
Problem is that there is no way you can verify I'm not cheating without coming over and having a beer while I do it live. You're welcome to do so anytime!

[TOK]

 Unlike some of the stubborn guys here, I change with the times, and actually got into the fighters as well.  But only so far...

Hey Mr Change With The Times, hanging out on a forum where games from the 90's are considered new, how about sharing your thoughts on the newer Stern pins and digital pinball tables.