Please help me with 19" monitor choice...

[alank2]

Hi,

I am planning on building a mame cocktail cabinet and trying to decide what type of monitor

to use.  I've tried TV via composite and s-video and both left me unhappy with picture

quality.  That leaves me with PC Monitor or Arcade Monitor.  My favorite games are the

vertical classics [ms pac-man, zaxxon, galaga] but I like many ther mame games as well.  The

software environment I've decided on is Windows 98 with SmoothMame.  It will always be

running 640x480 at 60hz and 16 bit color.  All mame games will be stretched to full screen

size.  This stretching does fuzzy up the picture which makes the games look better at least

on the PC Monitor's I've tested with.  I realize there are other environments I could use

such as advancemame, but in the goal of trying to not deal with any plug in cards, I am

stuck with Windows 98.  I did try a 19" modern computer monitor and the picture did not

offend me.  I'm really not sure if the authentic look of an arcade monitor would be better

looking to me or not.  My biggest complaint of PC Monitors are the issues of mounting them

(especially since I was surprised to learn that they don't all have that nice metal internal

cage) and that I don't think I could find a bezel to fit the curvature of these PC monitors

exactly.

Here are my questions:

1.  Sizing.  I am planning on using a cabinet kit from Scott @ arcadedepot.  Someone posted

that a 19" arcade monitor has an actual viewable image of 19".  I am surprised by this

because this means that the tube itself must be larger, like a 20" tube.  Can someone

confirm this?  Aren't tubes all measured the same?  If I end up going with a PC monitor do I

need to look for a really strange 20" model?  Did these ever exist?

2.  Mounting.  Does anyone know of a good way to mount a PC monitor.  What if it doesn't

have the internal metal cage?  Is this much more dangerous than an open frame arcade monitor

because it was never designed to be used outside its case?  Do open frame arcade monitors

have more protection from frying yourself (I'm not saying total protection..., just better?)

3.  The U3100 has a dot pitch of 0.71.  Will this look good for *most* mame games?  I know

they say it supports 640x480 and 800x600, but if you do the math there are only about 540

triads across it.  I would think this really wouldn't look very good for 640x480 let alone

800x600.

4.  The U3100 is available with two tube types - ORION vs RCA?  What is different or better

about the RCA ?

5.  I have heard some say that an arcade monitor doesn't support more than 256 colors.  It

seems to me that this is a feature of the video card and not the monitor.  Any comments on

this?

6.  Does the U3100 have scanlines?  Are they close to the orignal?  How are they different?

Thanks for the help and advice, I really appreciate it.

Alan

[Tailgunner]

Personally I'd go with a 19" CGA monitor and ArcadeVGA card for it.  You can buy both and still be out less that the price of the U3100.

Now my bias has been established:  

Here are my questions:

1.  Sizing.  I am planning on using a cabinet kit from Scott @ arcadedepot.  Someone posted

that a 19" arcade monitor has an actual viewable image of 19".  I am surprised by this

because this means that the tube itself must be larger, like a 20" tube.  Can someone

confirm this?  Aren't tubes all measured the same?  If I end up going with a PC monitor do I

need to look for a really strange 20" model?  Did these ever exist?

I don't have a arcade monitor handy to measure (my games are at my shop) but I'm pretty sure the tube is actually 19 inches.

Computer monitors don't project as close to the edge of the tube as either arcade monitors or televisions do. Plus there a marketing angle where "bigger is better" so they use the tube size in big letters and then give you the actual viewable area in the small print. I'd tend to think the U3100 has a 19" tube, but with such a big dot pitch it probably uses more of the tube face than a normal computer monitor.  Either way I wouldn't worry about it, the difference in display area will be minor.

2.  Mounting.  Does anyone know of a good way to mount a PC monitor.  What if it doesn't

have the internal metal cage?  Is this much more dangerous than an open frame arcade monitor

because it was never designed to be used outside its case?  Do open frame arcade monitors

have more protection from frying yourself (I'm not saying total protection..., just better?)

With a normal PC monitor or TV you're probably better off leaving it in the plastic case. Mounting it will be a matter of bracing it in place so it can't fall to the bottom of the cabinet. Look through the main site for examples of how to do this, there should be several that'll give you an idea of what's involved.

If you're going to mount it vertically, remove the back case half, and drill holes in the sides (which will end up being top and bottom once it's mounted) to allow airflow through the case in that orientation. I'd wait to do this till you have the bracing figured out, there's no point in drilling the case in places where the holes will be covered up.

The protection (when it works) is an arcade cabinet will shut down the monitor when you open the cabinet's backdoor. That and arcade technicians usually know what not to touch on an powered up open frame monitor. Either one is more than capable of shocking your arse across the room.

3.  The U3100 has a dot pitch of 0.71.  Will this look good for *most* mame games?  I know

they say it supports 640x480 and 800x600, but if you do the math there are only about 540

triads across it.  I would think this really wouldn't look very good for 640x480 let alone

800x600.

It should look okay for normal raster games, but I tend to think it'd look awful on vector games or in windows. Unless you favor the vector games or plan to web surf from you cabinet I don't think it'd be much of an issue.

4.  The U3100 is available with two tube types - ORION vs RCA?  What is different or better

about the RCA ?

5.  I have heard some say that an arcade monitor doesn't support more than 256 colors.  It

seems to me that this is a feature of the video card and not the monitor.  Any comments on

this?

I don't know about number 4.

Standard arcade monitors are essentially televisions without a tuner section or case. The inputs are analog, so the color variations don't have limitations like a digital computer monitor.

6.  Does the U3100 have scanlines?  Are they close to the orignal?  How are they different?

Thanks for the help and advice, I really appreciate it.

A VGA monitor has twice as many scanlines as a CGA monitor as it's a function of the horizontal refresh rate.  MAME has a scanlines option to fake the look of CGA scanlines, but I can't say how authentic it would look on a U3100. Using them looks better on my 19" desktop monitor, but (IMHO) it's still not quite right compared to playing on a real arcade monitor.

HTH,

Butch...

[alank2]

Butch,

Thanks for replying--I appreciate it, I have a few more questions:

Personally I'd go with a 19" CGA monitor and ArcadeVGA card for it.  You can buy both and still be out less that the price of the U3100.
Now my bias has been established:  

Yes, I thought about ArcadeVGA/Std Arcade Monitor, but I don't have an AGP slot (darn intel oem motherboard) and I wanted to keep from using any plug in cards so I could just mount the motherboard without a PC case.  If the benefits of this combo outweigh the U3100 I would consider getting another motherboard and putting stuff in a case.  Please elaborate more...

I don't have a arcade monitor handy to measure (my games are at my shop) but I'm pretty sure the tube is actually 19 inches. Computer monitors don't project as close to the edge of the tube as either arcade monitors or televisions do.

Cool--that certainly is good to know if I go the 19" computer monitor route which I am leaning more towards.  I really like the picture of a PC monitor and its lack of scanlines doesn't offend me.  Since I am planning on a cocktail table, it would be on its back, glass up.  Do you think I should consider adding a fan to force air through it since hot air can't rise up like it normally would?

Also, 19" monitors come in either a FST (flat square tube) which is NOT totally flat, or a perfectly flat face.  I at first thought about the not perfectly flat because it would give a more authentic look, but I wonder how well a standard arcade bezel would fit a FST.  And then there is perfecly flat--it certainly would not look authentic, but maybe it would look really good.  A perfectly flat one may be easier to find a bezel for, I'm not sure.  Any thoughts?

Thanks for the help and advice,

Alan

[Tailgunner]

Heh, I should have checked Arcade Depot before posting.  

A Ms. Pacman style cocktail cabinet is going to be a bit more work as far as mounting a PC monitor, the arcade monitor is attached to the top and swings out with it when you open the cabinet.

Thinking about it, I'd make a open "box" (See picture) out of 2x4 lumber that stands up from the bottom of the cabinet. The monitor case would catch three sides of the frame, and you'd need to wedge the monitor bottom to keep it in place. A block or two further down the frame under the back of the case would probably be a good idea as well.


Judging from the size of my Pacman cocktail cabinet, I don't think it would be possible to fit even one of the tiny computer cases inside. The 19" arcade monitor in it nearly touches the bottom without a case around it. You can fit a motherboard and arcadeVGA card inside without a case, Oscar has an excellent example posted in the project announcement forum. That said, if your happy with a VGA monitor and want to use your current motherboard, there's no reason you can't do so.

I think a fan is a necessity  in a cocktail cabinet, my Pacman cab has one mounted in bottom that pulls air in and forces it out through two speaker grilles. (Cab has three speaker grills, only one has a speaker.) The computer power supply's fan will help stir the air in the cab, but I'd still plan on a seperate fan to force air through the cab.

[alank2]

Heh, I should have checked Arcade Depot before posting.  
A Ms. Pacman style cocktail cabinet is going to be a bit more work as far as mounting a PC monitor, the arcade monitor is attached to the top and swings out with it when you open the cabinet.

Yes, I saw that door mounted monitor on a few websites.  I would prefer to mount the monitor in a way that doesn't require it being moved when opening the cab, so I plan to build a framework from the other side (that doesn't open) to support it instead.

Thinking about it, I'd make a open "box" (See picture) out of 2x4 lumber that
stands up from the bottom of the cabinet. The monitor case would catch three
sides of the frame, and you'd need to wedge the monitor bottom to keep it in
place. A block or two further down the frame under the back of the case would
probably be a good idea as well.

Your box picture looks cool!  Yes, I agree.  I think I've given up on the expense of the U3100.  Its 0.71 dot pitch may look great with old games, but I wonder how happy I would be after parting with that much cash.  My two main concerns left are how to get the front of the monitor off of it and getting a bezel to match.  I had a $99 after rebate 19" monitor from best buy (mag 771fs-s), but after opening the case I found that the tube itself is more mounted to the front plastic bezel than the back.  Maybe this is the case for most monitors.  I was also expecting a metal internal cage and ended up taking it back because it didn't have this.  I found out later than most modern monitors do not have the metal cage which is too bad, that would have been handy to mount with directly although it might have been too weak (metal cage for EMI purposes isn't very strong).  I'm going to need to remove that plastic front so I need to try and find a monitor that allows that pretty easily.

Oscar has an excellent example posted in the project announcement forum. That said, if your happy with a VGA monitor and want to use your current motherboard, there's no reason you can't do so.

Where can I find this?  Do you mean at oscarcontrols.com ?

I think a fan is a necessity  in a cocktail cabinet, my Pacman cab has one mounted in bottom that pulls air in and forces it out through two speaker grilles. (Cab has three speaker grills, only one has a speaker.) The computer power supply's fan will help stir the air in the cab, but I'd still plan on a seperate fan to force air through the cab.

Yes, the idea of using a speaker grille to cover an air inlet/outlet is a great one, I plan to do that.  I do plan on using a fan on the cabinet to pull cooler air in at the bottom forcing warmer air out the speaker grilles at the sides towards the top.  Do you think I should still consider an extra fan attached to the PC monitor since it will be on its back and likely trapping heat?  The extra fan could be mounted on the side of the monitor and help bring cold air into it.

Thanks,

Alan

[Tailgunner]

Oscar's cocktail cab is at:http://www.oscarcontrols.com/cocktail/

I've seen where people just unbolted the tube from the case and hung it from the tube mounting brackets. I'd probably bust the tube trying something like that, and personally wouldn't reccommend such an idea to anyone.

I don't see why the case needs to be removed, though I'd ventilate it to allow for proper air flow through it. I would paint the monitor's bezel black, and possibly add a piece of smoked plexiglas over it. If you ask, Scott may be able to route the table's top to hold the plexi in place over the monitor's face.

I wouldn't bother with another fan, with enough holes in the case it should provide little resistance to the cabinet's cooling fan.