The Whole Toyota Debacle.......Your Thoughts.

[Vanguard]

Before I would buy another Honda, I would do a quick search for known issues with the model/year vehicle.   If there were known problems, then I'd either buy a different brand or same brand but different vehicle.    I would not buy a Honda with a known defect.

These types of fundamental flaws tend to happen when a particular badge (Odyssey in this case) is redesigned/refreshed.   I've always heard not to buy a new model vehicle the first year it comes out.   Honda seems to redesign models every 3-5 years and most of the kinks get worked out in the first year.   That is what the warranty is for.  Unfortunately sometimes, problems are such that they don't arise until after the warranty period and so far Honda has been very accommodating with these issues.

We had an Accord at one time and got a letter from Honda stating that some people are having transmission problems when shifting from reverse to forward without coming to a complete stop (which sounds like a bad idea to me).   Honda said due to these problem, they were extending our transmission warranty and additional 10 YEARS!!!

I never once had a problem with the transmission in that vehicle so it never effected me.   The fact that they did it though was very comforting.

I could just as easily buy any other brand and run into these same issues.   The one thing I do know is that if it were an American brand and I was out of warranty, I'd be footing the bill.

[Fordman]

We had an Accord at one time and got a letter from Honda stating that some people are having transmission problems when shifting from reverse to forward without coming to a complete stop (which sounds like a bad idea to me).   Honda said due to these problem, they were extending our transmission warranty and additional 10 YEARS!!!

Sounds like Honda did the right thing then rather than face a public relations nightmare. They have have gotten so many complaints that instead of issuing a recall or brand wide fix, they fixed them voluntarily on a case by case basis. I just wonder how many people had their Oddysey's fixed at a third party shop and didnt know about the free fix they were giving away? Also it goes back to software not letting the valvebody switch the gears. You cant just throw a post 1998 transmission into park at full speed anymore (give it a try if you want to, but I wouldnt recommend it). Although it shouldnt shift into park or reverse at a speed above 3mph software at that time wasnt as good as it is now and was still relativly new to the industry.

Now the old transmissions, you throw that baby into reverse at 100mph, guess where that trans will be? Probably all over the ground and up into the drivers seat next to you!

Fordman

[HaRuMaN]

 

[Vanguard]

We had an Accord at one time and got a letter from Honda stating that some people are having transmission problems when shifting from reverse to forward without coming to a complete stop (which sounds like a bad idea to me).   Honda said due to these problem, they were extending our transmission warranty and additional 10 YEARS!!!

Sounds like Honda did the right thing then rather than face a public relations nightmare. They have have gotten so many complaints that instead of issuing a recall or brand wide fix, they fixed them voluntarily on a case by case basis. I just wonder how many people had their Oddysey's fixed at a third party shop and didnt know about the free fix they were giving away? Also it goes back to software not letting the valvebody switch the gears. You cant just throw a post 1998 transmission into park at full speed anymore (give it a try if you want to, but I wouldnt recommend it). Although it shouldnt shift into park or reverse at a speed above 3mph software at that time wasnt as good as it is now and was still relativly new to the industry.

Now the old transmissions, you throw that baby into reverse at 100mph, guess where that trans will be? Probably all over the ground and up into the drivers seat next to you!

Fordman

The shifting from reverse to forward was a problem with the Accord.  There actually was a recall for the Odyssey transmission.   The Odyssey transmission had a different issue with the 2nd gear breaking down and clogging up the oil lines and thus starving the transmission for cooling.   Honda initially did a recall and added a second cooling jet that sprayed oil directly on the gear that was breaking down.

Here is the recall: http://world.honda.com/news/2004/printerfriendly/4040414.html

We had the recall done but several years later, the transmission still failed (2 years out of warranty).   That's when Honda stepped up and took care of us.

[Hoopz]

+1

[hypernova]

We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

They might have been just a hair biased or even disgruntled towards their former employer.

[protokatie]

Just great, so now we cant toggle between F and R above 3 Mph? I live in MAINE! It IS REQUIRED that you toggle between F and R at about 20 mph!

I guess I will stick to my manual transmissions, thank you... (And laugh at all those people who have a drive wheel stuck in a slippery mud/ice hole as they call for a tow truck)

[northerngames]

goofy things happen all the time in the auto's I just expect ford gm and chrystler to be treated like dirt also when toyota point's some of their flaws out.

we needed to do/find something they were killing us in sales right?

I dont recall this big of a fuss over them suv's and tires a few years back that were blowing out and rolling and also there were suv's that were losing there steering and going off the road rolling etc. my buddy had a blow out on his and rolled it and he fell on his dad's side and broke 1-2 of his ribs from the impact there were many more accidents with them then what there harping on toyota for by a long shot.

they treated that like it was no big deal and off the news and tv within a week.

I don't care for toyota and never have really so I am not trying to stick up for them I just think there being a little tuff on them to make there sales plumit while we get back in action becuase we certianly did not treat ourselve's like that when our auto's go goofy if anything it is hush hush like they tried to do and some of the time's the dealers offer a cash/deduction bribe instead of fixing the damn thing like dodge gave someone I know they were offered a buy out for around 10K off there new veicle becuase it was a lemon due to the transmission going every other week and the could not fix it were it worked like it was supposed to.

[TOK]

Read up on Chevy pickup sidesaddle fuel tanks and Ford Ignitions if you think Japan is being treated unfavorably because "they were beating us in sales". The show 20/20 actually rigged a Chevy to blow up when they couldn't reproduce the claimed results of the fuel tank problem.

Toyota screwed this up themselves. They've apparently known about it for a while, and when it became public they tried blaming it on floor mats instead of addressing the real issue.

[northerngames]

Exactly I never knew of heard of that until you just mentioned it to me.

I have heard all about toyota lately though 

[Howard_Casto]

I think that people are letting toyota get off a little to easily.  It isn't the fact that they had a problem with the cars, every car has bugs and flaws that reveal themselves over time.  The problem is they knew about the problem(s) for YEARS and rather than fixing them, they decided to cover it up and us their hefty corporate might to ban the safety commissions from even investigating the problem.  These aren't minor issues like we've seen in the past on recalls either... not being able to stop your car is a BIG ---smurfin--- DEAL!

The people who have responded with things like "Well they admitted the cars had a problem and are handling the recall nicely so I'll keep buying from them." Are living in a DREAM WORLD.  They did NOT admit they had a problem until it became so public and so many people had been injured and/or LOST THEIR LIVES that they were forced to.  Even then, they didn't take any real action until every news broadcast in the US hammered them daily about how their "fixes" weren't working. Even now the proposed fixes are laughable.

Since this seems to be confusing some, let me put it in gamer terms. 

When the wii was first released there were rumors (turned out to be just that) of people getting injured from their wrist strap breaking on their wiimotes and getting hit with flying controllers.  Nintendo IMMEDIATELY issued a recall promotion and improved the strap sending it out to every registered wii user for free. Keep in mind they didn't have to as no real injuries had ever been reported, but they did it anyway beacuse they were making a ton of money off the wii and felt morally responsible for their failure.  They went on to release yet another strap revision and now all wiimotes come packed with an optional gel cover.  Keep in mind nobody ever got hurt, but they did all of this because they were worried somebody MIGHT get hurt.  This, friends, is a responsible business model.

Now think of the xbox 360.  The damn thing had issues since day 1 and yet it took M$ nearly three YEARS to even admit there was a problem.  Even now they have no real solution to the problem and the flaw apparently still exists and their "solution" is to extend the warranty an additional year, which is crap because most people keep a game console for 5 years or more.  This is what toyota did guys.  Basically they pretended the problem didn't exist for years and when they were found out only offered a non-solution that doesn't really address the core issue.

Now keep in mind I own both a wii and 360, but hey, a dead 360 won't kill me.  A runaway car on the other hand just might.

I own a chevy, mom owns a pontiac, grandma owns a ford.  We support these brands beacause it helps our nations economy and in our opinion they offer a superior product, despite the fact that they don't come with as many bells and whistles.  Perhaps you should all consider buying american and seeing what a REAL car is like. 

With that being said, if the US auto industry doesn't wise up and start offering full on electric cars, I might have to change that policy.  Oil is an irresponsible fuel source at this point and the only way to develop better technology is to get the alternatives out to market NOW... thus driving down the cost this new tech. 

People always have the argument "the tech isn't ready yet"  and they are right.  But it isn't ready because we haven't sold it.  When the ipod first came out a solid state mp3 player was 400 bucks minimum.  10 years later you can pick up a cheap one for under 20 bucks.  Nothing has really changed except for the fact that demand for the product became so great that streamlined production naturally occured and thus the price of components went down. 

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

[TOK]

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

There are no American cars, only American car companies. All of them build cars in Mexico and Canada. Chevy slaps their name on Daewoo's (Aveo) and most of their mainstream cars use a platform developed by Opal. Google Epsilon and Delta platforms if you want enlightenment.

Toyota and GM share an assembly plant in Freemont CA.
Nissan has a huge factory in Mississippi.

What is more American, a Nissan built by Americans or a Chevy built by $3 per hour Mexicans?

To put it in gamer terms for you, your XBox might be from Microsoft, but its made in China.

[AtomSmasher]

Just got around to reading the second page of this thread and thought I'd mention that about 4 months ago Saturn (a GM company) did an out of warranty repair on my car as if it was still under warranty.  It wasn't as major as a new transmission, but I was still very grateful to not have to pay to get the repair done.  Also, they obviously weren't looking to do me a favor in the hopes that I would be a repeat customer since Saturn had already announced that all their dealerships would be closing down.

[hyiu]

......beacuse they were making a ton of money off the wii and felt morally responsible for their failure.  They went on to release yet another strap revision and now all wiimotes come packed with an optional gel cover.  Keep in mind nobody ever got hurt, but they did all of this because they were worried somebody MIGHT get hurt.  This, friends, is a responsible business model.

...
I own a chevy, mom owns a pontiac, grandma owns a ford.  We support these brands beacause it helps our nations economy and in our opinion they offer a superior product, despite the fact that they don't come with as many bells and whistles.  Perhaps you should all consider buying american and seeing what a REAL car is like. 


People always have the argument "the tech isn't ready yet"  and they are right.  But it isn't ready because we haven't sold it.  When the ipod first came out a solid state mp3 player was 400 bucks minimum.  10 years later you can pick up a cheap one for under 20 bucks.  Nothing has really changed except for the fact that demand for the product became so great that streamlined production naturally occured and thus the price of components went down. 

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

hmmm.... morally responsible for their failure ??
is it really that ?  How do you know ?
Or maybe its good for their future business ??

given that maybe.... just maybe... noone is really hurt from a fly away wiimote...
but we have seen videos on broken LCD screens that caused by fly away wiimote...

I'm no lawyer, but if Nintendo does not fix that quick, I'm smelling lawsuit and property damage with a defective product...

yes, its good that Nintendo fixes its problem... but put it as MORALLY RESPONSIBLE ?
I think that is pushing it.

I think Nintendo, is just like most other company, is looking for profit, maybe a smarter company that will willing to spend a little of its profit margin for longer term profit and minimize potential lawsuits.


----

On another note,

I used to own a Pontiac, then Acura, then Lexus.

I learned how to fix car with the Pontiac.  It gives me so much problem.  leaking motor oil, steering fluid, transmission fluid... (at that time, I didn't even know there were so freaking many different kind of oils in a car...) alternator problem, over heat problem. died on me on the road multi times.

Acura and Lexus, on the other hand, are better built, better quality products...
(purely based on my personal experiences.)

I will not go to American brands.... until they can come out with something that ican beat competition hands down, and so far, I don't see any sign of it.

---------

and as others have said... American cars might not be build in US, while Jap cars are no longer coming from Japan.  I believe cars like Accord, and Camry are now made in US, but I'm no expert. 

My lexus is made in Canada, not exactly Jap made.

---------

As for elecrtic / hybird cars, when owning one cost less then a normal car over the lifetime of a car, tthen I'll buy.

According to what I read... again limited personal opinion,  Pirus is the only one that will come out ahead.  also, maintainence and resell value suffers.

Keep in mind, car is no MP3 players.
the BIGGEST 2 purchases in your life will probably be house, and car.

While I might buy a Tube power amp for $3000 and "take a gamble"...

when it comes to a car which I'm stuck for probably 5+yrs and $30+k,
I would rather be safe than sorry...

So, comparing mp3 players, ipod, and electric / hybird cars is not a good example.

[FrizzleFried]

We have the Lexus (fancy Camry) that went out of control for 6 miles at speeds of over 100mph in Tennesee, USA that we all heard about on tv from the owner.

This happened in SANTEE, CALIFORNIA not Tennesee... I used to live about a mile from the "end of freeway" that those poor folks came down and hit the barrier.

(EDIT: Not sure if you're talking about the same incident.... the situation in Santee ended with a family dying and the driver was a guy who was a Highway Patrolman...)

 

[CheffoJeffo]

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

There are no American cars, only American car companies. All of them build cars in Mexico and Canada. Chevy slaps their name on Daewoo's (Aveo) and most of their mainstream cars use a platform developed by Opal. Google Epsilon and Delta platforms if you want enlightenment.

Toyota and GM share an assembly plant in Freemont CA.
Nissan has a huge factory in Mississippi.

What is more American, a Nissan built by Americans or a Chevy built by $3 per hour Mexicans?

+1

Between me, my family and my in-laws, we have owned nearly a dozen Ford vehicles ... not a one built in the USA. All the evil jap cars ... built in the USA.

[Fordman]

We have the Lexus (fancy Camry) that went out of control for 6 miles at speeds of over 100mph in Tennesee, USA that we all heard about on tv from the owner.

This happened in SANTEE, CALIFORNIA not Tennesee... I used to live about a mile from the "end of freeway" that those poor folks came down and hit the barrier.

(EDIT: Not sure if you're talking about the same incident.... the situation in Santee ended with a family dying and the driver was a guy who was a Highway Patrolman...)

Separate incident from the Patrolman and his family. The one in Tennesee is where the lady had one stick one her for 6 miles at speeds of 100mph and then she claims 'God intervened' and stopped the car.

Fordman

[Dartful Dodger]

Ever hear that thing about the true measure of a company being not how they treat you when things go right, but what they do when things go wrong?

I agree with pinballjim.  My first car was a Chevy and for most of my life I've owned Chevy's and I haven't had any major problems with them.

I bought a Dodge that goes through bearings like candy.

I'd rather buy a car that doesn't need any major repairs from a company that doesn't care about public relations than a POS from a company that gives me a doughnut and cup of coffee every time I have to bring the car in for repair.

Although the whole government running Chevy scares me, so my next car will be a Ford.  If they don't work out I'll go back to Chevy.

[CheffoJeffo]

HONEST QUESTION (really!): Are there readily available stats as to "who builds what car ?" in a format that most of us can understand ?

I am genuinely tired of folks saying "Buy American" (meaning Big 3), thinking it supports American workers, and then having to say "I've owned a shitload of Fords and none of them were built in the USA". My experience is, obviously, anecdotal and there are going to be people who tell you to buy "American" because the workers are unionized and protected (which is an already-polarized statement that can be addressed in P&R), but many of the cars from those brands are actually build in dirty, dirty places like China, Messico or Canuckistan.

To me, supporting local workers, means buying products that are made by local workers.

I could give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- who gets the remaining profits, if any (apologies to all of those who own stock in the Big 3, but there are a lot of people who should apologize to you before I do!)

It would be nice, for a change, to see how many local, or near-neighbour, workers were supported by my purchase of Vehicle A.

Then *I* can add that to my acquisition decision, as opposed to blindly saying "I buy X because it supports Y", without the first freaking clue as to whether it supports anything at all.

I would be really happy if somebody would actually present things honestly instead of people just wrapping themselves in company colours and pretending that they are wearing flags.

 

[Vanguard]

To me, supporting local workers, means buying products that are made by local workers.

Exactly.   Who cares if the profits go to a US company when all they do with those profits is create more jobs in Canada and Mexico?

I've owned 4 Honda's all built in the U.S.   Only one that ever had a major issue (transmission) was replaced free of charge 2 years out of warranty.

Only "American" car I've owned was built in Mexico and was the biggest piece of crap ever made.   Chrysler didn't stand behind the product and their service center broke it worse more often than they fixed it.   The vehicle only had 25,000 miles on it after 7 years.   I'd hate to see what it would have been like if I drove it more.  I dump $3500.00 into the piece of junk just so I could turn around a sell it for $5500.  

Two out of my four Honda's lasted more than 10 years and had over 150,000 miles on them.  Not once did they ever have anything more than a regular service.  My current Honda has 78,000 on it and there is nothing at all wrong with it.   I expect to easily have it for another 5-7 years.   Our family will probably outgrow the need for it before it dies.  The only Honda we had less than 10 years was one that we replaced early due to kids and a need for more room.

I'll stick with my American made Honda's.   Honda has quality, stands behind the product,  employs Americans and they have good coffee, donuts and a loaner vehicle when I drop my car off for an oil change.  

[Epyx]

Now we share an '08 Honda CR-V and love it. No problems so far.

+1 never a problem. My wife is now driving our old 2001 civic...only ever done oil changes, breaks once and coming up on timing belt.

[Fordman]

my Ford F-150 was 60/40 USA / Mexico.

I'll guarantee you the F-150 body, bed, engine, transmission, seats, dash and components, frame, tires, battery & windows were all made in the USA. The wire looms, harneses, lights, head light, tail lights, bumper, interior trim, seat belts, center console (if you have one), carpet, head liner, outer mirrors, rear view mirror, and wheels were either made in mexico or Canada.

Fordman

[northerngames]

my Ford F-150 was 60/40 USA / Mexico.

I'll guarantee you the F-150 body, bed, engine, transmission, seats, dash and components, frame, tires, battery & windows were all made in the USA. The wire looms, harneses, lights, head light, tail lights, bumper, interior trim, seat belts, center console (if you have one), carpet, head liner, outer mirrors, rear view mirror, and wheels were either made in mexico or Canada.

Fordman

it would also be nice to find out where the actual materials themselve's come from to start each and should be accounted for also like the rubber metal oil grease piant mold plastic wire etc. and perhaps the machine's that make each of them parts too.

[Ed_McCarron]

my Ford F-150 was 60/40 USA / Mexico.

I'll guarantee you the F-150 body, bed, engine, transmission, seats, dash and components, frame, tires, battery & windows were all made in the USA. The wire looms, harneses, lights, head light, tail lights, bumper, interior trim, seat belts, center console (if you have one), carpet, head liner, outer mirrors, rear view mirror, and wheels were either made in mexico or Canada.

Fordman

it would also be nice to find out where the actual materials themselve's come from to start each and should be accounted for also like the rubber metal oil grease piant mold plastic wire etc. and perhaps the machine's that make each of them parts too.

Whats next?  Where the air in the tires is from?

I look at a car.  I look at its track record.  I look at its price.  Do I really care where its built?

[shateredsoul]

If they admitted the issue from the beginning I would be more willing to trust Toyota, but even the early reports seemed fishy.  An issue with the floor mats? Human error? pedal issues? Yeah right..

For every news article (online) I always read the comments, there were many people commenting about still having issues after taking the floor mats out etc.

I will probably never buy Toyota again,  If they had admitted the issue from the beginning and accepted their mistakes, I would be willing to go back to them.  But now I know that if there's a future issue with their cars, they'll react this way and claim it's only a minor issue and it will easily get fixed.  Tell that to the families who have had their car rear-end other card, run into intersections, run through their garage, or kill who have been killed because of this issue with their cars.

If I sold someone something that killed them (not due to their own mistakes), I bet i'd be in jail right now.

As for Fords, in general my family has had good experiences with Ford Trucks... my Father in law had really bad luck with a Ford Ranger from 2001.  Handles and pieces literally pulled off that truck like no other (the back door to the bed just came off once). I've heard good things about newer Fords.

[danny_galaga]

Hello All,

Several pundits on tv have questioned why she just didnt throw it into neutral, park or reverse.
I think that wouldnt have helped anyway. The transmissions are programmed to not go into a reverse or park when at speeds above 3mph. this is done to save the hardware within the gearbox. The valve body control module wouldnt let it go into the neutral or park mode as programmed - designed. But it should have been allowed to go into neutral and then while in neutral, the rpm's of the engine should rev down to 'idle' rpm's. The error is the not allowing the transmission to go into neutral. I think Toyota's issue is a software issue and not a hardware one. This little 1" x 1" piece of metal being added to the pedal I think is a "I can see the fix, so I know they fixed it" kinda feel good fix for people. I work with engineers all the time and they will tell you alot of issues are now electronics and the software within them and no so much a mecanical part.

This sort of issue has been cropping up for the last 20 years in aircraft, alarmingly. That is to say, there is a huge advantage to automating more and more processes. But sometimes there will be a scenario that no one had envisaged. A scenario where if the process was totally manual, the pilot could make a command decision and use his imagination. Probably one of the first instances where an automated system couldn't cope with an unusual variable was one of the Apollo missions. While on the ground, there was a small fire in the capsule. Most likely completely survivable, except that as the fire burned, it of course was depleting oxygen. The oxygen sensor detected the drop in levels and increased the level. The result was disaster. More famously, Airbus have had some freaky incidences with fly by wire tech because the situation while unusual was quite clear to a human, but not to the computer.

The new Toyota CEO came out about these probs before the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- really started to hit the fan, which was interesting. (edit: maybe not now i think about it. In Australia, it seemed the case because we didn't have as many sensational incidents as in the US. Maybe those models didn't come here or something)

Fordman, what you say about being able to go into neutral, is that what they are supposed to do, or is this your thoughts? Seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do. Very easy to program for too.

I'll stick to my 39 year old VW for now. The only thing electronic in it is the stereo, and that's broken  

[danny_galaga]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

Hey, i used to own a Daewoo Matiz, and it was an awesome little car! Seemed like it was only running on 3 cylinders though 

[danny_galaga]

it would also be nice to find out where the actual materials themselve's come from to start each and should be accounted for also like the rubber metal oil grease piant mold plastic wire etc. and perhaps the machine's that make each of them parts too.

Most of the iron, and coal to smelt it into steel, probably comes from here. Thats for any car in the world. SO for us Aussies, we don't care WHAT car you buy, we still export the same amount 

[Cakemeister]

One thing is for certain. The lawyers will get paid.

[Fordman]

I agree, the lawyers will get 80% of any settlement! 

As for the question for the transmission not going into neutral, they should go into neutral by design, whether it be software or manually placed into neutral. The neutral position is considered the total 'dis-engagement' point. Automatic transmissions have an auto clutch system that when placed into neutral ,the clutch should totally disengage the gear sets. A manual trans is controlled by the driver at all times, the auto trans is software controlled by the valve body. If the software is bad, it wont let the clutch disengage, also it could have been programmed once it gets to a certain gear ratio - rpm - it could bump up the speed, that is where it could be telling the fuel intake that it needs a little more kick to shift again or into overdrive.

A little disclaimer here: I have worked for many years with many types of transmissions. Im no expert on them all. I have worked with 3 speeds, CVT's, 4 speeds with or without overdrives, 5 speed truck trans, 6 speen FWD - AWD trans and many many internal components. I was a 'lab-tech' for 5 years. I placed randomly chosen trans from the assembly line onto test stands in a simulated drive machine. The drive machine basically 'drove' the trans in many different driving situations, from stop to 60mph to stop within 45 seconds to a simulated 2500 mile drive in a 24 hours period at various mph to whole time on the test stand. I'm not a repairman, but a somewhat knowledgable factory worker.

Disclaimer 2: The Ford Escape Hybrid drive system is a Toyota engine/trans/battery pack. The Escape hybrid drive system was so similarly designed, For went ahead and decided to pay toyota for their technology rather than produce it. Ford was worried about lawsuits from toyota.

Fordman