The Whole Toyota Debacle.......Your Thoughts.

[Fordman]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

On the Toyota issue, 8.5 million recalled cars-trucks world wide due to different reasons (brakes-sudden acceleration-rusting frames).

We have the Lexus (fancy Camry) that went out of control for 6 miles at speeds of over 100mph in Tennesee, USA that we all heard about on tv from the owner.
Several pundits on tv have questioned why she just didnt throw it into neutral, park or reverse.
I think that wouldnt have helped anyway. The transmissions are programmed to not go into a reverse or park when at speeds above 3mph. this is done to save the hardware within the gearbox. The valve body control module wouldnt let it go into the neutral or park mode as programmed - designed. But it should have been allowed to go into neutral and then while in neutral, the rpm's of the engine should rev down to 'idle' rpm's. The error is the not allowing the transmission to go into neutral. I think Toyota's issue is a software issue and not a hardware one. This little 1" x 1" piece of metal being added to the pedal I think is a "I can see the fix, so I know they fixed it" kinda feel good fix for people. I work with engineers all the time and they will tell you alot of issues are now electronics and the software within them and no so much a mecanical part.

I dont have any thoughts about the Prius brake issue as I havent followed up on that one yet.

As for the rusty frames - rusty hangers, the spare tires falling off the Tundra's, the metals used on the frames and tire hangers where made by AK Steel in Ohio. The date for the manufacturing of the frames and hangers are the same as when the AK Steel plant had a worker strike, so there may be a quality issue with the steel from that plant.

Those are just my thoughts, Yours

Fordman

[Vanguard]

I really don't see what the big deal is.   I couldn't believe the government dragged Toyota before congress to explain how they dropped the ball.  U.S. automakers have been doing as bad or worse with quality for a lot longer and have never been called on it.

My first and last American car was a Dodge Ram.   I had 3 steering columns replaced in the vehicle because the crumple tube kept breaking causing me to lose the ability to steer.   Each time it happened, It could have been life threatening.   I did some research and found that it was a known issue.

1) There was never a recall
2) The third time it happened the vehicle was out of warranty and Chrysler refused to pay for ANY of it.   The column alone was $1500.00 with tons of labor to replace it.
3) This was just the most serious of a long line of constant problems with the vehicle.

It's actually kind of funny,  It's like we expect the American automakers to build crap and we get riled when the Japanese do the same.   I guess we've come to expect more out of them than U.S. automakers.  I guess that's because more Asian autos are made in the U.S. than U.S autos?

[ark_ader]

I support American products and I buy Chevy. 

[Vanguard]

Chevy makes more cars/trucks in Canada and Mexico than they do the U.S.

The same is true for most U.S. Automakers.

[Ginsu Victim]

I support American products and I buy Chevy. 

Government Motors?

No thanks.

[saint]

Meh. Today's just Toyota's turn in the barrel. I think no higher nor lower of Toyota after this.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

Well, I think it's a good move that where Toyota is aware that there is a possible safety issue it is recalling vehicles, at least they are not repeating the whole Ford Pinto petrol tank issue.

The problem is that their brand image has taken a huge whacking. They hadn't been selling fantastically well in the UK before these problems, I can't see this helping their situation.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

[SavannahLion]

Meh. Today's just Toyota's turn in the barrel. I think no higher nor lower of Toyota after this.

+1

I've owned a Chevy S-10 (which I loved) and had the engine blow out (which I hated). I owned a Nissan Pickup that had the engine wreck itself (twice), damaged electronics, damaged radiator, blew the drive axle (the week of my father's death) and I have a Toyota Tacoma (which I adore). My father owned Ford for most of his life and the last one, the F150, sucked ass, it had so many engine and transmission trouble it almost wasn't worth owning. Same goes for my Mother with a ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up Ford. My Fiance with a Windstar with a transmission that needed repairs not once, but twice and a bad brake module Ford seems to have trouble fixing.

My brother works as a mechanic on high end cars, eg Porsche, Ferrari, Mercedes, etc. The problems he describes for these cars are just as bad.

In the end. I don't like Ford (sorry Fordman) and I really like Toyota. Do I blame Ford or Toyota? Yes and no. It's a combination of problems that all stem from the same ultimate root cause, the consumers desire to get the cheapest highest quality car. Different car manufacturers resolve the problem differently, eg Porsche charges out the ass for their cars. However others approach the problem differently, Toyota streamlines their manufacturing process (in part) by sharing the same components across multiple models, reducing the need for costly R&D. In the long run, this hopefully saves money somewhere since the auto manufacturer isn't recreating the wheel with every new model. But if there's a problem... boy there would be a problem.

So if Toyota didn't reuse the same component, and only one specific model was affected, would congress have dragged Toyoda into their sites? Most likely not. At least Toyoda ultimately took personal responsibility, which is more than what I can say for the CEOs of other auto manufacturers.

On a related note, whatever came of the Ford transmission problem? Anyone recall how Ford transmissions could be bumped into neutral from park without the engine running? Ford (and other manufacturers) used that same transmission for years and apparently knew about the problem for years, but it didn't even come out until about what... twenty years ago? I know both of my Father's F-150s used that transmission. I know my brother and my dogs would knock the transmission into neutral. We always had to put blocks to ensure the Fords didn't roll away. I don't even recall if Ford ever went before Congress for that one. Ford eventually modified their transmissions, but not before thousands, if not millions, of those transmissions entered the market.

So yeah, I'm not keen on this problem. This is just the tip of the barrel. If the market and consumer tendencies are any indication, this is not going to be the last or most severe problem we'll encounter. Should Toyota take responsibility, yes and they are. Will that stop me from buying another Toyota? Heh, wanna sell me your defective Toyota?

[Hoopz]

I've got a 2003 Windstar that's had some issues including transmission problems.  I've owned Fords, Chevy, Honda etc.  They've all had issues albeit some more expensive or bigger than others.

My only comment about the current situation is that it took the leader having a problem to boost Ford, Chevy and Chrysler sales.  That's not indicative of the product that the Big 3 makes though.  People don't want to buy a problem vehicle so they have a few other options.  Naturally, those companies are going to see higher sales as should Kia, Honda, etc.

I do think one thing is telling though.  During the fall, Ford was quite visible during NFL games with their commercials.  I thought it was interesting that their selling points were all cosmetic...literally.  It wasn't about quality then.  They were selling cars based on stuff like:

1. Interior LED lights that could change colors.
2. Gas caps or something that wouldnt get gas on me
3. IIRC a stereo system or interface like the Chrysler MyGig (or something akin to that).

None of those things made me want to buy another Ford.  None of those things would make me want to buy ANY car.  I think most middle class Americans want to buy cars based on value/quality.  You can't have the best quality for the least amount of money so it has to be quality value.  I'm not sure the Big 3 get that yet.

Toyota should have addressed this differently but in a year (six months?) will this still have an impact on their sales?  I doubt it. 

[javeryh]

I drive a 2009 Rav4 Sport - 6 cylinders.  I love it.  Luckily, my car was not recalled.  I don't think the recall will have any effect as to whether I buy Toyota again.

[TOK]

There is not any car I've ever heard of that can't be put in park while its moving. They have a prawl that keeps the transmission from being damaged. Makes a hell of a racket though. Certainly every car can be put in neutral.

Car & Driver did a test in the last issue and every car they tested, including a 400+ HP Roush Mustang could be stopped at full throttle by putting on the brakes. Nissan/Infinity cars already have the gas over-ride the government is mandating. The G35 or whatever it was they tested stopped in pretty much the same distance full throttle or not.

My opinion on this is that its possibly something wrong with the drive by wire system, but is only compounded by absolutely idiotic driver error. If you have to to make phone calls and have a discussion about the problem, but don't have the foresight to throw the car out of gear, even if it means bouncing it off the rev limiter until it blows up, you shouldn't have a license to begin with.

People are now piling on to Toyotas problem, including a guy that slammed into a stopped car going 90 mph and was found negligent... The Toyota he was driving didn't even have the drive by wire setup that is common in all the other cases.

[Fordman]

There is not any car I've ever heard of that can't be put in park while its moving. They have a prawl that keeps the transmission from being damaged. Makes a hell of a racket though. Certainly every car can be put in neutral.

Most cars made today are software controlled in the valve body keeping the transmission from going into park when at speeds above 3mph. This saves the hardware in the gearbox. Yes, it should have been able to go into neutral but something else was wrong preventing it from going into neutral. I dont know their software, but it should be industry standard that lets it go into neutral. Even though you put it into park at speeds above 3mph, the valve body reads the rpm - speed and then prevents the clutch shifting into park. That software controls the transmission more so than the shifter.

Fordman

[ark_ader]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

Well that kinda hits a sore spot mate - while yes I am an American I also reside in the UK. - I also had a Daewoo in the US.  Then I found out Daewoo went bankrupt 6 months after I bought it.  Also the extended warranty was not covered by Daewoo.  So I fully understand that problem.  I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.  Not Korean, Japanese or Chinese crappy made cars.  Just don't get me started on Honda.  While I'm on about cars - the UK make crap cars too. 

[Ginsu Victim]

I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.

Something run by the government can never be called "quality"

[AtomSmasher]

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/dansk-port-teknik-garage-door-ad/full/

[Silas (son of Silas)]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

Well that kinda hits a sore spot mate - while yes I am an American I also reside in the UK. - I also had a Daewoo in the US.  Then I found out Daewoo went bankrupt 6 months after I bought it.  Also the extended warranty was not covered by Daewoo.  So I fully understand that problem.  I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.  Not Korean, Japanese or Chinese crappy made cars.  Just don't get me started on Honda.  While I'm on about cars - the UK make crap cars too. 

Oops.. sorry, No offense intended. My comment comes from the fact that Americans get Camaros, Corvettes and the like and we get lumbered with the bloody Matisse.

As far as British cars go... We don't really make cars anymore do we? Jag's are Indian (formerly American), Rollers and Bentleys are German etc etc.

[TOK]

There is not any car I've ever heard of that can't be put in park while its moving. They have a prawl that keeps the transmission from being damaged. Makes a hell of a racket though. Certainly every car can be put in neutral.

Most cars made today are software controlled in the valve body keeping the transmission from going into park when at speeds above 3mph. This saves the hardware in the gearbox. Yes, it should have been able to go into neutral but something else was wrong preventing it from going into neutral. I dont know their software, but it should be industry standard that lets it go into neutral. Even though you put it into park at speeds above 3mph, the valve body reads the rpm - speed and then prevents the clutch shifting into park. That software controls the transmission more so than the shifter.

Fordman

Did not know this, thanks. I agree that Reverse and Park should be read as Neutral by the transmission.
I have one truck with an electronically controlled trans, but jamming it in park while moving is not an experiment I want to try!

[Fordman]

Ive been making transmissions and parts for many years and for the last 2-3 years just really learning what it was I was making and how/why they are made that way. I really didnt pay attention to what/why a differential was for or how they worked until someone posted a video here on BYOAC a month or so ago.

As for those that has Ford transmission problems, years ago in the Explorer's and F-150's Ford sold more vehicles than it could make transmissions for, so they outsourced the trans to Getrag (borg-warner) (made in mexico) and ZF (german company but made in USA). Also, Aisin (toyota) is another outsourced trans that Ford has used in the past. We was getting alot of problems with the Getrag's so they just made the internals, Ford actually assembled them in Livinonia, Michigan.
The trans problems were the clutch packs were wearing to quickly from bad clutch disks and bad park prawls/rooster combs. Ford had to inspect them one by one before assembly. BTW every part we get from mexico gets inspected at least 2 times, from china - at least 4 times. Mexico's parts have a 20% defect return as china's is around 80 percent. Some how, some way, they make money by sending us junk.

Ford execs where dragged into Congress to explain the Explorer roll over and tire problems in the 90's. It was all over the news but we wasnt as hyper sensative the way we are today. The tire problem was 100% linked to Firestone tires made with carbon black at a plant in Illinois, USA with scab labor as they were having a labor dispute at the time. Bridgestone was bought out by a jap company with a succesorship clause and the new owners thought they would ignore it and fire everyone. Well, they payed alot of cash for that mistake! Notice how Firestone quietly dropped the name and just use their parent name: Bridgestone?

Fordman

[Ginsu Victim]

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/dansk-port-teknik-garage-door-ad/full/

That's great!

[Ginsu Victim]

http://www.firestone.com/

[Vanguard]

I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.  

Your S10 is real LATIN America Quality (depending on year it was built):

Chevy Vehicles made in Latin America

Cars     Spark Celta/Prisma Corsa B/Chevy C2 Corsa C Aveo Optra Astra B Astra C/Vectra Vectra C
Trucks  Montana/Tornado S-10 D-Max Silverado Avalanche  Crossovers HHR Captiva Captiva Sport Traverse  
MPVs    Meriva Tacuma/Rezzo Zafira    

[Malenko]

I lvoe my tC. I used to stick strictly with US MADE cars ( like the 2 Mitsubishi Eclipses I owned, btoh made in illinois) but now I bought what I like and what fits me. I think toyota has done the right thing to try and fix the wrong, my Scion dealer even called me today to reaffrim that the tC I bought wasnt part of the recall and to call back if I had any questions.

[missioncontrol]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

[CCM]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

Really?  I thought that the Explorer was one of the best selling SUV's of all time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer#Yearly_American_sales

[missioncontrol]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

Really?  I thought that the Explorer was one of the best selling SUV's of all time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer#Yearly_American_sales

yeah and everyone I know who has had one has had transmission issues with theirs and yet my Bronco still runs strong.

[CCM]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

Really?  I thought that the Explorer was one of the best selling SUV's of all time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer#Yearly_American_sales

yeah and everyone I know who has had one has had transmission issues with theirs and yet my Bronco still runs strong.

That may well be, but Ford still sold a boat load of them.   I had a 1991 Explorer Sport, it ran like a champ until I traded it in, in 1999. 

edit:  I did have some alternator issues, but the transmission was solid...

[saint]

Between 3 Ford Taurus models and 1 Windstar in the family, we've had to replace... 4 transmissions. Love my Fords otherwise, but I'd be hard pressed to own another. Oldest was a 1989 model I believe, newest was a 2003.

[hypernova]

My wife was partial to Dodges, until I asked her "what about all the problem you keep having?"

I've had a Nissan Pulsar, Geo Tracker, and now a Chevy Cavalier, all good vehicles to me.  The 2 Stratuses we've had seem to always need somthing each year or two.

[Ginsu Victim]

My wife was partial to Dodges, until I asked her "what about all the problem you keep having?"

Tell me about it. My wife and I both had Dodges (she had a '93 Shadow, I had a '99 Neon) and we had trouble constantly (electrical mainly on hers, but I had oil leak problems, timing issues, etc), not to mention the paint started peeling off both of them.

Now we share an '08 Honda CR-V and love it. No problems so far.

[saint]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

[Ginsu Victim]

Hell yeah, Honda is awesome.

[boykster]

I currently own 2 Toyota (lexus) vehicles, and I love them both.  My 2000 RX300 is a super solid vehicle, and my 2006 IS sedan is a kick in the ass to drive.  The build quality on the 2000 RX is definately better than the newer sedan though, so I agree that at least on the Lexus line they've put volume over quality.  My 10 year old SUV has minimal rattles, but my newer sedan developed a dash rattle after 6 months.  Sure, Lexus stood behind the car and fixed the problem under warranty and provided me a comparable loaner car for the duration of the service.

I agree with the sentiment that this is Toyota's moment under the microscope.  Ford recovered from the Explorer tire issue, Toyota will survive this too.

[Fordman]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

Wow, you got Honda to cover it out of warranty? How did you happen to manage that? Honda is the industry leading fighter of warranty claims. Honda is kinda like Sony when it comes to their products. They believe that they are so good that they dont have to quality check them as they come off the line. Honda is a good vehicle and they also have issues just like any other company. They fight warranty claims tooth and nail and usually and dont care if they loose your future business because they belive that 10 more people will walk in to the showroom right behind you. That has been their business model for years. We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

[Vanguard]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warranty.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

I had the same thing happen except my Odyssey was 2 years out of warranty.

The only thing that pissed me off about this is that Honda denied there was a problem when a simple search on the internet turned up tons of information that it was a know problem.

Honda did replace the transmission 100% free but I would have liked them to be honest about there being a problem.

BTW Saint, I still have the Odyssey and just had service done on it.   I told them the dealer that they had replaced the transmission 18,000 miles ago and asked them if I should do anything special like change the transmission oil more frequently.  The service person said, "no, it looks like they replaced the computer at the same time they replaced the transmission.  The computer was the root of the transmission problem".   That was the first time I'd heard Honda even come close to an admitting there was a problem.

Regardless, because they did the right thing, when we replace the Odyssey, it will be with another Honda.

[Vanguard]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

Wow, you got Honda to cover it out of warranty? How did you happen to manage that? Honda is the industry leading fighter of warranty claims. Honda is kinda like Sony when it comes to their products. They believe that they are so good that they don't have to quality check them as they come off the line. Honda is a good vehicle and they also have issues just like any other company. They fight warranty claims tooth and nail and usually and dont care if they loose your future business because they belive that 10 more people will walk in to the showroom right behind you. That has been their business model for years. We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

I've owned 4 Honda's and never had any issue with warranty claims.  Not one.   With my Odyssey, I just took it to the dealer and told them the transmission was slipping and failing to shift into second sometimes.   I told them I knew it was a reported problem and that I'd like them to cover it out of warranty.   The dealer said, "well have to contact Honda".   They did and Honda said yes.   I think in this case, they knew there was a problem with the design and they took responsibility for it.

I've never had a single problem with any of my Honda's that was an assembly line issue.   The vehicles have always been put together very well.   The only warranty stuff I've ever had (other than the transmission) has been minor stuff like a radio going bad or a dash light going out.   Those were covered without argument.   My Dodge was a completely different story.   There were design flaws all over the place, poorly assembled, poorly serviced and every problem out of warranty was denied coverage.   Even problems that had happened multiple times with the same part under warranty.

[saint]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

Wow, you got Honda to cover it out of warranty? How did you happen to manage that? Honda is the industry leading fighter of warranty claims. Honda is kinda like Sony when it comes to their products. They believe that they are so good that they dont have to quality check them as they come off the line. Honda is a good vehicle and they also have issues just like any other company. They fight warranty claims tooth and nail and usually and dont care if they loose your future business because they belive that 10 more people will walk in to the showroom right behind you. That has been their business model for years. We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

I didn't do a thing - they just told me they'd cover it without my asking.  Ford has treated me like dirt when I've needed work. Dunno.

[TOK]

So, tell me if I'm reading this thread wrong but... 

You guys had fundamental things go wrong with your cars, things that shouldn't have, but because the company fixed it, you'll buy another one?

 

Ever hear that thing about the true measure of a company being not how they treat you when things go right, but what they do when things go wrong?

Its always better for things not to fail (Saint seems hard on transmissions!  ), but you have to respect Honda for standing behind their product, even when they were no longer obligated.

[saint]

So, tell me if I'm reading this thread wrong but... 

You guys had fundamental things go wrong with your cars, things that shouldn't have, but because the company fixed it, you'll buy another one?

 

What TOK said. You've never had a car repair?

[HaRuMaN]

All car companies are going to have something fundamental fail in their vehicles, it's inevitable.  It's what they do afterward that's important.

[Vanguard]

Before I would buy another Honda, I would do a quick search for known issues with the model/year vehicle.   If there were known problems, then I'd either buy a different brand or same brand but different vehicle.    I would not buy a Honda with a known defect.

These types of fundamental flaws tend to happen when a particular badge (Odyssey in this case) is redesigned/refreshed.   I've always heard not to buy a new model vehicle the first year it comes out.   Honda seems to redesign models every 3-5 years and most of the kinks get worked out in the first year.   That is what the warranty is for.  Unfortunately sometimes, problems are such that they don't arise until after the warranty period and so far Honda has been very accommodating with these issues.

We had an Accord at one time and got a letter from Honda stating that some people are having transmission problems when shifting from reverse to forward without coming to a complete stop (which sounds like a bad idea to me).   Honda said due to these problem, they were extending our transmission warranty and additional 10 YEARS!!!

I never once had a problem with the transmission in that vehicle so it never effected me.   The fact that they did it though was very comforting.

I could just as easily buy any other brand and run into these same issues.   The one thing I do know is that if it were an American brand and I was out of warranty, I'd be footing the bill.

[Fordman]

We had an Accord at one time and got a letter from Honda stating that some people are having transmission problems when shifting from reverse to forward without coming to a complete stop (which sounds like a bad idea to me).   Honda said due to these problem, they were extending our transmission warranty and additional 10 YEARS!!!

Sounds like Honda did the right thing then rather than face a public relations nightmare. They have have gotten so many complaints that instead of issuing a recall or brand wide fix, they fixed them voluntarily on a case by case basis. I just wonder how many people had their Oddysey's fixed at a third party shop and didnt know about the free fix they were giving away? Also it goes back to software not letting the valvebody switch the gears. You cant just throw a post 1998 transmission into park at full speed anymore (give it a try if you want to, but I wouldnt recommend it). Although it shouldnt shift into park or reverse at a speed above 3mph software at that time wasnt as good as it is now and was still relativly new to the industry.

Now the old transmissions, you throw that baby into reverse at 100mph, guess where that trans will be? Probably all over the ground and up into the drivers seat next to you!

Fordman

[HaRuMaN]

 

[Vanguard]

We had an Accord at one time and got a letter from Honda stating that some people are having transmission problems when shifting from reverse to forward without coming to a complete stop (which sounds like a bad idea to me).   Honda said due to these problem, they were extending our transmission warranty and additional 10 YEARS!!!

Sounds like Honda did the right thing then rather than face a public relations nightmare. They have have gotten so many complaints that instead of issuing a recall or brand wide fix, they fixed them voluntarily on a case by case basis. I just wonder how many people had their Oddysey's fixed at a third party shop and didnt know about the free fix they were giving away? Also it goes back to software not letting the valvebody switch the gears. You cant just throw a post 1998 transmission into park at full speed anymore (give it a try if you want to, but I wouldnt recommend it). Although it shouldnt shift into park or reverse at a speed above 3mph software at that time wasnt as good as it is now and was still relativly new to the industry.

Now the old transmissions, you throw that baby into reverse at 100mph, guess where that trans will be? Probably all over the ground and up into the drivers seat next to you!

Fordman

The shifting from reverse to forward was a problem with the Accord.  There actually was a recall for the Odyssey transmission.   The Odyssey transmission had a different issue with the 2nd gear breaking down and clogging up the oil lines and thus starving the transmission for cooling.   Honda initially did a recall and added a second cooling jet that sprayed oil directly on the gear that was breaking down.

Here is the recall: http://world.honda.com/news/2004/printerfriendly/4040414.html

We had the recall done but several years later, the transmission still failed (2 years out of warranty).   That's when Honda stepped up and took care of us.

[Hoopz]

+1

[hypernova]

We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

They might have been just a hair biased or even disgruntled towards their former employer.

[protokatie]

Just great, so now we cant toggle between F and R above 3 Mph? I live in MAINE! It IS REQUIRED that you toggle between F and R at about 20 mph!

I guess I will stick to my manual transmissions, thank you... (And laugh at all those people who have a drive wheel stuck in a slippery mud/ice hole as they call for a tow truck)

[northerngames]

goofy things happen all the time in the auto's I just expect ford gm and chrystler to be treated like dirt also when toyota point's some of their flaws out.

we needed to do/find something they were killing us in sales right?

I dont recall this big of a fuss over them suv's and tires a few years back that were blowing out and rolling and also there were suv's that were losing there steering and going off the road rolling etc. my buddy had a blow out on his and rolled it and he fell on his dad's side and broke 1-2 of his ribs from the impact there were many more accidents with them then what there harping on toyota for by a long shot.

they treated that like it was no big deal and off the news and tv within a week.

I don't care for toyota and never have really so I am not trying to stick up for them I just think there being a little tuff on them to make there sales plumit while we get back in action becuase we certianly did not treat ourselve's like that when our auto's go goofy if anything it is hush hush like they tried to do and some of the time's the dealers offer a cash/deduction bribe instead of fixing the damn thing like dodge gave someone I know they were offered a buy out for around 10K off there new veicle becuase it was a lemon due to the transmission going every other week and the could not fix it were it worked like it was supposed to.

[TOK]

Read up on Chevy pickup sidesaddle fuel tanks and Ford Ignitions if you think Japan is being treated unfavorably because "they were beating us in sales". The show 20/20 actually rigged a Chevy to blow up when they couldn't reproduce the claimed results of the fuel tank problem.

Toyota screwed this up themselves. They've apparently known about it for a while, and when it became public they tried blaming it on floor mats instead of addressing the real issue.

[northerngames]

Exactly I never knew of heard of that until you just mentioned it to me.

I have heard all about toyota lately though 

[Howard_Casto]

I think that people are letting toyota get off a little to easily.  It isn't the fact that they had a problem with the cars, every car has bugs and flaws that reveal themselves over time.  The problem is they knew about the problem(s) for YEARS and rather than fixing them, they decided to cover it up and us their hefty corporate might to ban the safety commissions from even investigating the problem.  These aren't minor issues like we've seen in the past on recalls either... not being able to stop your car is a BIG ---smurfin--- DEAL!

The people who have responded with things like "Well they admitted the cars had a problem and are handling the recall nicely so I'll keep buying from them." Are living in a DREAM WORLD.  They did NOT admit they had a problem until it became so public and so many people had been injured and/or LOST THEIR LIVES that they were forced to.  Even then, they didn't take any real action until every news broadcast in the US hammered them daily about how their "fixes" weren't working. Even now the proposed fixes are laughable.

Since this seems to be confusing some, let me put it in gamer terms. 

When the wii was first released there were rumors (turned out to be just that) of people getting injured from their wrist strap breaking on their wiimotes and getting hit with flying controllers.  Nintendo IMMEDIATELY issued a recall promotion and improved the strap sending it out to every registered wii user for free. Keep in mind they didn't have to as no real injuries had ever been reported, but they did it anyway beacuse they were making a ton of money off the wii and felt morally responsible for their failure.  They went on to release yet another strap revision and now all wiimotes come packed with an optional gel cover.  Keep in mind nobody ever got hurt, but they did all of this because they were worried somebody MIGHT get hurt.  This, friends, is a responsible business model.

Now think of the xbox 360.  The damn thing had issues since day 1 and yet it took M$ nearly three YEARS to even admit there was a problem.  Even now they have no real solution to the problem and the flaw apparently still exists and their "solution" is to extend the warranty an additional year, which is crap because most people keep a game console for 5 years or more.  This is what toyota did guys.  Basically they pretended the problem didn't exist for years and when they were found out only offered a non-solution that doesn't really address the core issue.

Now keep in mind I own both a wii and 360, but hey, a dead 360 won't kill me.  A runaway car on the other hand just might.

I own a chevy, mom owns a pontiac, grandma owns a ford.  We support these brands beacause it helps our nations economy and in our opinion they offer a superior product, despite the fact that they don't come with as many bells and whistles.  Perhaps you should all consider buying american and seeing what a REAL car is like. 

With that being said, if the US auto industry doesn't wise up and start offering full on electric cars, I might have to change that policy.  Oil is an irresponsible fuel source at this point and the only way to develop better technology is to get the alternatives out to market NOW... thus driving down the cost this new tech. 

People always have the argument "the tech isn't ready yet"  and they are right.  But it isn't ready because we haven't sold it.  When the ipod first came out a solid state mp3 player was 400 bucks minimum.  10 years later you can pick up a cheap one for under 20 bucks.  Nothing has really changed except for the fact that demand for the product became so great that streamlined production naturally occured and thus the price of components went down. 

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

[TOK]

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

There are no American cars, only American car companies. All of them build cars in Mexico and Canada. Chevy slaps their name on Daewoo's (Aveo) and most of their mainstream cars use a platform developed by Opal. Google Epsilon and Delta platforms if you want enlightenment.

Toyota and GM share an assembly plant in Freemont CA.
Nissan has a huge factory in Mississippi.

What is more American, a Nissan built by Americans or a Chevy built by $3 per hour Mexicans?

To put it in gamer terms for you, your XBox might be from Microsoft, but its made in China.

[AtomSmasher]

Just got around to reading the second page of this thread and thought I'd mention that about 4 months ago Saturn (a GM company) did an out of warranty repair on my car as if it was still under warranty.  It wasn't as major as a new transmission, but I was still very grateful to not have to pay to get the repair done.  Also, they obviously weren't looking to do me a favor in the hopes that I would be a repeat customer since Saturn had already announced that all their dealerships would be closing down.

[hyiu]

......beacuse they were making a ton of money off the wii and felt morally responsible for their failure.  They went on to release yet another strap revision and now all wiimotes come packed with an optional gel cover.  Keep in mind nobody ever got hurt, but they did all of this because they were worried somebody MIGHT get hurt.  This, friends, is a responsible business model.

...
I own a chevy, mom owns a pontiac, grandma owns a ford.  We support these brands beacause it helps our nations economy and in our opinion they offer a superior product, despite the fact that they don't come with as many bells and whistles.  Perhaps you should all consider buying american and seeing what a REAL car is like. 


People always have the argument "the tech isn't ready yet"  and they are right.  But it isn't ready because we haven't sold it.  When the ipod first came out a solid state mp3 player was 400 bucks minimum.  10 years later you can pick up a cheap one for under 20 bucks.  Nothing has really changed except for the fact that demand for the product became so great that streamlined production naturally occured and thus the price of components went down. 

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

hmmm.... morally responsible for their failure ??
is it really that ?  How do you know ?
Or maybe its good for their future business ??

given that maybe.... just maybe... noone is really hurt from a fly away wiimote...
but we have seen videos on broken LCD screens that caused by fly away wiimote...

I'm no lawyer, but if Nintendo does not fix that quick, I'm smelling lawsuit and property damage with a defective product...

yes, its good that Nintendo fixes its problem... but put it as MORALLY RESPONSIBLE ?
I think that is pushing it.

I think Nintendo, is just like most other company, is looking for profit, maybe a smarter company that will willing to spend a little of its profit margin for longer term profit and minimize potential lawsuits.


----

On another note,

I used to own a Pontiac, then Acura, then Lexus.

I learned how to fix car with the Pontiac.  It gives me so much problem.  leaking motor oil, steering fluid, transmission fluid... (at that time, I didn't even know there were so freaking many different kind of oils in a car...) alternator problem, over heat problem. died on me on the road multi times.

Acura and Lexus, on the other hand, are better built, better quality products...
(purely based on my personal experiences.)

I will not go to American brands.... until they can come out with something that ican beat competition hands down, and so far, I don't see any sign of it.

---------

and as others have said... American cars might not be build in US, while Jap cars are no longer coming from Japan.  I believe cars like Accord, and Camry are now made in US, but I'm no expert. 

My lexus is made in Canada, not exactly Jap made.

---------

As for elecrtic / hybird cars, when owning one cost less then a normal car over the lifetime of a car, tthen I'll buy.

According to what I read... again limited personal opinion,  Pirus is the only one that will come out ahead.  also, maintainence and resell value suffers.

Keep in mind, car is no MP3 players.
the BIGGEST 2 purchases in your life will probably be house, and car.

While I might buy a Tube power amp for $3000 and "take a gamble"...

when it comes to a car which I'm stuck for probably 5+yrs and $30+k,
I would rather be safe than sorry...

So, comparing mp3 players, ipod, and electric / hybird cars is not a good example.

[FrizzleFried]

We have the Lexus (fancy Camry) that went out of control for 6 miles at speeds of over 100mph in Tennesee, USA that we all heard about on tv from the owner.

This happened in SANTEE, CALIFORNIA not Tennesee... I used to live about a mile from the "end of freeway" that those poor folks came down and hit the barrier.

(EDIT: Not sure if you're talking about the same incident.... the situation in Santee ended with a family dying and the driver was a guy who was a Highway Patrolman...)

 

[CheffoJeffo]

But I'm rambling....

Long story short........ Toyota Bad!  American Cars Good!

There are no American cars, only American car companies. All of them build cars in Mexico and Canada. Chevy slaps their name on Daewoo's (Aveo) and most of their mainstream cars use a platform developed by Opal. Google Epsilon and Delta platforms if you want enlightenment.

Toyota and GM share an assembly plant in Freemont CA.
Nissan has a huge factory in Mississippi.

What is more American, a Nissan built by Americans or a Chevy built by $3 per hour Mexicans?

+1

Between me, my family and my in-laws, we have owned nearly a dozen Ford vehicles ... not a one built in the USA. All the evil jap cars ... built in the USA.

[Fordman]

We have the Lexus (fancy Camry) that went out of control for 6 miles at speeds of over 100mph in Tennesee, USA that we all heard about on tv from the owner.

This happened in SANTEE, CALIFORNIA not Tennesee... I used to live about a mile from the "end of freeway" that those poor folks came down and hit the barrier.

(EDIT: Not sure if you're talking about the same incident.... the situation in Santee ended with a family dying and the driver was a guy who was a Highway Patrolman...)

Separate incident from the Patrolman and his family. The one in Tennesee is where the lady had one stick one her for 6 miles at speeds of 100mph and then she claims 'God intervened' and stopped the car.

Fordman

[Dartful Dodger]

Ever hear that thing about the true measure of a company being not how they treat you when things go right, but what they do when things go wrong?

I agree with pinballjim.  My first car was a Chevy and for most of my life I've owned Chevy's and I haven't had any major problems with them.

I bought a Dodge that goes through bearings like candy.

I'd rather buy a car that doesn't need any major repairs from a company that doesn't care about public relations than a POS from a company that gives me a doughnut and cup of coffee every time I have to bring the car in for repair.

Although the whole government running Chevy scares me, so my next car will be a Ford.  If they don't work out I'll go back to Chevy.

[CheffoJeffo]

HONEST QUESTION (really!): Are there readily available stats as to "who builds what car ?" in a format that most of us can understand ?

I am genuinely tired of folks saying "Buy American" (meaning Big 3), thinking it supports American workers, and then having to say "I've owned a shitload of Fords and none of them were built in the USA". My experience is, obviously, anecdotal and there are going to be people who tell you to buy "American" because the workers are unionized and protected (which is an already-polarized statement that can be addressed in P&R), but many of the cars from those brands are actually build in dirty, dirty places like China, Messico or Canuckistan.

To me, supporting local workers, means buying products that are made by local workers.

I could give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- who gets the remaining profits, if any (apologies to all of those who own stock in the Big 3, but there are a lot of people who should apologize to you before I do!)

It would be nice, for a change, to see how many local, or near-neighbour, workers were supported by my purchase of Vehicle A.

Then *I* can add that to my acquisition decision, as opposed to blindly saying "I buy X because it supports Y", without the first freaking clue as to whether it supports anything at all.

I would be really happy if somebody would actually present things honestly instead of people just wrapping themselves in company colours and pretending that they are wearing flags.

 

[Vanguard]

To me, supporting local workers, means buying products that are made by local workers.

Exactly.   Who cares if the profits go to a US company when all they do with those profits is create more jobs in Canada and Mexico?

I've owned 4 Honda's all built in the U.S.   Only one that ever had a major issue (transmission) was replaced free of charge 2 years out of warranty.

Only "American" car I've owned was built in Mexico and was the biggest piece of crap ever made.   Chrysler didn't stand behind the product and their service center broke it worse more often than they fixed it.   The vehicle only had 25,000 miles on it after 7 years.   I'd hate to see what it would have been like if I drove it more.  I dump $3500.00 into the piece of junk just so I could turn around a sell it for $5500.  

Two out of my four Honda's lasted more than 10 years and had over 150,000 miles on them.  Not once did they ever have anything more than a regular service.  My current Honda has 78,000 on it and there is nothing at all wrong with it.   I expect to easily have it for another 5-7 years.   Our family will probably outgrow the need for it before it dies.  The only Honda we had less than 10 years was one that we replaced early due to kids and a need for more room.

I'll stick with my American made Honda's.   Honda has quality, stands behind the product,  employs Americans and they have good coffee, donuts and a loaner vehicle when I drop my car off for an oil change.  

[Epyx]

Now we share an '08 Honda CR-V and love it. No problems so far.

+1 never a problem. My wife is now driving our old 2001 civic...only ever done oil changes, breaks once and coming up on timing belt.

[Fordman]

my Ford F-150 was 60/40 USA / Mexico.

I'll guarantee you the F-150 body, bed, engine, transmission, seats, dash and components, frame, tires, battery & windows were all made in the USA. The wire looms, harneses, lights, head light, tail lights, bumper, interior trim, seat belts, center console (if you have one), carpet, head liner, outer mirrors, rear view mirror, and wheels were either made in mexico or Canada.

Fordman

[northerngames]

my Ford F-150 was 60/40 USA / Mexico.

I'll guarantee you the F-150 body, bed, engine, transmission, seats, dash and components, frame, tires, battery & windows were all made in the USA. The wire looms, harneses, lights, head light, tail lights, bumper, interior trim, seat belts, center console (if you have one), carpet, head liner, outer mirrors, rear view mirror, and wheels were either made in mexico or Canada.

Fordman

it would also be nice to find out where the actual materials themselve's come from to start each and should be accounted for also like the rubber metal oil grease piant mold plastic wire etc. and perhaps the machine's that make each of them parts too.

[Ed_McCarron]

my Ford F-150 was 60/40 USA / Mexico.

I'll guarantee you the F-150 body, bed, engine, transmission, seats, dash and components, frame, tires, battery & windows were all made in the USA. The wire looms, harneses, lights, head light, tail lights, bumper, interior trim, seat belts, center console (if you have one), carpet, head liner, outer mirrors, rear view mirror, and wheels were either made in mexico or Canada.

Fordman

it would also be nice to find out where the actual materials themselve's come from to start each and should be accounted for also like the rubber metal oil grease piant mold plastic wire etc. and perhaps the machine's that make each of them parts too.

Whats next?  Where the air in the tires is from?

I look at a car.  I look at its track record.  I look at its price.  Do I really care where its built?

[shateredsoul]

If they admitted the issue from the beginning I would be more willing to trust Toyota, but even the early reports seemed fishy.  An issue with the floor mats? Human error? pedal issues? Yeah right..

For every news article (online) I always read the comments, there were many people commenting about still having issues after taking the floor mats out etc.

I will probably never buy Toyota again,  If they had admitted the issue from the beginning and accepted their mistakes, I would be willing to go back to them.  But now I know that if there's a future issue with their cars, they'll react this way and claim it's only a minor issue and it will easily get fixed.  Tell that to the families who have had their car rear-end other card, run into intersections, run through their garage, or kill who have been killed because of this issue with their cars.

If I sold someone something that killed them (not due to their own mistakes), I bet i'd be in jail right now.

As for Fords, in general my family has had good experiences with Ford Trucks... my Father in law had really bad luck with a Ford Ranger from 2001.  Handles and pieces literally pulled off that truck like no other (the back door to the bed just came off once). I've heard good things about newer Fords.

[danny_galaga]

Hello All,

Several pundits on tv have questioned why she just didnt throw it into neutral, park or reverse.
I think that wouldnt have helped anyway. The transmissions are programmed to not go into a reverse or park when at speeds above 3mph. this is done to save the hardware within the gearbox. The valve body control module wouldnt let it go into the neutral or park mode as programmed - designed. But it should have been allowed to go into neutral and then while in neutral, the rpm's of the engine should rev down to 'idle' rpm's. The error is the not allowing the transmission to go into neutral. I think Toyota's issue is a software issue and not a hardware one. This little 1" x 1" piece of metal being added to the pedal I think is a "I can see the fix, so I know they fixed it" kinda feel good fix for people. I work with engineers all the time and they will tell you alot of issues are now electronics and the software within them and no so much a mecanical part.

This sort of issue has been cropping up for the last 20 years in aircraft, alarmingly. That is to say, there is a huge advantage to automating more and more processes. But sometimes there will be a scenario that no one had envisaged. A scenario where if the process was totally manual, the pilot could make a command decision and use his imagination. Probably one of the first instances where an automated system couldn't cope with an unusual variable was one of the Apollo missions. While on the ground, there was a small fire in the capsule. Most likely completely survivable, except that as the fire burned, it of course was depleting oxygen. The oxygen sensor detected the drop in levels and increased the level. The result was disaster. More famously, Airbus have had some freaky incidences with fly by wire tech because the situation while unusual was quite clear to a human, but not to the computer.

The new Toyota CEO came out about these probs before the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- really started to hit the fan, which was interesting. (edit: maybe not now i think about it. In Australia, it seemed the case because we didn't have as many sensational incidents as in the US. Maybe those models didn't come here or something)

Fordman, what you say about being able to go into neutral, is that what they are supposed to do, or is this your thoughts? Seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do. Very easy to program for too.

I'll stick to my 39 year old VW for now. The only thing electronic in it is the stereo, and that's broken  

[danny_galaga]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

Hey, i used to own a Daewoo Matiz, and it was an awesome little car! Seemed like it was only running on 3 cylinders though 

[danny_galaga]

it would also be nice to find out where the actual materials themselve's come from to start each and should be accounted for also like the rubber metal oil grease piant mold plastic wire etc. and perhaps the machine's that make each of them parts too.

Most of the iron, and coal to smelt it into steel, probably comes from here. Thats for any car in the world. SO for us Aussies, we don't care WHAT car you buy, we still export the same amount 

[Cakemeister]

One thing is for certain. The lawyers will get paid.

[Fordman]

I agree, the lawyers will get 80% of any settlement! 

As for the question for the transmission not going into neutral, they should go into neutral by design, whether it be software or manually placed into neutral. The neutral position is considered the total 'dis-engagement' point. Automatic transmissions have an auto clutch system that when placed into neutral ,the clutch should totally disengage the gear sets. A manual trans is controlled by the driver at all times, the auto trans is software controlled by the valve body. If the software is bad, it wont let the clutch disengage, also it could have been programmed once it gets to a certain gear ratio - rpm - it could bump up the speed, that is where it could be telling the fuel intake that it needs a little more kick to shift again or into overdrive.

A little disclaimer here: I have worked for many years with many types of transmissions. Im no expert on them all. I have worked with 3 speeds, CVT's, 4 speeds with or without overdrives, 5 speed truck trans, 6 speen FWD - AWD trans and many many internal components. I was a 'lab-tech' for 5 years. I placed randomly chosen trans from the assembly line onto test stands in a simulated drive machine. The drive machine basically 'drove' the trans in many different driving situations, from stop to 60mph to stop within 45 seconds to a simulated 2500 mile drive in a 24 hours period at various mph to whole time on the test stand. I'm not a repairman, but a somewhat knowledgable factory worker.

Disclaimer 2: The Ford Escape Hybrid drive system is a Toyota engine/trans/battery pack. The Escape hybrid drive system was so similarly designed, For went ahead and decided to pay toyota for their technology rather than produce it. Ford was worried about lawsuits from toyota.

Fordman