The Whole Toyota Debacle.......Your Thoughts.

[Fordman]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

On the Toyota issue, 8.5 million recalled cars-trucks world wide due to different reasons (brakes-sudden acceleration-rusting frames).

We have the Lexus (fancy Camry) that went out of control for 6 miles at speeds of over 100mph in Tennesee, USA that we all heard about on tv from the owner.
Several pundits on tv have questioned why she just didnt throw it into neutral, park or reverse.
I think that wouldnt have helped anyway. The transmissions are programmed to not go into a reverse or park when at speeds above 3mph. this is done to save the hardware within the gearbox. The valve body control module wouldnt let it go into the neutral or park mode as programmed - designed. But it should have been allowed to go into neutral and then while in neutral, the rpm's of the engine should rev down to 'idle' rpm's. The error is the not allowing the transmission to go into neutral. I think Toyota's issue is a software issue and not a hardware one. This little 1" x 1" piece of metal being added to the pedal I think is a "I can see the fix, so I know they fixed it" kinda feel good fix for people. I work with engineers all the time and they will tell you alot of issues are now electronics and the software within them and no so much a mecanical part.

I dont have any thoughts about the Prius brake issue as I havent followed up on that one yet.

As for the rusty frames - rusty hangers, the spare tires falling off the Tundra's, the metals used on the frames and tire hangers where made by AK Steel in Ohio. The date for the manufacturing of the frames and hangers are the same as when the AK Steel plant had a worker strike, so there may be a quality issue with the steel from that plant.

Those are just my thoughts, Yours

Fordman

[Vanguard]

I really don't see what the big deal is.   I couldn't believe the government dragged Toyota before congress to explain how they dropped the ball.  U.S. automakers have been doing as bad or worse with quality for a lot longer and have never been called on it.

My first and last American car was a Dodge Ram.   I had 3 steering columns replaced in the vehicle because the crumple tube kept breaking causing me to lose the ability to steer.   Each time it happened, It could have been life threatening.   I did some research and found that it was a known issue.

1) There was never a recall
2) The third time it happened the vehicle was out of warranty and Chrysler refused to pay for ANY of it.   The column alone was $1500.00 with tons of labor to replace it.
3) This was just the most serious of a long line of constant problems with the vehicle.

It's actually kind of funny,  It's like we expect the American automakers to build crap and we get riled when the Japanese do the same.   I guess we've come to expect more out of them than U.S. automakers.  I guess that's because more Asian autos are made in the U.S. than U.S autos?

[ark_ader]

I support American products and I buy Chevy. 

[Vanguard]

Chevy makes more cars/trucks in Canada and Mexico than they do the U.S.

The same is true for most U.S. Automakers.

[Ginsu Victim]

I support American products and I buy Chevy. 

Government Motors?

No thanks.

[saint]

Meh. Today's just Toyota's turn in the barrel. I think no higher nor lower of Toyota after this.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

Well, I think it's a good move that where Toyota is aware that there is a possible safety issue it is recalling vehicles, at least they are not repeating the whole Ford Pinto petrol tank issue.

The problem is that their brand image has taken a huge whacking. They hadn't been selling fantastically well in the UK before these problems, I can't see this helping their situation.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

[SavannahLion]

Meh. Today's just Toyota's turn in the barrel. I think no higher nor lower of Toyota after this.

+1

I've owned a Chevy S-10 (which I loved) and had the engine blow out (which I hated). I owned a Nissan Pickup that had the engine wreck itself (twice), damaged electronics, damaged radiator, blew the drive axle (the week of my father's death) and I have a Toyota Tacoma (which I adore). My father owned Ford for most of his life and the last one, the F150, sucked ass, it had so many engine and transmission trouble it almost wasn't worth owning. Same goes for my Mother with a ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up Ford. My Fiance with a Windstar with a transmission that needed repairs not once, but twice and a bad brake module Ford seems to have trouble fixing.

My brother works as a mechanic on high end cars, eg Porsche, Ferrari, Mercedes, etc. The problems he describes for these cars are just as bad.

In the end. I don't like Ford (sorry Fordman) and I really like Toyota. Do I blame Ford or Toyota? Yes and no. It's a combination of problems that all stem from the same ultimate root cause, the consumers desire to get the cheapest highest quality car. Different car manufacturers resolve the problem differently, eg Porsche charges out the ass for their cars. However others approach the problem differently, Toyota streamlines their manufacturing process (in part) by sharing the same components across multiple models, reducing the need for costly R&D. In the long run, this hopefully saves money somewhere since the auto manufacturer isn't recreating the wheel with every new model. But if there's a problem... boy there would be a problem.

So if Toyota didn't reuse the same component, and only one specific model was affected, would congress have dragged Toyoda into their sites? Most likely not. At least Toyoda ultimately took personal responsibility, which is more than what I can say for the CEOs of other auto manufacturers.

On a related note, whatever came of the Ford transmission problem? Anyone recall how Ford transmissions could be bumped into neutral from park without the engine running? Ford (and other manufacturers) used that same transmission for years and apparently knew about the problem for years, but it didn't even come out until about what... twenty years ago? I know both of my Father's F-150s used that transmission. I know my brother and my dogs would knock the transmission into neutral. We always had to put blocks to ensure the Fords didn't roll away. I don't even recall if Ford ever went before Congress for that one. Ford eventually modified their transmissions, but not before thousands, if not millions, of those transmissions entered the market.

So yeah, I'm not keen on this problem. This is just the tip of the barrel. If the market and consumer tendencies are any indication, this is not going to be the last or most severe problem we'll encounter. Should Toyota take responsibility, yes and they are. Will that stop me from buying another Toyota? Heh, wanna sell me your defective Toyota?

[Hoopz]

I've got a 2003 Windstar that's had some issues including transmission problems.  I've owned Fords, Chevy, Honda etc.  They've all had issues albeit some more expensive or bigger than others.

My only comment about the current situation is that it took the leader having a problem to boost Ford, Chevy and Chrysler sales.  That's not indicative of the product that the Big 3 makes though.  People don't want to buy a problem vehicle so they have a few other options.  Naturally, those companies are going to see higher sales as should Kia, Honda, etc.

I do think one thing is telling though.  During the fall, Ford was quite visible during NFL games with their commercials.  I thought it was interesting that their selling points were all cosmetic...literally.  It wasn't about quality then.  They were selling cars based on stuff like:

1. Interior LED lights that could change colors.
2. Gas caps or something that wouldnt get gas on me
3. IIRC a stereo system or interface like the Chrysler MyGig (or something akin to that).

None of those things made me want to buy another Ford.  None of those things would make me want to buy ANY car.  I think most middle class Americans want to buy cars based on value/quality.  You can't have the best quality for the least amount of money so it has to be quality value.  I'm not sure the Big 3 get that yet.

Toyota should have addressed this differently but in a year (six months?) will this still have an impact on their sales?  I doubt it. 

[javeryh]

I drive a 2009 Rav4 Sport - 6 cylinders.  I love it.  Luckily, my car was not recalled.  I don't think the recall will have any effect as to whether I buy Toyota again.

[TOK]

There is not any car I've ever heard of that can't be put in park while its moving. They have a prawl that keeps the transmission from being damaged. Makes a hell of a racket though. Certainly every car can be put in neutral.

Car & Driver did a test in the last issue and every car they tested, including a 400+ HP Roush Mustang could be stopped at full throttle by putting on the brakes. Nissan/Infinity cars already have the gas over-ride the government is mandating. The G35 or whatever it was they tested stopped in pretty much the same distance full throttle or not.

My opinion on this is that its possibly something wrong with the drive by wire system, but is only compounded by absolutely idiotic driver error. If you have to to make phone calls and have a discussion about the problem, but don't have the foresight to throw the car out of gear, even if it means bouncing it off the rev limiter until it blows up, you shouldn't have a license to begin with.

People are now piling on to Toyotas problem, including a guy that slammed into a stopped car going 90 mph and was found negligent... The Toyota he was driving didn't even have the drive by wire setup that is common in all the other cases.

[Fordman]

There is not any car I've ever heard of that can't be put in park while its moving. They have a prawl that keeps the transmission from being damaged. Makes a hell of a racket though. Certainly every car can be put in neutral.

Most cars made today are software controlled in the valve body keeping the transmission from going into park when at speeds above 3mph. This saves the hardware in the gearbox. Yes, it should have been able to go into neutral but something else was wrong preventing it from going into neutral. I dont know their software, but it should be industry standard that lets it go into neutral. Even though you put it into park at speeds above 3mph, the valve body reads the rpm - speed and then prevents the clutch shifting into park. That software controls the transmission more so than the shifter.

Fordman

[ark_ader]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

Well that kinda hits a sore spot mate - while yes I am an American I also reside in the UK. - I also had a Daewoo in the US.  Then I found out Daewoo went bankrupt 6 months after I bought it.  Also the extended warranty was not covered by Daewoo.  So I fully understand that problem.  I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.  Not Korean, Japanese or Chinese crappy made cars.  Just don't get me started on Honda.  While I'm on about cars - the UK make crap cars too. 

[Ginsu Victim]

I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.

Something run by the government can never be called "quality"

[AtomSmasher]

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/dansk-port-teknik-garage-door-ad/full/

[Silas (son of Silas)]

I support American products and I buy Chevy.  

Well, I guess you're an American living in America so you get 'proper' Chevy's?

Have you seen the steaming pile of Daewoo crap that gets badged and flogged as Chevy in the UK?

Well that kinda hits a sore spot mate - while yes I am an American I also reside in the UK. - I also had a Daewoo in the US.  Then I found out Daewoo went bankrupt 6 months after I bought it.  Also the extended warranty was not covered by Daewoo.  So I fully understand that problem.  I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.  Not Korean, Japanese or Chinese crappy made cars.  Just don't get me started on Honda.  While I'm on about cars - the UK make crap cars too. 

Oops.. sorry, No offense intended. My comment comes from the fact that Americans get Camaros, Corvettes and the like and we get lumbered with the bloody Matisse.

As far as British cars go... We don't really make cars anymore do we? Jag's are Indian (formerly American), Rollers and Bentleys are German etc etc.

[TOK]

There is not any car I've ever heard of that can't be put in park while its moving. They have a prawl that keeps the transmission from being damaged. Makes a hell of a racket though. Certainly every car can be put in neutral.

Most cars made today are software controlled in the valve body keeping the transmission from going into park when at speeds above 3mph. This saves the hardware in the gearbox. Yes, it should have been able to go into neutral but something else was wrong preventing it from going into neutral. I dont know their software, but it should be industry standard that lets it go into neutral. Even though you put it into park at speeds above 3mph, the valve body reads the rpm - speed and then prevents the clutch shifting into park. That software controls the transmission more so than the shifter.

Fordman

Did not know this, thanks. I agree that Reverse and Park should be read as Neutral by the transmission.
I have one truck with an electronically controlled trans, but jamming it in park while moving is not an experiment I want to try!

[Fordman]

Ive been making transmissions and parts for many years and for the last 2-3 years just really learning what it was I was making and how/why they are made that way. I really didnt pay attention to what/why a differential was for or how they worked until someone posted a video here on BYOAC a month or so ago.

As for those that has Ford transmission problems, years ago in the Explorer's and F-150's Ford sold more vehicles than it could make transmissions for, so they outsourced the trans to Getrag (borg-warner) (made in mexico) and ZF (german company but made in USA). Also, Aisin (toyota) is another outsourced trans that Ford has used in the past. We was getting alot of problems with the Getrag's so they just made the internals, Ford actually assembled them in Livinonia, Michigan.
The trans problems were the clutch packs were wearing to quickly from bad clutch disks and bad park prawls/rooster combs. Ford had to inspect them one by one before assembly. BTW every part we get from mexico gets inspected at least 2 times, from china - at least 4 times. Mexico's parts have a 20% defect return as china's is around 80 percent. Some how, some way, they make money by sending us junk.

Ford execs where dragged into Congress to explain the Explorer roll over and tire problems in the 90's. It was all over the news but we wasnt as hyper sensative the way we are today. The tire problem was 100% linked to Firestone tires made with carbon black at a plant in Illinois, USA with scab labor as they were having a labor dispute at the time. Bridgestone was bought out by a jap company with a succesorship clause and the new owners thought they would ignore it and fire everyone. Well, they payed alot of cash for that mistake! Notice how Firestone quietly dropped the name and just use their parent name: Bridgestone?

Fordman

[Ginsu Victim]

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/dansk-port-teknik-garage-door-ad/full/

That's great!

[Ginsu Victim]

http://www.firestone.com/

[Vanguard]

I also buy Chevy especially S10 and I will continue to buy Chevy as it is real American Quality.  

Your S10 is real LATIN America Quality (depending on year it was built):

Chevy Vehicles made in Latin America

Cars     Spark Celta/Prisma Corsa B/Chevy C2 Corsa C Aveo Optra Astra B Astra C/Vectra Vectra C
Trucks  Montana/Tornado S-10 D-Max Silverado Avalanche  Crossovers HHR Captiva Captiva Sport Traverse  
MPVs    Meriva Tacuma/Rezzo Zafira    

[Malenko]

I lvoe my tC. I used to stick strictly with US MADE cars ( like the 2 Mitsubishi Eclipses I owned, btoh made in illinois) but now I bought what I like and what fits me. I think toyota has done the right thing to try and fix the wrong, my Scion dealer even called me today to reaffrim that the tC I bought wasnt part of the recall and to call back if I had any questions.

[missioncontrol]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

[CCM]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

Really?  I thought that the Explorer was one of the best selling SUV's of all time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer#Yearly_American_sales

[missioncontrol]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

Really?  I thought that the Explorer was one of the best selling SUV's of all time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer#Yearly_American_sales

yeah and everyone I know who has had one has had transmission issues with theirs and yet my Bronco still runs strong.

[CCM]

Hello All,

Its no secret on BYOAC that I work for Ford Motor Company, so my thoughts may be a little biased at times when it comes to the auto industry.

can you have them bring back the Bronco, because you know that whole Ford Exploder thing or Explorer as they like to call them, didn't work out so well for them

Really?  I thought that the Explorer was one of the best selling SUV's of all time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Explorer#Yearly_American_sales

yeah and everyone I know who has had one has had transmission issues with theirs and yet my Bronco still runs strong.

That may well be, but Ford still sold a boat load of them.   I had a 1991 Explorer Sport, it ran like a champ until I traded it in, in 1999. 

edit:  I did have some alternator issues, but the transmission was solid...

[saint]

Between 3 Ford Taurus models and 1 Windstar in the family, we've had to replace... 4 transmissions. Love my Fords otherwise, but I'd be hard pressed to own another. Oldest was a 1989 model I believe, newest was a 2003.

[hypernova]

My wife was partial to Dodges, until I asked her "what about all the problem you keep having?"

I've had a Nissan Pulsar, Geo Tracker, and now a Chevy Cavalier, all good vehicles to me.  The 2 Stratuses we've had seem to always need somthing each year or two.

[Ginsu Victim]

My wife was partial to Dodges, until I asked her "what about all the problem you keep having?"

Tell me about it. My wife and I both had Dodges (she had a '93 Shadow, I had a '99 Neon) and we had trouble constantly (electrical mainly on hers, but I had oil leak problems, timing issues, etc), not to mention the paint started peeling off both of them.

Now we share an '08 Honda CR-V and love it. No problems so far.

[saint]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

[Ginsu Victim]

Hell yeah, Honda is awesome.

[boykster]

I currently own 2 Toyota (lexus) vehicles, and I love them both.  My 2000 RX300 is a super solid vehicle, and my 2006 IS sedan is a kick in the ass to drive.  The build quality on the 2000 RX is definately better than the newer sedan though, so I agree that at least on the Lexus line they've put volume over quality.  My 10 year old SUV has minimal rattles, but my newer sedan developed a dash rattle after 6 months.  Sure, Lexus stood behind the car and fixed the problem under warranty and provided me a comparable loaner car for the duration of the service.

I agree with the sentiment that this is Toyota's moment under the microscope.  Ford recovered from the Explorer tire issue, Toyota will survive this too.

[Fordman]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

Wow, you got Honda to cover it out of warranty? How did you happen to manage that? Honda is the industry leading fighter of warranty claims. Honda is kinda like Sony when it comes to their products. They believe that they are so good that they dont have to quality check them as they come off the line. Honda is a good vehicle and they also have issues just like any other company. They fight warranty claims tooth and nail and usually and dont care if they loose your future business because they belive that 10 more people will walk in to the showroom right behind you. That has been their business model for years. We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

[Vanguard]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warranty.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

I had the same thing happen except my Odyssey was 2 years out of warranty.

The only thing that pissed me off about this is that Honda denied there was a problem when a simple search on the internet turned up tons of information that it was a know problem.

Honda did replace the transmission 100% free but I would have liked them to be honest about there being a problem.

BTW Saint, I still have the Odyssey and just had service done on it.   I told them the dealer that they had replaced the transmission 18,000 miles ago and asked them if I should do anything special like change the transmission oil more frequently.  The service person said, "no, it looks like they replaced the computer at the same time they replaced the transmission.  The computer was the root of the transmission problem".   That was the first time I'd heard Honda even come close to an admitting there was a problem.

Regardless, because they did the right thing, when we replace the Odyssey, it will be with another Honda.

[Vanguard]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

Wow, you got Honda to cover it out of warranty? How did you happen to manage that? Honda is the industry leading fighter of warranty claims. Honda is kinda like Sony when it comes to their products. They believe that they are so good that they don't have to quality check them as they come off the line. Honda is a good vehicle and they also have issues just like any other company. They fight warranty claims tooth and nail and usually and dont care if they loose your future business because they belive that 10 more people will walk in to the showroom right behind you. That has been their business model for years. We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

I've owned 4 Honda's and never had any issue with warranty claims.  Not one.   With my Odyssey, I just took it to the dealer and told them the transmission was slipping and failing to shift into second sometimes.   I told them I knew it was a reported problem and that I'd like them to cover it out of warranty.   The dealer said, "well have to contact Honda".   They did and Honda said yes.   I think in this case, they knew there was a problem with the design and they took responsibility for it.

I've never had a single problem with any of my Honda's that was an assembly line issue.   The vehicles have always been put together very well.   The only warranty stuff I've ever had (other than the transmission) has been minor stuff like a radio going bad or a dash light going out.   Those were covered without argument.   My Dodge was a completely different story.   There were design flaws all over the place, poorly assembled, poorly serviced and every problem out of warranty was denied coverage.   Even problems that had happened multiple times with the same part under warranty.

[saint]

I have a Honda Odyssey - shortly after the warranty ran out, the transmission pooped out on it as well. I got two responses from Honda:

1. Hm. We don't have those kind of problems.
2. We're going to cover it under warranty even though it's out of warrany.

My next car I will be looking at Hondas first.

Wow, you got Honda to cover it out of warranty? How did you happen to manage that? Honda is the industry leading fighter of warranty claims. Honda is kinda like Sony when it comes to their products. They believe that they are so good that they dont have to quality check them as they come off the line. Honda is a good vehicle and they also have issues just like any other company. They fight warranty claims tooth and nail and usually and dont care if they loose your future business because they belive that 10 more people will walk in to the showroom right behind you. That has been their business model for years. We have plenty of ex-Honda engineers and managers that work for Ford that will tell you how Honda operates.

Fordman

I didn't do a thing - they just told me they'd cover it without my asking.  Ford has treated me like dirt when I've needed work. Dunno.

[TOK]

So, tell me if I'm reading this thread wrong but... 

You guys had fundamental things go wrong with your cars, things that shouldn't have, but because the company fixed it, you'll buy another one?

 

Ever hear that thing about the true measure of a company being not how they treat you when things go right, but what they do when things go wrong?

Its always better for things not to fail (Saint seems hard on transmissions!  ), but you have to respect Honda for standing behind their product, even when they were no longer obligated.

[saint]

So, tell me if I'm reading this thread wrong but... 

You guys had fundamental things go wrong with your cars, things that shouldn't have, but because the company fixed it, you'll buy another one?

 

What TOK said. You've never had a car repair?

[HaRuMaN]

All car companies are going to have something fundamental fail in their vehicles, it's inevitable.  It's what they do afterward that's important.