I want a game room! Should I build an UNDERGROUND LAIR or move?

[javeryh]

OK, here's the deal.  I live in a very small house (the footprint is 25' x 25') on a very small property (0.14 acres).  There is a basement but it is unfinishable (is that even a word?) because we constantly get water down there and the ceilings are less than 6 ft.  The walls are made of stone which is how the water gets in - the house is 100+ years old.  We are at maximum capacity with 2 kids and hopefully more on the way in the near future.  We love the neighborhood (old fashioned - there is a center of town with many shops and restaurants that we can walk to, great public schools and a train station to NYC) so we would prefer to stay where we are.  That said, we either need to move to a bigger house in town or put an addition on the current one.  In either scenario there must be a basement big enough for 3 rooms - a home theater, a mini bar and a game room - that is my only requirement.  

Building an addition would be a lot of fun but I'm not sure I'd be able to get all of the room I need.  Moving into a bigger house in town would be VERY expensive.  One of the scenarios I'm thinking about is building a room underneath the back yard that is bigger than the addition to the house (like maybe we extend the back of the house out 12-15 feet but the basement area would extend out 20-25 feet) but I have no idea if this is even feasible or what the cost might be.  Have any of you put additions on your houses recently?  How much am I looking at?  In addition to the basement, we would be adding on a TV room on the main floor and a master bedroom with bath (very small - toilet, sink standing shower) on the second floor...

[Level42]

I thought about making a basement in my yard/garden as well. It would have gained me much more space than I have now. However, in my area of our country, the ground is very weak and soft. We need piles if we want to build anything with a high weight.

Over here there are pre-fab concrete basements that you can have installed. The general idea is: dig a hole big enough, put the basement in, finish off.
However, since the mentioned ground condition I would need piles, which are very expensive. (The basement itself is actually pretty reasonably priced). Adding to that is that the water level in the ground is very high here. About 1m. below the surface. This causes another problem because the water will push the basement up (like a boat that floats). So that would require an extra heavy basement.
Plus, for this reason, there would some temporary water management needed and walls to keep the ground up for my neighbors.

All in all, this would have been a great idea if I lived in some other area with a firm but easy to dig ground (sand).

Not sure if that's an option for you, but since you mention it. The pre-fab stuff is great because it's really water-tight.

[HaRuMaN]

javeryh, have you looked into the local building codes to see if you can even legally do what you are proposing?

[Malenko]

It will cost so much more then you think for any of those options, like take what you think it costs and double or triple it. You most sound choice is to just buy a bigger home or do without a game room.

javeryh, have you looked into the local building codes to see if you can even legally do what you are proposing?

that too

[HaRuMaN]

do without a game room.

Blasphemy!

[Malenko]

ok ok, without a game room......for now.

fix't 

[javeryh]

Level42: I didn't know pre-fab basements existed.  I'm not sure about the US but it is something I will look into - especially if it will save some cost.  I'm definitely above sea level - it would be interesting to dig a giant hole in the back yard and then drop a prefab concrete room down there!

HarumaN: I have not looked into building codes or anything yet - good idea!  I'm still in the preliminary design phase (scribbling on a napkin!) but just about every house on my block has an addition so I don't think it will be a problem (although my underground proposal might be even though in theory I don't see why anyone would object to what you can't see).  I have looked at the setbacks on my property and I will be well within them for whatever I end up doing.

Malenko:  You are 100% right about it costing way more than whatever the estimate ends up being I am sure.  Going without the gameroom/home theater/bar isn't an option though!  I am pretty frugal, I live in a modest house, I spend below my means, I have no debt (other than my mortgage), I don't drive fancy cars and I don't have any super expensive hobbies other than arcade machines which isn't that expensive (but I have no room for them!).  In order to move into a larger house in my town I'll likely have to spend about $200,000 more than what I'm currently paying for my house so if I can keep the addition in the $100,000-$120,000 range then I guess I come out ahead, right?  Of course I could do nothing but I'm in my mid 30s and I've always wanted a kick ass gameroom/home theater/bar - it's time to make this happen or before I know it I'll be too old to enjoy it!   

[HanoiBoi]

First off, are your requirements the same as your wife's?  If not, please mark this as a dead thread.  

Some people that I know of (and some I know) have done away with the traditional 'dining room' and 'formal living room' and used those areas for bars, pool tables etc.  This could be an option if you have rooms like these that don't get any use.  And, if your family is 'cool' with it.

It's a shame to waste that < 6ft basement area though.  Regardless of the stone, I imagine it could be waterproofed for a price.  Excavate the exterior and waterproof from there (not sure about the floor).  If your family is 'small', that space could be used for kids' rooms, I'd guess, freeing up other areas?

If you go the 'addition' route, must it be with a basement?  If you can build an addition off the main, could that be your game room?

Also, don't be too quick to rule out a bigger house in your town due to pricing.  Housing prices are down, even in NJ.  If you've got the time, it can't hurt to contact a Realtor and give them your specs/requirements and let them do the work for you!

[javeryh]

The wife is on board.  She knows it's something I've always wanted AND I decided to trade something for the rights to build the room.  I've been on the Giants season ticket waiting list since 1989.  This past year they FINALLY called!  I was so excited until I heard the ridiculous cost - they wanted $15,000 for the PSL (one time fee) and $8,000 per year for the tickets!!  My lovely wife gave me the green light to get the tickets but I told her in exchange for the tickets I wanted to build a nice home theater with a mini bar and gameroom in some hypothetical house some day.  Plus, I don't have $23,000 just laying around.  So no tickets but hopefully I'll have a 100" HD screen to watch the games in the few years.

There's no way she would go for turning a room on the main floor into a game room - there is no space and I don't think I'd like that either.  She already puts up with a DK in the dining room and that's enough!!  Our basement really is unusable - I have to duck at all times down there so it would be really bad if we lost some space due to a proper ceiling.  Also, the floor leaks too - it isn't level and everything is graded so that water goes to one spot down there where a drain has been installed.  It is definitely a shame but we use the basement for storage and laundry.

I am going to contact a realtor and see what's out there - we are in no rush so it can't hurt to look around. 

[LLUncoolJ]

There should be a way to divert the water from your basement, but you will have to dig around the house and put in drainage tile, plus you need a place to dump or pump it. The low ceilings are a bigger problem. I don't know if it is possible to dig it out except by hand, leaving the only other option: jack the hose up and build up the foundation and setthe house back.

As far as an addition, a .13 acre lot doesn't leave you much space. Keep in mind, if you build a larger basement than main floor, you are going to have troubles with water leaking, unless you build a ground level roof (which would look silly). I'm afraid your best bet is to move. Either sacrifice living in town or shell out the big bucks.

[Cakemeister]

The wife is on board.  She knows it's something I've always wanted AND I decided to trade something for the rights to build the room.  I've been on the Giants season ticket waiting list since 1989.  This past year they FINALLY called!  I was so excited until I heard the ridiculous cost - they wanted $15,000 for the PSL (one time fee) and $8,000 per year for the tickets!!  My lovely wife gave me the green light to get the tickets but I told her in exchange for the tickets I wanted to build a nice home theater with a mini bar and gameroom in some hypothetical house some day.  Plus, I don't have $23,000 just laying around.  So no tickets but hopefully I'll have a 100" HD screen to watch the games in the few years.

If you went to three games and sold the other five games for double the face value, that would net you $2,000 per year, you'd eventually make your PSL money back. How much would you get by selling to StubHub or whereever? If you've been waiting 20 years for the tickets I think you should get them.

[ChadTower]

Can't speak for the Giants but I know that violates the Season Ticket Contract for the Patriots.  You can only sell ANY tickets on their dedicated forum that for some reason is only open to season ticket holders.  If you get caught doing it any other way they yank your season tickets.  If you even GIVE your tickets away, and the person gets ejected, they yank your season tickets.  They make it pretty much so you can only GIVE your tickets away to someone you absolutely trust to not get your season tickets revoked.  And yes, they are very very aggressive about finding people who violate the contract.

[RayB]

You could always put the kids up for adoption. That will free up some space.

[shardian]

My opinion: Great location + great neighbors + great town > gameroom.

[javeryh]

There should be a way to divert the water from your basement, but you will have to dig around the house and put in drainage tile, plus you need a place to dump or pump it. The low ceilings are a bigger problem. I don't know if it is possible to dig it out except by hand, leaving the only other option: jack the hose up and build up the foundation and setthe house back.

As far as an addition, a .13 acre lot doesn't leave you much space. Keep in mind, if you build a larger basement than main floor, you are going to have troubles with water leaking, unless you build a ground level roof (which would look silly). I'm afraid your best bet is to move. Either sacrifice living in town or shell out the big bucks.

I have looked into jacking up the house but that is also very expensive.  Ideally I'd like to jack up the house AND add the addition so I'd have one giant basement area but without doing any research I know it will cost too much.  There has to be a way to put a concrete box underground without a traditional roof on top.  I was thinking about sinking it a few feet below ground level and covering it with some stones for drainage - the top of the concrete box would have to be sloped to deal with the water flow but this seems doable to me (based on not knowing anything about anything  ).

If you went to three games and sold the other five games for double the face value, that would net you $2,000 per year, you'd eventually make your PSL money back. How much would you get by selling to StubHub or whereever? If you've been waiting 20 years for the tickets I think you should get them.

I thought about this but each ticket is $400 face value (so $800 for a pair x 10 games with the two preseason games they force on you = $8,000/year).  No one is going to want to pay $1,600 to go to a Giants game.  It's just too expensive.  I don't know how enough people can afford these prices to fill the stadium. 

Can't speak for the Giants but I know that violates the Season Ticket Contract for the Patriots.  You can only sell ANY tickets on their dedicated forum that for some reason is only open to season ticket holders.  If you get caught doing it any other way they yank your season tickets.  If you even GIVE your tickets away, and the person gets ejected, they yank your season tickets.  They make it pretty much so you can only GIVE your tickets away to someone you absolutely trust to not get your season tickets revoked.  And yes, they are very very aggressive about finding people who violate the contract.

The Giants have the same policy.  Two years ago they revoked a bunch of season tickets for their guests throwing snowballs onto the field.

You could always put the kids up for adoption. That will free up some space.

Due to the layout of my house, I'd still need an addition with or without the kids and since those little buggers have grown on me I think I'll keep them!

My opinion: Great location + great neighbors + great town > gameroom.

Ugh.  Not what I wanted to hear even though this is a really good answer and deep down I think I feel this way too. 

I started tinkering around in SketchUp - it is confusing but I have the first floor of my house laid out (sort of).  I'm going to mess around and see how much room I'll really need to get what I want...

[pinballwizard79]

Jav here are a few things to think about:

1. The commission to a Realtor for selling the current home + closing costs on new loan & most of all restarting your amortization table (thats really the biggie actually) on the new loan = TONS of $$$$$ But then again rates are low & so are the housing costs but that will also affect the sale of the current property too. Whew...

2. However home projects & additions always cost double what you estimate & never really offer a return except in a falsely inflated market which never seems to last.

So flip a coin, either way you are going to drop some money but then again you cant take it with you either.

[SavannahLion]

A basement in the yard? Why didn't I read this thread earlier?

Besides bomb shelters, are there any homes at all that have... extended or external basements like that?

My old home has a basement and sub basement that extend out to support a deck above. But not out into the backyard (there is no traditional backyard worth mentioning on that property).

You have a 100 year old home so it's probably protected under preservation laws (are you in the U.S.?). But does the law extend to improving the foundation? I've seen the law applied in a fashion that prevents the owner from even painting the house any other color other than the color it was when it fell under protection, even if the color scheme is incorrect (eg Winchester Mansion). But I've also seen houses happily modified inside into office space or modern living as long as the external appearance is preserved. It also allows for improvements to the structure if it can be argued that such improvements improve the structural integrity eg Earthquake retrofits.

I imagine that water in the basement could be an argument for a retrofit to preserve the integrity of the home. The retrofit would be a way to build a new sealed basement and make it slightly larger.

If the home isn't protected by preservation laws. Don't seek it out unless you really really want the red tape that goes with it. I tore down a 50+ year old structure last summer and I couldn't even touch it with an sledgehammer until the preservation guys came out and okayed the demo.  

Of course, given the cost of retrofitting the basement, it might be less headache to buy a house with a larger basement.

[javeryh]

A basement in the yard? Why didn't I read this thread earlier?

Besides bomb shelters, are there any homes at all that have... extended or external basements like that?

Well, THIS GUY did it but he must have about a bajillion dollars (give or take a few 20lb diamonds).

My house is definitely not historic in any way unless the town has deemed every single house in town historic.  My neighborhood is jam packed with 100 year old houses on tiny tiny lots (I can watch my neighbor's TV easily if he leaves his blinds up) and just about everyone around me has an addition of some kind.  The neighbors across the street are putting an addition on right now.

It is a really cool idea and would help me save space in the back yard yet get the space I need in the basement.  I did some measuring outside this weekend and I think I can get the space I need without having to go this route but I'm still going to look into maybe extending 5 ft or so underneath the ground out from the edge of the addition.  I'm planning to extend the house out 15 ft along the entire back (which would add a 15' x 25' space for the basement (game room/theater/bar), first floor (family room/breakfast nook/office) and second floor (master bedroom and bath).  If I could get an additional 5ft underground this would add about 125sqft to the room down there.

Of course, this is all hypothetical because I have no idea how much this will cost and I probably can't afford it but it is nice to dream...  

[Silas (son of Silas)]

are there any homes at all that have... extended or external basements like that?

Yeah, these are becoming more and more common in Europe. Have a look at Thermonex as an example of a UK based company. I am planning to move house this year (once I sort out my job situation) and my intention is to choose a house based on its potential for adding a pre-fab basement.

[ark_ader]

are there any homes at all that have... extended or external basements like that?

Yeah, these are becoming more and more common in Europe. Have a look at Thermonex as an example of a UK based company. I am planning to move house this year (once I sort out my job situation) and my intention is to choose a house based on its potential for adding a pre-fab basement.

Just make sure you can get out of the basement within 20 seconds if there is a problem, like flooding or fire.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

A lot of the garden basements have exits into the garden itself, like a back door.

I was just looking at the link I posted earlier. I like this pic:

[SavannahLion]

A basement in the yard? Why didn't I read this thread earlier?

Besides bomb shelters, are there any homes at all that have... extended or external basements like that?

Well, THIS GUY did it but he must have about a bajillion dollars (give or take a few 20lb diamonds).

Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in a hand basket. That's awesome! What's with all the deleted posts by the guy though? I saw mention of removing photos of him undermining his neighbors driveway, but when it kept going for three more pages, I just decided to say, "---fudgesicle--- it," and move on.

[drventure]

I love this quote on his thread....

All the mofo home automation wiring. I seriously don't even know what half of it is for..

Hmmm.

But, it IS a nice build.

He commented at one point he started to get concerned about security when a few people started asking a few TOO MANY specific questions, so he deleted a ton of posts.

After all, dudes got a ferrari, and a porsche in the garage, then what's got to be a hundred thousand in HT equipment downstairs.

[Silas (son of Silas)]

He commented at one point he started to get concerned about security when a few people started asking a few TOO MANY specific questions, so he deleted a ton of posts.

Yeah, Like

That's a neat home security system you have there, must have cost a bundle? What's the code? I notice you have lots of nice cars, which one's do you leave at home when you go on vacation? Talking of vacation, where are you going this year and what EXACT dates?

[Thenasty]

Build a BATCADE and invite all in BYOAC for the grand opening (make sure u have lots of games ready). 

[javeryh]

I want to price it out but I have no idea what type of company would be able to do this in the US.  If I can get some sort of pre-fab structure put underground and it doesn't cost too much then why not?  It would have to be pre-fab in sections though or as my wife put it "what are you going to do, have them airlift the box into the back yard?"  She's right - there's no way to get something like that between the houses and into the back yard.  All I'd want is for the space to be created (concrete structure and electrical/hvac conduits run) and then I could work on it over the next two years or so finishing it mostly myself.  It's a crazy idea for sure but I think it would really make the house interesting.

[Howard_Casto]

If you are going to live there indefinately you are going to HAVE to fix the basement issue anyway so you might as well bite the bullet and have it fixed and use that space for your purposes.  Just because the house is really old and it's survived the problem doesn't mean that it isn't a serious problem.  The main side-effect of lingering water in your house is mold, and it can be a life-threatening thing.  Diverting water away from a basement is not THAT hard.  You have to dig all around the foundation and install a heavy duty water barrier.  It's best to have this done professionally, but it is possible to do it on your own.  After that it's simply a matter of sloping the yard away from the house and/or making some french drains.  Then just to be sure you can paint the inside of the basement with a sealent like you would use in a garage.  Then you should be good to go. 

Also I would reccommend some compromise.  You obviously don't have enough room to make the gameroom you want practical so you might have to get rid of a few ideas.  That's life unfortunately.