Author Topic: Q-bert controls software asjustment ? (Read 12400 times)

Level42 · « **on:** May 25, 2006, 02:38:34 pm »

I know some people have a dedicated 4 way stick that they turned 45 degrees to play Q-bert. Isn't there a software way to "translate" the diagonal signals of an 8 way stick to the correct signals for Q-bert ? I know it can't be done by keyboard settings in mame (or can it ?) Please, no discussion about wether this is the "real thing" or not....just the software part please

ahofle · « **Reply #1 on:** May 25, 2006, 02:46:30 pm »

It can be done in MAME. Just point your joystick down and left at the same time when mapping an input and MAME should register "DOWN+LEFT" for example. Works pretty well actually.

dpz147 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2006, 02:52:43 pm »

Quote from: ahofle on May 25, 2006, 02:46:30 pm

It can be done in MAME. Just point your joystick down and left at the same time when mapping an input and MAME should register "DOWN+LEFT" for example. Works pretty well actually.

Would you have to use an 8-way for that? I have p360's and I would think the one set in 4-way mode wouldn't register "down+left"?

ahofle · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2006, 02:57:07 pm »

Hmmm, I'm not sure as I don't have a P360 (unfortunately). But I'm guessing you're right -- it wouldn't work if the 4-way mode prevents both down and left signals simultaneously.

Level42 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2006, 03:07:15 pm »

Of course it has to be in 8 way mode. Else the P360 will not put out the diagonals. I'm actualy asking this since I want to use it with my Suzo Inductive. From the joysticks controller (I-pac/J-pac, whatever) point of view, these are the same.

However, I now also understand the problem. What does Q-bert do when you hit a up, left, right or left ONLY, instead of the diagonals ? You need to disable or filter out these signals. THAT is the problem

2600 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2006, 03:11:41 pm »

You don't need to disable or filter out anything. Just do what ahofle said or map it in the cfg yourself. Use the search as others have done the same.

ahofle · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2006, 03:14:24 pm »

Well it's not ideal (nothing is other than a 4 way restricted joystick in 45 degree orientation) but it works. And as 2600 pointed out, you don't need to "filter" anything out. If you press only LEFT, nothing happens. Anyway, you said yourself "no discussion about wether this is the "real thing" or not."

Level42 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2006, 04:11:03 pm »

Thanks guys, it works and I'm a bit ashamed I didn't figure this out myself

It's certainly playable with an Inductive. The advantage with this stick is you have the same resistance whatever way you push it.... But I can see how a real 4-way could be better here. I never felt the need for it playing other 4 way games like Ms.Pac Man or DK etc.

Why didn't anyone sample the sound of a knocker and put it up with the other samples for Q-bert ? Nothing can beat the real sound and feel of a real knocker of course, but my full HiFi system inside my cab would probably come pretty close

ahofle · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2006, 04:48:12 pm »

The MAME devs answer would probably be that it isn't "authentic" emulation.

Is this feature on the PowerMAME list?

Level42 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2006, 05:10:08 pm »

Don't know. It should. Even better, it should send out a signal to trigger a real knocker !

Could be done through the keyboard LED's IMHO

ahofle · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2006, 05:14:03 pm »

The keyboard LED flashing code in MAME has been broken since v0.105 (not kidding you like the DAY AFTER I finally got LEDs hooked up to my player 1 and 2 buttons).

juggle50 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2006, 05:46:27 pm »

On page two, close to the end of this thread there is discussion about how to install a real Qbert knocker using powermame and ledwiz. It is going to be my next project.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=50002.0

JustMichael · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2006, 06:04:11 pm »

Level42, do you mean like:

In Mame you can do this by making Mame accept only the diagonal directions. Here is an example for qbert:
Hit "Tab" and go down to "Input (this game)"
Go down to P1 Right and hit "Enter"
Now hit the down arrow then right after that hit the right arrow (it should say "Down Arrow Right Arrow" in just a couple seconds)
Now do the same for the other directions but use:
P1 Left: Left Arrow Up Arrow
P1 Up: Up Arrow Right Arrow
P1 Down: Down Arrow Left Arrow

If you make a mistake, just select the line again and press "ESC" to reset the control to its normal key.

Once you have done this, qbert is tons of fun with an 8-way stick!

Level42 · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2006, 06:47:41 pm »

Ahofle: THAT SUCKS !!!

Is it fixed in 1.06 ?

juggle50: That ROCKS !!! I definitly want that !!!

JustMichael: Exactly ! I figured out the directions myself by playing q-bert, and it works like a charm. I actualy had to get used to having to hit the "right" directions !
FYI, exactly the same settings work for Flip & Flop too. However, I've played this game a lot on my real Atari's and as far as I remember, it didn't work with the diagonals, but it also doesnt use the default directions that Mame uses. I need to figure this out with my Atari or an Emulator. Which is probably better for running this game any way no stupid money count-down........I seem to be drifting off sorry, but Flip & Flop is a bit like Q-bert ....

ahofle · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2006, 07:03:43 pm »

Quote from: Level42 on May 25, 2006, 06:47:41 pm

Ahofle: THAT SUCKS !!! Is it fixed in 1.06 ?

Nope it's still broken.

I opened a bugreport on mametesters back when it happened, but I'm sure it isn't a priority for them. I actually did a diff on the source code between v104 and v105 and saw some LED stuff that changed, but nothing that looked obviously wrong to me. I really need to get a source environment and compiler setup.

Level42 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 25, 2006, 07:10:47 pm »

Can Powermame rescue us ?

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #16 on:** May 25, 2006, 08:29:22 pm »

HERE is my obligatory cross-link for this, explaining how to set up the software.

The P-360 won't work optimally because it's not square-restricted.
The square restrictor guides the joystick to the corners, where it needs to be to trigger movement.

And here is the obligatory link to Q*MAME, which tells exactly how to set MAME up to use a Q*Bert knocker.

Level42 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2006, 04:59:52 am »

Quote from: NoOne=NBA= on May 25, 2006, 08:29:22 pm

HERE is my obligatory cross-link for this, explaining how to set up the software.

The P-360 won't work optimally because it's not square-restricted.
The square restrictor guides the joystick to the corners, where it needs to be to trigger movement.

And here is the obligatory link to Q*MAME, which tells exactly how to set MAME up to use a Q*Bert knocker.

So it's all been long done !

At least I had the right idea of using the Ipac LED's to control the knocker

Should be pretty easy to incorporate this feature into Powermame I guess !

Does it neccesarely have to be the A-5195 knocker ? I guess the sound is much more determined by what the knocker hits, instead of the knocker itself. That would finding a knocker a lot easier. The A-5195 coils are pretty well available but I couldnt find the knocker assembly anywhere.

So what does the knocker hit, simply the inside of your cab, or a piece of wood placed on the cab ?

I MUST have this

NoOne=NBA= · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2006, 07:12:21 pm »

I have no idea.

I'm guessing the guy that designed Q*MAME would know, if you emailed him.

Level42 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2006, 05:26:08 am »

Hoped he might be around here, but of course I also mailed him....I'm on track for a knocker already

juggle50 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 01, 2006, 02:58:18 pm »

I think if you are going to go the powermame route, using the LEDwiz is a better option than doing it through the I-pac. I could be wrong but I believe powermame controls the LEDwiz not the Ipac.

You said you were on track to get that knocker. Do you have any leads? I'm looking for an assembly myself.

Level42 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 06, 2006, 04:03:32 am »

Hi juggle50, got your PM also, but I was out for a couple of days.

Well, I've already got an I-Pac (or actualy a J-Pac) and I don't really want to buy a LEDwizz just for triggering the knocker.
Yes Powermame is the choice when you've got a LEDwiz but until know it does not support the Q*bert knocker afaik. It's not even on the proposed features list.

So, at least for now, to get the knocker knocking, you need Q*mame (check out the site that NoOne=NBA= mentioned).

I'm still on track, but not sure what to do. As soon as I know what I do I will let you all know and give contact details. There are a couple of options.

juggle50 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 06, 2006, 09:59:37 am »

Actually, it's already been implemented in powerMame. Check out this link.

http://www.unappliedbraincells.com/demos.htm

Download demo 3 "PowerMame running event based lighting sequence." and you can see the feature in action.

It is set up as a lighting feature, so when you plug the knocker into the ledwiz the ledwiz recognizes it as a light.

Reread page 2 of this link.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=50002.40

Sir Poonga even gives a diagram on how to attatch it to the Ledwiz to make it work using a relay and powersupply.

However, I understand that the led wiz is quite an expense for just one feature. Please keep me posted if you have anymore leads on an extra knocker asembly.

Level42 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 07, 2006, 02:55:09 pm »

Mmmmm, good thing I added "afaik" !!
I probably still need to go with the Qmame option, although I'd prefer Powermame so I would not need to use two different versions of mame.

Actualy, I had seen that video before ! But is that the real knocker we are hearing, or is it the sample ? Sounds more like the sample to me.

Assuming the knocker sound is sampled from a real cab, that sound is way off from what I associate to a knocker sound. I was more thinking of the sharp TOCK sound that you get from a pinball machine for an extra ball. This is also what I seem to remember from the real cab, but the last time I played an original was about 20 years ago....

The sample sounds more like a damped THWAK....I did read somewhere this is what the creator's wanted it to be, but couldn't realize it because of cost of manufacturing ?

But if this is the true Q*bert sound, how to realize this with a normal knocker ?

Basicaly both the Ledwizz and the J-pac use a LED output to trigger the knocker, so the electronics should be the same. I personaly feel more for Brad's solution using a transistor instead of a relais, basicaly because a relay is slow. However, Brad's way of connecting things introduce the risk of feeding back the 30 V into the J-pac or LEDwizz and maybe even your mobo, if you make a mistake in the wiring or f.i. the transistor blows.
I'm thinking of a solution using an optocoupler (or better opto-isolator) together with Brad's scheme. This will protect the J-pac/Led wizz and everything else.

I've found the exact knocker by the way, I'll PM you about it.

Level42 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 08, 2006, 03:48:12 pm »

OK I found two sources for the knocker assemby:

www.pbresource.com ( I got that tip from someone here, don't remember who ?)

And this is what we're talking about:

You can find it under:
http://www.pbresource.com/hauntedhouse.html

Scroll down to cabinet parts.

I e-mailed Brad (the guy who made the first set-up and Qmame) and he confirmed this is exactly what he used.

However, Pinball Resource is not only "Keeping Pinball Affordable since 1977", it seems they also are stuck in 1977 since they don't accept Paypal or Credit Cards for international orders.....hello......it is 2006 !?!?! Global Market ? Ah well...

So I mailed Todd at www.TNTamusement.com (since I was about to order two more Suzo Inductives anyway....) and he could also offer the same knocker. Don't know if that one is new, but he says it's the same as the pbresource one (I mailed him the link of the pic).
Not sure if TNT has more, but you can always try.

juggle50 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 09, 2006, 12:41:25 pm »

Level 42, I just pmed you, thank you so much again. This is going to be awesome.

You are right about the sound on that video clip. I believe it is a sample and I don't think there is a knocker in that cab. However, what's important is the lighting effect. You can see the lights on the buttons flash when Q*bert jumps off and the knocker is supposed to fire. In theory, when you plug the knocker into the ledWiz, PowerMame and the LEDwiz won't distinguish the knocker from any other led, so it fires the knocker thinking it's an led.

Do you think there is any danger of power feeding back in Sir Poonga's diagram. I don't know much about that stuff and have never used a relay before.

Also, with the knocker, do you know if we will have to build a box for it? Or does the knocker just hit itself?

Thanks again man

Kevin

Thenasty · « **Reply #26 on:** June 09, 2006, 01:26:38 pm »

judging by the pic above, you will see that the 3 holes is for screwing the unit into (anywhere) inside the cab, and the the relay on the unit hit the metal piece. Thats all you need to do, just find a spot and screw the unit in. Some think that somehow where triggered, it hits the CABINET WOOD part, but the way that pic looks, it just hits the unit itself.
I aslo is thinking of adding a knocker inside that cab, but ATM, busy with other things...

Level42 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 09, 2006, 06:19:42 pm »

Quote from: juggle50 on June 09, 2006, 12:41:25 pm

You are right about the sound on that video clip. I believe it is a sample and I don't think there is a knocker in that cab. However, what's important is the lighting effect. You can see the lights on the buttons flash when Q*bert jumps off and the knocker is supposed to fire. In theory, when you plug the knocker into the ledWiz, PowerMame and the LEDwiz won't distinguish the knocker from any other led, so it fires the knocker thinking it's an led.

Yeah, but what happens when it triggers the LED's on other moments, in other games ? You need ONE LED output dedicated for the knocker only. It doesn't matter if it's the LEDwiz or the I-pac/J-pac. It's simply a matter of putting out +5 Volts at the right moment, for the right time.
Even so: What you see happening to the LED's on the panel when Q*bert dies, is that the LED's increase and decrease in intensity (reasonably fast, but still). You don't want this. We don't need an analogue signal, we want a direct full 5 Volts.

So, I wonder if this can actualy be done with the Ledwizz and powermame. You at least need to reserve one led output for only the knocker, and that light may not be triggered in any other game (except for Pinballs maybe). I also believe that timing is essential. It has to go at exactly the right moment to get the real "feel".

Quote from: juggle50 on June 09, 2006, 12:41:25 pm

Do you think there is any danger of power feeding back in Sir Poonga's diagram. I don't know much about that stuff and have never used a relay before.

No there's no danger because the relay is the protecting part here. It seperates the knocker circuit from the LEDwizz or I-pac/J-pac circuit. I still don't want to use a relay though...

Quote from: juggle50 on June 09, 2006, 12:41:25 pm

Also, with the knocker, do you know if we will have to build a box for it? Or does the knocker just hit itself?

It does hit itself, but the shock (noise) is transfered from the metal bracket into the wood panel you mount it on. I bet there is almost no sound when you would trigger the knocker while it is not mounted. It

juggle50 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 09, 2006, 08:34:18 pm »

Yeah, I haven't played around with powermame a ton, but from what I understand you dedicate one led port on the ledwiz to the knocker and you set it up so the qbert effect in powermame only triggers that one port. In the example, he only had his buttons light up, not his led joysticks. I also saw the fade effect on the buttons and will have to play around so that doesn't happen. I think that is an effect you add on top of the initial triggering of the led.

However, since I haven't actually built it yet I certainly can't verify what I'm talking about. I will have do it first and report back. If it doesn't work, I have a i-pac and can qmame it if necessary.

Cheers level

Kevin

Level42 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 10, 2006, 04:34:20 am »

It would be cool if it could be done with Powermame, since I prefer to use one version of mame. However, it looks like Powermame's development is coming to a halt...(see the Powermame section). which is a shame really.

My knocker is on it's way crossing the big water

Hey Kevin, maybe we should also get one of these:
http://www.iloveknockers.com/

juggle50 · « **Reply #30 on:** June 10, 2006, 11:05:18 am »

LOL, yes we definately need to buy one of those after we're done. Yeah, I'm bummed about powermame too. I don't really need it too much for the led features or the GP49 way stuff, but I was really excited about some of the proposed features on the wiki page.

I got my order confirmed and am sending a check today. It will probably take me a little while to complete it as I have some real life junk to deal with, but let's be in contact. I may need a little help with how to use the relay.

Kevin

koolmoecraig · « **Reply #31 on:** June 10, 2006, 05:11:17 pm »

My Q*bert post on here has a bunch of info regarding adding a knocker.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=26333.0

juggle50 · « **Reply #32 on:** June 11, 2006, 03:06:11 pm »

Thanks Cool,

Your cab is great. I too am a fan of "tasteful" mameing. Also, you asked a question about vertical daphne. I'm sure you've probably built your "horizontal" cab by now, but the daphne devs are working on rotational features. It should be ready in the near future.

SirPoonga · « **Reply #33 on:** June 14, 2006, 04:57:24 pm »

Ahhhh, this is why juggle has been PMing me, this thread.

I put a relay in my diagram because I don't know how transistors work. For the purpose it is for I don't think the delay will be that bad, this isn't exactly a split timing thing.

I've been wanting to look at powermame to see how it triggers the knocker. I've written the code to do it many times

I also want to see how qmame does it but the links on the site have been down for sometime.

I just haven't got around to buying all the parts needed. Since the computer for my arcade cabinet isn't working right now it isn't a priority.

Level42 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 16, 2006, 06:55:27 am »

Quote from: SirPoonga on June 14, 2006, 04:57:24 pm

Ahhhh, this is why juggle has been PMing me, this thread.

I put a relay in my diagram because I don't know how transistors work. For the purpose it is for I don't think the delay will be that bad, this isn't exactly a split timing thing.

I've been wanting to look at powermame to see how it triggers the knocker. I've written the code to do it many times I also want to see how qmame does it but the links on the site have been down for sometime.

I just haven't got around to buying all the parts needed. Since the computer for my arcade cabinet isn't working right now it isn't a priority.

Well, I'm not sure if the trigger pulse that is sent out to the LED by QMAME is long enough to move the relay. I mailed Brad about how long that pulse is and let you know.

I'm working on an improved (safer) solution. Will post here asap

jcroach · « **Reply #35 on:** June 16, 2006, 08:16:19 am »

Quote from: ahofle on May 25, 2006, 07:03:43 pm

Quote from: Level42 on May 25, 2006, 06:47:41 pm
Ahofle: THAT SUCKS !!! Is it fixed in 1.06 ?

Nope it's still broken.
I opened a bugreport on mametesters back when it happened, but I'm sure it isn't a priority for them. I actually did a diff on the source code between v104 and v105 and saw some LED stuff that changed, but nothing that looked obviously wrong to me. I really need to get a source environment and compiler setup.

Does this include the flashing Player 1 start and Player 2 start [Num Lock] and [Caps lock] LEDS

Level42 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 16, 2006, 09:04:12 am »

This is my idea on an improved schematic for the knocker driver. Although I'm an electronics service engineer, I normaly do not actualy design schematics so any help is welcome.

It's basicaly still the same thing Brad and John (from John's Retroarcade: http://www.johnsretroarcade.com/hardware_knocker.asp) designed, but I added the optoisolator because I don't think it's a safe thing to connect the 30 Volts of the knocker power supply to the I-Pac/J-Pac. I know it won't hurt normaly, but if anything goes wrong (wrond wiring, transistor blow up) you could be feeding the 30V into the J-pac's output.

By using the optoisolator, the I-pac/J=pac circuit and the knocker circuit are completely seperated from eachother electricaly.

I think this will work. I already found some optoisolators that can have the 30V on the collector, but need to see what's easily available.

The only worry I have is if there needs to be a current limiting resistor between the emitter of the optoisolator and the base of the darlington transistor.

Anyone ?

SirPoonga · « **Reply #37 on:** June 16, 2006, 10:03:06 am »

Quote from: Level42 on June 16, 2006, 06:55:27 am

Well, I'm not sure if the trigger pulse that is sent out to the LED by QMAME is long enough to move the relay. I mailed Brad about how long that pulse is and let you know.

4 to 5 qbert clock cycles on my machine, assuming he is sending the signal on the state changes in the driver.
One could use a timer in mame to activate the the knocker to.

ahofle · « **Reply #38 on:** June 16, 2006, 11:15:26 am »

Quote from: jcroach on June 16, 2006, 08:16:19 am

Quote from: ahofle on May 25, 2006, 07:03:43 pm
Quote from: Level42 on May 25, 2006, 06:47:41 pm
Ahofle: THAT SUCKS !!! Is it fixed in 1.06 ?

Nope it's still broken.
I opened a bugreport on mametesters back when it happened, but I'm sure it isn't a priority for them. I actually did a diff on the source code between v104 and v105 and saw some LED stuff that changed, but nothing that looked obviously wrong to me. I really need to get a source environment and compiler setup.

Does this include the flashing Player 1 start and Player 2 start [Num Lock] and [Caps lock] LEDS

Yep, that's exactly what's broken.

SirPoonga · « **Reply #39 on:** June 16, 2006, 12:21:39 pm »

Actually, thinking about it, even though the solenoids are rated 27V doesn't that mean it takes 27V to trigger them? So 30V is probably safe for them. All you are doing is powering up a coil of wire to make an electromagnet. I know someone recently asked me if a resiter is needed to knock 30V down to 27V. This isn't a LED that will burn out quicker, just an electromagnet.

Level42, I like that design. If you find the right parts I would probably go with that. It would be a fast mechanism to.


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