The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: shateredsoul on December 15, 2010, 02:29:56 pm
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http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2010/12/09/high-expectations-of-a-threadbare-team/ (http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2010/12/09/high-expectations-of-a-threadbare-team/)
the positive side is that they're requesting new blood to become involved in the project.
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im new to mame.. but after reading the blog. i see there is a lot of drama. probably drama the devs do not need.. but thats typical in any public project.
hope things work out for the best. i did not realize there were that many gambling games to emulate. i guess i fail at gambling.. laughs.
new blood is always helpful. and hope for the best for the continue development of the project.
im happy that they were able to save as many games as they have. looking at the list. iv not heard of majority of them.. i fail at being a gaming nerd it would seem too.
rock on mame.
your patron ( even if I am a fail laughs )
chris.
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Aren't we eagerly awaiting Pac Man Battle Royale?
;D
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I don't see how they got gambling games mixed into there... those really aren't arcade games.
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"reap the benefits of being part of MameDev"
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Galaga and Mortal Kombat 2 are already emulated. Nobody cares about MAME anymore.
Lol
As I said in another thread, All I would like to see in the near future are the circa 93'-99', Saturn, PSX, N64, Dreamcast-based boards (but especially Saturn/PSX) with all the 3D fighters, shooters, racers. Sega Model 2, Model 3, Naomi, Midway V Unit, Namco System 22, and System 11 etc.
The Virtua Fighter, Daytona USA, Tekken, Ridge Racer, Cruis'n USA era was the last true wave of arcade hits. They gotta get these emulated before throwin in the towel on the MAME project.
I'm very sad to hear this news anyway but I think there is huge enthusiasm for MAME emulation still out there and I have faith the project could live on. I'm sure if they get the word out they can find dozens of young, talented programmers to take this up.
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"reap the benefits of being part of MameDev"
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Galaga and Mortal Kombat 2 are already emulated. Nobody cares about MAME anymore.
Do you do anything here but troll, seriously?
Thought not.
Attitudes like this are half the problem. There is a LOT to do, and a lot people still ask about. New people need to get involved if most of it is to get done. Those 8 year old shooters that were just added ended up multiple with 25+ page threads about them on some forums. Narrow minded attitudes help nothing. I'm currently fixing another, much older shooter from IREM, and there are threads all over the place asking when that's going to be fixed too.
I'll continue to work through stuff with the devs who are still active, however it's not realistic that we can do everything, it's 5am now and I've been up all night trying to fix some issues with the Taito game you can see on my site, but with little progress. That's how much work there still is to do.
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Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.
Very Ironic quote coming from the kid who thinks +20yrs of Arcade fans from ages 6 to +35 do not represent the majority of mames user base.
According to Haze, the majority of mame users are Xbox modders from his generation. LOL And, he says this on a Build your Own controls site! Classic. :laugh2:
Gota love the youngens, who think the world revolves around them and them alone.
heh
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Well, here we go.
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I'm interested in hearing more about mame dev and what games are getting worked, not about accusations about who thinks which generation of gamers want etc. Everyone has their interests, if someone gets involved in mame and loves 90s games and that's all they work on that's fine by me.. it's their time and choice.
Anywho, so who's going to volunteer to be on the mame team? ::)
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Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.
Very Ironic quote coming from the kid who thinks +20yrs of Arcade fans from ages 6 to +35 do not represent the majority of mames user base.
According to Haze, the majority of mame users are Xbox modders from his generation. LOL And, he says this on a Build your Own controls site! Classic. :laugh2:
Gota love the youngens, who think the world revolves around them and them alone.
heh
Oh no, we aren't going to hear the sob story about how you are too stupid to program again are we? Otherwise, of course you'd help out...
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I'm interested in hearing more about mame dev and what games are getting worked, not about accusations about who thinks which generation of gamers want etc. Everyone has their interests, if someone gets involved in mame and loves 90s games and that's all they work on that's fine by me.. it's their time and choice.
Anywho, so who's going to volunteer to be on the mame team? ::)
Yeah, my point was just that if people are going to go around saying 'MAME is done because 2 games are emulated, nothing else matters' then it's not really greatly encouraging, or an accurate reflection of how things are, and the sheer amount of work that DOES need doing. There are still major platform drivers in need of a complete overhaul, the amount of bugs in the Taito F3 and Konami GX implementations show this, and in both of those cases an entire audio DSP is unemulated, so they don't even sound that close to the original. Nobody (to my knowledge) is working on any of that despite them being major platforms with important games. Even somebody who isn't a perfectionist can tell you they have a long way to go. To say MAME is done, or even to say the important games work perfectly, is far from the truth. There is room all over the project for somebody to come in and make big improvements.
I see X2 has come to troll as well, rather than actually taking this in and seeing exactly why it means nobody is going to make the changes he wants.
between them pinballjim and X2 really do make this a hostile and unwelcoming place to post.
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Who would we need to talk to if we wanted to get involved? I would maybe be interested at some point, but am pretty busy at the moment. Looks like Haze?
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Haze wrote that article, and while I'm not sure of how he currently works with the team, I think he'd be a good foot into the whole project.
And yeah Haze, the regulars really are just here to troll. If you ignore them, they'll go away... maybe... one day...
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between them pinballjim and X2 really do make this a hostile and unwelcoming place to post
Really? I actually laughed when I read that. Cmon, dont you think youre over exaggerating just a wee bit? First of all, he is kidding, cmon now, if you cant take a joke like that then damn, maybe you SHOULDNT be on these forums. It really bugs me when people cant take an obvious joke. Especially on an internet forum dedicated to video games. Old ones.
Does it really matter in the big scheme of things if some games dont get emulated and MAME is done with? Is it going to cure cancer? Jesus. They are games. Everyone pretty much has everything they want anyway. The reason why no big names are involved with the MAME project, is because there is no money involved. Someone will come along (such as yourself) and help it along because they are passionate about it. Its not like it cant be started up again even after most of the original developers are off the project.
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A link to this has been posted on Reddit. (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/emv67/mame_is_dying_and_needs_your_help/)
Edited for better link.
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I thought jim's comment was pretty funny as well. :dunno
pinballjim is our resident "cranky old guy on the porch": He says whatever he feels like, and it probably is offensive if you took it seriously, but does that matter? If you can't grow some thick skin, just ignore him.
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Exactly my point Vigo, thank you. :cheers: If Haze doesnt know that is how PBJ is, then he obviously doesnt frequent the forums that much anyway.
Uh oh. Its getting kinda hostile in here. My post might get into an altercation with another post. I better go.
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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so.. this means we'll be getting taito type x 2 games on there when? Lol j/k :D . I realize there's a lot to do, but I appreciate whats been done so far. It's very impressive when you think about how this one piece of software can emulate so many games. Even if they aren't perfect, without a comparison running next to it it feels real to me.
I'd honestly be happy to see naomi and model 3working on there someday. I now realize why I gut jumped on when I asked that on the mame forums, so for now I'm just waiting for the demul and makaron guys to make more progress.
I probably won't ever be able to contribute anything in my life, and can't ... wait, ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- I'm going to die someday. Screw mame! *runs outside*
Anyways.. I will contribute $$ when I have a real job. I just don't want that $$ to go toward more boards, I'd rather it go to the devs or buy something for the devs as a thank you. There's enough boards and pcbs and decapped whatevers to last a while. Use that cash to help out devs who have been around a while or to pay old devs who are no longer around to work on a specific project. It'd be great if I could have a say in where that $$ goes. I.e. wow, I'd like to donate my cash to whoever works on perfecting sega model 2 stuff.
Then again some people lose motivation once a hobbie becomes more like a job. oh well.
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Exactly my point Vigo, thank you. :cheers: If Haze doesnt know that is how PBJ is, then he obviously doesnt frequent the forums that much anyway.
Uh oh. Its getting kinda hostile in here. My post might get into an altercation with another post. I better go.
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
I hate you!
*edit* ok I don't really hate you
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Haha see, that was funny. You know why? I know how to take a joke. ;D
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1. MAME does everything I could ever want it to
2. The MAME license is restrictive
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Narrow minded attitudes help nothing.
Very Ironic quote coming from the kid who thinks +20yrs of Arcade fans from ages 6 to +35 do not represent the majority of mames user base.
According to Haze, the majority of mame users are Xbox modders from his generation. LOL And, he says this on a Build your Own controls site! Classic. :laugh2:
Gota love the youngens, who think the world revolves around them and them alone.
heh
Oh no, we aren't going to hear the sob story about how you are too stupid to program again are we? Otherwise, of course you'd help out...
Lucky for you 1 inch death punches can't be sent through the mail! :dizzy:
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Who would we need to talk to if we wanted to get involved? I would maybe be interested at some point, but am pretty busy at the moment. Looks like Haze?
The source would be the place to start. Find something you can fix, and fix it properly (not with hacks) and generally keep doing that sort of thing.
The good thing about MAME (and emulation in general) is that other pieces of the source are often a great reference, and help with fixing things. Hardware tends to be quite logical, and often follows common design patterns.
The compile process etc. is made as easy as possible to help allow newcomers to contribute easily, and in general if you have specific questions about a driver / piece of code then they can be answered by the dev team.
At the end of the day it's mostly about initiative and understanding how the hardware should work, the actual MAME code (that you'll actually need to change) is for the most part straightforward as long as you have some programming experience. Pick something you want to have a shot at fixing, weigh up how realistic it is (if it requires new ROMs, or actual hardware tests then it's harder) and once you've found something that seems realistic, take a stab at it. That's how I ended up getting involved, and the same for all the devs who have come and gone really.
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2. The MAME license is restrictive
The only real restriction beyond the license on which it's based is that it can't be used for commercial purposes.
Beyond that the license is very fair and open, and some parts of the code even lift that restriction if it's felt there is real benefit in doing so (the CHD support code for example)
If you're going to get anal because it's not a true 'Open Source' license, so be it, but as far as the team are concerned it's an open project; the dev team simply don't want somebody bundling it up and selling it (and at the end of the day, that's better for everybody, because it means people doing ports aren't just going to take buggy MAME code and release it as a commercial product when maybe they could have done a better job actually porting something, or doing their own research with actual help from the original manufacturers. The MAME code is also not optimized for low-end systems, so ports not using the MAME code will run better too) The MAME team claim NO ownership over the information discovered however, you can use the findings (which is the bulk of the work) however you want, they're facts, not something you can claim ownership of.
The rest of the so-called 'license' issues are merely requests from the developers to not do things (like removing the nag screens) because it creates too many issues as far as bug tracking and the like are concerned because people aren't properly informed of the emulation state with those screens gone. This is just a matter of common sense and respect for the wishes of the development team.
Saying that the MAME license is restrictive is quite frankly, a myth, it's just something people are using to attack the project in the same way they did with Mahjong games in the past, saying that the devs only care about those.
You've only got to open up something like the FreeDo (3d0 emulator) license to see what restrictive is, they more or less claim that if you even look at their code, they own the right to be credited for anything you ever do even if you don't use a single line of their code.
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The only real restriction beyond the license on which it's based is that it can't be used for commercial purposes.
The dev team simply don't want somebody bundling it up and selling it (and at the end of the day, that's better for everybody...
This restriction is pretty huge, and I think it is quite a turnoff for potential developers. In general people like to get paid for work. That's what this comes down to, right?
People cannot port mame to be used in an iPad app. This would be totally legit.
I can't use MAME at a school fundraiser without feeling bad (I understand the ROM issue, let's put that aside for now).
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The only real restriction beyond the license on which it's based is that it can't be used for commercial purposes.
The dev team simply don't want somebody bundling it up and selling it (and at the end of the day, that's better for everybody...
This restriction is pretty huge, and I think it is quite a turnoff for potential developers. In general people like to get paid for work. That's what this comes down to, right?
People cannot port mame to be used in an iPad app. This would be totally legit.
I can't use MAME at a school fundraiser without feeling bad (I understand the ROM issue, let's put that aside for now).
I don't think you would find any emulator developer who would agree with you. Plus, people are porting mame.. what you talking about? It'x on xbox, dingoo, psp, and other platforms.
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I don't see that as being a restriction at all. MAME has always been free and built by people that were/are willing to give up their time freely so you and I can play games. If they commercialized it at this point, someone would be profiting on all those hours from all those people. That was never the intent. This is a free program coded by generous people and it's come to the point where some vocal individuals have discouraged the team. Instead of bitching about what has/has not been done, people should instead be saying thank you for the progress so far. IMHO, MAME should go underground and stop releasing to the public. Then you'll see all sorts of people wanting to get involved.
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As I've said elsewhere
a) 90% of the work is the reverse engineering. It can take months, sometimes even years and cost a great deal of money in figuring out.
b) The code that is a result of that can take 5-10 minutes to write*
MAME is giving you a) for free
MAME is saying, you can use b) however you want, just not for commercial purposes.
If working on an actual commercial project you should be pushing for the original manufacturer to give you a) (because an original reference manual / material is better than MAME or at least would complement it)
in which case you wouldn't be using b) anyway
However, MAME makes a) available for free, despite it being 90% of the work, because obviously in some cases the original material simply isn't available and we don't want to hinder people, nor would it even seem fair to try and claim ownership over facts we discovered.
Do you really want to see all ports released on consoles etc. as 0 effort straight ports of the exact code in MAME, bugs and all, because it was cheaper and easier? Asking people to do their own implementations at least makes them think about what they're doing rather than rushed, buggy direct ports which aren't optimized for the target hardware at all.
In the case of iPad apps, many OSS licenses are incompatible anyway. Any that requires the source release is incompatible, which is a key part of most of them, and an important part of MAME. This isn't a restriction, this is about keeping the project open, and unrestricted. Do you want DRM laden versions of MAME, tied to a single platform, which only run specific ROMs? Of course not, it's an open _unrestricted_ project.
As for MAME at charity events, you say you don't care much about the ROM issue, but in a public place that should be just as much of a concern.
* this is why support for games in other projects often appears so quickly after MAME has emulated them, the team have done the hard work, the implementation is trivial.
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Haze, the key to getting things done and not getting demotivated by the great unwashed masses (wait, what? unwashed? How about uninformed and impatient masses) is to stay off the forums. Don't read the nonsense. People can be vocal but they don't always represent reality.
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Haze, the key to getting things done and not getting demotivated by the great unwashed masses (wait, what? unwashed? How about uninformed and impatient masses) is to stay off the forums. Don't read the nonsense. People can be vocal but they don't always represent reality.
That kinda goes against my principals of keeping people informed about the project and goings on (which in turn, can help get them involved)
It's the only angle on which I can agree that MameDev sometimes seem elitist, like they feel they don't have to talk to people, explain things, or help people understand what's really going on. I try my best to make sure that isn't the case, and that (as long as people don't ask the same question over and over, expecting the answer to change) good, informative answers are given, that help people understand how things work.
Right now the only 'official' way to contact MAMEdev is through a simple form on the homepage, you have no real knowledge of who is going to read what you've said, when they're going to read it, or if it's even the right type of thing to post. Likewise even if you do get a reply, nobody else benefits from it. Public discussion is there for anybody else to read, and learn from, which can be both interesting, and benefit the project as a whole.
I find the current system to be very cold, and almost makes the team seem unapproachable, and distant. When you're trying to find new contributors, that isn't always beneficial.
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A link to this has been posted on Reddit. (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/emv67/mame_is_dying_and_needs_your_help/)
Edited for better link.
Front page. Well done.
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Haze, the key to getting things done and not getting demotivated by the great unwashed masses (wait, what? unwashed? How about uninformed and impatient masses) is to stay off the forums. Don't read the nonsense. People can be vocal but they don't always represent reality.
That kinda goes against my principals of keeping people informed about the project and goings on (which in turn, can help get them involved)
It's the only angle on which I can agree that MameDev sometimes seem elitist, like they feel they don't have to talk to people, explain things, or help people understand what's really going on. I try my best to make sure that isn't the case, and that (as long as people don't ask the same question over and over, expecting the answer to change) good, informative answers are given, that help people understand how things work.
Right now the only 'official' way to contact MAMEdev is through a simple form on the homepage, you have no real knowledge of who is going to read what you've said, when they're going to read it, or if it's even the right type of thing to post. Likewise even if you do get a reply, nobody else benefits from it. Public discussion is there for anybody else to read, and learn from, which can be both interesting, and benefit the project as a whole.
I find the current system to be very cold, and almost makes the team seem unapproachable, and distant. When you're trying to find new contributors, that isn't always beneficial.
Hey, your approach is appreciated, you are absolutely right that the team can seem very distant. It's good to see that you are making way to change that! :cheers:
I think Ray is just hitting on that you are probably taking a few comments pretty seriously and that can be disheartening for you when you are putting in a lot of work. We are not really trollers or MAME abusers on this board. It's just a little "shop talk" and we unapologetically say what we want around here. If it so happens that there are complaints or joke about MAME, thats how it goes. Its probably just a sign that you are right about better communication being needed.
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"The whines of the few do not outweigh the accolades of the many, or the one" or something along those lines :)
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"The whines of the few do not outweigh the accolades of the many, or the one" or something along those lines :)
:stupid
And DillonFoulds is a troll and should get offa my lawn! :bat
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I'm interested in hearing more about mame dev and what games are getting worked, not about accusations about who thinks which generation of gamers want etc. Everyone has their interests, if someone gets involved in mame and loves 90s games and that's all they work on that's fine by me.. it's their time and choice.
Anywho, so who's going to volunteer to be on the mame team? ::)
Yeah, my point was just that if people are going to go around saying 'MAME is done because 2 games are emulated, nothing else matters' then it's not really greatly encouraging, or an accurate reflection of how things are, and the sheer amount of work that DOES need doing. There are still major platform drivers in need of a complete overhaul, the amount of bugs in the Taito F3 and Konami GX implementations show this, and in both of those cases an entire audio DSP is unemulated, so they don't even sound that close to the original. Nobody (to my knowledge) is working on any of that despite them being major platforms with important games. Even somebody who isn't a perfectionist can tell you they have a long way to go. To say MAME is done, or even to say the important games work perfectly, is far from the truth. There is room all over the project for somebody to come in and make big improvements.
I see X2 has come to troll as well, rather than actually taking this in and seeing exactly why it means nobody is going to make the changes he wants.
between them pinballjim and X2 really do make this a hostile and unwelcoming place to post.
PBJ is an alright guy dude
X2.... is getting better
PW79 however is awesome ;D
Anyway more games would be good, if I knew how to program I would help.
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Times like this make me wish I paid more attention in my high school Visual Basic class lol.
Haze is absolutely right though. I do love MAME as it is now, but I'd hate to watch this great project die so soon. I do believe there is still a lot of progress that can be made.
MAME team refuses to be open about development or communication when they are in desperate need of new, enthusiastic blood and creative minds.
I won't complain cus I'd rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. I can't program, but I"ll do what I can to spread the word to anyone interested in gaming and programming.
My fellow hobbyists of BYOAC, ask not what MAME can do for you, ask what you can do for MAME!
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Haze, the thing is, you often....er, sometimes....seem to come across as some soft porn combination of David Foley and Xiaou2. Ardence is great. Religious zeal, not so much. (How you have the time to do all you do, and respond to this topic here and your blog, no less at the lengths you do, is impressive.)
In any case, what will happen to mameworld if the projects ends up really tanking?
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Mame isnt going to get much further without money. Not merely for buying up the remaining PCBs... but to actually pay people to develop things that nobody would care to spend time on otherwise.
Id mentioned it before... and it got shot down. Then later, the Devs said it would be a good idea. Yet, there has been no action to date.
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Mame isnt going to get much further without money. Not merely for buying up the remaining PCBs... but to actually pay people to develop things that nobody would care to spend time on otherwise.
Id mentioned it before... and it got shot down. Then later, the Devs said it would be a good idea. Yet, there has been no action to date.
and I've told you before, aside from the type of core changes you're asking for paying people won't help.
you could gather up the worlds best c / c++ programmers, and pay to work on MAME, but all you're likely to see are architecture changes, and reworking of the existing code. You could get them to rewrite the emulator from the ground up but without actually improving the emulation or documentation of anything.
The reverse engineering and discovery of new things (which is where the real value of MAME lies, and is 90% of the work) is a completely different skillset, and is a complete unknown, and not something you can just pay people to work on. They wouldn't know where to start. It takes self-motivation, and *enjoyment* of the challenge of reverse engineering the stuff as well as making reasonable assumptions to understand how how hardware would probably work in order to make progress.
As I've explained in a reply on my blog, there is a huge gulf between people writing code for MAME with commercial intent, and the type of devs needed to actually advance the project. For a project with set goals 'we need a module that does X/Y to these exact specs' then paid / hired hands work. For a project like MAME you're dealing more with real world cases, having to handle things where even if you have documentation (CPUs, Sound chips etc.) there are huge holes in the documentation, and the only way to understand them is by extensively studying the behavior of the games and making educated guesses.
The actual code for the drivers is trivial, and takes up 5% of the time. The actual understanding of everything in order to write that code is the main challenge. That's why within 5 minutes of MAME emulating something it's very easy for somebody to port the drivers to FinalBurnAlpha in under a day, even if it's taken 10+ years to figure out how to emulate the game in the process.
Having worked with people in the industry most of them see the work done in MAME as some kind of black magic. They wouldn't know where to start with the whole reverse engineering thing, and are just glad that somebody has figured all of this out for them.
Take the example of the guy who helped port SpyHunter ( http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx (http://www.ppl-pilot.com/mame.aspx) )
A lot of people will probably just complain that it's a poor effort (I think he did an admirable job when you consider the constraints put on him by the publisher, and target platform), but what I want to focus on is the techniques. He basically brute-forced the maps and graphics out of the game via MAME. In reality, MAME, with it's integrated debugger and open code could easily have been used to figure out, from the original game code, how the maps were drawn and where the data was stored in rom. Start by logging writes to video ram, used for the tiles, then trace it back. You could even trace how the tile data was sourced.
He took the 'programmer' approach, which in the end paid off for his project. The 'reverse engineering' technique would be closer to what Mamedev have to do when studying protection schemes and such, or tracking down obscure bugs in drivers. It's a different mentality, and not really one which mainstream C / C++ trained programmers are suited to, had he been I imagine he could have done the work much more quickly and with a greater degree of confidence (he could have just wrote code that looked up the data and graphics in the rom for example)
The article also highlights what complete and utter d**ks publishers can be, and believe me, if you ever needed evidence that if MAME was allowed for commerical use all ports would just be straight MAME ports, that's it. If the publisher KNOWs they can legally use MAME they'll give the developers a budget of 0, and just tell them to port MAME. That wouldn't be good, for anybody. As the article also point out, some developers choose to rip it off anyway (the code from a previous release he was given), but that's a risk some of the bigger, more legitimate ones wouldn't take (or if were alerted to, would pull the product, it's happened before with other software)
As for Mameworld. Mame existed before Mameworld, Mame will exist after Mameworld should it die one day. The information in the project is safe as long as you can still keep a copy and download things to a machine you actually own.
Money will get chips decapped, Money will purchase boards and equpiment needed for testing and reference. Money won't speed up the actual progess of understanding the hardware. We picked up a Gals Panic 2 for under $10 to study, but finding time to study it, and work with the hardware to understand how it communicates with the protection, the secrets of the protection and then actually UNDERSTAND them and the results of sending random values to a black box, and then know what else to throw at the board to find out more isn't so easy, and isn't a task for somebody who is a pure 'modern' programmer either. In many senses this part of emulation is a specialist skill, especially when you consider the goals of MAME, unlike commercial ones, are to understand things and do things properly rather than hacking things up to get one game playable and shipped for a compilation. It's not really the type of skill you can just 'buy' or pay to learn, the only really way is to take part in it yourself, by contributing to emulation software!
"Most good programmers do programming not because they expect to get paid or get adulation by the public, but because it is fun to program."
- Linus Torvalds
I think this quote is true of MAME to this date. I also think this mentality is changing, which won't be healthy for any open projects. The reason I've always been an active part of the team is because it's FUN to discover new things, and see how things worked, and to explain it to others. Not because the games are any good, or because there is any financial incentive. The same could be said of all the best devs the project has ever had.
The large number of commercial re-rereleases of emulated games (the ones using emulators that is) has no bearing on the ability of the devs behind them to actually emulate something, merely their ability to take information that is presented to them (MAME) and write code, based on that, more specficially optimized etc. for their target platform. They will be applying hacks where neccessary to keep things smooth (for exmaple, deem emulation of sound subsystems too demanding, so simulate it instead), or dealing with trademark / copyright issues (for example, if they no longer have a license for some music they used) while adding a flashy frontend and bonus content to the whole thing. This is what paid, commercial developers are good at, so luring them to work on MAME would achieve very little.
Paying devs would also result in something of a 'race' to fix things, this is unproductive. It's very easy to 'fix' one case from the point of view of a user, while at the same time adding code so damn-awful it has no place in any project, nevermind MAME. The arguments over payment, with the developer claiming 'it works' and the dev team saying 'but it's completely wrong full of hacks, and bloody terrible' would be unproductive at best. You've only got to look at something like MAMEuiFX where all the 'fixes' that are added are actually just awful hacks. They 'work' but they work by adding specific hack code to each game, and breaking things which are known to otherwise be correct (treating the symptoms, not the cause) This is especially true of the type of fixes you get from people who don't understand the hardware aspect of MAME, which again, is the type of people you're likely to get if you look for paid hands.
You also risk a situation where nobody new wants to do anything for MAME for free, because it starts to seem unfair that some people are getting paid.
Where would you rather see money spent? on actually extracting data from chips to allow improvements to the emulation, or paid developers who would just split the project in 2?
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Take the personal out of it please. I'd rather spend this time with my family than babysitting bad behavior. Multiple threads snipped.
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If I had time I would contribute some of it to MAME. For the new year I'm considering not watching television, maybe that will free up some time.
I would just do save states and stuff like that. I don't have time to contribute another driver like I did with the Galaga tripleship driver I did a couple of years ago.
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"reap the benefits of being part of MameDev"
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Galaga and Mortal Kombat 2 are already emulated. Nobody cares about MAME anymore.
That small sentence really stood out for me too. Please... explain the "benefits" of being a MAMEDev... I'm dying to know.
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Good info in this thread. You know, the biggest issue Haze is that many, maybe even most people(?) don't care about the documentation, programming the right way, no hacks, etc. They just want the games to work, period. I'm not suggesting this is the right way to proceed, but there's obviously two alternative views of Mame and you're in one camp and many (the users) are in the other. If you were to put up a mame version that had Model 2 support running at 60FPS on a single core PC, it would get record downloads and people wouldn't care if it's because of hacks (I know that's not likely to happen, just an example), they just want to play the games. Think of the movie industry. We don't care if Jurassic Park had cool dinos because of CGI effects or practical effects, we just want them to look cool, to work. The same is with software.
You're preaching to the choir. I get that things need to be done right but I do think the average joe just doesn't give a crap. Before the brick is thrown the other way and people call out words like "leech" and "greed", keep in mind when the first mame came out and added multi-emulator support, people didn't care if it was coded properly, they just thought it was cool to run (insert favourite game) and that was that. People only started to care when Mame, due to its size and complexity, became an entity of its own and needed structure to ensure as you say, nothing gets broken and benefits can be made across the entire emulation cores. Structure makes sense.
I wish good luck to the entire mame team/project. I don't believe it's dead but I sure don't think the days of old will come back. That might not be such a terrible thing, we've already been gifted so much and if things slow down, then they slow down.
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To be honest, Mame was complete for me at .84. Mame is all about playing the games than archiving the technology which is part of their original mandate and that Grey legal ROM stance. If they called it quits and stopped emulating games up to a certain year, than I would be more in favor. There is so many machines out there that is not captured properly like old laserdisc technology, or lost games that do end up on ebay from time to time. There is so much in Mame that is buggy, poorly implemented or just ignored.
I see new projects stemming from .84 like CoinOPS for the Xbox, or the up and coming Mame for Android that will reach new admirers. I do not need to buy a $1000 machine to play classics. Classics is what MAME is about.
Haze's post pretty much sums up his Mame's existence. Ever since Aaron replaced him (Aaron is an asset, in any venture BTW) Haze has had this chip on his shoulder, and he likes to take out on the community. Nothing wrong about it, but it is getting old, and it is time to move on.
Haze's comment of his website, is a reflection of his loss of enthusiasm for MAME. Maybe Haze has found a new direction in Mess. Mess definitely needs Haze as he is a brilliant coder, and would be an excellent choice for Lead of the project. I am sure there are many many issues that need fixing, and there is that Laseractive driver waiting to be worked on. ;)
I do not intend any disrespect towards Haze by this post, as I do understand where he is coming from.
Mame threadbare is inaccurate. The resources are there, but not as visible as in the past.
Time to let go Haze. Your baby has grown up and moved on without you.
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"reap the benefits of being part of MameDev"
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Galaga and Mortal Kombat 2 are already emulated. Nobody cares about MAME anymore.
That small sentence really stood out for me too. Please... explain the "benefits" of being a MAMEDev... I'm dying to know.
Groupies.
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:soapbox:
Anyone who says things like "MAME (or insert emulator here) is complete because it plays the games I want!!!" doesn't really under stand MAME or any emulators purpose in general. The idea is to digitally preserve these systems and games as accurately as possible. All of them. Not just the popular ones.
I own many consoles and games spanning from the O2 to PS3, and a Dig Dug board. But I know these will not last forever. Emulation is about preserving these devices as electronics fail with age.
I'm a purist. I support full functioning, hackless emulators. And that is how I have always interpreted the MAME/MESS mission.
Just my 2 cents. And I apologize in advance for typos. I hate posting using a phone.
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If I had any real programming ability I'd hop on board - being self-employed leaves me a lot of time to work on other things. Since I am not a programmer by any stretch of the imagination, is there any work that regular people could help with?
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I see new projects stemming from .84 like CoinOPS for the Xbox, or the up and coming Mame for Android that will reach new admirers. I do not need to buy a $1000 machine to play classics. Classics is what MAME is about.
However what is a 'classic' changes as time goes on. I'm only 28 and I don't reguard Pac-Man as a nostalgic classic game from my past. Know what I think of as classics? Early 90's arcade games. I still grin when I hear 'Let's Go Away' from Daytona USA by Sega. As the years go on, the era of games desired by the typical person looking for their nostalgia fix will shift to what they remember when THEY were younger.
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I see new projects stemming from .84 like CoinOPS for the Xbox, or the up and coming Mame for Android that will reach new admirers. I do not need to buy a $1000 machine to play classics. Classics is what MAME is about.
However what is a 'classic' changes as time goes on. I'm only 28 and I don't reguard Pac-Man as a nostalgic classic game from my past. Know what I think of as classics? Early 90's arcade games. I still grin when I hear 'Let's Go Away' from Daytona USA by Sega. As the years go on, the era of games desired by the typical person looking for their nostalgia fix will shift to what they remember when THEY were younger.
Indeed.. which is why the lack of coders from the more recent generations is a concern.
I think some of it is reflective of the industry. I grew up with my ZX Spectrum, Amstrad CPC, Amigas etc.
This meant I was exposed to coding from a young age, and found it enjoyable. It was accessible, and made learning possible. It gave me an alternative, even when I was 10 I could write 'games' and share them with my friends, and they'd think they were cool. There were worse things actually for sale!
The generation after mostly grew up with Windows and the Playstation. By default Windows doesn't really offer much of a programming environment, and the Playstation (hacks aside) is locked down. Not something you can really learn programming on.
The current generation XBOX360 and iPhone. If you want to develop on the 360 it costs you a subscription (and you can only do C#, although, not hardware level in any way), and if you want to develop on the iPhone (which also requires a Mac), likewise, plus you have to pay Apple every time they decide to update the OS. Is a parent really going to pay for an 8 year old to have access to this, and the PC/Mac you need to develop? of course not.
The first exposure anybody is going to have to programming is probably going to be, at best, some visual basic at college, and most likely because they didn't know what they were getting into. All they're likely to code are lame apps to pass a course, which they'll hate coding, and not want to go any further with. Nobody is going to think what they made is cool. People who learn to program now are generally paying for courses, and end up expecting to be paid for their work. fun, enjoyment and discovery are no longer the primary motivating factors. Nor is there any experience with direct hardware access (everything is through APIs in high level languages) which further limits the skills needed for reverse engineering and emulation. It's just become another 'job'.
I think the locking down, and inaccessibility of modern platforms is a major problem for open source development (and possibly the industry as a whole) moving forward. It's even worse for projects like MAME due to the lack of 'hardware level' exposure, meaning modern programmers have no experience in important areas.
It's interesting to read some of the comments, because there is still work to do on the 'classics' in MAME, the endless lists of 'imperfect graphics' 'imperfect sound' etc. clearly shows that. It doesn't really matter if you're talking about games from the 80s, or 90s, there is still work to be done all over the shop. This is recognized both by people posting here, and the developers. I've spent a lot of time going over drivers (mostly 90s era) and cleaning up / fixing what I can, but burnout is common, and more hands are needed! (hence the post I made in the first place)
Also the comment about MAME leaving me behind is a curious one, if it weren't for the contributions myself and Kale have made over the last year the project would have probably stalled even earlier. It's rather evident that during this Christmas period, when we both have time to contribute a bit more that actual progress is being made again. IN the past week you've got the 2nd generation Cave games, rare Taito classic era 'Rumba Lumba', Fixes to long standing problems in IREM's Fire Barrel, even some (small) improvements to the Seibu emulation which may eventually lead to Raiden 2 working. Olivier has also stepped up with a fix to the sound core used on PGM (which benefits the Cave games) and again, a couple of small steps towards Raiden 2 etc. It's always good to see older devs still contributing when they can.
I wouldn't say I have anything against Aaron, I think to some point he's fighting against the tide (due to the earlier points I make, and general attitudes towards the project) even if I think in some areas maybe he could manage things better. As I've said, the team seems quite cold to outsiders still. Anyway, my point is, I think it's quite hard to make a valid argument that the project has left me and the people I work with behind when the evidence strongly suggests that without our current contributions (which have been lacking in the previous couple of months) the project would be in a worse state than it is.
As for benefits of being on Mamedev, I wrote a post in the comments of the article about this, which should make things quite clear. Basically the point was that some people become involved to just be part of the team, as such get priority access to various resources and direct contact with the devs, then simply abuse this position to request everything they want, without actually giving anything further back even if they clearly have time to do so. From one of the replies in there, it seems that MAME isn't the only project with this problem, and given the source of the reply (the Dolphin devs) it pretty much lays to rest any argument that it has anything to do with the license.
There are still some pretty significant arcade games with major work to do in the emulation. The Seibu stuff is the obvious one (and it's quite embarrassing that some games from the early 90s aren't yet supported, but the protection is *that* tough) but there are also still Taito, Gaelco, Jaleco, Atari, Sega, Nichibutsu and Konami titles from the 80s and 90s as well as many others which just plain don't work yet. These aren't minor 'unknown' companies, and the hardware I'm talking about is still 2D era. That's without bringing the old discrete games into it, which are in a league of their own. MAME is not done, not by a long shot, the underlying emulation of many classic systems still leaves a lot to be desired. It might emulate 'favourite game X' but that's a rather narrow-minded approach.
As for 'most people just care about the games, not about it being accurate' Yes, to a degree that's true, but again, it's something that's becoming increasingly true with each passing generation. Sure, MAME has some hacks where the devs couldn't figure things out (or MAME didn't support what was needed at the time) and I've spent a fair amount of time cleaning them up, and emulating things properly (which often has subtle benefits to other areas of the games which weren't noticed) BUT the mentality now seems to be almost 'the hacks are good'. This again is more reflective of commercial products, and may be a side-effect of the initial problem I outlined in the initial post. In the games industry the goal is to get something shipped, on time, by any means possible. There can be bugs, as long as the user doesn't notice them, there can be hacks, as long as they help prevent the user from noticing the bugs. The desire to do things properly has been lost.
The traditional hobbyist programmer would work for days, and enjoy coming up with a proper, clever solution; that's half the fun. The modern programmer just works towards getting something shipped in a way that the user will believe to be correct. This comes from conditioning, experience, and the learning process.
The problems seem to lie with a shift in culture, both the shift in arcade culture towards home systems, the shift in the openness of home systems, and the shift in which people are exposed to programming. This changes attitudes and priorities, and in the end isn't that good for a project like MAME. It's sad, because this is part of our heritage but the industry of old is a tiny fraction of the huge soulless commercial monster that is the games industry today. In terms of ROM data you can fit pretty much the entire output of the games industry (home and arcade) until 1995 on a flash card in your pocket and to many people these days, it isn't worth much more than that, and never will be.
Part of me would like to hang up my boots, and just move on to other projects, but every time I try to do that I just see the amount of stuff that isn't being done, or the amount of stuff that is being done wrong and the feeling of guilt and responsibility, for not actually taking care of it is too much for me to just abandon everything. It's easy for some people to say I don't do enough, but I do as much as I can. There are limits to my ability tho, and they're going to be hit sooner rather than later. Again, this is why I felt the need to write the post, the project needs developers, with the right skills to continue to take the project forward otherwise progress (which includes fixing of bugs in older emulated hardware) is just going to hit a brick wall.
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I see new projects stemming from .84 like CoinOPS for the Xbox, or the up and coming Mame for Android that will reach new admirers. I do not need to buy a $1000 machine to play classics. Classics is what MAME is about.
However what is a 'classic' changes as time goes on. I'm only 28 and I don't reguard Pac-Man as a nostalgic classic game from my past. Know what I think of as classics? Early 90's arcade games. I still grin when I hear 'Let's Go Away' from Daytona USA by Sega. As the years go on, the era of games desired by the typical person looking for their nostalgia fix will shift to what they remember when THEY were younger.
Thats EXACTLY how I feel. Same age, same words, everything. Except replace my grin when Mega Man said "Marvel Vs Capcom!!!" when you put a quarter in! And many others of course. Hell, I miss that old Ghost Town shooter game with the zombie targets. ;D
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Haze, you're proving my point again. Look at the lengths of your posts in response to... who? Think about that. WHO are you really responding to? Some guys you don't even know, who don't really matter. It's great you want some communication, but don't let yourself get mired in forum arguments THAT DON'T MATTER. I don't it's elitist to seperate yourself from that if it means you won't be bogged down and distracted from what you really want to accomplish with MAME.
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Haze, you're proving my point again. Look at the lengths of your posts in response to... who? Think about that. WHO are you really responding to? Some guys you don't even know, who don't really matter. It's great you want some communication, but don't let yourself get mired in forum arguments THAT DON'T MATTER. I don't it's elitist to seperate yourself from that if it means you won't be bogged down and distracted from what you really want to accomplish with MAME.
Well, you never know who might read it, even if they're just lurking. I may re-read it myself and summarize it into a followup post on my site anyway.
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
Its a major part of the principles behind Mame that the games should be emulated as exactly as possible and using a native resolution (or a close fit with equalized borders) is a major part of this.
When using Direct3D there is no option to turn off stretching, which distorts the image and loses the advantage of native resolution, ie 1:1 pixel mapping. Rather than adding small equal borders to fill out to the nearest available resolution available on the hardware, the picture is always stretched to fit the screen.
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
Its a major part of the principles behind Mame that the games should be emulated as exactly as possible and using a native resolution (or a close fit with equalized borders) is a major part of this.
When using Direct3D there is no option to turn off stretching, which distorts the image and loses the advantage of native resolution, ie 1:1 pixel mapping. Rather than adding small equal borders to fill out to the nearest available resolution available on the hardware, the picture is always stretched to fit the screen.
I agree with Andy!
If MameDevs have lack of time, patience and resources they should concentrate improving the available options to maximize OS compatibility. Most of the nineties kids grew up fed by the software industry therefore weren't stimulated to create games or applications, myself included hence this intellectual crisis. People should simply not troll when they done nothing to help others that are actually working for free, MAME already achieved a legendary status no matter what the future holds for it.
I just hope that Gaelco people provide the decryption code so i could play World Rally 2! :P
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
Its a major part of the principles behind Mame that the games should be emulated as exactly as possible and using a native resolution (or a close fit with equalized borders) is a major part of this.
When using Direct3D there is no option to turn off stretching, which distorts the image and loses the advantage of native resolution, ie 1:1 pixel mapping. Rather than adding small equal borders to fill out to the nearest available resolution available on the hardware, the picture is always stretched to fit the screen.
I think one of those problems is that as well as DirectDraw going modern OS's are doing what they can to get rid of the concept of 'resolution' (or at least the ability to change it to something non-standard) completely.
You've only got to look at current technology which due to it's nature is 'locked' to a single resolution (the native display res) and frequency. If you want things bigger / smaller these days it's done by scaling the graphics, not changing the resolution.
Supporting such things is fighting against the tide, and you might quickly find Linux to be a better option if you want more control over them (although I don't know, it might already be worse there, I can't say I've paid much attention)
Does SDLMame do a better job on Windows?
It's one for Aaron anyway, for the mainline build it's very much his DDraw / D3D video system in there at the moment on the Windows platforms and there have been a lot of complaints about it since it was switched around 0.106 anyway. I don't think he cares much about native resolution stuff either, and there is nothing any other developer on the project can do about this IMHO.
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It's almost if you enjoy griping about the state of mame rather than doing anything to change it.....
:dunno
I think you're missing the point. I am doing something to change it, I'm one of the people who is left still actually doing something.
a) I'm continuing to work on the code, improving drivers and writing new ones
b) I'm making people aware that the project does need new people to contribute
c) I'm keeping people informed as to what progress is made to help them see there is still some cool stuff being done which they could become involved
d) I'm chasing down people to get things submitted when they've reported progress, but never sent anything as this situation can stall development of drivers if other people are relying on that code, or need the changes to make more progress.
e) I'm working with the people buying PCBs to tell them what we need for testing etc. and reference videos in order to fix more bugs.
that's about all I can do. I can't really put a gun to people's head or clone myself to get more done.. quite a bit of it involves thinking about what you've discovered too and how to move further too.
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I see new projects stemming from .84 like CoinOPS for the Xbox, or the up and coming Mame for Android that will reach new admirers. I do not need to buy a $1000 machine to play classics. Classics is what MAME is about.
However what is a 'classic' changes as time goes on. I'm only 28 and I don't reguard Pac-Man as a nostalgic classic game from my past. Know what I think of as classics? Early 90's arcade games. I still grin when I hear 'Let's Go Away' from Daytona USA by Sega. As the years go on, the era of games desired by the typical person looking for their nostalgia fix will shift to what they remember when THEY were younger.
Right here.
I love Galaga, Pac-Man, Asteroids, Donkey Kong, and Space Invaders as much as the next person, but I came up from the early to mid 90s walking into the few arcades left. The Saturn/PSX based games are especially nostalgic to me. Than we'll have a new wave of people interested in MAME that probably wanna see Crisis Zone, House of the Dead 4, Pump it Up, and Police 911 emulated, and I feel REALLY sorry for them. But to say when MAME feels complete or is already running the "best games" is subjective.
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Passion is a huge motivator, I think HAZE has it, hence his long posts reflect it. I myslef am suprised at the ammount of "its good enough" posts. MAME was never about us playing the games, it was about preserving the games the best they could. Of course if we cant play them, I do wonder how far MAME would have went? I do think the "i got mine, who cares about the rest" attuitude is bad. I do understand the money thing, we have went from a country that (long before my time) sent people to die for it, to a country thats catch phrase is "show me the money". Doing something for nothing other than satisfaction and knowing its the right thing to do is not in most peoples train of thought anymore.
I hate to see MAME die or even go dormant, but I cant do anything but put in some contrubtions ( i have)... my programing skill is limited.
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*snip*
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.... seriously?
Haze thank you and chill out, everyone else stop complaining, go play some games, goodnight... and happy holidays!
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I see new projects stemming from .84 like CoinOPS for the Xbox, or the up and coming Mame for Android that will reach new admirers. I do not need to buy a $1000 machine to play classics. Classics is what MAME is about.
However what is a 'classic' changes as time goes on. I'm only 28 and I don't reguard Pac-Man as a nostalgic classic game from my past. Know what I think of as classics? Early 90's arcade games. I still grin when I hear 'Let's Go Away' from Daytona USA by Sega. As the years go on, the era of games desired by the typical person looking for their nostalgia fix will shift to what they remember when THEY were younger.
Classic rock is from the 60s. Classic games are from the early 80s. What you feel nostalgic about is....what you feel nostalgic about.
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
Nuked before it went to P&R.
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
A member here, wpcmame, submitted a so-called 'cleanstretch' patch to D3D which does exactly as you describe. You can even have artwork on the sides in place of the large black borders for vertical games. Unfortunately, it was rejected by mamedev for some reason. Search for cleanstretch and wpcmame here. I agree that this is a really huge flaw in the current rendering system, regardless of whether microsoft wants to 'get rid of the concept of resolution'. It's sad to think people will need to run an obsolete operating system to run MAME at native resolutions.
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
Nuked before it went to P&R.
My post got nuked too. :-\
Well, you're the boss, Saint. Do what you got to do, I respect your call. IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier). But I'm sure P&R flame wars have started from much less.
I'll try to keep my posts "nuke-free" in the future. :angel: Call it my BYOAC Forum New Year Resolution.
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
Nuked before it went to P&R.
My post got nuked too. :-\
Well, you're the boss, Saint. Do what you got to do, I respect your call. IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier). But I'm sure P&R flame wars have started from much less.
I'll try to keep my posts "nuke-free" in the future. :angel: Call it my BYOAC Forum New Year Resolution.
Promoting one's holidays and traditions is/was fine :) Insulting another's holiday/traditions made it P&R material. You were fine Vigo, it just didn't make sense to pull one post and not the following replies.
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
Nuked before it went to P&R.
My post got nuked too. :-\
Well, you're the boss, Saint. Do what you got to do, I respect your call. IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier). But I'm sure P&R flame wars have started from much less.
I'll try to keep my posts "nuke-free" in the future. :angel: Call it my BYOAC Forum New Year Resolution.
Promoting one's holidays and traditions is/was fine :) Insulting another's holiday/traditions made it P&R material. You were fine Vigo, it just didn't make sense to pull one post and not the following replies.
I forgot what I wrote, I didnt insult anyone did I? :'(
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
Nuked before it went to P&R.
My post got nuked too. :-\
Well, you're the boss, Saint. Do what you got to do, I respect your call. IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier). But I'm sure P&R flame wars have started from much less.
I'll try to keep my posts "nuke-free" in the future. :angel: Call it my BYOAC Forum New Year Resolution.
Promoting one's holidays and traditions is/was fine :) Insulting another's holiday/traditions made it P&R material. You were fine Vigo, it just didn't make sense to pull one post and not the following replies.
I forgot what I wrote, I didnt insult anyone did I? :'(
Taking this to PM....
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Hey, what happened to my comments that I put on here? :dizzy:
Nuked before it went to P&R.
My post got nuked too. :-\
Well, you're the boss, Saint. Do what you got to do, I respect your call. IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier). But I'm sure P&R flame wars have started from much less.
I'll try to keep my posts "nuke-free" in the future. :angel: Call it my BYOAC Forum New Year Resolution.
Promoting one's holidays and traditions is/was fine :) Insulting another's holiday/traditions made it P&R material. You were fine Vigo, it just didn't make sense to pull one post and not the following replies.
OK, Understood! I don't like stepping on toes, so I'm glad I wasn't guilty of that. :)
Well, back on topic. I think MAME may be hitting a wall right now, and should refocus away from preservation to rom playability, simply to refuel general interest. MAME has preserved thousands and thousands of games, and everyone here is thankful. As with more modern games, which don't have the same degree of preservation issues, I would be fine with any hacks fixes or modifications to just get them working for the average user on your average computer, even if that means that it could be more work fixing them up correctly in the future. It think there is at least a general impression that MAME has not done much, because no headway has happened on a number of popular titles. From a purist standpoint, I am not saying that obscure games don't deserve to be worked on, but if your focus is geared on giving the users what they want right now (to be able to play these games), I think you will have more general interest from the users in improving MAME.
When the chips are down, this is about MAME's survival. I think it should compromise it's focus for the time being to keep itself alive as a whole. It would be a shame for the project to die out when it has so much value.
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IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier)
I am just now getting around to reading this thread, and so I missed out on the part that got nuked.
Since I started a "Merry Christmas" thread, and I take it that is the one you are talking about, id just like to say that I didnt mean to step on anybody's toes or hurt anyone's feelings by starting that thread, and if I did, I sincerely apologize.
And to quote Forrest Gump, "Thats all I got to say about that."
:)
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IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier)
I am just now getting around to reading this thread, and so I missed out on the part that got nuked.
Since I started a "Merry Christmas" thread, and I take it that is the one you are talking about, id just like to say that I didnt mean to step on anybody's toes or hurt anyone's feelings by starting that thread, and if I did, I sincerely apologize.
And to quote Forrest Gump, "Thats all I got to say about that."
:)
Nothing wrong with Merry Christmas, no toes stepped on :)
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
A member here, wpcmame, submitted a so-called 'cleanstretch' patch to D3D which does exactly as you describe. You can even have artwork on the sides in place of the large black borders for vertical games. Unfortunately, it was rejected by mamedev for some reason. Search for cleanstretch and wpcmame here. I agree that this is a really huge flaw in the current rendering system, regardless of whether microsoft wants to 'get rid of the concept of resolution'. It's sad to think people will need to run an obsolete operating system to run MAME at native resolutions.
Was it outright rejected, or just overlooked?
As I said, that's entirely Aaron's part of MAME, no other dev can really touch it, or accept it, or reject it. Any decisions about that code are his, and his alone. Usually he would at least suggest room for improvement if something is rejected.
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IMHO, it wasn't any more P&R than the Merry Christmas thread, and it wasn't mean spirited (like this thread has been earlier)
I am just now getting around to reading this thread, and so I missed out on the part that got nuked.
Since I started a "Merry Christmas" thread, and I take it that is the one you are talking about, id just like to say that I didnt mean to step on anybody's toes or hurt anyone's feelings by starting that thread, and if I did, I sincerely apologize.
And to quote Forrest Gump, "Thats all I got to say about that."
:)
Nothing wrong with Merry Christmas, no toes stepped on :)
Merry Christmas! :cheers:
I understand why Saint snipped now. It wasn't anything wrong with the topic, nothing malicious, just bad choice in words used at one point. The point of topic was don't be afraid to wish others a Merry Christmas, because they won't be offended. ;)
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Was it outright rejected, or just overlooked?
As I said, that's entirely Aaron's part of MAME, no other dev can really touch it, or accept it, or reject it. Any decisions about that code are his, and his alone. Usually he would at least suggest room for improvement if something is rejected.
I'll have to dig up the original post. It was around the early 0.100 releases if I recall, so a few years back. But I'm pretty sure I remember wpcmame posting here that it was rejected, so he just kept the diff file and manually applied it.
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Was it outright rejected, or just overlooked?
As I said, that's entirely Aaron's part of MAME, no other dev can really touch it, or accept it, or reject it. Any decisions about that code are his, and his alone. Usually he would at least suggest room for improvement if something is rejected.
I'll have to dig up the original post. It was around the early 0.100 releases if I recall, so a few years back. But I'm pretty sure I remember wpcmame posting here that it was rejected, so he just kept the diff file and manually applied it.
It might have been because the rendering code was already going / planning on going through a mass overhaul at around that time then? External changes during periods of mass transition often can't be accepted for practical reasons. Either that, or the way in which it was coded was deemded to be too gross / redundant by whoever was in charge of that part of the code at the time.
I do driver work, and as long as the framework of MAME works for me then I'm happy enough with it. Really, if you want to see changes to that side of things there is no point at all in asking me about it, you'll need to bounce a few emails off Aaron and find out what would be required to have it accepted.
Not trying to be difficult with you here, but your problem is similar to that of X2, you want interface / core changes and there is only really one person who can make / judge them. I do the emulation programming, which is a completely different part of the project to the UI.
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Found it....according to wpcmame, Aaron says it "wasn't necessary".
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.msg690001#msg690001 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.msg690001#msg690001)
Here are some more posts on this topic:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56050.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56050.0)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70539.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70539.0)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.0)
It's really too bad that this problem has already been solved several years ago but hasn't been integrated into MAME.
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Found it....according to wpcmame, Aaron says it "wasn't necessary".
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.msg690001#msg690001 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.msg690001#msg690001)
Here are some more posts on this topic:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56050.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56050.0)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70539.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=70539.0)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=67622.0)
It's really too bad that this problem has already been solved several years ago but hasn't been integrated into MAME.
Maybe he just needs to put forward a reasoned argument as to why he DOES think it's necessary then, or get Aaron to explain exactly why it isn't?
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Does it really have to be necessary? There are plenty of unnecessary features in MAME such as CRT-like overlays and filters. While unnecessary, they definitely make MAME much better.
At any rate, this is a good example of a developer willing to make submissions and then being told to justify why it should be accepted, thus driving them away. It's no surprise to me that he would not be motivated to contribute to the project any more. To me, this sort of thing contradicts your call to arms for fresh developers.
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Does it really have to be necessary? There are plenty of unnecessary features in MAME such as CRT-like overlays and filters. While unnecessary, they definitely make MAME much better.
At any rate, this is a good example of a developer willing to make submissions and then being told to justify why it should be accepted, thus driving them away. It's no surprise to me that he would not be motivated to contribute to the project any more. To me, this sort of thing contradicts your call to arms for fresh developers.
Well this area of MAME has nothing to do with me.. there are literally hundreds of programmers who could improve this area, but none have, or their contributions haven't been accepted. Take it up with Aaron. The actual reverse engineering and emulation of hardware is a different area, and the one I'm concerned is stalling.
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One of the reasons for CabMAME is the cleanstretch feature.
It's sad to think people will need to run an obsolete operating system to run MAME at native resolutions.
Requiring obsolete hardware is already a reality. The software side was obviously next.
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Hands up anyone who thinks of Mahjong games when they think classics?
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Hands up anyone who thinks of Mahjong games when they think classics?
Based on the posts I've had on my blog, and the requests we've had for some of them I think if you asked this question on a Japanese forum you'd be flooded with replies.
The early Dynax and Nichibutsu ones especially are considered 'classics' in Japan, and were just as popular, if not more popular than the likes of Street Fighter 2 was over here. There is a reason they made so many of them and near enough every major manufacturer has a portfolio of them. There have been just as many donations made *specifically* to buy Mahjong boards as anything else over the years.
On similar lines, if you asked on a Japanese forum 'Who considers Marble Madness a classic' you'd probably get hardly any replies, because it's an American developed game and they really didn't care for those as much. (A trend which continues to this day, just look how difficult Microsoft found it to break into Japan)
A fairly good example as to what Japan considers 'classic' is when they pay homage to the titles in future games, and how often they copy / imitate them. If you fire up Jaleco's "Game Tengoku - The Game Paradise" (which is a shooter set in an arcade) and set it to Japan mode you'll see that the initial level includes a whole bunch of Mahjong games running in the arcade cabinets in the background. You'll also find hundreds of other games using Mahjong tiles in some form, and even some characters made out of them.
It amazes me that people still try to use this argument to bash MAME, the project, and what gets emulated. It's a global project, representing a global industry, not something tailored to your exact tastes.
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Hands up anyone who thinks of Mahjong games when they think classics?
Based on the posts I've had on my blog, and the requests we've had for some of them I think if you asked this question on a Japanese forum you'd be flooded with replies.
The early Dynax and Nichibutsu ones especially are considered 'classics' in Japan, and were just as popular, if not more popular than the likes of Street Fighter 2 was over here. There is a reason they made so many of them and near enough every major manufacturer has a portfolio of them. There have been just as many donations made *specifically* to buy Mahjong boards as anything else over the years.
On similar lines, if you asked on a Japanese forum 'Who considers Marble Madness a classic' you'd probably get hardly any replies, because it's an American developed game and they really didn't care for those as much. (A trend which continues to this day, just look how difficult Microsoft found it to break into Japan)
It amazes me that people still try to use this argument to bash MAME, the project, and what gets emulated. It's a global project, representing a global industry, not something tailored to your exact tastes.
Don't take this in a rude way, just a question. I honestly don't know how you guys are structured, but if it is the primarily Asia fanbase that considers these endless Mahjong titles of great value, is the development of these titles, the man hours, worked on by a designated Asia MAMEdev team? To me, I would think that a donation to buy Mahjong boards does not relegate that N. America and European support must be doing any further development to the endless sea of Mahjong titles out there.
I also wouldn't think that comparing your everyday Mahjong title with Marble Madness is accurate. I think it would compare much better to video slot machines. There are so many video slot machine games in N. America, and tons of people play them, but there really are not any classics that had the crowds watching on. Mahjong games were more or less your typical gambling games without the payouts.
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Hands up anyone who thinks of Mahjong games when they think classics?
Based on the posts I've had on my blog, and the requests we've had for some of them I think if you asked this question on a Japanese forum you'd be flooded with replies.
The early Dynax and Nichibutsu ones especially are considered 'classics' in Japan, and were just as popular, if not more popular than the likes of Street Fighter 2 was over here. There is a reason they made so many of them and near enough every major manufacturer has a portfolio of them. There have been just as many donations made *specifically* to buy Mahjong boards as anything else over the years.
On similar lines, if you asked on a Japanese forum 'Who considers Marble Madness a classic' you'd probably get hardly any replies, because it's an American developed game and they really didn't care for those as much. (A trend which continues to this day, just look how difficult Microsoft found it to break into Japan)
It amazes me that people still try to use this argument to bash MAME, the project, and what gets emulated. It's a global project, representing a global industry, not something tailored to your exact tastes.
Don't take this in a rude way, just a question. I honestly don't know how you guys are structured, but if it is the primarily Asia fanbase that considers these endless Mahjong titles of great value, is the development of these titles, the man hours, worked on by a designated Asia MAMEdev team? To me, I would think that a donation to buy Mahjong boards does not relegate that N. America and European support must be doing any further development to the endless sea of Mahjong titles out there.
I also wouldn't think that comparing your everyday Mahjong title with Marble Madness is accurate. I think it would compare much better to video slot machines. There are so many video slot machine games in N. America, and tons of people play them, but there really are not any classics that had the crowds watching on. Mahjong games were more or less your typical gambling games without the payouts.
Asia / Japan don't really seem to believe in the open source culture as much unfortunately, so contributions in terms of actual code from that part of the world are more limited. It's clearly a cultural thing, and when you do get Asian / Japanese emulators their approach to emulation is often very different eg. if you look at the NeoGeo CD emulators they've *rewritten* most of the bios code, to avoid emulating it.. In worse cases they will rewrite parts of the game for extra speed, rather than emulating it.. They will integrate the roms in the actual emulator, and encrypt the whole package to stop people reverse engineering it then package the whole thing with a ton of ad-ware so that they can make money of of people using their emulators. Don't get me wrong, there have been contributions from Asia / Japan which have been valid but the cultural differences, and coding standards / practices make them fewer. The *primary* development of MAME has always been European, which is ironic when you consider that only a tiny tiny handful of the supported games originate in Europe. If European devs only worked on European produced games there wouldn't be much MAME at all ;-)
From a 'writing the emulation code' perspective it makes very little difference if you're emulating a Mahjong game or not. The challenges are still the same, the hardware can still be interesting, and they can help fix bugs / improve things elsewhere. The Mahjong games on Psikyo's SH2 based hardware were of great help in fixing the SH2 timers / interrupts which in turn also improved the music in several other games relying on that logic. Improving hardware emulation is always beneficial to the project, and anything that helps that, be it emulation of a Mahjong game, or a console system in MESS is a step forward. The best devs really aren't fussy over the nature of the games they emulate. As I've said before, the role of Mamedev is to emulate, not discriminate, and there is a level of responsibility that comes with that to not simply ignore something because you don't like it.
Mahjong seems to have a bigger role in mainstream Japanese arcades than slot machines do over here. Here slot machines more or less replaced arcade games in many places, in Japan they exist together. I'm not really sure I'd say they were equivalent.
That said, even for slot machines, there are ones people consider to be 'classic'. The original Cherry Master for example is really akin to the 'Pacman' of that genre. It's simple, but to many still iconic, which is why it's copied / rehashed so often. There are still hacks of this very same game being sold on newly manufactured PCBs today, and fresh 'classic' versions are pushed out just as Namco re-release Pacman every couple of years. Overall there is a lot of hatred towards slot machines and the like tho, because many see them as the 'killer of arcades'
For Australia, the early Aristocrat games are considered 'classics' too and have a substantial fan-base.
For a more central European base, Magic Card is another one that regularly gets requested because it doesn't yet work properly in MAME.
Just like any genre, you have a period of games, which are really stripped down to the basics, nothing too fancy, but advanced enough to be functional and memorable.
It's also interesting to see how slot machine mechanics integrate into normal games too. You've only got to look at something like the Casino Night levels in Sonic 2 to see that elements of the whole 'slot machine' culture are iconic enough to end up as a mechanic in a more modern game, even Japanese developed ones. Kaneko's Wani Wani World (a personal favourite) incorporates such elements too.
Pinball games are another example, some people see them all as utterly worthless, others will no doubt be able to name what they consider to be 'classics' in that genre too.
Asking if anybody considers Mahjong games classic on a US centric forum isn't going to give you many answers tho because it's a game heavily tied to Japanese culture, which doesn't translate well outside of Japan.
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Ok... This is just a question for my clarification and is probably a bit OT from the actual development of MAME, but it's something I've always wondered (so please, don't take this as any form of argument or criticism)...
I saw it mentioned again earlier, the idea that MAME is to document old arcade games so that they are not lost to obscurity, but no emphasis is made on their playability... I guess I don't understand that, documenting games that their whole purpose IS to be played and nothing else. It would seem to me like making sure we document classic movies, but not be concerned with actually being able to watch them, just have documentation to keep their memory alive? So like I said, not being argumentative in any way, I am just curious as to why?
-
Hands up anyone who thinks of Mahjong games when they think classics?
Based on the posts I've had on my blog, and the requests we've had for some of them I think if you asked this question on a Japanese forum you'd be flooded with replies.
The early Dynax and Nichibutsu ones especially are considered 'classics' in Japan, and were just as popular, if not more popular than the likes of Street Fighter 2 was over here. There is a reason they made so many of them and near enough every major manufacturer has a portfolio of them. There have been just as many donations made *specifically* to buy Mahjong boards as anything else over the years.
On similar lines, if you asked on a Japanese forum 'Who considers Marble Madness a classic' you'd probably get hardly any replies, because it's an American developed game and they really didn't care for those as much. (A trend which continues to this day, just look how difficult Microsoft found it to break into Japan)
It amazes me that people still try to use this argument to bash MAME, the project, and what gets emulated. It's a global project, representing a global industry, not something tailored to your exact tastes.
Don't take this in a rude way, just a question. I honestly don't know how you guys are structured, but if it is the primarily Asia fanbase that considers these endless Mahjong titles of great value, is the development of these titles, the man hours, worked on by a designated Asia MAMEdev team? To me, I would think that a donation to buy Mahjong boards does not relegate that N. America and European support must be doing any further development to the endless sea of Mahjong titles out there.
I also wouldn't think that comparing your everyday Mahjong title with Marble Madness is accurate. I think it would compare much better to video slot machines. There are so many video slot machine games in N. America, and tons of people play them, but there really are not any classics that had the crowds watching on. Mahjong games were more or less your typical gambling games without the payouts.
Asia / Japan don't really seem to believe in the open source culture as much unfortunately, so contributions in terms of actual code from that part of the world are more limited. It's clearly a cultural thing, and when you do get Asian / Japanese emulators their approach to emulation is often very different eg. if you look at the NeoGeo CD emulators they've *rewritten* most of the bios code, to avoid emulating it.. In worse cases they will rewrite parts of the game for extra speed, rather than emulating it.. They will integrate the roms in the actual emulator, and encrypt the whole package to stop people reverse engineering it then package the whole thing with a ton of ad-ware so that they can make money of of people using their emulators. Don't get me wrong, there have been contributions from Asia / Japan which have been valid but the cultural differences, and coding standards / practices make them fewer. The *primary* development of MAME has always been European, which is ironic when you consider that only a tiny tiny handful of the supported games originate in Europe. If European devs only worked on European produced games there wouldn't be much MAME at all ;-)
From a 'writing the emulation code' perspective it makes very little difference if you're emulating a Mahjong game or not. The challenges are still the same, the hardware can still be interesting, and they can help fix bugs / improve things elsewhere. The Mahjong games on Psikyo's SH2 based hardware were of great help in fixing the SH2 timers / interrupts which in turn also improved the music in several other games relying on that logic. Improving hardware emulation is always beneficial to the project, and anything that helps that, be it emulation of a Mahjong game, or a console system in MESS is a step forward. The best devs really aren't fussy over the nature of the games they emulate. As I've said before, the role of Mamedev is to emulate, not discriminate, and there is a level of responsibility that comes with that to not simply ignore something because you don't like it.
Mahjong seems to have a bigger role in mainstream Japanese arcades than slot machines do over here. Here slot machines more or less replaced arcade games in many places, in Japan they exist together. I'm not really sure I'd say they were equivalent.
That said, even for slot machines, there are ones people consider to be 'classic'. The original Cherry Master for example is really akin to the 'Pacman' of that genre. It's simple, but to many still iconic, which is why it's copied / rehashed so often. There are still hacks of this very same game being sold on newly manufactured PCBs today, and fresh 'classic' versions are pushed out just as Namco re-release Pacman every couple of years. Overall there is a lot of hatred towards slot machines and the like tho, because many see them as the 'killer of arcades'
For Australia, the early Aristocrat games are considered 'classics' too and have a substantial fan-base.
For a more central European base, Magic Card is another one that regularly gets requested because it doesn't yet work properly in MAME.
Just like any genre, you have a period of games, which are really stripped down to the basics, nothing too fancy, but advanced enough to be functional and memorable.
It's also interesting to see how slot machine mechanics integrate into normal games too. You've only got to look at something like the Casino Night levels in Sonic 2 to see that elements of the whole 'slot machine' culture are iconic enough to end up as a mechanic in a more modern game, even Japanese developed ones. Kaneko's Wani Wani World (a personal favourite) incorporates such elements too.
Pinball games are another example, some people see them all as utterly worthless, others will no doubt be able to name what they consider to be 'classics' in that genre too.
Asking if anybody considers Mahjong games classic on a US centric forum isn't going to give you many answers tho because it's a game heavily tied to Japanese culture, which doesn't translate well outside of Japan.
Thanks, Haze. That answered my question. Very Informative! :)
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Ok... This is just a question for my clarification and is probably a bit OT from the actual development of MAME, but it's something I've always wondered (so please, don't take this as any form of argument or criticism)...
I saw it mentioned again earlier, the idea that MAME is to document old arcade games so that they are not lost to obscurity, but no emphasis is made on their playability... I guess I don't understand that, documenting games that their whole purpose IS to be played and nothing else. It would seem to me like making sure we document classic movies, but not be concerned with actually being able to watch them, just have documentation to keep their memory alive? So like I said, not being argumentative in any way, I am just curious as to why?
In terms of what? Performance? You just have to hope that machines catch up, to do things properly sometimes they just have to be slow, unless you start rewriting / not emulating significant parts of the game to avoid emulating some of the hardware. At that point it stops being emulation at all, and becomes more like a port.
In terms of controls? Half of X2s arguments here have been that MAME cares *too* much about this kind of thing, and not enough about the original controls. MAME is designed so that the developers can test it / use it / play it (which is necessary to make sure the emulation works!) on a regular PC. It's made as accessible as possible, and it's only the special use cases that suffer. For most cases in MAME you can fire up the emulator, and play the games with a keyboard / mouse / x360 pad. Most things in MAME are figured out by looking at the behavior of the game when it's running, it's therefore vital that developers actually be able to play through the games, using ordinary hardware in order to find good use-cases that test the emulation code, and improve the overall emulation. You can't tell that you've emulated something properly just from staring at the title screen!
Everything in MAME stands as a decent reference for if somebody else DOES want to do it their own way. Things might not always be 'playable' at 60fps in MAME, or have the exact interface some people want, but MAME is a good reference, and people can do things their own way in their own projects based on the information we're giving them. The DEmul guys are making rapid progress in Model 3 in their own emulator and I'm sure there are many ways in which MAME has helped them make that progress even if the games aren't playable in MAME yet (and are unlikely to run at 60fps even if they did boot properly) Even in the cases where MAME does try to make things easier for PC users, there is sufficient information in the code (IMHO) for somebody to modify something to work with whatever input hardware they need.
If MAME was to take nasty shortcuts, people would just copy the nasty shortcuts, and things would never really be emulated. Going back to the NeoCD stuff, every single emulator I've seen is more of less lifting the same 'avoid emulating the CD controller, bypass most of the bios' hacks that the original Japanese NeoCD emulators did. As a result they're full of tiny hacks for specific games. There is little excuse for this! When the system actually ends up being emulated in MESS (which is really just MAME for everything that doesn't fit in MAME) it will be done properly, and thus provide a far better reference to how things work. If people would then rather copy that it's up to them, but having an emulator that does things properly IS important.
To sum things up, I'm not really sure where you're coming from.
The emphasis is on documenting things, and figuring out how they work, but that by nature implies allowing a level of playability, otherwise the former is also impossible!
The emphasis on documentation just means that MameDev don't consider something to be 'finished' just because it's 'playable' If there is room for improvement (emulating things more precisely/correctly, even if there is no visible difference) then that remains a target. It also constrains MAME to trying to emulate things accurately, rather than the project allowing developers to fix bugs present in the original games, or otherwise 'enhance' things. I'm sure you prefer your Pacman with the kill screen, than if MameDev patched it out ;-)
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Ok... This is just a question for my clarification and is probably a bit OT from the actual development of MAME, but it's something I've always wondered (so please, don't take this as any form of argument or criticism)...
I saw it mentioned again earlier, the idea that MAME is to document old arcade games so that they are not lost to obscurity, but no emphasis is made on their playability... I guess I don't understand that, documenting games that their whole purpose IS to be played and nothing else. It would seem to me like making sure we document classic movies, but not be concerned with actually being able to watch them, just have documentation to keep their memory alive? So like I said, not being argumentative in any way, I am just curious as to why?
In terms of what? Performance? You just have to hope that machines catch up, to do things properly sometimes they just have to be slow, unless you start rewriting / not emulating significant parts of the game to avoid emulating some of the hardware. At that point it stops being emulation at all, and becomes more like a port.
In terms of controls? Half of X2s arguments here have been that MAME cares *too* much about this kind of thing, and not enough about the original controls. MAME is designed so that the developers can test it / use it / play it (which is necessary to make sure the emulation works!) on a regular PC. It's made as accessible as possible, and it's only the special use cases that suffer. For most cases in MAME you can fire up the emulator, and play the games with a keyboard / mouse / x360 pad. Most things in MAME are figured out by looking at the behavior of the game when it's running, it's therefore vital that developers actually be able to play through the games, using ordinary hardware in order to find good use-cases that test the emulation code, and improve the overall emulation. You can't tell that you've emulated something properly just from staring at the title screen!
Everything in MAME stands as a decent reference for if somebody else DOES want to do it their own way. Things might not always be 'playable' at 60fps in MAME, or have the exact interface some people want, but MAME is a good reference, and people can do things their own way in their own projects based on the information we're giving them. The DEmul guys are making rapid progress in Model 3 in their own emulator and I'm sure there are many ways in which MAME has helped them make that progress even if the games aren't playable in MAME yet (and are unlikely to run at 60fps even if they did boot properly) Even in the cases where MAME does try to make things easier for PC users, there is sufficient information in the code (IMHO) for somebody to modify something to work with whatever input hardware they need.
If MAME was to take nasty shortcuts, people would just copy the nasty shortcuts, and things would never really be emulated. Going back to the NeoCD stuff, every single emulator I've seen is more of less lifting the same 'avoid emulating the CD controller, bypass most of the bios' hacks that the original Japanese NeoCD emulators did. As a result they're full of tiny hacks for specific games. There is little excuse for this! When the system actually ends up being emulated in MESS (which is really just MAME for everything that doesn't fit in MAME) it will be done properly, and thus provide a far better reference to how things work. If people would then rather copy that it's up to them, but having an emulator that does things properly IS important.
To sum things up, I'm not really sure where you're coming from.
The emphasis is on documenting things, and figuring out how they work, but that by nature implies allowing a level of playability, otherwise the former is also impossible!
The emphasis on documentation just means that MameDev don't consider something to be 'finished' just because it's 'playable' If there is room for improvement (emulating things more precisely/correctly, even if there is no visible difference) then that remains a target. It also constrains MAME to trying to emulate things accurately, rather than the project allowing developers to fix bugs present in the original games, or otherwise 'enhance' things. I'm sure you prefer your Pacman with the kill screen, than if MameDev patched it out ;-)
Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it. One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware? Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64... More of a hardware guy myself... ;)
Well... Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars... ;)
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Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it. One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware? Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64... More of a hardware guy myself... ;)
Well... Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars... ;)
Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible. Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.
There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.
For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't. A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.
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I'm sure you prefer your Pacman with the kill screen, than if MameDev patched it out ;-)
Haha! I remember when Donkey Kong finally got most of it's sounds emulated correctly and didn't need samples.... and people complained that the running sound of Mario sounded wrong. That was because they'd got so used to hearing the sampled sound in Mame for so long that when it was emulated correctly it didn't sound right to them. But I remember playing the game way back in 1982 and I always thought the sampled sound of Mario was too high pitched. In fact you can still hear the old sampled sound on some of the video clips used for frontends... then when the game starts you hear the difference (assuming your Mame is up to date ofc)
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and it's only the special use cases that suffer.
Special cases, as in losing 100% Arcade ACCURACY.
You can write your +3500 words of BS EXCUSES all you want, but it does not add up.
Its a complete contradiction to the purpose of mame, which is to ACCURATELY PRESERVE these machines for future generations.
Yet, without ACCURATE CONTROLS, the game is NEVER Accurate. PERIOD!
Its not accurate in how the game is balanced.
Its not accurate in how the player experiences these games.
Theres no good reason why these emulated machines should not have ability to hook into CORRECT Arcade ACCURATE CONTROLS. The main reason is of course nothing to do with developer ease. Its to due with Care. Devs Dont care about the machines they are preserving... which is why they dont go the full distance and get things 100% CORRECT.
Which again, is why there is a need for Money to pay developers to care, and get things 100% Preserved. Not half A**ed like it is currently.
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I'm sure you prefer your Pacman with the kill screen, than if MameDev patched it out ;-)
Haha! I remember when Donkey Kong finally got most of it's sounds emulated correctly and didn't need samples.... and people complained that the running sound of Mario sounded wrong. That was because they'd got so used to hearing the sampled sound in Mame for so long that when it was emulated correctly it didn't sound right to them. But I remember playing the game way back in 1982 and I always thought the sampled sound of Mario was too high pitched. In fact you can still hear the old sampled sound on some of the video clips used for frontends... then when the game starts you hear the difference (assuming your Mame is up to date ofc)
I have no doubt that the emulated sound in current mame DK is closer to the original than the samples were - but frankly, it sounds like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. And it sounds like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- whether you're used to the samples or not. It may very well be how a real game sounds, I wouldn't know, but for now I will be using an old mame for this one.
Similar thing with Berzerk. There was a change awhile back that put this whiny sound in the game that I don't like, so I play that on an older mame as well.
If I think about it, there is probably some other stuff in mame that bugs me also, but I've made my point.
HOWEVER in spite of that, I like and respect the devs approach to emulation, and I am all for mame being as accurate as possible! :applaud: If you start making little exceptions for this and little exceptions for that, where does it end? There is always old mame and other emulators if you need them.
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Theres no good reason why these emulated machines should not have ability to hook into CORRECT Arcade ACCURATE CONTROLS. The main reason is of course nothing to do with developer ease. Its to due with Care. Devs Dont care about the machines they are preserving... which is why they dont go the full distance and get things 100% CORRECT.
You seem to think you know everything about everything, and why things are done as they are, despite not being involved at all.
You continue to post this same BS all the time, despite being told by developers of the project why things are done as they are.
You continue to only want to believe your own viewpoint, no matter how far from the truth it may be.
As I've said before MAME is open, the code is there, if you have special use cases for the code, it's there for you to use. I don't have a hundred odd novelty controllers to hook up to the PC to do development with, nor does any other developer. It *is* about developer, and general purpose user ease. People have to be able to use MAME to test it, so that bug reports can be given, and actual emulation of the hardware improved.
This is the truth, regardless of if you want to believe it or not. Compromises are made for the benefit of the development and accessibility of the project only. This has been the case for over 10 years.
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I'm sure you prefer your Pacman with the kill screen, than if MameDev patched it out ;-)
Haha! I remember when Donkey Kong finally got most of it's sounds emulated correctly and didn't need samples.... and people complained that the running sound of Mario sounded wrong. That was because they'd got so used to hearing the sampled sound in Mame for so long that when it was emulated correctly it didn't sound right to them. But I remember playing the game way back in 1982 and I always thought the sampled sound of Mario was too high pitched. In fact you can still hear the old sampled sound on some of the video clips used for frontends... then when the game starts you hear the difference (assuming your Mame is up to date ofc)
I have no doubt that the emulated sound in current mame DK is closer to the original than the samples were - but frankly, it sounds like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. And it sounds like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- whether you're used to the samples or not. It may very well be how a real game sounds, I wouldn't know, but for now I will be using an old mame for this one.
Similar thing with Berzerk. There was a change awhile back that put this whiny sound in the game that I don't like, so I play that on an older mame as well.
If I think about it, there is probably some other stuff in mame that bugs me also, but I've made my point.
HOWEVER in spite of that, I like and respect the devs approach to emulation, and I am all for mame being as accurate as possible! :applaud: If you start making little exceptions for this and little exceptions for that, where does it end? There is always old mame and other emulators if you need them.
For DK It probably doesn't sound perfect yet, I think even Derrick recognizes that, in some ways it does offer a better, more realistic sound but there are still problems with it sounding too muffled. Most samples have been post-processed and enhanced tho, so it's never going to sound exactly like them, and due to the nature of these circuits you're probably never even going to find 2 boards that sound quite the same. It's a complex challenge to get it right, but MAME is always kept up to date with the latest findings, it will get there eventually. Again it's an area only one dev really understands, one on which it's very easy to get burnout from working on it, and one where there are countless games which need attention.
Berzerk on the other hand sounds close to perfect to me.
To give you some perspective, this is why emulating the older discrete games is an insane challenge; the sound systems on these things are just a couple of circuits designed to play sounds. Even a simple game like pong is 10x more complex. Something like Monaco GP is absolute madness.
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I have no doubt that the emulated sound in current mame DK is closer to the original than the samples were - but frankly, it sounds like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. And it sounds like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- whether you're used to the samples or not. It may very well be how a real game sounds, I wouldn't know, but for now I will be using an old mame for this one.
IIRC DK sounded like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in every arcade I saw it in many moons ago. If you are finding, in MAME, that DK sounds all garbled, tinny, slightly delayed, and as if you're barely hearing it through static and what seems like the death croaks of a dozen frogs in a blender, it is likely far closer to original than you might suspect. Enjoy it! Revel in it! This is arcade history and you are experiencing it just as if you dropped a quarter into it in an 80's arcade.
If I think about it, there is probably some other stuff in mame that bugs me also, but I've made my point.
What's your point?
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Theres no good reason why these emulated machines should not have ability to hook into CORRECT Arcade ACCURATE CONTROLS. The main reason is of course nothing to do with developer ease. Its to due with Care. Devs Dont care about the machines they are preserving... which is why they dont go the full distance and get things 100% CORRECT.
You seem to think you know everything about everything, and why things are done as they are, despite not being involved at all.
You continue to post this same BS all the time, despite being told by developers of the project why things are done as they are.
You continue to only want to believe your own viewpoint, no matter how far from the truth it may be.
Pretty good 3 point summary of X2, Haze! ;D
Methinks all this post rage about inaccuracies could be directed to make some good developments to MAME....oh wait...has that been suggested before? :lol
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Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it. One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware? Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64... More of a hardware guy myself... ;)
Well... Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars... ;)
Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible. Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.
There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.
For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't. A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.
How hard is it to implement something like GPU hardware acceleration for increased processing power?
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Which again, is why there is a need for Money to pay developers to care, and get things 100% Preserved. Not half A**ed like it is currently.
This brings to mind a couple of thoughts.
Firstly, "put up or shut up" comes to mind. If you're going to go 'out of pocket' to support the developers, then do so. If you're going to step up and do some programming, then do so. Otherwise, this type of opinion is not appreciated, and is not the consensus of the community at whole.
Secondly, who are you to say that the solutions being provided are 'half assed?' (Oh, and thank you for not trying to fool the spam filter. Do we need to quote the rules again?) Who do you think you are, calling out those who are working - out of personal expense and LOVE for the community and MAME as a whole - to give YOU something more than you had yesterday? You'd be better to say 'thank you', and just step out of their way. Really.
:angry:
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Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it. One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware? Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64... More of a hardware guy myself... ;)
Well... Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars... ;)
Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible. Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.
There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.
For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't. A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.
How hard is it to implement something like GPU hardware acceleration for increased processing power?
In a way which is general purpose enough to benefit everything, flexible enough to be a basis of a cross-platform solution, while still being able to give guaranteed pixel perfect (or at least identical across cards / drivers) output for any given driver, and retaining proper 2d/3d mixing abilities, framebuffer readback, and correct timing etc.? Hard, very hard.
That's why the general talk for it is more akin to doing a 'software renderer' on the GPUs using the shaders etc.
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Thank you for your detailed response Haze, I just wanted to have a more complete grasp on what the perspective was regarding playability, and that answered a lot of it. One question I do have is why isn't it possible to use current 3D acceleration with MAME wile still emulation, maybe just translating the original calls to current 3D hardware? Mind you, I'm not a programmer at all, the last time I tried programming was BASIC on a C64... More of a hardware guy myself... ;)
Well... Computer hardware and cars, love me some fast cars... ;)
Getting modern 3d hardware to accurately represent graphics in a deterministic way (which won't differ from system to system) is near enough impossible. Video drivers are nasty hacked up messy things and hardware implementations + capabilities differ from card to card, it' simply not that reliable.
There has been talk of using the pixel shaders on the next generation of cards to handle rendering, because they should be sufficiently powerful to do so, and give accurate output, however, with nobody to code such a system it's still quite unlikely to happen, and MAME would always have to have a software fallback for systems which don't have the hardware.
For the majority of cases where people think 3D acceleration would help however, it wouldn't. A lot of the system requirements still come from the CPU emulation, which for various reasons is a lot slower in MAME than other emulators.
How hard is it to implement something like GPU hardware acceleration for increased processing power?
In a way which is general purpose enough to benefit everything, flexible enough to be a basis of a cross-platform solution, while still being able to give guaranteed pixel perfect (or at least identical across cards / drivers) output for any given driver, and retaining proper 2d/3d mixing abilities, framebuffer readback, and correct timing etc.? Hard, very hard.
That's why the general talk for it is more akin to doing a 'software renderer' on the GPUs using the shaders etc.
Keep in mind i'm no programmer here, but is it a possibility to only focus on building support piece by piece for only one series of graphics card for the time being? I think there would be a ton of people willing to get an exact graphics card to gain the benefits of GPU acceleration.
I remember on some old PC games, the developers only worked on building support for 1 card. It made me think of this as a possible solution. And if hardware acceleration got buggy on emulation, it could possibly be turned on or off on a game by game basis. I would think that would be no greater compromise on emulation than the frameskip option.
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MAME is cross-platform though. You'd have to do a platform specific build for a specific video card I think. Don't see that fitting in with MAME's origins/direction.
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I'd just like to say that while MAME is not perfect, nothing else in life is either.
I am glad MAME is available for me to use & I enjoy it every time I use it. I don't know how to do programming so kudos to the folks that made it for us to use. :applaud:
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MAME is cross-platform though. You'd have to do a platform specific build for a specific video card I think. Don't see that fitting in with MAME's origins/direction.
I'm not going to argue that. :) I don't know all that goes into getting hardware acceleration for even a single card working, but I am guessing that if it were as simple as I put it, it would have been attempted already. Something like MAME, I can understand how it would be exponentially complex. I don't exactly see how it is a method that destroys the integrity of the emulation, but I live in a simple world that thinks that using a graphics card for this kind of application would only be utilizing the card's processing power.
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Keep in mind i'm no programmer here, but is it a possibility to only focus on building support piece by piece for only one series of graphics card for the time being? I think there would be a ton of people willing to get an exact graphics card to gain the benefits of GPU acceleration.
I remember on some old PC games, the developers only worked on building support for 1 card. It made me think of this as a possible solution. And if hardware acceleration got buggy on emulation, it could possibly be turned on or off on a game by game basis. I would think that would be no greater compromise on emulation than the frameskip option.
Honestly, I'm not sure how it would work. As you might have noticed, graphic cards in general are becoming more general purpose processors which is what I believe MAME is hoping to take advantage of.
It might end up being something like the recompiler system, whereby MAME defines a intermediate 'language' to say how the video hardware works, and then has backends (including a fall-back one in C) to generate code for the target platforms. That would be slower than a specifically crafted solution for a specific card, but would prevent MAME from being tied to a specific piece of hardware entirely.
Of course, this might be why one of the reason the MAME recompiler doesn't give quite such good results anyway, and only a handful of cores have even been converted over to it (SH2 and MIPS) and only 3 backends (aside the C one) exist, those being x86 / x64 and PPC.
It's no easy task, and to get it right will require a lot of planning and a lot of expertise in these areas. If the scope is too limited drivers will quickly outgrow it, and be back to where we started.
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More Excuses.
720 is a prime example.
It used to be able to be controlled with an arcade CORRECT controller. However, nobody else could play it who didnt have a 720 controller, or didnt build their own 720 controller (which IS very possible - "IF" the game supports it in mame).
Just about Any other game in mame can have MULTIPLE controllers to make them work: IE: Marble Madness can be played with:
1) Keyboard
2) Mouse
3) REAL TRACKBALL
But 720? Nope. You have to settle for the most INACCURATE, butchered, and mechanically unsound method of all.
Now, give us a good reason why MAME would KILL 100% Accurate WORKING
controls of a machine, and NOT allow it as an OPTION to the users?
Its called a "SWITCH". Just like any other thing in mame which can be disabled or Enabled. Mame is just too lazy to implement it.. because mame does not care about 100% PRESERVED ACCURACY.
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Firstly, "put up or shut up" comes to mind. If you're going to go 'out of pocket' to support the developers, then do so. If you're going to step up and do some programming, then do so. Otherwise, this type of opinion is not appreciated, and is not the consensus of the community at whole.
Firstly, I HAVE donated to various money collecting ventures to buy Rare PCBs, several times, despite my poor financial standings. You?
I have Also managed to borrow a collectors Discs of Tron artwork from his Pristine working Environmental machine, which I scanned in 4 parts, and hand edited, which ended up in Mame. And THEN, had to scan in like 15 pages of Schematics, and send them via snail mail to a Dev to get the lights to work correctly.
Now, what have YOU done for Preservation sake?
As for the Consensus, plenty of people who would like to play Atari's 720, would easily disagree. And though Im not even a big fan of the game, even I realize the IMPORTANCE of Preserving the ability to Correctly Interface a real controller for 100% Arcade Accuracy.
Plenty of people have complained about various controller options lacking, and over time, many of them have been solved. However, there are still many cases which have been butchered (720), ignored (Shifters), etc.
The Devs dont need a 720 controller to make a 720 controller work. That is Hazes BS line to try to fool the ignorant. 720 used to work fine with a real controller.
All they need to do, is bypass their OCD for 10 seconds, and code in a few switches.
Various Examples:
Arcadecontrols = yes
Arcadecontrols = no
(easy fix for a game like 720, which has only one special controller that isnt available)
ArcadeController1 = Yes / No
ArcadeController2 = Yes / No
(Could be used for multiple controls in a game, without need for individual names)
720controller = Y / N
4wayShifter = Y / N
2wayShifter = Y / N
(Define each control option available at the start, and actually enforce them)
More robust solutions could be implemented, but a simple solution could easily fix the problem until a time when some Dev cares enough to do things better.
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Firstly, I HAVE donated to various money collecting ventures to buy Rare PCBs, several times, despite my poor financial standings. You?
Nothing, actually. I wasn't actually aware this had occurred, as I'm still pretty new here.
Now, what have YOU done for Preservation sake?
Hmm. Again, nothing.
But, here's where we differ: I respect those who have contributed to MAME development, and I don't post like a pompous, elitist, self-serving ass who thinks he's entitled to have his opinions on the direction of the development actually heard and followed. You post like your donations or ideas mean you deserve something in return.
It just simply doesn't work that way. The Development Team doesn't exist to feed your fancy, and they'll do it their own way, regardless of how 'smart' or 'right' you think your ideas are. There's no sense getting all butthurt about it, either. Even if you have the be-all, end-all solution to all of MAME's problems for today and the future, it doesn't mean they're going to build it as you say, or make it work as you say. As it's been said a million times before in this thread, if you want it changed, pick up a programming manual and do it yourself. Nobody's stopping you. Just don't expect the developers to do anything, just because you've kicked in some coin, or scanned in some images.
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Gentle reminder to keep this thread civil. (This post goes to no one specifically) Thanks!
--- saint
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I also think we need to be honest here and realize how many old games were running nearly identical hardware. I imagine once they figured out how to emulate a Z80 and dump a few ROMs they cracked 90% of the games from the 1980s. You don't get that luxury with anything newer.
Actually of newer stuff is running on well documented modern hardware, so it's easier. That's why it's so shambolic that PSX and N64 based emulation in MAME is so bad.
If you think simply emulating a CPU core grants you perfectly working games then you have a lot to learn. There are still games running on a Z80 that have been an incredible amount of work to emulate; see the recent progress on Heavy Unit for example. The processor is merely one component, the rest is 99% undocumented and understanding the rest is pretty much the entirety of the work I've done for MAME over the last 10 years, giving hours to it every day.
Then of course you've got the fact that even something as 'simple' as the Z80 has undocumented behavior, even as recently as last year some things were being fixed on it, chances are nothing relies on those features (and they seem to differ from manufacturer to manufacturer) but again it goes to show that there is always room for improvement. There are apparently some gambling games that DO check manufacturer specific behavior of some of the 6xxx series CPUs as a form of copy protection!
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blah blah blah blah blah..
1) To properly implement something, yes, developers need the controls
2) Aaron would like to keep switches down to a minimum, he's stated this in the past.
3) Again, if you have a special use case, there is nothing preventing you from either changing it yourself, or paying for somebody to change it yourself. Just don't expect Mamedev to do it for you. It's a special case, nothing more, nothing less.
Your expectations of the dev team are _ridiculous_.
Would you expect a deaf person to fix the sound emulation in something? Given what you're saying, I'm guessing the answer is yes, because they could look at the waveforms of course!
Introducing unmaintainable, untested code into the project is suicide.
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Berzerk on the other hand sounds close to perfect to me.
Thanks for your response Haze!
Just to be clear, the whining in Berzerk I'm talking about is this (lifted from MAWS):
- 0.125u9: Update S14001A core [Lord Nightmare]: Improved filtering to be more accurate to the chip, changed internal audio renderer to produce 4 bit sound as the real chip does. Moved filter outside of the main rendering loop into the glue code. Note: With this update, you may hear a whining noise that was not previously present. This is accurate to the chip! The real chip would almost always have an analog filter placed on its output to suppress this whine.
Maybe your soundcard/speakers suppress the whine more, or maybe your definition of "sounds close to perfect" is "accurate to the chip". I'd rather sacrifice accuracy though for sound that I find less annoying. Others may prefer accuracy even if it is annoying, or they may not find it as annoying as I do. It's all personal preference. ;)
If I think about it, there is probably some other stuff in mame that bugs me also, but I've made my point.
What's your point?
I guess I was just saying that I can kinda sympathize with people who feel mame is too accurate because this often introduces stuff we don't like (games needing crazy PC specs being the main gripe). But as I stated, I still think "accuracy" ultimately equals "better" in the long run, even if we don't like it sometimes, because if little hacks are allowed to creep in just to make things run faster or suit personal tastes, it'll end up a being a big mess.
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Maybe your soundcard/speakers suppress the whine more, or maybe your definition of "sounds close to perfect" is "accurate to the chip". I'd rather sacrifice accuracy though for sound that I find less annoying. Others may prefer accuracy even if it is annoying, or they may not find it as annoying as I do. It's all personal preference. ;)
Possibly, I just have a pair of cheap headphones on my dev PC at the moment, which might not be capable of reproducing the sound.
This was as much the case with the cabinet speakers / acoustics. In a noisy arcade you probably wouldn't have a clue where a high pitched whine was coming from, even if one was present, the actual CRT monitors can generate just as much of a whine! (I'm glad my hearing is worse now than when I was younger, because I found some TVs impossible to watch, or even be within 20 meters of for this reason)
There isn't really much MAME can do about this if it is a correct output tho, especially if there are other games that rely on the frequencies output for correct sound reproduction without the whine.
Of course, the benefits of emulating the actual speech chip are quite clear. Previously MAME had a set of samples for Berzerk, they might have sounded nice and had imperfections, but they were for Berzerk only.
Recently both a German set of Berzerk, and the rare prototype Moon War showed up. With only samples for Berzerk these would be have been left without proper speech, and in the case of moonwar it would have been nearly impossible to even record it; only 2 parts of it have shown up, the speech board in the US, many years ago, and a main board (lacking the speech board) in Germany of all places. It's possible they were once part of the only remaining boardset for the game! (the German Berzerk set is wonderful btw, the robots sound so much more intimidating speaking German)
Due to the fact the speech chip is emulated, rather than using samples both these automatically ended up with correct speech support in MAME.
The likes of Gorf suffer from a similar problem right now, the only speech support is through samples, so the foreign language versions simply don't play the correct samples. The German sets of that and Wizard of Wor should also talk in German!
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Hands up anyone who thinks of Mahjong games when they think classics?
Based on the posts I've had on my blog, and the requests we've had for some of them I think if you asked this question on a Japanese forum you'd be flooded with replies.
The early Dynax and Nichibutsu ones especially are considered 'classics' in Japan, and were just as popular, if not more popular than the likes of Street Fighter 2 was over here. There is a reason they made so many of them and near enough every major manufacturer has a portfolio of them. There have been just as many donations made *specifically* to buy Mahjong boards as anything else over the years.
On similar lines, if you asked on a Japanese forum 'Who considers Marble Madness a classic' you'd probably get hardly any replies, because it's an American developed game and they really didn't care for those as much. (A trend which continues to this day, just look how difficult Microsoft found it to break into Japan)
It amazes me that people still try to use this argument to bash MAME, the project, and what gets emulated. It's a global project, representing a global industry, not something tailored to your exact tastes.
Don't take this in a rude way, just a question. I honestly don't know how you guys are structured, but if it is the primarily Asia fanbase that considers these endless Mahjong titles of great value, is the development of these titles, the man hours, worked on by a designated Asia MAMEdev team? To me, I would think that a donation to buy Mahjong boards does not relegate that N. America and European support must be doing any further development to the endless sea of Mahjong titles out there.
I also wouldn't think that comparing your everyday Mahjong title with Marble Madness is accurate. I think it would compare much better to video slot machines. There are so many video slot machine games in N. America, and tons of people play them, but there really are not any classics that had the crowds watching on. Mahjong games were more or less your typical gambling games without the payouts.
Asia / Japan don't really seem to believe in the open source culture as much unfortunately, so contributions in terms of actual code from that part of the world are more limited. It's clearly a cultural thing, and when you do get Asian / Japanese emulators their approach to emulation is often very different eg. if you look at the NeoGeo CD emulators they've *rewritten* most of the bios code, to avoid emulating it.. In worse cases they will rewrite parts of the game for extra speed, rather than emulating it.. They will integrate the roms in the actual emulator, and encrypt the whole package to stop people reverse engineering it then package the whole thing with a ton of ad-ware so that they can make money of of people using their emulators. Don't get me wrong, there have been contributions from Asia / Japan which have been valid but the cultural differences, and coding standards / practices make them fewer. The *primary* development of MAME has always been European, which is ironic when you consider that only a tiny tiny handful of the supported games originate in Europe. If European devs only worked on European produced games there wouldn't be much MAME at all ;-)
From a 'writing the emulation code' perspective it makes very little difference if you're emulating a Mahjong game or not. The challenges are still the same, the hardware can still be interesting, and they can help fix bugs / improve things elsewhere. The Mahjong games on Psikyo's SH2 based hardware were of great help in fixing the SH2 timers / interrupts which in turn also improved the music in several other games relying on that logic. Improving hardware emulation is always beneficial to the project, and anything that helps that, be it emulation of a Mahjong game, or a console system in MESS is a step forward. The best devs really aren't fussy over the nature of the games they emulate. As I've said before, the role of Mamedev is to emulate, not discriminate, and there is a level of responsibility that comes with that to not simply ignore something because you don't like it.
Mahjong seems to have a bigger role in mainstream Japanese arcades than slot machines do over here. Here slot machines more or less replaced arcade games in many places, in Japan they exist together. I'm not really sure I'd say they were equivalent.
That said, even for slot machines, there are ones people consider to be 'classic'. The original Cherry Master for example is really akin to the 'Pacman' of that genre. It's simple, but to many still iconic, which is why it's copied / rehashed so often. There are still hacks of this very same game being sold on newly manufactured PCBs today, and fresh 'classic' versions are pushed out just as Namco re-release Pacman every couple of years. Overall there is a lot of hatred towards slot machines and the like tho, because many see them as the 'killer of arcades'
For Australia, the early Aristocrat games are considered 'classics' too and have a substantial fan-base.
For a more central European base, Magic Card is another one that regularly gets requested because it doesn't yet work properly in MAME.
Just like any genre, you have a period of games, which are really stripped down to the basics, nothing too fancy, but advanced enough to be functional and memorable.
It's also interesting to see how slot machine mechanics integrate into normal games too. You've only got to look at something like the Casino Night levels in Sonic 2 to see that elements of the whole 'slot machine' culture are iconic enough to end up as a mechanic in a more modern game, even Japanese developed ones. Kaneko's Wani Wani World (a personal favourite) incorporates such elements too.
Pinball games are another example, some people see them all as utterly worthless, others will no doubt be able to name what they consider to be 'classics' in that genre too.
Asking if anybody considers Mahjong games classic on a US centric forum isn't going to give you many answers tho because it's a game heavily tied to Japanese culture, which doesn't translate well outside of Japan.
Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work...
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Firstly, I HAVE donated to various money collecting ventures to buy Rare PCBs, several times, despite my poor financial standings. You?
Nothing, actually. I wasn't actually aware this had occurred, as I'm still pretty new here.
Now, what have YOU done for Preservation sake?
Hmm. Again, nothing.
But, here's where we differ: I respect those who have contributed to MAME development, and I don't post like a pompous, elitist, self-serving ass who thinks he's entitled to have his opinions on the direction of the development actually heard and followed. You post like your donations or ideas mean you deserve something in return.
It just simply doesn't work that way. The Development Team doesn't exist to feed your fancy, and they'll do it their own way, regardless of how 'smart' or 'right' you think your ideas are. There's no sense getting all butthurt about it, either. Even if you have the be-all, end-all solution to all of MAME's problems for today and the future, it doesn't mean they're going to build it as you say, or make it work as you say. As it's been said a million times before in this thread, if you want it changed, pick up a programming manual and do it yourself. Nobody's stopping you. Just don't expect the developers to do anything, just because you've kicked in some coin, or scanned in some images.
Sorry, just have to say it... PWNED.
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Wow, such a heated discussion! :o
All I have to say though, is that regardless of how things are run, I'm at least glad mame exists. if it wasn't for mame, I would not have had the drive to build my own arcade cabinet that houses a multitude of these games. Games which I've also went out and bought just to support the saving of these old classics. I know there are some games that I would love to play that don't work properly, but it doesn't really bother me too much, some of them I'm able to find as PC versions, and although they might not be 100% to the arcade originals, I can still enjoy them and remember the good old days. On top of that, if it wasn't for mame, I wouldn't have stumbled upon a ton of games that I've never even heard of that were great classics that I myself have grown to enjoy. Just remember, if it wasn't for mame we probably wouldn't have half the people we have today, working on ways to perfectly emulate arcade game play. Like Andy from Ultimarc, or many of the awesome cabs that I've browsed through on the web. And more importantly, this forum may not have ever existed. Just something to think about :)
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Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work...
You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group.
The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown)
The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned? Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern? You've got Mahjong games to thank for that....
When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too.
The same can be extended to adult games and others. If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom.
The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece. This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work.
Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones. They admit this in an interview somewhere.
Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-)
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Its so funny, the only game I have ever even heard of that you mentioned was Raiden 2. And the Mahjong games of course.
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Well said PBJ. Couldnt agree more. :cheers:
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Its so funny, the only game I have ever even heard of that you mentioned was Raiden 2. And the Mahjong games of course.
I guess that's just representational of the era of games you experiences.
Cyvern is, like Raiden 2, a shooter, and considered a very good one at that
http://www.shmups.com/reviews/cyvern/index.html (http://www.shmups.com/reviews/cyvern/index.html)
(oh yeah, and I fixed the laying issues he mentions in the review with the help of the Mahjong games on the HW too)
Rabbit was one of EAs few forays into the arcade market, it was also released on the Saturn, and isn't especially bad.
Boogie Wings is one people remember fondly for the 'pick up elephants and swing them around' type gameplay.
Criminally Overlooked Games #16: Boogie Wings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgTyYMr_rJs#)
Toaplan did Flying Shark (which everybody should know, although it displays Taito because Taito distributed it), and eventually Batsugun which is considered the game from which pretty much all modern 'bullet hell' shooters are derived.
There are all things people repeatedly asked after, and many of them are either only emulated properly due to some mahjong / adult games helping, or, only exist because some Mahjong games supported the company.
Nichibutsu were no different either, they gave you late 80s classics like Terra Cresta and Terra Force, but they made most of their money making Mahjong games!
Your argument that you've never heard of any of the games doesn't really make the point any less valid, I can tell you that emulating and producing Mahjong games has underpinned both the emulation and production of many games which have been enjoyed greatly by audiences outside of Japan.
Anyway, my other points are still valid. There is a strong shift in the attitudes of up and coming programmers. None of them seem to do it for enjoyment anymore. To the very best devs MAMEDev has had it didn't matter to them if they were emulating Galaga or Doki Monkey Panic, the interesting part was figuring things out and getting them running. The challenge of it all. The developers of old would be relishing the challenge of getting Cool Riders ( Sega Cool Riders Attract (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl7GOgp9zwI#noexternalembed) ) running simply because it's such a weird piece of hardware. (if it looks familiar basically that's because it's a 'sequel' to OutRunners) The younger generation couldn't care less about the technical challenges of it, or the enjoyment of the coding, and figuring things out properly. They see programming as a job, nothing more, nothing less.
I missed most of the 80s games, I was too young at the time to play the majority of them, that didn't matter. I have no particular affection for 99% of the things I've emulated, and the ones I did care about (due to playing home ports mostly) were already emulated, yet I still enjoyed working on the project. The same could be said for most of the good developers (if you only care about a single game / system contributions tend to be limited, and experience gained more limited) People who have 'favourite games' and only care about their 'favourite games' were probably never going to make good developers in the first place, you can't be a good MAME developer with such narrow vision.
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I would also agree that the vast majority of the games that I grew up with and would want in my cab are already emulated quite well in Mame. (With the exception of Dragons Lair and Space Ace...I have a love for these games even though some would argue their controls are sucky) I could really live without most of the 3D games as I can play the majority of them on the PS1 or PS2. Sure some could argue that I could pick up Namco Museum on PS1 and play Pac-Man too..but my point? I am old, when I think arcade I think Donkey Kong and Pac-Man and heck, even Mortal Kombat and Killer Instinct. I don't think Tekken and Soul Calibur. These games I played on the consoles and not so much at the arcades. This is just me though. I understand we have younger people here who would love to get Tekken running arcade perfect with 3D acceleration. But me? I am happy with what has been achieved so far. I have been using Mame since there were only 20 games emulated (middle 1990s I think). I never would have guessed that the project would still be going on today. I am glad that it is though. And I am still waiting for Dragons Lair and Space Ace. :)
(I know Daphne emulates these games but I prefer 1 emulator instead of multiple ones, plus I believe Daphne only does re-encoded mpegs from the DVDs and I would rather see a straight arcade LD rip like MAME did with Cliff Hanger)
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Probably will never see Dragon's Lair or Space Ace as long as Digital Leisure is selling them...
Daphne found a way to compliment what Digital Leisure is selling so it works well for both of them...
This go the same for the lack of Golden Tee golf editions....
Southpaw
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I'm one of those people that want games like Fire Shark emulated more accurately. I've never even seen or played a real PCB of it, but I know its reputation in shmup circles and I like what I've played in the current soundless version emulated. There's more to Mame than what you played in arcades.
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I'm one of those people that want games like Fire Shark emulated more accurately. I've never even seen or played a real PCB of it, but I know its reputation in shmup circles and I like what I've played in the current soundless version emulated. There's more to Mame than what you played in arcades.
Fire Shark needs a PCB buying and the MCU sent for decapping. It's the only way to have proper sound in that case; all the code and sequencing data for the music is locked away in that chip.
That's one of the tasks where regular guys CAN help with donations etc. because it's not a cheap process, and it's an impossible task for an emulation programmer alone (we physically don't have the code to actually emulate the sound CPU)
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boogie wings looks fun!
chris.
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So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?
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So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?
I don't know the current going price for a PCB of it, but you're looking at $250 at least for just the decap fee, and it might require more than one try / attempt because it's a procedure that can just go wrong and kill the chip dead before being able to read the data, as has happened with several in the past.
$250 is only because the guy is giving MameDev special discounts as well, his usual fees are much higher, but it also means that MameDev work gets a much lower priority.
Unfortunately it's not a cheap or easy process, but in some cases it really is needed
[MAME] Heavy Unit running in MAME with 'Mermaid' MCU emulated (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MtvH7QR4u8#)
Heavy Unit is a good example of a game we've only been able to emulate properly now that the protection MCU has been decapped. The original (non-bootleg) Slapfight / Alcon is another that was done recently.
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So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?
$275 shipped for a Fire Shark PCB here (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29270&start=0). I believe he's in Taiwan, a good seller I've bought from before.
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So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?
$275 shipped for a Fire Shark PCB here (http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29270&start=0). I believe he's in Taiwan, a good seller I've bought from before.
Checking the lists a new PCB might not be needed, it's already listed actually.
102 HD647180 QFP80 Fire Shark Decap & de-protect
19 HD647180 QFP80 Vimana Decap & de-protect
58 HD647180 QFP80 Teki Paki Decap & de-protect
Which basically just means he has the chip and it's a case of time / money.. and the guys getting their priorities right. They seem to be decapping quite a lot *useless* chips which tell us nothing at the moment.
However, if it were to fail (or if it's already dead..), then yes, another PCB would be needed.
but yeah, with enough money those can almost certainly be decapped and read out for each game, granting sound emulation in them.
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Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work...
You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group.
The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown)
The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned? Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern? You've got Mahjong games to thank for that....
When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too.
The same can be extended to adult games and others. If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom.
The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece. This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work.
Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones. They admit this in an interview somewhere.
Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-)
Another good point. But it still seems to me there are (very generally speaking) two schools of thought. Would make sense to have two groups who share info that relates to each others projects. One group does arcade games, the other does gambling/mahjong games. In a way, it would be emulating (teehee) what several games manufacturers used to do. Since the latter group aren't going to feel constrained by being absolutely faithful, they can soldier on with their work, while the former group might attract new blood interested in the work that group is doing. Both groups could then concentrate on improving games that need improving before moving on to newer games.
Fresh blood seems to be a big problem, that could be a way to get some (",)
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Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work...
You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group.
The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown)
The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned? Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern? You've got Mahjong games to thank for that....
When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too.
The same can be extended to adult games and others. If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom.
The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece. This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work.
Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones. They admit this in an interview somewhere.
Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-)
Another good point. But it still seems to me there are (very generally speaking) two schools of thought. Would make sense to have two groups who share info that relates to each others projects. One group does arcade games, the other does gambling/mahjong games. In a way, it would be emulating (teehee) what several games manufacturers used to do. Since the latter group aren't going to feel constrained by being absolutely faithful, they can soldier on with their work, while the former group might attract new blood interested in the work that group is doing. Both groups could then concentrate on improving games that need improving before moving on to newer games.
Fresh blood seems to be a big problem, that could be a way to get some (",)
Your logic really doesn't make sense.
You're saying if I'm working on a driver, which has Mahjong games in, which are essential to getting the driver running properly, testing it properly and maintaining it properly I should just say "These are Mahjong games, I'm not looking at them, somebody else will" ? That's only going to severely delay progress and result in more bugs.
The point is, to MAME, and the best MAMEdevs it's code and components, the nature of the game that comes up on your screen beyond that is irrelevant. As I've said before, the good developers relish the prospect of working on anything at all.
If anything, the opposite approach works better, which is 'emulate whatever you want' Putting artificial restraints on what people are allowed to emulate can't help anything at all?
Your approach is pretty much suggesting reintroducing the MAME/AGEMAME type split but for MAME/Mahjong, which ... didn't work, it only hindered development, created uncertainty (with nobody being sure if they should work on something, or who to contact about a PCB just in case it was gambling)
MAME/PinMAME... yeah that worked well too, PinMAME is practically dead and unable to take advantage of any core improvements to sound/CPU emulation made in MAME now.
It's also similar to the MAME/MESS situation, which ... while MESS is highly active .. isn't really working in cases where the hardware is shared, due to the separate teams and inability to test changes cross-project as easily which is becoming increasingly common, hindering development, and introducing bugs in both MAME and MESS.
Splitting something which is otherwise identical across multiple projects with different teams has historically been proven to not work very well. Splitting the development of MAME and Mahjong drivers would have exactly the same effect. If anything it makes it look like there are even more 'political' problems within the team causing splits for no apparent technical reason or benefit. Remember, this is a technical project, not a 'free games of your choosing' one.
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1) To properly implement something, yes, developers need the controls
No, they dont. 720 was working without the controller, and it was enabled.
As were many other games that Devs dont have controllers for.
There ARE cases where there is needed hardware... such as when there are special add-on PCBs, Force feedback motors, or readings that need to be measured.
However, in 720's case, its a simple dual Optics set. Theres no need whatsoever to have the real hardware. If you have bothered to even look at the device, you would know that.
It has a tron-esc encoder wheel to read position (72 spoke? spinner), and a 2ndary encoder disc that has a single slot cut out of it, which is a Calibration disc... that keeps the players controls from getting too far out of sync w/ the onscreen position. It acts as a simple On/Off switch.
As for things like Shifters. Thats also not needed. They are simple On/ Off switches, and again, are HACKED to work completely Opposite to the way Arcade machines work. A operational switch would easily allow dual modes for correct and hacked methods... and its the RIGHT thing to do.
2) Aaron would like to keep switches down to a minimum, he's stated this in the past.
That is a BS E X C U S E for not getting things to work Properly and ACCURATELY!!!!! Instead of a GIANT HACK JOB like 720 current is.
3) Again, if you have a special use case, there is nothing preventing you from either changing it yourself, or paying for somebody to change it yourself. Just don't expect Mamedev to do it for you. It's a special case, nothing more, nothing less.
Its NOT a Special Case. Its called ACCURATELY REPRESENTING HARDWARE!
Mame is SUPPOSED to be about 100% Arcade Accuracy. AND, every time someone proposes a HACK, Mame Devs will CRY about Accuracy. Yet what do they do with 720??? HACK THE HELL OUT OF IT. It NEVER controlled with an analog joystick! Its completely bastardized.
Yet, I ask mame to allow for an alternate input method for superhangon's brake, and I get the standard "we dont change the nature of Arcade hardware/ Inputs"
Its a giant LOAD of Stinking BS.
Introducing unmaintainable, untested code into the project is suicide.
Adding a frickin Switch to make an Arcade machine emulated 100% accurately isnt Unmaintainable. Thats more BS for you kids.
There are far many other Crappy switches and options that are meaningless and worthless... and have continued to be kept in.
The main thing here is that 720 should not have been hacked in the 1st place.
If anything, there should be a "CHEAT" to allow the game to be HACKED with an
analog stick. The real game does NOT exhibit that nature at all. And because of that, mame is a bunch of Elitist Hypocrites.
Who again, dont give two Craps about the USERS, the very people who Support preservation efforts through donations... PCBS, Artwork, and more.
Quite a slap in the face from these KIDS who wernt even around to play many of these games... and clearly dont understand their value. To ppl like Haze, 720 is as valuable as a Jap Porn Mahjong game. (maybe less so, due to his technical "puzzle" interest)
I find it Tragically funny how one who Preaches about Preservation and Accuracy has no gripes whatsoever about Butchering a classic game.
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Nothing, actually. I wasn't actually aware this had occurred, as I'm still pretty new here.
Before you dive your Hatred on someone, get a clear understanding of the situation. Else you look like a fool.
Quote from: Xiaou2 on December 29, 2010, 03:27:17 PM
Now, what have YOU done for Preservation sake?
Hmm. Again, nothing.
Well, maybe its time to Start doing more than flapping your lips? There are many things that need preservation efforts, and many ways you can help keep history from being trashed.
One immediately Easy thing you can do, is Rally for games to not be Hacked, like in the case of 720. Real hardware should be easily interfaced to be able to be used and experienced by anyone who has a real controller, builds their own controller...etc... Without ANY additional programming or jumping thru a hoops.
But, here's where we differ: I respect those who have contributed to MAME development, and I don't post like a pompous, elitist, self-serving ass who thinks he's entitled to have his opinions on the direction of the development actually heard and followed. You post like your donations or ideas mean you deserve something in return.
Your poor attitude speaks Volumes about the backing behind it.
You see, Im a Preservationist, and Classic fan. I grew up with these games, and played most all the major classics IN-PERSON, on REAL MACHINES.
I have a RIGHT to be disgruntled about Mames PATHETIC and Hypocritical
excuses, and low standards of Preservation. Im not the only one. Im just one who dares (Gasp) open his mouth about it.
PPL like Haze are trying to touch up a Famous sculptors creation with bubble gum... or fix a famous oil painting with finger paints... and call it "Good Enough".
I have the Right to be ticked off about that... and so do others. Others like the very CREATORS of these works, who specifically balanced the entire gameplay around these specially designed controllers.
The more people that just Kiss the Devs Butts, and dont say a word,.. the more likely valuable things will be Lost forever.
Ive given plenty of Props and Respect to Devs, and what I got in return, was more Disrespect than anything else. So, this bad attitude I supposedly have, isnt merely something I presented Immediately. You have no idea the warm fuzzies I sent to various devs... and the cold and even abusive responses Ive gotten in return.
So yeah, my respect level with them now, is Definitely pretty poor. Especially with ppl like Haze, who does not even really value the content.
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I have a RIGHT to be disgruntled about Mames PATHETIC and Hypocritical excuses, and low standards of Preservation. Im not the only one. Im just one who dares (Gasp) open his mouth about it.
Actually, you DON'T, anymore than I or anybody else does.
I totally appreciate that you have contributed and really care about the preservation of one of the more important elements of classic games (which is almost always overlooked by those who haven't worked with original hardware) -- the controls.
Sure, for 99.9% of the folks out there, specialty controls for individual games don't matter, but I see value in preserving that aspect. It is one of the reasons that I try not to jump on the bandwagon regarding RAM Controls and their delivery problems.
OTOH, I have no reasonable expectation for anybody else to undertake such burden. A further complication is the various means of interfacing such controls.
I applaud the desire to support original specialty controllers, but you have no more right to expect the MAMEDevs to do what you want than folks who donate to BYOAC have to expect saint to give them access to PostHell (which is really something to see -- your contrributions are exemplary!).
;)
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I have a RIGHT to be disgruntled about Mames PATHETIC and Hypocritical
excuses, and low standards of Preservation. Im not the only one. Im just one who dares (Gasp) open his mouth about it.
You might have the right, but that doesnt make you right.
PPL like Haze are trying to touch up a Famous sculptors creation with bubble gum... or fix a famous oil painting with finger paints... and call it "Good Enough". I have the Right to be ticked off about that... and so do others. Others like the very CREATORS of these works, who specifically balanced the entire gameplay around these specially designed controllers.
MAME is open source, code it yourself. Oh, thats right.......
You proclaim Haze is just making it good enough, what exactly are you doing again? I mean other then complaining about MAME and specialty controls. Why dont you give a buncha money to RAM Controls and make custom controls for specialty games, like bike handles for paperboy and what not. How about making giant frankenpanels and selling them in the BST section.
If you dont like the way MAME handles 720, then play 720 on something else or fix it yourself.
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"if you don't like it, then do it yourself ban ---my bottom---" doesn't really apply when the programmers trolls are actively stirring up debate on message boards.
Just sayin'.
Fixt
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"if you don't like it, then do it yourself" doesn't really apply when the programmers are actively stirring up debate on message boards.
Just sayin'.
I also said he can play 720 on something else if he didnt like MAME. Like on midway Arcade Treasures ( on PS2, Xbox, GameCube, and even the PC) cause those programmers made a special spinner controller for.....wait, no they didnt. I remember buying that special controller for Smash TV on SNES, wait no, that didnt exist either! Xiaou2 wants to ---smurfette--- and moan but not do anythign about it.
Theres nothing wrong with wanting something better in MAME, but there is something wrong to expect it of devs.
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"if you don't like it, then do it yourself" doesn't really apply when the programmers are actively stirring up debate on message boards.
Just sayin'.
I also said he can play 720 on something else if he didnt like MAME. Like on midway Arcade Treasures ( on PS2, Xbox, GameCube, and even the PC) cause those programmers made a special spinner controller for.....wait, no they didnt. I remember buying that special controller for Smash TV on SNES, wait no, that didnt exist either! Xiaou2 wants to ---smurfette--- and moan but not do anythign about it.
Theres nothing wrong with wanting something better in MAME, but there is something wrong to expect it of devs.
It's also a little bit pointless blaming me for it.
I've never worked on the 720 driver, Aaron has.
I've never worked on the core code that deals with controls, Aaron has.
Nobody is claiming 100% accuracy.
"MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines." (from about MAME on mamedev.org)
The controls are on the outside, how we handle them isn't defined by this project statement.
Your beef seems to be with Aaron, the things you're complaining about are all things he is responsible for, yet you're using them to put me down, just because I'm explaining where things are coming from and why they are as they are.
PS PinMAME should be coming back to life, within MAME, or at least, the code will be maintained within the main tree, obviously MAME will never directly run Pinball sims with physics etc. on it's own, but you could use it as an I/O interface using the likes of MameHooker etc. I'm sure. One of the devs painstakingly updated all their old code to compile again, although most of it has been stripped down to the bare non-functional minimum because the old code was just too old to work with any of MAME's current systems and employed gross hacks to do things that MAME can do natively now (eg creating a fake video system to display the LCDs etc.)
This kinda builds on the point I was making earlier about keeping things together; because they weren't most of it is going to have to be rewritten rather than evolving with the project as everything else has.
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The exemption to this idea would be the Laserdisc Emulator, Daphne. Actual captures from laserdiscs enabled the project, to thrive. The captures not an easy task to complete, and from the unauthorized distribution of active copyrighted material on the Internet, the developers used a novel distribution model with Digital Leisure, to promote their project and copyrighted material for legitimate users. That is pretty cool, considering it is from a preservation project aspect. Would that be something difficult to implement in Mame?
Yes the horse has already bolted out of the barn, and the past is just that, gone. Can Mame become a closed project, or a symbiotic distribution outlet?
No, it can not. MAME is an open project, such solutions tie it to a specific platform, and would force important parts of MAME (debugger) etc. to be crippled for copyright reasons (because it could be used to bypass any such system). This has no part in a project like MAME and the 'no linking against closed libraries' clause specifically exists to prevent this type of abuse of the system.
Essentially doing this would kill the project because it could no longer be properly open and unrestricted. MAME is a product of the public, for the public, in the best interests of the public.
Beyond that, there are more technical reasons too, the modern Digital Leisure based stuff simply wouldn't work under MAME's laserdisc emulation architecture which requires more data than just the visible video in order to work. To get them to work you'd have even have to throw away the concept of properly emulating the system by hooking up hacks to bypass the actual emulation of the LD player and such (which Daphne does for everything anyway) At this point it really stops even *being* MAME, and you have something like Daphne.... so, why not just use that?
Mame's purpose for archival, which merits exclusion to the DMCA begs me ask this question yet again to Haze: Has the Mame Team ever [to date] submitted the entire digital catalog of the Mame Project to the Library Of Congress, or will Mame ever be a partner of the NDIIPP? (http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/collections/index.html)
If this not the intention, then making excuses afterwards for the project and participants is irrelevant and practically impossible to justify.
Mame is responsible under its own declaration to document the archival of arcade machines 100%.
The answer hasn't changed from before. You can let the developers get on with what they want, or you can tie them down with red tape in some effort to be more official? Given how difficult it is already to encourage people to work on the project further red tape and other bureaucracy associated with something like the NDIIPP would, in my opinion, not help the project. Governments, and related projects aren't known for their efficiency, and as previously mentioned, the development team probably only has a 5-10% US weighting anyway even if the current lead developer is American.
MAME is already recognized globally (aside from maybe by X2) as doing a fine job, albeit begrudgingly by some publishers who would rather not admit it has saved their skin more often than it hasn't. Again, I don't see the point, I don't see any _real_ benefits, just additional pressure. The DMCA does not concern MameDev at this time. I would also expect any kind of official recognition to cause prices of uncommon PCBs to sky-rocket, which wouldn't benefit anybody except those hoarding the last few remaining copies of them, some of which are already no doubt incredibly close to extinct for this reason. The manufacturers wouldn't be simply handing over their original roms, because I assure you, in most cases they don't have them anymore, or the IP ownership is so convoluted these days, they can't.
Every time you start bringing this up you seem very 'robotic' in your viewpoints, that everything has to be officially signed sealed and stamped to be acceptable with 1000 references to back everything up and that the DMCA is some big nasty stick being waved at Mamedev who are running into hiding in Afghanistan because of it. Mamedev is organic, the project is organic, we get on with our own things the way each of us feel best. It's the complete opposite of the way you seem to view it, and the things you seem to view as important are completely irrelevant to the developers of the project. There isn't going to be any middle ground here, neither of us are going to agree.
Mame is responsible under its own declaration to document the archival of arcade machines 100%.
MAME is _responsible_ for nothing.
I personally might feel a level of responsibility, but really, nothing is guaranteed.
Maybe some people would like MAME to be responsible for everything, maybe this is why development seems to be being taken for granted, but really, it isn't. This was one of my original points, people just seem to think the existing MAME team will take care of everything.
Some people would like the TV to be responsible for their kids too.
Again there has been a strong shift in attitude here over the years, from when people were grateful whenever MAME emulated anything, to simply *expecting* MAME to emulate everything. I think this attitude might also be putting people off.
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Well I found this interesting (http://www2.si.umich.edu/CAMILEON/research/research.html).
The inclusion into the NDIIPP, could breathe new life into the project, open the door to new resources, new coders, build new relationships with companies related to the project.
Isn't this the main reason for your vent on your webpage? Lack of direction/commitment/resources? The trickle you mentioned?
What can be possibly so horrific and counterproductive to consider donating the Mame Project officially to the Library Of Congress?
What are you frightened of? Loss of control?
No. Pride maybe?
Yes it might close the doors on future gaming prospects, but MAME is not about gaming, so that is not a problem, right?
I'm sorry Haze I cannot see your argument against submittal.
I think of it as an opportunity to bring in new talent. :)
I just fail to see a single _advantage_
No, it wouldn't breathe new life into the project. The project is already known globally, and working on the project as I've explained before, requires rather specific skill-sets.
It creates odd political situations. Would MAME have to strip everything out that wasn't a US version? That might offend US users? Might be one way to remove support for the Mahjong games... I'm honestly not sure possession of some of those Korean 'adult' games would be considered legal in the US either. How would the rest of the world feel about this? Again MAME has _very_ little to do with the US, why choose that? Even in terms of arcade games the US influence is minimal. You had a couple of success stories (early Atari, early Midway) but beyond that?
You're starting to come across as very pushy, as if you have an agenda and somehow work with the NDIIPP. You manage to do this with most of your posts, regardless of subject. Like X2 you don't seem to like the answers you get, so you become more pushy.
In all your posts I have seen no convincing arguments for such a movement. It reminds me a lot of the 'make MAME GPL and faeries will come down and write all the drivers for you*' arguments people put forward from time to time, or all the adverts on TV telling me that I need to go out and buy a new 3D TV....
If somebody else was to want to do this, using the information in MAME as a base they're more than welcome to, but MAME has _already_ cemented it's place in history for the work it's already done without needing any kind of official recognition for it.
* You've only got the look at the state of even some of the most popular Linux apps to know, that's just not going to work. Most of them are atrocities, and the GPL definitely hasn't saved them or given them quality developers which is a shame, because I'd really like to like and use Linux.
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Perhaps you can comment in my other requests for information.
I've already commented on everything I thought was worth replying to, the other stuff has been answered elsewhere.
Development and the things being playable go hand in hand. One is not possible without the other, they support each other to allow for further development. This is not a reflection that MAME has become (or always was) a project about 'playing the games'
If MAME was not playable, how would I have reached level 5 in Fire Barrel to fix the graphic bugs in it? There is no public documentation for the custom chips on that PCB, no way to know without playing it, in the emulator, and analysing the test case it gives to reverse engineer the behavior.
If MAME was to make things unplayable in public releases, how would anybody know things were broken to report them, so that they could be fixed?
It needs to be possible for your average person using normal hardware to play the things supported in MAME, because most developers are average people using normal hardware.
On the contrary, if MAME was more about playing the games, why would we go the extra mile to emulate properly emulate speech chips, with a huge performance hit, when the Samples were more than good enough to just play the games?
Again you seem to be seeing this as a very 'black or white' issue, one or the other, archival, or playing games. This is the very same point X2 can't seem to understand. MAME documents what it can, but also MUST remain accessible in order to progress this documentation.
Being able to play the games IS still a side-effect of it, because the primary goal is to figure things out and document them, but without that side-effect it becomes impossible to achieve the primary goal because with every piece of progress MAME / MAMEdev are making history (or at least discovering things which have been long lost, if they were ever properly documented at all, which in most cases they weren't)
You can't just stick a PCB on the lap of a developer say 'look at it, now emulate it based on what you see on your lap' The chips there might give you some pointers to get started, but nothing more.
MAME is a collection of the knowledge of the contributors to the project, anything which helps further that knowledge is considered a good thing.
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and no, MAME has no 'end date' Again, you're seeing this as a very 'robotical', 'by the rules' 'system'. It isn't. Can you PLEASE try to understand this. There will ALWAYS be something left to do in MAME, I guarantee you that even 30 years from now there will be things left to do in MAME. Whether people will be actively working on them is another question.
You completely miss the human element of the project in every single one of your questions despite it being one of the most important things about the project. MAME is NOT a Machine, it is not a commercial product, it has no ship date, none of that stuff.. It's something people work on because they enjoy working on it.
I don't think it's worth replying to another one of your posts. You've been claiming to have been working on this thesis for ages, studying MAME for ages, but you still manage to miss the most obvious things about it. You need to actually take in what you've been told before continually asking the same things and expecting me to give you different answers.
basically, it's like you asking me to draw a circle, then telling me I haven't drawn a circle because not every point is equidistant from the center to the nearest 0.005mm. That is to say, it's annoying. MAME is MAME.
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Which again, is why there is a need for Money to pay developers to care, and get things 100% Preserved. Not half A**ed like it is currently.
I can recall seeing a certain developers name called 'haze' countless time in the change notes for new mame releases WRT improvements etc.
Can't recall seeing yours, half assed effort or otherwise.
You may have made donations to preservation projects, but I've made donations to several third-world projects and it doesn't give me the right to call the volunteers efforts 'half assed' merely because poverty still exists in those countries.
I'm an appreciative beneficiary of mames 'side-effect' of playing classic games for 12 years now and it has been the backbone of my hobby thanks to the efforts and skillsets volunteered by these guys. May I suggest you take the energy you devote to your sense of entitlement and use it to learn programming.....and then use the remainder of that energy to make the mamedevs efforts look 'half assed' by achieving what you have no right to demand of others??
I look forward to seeing your name in a future whatsnew.txt
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How can i unsubscribe to threads? This one went waaay off topic :S
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Does anybody have a Snicker's bar...or five...for Xiaou2?
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Well this thread has been hard to read though all the, uh 'issues'. But, I'm glad I got through it, I've learned a lot from many different angles. It's come close to spiraling down into the typical internet pissing match, but not quite. People will always disagree on some things. What a boring world this would be if we all agreed on everything.
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I'm glad I've gone through it too. This has been one of the most enjoyable threads on here in awhile IMO. I've learned a lot about mame development that I never knew before. I think I finally get why the games are playable! I was always a little confused about that as just calling it "a side effect" seemed a little vague to me.
And to people demanding things be a certain way in mame and bashing Haze: COME ON! :banghead: You've gotten access to a ton of very playable emulated games for free thanks to a lot of hard working volunteers. Almost everything in mame from the classics era through the late 90's plays good to excellent. Sure mame isn't perfect. It never will be. Nothing in life ever is or ever will be. Just relax and play some games. If you really want things to be perfect, seek out the original hardware. Unless we're talking something obscure, I would think most original PCBs and controls are not that hard to find if you're willing to pay.
Again there has been a strong shift in attitude here over the years, from when people were grateful whenever MAME emulated anything, to simply *expecting* MAME to emulate everything. I think this attitude might also be putting people off.
Yep, it's part of a big problem in our society I'm afraid. It used to be that if you went out of your way to give people something good, they'd be thrilled and love you for it. Now they're like, "Is that it? I want something better. MAKE IT BETTER!!!" ::) Don't let it discourage you Haze. I appreciate your long posts explaining things. Some people are just going to read them and then say, "but...but...I WANT WHAT I WANT!" Not a lot you can do to change people's minds when they just don't listen and don't get it. I've personally given up trying to deal with these kinds of folks in my own life. I'll explain something to someone once or twice, and if they're still angry and don't get it, I give up.
Whaddya gonna do? :dunno ;)
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Yep, it's part of a big problem in our society I'm afraid. It used to be that if you went out of your way to give people something good, they'd be thrilled and love you for it. Now they're like, "Is that it? I want something better. MAKE IT BETTER!!!" ::) Don't let it discourage you Haze.
I can deal with it. It might put off new developers tho.
From what I'm told good old 'lets collect all the bad dumps with our goodtools' Cowering has ruined any potential MAME/MESS merged anyway by being his usual kiddie self and throwing his toys out the pram (he hosts the MESS SVN and makes sporadic contributions to the project so can't be entirely ignored sadly) I can only see having further detrimental effects on the project. The current separation really is a roadblock in cases where emulation of shared components needs to be improved which is an area needing ever increasing attention. To work on something you really want all the resources and test cases to improve it and ensure you don't break anything.
It seems that for everything I try to do, or set into motion to improve things some ego gets in the way somewhere and stops it for no real technical reason. To a degree this is also responsible for the state of things now. Having people involved in the project who are willing to stand in the way of real progress for their own personal benefit and the benefit of nobody else is never going to help.
I know a fair number of people don't like me that much for taking a tough line with things, but I've always tried to simply make sure progress is made rather than egos stroked. People who do care about the project will contribute anyway, people who only care about themselves are usually the replaceable ones.
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This is the very same point X2 can't seem to understand. MAME documents what it can, but also MUST remain accessible in order to progress this documentation.
Nope. I understand it. Its you who thinks in Black and White.
As I said, and I repeat... there is no GOOD reason why 720 cant be controlled by
BOTH an Original Controller, and the HACKED Analog Joystick. Just like just about
ANY other game in mame which supports MULTIPLE methods of controls.
And following your reply about general usability... it turns out that to select music in Superhangon, you need to use the brake. However, the Arcade brake assembly had two switches in it... which means that one has to be on while the other is off, and vise versa. This is not typical to be able to access with gamepad or keyboard input... and even to build a custom controller, was a pain in the Butt. Yet mame makes no effort to make that music easily selectable/accessible.
Why? As was told to me, that they will not alter the way that the game works from the way it worked in the arcade hardware. Which is Understandable. But why not make a cheat/hack to be able to bypass it for the standard users... like 99% of all other cases?
As seem from all of these examples... its very easily clear that Mames stance is based on Personal Preferences from the Developer. The Devs who spout their Holy values, are spewing Hypocritical BS that they dont even follow.
Every time Ive pinned Haze about these Glaring Inconsistencies, he has shifted his stance... and tried to dodge the reality. Every time I back him into a corner, he realized Im correct and that he cant lie his way out of it.. or BS me, he finally shifts the blame to another Dev. Yet all the while, he was 100% solidly attacking, thru the entire process.
Haze knows that the Hack to make 720 work is absolute CRAP. He personally would have never bowed to user request to make it Playable by adding such a gross coding hack... cause Haze is selfish, and really does not care if anyone else enjoys the fruits... so long as he gets His. (anyone who has read Hazes past comments would know this) He is very much Black and White, and you could probably call him an OCD Coder, as code has to be "just so" for it to be acceptable in his mind.
Aaron did the users a very nice thing by making 720 at least sorta playable with the Analog hack. However, to disable the ability to use correct controls is completely Wrong. He SHOULD know this. He should Fix it. Period. As said, there is no good reasons why multiple input methods shouldnt be available.
Mame is about Preserving games. They word it as preserving mere circuit boards. But thats a crock, and everyone knows it. To PROPERLY preserve a game, means that game has to be experienced the same way it was DESIGNED TO BE EXPERIENCED!!! This SHOULD include every aspect, from gameplay, PROPER control methods, controller Documentation/Specs, cabinet art, cabinet dimensions, internal artwork, history development notes/stories, and much much more. If these things are NOT being Documented... then you are NOT PRESERVING A GAME.
Instead, you are picking what You think is important... such as Documenting all the aspects of a Classic cars engine, to the degree that you could easily re-fabricate it... but have No knowledge of the cars interior, fabric, accurate body shape, controls, suspension, ect. We all know that the Engine is very important, as without it, the car will never move. However, a car is much more than the engine. The first thing you experience is the beauty of the shape of the car. Which leads to getting into the car, and experiencing the internal beauty and controls. Which leads to the handling of the car, thru its suspension aspects/controls, which are all built around the engine. Every aspect IS important.
Just as anyone who has ever experienced an Arcade, has immediately been excited by the Mere look of the artwork and cabinet shapes. Next being the actual original controls and gameplay. Which of course wouldnt be possible without the games PCB engine. The entire experience needs to be preserved 100%... or you are not Preserving it at all.
Imagine, In the future, they may have a museum where every machine is available to PLAY... but most of the cabinets will be Blank, generically shaped, with no artwork, missing artwork, or artwork that is painfully low-res due to low quality pictures being used as sources. A real dismal mess.
Controls? Many controllers may be missing... due to historical documents being lacking, missing, and inaccurate. Thus anyone walking up to play the game 720, for example, will try to mess with an analog stick that they thought might do the trick... and makes the game play completely wrong. Not as was designed and balanced. Not accurate at all.
Mechanical games? Discrete Circuit Games? More than likely lost forever...
But its not just about the Future. Its about Now. I school new generation gamers on Old-School games all the time. And when I do so, I take them to real machines, or a mame setup with the Accurate Arcade controls, so that they experience them correctly.
In a simple example, the kid who I forced to play Robotron... went from nasty comments about the look/age... to ecstatic giggles of joy as he got Hooked. Yet when trying it on his xbox, turned it off in 5 min cause the control was all wrong, and messed up the entire gameplay. Even though he was a FPS kinda guy, a new-Gen kid... he could immediately discern the game wasnt the same without the correct controls. Let alone the Look of the game, and missing the specialized cabinet.
720? Forget it. Its 1000x worse in control than Robotrons leaf-switch joy situation. Theres no way in hell you can move an analog joystick fast enough to do major spin tricks. Analogs travel in too wide an Ark, have too much spring resistance, and many other issues... that all add up to not being able to experience the game as it was intended and designed. Meaning... that its Not being preserved.
To make the New Gens "CARE" about these old Gems (to keep them alive, and further preservation efforts before its too late) ... us Old guys have to start Schooling them. And we are Not going to be able to school them, if we cant for example, hook up our mame cabinets and fire up a game with a real controller attacked to it.
AND, the more demand there is for people wanting to play a game with a certain specialized controller.. the more likely there will be someone who will re-produce it... which helps both the Original collectors fix their existing machines... as well as gets more controllers out there to extend their overall lifetime existences - further keeping them from becoming completely lost/extinct.
Imagine if Mame had an option for outputting Vectors to a real vector monitor. Its very possible that the demand for vector monitors would be so much higher, that it would be more than worthwhile for a huge production run could be made. Because it has not been done, by now, it "Might" be too late for that to even happen... as there might be only 1 or 2 tube Mfgs left.
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Edit: And Ill add something about Hording. I myself spent a lot of time and money to get a real TX-1 machine. I Saved it from an Op who told me he only kept it cause he was considering hacking it into some other driver/machine. It cost me a huge bundle of money, and I had to drive 600 miles total in a uhaul to get it back. The game was not working... so I bought several PCB sets online in hopes. I finally got it to work with some help... and it was amazing.
In the process, I got Bashed for buying a PCB for under $100 away from a Dev. Whom I never knew was bidding. Then I got bashed for not sending the boards half way across the world to an anonymous Jerk, asap, with no assurance it would Ever come back... let alone come back working. (and he was unwilling to repair the boards if the were broke.. nor would assure a quick turn-around)
AND, while I wanted it to go to mame, I knew that it Never would be the same, because theres no option for surround sound (4 speakers in tx1) in mame.. as well as no option for a real arcade Shifter... making it feel / play pathetic (toggle button only)... that I was in No hurry to destroy the chance to play it correctly for myself and friends.
Had mame supported those very features, I would have been a lot more conductive to sending it in a much more timely fashion.
Eventually, I got a buddy to dump the remaining 2 roms.. but they were not needed, as were duplicates.
But the points remain... that if you want to get more collectors/hoarders onboard with mame, start by getting dumpers in other parts of the world (less distance to travel w/ less shipping costs) who arnt such jerks... and who are not so Paranoid as to be anonymous. Get full channel sound working as it SHOULD. Get shifters working As they Should. Etc.
It wont solve every case, but it will end up getting more rare pcbs sent in. Thats a Fact.
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Nope. I understand it. Its you who thinks in Black and White.
::)
He should Fix it. Period.
Pot, meet kettle.
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blah blah blah
blah blah blah, more stuff about how you think decisions are made when really you know nothing
blah blah blah, more blaming me for everything even when I have nothing to do with what you're complaining about
blah blah blah, more calling our statements outright lies
blah blah blah....
hint, you are not involved with the project, you haven't ever been involved with the project, you clearly have no concept or understanding of who makes decisions, or why decisions are made so stop trying to make out like the things you say are facts.
MAME currently has no clean run-time way to support what you want without just further confusing things. Coding this would be a significant task, and not one which anybody wishes to undertake at this time. As a result, the version of the code which offers the greatest accessibility is used. As others have noted, people doing ports have made the same choices. Nowhere in the mission statement is it specified that MAME will work with the original controls, this is not a priority.
Again you're making demands that MameDev should find some more dumpers. Sure, it would help, but the entry requirements aren't cheap if you want to do a good job and be able to dump every chip you're going to encounter, and that's not to mention the required skills needed to carefully handle the boards, remove the chips, reattach things so that they work again, provide good quality videos, scans, run tests. The more specialist the task, the harder it gets to find somebody, there is only one single guy willing to decap MCUs for us. This isn't just stuff anybody can pick up and do, it requires serious commitment, experience, and outlay as well as space to store all the PCBs, equipment, and possibly a workshop to do the serious PCB work. How about you do something? Oh wait.. too much to ask, as always.
Quick turnarounds can't be guaranteed. It's a good thing Guru kept hold of that Godzilla PCB because the graphic dumps were half size, but we didn't know this until it started doing something in the driver, which has required in total 10+ years of work. Now we can also ask for reference videos of specific parts of the game that are causing problems in the emulation. Re-sourcing the PCB would have been difficult. Actually getting this stuff right and the hardware understood is preserving it, the controls can be fiddled with and changed without consequence at any time in the future by anybody who has a specific need. If the actual EMULATION of something is broken it won't matter what freaking controls you give it and most people will find that a lot harder to fix that than fiddling with the input ports.
zzzzz
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I believe Xiaou should make me a free arcade right now! Where we could all go play and eat pizza for free. But why hasn't he? because he's selfish and only cares about himself. He only thinks about what he wants, his arcade and not what we need. If Xiaou wasn't selfish he would do it. plain and simple.
:lol
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I can't remember what this thread was about any more. Apparently every thing is just dandy at the MAME house. End of argument ;D
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What is wrong with 720 again? I personally do not play it, as I thought it was crap when it was out in the arcades...
It was a bit crap actually.. the ports were more fun even if less impressive graphically. Bit of a credit eater.
Perhaps Haze would like to offer a few classes to budding coders on how to write drivers on his website.
Aaron has tried this a few times, but the problem is, especially with his constant changing of the codebase and renaming of simple things, the guides go out of date very quickly.
Somehow any such guide would have to be out of the context of MAME, but at the same time teach the essential skills needed for MAME. I'm not sure how this would be approached.
Many many years ago, before I emulated anything there were people running 'how to emulate' type tutorials, starting with Space Invaders, but to be honest, I didn't really learn anything from them, I learned what I know through playing with the source myself.
Xiaou2 needs to grow up and understand that Xiaou2 is a tiny cog in a massive machine called Mame, he alone cannot change things unless he is committed to make the change and commit to the project.
Haze is 100% correct in defense of Mame, but I am sure there are other ways to stimulate the minds of coders towards classic gaming projects.
It's odd, because Classic games are actually getting more exposure than ever as of late, as I've said, I think it's a more general problem with the current generation of programmers and why they do what they do.
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You do not have to be a programmer to contribute to the Mame Project.
Never said you do. However, dissing the efforts of volunteers who give up their time and abilities on a project you ultimately benefit from smacks of bad attitude and self entitlement.
But slamming someone because their name is not in a credit list is irrelevant.
Its pretty obvious I'm 'slamming' him for his comments about the efforts of volunteers on a project from which our community (including him) benefits, not the fact he's not a developer. I did, however, point out the fact that he's not really in a position to be calling the effort of the experts 'half-assed' when he can contribute nothing in this area himself.
Would you consider those who donate towards purchases of boards for the project, not involved? What about those who archive the artwork, documenting the history? Should these people not have a right to make a point about the project?
Absolutely. Should they have a say in the development and implementation of various aspects of MAME if they lack the necessary skillsets? No.
In other words, should the MAME project allow 100 xaiou2s, each with different views on how things should be done, to be 'involved' in the direction the project takes, all while they're badmouthing the efforts of the people who actually know what they're doing? Think development is slow now??
Disrespecting the efforts of volunteers who can do ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- you can't isn't 'making a point'. Especially when you've more than likely received a lot of free entertainment from those efforts. It comes across like a poor little rich girl bitching cos daddy was late paying off her credit card bill this month. Got a problem with it sweetheart? Pay your own damn bill, or in the context of this thread, develop your own damn emulator.
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100 xaiou2s
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared :scared
:puke
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Good god, Jeffo. I just spit my drink all over my damn BB.
LOL.
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Good god, Jeffo. I just spit my drink all over my damn BB.
LOL.
I hold my nose when I puke, so it's only half as good....I mean, bad.
What is wrong with 720 again? I personally do not play it, as I thought it was crap when it was out in the arcades...
Blasphemer!
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I would like to thank all MAME devs and those who have contributed to the project and those who will contribute to the project in the future. I would have a really boring arcade machine without it. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
Just my personal opinion ;D
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I would like to thank all MAME devs and those who have contributed to the project and those who will contribute to the project in the future. I would have a really boring arcade machine without it. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
Ditto. I haven't been happy with every change made in MAME, but since I am not the one slaving over the code, it really doesn't matter. Folks may not always like the direction it's traveling in, but IMHO, there's never a legitimate reason to be unappreciative for having been allowed along for the ride.
RandyT
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I would like to thank all MAME devs and those who have contributed to the project and those who will contribute to the project in the future. I would have a really boring arcade machine without it. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
:cheers:
Hear hear. My first step towards building and restoring cabs was with running MAME 030 on my pentium II PC so I could play an arcade perfect copy of Nemesis/Gradius. Its no exaggeration to say that without the work of Nicola and the other MAME devs I would have never owned or worked on an arcade machine.
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Mame is about Preserving games. They word it as preserving mere circuit boards. But thats a crock, and everyone knows it. To PROPERLY preserve a game, means that game has to be experienced the same way it was DESIGNED TO BE EXPERIENCED!!! This SHOULD include every aspect, from gameplay, PROPER control methods, controller Documentation/Specs, cabinet art, cabinet dimensions, internal artwork, history development notes/stories, and much much more. If these things are NOT being Documented... then you are NOT PRESERVING A GAME.
So mame says they are preserving the circuit boards. You dont think that preserving the circuit boards is enough. You want MAME to do more. MAME doesnt want/have/need to do more. You dont like that. You should start a new project, call XouchePreservation or something, where you could preserve every aspect, from gameplay, PROPER control methods, controller Documentation/Specs, cabinet art, cabinet dimensions, internal artwork, history development notes/stories, and much much more.
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To be honest I think threads like this help push away contributors be it code, scans, bug reports, etc as after coming home from work does one want to deal with even more back and forth bickering when now they aren't getting paid for it?
I used to code assembler on mainframes and can appreciate how much work and reverse engineering that must occur on some of these boards. Staring at hex code all day can make one go bonkers. For that I thank the current and past developers for what they have accomplished so far and continue to do. Are some of them d-bags...most likely...just like many of the end-users are d-bags. Human nature baby. :cheers:
After Haze's initial webpost I downloaded the source and took a look around to see if it's something I wanted to play around with when not working on my other coding projects. Some of it looked pretty straight forward and some looked to require alot of digging into the code and mechanics to be able to contribute. I wondered if this is sumthing I wish to spend my free time on. Then I read threads like this and go "smurf it....I'm gunna go play xbox". I wonder if there are others that feel the same? :dunno
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I would like to thank all MAME devs and those who have contributed to the project and those who will contribute to the project in the future. I would have a really boring arcade machine without it. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
summs up my feeling exactly. without the hard work of all the developers the thousands of games (good and bad) would have been lost forever to become a distant memory only seen in films and museums.
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Never once did I ever say I didnt appreciate the efforts put into mame.
However, that still does not mean I cant be dissatisfied with the bad attitudes and lackings in preservation.
It would be just the same if my Discs of Tron scan was made at 30 dpi, stitched crooked, 8 bit color, specs of Dust/Imperfections, light leakage ..etc. Just cause I did it for Free, does not make it good or right... and people can and would have complained... And rightly so. It was a crappy Preservation effort. Just because they dont have the skills, time, money, scanner, and artwork... does not mean they cant be upset. As if they Did, more than likely they would have redone it themselves. Though, its pretty much stupid to Waste efforts on re-doing things... when you COULD do things right in the first place. A lot of devs it seems dont seem to get this concept.. which is one reason why they constantly are re-doing all of their code. (which doesnt help attract new Devs with limited time, who dont want to have to re-learn & re-code everything every 2 months)
( Basically, my point there would be to spend a few days Planning for the future before diving right into coding something in a "Limited" fashion that will surely become obsolete... and or does not take into consideration the entire Scope thats needed for full potentials)
Going back to the Classic Car example.... everyone can appreciate that many of these cars are Drivable. Most dont seem to care that there is no "body", or internals..so long as it drives.
Other cars simply cant be driven properly, because instead of slapping on a steering wheel & pedals... the supercar has an xbox controller, which would be futile and fatal, to even attempt to drive it... let alone race it at high speeds. Is that car Preserved? The engine runs... but its pretty much worthless, because it simply Cant be driven over 20mph safely.
The people who DO try to fool around with the car like that... wont drive fast, and dont care that car is capable of so much more. And so why even bother catering to them grannies? The main target should be the ppl who actually CARE about the Car, and want to Drive it as was intended. Anyone else should have to "Hack" a cheat in there to hotwire some hackjob up.
(A better example might be a person changing a Classic Manual 5 speed car to an Automatic. Tragic Butchery)
"just like many of the end-users are d-bags"
Funny, cause Ive met more Punk Elitist Programmers/Techies with Poor attitudes, Anger/Temper Issues, Arrogant, Self Absorbed, etc.. than the typical EndUser/Collector/Gameplayer. Ahh, but generalizations are great arnt they?
Generally speaking, Programmers/Techs have poor social skills. (which is why they enjoy talking to a computer for Hours instead of real people) They dont get along too well with others, and many times have no patience for people they feel are beneath them. (people who cant do what they do - but "SHOULD" be able to /sarcasm :P . . . )
But ehh, I dont like to Generalize. I prefer to judge people as Individuals... as everyone Is different, and its simply not fair to place judgments on an entire group of souls... just because of the actions of Some.
Finally,
If YOU designed a game, spent weeks made a special controller for it... and spent several months balancing the entire gameplay off of it... Then some PUNK KID comes along and Butchers it to bits, hacking the incorrect controller on it.. with No option for the real deal, taking away the surround sound, and the force feedback ...How exactly would YOU Feel ?! Whos the D-Bag in this scenario?
That was Your Baby. Not theirs. And they shouldnt have the right to make a poor impression of YOUR game, because they lack they make the poor decision to use the incorrect controller.
Its very easy to see things from Your Personal perspective... But that does not mean you are in the right.
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Its very easy to see things from Your Personal perspective... But that does not mean you are in the right.
Kettle, meet Pot.
The big difference between you and most of the rest of us is that while we may not always agree with the direction/results, we don't complain, belittle, demean, or insult those working on the product. We simply acknowledge that it's their time and talent and that they may do with it as they please. We say thanks for what you have done. You act like a child who can't get his/her way.
And your "Punk Kid" comment shows your maturity level and lack of understanding more than anything else.
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If YOU designed a game, spent weeks made a special controller for it... and spent several months balancing the entire gameplay off of it... Then some PUNK KID comes along and Butchers it to bits, hacking the incorrect controller on it.. with No option for the real deal, taking away the surround sound, and the force feedback ...How exactly would YOU Feel ?! Whos the D-Bag in this scenario?
Let's examine this further.... What if someone designed some classic controllers, put a lot of money, time and effort into making them just perfect to be put on their cabinets where they fit perfectly, and overall made a classic setup only to find a horrendous website where some PUNK KID
built some bastardized, gaudy, f'tard of a contraption that allowed for all of these specialty controllers to be built into wood, that supposedly spun around so the end use (the same punk kid, of course) could try and play these games? How exactly would you feel? Who's the dumbass now?
It's ALL perspective now, isn't it?
On the positive side, if it's as easy to code in your switch to make it work, find out the code from when it did work, code the switch in so it works now too, recompile and make it happen, cap'n! If it is really as easy as coding the switch, then do it. It ain't like your launching rockets or anything. It's not finding the cosign of Pluto or whatever. It's just a switch like you said.
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It would be just the same if my Discs of Tron scan was made at 30 dpi, stitched crooked, 8 bit color, specs of Dust/Imperfections, light leakage ..etc. Just cause I did it for Free, does not make it good or right... and people can and would have complained... And rightly so. It was a crappy Preservation effort. Just because they dont have the skills, time, money, scanner, and artwork... does not mean they cant be upset. As if they Did, more than likely they would have redone it themselves. Though, its pretty much stupid to Waste efforts on re-doing things... when you COULD do things right in the first place. A lot of devs it seems dont seem to get this concept.. which is one reason why they constantly are re-doing all of their code. (which doesnt help attract new Devs with limited time, who dont want to have to re-learn & re-code everything every 2 months)
( Basically, my point there would be to spend a few days Planning for the future before diving right into coding something in a "Limited" fashion that will surely become obsolete... and or does not take into consideration the entire Scope thats needed for full potentials)
More BS.
Most things get rewritten because the development of MAME is a LEARNING process, you understand things, you write code based on that understanding, new things come along that changes that understanding and you find that rewriting the code based on that new understanding is cleaner than trying to bash the original implementation into doing what it needs to do. Most of it _can't_ be preplanned because we work with unknowns. It's nothing to do with wasting effort, poor planning of whatever else you like to claim, and it's a part of nearly EVERY single software project in existence.
Writing something from day 1 with a bunch of redundant features you can't test, and can't develop properly makes no sense and usually results in NOTHING at all getting done, because you're too busy trying to solve problems which don't even exist yet rather than actually doing something. Are you saying that when Nicola wrote his Pacman emulator he should have made sure it supported lightguns, analog wheels, 720 controllers and whatnot from day one even if those things were entirely unneeded at that point? Things evolve, code gets rewritten as a result once it reaches a point where that is deemed necessary.
Again you're showing a complete ignorance for how things actually work just so that you can bend them into some argument you're trying to make which is complete and utter nonsense anyway.
MAME is still around, and IS still being developed albeit in a lesser capacity than before, yet practically every other arcade emulator has come and gone in a fraction of that time, bogged down in trying to please every single end user rather than actually catering for the developers and emulating stuff. The fact that MAME has survived and prospered where others emulators and derivative builds have failed and become unmaintainable is evidence enough that your argument is nonsense.
If the builds that offered all the things you wanted were so damn fantastic, then why have things like AdvanceMAME completely died (aside some guy badly backporting drivers then refusing to release source) If they were so much better then everybody would have switched over to developing for those instead and abandoned the main project. They didn't. The official version of MAME currently offers a good balance, and MOST people recognize that.
Its very easy to see things from Your Personal perspective... But that does not mean you are in the right.
Indeed, glad you've finally realised how wrong you are.
As for classic cars, whatever, I've said before, the people doing official ports of these things are happy enough to use console controls, and to be quite honest, it makes sense. All you're demanding of MAME is that it does something we've never stated it will do and continue to try to push YOUR idea of preservation on people rather than respecting the choices made by the team.
You will be quite happy to know that all the pinball games supported in MAME will just be interface board emulations, and most definitely require the original controllers tho!
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If YOU designed a game, spent weeks made a special controller for it... and spent several months balancing the entire gameplay off of it... Then some PUNK KID comes along and Butchers it to bits, hacking the incorrect controller on it.. with No option for the real deal, taking away the surround sound, and the force feedback.
with all the different types of games with their own controller setup/special controller it would be simply impossible to try and incorporate them all into a controll pannel. it would end up dominating any cab that tried it was connected to. when people build their cabnets they have to balance between authnticity and useabilit, depending on what type of games they want to play.
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"MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines." (from about MAME on mamedev.org)
The controls are on the outside, how we handle them isn't defined by this project statement.
Objection is actually exactly about how MAME fails to properly reference those 'inner workings', by omitting to provide support for authentic controls, which does very much need to be emulated from "inside". -- It does not matter who will fix it, do you agree it eventually needs to be fixed or not?
On the contrary, if MAME was more about playing the games, why would we go the extra mile to emulate properly emulate speech chips, with a huge performance hit, when the Samples were more than good enough to just play the games?
Being able to play the games IS still a side-effect of it, because the primary goal is to figure things out and document them...
If MAME is not about playing the games, why is there so many options to process and display frames on PC monitors, why stretching, blurring and filtering, why trying to imitate arcade CRTs, why false game speeds and re-sampling hacks, but still no option to output authentic resolutions at original frame-rates at all?
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If it wasn't for Mame and the huge following (including this site), would your business be profitable or in existence? The same goes to Ultimarc, and the many cabinet makers out there. I wonder how much the vendors actually contributed financially to the Mame Project during all these years? Makes you think.
If you are inferring some sort of monetary link between vendors and the MAME project, then you would be joining the ranks of X with the conspiracy theories. I can't speak for others, but as GGG is concerned, it's just not there. Most of what I try to do is somewhat comparable in hardware to what the MAME devs do in software. You can have the coolest arcade-style game ever made on your PC, but without the ability to use real arcade controls, it's not going to deliver a comparable experience to the one you may have had in the gameroom.
Would my business (or this site) be profitable, or in existence without MAME? Certainly. GGG's customer list includes many significant non-gaming related businesses and organizations. To boot, I have been using real arcade controls to play my own games since the Atari 2600 was on store shelves, and have done it for just about every one of my game systems and computers for the last 30+ years. I played Donkey Kong (ColecoVision), Pac-Man and Galaxian (Atari Computers) on a real WICO arcade joystick and leaf buttons long before there was even hardware capable of emulating other hardware to any usable degree. There have always been arcade-style and classic games for consoles and PCs, and without MAME, there would be more of these released than there are now. You would also find more very arcade faithful "re-interpretations" of the classics being made than there are now (and there are A LOT, even with the existence of MAME.) Neither this site (if you read what Saint has publicly stated on the matter), nor my own business, revolves specifically around the existence or use of MAME, rather offering the ability to average folks to be able to play arcade-style games (wherever they come from) on their very own arcade cabinet or control panel. Every arcade control related business saw a huge jump in sales with the release of Street Fighter 4, which has nothing to do with MAME in the slightest. This is proof that a popular mainstream offering like that one dwarfs any market created by this much smaller group of very dedicated enthusiasts.
But the fact remains that MAME does exist and of course we acknowledge that. Being quietly grateful that it does, along with all of the other great options out there for arcade gaming with real controls, should be a "no-brainer" for anyone not prepared to, nor capable of contributing to them.
GGG's contributions exist primarily in the form of the work we do to bring back a nearly lost gaming experience, and make it usable on your PC with any type of game, or application, one wishes to apply that experience to. We also contribute indirectly to this site through a sizable amount of monthly advertising dollars, which pay for the ads you might see once in a while. But for the MAME project proper, direct support from vendors would run counter to the organic and "not for profit" nature of the project, and GGG respectfully abstains from offering it. Likewise, we have never been approached by any member of the MAME team offering any kind of support for our products in return for monetary, or any other type of considerations.....ever.
RandyT
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If YOU designed a game, spent weeks made a special controller for it... and spent several months balancing the entire gameplay off of it... Then some PUNK KID comes along and Butchers it to bits, hacking the incorrect controller on it.. with No option for the real deal, taking away the surround sound, and the force feedback ...How exactly would YOU Feel ?! Whos the D-Bag in this scenario?
Let's examine this further.... What if someone designed some classic controllers, put a lot of money, time and effort into making them just perfect to be put on their cabinets where they fit perfectly, and overall made a classic setup only to find a horrendous website where some PUNK KID
built some bastardized, gaudy, f'tard of a contraption that allowed for all of these specialty controllers to be built into wood, that supposedly spun around so the end use (the same punk kid, of course) could try and play these games? How exactly would you feel? Who's the dumbass now?
(http://www.sk8dork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/wonder.jpg)
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"MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines." (from about MAME on mamedev.org)
The controls are on the outside, how we handle them isn't defined by this project statement.
Objection is actually exactly about how MAME fails to properly reference those 'inner workings', by omitting to provide support for authentic controls, which does very much need to be emulated from "inside". -- It does not matter who will fix it, do you agree it eventually needs to be fixed or not?
I don't consider it broken, I don't consider it to need fixing.
On the contrary, if MAME was more about playing the games, why would we go the extra mile to emulate properly emulate speech chips, with a huge performance hit, when the Samples were more than good enough to just play the games?
Being able to play the games IS still a side-effect of it, because the primary goal is to figure things out and document them...
If MAME is not about playing the games, why is there so many options to process and display frames on PC monitors, why stretching, blurring and filtering, why trying to imitate arcade CRTs, why false game speeds and re-sampling hacks, but still no option to output authentic resolutions at original frame-rates at all?
It's designed to be developer friendly, for developers to use, and easy testing on a standard PC so that we get good bug reports, for things we do consider bugs and want to fix. We've covered this already.
The failure of projects like AdvanceMAME simply show that trying to cater for a tiny (in comparison) bunch of users, by writing code which is untestable and unmaintainable by the majority DOES NOT WORK.
Most PC hardware wouldn't even cope with authentic resolutions, mid-screen resolution changes and such. Half the reason AdvanceMAME went into a state of disrepair is because they had no way of properly integrating new features needed once MAME started actually emulating framerate and resolution changes at run-time, even on Windows you need to manually scale lines to work with mid-screen res changes, because modern hardware simply doesn't do it. It's hopeless, it's a lost cause, and it's not worth investing effort into. Come the day all external devices require secure connections and signed drivers, including controllers, all your user built controls will end up the same way. (and yes, some of the big players in the industry are pushing for this, Microsoft don't really like knock-off Chinese 360 pads on the PC while the XBOX is already locked down, and Sony already locked out a bunch of 3rd party controllers on the PS3 for similar reasons)
By catering for the majority MAME gets the biggest potential pool of both developers, and users to test the code. By catering for the minority you get an unmaintainable mess which is prone to break with hardware updates, OS updates and the like.
If you want a team which cares more about the minority users you're going to have to find one. MAMEdev provide the base project, one that works with the most common PC hardware. If people want to build on that, add their own functions, make it work with real controls, make it work with real monitors then they can. The fact that the only person maintaining advanceMAME in ANY form whatsoever right now can't even be gracious enough to share his source code with you so that you can also contribute tells me a lot.
MAME is trying to emulate things of the past on a modern platform, not drag parts of them along with it.
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Being new and old to mame... In and out for years... The one thinig I would like to know, especially since I am building cabs for a couple of people right now, is that what does it take to get a NEW game into Mame... For instance Golden Tee and etc... Like we have GT2K2 I think... Does a license have to expire and then the mamedevs can legally get new games to work on? I only ask cause the client I am building this for is a huge bowling/golf fan. and after bringing his new pc over to his house and showing where to get mame, roms, Hyperspin, etc....He, being a NOVICE at best at computers...He seemed very confused to say the least.... :-)
I know that the Dreamcast Namoi thing has come a long way and it is either NEW to ME, or NEW to everyone, but I just got it.... So cool...
Anyways...I for one being almost 40 and my kids growing up and loving the arcade cab is a great feeling. Nothing better than sitting back and playing a little shuffle board with the kids... So keep it up...
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Being new and old to mame... In and out for years... The one thinig I would like to know, especially since I am building cabs for a couple of people right now, is that what does it take to get a NEW game into Mame... For instance Golden Tee and etc... Like we have GT2K2 I think... Does a license have to expire and then the mamedevs can legally get new games to work on? I only ask cause the client I am building this for is a huge bowling/golf fan. and after bringing his new pc over to his house and showing where to get mame, roms, Hyperspin, etc....He, being a NOVICE at best at computers...He seemed very confused to say the least.... :-)
What gets worked on is generally dictated by what is available to work on. What progress gets made on generally depends on who is working on it, and how complex it is.
Developers tend to avoid working on 'active' platforms because it doesn't really make any sense to.
I don't think anybody is working on the newer GT games, they run on significantly more complex hardware, and if I had to guess I imagine you'd get around half the performance of NFL Blitz.
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But ehh, I dont like to Generalize.
Then why did you?
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I just dont get how the software guys are responsible for the interface hardware. :dunno
Also, most "specialty controls" were gimmicks, like the bike handles for paper boy. Was the game neater with them? Hells yeah. Is it needed to play the game? not really.
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I don't consider it broken, I don't consider it to need fixing.
Let's call it "incomplete" then. Do you agree emulation is *incomplete* without support for authentic controls, and so that it eventually needs to be properly documented/emulated too?
It's designed to be developer friendly, for developers to use, and easy testing on a standard PC so that we get good bug reports, for things we do consider bugs and want to fix. We've covered this already.
No. Stretching, blurring and filtering, or anyhow changing animation frames is not only unrelated to documenting "inner workings", but is also of no help or relevance to developers, what so ever. Unless, their goal is to satisfy "nostalgia feel" when playing games on their PC, which directly contradicts the statement how "playing the games is only a side-effect".
What do you propose scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering have to do with testing?
The failure of projects like AdvanceMAME simply show that trying to cater for a tiny (in comparison) bunch of users, by writing code which is untestable and unmaintainable by the majority DOES NOT WORK.
What do you think AdvanceMAME fails in, what feature/functionality do you think is missing, or not done properly? AdvanceMAME did not fail, it got COMPLETED. As far as I know all the bootleg multi-game boards use AdvanceMAME, which ultimately confirms it is actually the best multiple arcade emulator out there.
MAME is not able to accurately document/preserve games, i.e. 'reference inner workings', because it is not able to actually emulate and output authentic resolution and refresh rates. Attacking AdvanceMAME can not change that, it only makes me laugh as a poor attempt to change the subject.
Half the reason AdvanceMAME went into a state of disrepair is because they had no way of properly integrating new features needed once MAME started actually emulating framerate and resolution changes at run-time, even on Windows you need to manually scale lines to work with mid-screen res changes, because modern hardware simply doesn't do it.
Again, what feature do you imagine is missing or not properly done in AdvanceMEME? Why would anyone integrate any more new games that can't run on any hardware anyway, or add any more mainstream MAME nonsense, why keep fixing what's not broken?
MAME is trying to emulate things of the past on a modern platform, not drag parts of them along with it.
Or, you could say: - by attracting to many wanna be programmers and letting them freely fiddle with MAME you now have bloated MAME that can not run properly without "modern platform".
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I just dont get how the software guys are responsible for the interface hardware. :dunno
Also, most "specialty controls" were gimmicks, like the bike handles for paper boy. Was the game neater with them? Hells yeah. Is it needed to play the game? not really.
Uh, yes actually. That was a rather foolish thing to say. ::)
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I don't consider it broken, I don't consider it to need fixing.
Let's call it "incomplete" then. Do you agree emulation is *incomplete* without support for authentic controls, and so that it eventually needs to be properly documented/emulated too?
No, I consider it complete as far as the goals of the project are concerned. If somebody wants to extend those goals further with their own project they're welcome to.
It's designed to be developer friendly, for developers to use, and easy testing on a standard PC so that we get good bug reports, for things we do consider bugs and want to fix. We've covered this already.
No. Stretching, blurring and filtering, or anyhow changing animation frames is not only unrelated to documenting "inner workings", but is also of no help or relevance to developers, what so ever. Unless, their goal is to satisfy "nostalgia feel" when playing games on their PC, which directly contradicts the statement how "playing the games is only a side-effect".
What do you propose scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering have to do with testing?
If you deliver a product which is basically absolutely horrible to use then nobody will use it, it won't get properly tested, it won't get properly adopted, and it will die.
The features you mention are features all designed to keep it user friendly, so that people do actually make use of it, so that it does actually get tested, so bugs do actually get found and so that it can continue to be further developed. If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, that's why hardly any testing gets done of the Naomi driver because with current PC speeds it isn't practical. Once PCs catch up I'd expect development on that to accelerate because people will be testing it and reporting issues.
The limits of what MameDev consider to be acceptable have been drawn. That's why you see basic filters, but not ones which actually malform the graphics in an attempt to 'enhance' them like the HQ4x stuff, we leave that to other ports. It's also why you won't see us running PSX games with the 3d rendered at 1900x1200 or whatever else.
One of the main problems with MESS (historically) is that despite being based on MAME it's been presented in a much less user-friendly way. This meant nobody ended up using it and most drivers were left in a state miles behind the equivalent standalone emulators, which only served to act as a feedback loop, meaning even less people used it.
The failure of projects like AdvanceMAME simply show that trying to cater for a tiny (in comparison) bunch of users, by writing code which is untestable and unmaintainable by the majority DOES NOT WORK.
What do you think AdvanceMAME fails in, what feature/functionality do you think is missing, or not done properly? AdvanceMAME did not fail, it got COMPLETED. As far as I know all the bootleg multi-game boards use AdvanceMAME, which ultimately confirms it is actually the best multiple arcade emulator out there.
MAME is not able to accurately document/preserve games, i.e. 'reference inner workings', because it is not able to actually emulate and output authentic resolution and refresh rates. Attacking AdvanceMAME can not change that, it only makes me laugh as a poor attempt to change the subject.
Half the reason AdvanceMAME went into a state of disrepair is because they had no way of properly integrating new features needed once MAME started actually emulating framerate and resolution changes at run-time, even on Windows you need to manually scale lines to work with mid-screen res changes, because modern hardware simply doesn't do it.
Again, what feature do you imagine is missing or not properly done in AdvanceMEME? Why would anyone integrate any more new games that can't run on any hardware anyway, or add any more mainstream MAME nonsense, why keep fixing what's not broken?
Your ignorance continues to astound me, there have been light-years worth of improvements to the emulation of even the classic systems since then, bugs fixed in both gameplay, visuals, audio output. AdvanceMAME continues to be used on cabinets because it's the cheapest lowest cost solution with the lowest spec requirement for dirt-cheap chinese bootleggers. Same reason it's always the 0.3x versions of MAME which get ported to handhelds, even if the emulation on them is atrocious compared to modern versions. AdvanceMAME has failed, because it is dead, it can't take advantage of any of these REAL improvements, it probably couldn't even be made to.
You could write a novel on the number of things improved in MAME since 0.106 or whenever AdvanceMAME bit the dust. The use of AdvanceMAME and MAME4All is why most of these chinese bootlegs are really crappy, with awful audio, and game-breaking glitches.
I'm not changing the subject, I'm using it as an example of why supporting MAME running on CURRENT platforms with CURRENT hardware is more important than trying to hack in support for legacy garbage. Unless you have a team of people dedicated to doing *just that* your project will die, as AdvanceMAME did. MameDev develop MAME in their own time because they enjoy doing it, I don't want to have to run a 20 year old OS just to develop it and test it. You're lucky it still baseline even runs on Windows 9x at all, if it still does! (I don't know if anybody even tested it recently, I know MameUI doesn't tho)
MAME is trying to emulate things of the past on a modern platform, not drag parts of them along with it.
Or, you could say: - by attracting to many wanna be programmers and letting them freely fiddle with MAME you now have bloated MAME that can not run properly without "modern platform".
No, we have the product we want and set out to create, an emulator for old systems that works on a modern platform and therefore can easily be developed, maintained and updated without the risk of the very emulator ending up being just as much of a relic as the hardware it's trying to emulate due the absurd requirements of having an outdated platform. Bloated would be adding a billion options to support legacy garbage we can't test. MAME is streamlined to run on modern hardware. You seem to have your terms reversed.
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MAME is trying to emulate things of the past on a modern platform, not drag parts of them along with it.
Or, you could say: - by attracting to many wanna be programmers and letting them freely fiddle with MAME you now have bloated MAME that can not run properly without "modern platform".
No, we have the product we want and set out to create, an emulator for old systems that works on a modern platform and therefore can easily be developed, maintained and updated without the risk of the very emulator ending up being just as much of a relic as the hardware it's trying to emulate due the absurd requirements of having an outdated platform. Bloated would be adding a billion options to support legacy garbage we can't test. MAME is streamlined to run on modern hardware. You seem to have your terms reversed.
I never considered MAME bloatware in any sense of the word. What is it, a 12 MB download? Starts up instantly on windows xp, a 10 year old operating system, while using a 10 year old computer. :dunno
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I'll just say as a software engineer, what Haze is saying about mamedev's approach is 100% right and I applaud them for approaching this project in a way that has kept mame relevant all these years. That is no small achievement.
The things that various groups of users want that are outside of the goals of the project can be solved either by someone starting a derivative project or by providing diff's that people can use to compile their own mame to work the way they want. It may be inconvenient and people may wish that mamedev would just incorporate that work to make it easier for themselves, but that doesn't mean it's mamedev's responsibility and it certainly doesn't give users the right to be childish by demanding and criticizing.
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I talked to Aaron about adding support for controls at CAX last year, and he basically said the same thing that Haze is saying; it is not one of the goals of the project and won't be added. that said, he is not opposed at all to a derivative that adds the functionality. It is just beyond the scope of what MameDev wants to do. It is a bummer for those of us who do use the authentic controls, but it makes sense from their perspective - keep focussed on the task at hand. I wish that this was a priority for the team, but I can accept that it is not. I have a lot of respect for everyone who has worked on MAME, and they are certainly entitled to use their time as they see fit.
If we could get a team together to work on a derivative, that would be great. I have talked to a few people, and while we are all interested, we can't really commit to it right now. If we ever get it started, we would have to find some way to keep it updated. If we got it finished, who knows, maybe it could end up in the core someday, but I think there is zero chance of us having support for it unless we do it. I am still an entry level programmer, but I would like to help on the project. I just know that I don't have the time to try to get it started and maintain it.
I think the target market for what we want is mostly on this forum, and I also think it is a very small percentage of us who actually need it. If there are enough of us to make it happen, great, but MAMEdev is not going to do it. If we get a serious effort going, some of them may be willing to help us along, but it will be up to us to do it. Is anyone interested?
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I like TheShanMan's comment about providing diffs rather than attacking the development team. MKChamp's diffs have been valuable, and have actually taught me how to compile so I could incorporate a functionality that I wanted (but wasn't necessarily part of the program). It's been fun. In fact, I downloaded the source to DICE, changed it and recompiled it so now I can play Pong on my cabinet using my button assignments (as the defaults aren't MAME friendly). It was a great learning experience .
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Everybody knows that I am not a MAMEGuy(tm) and that Haze doesn't agree with some of the stuff that I do, but this thread is getting ridiculous.
If you want something so badly that you are willing to alienate the people who do the work, then write the ---smurfing--- code yourself.
Otherwise, you are just catching your dick in your zipper whilst you whip it out to show how cool you are in the scene.
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Otherwise, you are just catching your dick in your zipper whilst you whip it out to show how cool you are in the scene.
That could have some advantages of them being unable to reproduce. :lol
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Exactly. Your products are Mame orientated. You have contributed nothing to the Project which has fed your site with orders for your innovated products like Turbo Twist and the Key Wiz. I'm one of those happy customers. I think they are great, but I also donate to the Mame cause whenever I can. I believe you can have your cake and pay for it in advance, as it will get tastier over time. Maybe it is time to dig deep and offer some cash towards the next auction (http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/du/donate.html) eh Randy? Could be the perfect marketing ploy for 2011. ;D
I'd like to, but unfortunately, this is one of those lines it does no-one (meaning the MAME Devs, nor GGG) any good to cross. I support this site (in more ways than one) which helps to expose more people to the cause, which in turn helps the MAME team get what they want and/or need. There are plenty of other folks in this community who can say the same thing. You don't necessarily have to give cash to buy PCB's to be helpful (although I understand why it is preferred.) I have my own high R&D costs to worry about getting back from a small market such as this one, and I don't get donations to offset them. But if anyone would like to .... 8)
RandyT
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That is total pants.
Cube Quest was very complex, but it got done. Philip Bennett and Joe Magiera did an exceptional job.
There are plenty of inactive platforms like in .84 that could see some accuracy, than to go romping off and add all those crap Mahjong {sp} games you guys just love to bloat Mame with. :banghead:
Yeah, there are complex platforms emulated, plenty of them, but the devs are more interested in the older ones. Cube Quest is utterly unique, and something interesting to work on.
Golden Tee 2k2 is complex, but far less interesting from a hardware perspective; much like the games that run on x86 architecture and haven't seen much attention (Hydro Thunder and the like) It's going to take a dev with genuine interest in those platforms to figure them out. I think Hydro Thunder was probably one of the best arcade games released, because it offered pure *fun* and decent value for money (unlike many which came after it) BUT, the hardware, it scares me, it's not something I can personally deal with. The x86 platform is quite honestly an abomination and utmost respect has to go to the DosBox guys and others for producing anything event remotely playable.
The hardware used is complex, but, at the same time boring. It's not fun to work on, it's like grinding.
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Exactly. Your products are Mame orientated. You have contributed nothing to the Project which has fed your site with orders for your innovated products like Turbo Twist and the Key Wiz. I'm one of those happy customers. I think they are great, but I also donate to the Mame cause whenever I can. I believe you can have your cake and pay for it in advance, as it will get tastier over time. Maybe it is time to dig deep and offer some cash towards the next auction (http://smitdogg.mameworld.info/du/donate.html) eh Randy? Could be the perfect marketing ploy for 2011. ;D
I'd like to, but unfortunately, this is one of those lines it does no-one (meaning the MAME Devs, nor GGG) any good to cross. I support this site (in more ways than one) which helps to expose more people to the cause, which in turn helps the MAME team get what they want and/or need. There are plenty of other folks in this community who can say the same thing. You don't necessarily have to give cash to buy PCB's to be helpful (although I understand why it is preferred.) I have my own high R&D costs to worry about getting back from a small market such as this one, and I don't get donations to offset them. But if anyone would like to .... 8)
RandyT
Well if it means anything I'm happier to see adverts for your site, where you've put genuine work into the products you create than random people offering lousy ROM DVDs for 5000% markup.
While the team obviously can't go out of their way to support anything special it's clear your business is a genuine one, and not one that *relies* on MAME.
I'm unlikely to buy your products, because I'm a developer, and whatever people might say here I am genuinely satisfied with using a generic pad for that. I'm not even AGAINST people creating specialist builds for custom controllers, it's just not a primary goal of the project to support them. At the same time of course, I'm not expecting you to provide all the active developers with your controls, at cost to you, just to support this.
The HotRod (or was it x-arcade) guys tried this years ago, as did the TopGun guys, by sending sample products to developers and expecting them to support it. In the end the other developers (and newer developers) just got fed up with this because there was a bunch of unmaintainable code they could no longer debug or support because they didn't have the hardware to do so, and requiring specialist hardware as an entry requirement for developing the software is ridiculous.
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with all the different types of games with their own controller setup/special controller it would be simply impossible to try and incorporate them all into a controll panel. it would end up dominating any cab that tried it was connected to. when people build their cabnets they have to balance between authenticity and usability, depending on what type of games they want to play.
Not impossible. Ever consider a modular CP? That's what I built. I want as many realistic controls as possible. I even went as far as buying a yoke from Dave to accomplish my goal. For me, the nostalgia is in the controls as much as it is in the game.
Does that mean I'm going to bash the devs for not supporting all original controllers? No. I would love to see it, but I'm not going to going to argue and make demands of the devs. I appreciate everything the devs have done.
Now, I have zero programming background. So I don't know how or if it's feasible at all. But could there be a generic interface or API to allow people to easily write an interface without having to modify the core code in MAME? It may be unmaintainable. Or it may be just as much work as patching the code. I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
Eitherway, I would like to thank Haze and all the other devs (past, present, and future) for all they have done to preserve these games.
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No, I consider it complete as far as the goals of the project are concerned.
What the ...?
- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?
The features you mention are features all designed to keep it user friendly, so that people do actually make use of it, so that it does actually get tested, so bugs do actually get found and so that it can continue to be further developed.
Making it 'user friendly' at expense of 'accuracy' is not only contrary to MAME goals, but is also promoting piracy. Those are not user interface features, they have nothing to do with being 'user friendly'. Those features only serve one single purpose, which is to play & ENJOY the games, as opposed to play & TEST. -- The goal of MAME is to make games look more attractive for average PC user, or to document inner workings of those PCBs, make up your mind.
If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback.
You got your "feedback" - authentic controls should be supported/emulated as important part of inner workings of authentic hardware, just like authentic resolutions and frame-rates.
I'm not changing the subject, I'm using it as an example of why supporting MAME running on CURRENT platforms with CURRENT hardware is more important than trying to hack in support for legacy garbage.
Authentic controls, resolutions and frame rates are "legacy garbage" for you? Funny to hear that since MAME is still embarrassingly struggling with visual artifacts such as 'scroll tearing'.
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No, I consider it complete as far as the goals of the project are concerned.
What the ...?
- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?
correct
The features you mention are features all designed to keep it user friendly, so that people do actually make use of it, so that it does actually get tested, so bugs do actually get found and so that it can continue to be further developed.
Making it 'user friendly' at expense of 'accuracy' is not only contrary to MAME goals, but is also promoting piracy. Those are not user interface features, they have nothing to do with being 'user friendly'. Those features only serve one single purpose, which is to play & ENJOY the games, as opposed to play & TEST. -- The goal of MAME is to make games look more attractive for average PC user, or to document inner workings of those PCBs, make up your mind.
The primary goal is to accurately document and emulate the components a PCB to a degree which would be indistinguishable from the original hardware by ANY piece of software running on that board. 'Creating an accurate emulation of the PCB'
To create an accurate emulator requires users to be running it and using it on a daily basis in order to generate bug reports etc. To have users requires it to be user friendly and enjoyable to use. For this reason features which make it user friendly and enjoyable exist. There is no excuse to develop software which is NOT user friendly on purpose.
How do you know if your emulation is flawed, or if a driver has regressed if nobody is using your emulator because you went out of your way to make it non-user friendly?
Ergo to achieve the primary goal of the project it must also be user friendly.
Again, is this simple concept so hard to understand?
You are attempting to redefine 'accuracy' to be something that the development team DO NOT believe it to be. This is not your project, you do not decide this type of things. Others might argue that it can't be accurate unless everything is emulated at gate level, again, if you approached the team with that argument you would be told the same thing.
If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback.
You got your "feedback" - authentic controls should be supported/emulated as important part of inner workings of authentic hardware, just like authentic resolutions and frame-rates.
This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important. Does this need repeating again? This specific feedback has been acknowledged. Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'
I'm not changing the subject, I'm using it as an example of why supporting MAME running on CURRENT platforms with CURRENT hardware is more important than trying to hack in support for legacy garbage.
Authentic controls, resolutions and frame rates are "legacy garbage" for you? Funny to hear that since MAME is still embarrassingly struggling with visual artifacts such as 'scroll tearing'.
MAME has to work with what modern hardware is available. Scroll tearing doesn't bother me, most modern software has it. Current hardware can only support limited refresh rates. It's just something you have to accept. I don't see it as an issue. Again if somebody wants to make a build which works with older hardware they're welcome to.. but simply getting a CRT monitor is becoming harder and harder and having a version of MAME which is better suited to them isn't going to reverse that trend. Even the main manufacturers of these things, who serve a bigger community than you could ever hope to be have pulled out because producing them is no longer economical.
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This whole thread seems ridiculous to me. Boderline retarded. Whats the point of emulating these games if nobody wants to play them the way they were MEANT to be played. Of course they were enjoyable, thats why someone wanted to preserve them due to advancing technology.
Quote from: Haze
If nobody used MAME it would be YEARS behind where it is now simply due to lack of feedback.
You got your "feedback" - authentic controls should be supported/emulated as important part of inner workings of authentic hardware, just like authentic resolutions and frame-rates.
This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important. Does this need repeating again? This specific feedback has been acknowledged. Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'
That whole "minority viewpoint" seems completely skewed especially in these forums. I dont know. It just seems with todays technology, whats the point of perseving something if youre not going to use/play it with the controls it was designed to use. You know why people preserve food? Cause they plan on eating it.
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Pardon any typos or oddities, I'm typing this post-suergery on Percoset and I'm pretty loopy but hey, nothing else I can do right now so Internets it is!
MAME is what it is. Agree or disagree with Haze's perspective, it doesn't matter. People who are coding for the project by and large all seem to share the stated goals as Haze has laid them out. Arguing about those goals as to whether they're good or bad, true or blowing smoke, is a bit silly. The end results of the coding that we can all see seems to bear up what Haze says. They haven't implemented support for arcade controls, the GUI is lacking (these aren't complaints, but observations), and a host of other things. If game play vs. game documentation was the real goal, these items would have have been addressed years ago. The fact that they haven't in the core build tells me that Haze's perspective is the actual intended direction MAME-Dev is heading and always has been.
I personally have web mirrors of a ton of stuff from the net, most (but not all) related to this hobby in some fashion. For instance, when Geocities went offline I pulled down as much of the sites hosted there as I could. I don't actually do anything with the majority of these mirrors, I just have them because I think they should be preserved... just in case somewhere down the line someone needs to refer to them. I didn't preserve them because I wanted to use them - I preserved them because I thought they should be preserved. My med-addled brain finds this a parallel to MAME as a documentation project.
My favorite emulator back in the day was Retrosomething.... can't recall at the moment. Maybe Retroblast. Neil was the coder. It had a great front end GUI that I really liked. A lot of the emulation code was shared between it and MAME and I don't know who was the source and who the beneficiary, but I thought that was a good example. MAME the code/documentation repository, Retroblast the unaffiliated emu designed for fun game play vs. preservation.
Wonder if this post will be as insightful to me post-drugs? :)
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Honestly, I think Saint will nix that last post.
Back to my topic, three reasons developers should not read their own forums:
" 'Forums contain a cacophony of people telling you to do diametrically opposite things, very loudly, often for bad reasons. There will be plenty of good ideas, but picking them out from the bad ones is unreliable and a lot of work. If you try to make too many people happy at once, you will drive yourself mad. You have to be very, very careful who you let into your head.' "
Full article: http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html (http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html)
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Damn. Percoset is a helluva drug. :lol
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Damn. Percoset is a helluva drug. :lol
True. I think Saint may be the first person to draw a comparison between Geocities and Mame. :laugh2:
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That whole "minority viewpoint" seems completely skewed especially in these forums. I dont know. It just seems with todays technology, whats the point of perseving something if youre not going to use/play it with the controls it was designed to use. You know why people preserve food? Cause they plan on eating it.
I think the current offered input systems are perfectly adequate to play the game for 99% of people who are going to be using MAME for that purpose.
The people doing the OFFICIAL ports of the games have come to the very same conclusions.
Bloating MAME with additional options to support different controls is not in the best interests of the baseline version. Again, if somebody wants to assemble a team to create a version for this purpose then nobody is stopping them, but it's clear that the existing team does not care about this and would rather just emulate things than fiddle with wacky controllers.
Nicola, Myself and Aaron have over the years assembled the existing MameDev team, and done the work we wanted to see done. The guys doing MAMEui which offers a GUI, and MamePlus, which offers additional filters etc. have also assembled teams to make the changes they want, and get the work they wanted to see done when their features were deemed to be outside the scope of the project. The people who did AgeMAME did the same, and eventually we saw their work (the gambling systems) and decided that it WAS worth integrating it into the mainline, and that it was covered by the scope of the project. For a while the AdvanceMAME guys did the same, but we saw their work, and while it was deemed useful to people wanting to run with original hardware it was deemed too high maintenance and impossible to support moving forward with marginal benefits to the actual development of MAME to actually integrate it.
If there are so many people who want to see what you're asking for here (as was the case with the other examples) it shouldn't be hard for you to form a team to get that done. If you care so much about these things it becomes YOUR responsibility to keep that going while MAME continues to provide the core emulation library. Derivative works have been created before, there really isn't much excuse.
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That whole "minority viewpoint" seems completely skewed especially in these forums. I dont know. It just seems with todays technology, whats the point of perseving something if youre not going to use/play it with the controls it was designed to use. You know why people preserve food? Cause they plan on eating it.
I think the current offered input systems are perfectly adequate to play the game for 99% of people who are going to be using MAME for that purpose.
The people doing the OFFICIAL ports of the games have come to the very same conclusions.
Bloating MAME with additional options to support different controls is not in the best interests of the baseline version. Again, if somebody wants to assemble a team to create a version for this purpose then nobody is stopping them, but it's clear that the existing team does not care about this and would rather just emulate things than fiddle with wacky controllers.
Nicola, Myself and Aaron have over the years assembled the existing MameDev team, and done the work we wanted to see done. The guys doing MAMEui which offers a GUI, and MamePlus, which offers additional filters etc. have also assembled teams to make the changes they want, and get the work they wanted to see done when their features were deemed to be outside the scope of the project. The people who did AgeMAME did the same, and eventually we saw their work (the gambling systems) and decided that it WAS worth integrating it into the mainline, and that it was covered by the scope of the project. For a while the AdvanceMAME guys did the same, but we saw their work, and while it was deemed useful to people wanting to run with original hardware it was deemed too high maintenance and impossible to support moving forward with marginal benefits to the actual development of MAME to actually integrate it.
If there are so many people who want to see what you're asking for here (as was the case with the other examples) it shouldn't be hard for you to form a team to get that done. If you care so much about these things it becomes YOUR responsibility to keep that going while MAME continues to provide the core emulation library. Derivative works have been created before, there really isn't much excuse.
Dont get me wrong here, I think its AMAZING what you and the team have accomplished so far, hell, I just stumbled onto MAME last june. Prior to that, I was looking at spending 1200 bucks on a Marvel vs Capcom cab just because if I could only have one arcade in my house it would be that one. Now, thanks to guys like you, and the people at Ultimarc and GGG etc, I get to play all of my favorites. Also get to show my kids one day how enjoyable older, "obsolete" things are. I dont know jack about programming, so I cant contribute that way, the only way I can, and know how to do, is with money.
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My favorite emulator back in the day was Retrocade. Neil was the coder. It had a great front end GUI that I really liked. A lot of the emulation code was shared between it and MAME and I don't know who was the source and who the beneficiary, but I thought that was a good example. MAME the code/documentation repository, Retrocade the unaffiliated emu designed for fun game play vs. preservation.
I fixed that for you, and I absolutely agree.
Something else I think folks need to keep in mind is that simply for documentation purposes, it is not necessary for the MAME devs to have made any kind of controller mapping provisions. So long as the code is documented to the point where that physical controller attaches to the PCB, their job according to their stated goals is done. So as Haze has stated, anything they chose to implement in order to test for functionality is just that. They could easily strip out all of the control mapping to external devices, while maintaining full documentation (and even operation) of the PCB functionality. There would just be no way for anyone to get to it without maintaining a separate project to map PC peripherals or original controls though custom interfaces, etc., to the external control stub code. And really, there is nothing preventing anyone from doing this right now, if they so desire.
So in short, folks, be happy that they provided, and most importantly continue to maintain, one of the most flexible control mapping options of virtually any gaming application out there, without anyone else having to lift a finger. And if that's not sufficient for your needs, start a companion project with it's own team of developers to do for the original controls what the MAME Team is doing for the PCB's. If you can't find anyone who wants to be part of that team, then you'll probably realize why it isn't something the MAME Team wants to try to manage.
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My favorite emulator back in the day was Retrosomething.... can't recall at the moment. Maybe Retroblast. Neil was the coder. It had a great front end GUI that I really liked. A lot of the emulation code was shared between it and MAME and I don't know who was the source and who the beneficiary, but I thought that was a good example. MAME the code/documentation repository, Retroblast the unaffiliated emu designed for fun game play vs. preservation.
I agree with you Saint.
BTW, it was Retrocade. The GUI was awesome.
Retrocade was actually the first emulator I found, and for a while I didn't even bother with MAME, because Retrocade had the earlier Cinematronic vector games that I loved and MAME didn't. Even when I finally tried MAME, it was only for a few additional games that Retrocade didn't support. I didn't stop using Retrocade for a long time. I still don't run a current version of MAME. I run an older version that's not even an official build because it does what I want and there has been very little in the newer versions to make me want to upgrade.
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I run an older version that's not even an official build because it does what I want and there has been very little in the newer versions to make me want to upgrade.
Give that man a cigar.
But your obscure Mahjong game collection will never be complete! :o
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I run an older version that's not even an official build because it does what I want and there has been very little in the newer versions to make me want to upgrade.
Give that man a cigar.
But your obscure Mahjong game collection will never be complete! :o
I think I can live with that.
I am a more worried about getting a compliment from PBJ! :o ;D
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This preview of Retrocade is actually kind of amusing to read in light of this thread.
Retrocade - Welcome to the next level (http://www.isomedia.com/homes/blutz/emurumor/retrocade.htm)
I may have to fire up Retrocade again just to look at the GUI in action. Maybe I can make a Retrocade FE skin. The dot matrix screen at the bottom was great.
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this has become very confusing to follow.. there's many conversations going on in here now. The point of the post was to help get the word out about the need of new blood for mame.
lol
anyways, when in rome do like the romans do
Randy, I agree with most of your argument about your business still being profitible regardless of mame, but you wouldn't have made certain products (keywiz and ipacs i.e.). Unless.. people want to play grand theft auto, and call of duty on joysticks on their pc. So it would be hit somewhat... maybe those products aren't a major part but oh well.
Haze, has anyone shown interest? I think holding classes would be neat, even if it were teaching people what you did to learn (play w/ the code). You probably could use some online tools to hold the classes with realtime markups and audio or whatever.
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Ark, I'm 40, I experienced the games first hand as a kid, and I have almost 30 original dedicated games in my game room now (and counting). So I know how the games are supposed to be played, and it is important to me. And yet I see this issue like Haze does. It's what mamedev has to do for the ongoing survival of the project. How many times does this have to be said - anyone can start producing a derivative project which has better support for original controls! It sounds to me that Haze would be happy to see such a project be successful. I'd like to see it be successful too. But from a software engineering standpoint I can totally see what Haze is saying.
It seems to me that everyone who is arguing with Haze is essentially saying "I don't want to try to organize a derivative project. It's much easier to just yell at Haze/mamedev!" Well, you can say that all you want, but how's that working out for you?
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If there are so many people who want to see what you're asking for here (as was the case with the other examples) it shouldn't be hard for you to form a team to get that done. If you care so much about these things it becomes YOUR responsibility to keep that going while MAME continues to provide the core emulation library. Derivative works have been created before, there really isn't much excuse.
When I say this, it is with the utmost appreciation for the work that you are doing. But with all due respect, why are you saying this?!?! I thought you wanted the hard working people to help with MAME? I'm sorry, but you started this as a plea to get fresh blood in on MAME. Now you are telling people who have different ideas to go do it themselves??
Let me pull a few quotes from your original WiP statement:
So what’s the point of all this? Well, you can consider it the first part in a call for fresh blood
The real problem for the most part however is that the team needs fresh, new, capable developers
People continue to make demands of the project, from the outside, insisting that great portions of the project, and entire sub-systems are rewritten, and that improvements are made to their favourite drivers, and new systems and games are added, but from where I’m sitting, unless something significant changes, and new developers arrive, I can’t see most of those things happening.
I love MAME, and I think it has done so much good! But I am a bit irked at the political talk I'm hearing. You asked for people. You asked for new ideas. You said that people are making requests that can only be met if you get new people with new ideas. Yet you tell anyone who has a different view to go do it themselves? Sorry dude, but that is no way to get people in on MAME. You want people? Welcome their views, ideas and ambitions. Let them work on control support or whatever goal they have that is not your desire. It may not be part of the goal, but it does not contradict the goal. Its a good gateway to get people in on the project.
My 2 cents? There needs to be new blood in the upper tiers of MameDev as well. The project seems to be lacking vision, and is caught up in the day in day out work. Is that work important? Yes. Is it gonna help the project live on, be better, accomplish more as a whole? No.
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- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?
correct
Did you just say ability to read authentic controls is NOT part of the "inner workings"?!
Not so long ago everyone agreed how third button on Yie Ar Kung-Fu ought to be addressed in MAME, even if it was not documented in manual nor accessible via authentic control panel. The conclusion was if that functionality is part of the actual game PCB, then it needs to be emulated/supported in order to be preserved/documented. -- By omitting *any* authentic functionality you are failing preservation/documentation purpose.
To create an accurate emulator requires users to be running it and using it on a daily basis in order to generate bug reports etc. To have users requires it to be user friendly and enjoyable to use. For this reason features which make it user friendly and enjoyable exist. There is no excuse to develop software which is NOT user friendly on purpose.
Haze_A: Playing the games is side-effect
Haze_B: Making games look attractive and play well on common PC is necessary to attract people and get feedback
How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?
You are attempting to redefine 'accuracy' to be something that the development team DO NOT believe it to be.
Look at the dictionary, it is you who hopes to re-define "accuracy". You are not representing development team, that is only your personal opinion, and it's disturbing you managed to convince many you're some kind of "voice of MAME".
This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important. Does this need repeating again? This specific feedback has been acknowledged. Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'
Speak for yourself, you are not representing MAME team, or have you somehow convinced yourself that you do?
Scroll tearing doesn't bother me, most modern software has it.
Hahahaa, what?! Can you name one?
The first part is amusing, the second part is false.
Current hardware can only support limited refresh rates.
Hahahaa, what?! Who told you that?
What about AdvanceMAME, Powerstrip, Soft-15kHz, and Linux?
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- Goal of the project is to document/emulate 'inner workings', YES?
- Ability to read authentic controls is part of the 'inner workings', NO?
correct
Did you just say ability to read authentic controls is NOT part of the "inner workings"?!
correct, controls are external. The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal. Whatever we feel fits best will be used. The emulation code can support whatever you happen to have, BUT you may need to modify the source if you have a use case which isn't the standard PC hardware one. The input structures in MAME are clear to work with.
To create an accurate emulator requires users to be running it and using it on a daily basis in order to generate bug reports etc. To have users requires it to be user friendly and enjoyable to use. For this reason features which make it user friendly and enjoyable exist. There is no excuse to develop software which is NOT user friendly on purpose.
Haze_A: Playing the games is side-effect
Haze_B: Making games look attractive and play well on common PC is necessary to attract people and get feedback
How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?
There is nothing conflicting about these statements. Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation. To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME. It's a CYCLE. Come on, as I said, this isn't rocket science, you're looking rather stupid now.
You are attempting to redefine 'accuracy' to be something that the development team DO NOT believe it to be.
Look at the dictionary, it is you who hopes to re-define "accuracy". You are not representing development team, that is only your personal opinion, and it's disturbing you managed to convince many you're some kind of "voice of MAME".
I was in charge of the project for a good few years, I know how these decisions are made, if I'm the only one with these viewpoints why is the code, which I have never even worked on, designed to exactly the spec I'm telling you, with the methodology I'm explaining to meet the goals I've explained to you. You don't seem to be getting it.
MAME accurately emulates the PCBs the games ran on to a degree of accuracy deemed appropriate by the developers of the project. NOT by you. Next are you're going to tell us we should emulate all the atoms, just to make sure?
This is a minority viewpoint, and is not considered important. Does this need repeating again? This specific feedback has been acknowledged. Your reply is 'we don't care, it's not in the project goals, nor does it help attain them'
Speak for yourself, you are not representing MAME team, or have you somehow convinced yourself that you do?
Who is disagreeing with me? As I said, I was involved with the team for long enough to tell you that this is why things are as they are. Trying to discredit me makes no sense. I've worked on enough drivers to tell you the expectations involved. You've got other people in this thread explaining to you that Aaron said the same to them at trade shows.
Scroll tearing doesn't bother me, most modern software has it.
Hahahaa, what?! Can you name one?
The first part is amusing, the second part is false.
You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing. You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103 (http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103)
Current hardware can only support limited refresh rates.
Hahahaa, what?! Who told you that?
What about AdvanceMAME, Powerstrip, Soft-15kHz, and Linux?
It's common knowledge. A TFT monitor offers nowhere near the range of refresh rates or resolutions as a traditional CRT. CRTs are dead. Modern graphic card drivers also offer less options. The flexibility offered in the past isn't coming back. AdvanceMAME won't even run on a modern OS which means you're even crippled to using a single core even where MAME can take advantage of more. You're also crippled by only being able to have 32-bit builds, FAT32 formatted drives, low RAM limits.. I doubt it will be long before you can't even buy hardware that it works with. Linux, I do wonder when it will die, they still fail on even the most basic of user friendliness tests.
What are you trying to achieve here, why are you trying to FORCE the development team to do what you want, instead of starting your own project to do what you want based on the already generous offering you're being given? MameDev have done 99% of the work for you by actually emulating the things.
There has been talk in the past of changing MAME to be nothing BUT an emulation engine, where MAME doesn't have ANY concept of inputs other than a bunch of bits at an address, and outputs other than a framebuffer plus some bits to represent outputs. In that case without an external program it wouldn't be possible to *USE* MAME at all, but it would still be emulating the PCB, just as is does now. The fact that we provide a usable PC interface at all should be considered a bonus, but it's done for a reason as previously outlined. In the end the idea was shot down, because having to rely on 3rd party software would just get in the way of development completely, and the devs would end up getting bug reports due to bugs in 3rd party interface software which they were completely unable to fix because it wasn't their code.
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To be honest I think threads like this help push away contributors be it code, scans, bug reports, etc as after coming home from work does one want to deal with even more back and forth bickering when now they aren't getting paid for it?...I wondered if this is sumthing I wish to spend my free time on. Then I read threads like this and go "smurf it....I'm gunna go play xbox". I wonder if there are others that feel the same? :dunno
What is there to 'deal' with? No one makes you read the threads. No one makes the devs read the threads. Sounds like a lot of people are feeling like little girls in these cases. Maybe they're feeling like that way at work, too...
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'How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?
Rules please - you can disagree without being rude.
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I would like to thank all MAME devs and those who have contributed to the project and those who will contribute to the project in the future. I would have a really boring arcade machine without it. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
Ditto. I haven't been happy with every change made in MAME, but since I am not the one slaving over the code, it really doesn't matter. Folks may not always like the direction it's traveling in, but IMHO, there's never a legitimate reason to be unappreciative for having been allowed along for the ride.
RandyT
Well, we can all agree on that (",)
And I'm thankful that pretty much any version of mame is available. I'm a .78 man myself :cheers:
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'How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?
Rules please - you can disagree without being rude.
He couldn't do it when his username was DriverMan, so he probably can't do it now. :P
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To be honest I think threads like this help push away contributors be it code, scans, bug reports, etc as after coming home from work does one want to deal with even more back and forth bickering when now they aren't getting paid for it?...I wondered if this is sumthing I wish to spend my free time on. Then I read threads like this and go "smurf it....I'm gunna go play xbox". I wonder if there are others that feel the same? :dunno
What is there to 'deal' with? No one makes you read the threads. No one makes the devs read the threads. Sounds like a lot of people are feeling like little girls in these cases. Maybe they're feeling like that way at work, too...
Yes no one is forcing me to read the forums. However, emulation interests me and I enjoy the "side-effect" of playing some of the games so I read these forums.
While I don't feel like work is making me a little girl.....I do think several people are trying to make me their ---smurfette---. :laugh2:
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'How about you stop asserting your personal hallucinations represent viewpoints of MAME team?
Rules please - you can disagree without being rude.
He couldn't do it when his username was DriverMan, so he probably can't do it now. :P
Thanks. I missed picking up on that but it makes sense.
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MAME accurately emulates the PCBs the games ran on to a degree of accuracy deemed appropriate by the developers of the project. NOT by you. Next are you're going to tell us we should emulate all the atoms, just to make sure?
So, what if the developers are feeling lazy? Doesnt that contradict what the project is supposed to do? What if I want to become a developer, and just slack off? :dunno I think Im done with this thread. All I got out of it was Haze contradicting himself,whining a little bit, and porobably wanting some credit for being a developer and a bunch of programming mumbo jumbo that I dont know anything about.
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What I got out of it is that a bunch of people who use MAME far more than I do (come to think of it, I don't currently have a MAME cab other than my 48-in-1 and 60-in-1) are far less appreciative of what they have been given than I am.
Contrary to the sense of entitlement that users seem to feel, the project is properly guided by the developers.
I note that, when the opportunity arose to build a database of technical details on specialty controllers (in order to preserve the knowledge and make it easier for folks to build reproductions), none of the people who talk about how important those controllers are (myself included) signed up. The initiative died and the right to ---smurfette--- at others died with it.
:cheers:
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Randy, I agree with most of your argument about your business still being profitible regardless of mame, but you wouldn't have made certain products (keywiz and ipacs i.e.). Unless.. people want to play grand theft auto, and call of duty on joysticks on their pc. So it would be hit somewhat... maybe those products aren't a major part but oh well.
Those products, I am quite sure, still would have been made. Have you seen these?
Namco Museum 50th Anniversary
Taito Legends
Taito Legends 2
Arcade's Greatest Hits the Midway Collection 1
Arcade's Greatest Hits the Midway Collection 2
ATARI ANNIVERSARY EDITION
Atari Arcade Hits #1
Those are just the mainstream commercial offerings that are out there with MAME in existence. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that without MAME, there would be even more of these (if the manufacturers still managed to actually do it without MAME's help.) By time one were to add on all of the arcade-style games available from console emulators and native coded PC-games (no, not GTA and COD...there are other games out there :D), there would still be way more than enough to justify the building of one's own arcade machine and / or panel. Therefore, products which currently exist for doing so would still be immensely useful, and therefore marketable, even without the existence MAME. This community would be a little different, with more emphasis on re-creation of classics, and helping others to find cabinet friendly games, but it would still be thriving.
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
Its a major part of the principles behind Mame that the games should be emulated as exactly as possible and using a native resolution (or a close fit with equalized borders) is a major part of this.
When using Direct3D there is no option to turn off stretching, which distorts the image and loses the advantage of native resolution, ie 1:1 pixel mapping. Rather than adding small equal borders to fill out to the nearest available resolution available on the hardware, the picture is always stretched to fit the screen.
I think one of those problems is that as well as DirectDraw going modern OS's are doing what they can to get rid of the concept of 'resolution' (or at least the ability to change it to something non-standard) completely.
You've only got to look at current technology which due to it's nature is 'locked' to a single resolution (the native display res) and frequency. If you want things bigger / smaller these days it's done by scaling the graphics, not changing the resolution.
Supporting such things is fighting against the tide, and you might quickly find Linux to be a better option if you want more control over them (although I don't know, it might already be worse there, I can't say I've paid much attention)
Does SDLMame do a better job on Windows?
Yes currently Linux is going the opposite direction with respect to Windows in opening up the ability to control the video hardware directly in the kernel layer. There are employees of the major video card companies (ATI has one hired just for that purpose) actually writing the code to interact with the video cards, so we are now able to get SDLMame to do a near perfect job at resolution display and refresh rate compared to Windows. It's very new and within the last month really ready for the ATI cards, in the stable kernel probably in March this year for page flip vblank timestamp support there.
I see the concept of resolution being being somewhat left behind even in the Linux developments but am myself able to support kernel patches to open it up fuller than it's been in Linux or Windows in the past (there's a few little issues they put in there to work around with 15khz console display and group of 'default' resolutions to step around). I've talked with the ATI developer and he's open to listen but still admits they are as everyone else focused on high end displays and HDTV's, but there is still the ability to program modelines without restriction in the Linux DRM layer and ATI drivers (and others either mostly done or in the works).
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What I got out of it is that a bunch of people who use MAME far more than I do (come to think of it, I don't currently have a MAME cab other than my 48-in-1 and 60-in-1) are far less appreciative of what they have been given than I am.
Contrary to the sense of entitlement that users seem to feel, the project is properly guided by the developers.
I really don't see a lack of appreciation from anyone except a couple people here. Most of us just want to see MAME do better...and not die. :dunno Sorry for putting out ideas and opinions on a forum* without being part of the Mame "secret circle" ::)
...and you can say the project is properly guided, but how hard is it to guide nobody? To quote Haze:
in reality progress is a trickle, and it’s a trickle because there is no real MAME development team left.
*forum
1. A public meeting place for open discussion.
2. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.
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MAME accurately emulates the PCBs the games ran on to a degree of accuracy deemed appropriate by the developers of the project. NOT by you. Next are you're going to tell us we should emulate all the atoms, just to make sure?
So, what if the developers are feeling lazy? Doesnt that contradict what the project is supposed to do? What if I want to become a developer, and just slack off? :dunno I think Im done with this thread. All I got out of it was Haze contradicting himself,whining a little bit, and porobably wanting some credit for being a developer and a bunch of programming mumbo jumbo that I dont know anything about.
I think a lot of developers slack off at different times. That is part of a hobby endeavor. It is not a job, so they contribute when they want to. A few of them contribute regularly for extended periods of time. Whether you agree with Haze or not, his dedication to the project for, I don't know - the last decade or so, has been pretty amazing. One thing I have never heard from him is contradiction. He still describes the project just as he did when he was the maintainer. He deserves as much developer credit as anyone who has worked on the project. To the MAME team, it is a programming project to document arcade pcbs. Any discussion with any of the devs will include a lot of programming talk, because that is how MAME is described. The documentation is in the source code, which is a bit amazing in itself. the main difference between Haze and the rest of the developers is that he is willing to entertain these discussions.
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I really don't see a lack of appreciation from anyone except a couple people here. Most of us just want to see MAME do better...and not die. :dunno Sorry for putting out ideas and opinions on a forum* without being part of the Mame "secret circle" ::)
...and you can say the project is properly guided, but how hard is it to guide nobody? To quote Haze:
No need for you to apologize -- you have expressed your appreciation (as opposed to a number of others in this thread) and just have a differing viewpoint. Ain't nothing wrong with that. :cheers:
I am as far away from any "MAME secret circle" as you can be in this hobby, so I'm rather baffled by your statement. As I said, I don't have a MAME box running and the stuff I do have running MAME are boards that the MAMEDevs hate with a passion. I've also objected to some of the stuff that has been included in MAME.
I will say that the project is properly guided by developers -- that is, explicitly, that it is proper that the developers are the ones who should guide it, as opposed to catering to the mob (or those in the mob who yell loudest). I think that is somewhat different than the sentiment that you seem to be assigning to me.
Thanks for the tips as to what a forum is ... I must have missed that along the way. ;)
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
Its a major part of the principles behind Mame that the games should be emulated as exactly as possible and using a native resolution (or a close fit with equalized borders) is a major part of this.
When using Direct3D there is no option to turn off stretching, which distorts the image and loses the advantage of native resolution, ie 1:1 pixel mapping. Rather than adding small equal borders to fill out to the nearest available resolution available on the hardware, the picture is always stretched to fit the screen.
I think one of those problems is that as well as DirectDraw going modern OS's are doing what they can to get rid of the concept of 'resolution' (or at least the ability to change it to something non-standard) completely.
You've only got to look at current technology which due to it's nature is 'locked' to a single resolution (the native display res) and frequency. If you want things bigger / smaller these days it's done by scaling the graphics, not changing the resolution.
Supporting such things is fighting against the tide, and you might quickly find Linux to be a better option if you want more control over them (although I don't know, it might already be worse there, I can't say I've paid much attention)
Does SDLMame do a better job on Windows?
Yes currently Linux is going the opposite direction with respect to Windows in opening up the ability to control the video hardware directly in the kernel layer. There are employees of the major video card companies (ATI has one hired just for that purpose) actually writing the code to interact with the video cards, so we are now able to get SDLMame to do a near perfect job at resolution display and refresh rate compared to Windows. It's very new and within the last month really ready for the ATI cards, in the stable kernel probably in March this year for page flip vblank timestamp support there.
I see the concept of resolution being being somewhat left behind even in the Linux developments but am myself able to support kernel patches to open it up fuller than it's been in Linux or Windows in the past (there's a few little issues they put in there to work around with 15khz console display and group of 'default' resolutions to step around). I've talked with the ATI developer and he's open to listen but still admits they are as everyone else focused on high end displays and HDTV's, but there is still the ability to program modelines without restriction in the Linux DRM layer and ATI drivers (and others either mostly done or in the works).
Well for that argument, there you go then. You can't expect all the developers to switch over from Windows, but by virtue of keeping the SDL version in the main branch (for cross-platform reasons) Linux is likely to prove to be a good platform if you're interested in that type of things. Windows is becoming less and less of one. (Windows 7 even has nearly unavoidable, undetectable frameskip in everything, even if you're syncing each frame!)
What people seem to be complaining about are mainly the layer(s) between the emulation (which we strive to make as accurate as possible) and the user.
The emulation layer emulates the PCB,
The input layer maps inputs in a way deemed suitable by the developers to the emulation layer (the emulation can cope with anything really)
The OSD layer managers user interaction (display of the output, and actual reading of the input) This is the platform specific layer which talks to devices on your PC
The emulation layer is designed to be as accurate as possible
The input layer is designed to provide a suitable mapping for the common input devices likely to be supplied by the OSD layer
The OSD layer is designed to work with the most common platform used for development (in this case, whatever the latest version of Windows is)
You can't expect the core development team to maintain multiple versions of each layer. Two OSD targets (win32 / SDL) are enough, and that's only possible because there ARE developers dedicated to maintaining the SDL part. If those developers were to drop out of the project (R.Belmont etc.) then chances are the SDL part would be dropped too, because Aaron etc. has no real interest in maintaining it himself.
That's why it makes sense for an offshoot project to handle what people want here, they're not going to have to fiddle with the actual emulation layer at all, it's been done for them, and it sounds like from what's just been said that Linux/SDL takes care of the other 'exact output' concerns people expressed, which again, is already done for them.
It seems people here are too hung-up on making changes expressively against the wishes of MameDev, then bragging to the world about it (removing the Nag screens etc.) yet when MameDev actually suggest they do something more 'useful' you suddenly have no developers at all, and expect MameDev to just do all the work instead. I'm afraid that makes some parts (not all!) of the community here come across as parasitic.
THAT, if anything isn't going to make people want to develop for the project, seeing the way people just abuse it and the developers if they don't get exactly their own way.
I wouldn't say developers were slacking off, they just have clearly defined priorities, and work on what they feel is important to the project, and within the bounds of the project. I do the emulation code, the emulation layer. The foundation of everything else. If we hadn't emulated the hardware/games in the first place this topic of conversation wouldn't exist at all and you'd be having to find a way to hook up a 720 controller to Tony Hawks instead or a commercial re-release/emulation/port where you wouldn't even have the source to modify if you needed to.
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I do the emulation code, the emulation layer. The foundation of everything else. If we hadn't emulated the hardware/games in the first place this topic of conversation wouldn't exist at all and you'd be having to find a way to hook up a 720 controller to Tony Hawks instead or a commercial re-release/emulation/port where you wouldn't even have the source to modify if you needed to.
I have already said thank you, and that I appreciate all your hard work, and that if it wasnt for people LIKE YOU there wouldnt be any project at all. I have said it, Im grateful. Now, to me, it just seems like you want an extra pat on the back, I dont know, maybe Im outta line. Im over it now. :dunno
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IMHO there is one huge issue with Mame which should be high on the "TODO" list.
Its currently not possible to exactly emulate a game in native resolution unless DirectDraw is used. Direct3D does not work when this is attempted. This is a big drawback because DirectDraw is going out of support and is very buggy under Windows 7.
Its a major part of the principles behind Mame that the games should be emulated as exactly as possible and using a native resolution (or a close fit with equalized borders) is a major part of this.
When using Direct3D there is no option to turn off stretching, which distorts the image and loses the advantage of native resolution, ie 1:1 pixel mapping. Rather than adding small equal borders to fill out to the nearest available resolution available on the hardware, the picture is always stretched to fit the screen.
I think one of those problems is that as well as DirectDraw going modern OS's are doing what they can to get rid of the concept of 'resolution' (or at least the ability to change it to something non-standard) completely.
You've only got to look at current technology which due to it's nature is 'locked' to a single resolution (the native display res) and frequency. If you want things bigger / smaller these days it's done by scaling the graphics, not changing the resolution.
Supporting such things is fighting against the tide, and you might quickly find Linux to be a better option if you want more control over them (although I don't know, it might already be worse there, I can't say I've paid much attention)
Does SDLMame do a better job on Windows?
Yes currently Linux is going the opposite direction with respect to Windows in opening up the ability to control the video hardware directly in the kernel layer. There are employees of the major video card companies (ATI has one hired just for that purpose) actually writing the code to interact with the video cards, so we are now able to get SDLMame to do a near perfect job at resolution display and refresh rate compared to Windows. It's very new and within the last month really ready for the ATI cards, in the stable kernel probably in March this year for page flip vblank timestamp support there.
I see the concept of resolution being being somewhat left behind even in the Linux developments but am myself able to support kernel patches to open it up fuller than it's been in Linux or Windows in the past (there's a few little issues they put in there to work around with 15khz console display and group of 'default' resolutions to step around). I've talked with the ATI developer and he's open to listen but still admits they are as everyone else focused on high end displays and HDTV's, but there is still the ability to program modelines without restriction in the Linux DRM layer and ATI drivers (and others either mostly done or in the works).
Well for that argument, there you go then. You can't expect all the developers to switch over from Windows, but by virtue of keeping the SDL version in the main branch (for cross-platform reasons) Linux is likely to prove to be a good platform if you're interested in that type of things. Windows is becoming less and less of one. (Windows 7 even has nearly unavoidable, undetectable frameskip in everything, even if you're syncing each frame!)
What people seem to be complaining about are mainly the layer(s) between the emulation (which we strive to make as accurate as possible) and the user.
The emulation layer emulates the PCB,
The input layer maps inputs in a way deemed suitable by the developers to the emulation layer (the emulation can cope with anything really)
The OSD layer managers user interaction (display of the output, and actual reading of the input) This is the platform specific layer which talks to devices on your PC
The emulation layer is designed to be as accurate as possible
The input layer is designed to provide a suitable mapping for the common input devices likely to be supplied by the OSD layer
The OSD layer is designed to work with the most common platform used for development (in this case, whatever the latest version of Windows is)
You can't expect the core development team to maintain multiple versions of each layer. Two OSD targets (win32 / SDL) are enough, and that's only possible because there ARE developers dedicated to maintaining the SDL part. If those developers were to drop out of the project (R.Belmont etc.) then chances are the SDL part would be dropped too, because Aaron etc. has no real interest in maintaining it himself.
That's why it makes sense for an offshoot project to handle what people want here, they're not going to have to fiddle with the actual emulation layer at all, it's been done for them, and it sounds like from what's just been said that Linux/SDL takes care of the other 'exact output' concerns people expressed, which again, is already done for them.
I really like the way that it's setup in layers like that, have been digging into mame lately and have discovered exactly what you're saying. It's pretty easy and simple to create a separate OSD, if you want to maintain it yourself of course, or to change/patch things in the OSD without touching the emu layer at all. Thanks for giving some detail on the structure, good to know for the most part I'm understanding the basic structure and design ideas behind it.
I definitely wouldn't want to have developers change what they use and seems like they do a great job at supporting all platforms as it is. It's great that mame works well for all systems and the sdl osd part and windows part both are actually quite amazing seeing how that all works on both systems like it does. I think a direct effect of the goal of mame, not wanting to get into just making it work and focusing on the PCB emu area and being fully correct there, allows it to work out of box with Linux because there's a separation of the part that interfaces SDL and the actual emulation layer. Otherwise it'd definitely get messy having anything more inside the core which would have to become OS specific.
I have been curious about the way that the OSD.update() basically seems to be the sole driver of the osd layer itself, or input/audio/video into the UI. Looks like it works, and the thread model for multithreading works with that as it is currently pretty good. Have wondered about if that whole interface could be made into more of an API type interface between the OSD and mame core for audio/input/video or maybe I'm just not seeing the reasons why that would not be too helpful. I'm guessing there might be some issues with driving things in more than a single function call to the OSD.update() and called with the core mame video.frame_update() on the vblank callbacks. It's something that seems interesting though, how the OSD and mame emu part communicate, the entire API between the two, since to me the most interesting part is plugging in the OSD to the mame emu PCB board and being able to pull out the functionality into the OSD. At least interesting to study the code and hopefully I'll get some ideas eventually on ways to help improve that area of mame, although definitely not something that involves the real meat of mame with the emulation and game drivers (which I like the reverse engineering stuff, and have done that with real hardware chips and firmware in Linux drivers before, but also know others are probably better at that side of it than I am).
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I really don't see a lack of appreciation from anyone except a couple people here. Most of us just want to see MAME do better...and not die. :dunno Sorry for putting out ideas and opinions on a forum* without being part of the Mame "secret circle" ::)
...and you can say the project is properly guided, but how hard is it to guide nobody? To quote Haze:
No need for you to apologize -- you have expressed your appreciation (as opposed to a number of others in this thread) and just have a differing viewpoint. Ain't nothing wrong with that. :cheers:
I am as far away from any "MAME secret circle" as you can be in this hobby, so I'm rather baffled by your statement. As I said, I don't have a MAME box running and the stuff I do have running MAME are boards that the MAMEDevs hate with a passion. I've also objected to some of the stuff that has been included in MAME.
I will say that the project is properly guided by developers -- that is, explicitly, that it is proper that the developers are the ones who should guide it, as opposed to catering to the mob (or those in the mob who yell loudest). I think that is somewhat different than the sentiment that you seem to be assigning to me.
Thanks for the tips as to what a forum is ... I must have missed that along the way. ;)
Sorry Jeff, that "secret circle" stuff wasn't a jab at you. I just read one too many times the argument about needing to be a developer to have the right to complain. You're fine by my book. :cheers:
I know there is an "angry mob" who only wants to complain, but I think there is also untapped passion that is being squelched by the very reason that pretty much every suggestion people have made on this thread so far has been shut down. If MAME is truly in Peril, then we need fresh sets of eyes looking at the project and trying to make these "silly" ideas to work. There is nothing to lose by trying. If the newer versions of MAME suck big time because of it, people will just stick with the old versions or a better devient version will come out. It's better than having no new versions of MAME at all.
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And Saint locks the thread............now!
I love how you do that right after MY post. :P
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If the newer versions of MAME suck big time because of it, people will just stick with the old versions or a better devient version will come out. It's better than having no new versions of MAME at all.
Can't argue with that ... I'm at .90 myself.
:cheers:
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.94 which includes Golden Tee (which started in .92).
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correct, controls are external. The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal.
Handling input is essential and very much internal part of any game's functionality. Monitor is not part of PCB, so it is fake scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering that is EXTERNAL (unnecessary).
There is nothing conflicting about these statements. Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation. To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME. It's a CYCLE.
"Playing the games" is the same thing as "people using MAME" in the next sentence. It can either be necessity or side-effect, not both, one excludes the other. It is either intentional or coincidental, conflict is in relation to potential legal liability.
You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing. You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103 (http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103)
Other people in that thread, and I, dispute there is any tearing. Simple sync to monitor refresh solves all the tearing problems, so the guy reporting it was possibly having some issues due to video conversion or NTSC/PAL settings, or was simply referring to some other visual artifact as "tearing". -- One of us is not telling the truth, I mean you.
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The input layer maps inputs in a way deemed suitable by the developers
The input layer is designed to provide a suitable mapping for the common input devices
Says who? Says where? -- I say, in the name of logic, if you can not substitute dead PCB in the original arcade cabinet with MAME machine, then that PCB/game is simply not properly preserved/emulated, yet.
Now, we can substitute many PCBs in many cabinets as it is, but as I understand you could not do it with '720 Degrees' cabinet, and the most important thing you are missing here is - it used to be able to be controlled with an arcade CORRECT controller. Just like with Yie Ar Kung-Fu some baby wanna be developer came along and 'fixed what was not broken'.
Do you not hear people are using old MAME? If MAME developers indeed share your views than that explains it all, you guys got very confused with your priorities and off the original tracks, thus you need to be set straight, in the name of preservation, before you have ruined it all.
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::)
Please don't use those of us who use an older build as evidence for your tirade ... I expect that the others, like me, recognize that MAME is fluid and that every release changes things, not always in the direction of playability. So, we choose to use versions that work for us rather than whine about how somebody else's priorities are out of line.
If you want to play 720 with an original controller (sad that Xiaou never mentioned the interface method, which would be totally relevant here), then just use an old version. Same with your precious Yie Ar Kung-Fu. It ain't rocket science and is exactly why I use an older build.
If I were a MAMEDev and you told me that my priorities were out of line and that I needed to be set straight before I ruined it all, I would tell you to stick your Yie Ar Kung-Fu correction up your ass ... or ask your friend Xiaou2 to give you a death punch, whichever was more convenient.
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The input layer maps inputs in a way deemed suitable by the developers
The input layer is designed to provide a suitable mapping for the common input devices
Says who? Says where? -- I say, in the name of logic, if you can not substitute dead PCB in the original arcade cabinet with MAME machine, then that PCB/game is simply not properly preserved/emulated, yet.
Now, we can substitute many PCBs in many cabinets as it is, but as I understand you could not do it with '720 Degrees' cabinet, and the most important thing you are missing here is - it used to be able to be controlled with an arcade CORRECT controller. Just like with Yie Ar Kung-Fu some baby wanna be developer came along and 'fixed what was not broken'.
Do you not hear people are using old MAME? If MAME developers indeed share your views than that explains it all, you guys got very confused with your priorities and off the original tracks, thus you need to be set straight, in the name of preservation, before you have ruined it all.
MAME has never been about replacing a PCB in a cabinet. It has never been about running in a MAME cabinet. If I remember right, from the beginning it was always meant to interface with a PC. The MAMEdevs don't have arcade games in their garages like we do. It is a software project to them. I have discussed this with a few of them over the years. What you want, and don't get me wrong I would like it as well, is not what the developers are doing because it is not the goal of the project. MAME is meant to enjoy the games on a PC. People outside the team have produced encoders to allow us to connect most controls to our cabs. There are very few games that don't work as they are. 720 is a pretty bad example of a controller that needs to work in MAME. There are only a handful of people that even have one outside of a dedicated cab (when the repros are released, this may change). When there is enough demand, someone will write a diff to give that functionality, and the handful of people can compile MAME with the diff and happily use their controller. It is not going to be in the core MAME distribution. Period. Although they certainly don't always agree, Aaron and Haze are on the same page on this issue. Aaron is in charge now, and you are not going to change his mind on this. It is not something that you can demand.
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MAME has never been about replacing a PCB in a cabinet. It has never been about running in a MAME cabinet. If I remember right, from the beginning it was always meant to interface with a PC.
Preserving a game PCB directly implies emulator machine should be adequate substitute for the real PCB and so compatible with the rest of its cabinet, just like restoring/re-making (preserving) an engine of some old car is a failure if at the end it does not fit with the rest of the car.
MAME is meant to enjoy the games on a PC.
That is supposed to be a side-effect.
It is not going to be in the core MAME distribution. Period.
I promise you it will be *back* in MAME, unless you can convince me why integral functionality of the game PCB should not be properly preserved? You think that would be some sort of hack, or is something not worth documenting?
Aaron is in charge now, and you are not going to change his mind on this. It is not something that you can demand.
Demand? It's a mutiny!
Still, Aaron would surely agree with me. Let's ask him?
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Preserving a game PCB directly implies emulator machine should be adequate substitute for the real PCB and so compatible with the rest of its cabinet, just like restoring/re-making (preserving) an engine of some old car is a failure if at the end it does not fit with the rest of the car.
They are not mutually inclusive. Preserving the game PCB means its documented how it works so it can be fixed/replaced/remade. Think of MAME as a blue print for the engine, not the engine itself. Its been said many times and in many ways, the ability to play the games is just a great byproduct.
If you really want to use the engine example; say MAME is the engine and it fits and everything. But the controls are the ignition wires, yeah the engine works great but the engine builder doesnt have anything to do with making the ignition wires or spark plugs.Still such a terrible example.
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.
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Let's examine this further.... What if someone designed some classic controllers, put a lot of money, time and effort into making them just perfect to be put on their cabinets where they fit perfectly, and overall made a classic setup only to find a horrendous website where some PUNK KID built some bastardized, gaudy, f'tard of a contraption that allowed for all of these specialty controllers to be built into wood, that supposedly spun around so the end use (the same punk kid, of course) could try and play these games? How exactly would you feel? Who's the dumbass now?
Firstly, SAINT, Id like to say that its quite depressing that I have to deal with such language as ftard, and dumbass in the above quote (I also tire of seeing Asshat ).. yet the smallest hint of an insult without any foul language that got aimed at Haze by another member, was scolded.
As a result, Im hugely tempted to blast back twice as bad at the poster(s).. if not take it to a physical level. I should not be put in that position.
While my viewpoints are harsh and strong at times, I try very hard not to be foul.
Most Foul replies from me usually come After several have been slung my way.
It's ALL perspective now, isn't it?
As for your Pathetic example, its... well, its something only an 8 yr old would think made logical sense.
Quite simply, if the Developers who created Starwars had their choice on coming over to play it on my fugly WillyWonka Prototype, or on a Beautiful clean-cut cabinet with NO starwars yoke... the choice would Obviously, that even though the pretty cab looks nice... their game will Not play correctly as they designed it to play... and so wont enjoy the experience at all.
While the Proto was not pretty, it did exactly as it was designed to do. To allow a person to experience these treasures of the past as Accurately as possible, using the Correct controllers.
While sideart and cabinet shapes are cool additions... they are mostly decorative. Where as PCB, Controls, Force Feedback, and Speakers, are all ESSENTIALS for making the game operate as was designed. Any deviations from this, and you are Not representing the game correctly... and will easily Piss off any Game Developers involved in those games. Where as a simple cabinet shape isnt going to deter them at all.
In fact, most Devs would easily be proud and impressed that someone actually valued their creations to the point of reproducing controllers from scratch just to be able to play them right. Where as people like Yourself (and Haze), who dont Value their creations as they made them, they wouldnt care one bit about your "pretty cab" and your Lacking "Preservation" efforts.
On the positive side, if it's as easy to code in your switch to make it work, find out the code from when it did work, code the switch in so it works now too, recompile and make it happen, cap'n! If it is really as easy as coding the switch, then do it. It ain't like your launching rockets or anything. It's not finding the cosign of Pluto or whatever. It's just a switch like you said.
There is no reason the switch cant be plugged into mame in the first place... like every other switch it supports. The Hackjob is BS, and so are the excuses.
Just because you cant drive Nolan Bushnell's car with a manual shifter, does not mean you should have the right to Hack up HIS car to install manual transmission, And then after doing so, tell him and others that IF they want to use a manual shifter, you should RE-install it yourself.
Simply Pathetic.
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I played 720 again after all these years for five minutes, well four minutes as it took 60 secs to locate the rom and delete it forever. It is the most moronic game Atari ever created next to Kangaroo.
Well, here we have a perfect example.
You played 720 with mame with WHAT Controller? Ohh yeah, probably an analog joystick. And then based on that poorly playing experience, you decided it was a trash. But, How different would your opinion of the game be with a Real 720 controller? You dont know. Did you ever get good at the game in the arcade? Nope. You dont even remember it.
Im not a huge fan of 720, but I HAVE played it with a real controller (Recently), and it was fun this way. It was very difficult / challenging, and I had a real hard time making it far... But, my brother, and a collector I hang with, are Excellent at the game, and pull off amazing stunts and incredible precision under pressure. Its fun just watching them play it.
Another prime example of improper controls making a Bad impression is Sinistar.
You simply Cant play this game without a 49 way stick or mechanically equivalent stick. Its an Awesome game, but worthless without the real controller. Just as much as Crystal Castles cant be played correctly with a D-Pad either.
To Preserve these games, means to preserve how they play. How the games difficulty is balanced...etc.
Its not hard to understand people like Haze, who dont understand good game design, and make games more like point and click movies rather than challenging experiences. There hasnt been more than a handful of games worthy of buying in like the last +15 years... and its mostly developers like Haze who are to blame for it.
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Firstly, SAINT, Id like to say that its quite depressing that I have to deal with such language as ftard, and dumbass in the above quote (I also tire of seeing Asshat ).. yet the smallest hint of an insult without any foul language that got aimed at Haze by another member, was scolded.
I've always found the best way to avoid people calling me an ftard, dumbass and asshat is to not act like one.
But thats just me.
Nice to see you have as big a problem with how Saint moderates this board you enjoy as you do with how the devs develop their emulator you enjoy,
As a result, Im hugely tempted to blast back twice as bad at the poster(s).. if not take it to a physical level.
Physical level? You going to beat up your teddy bear and pretend its a BYOACER cupcake??
Oh, and quick word to Haze. On behalf of the vast majority of people around here who love MAME and appreciate your efforts, please keep up the hard work....as it REALLY seems to piss this guy off :D
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is to not act like one.
Well, you just did.
Having a difference of Opinions is not grounds for verbal abuse.
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Having a difference of Opinions is not grounds for verbal abuse.
Its not hard to understand people like Haze, who dont understand good game design...
and its mostly developers like Haze who are to blame for it.
::)
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Let's examine this further.... What if someone designed some classic controllers, put a lot of money, time and effort into making them just perfect to be put on their cabinets where they fit perfectly, and overall made a classic setup only to find a horrendous website where some PUNK KID built some bastardized, gaudy, f'tard of a contraption that allowed for all of these specialty controllers to be built into wood, that supposedly spun around so the end use (the same punk kid, of course) could try and play these games? How exactly would you feel? Who's the dumbass now?
Firstly, SAINT, Id like to say that its quite depressing that I have to deal with such language as ftard, and dumbass in the above quote (I also tire of seeing Asshat ).. yet the smallest hint of an insult without any foul language that got aimed at Haze by another member, was scolded.
As a result, Im hugely tempted to blast back twice as bad at the poster(s).. if not take it to a physical level. I should not be put in that position.
While my viewpoints are harsh and strong at times, I try very hard not to be foul.
Most Foul replies from me usually come After several have been slung my way.
It's ALL perspective now, isn't it?
As for your Pathetic example, its... well, its something only an 8 yr old would think made logical sense.
Quite simply, if the Developers who created Starwars had their choice on coming over to play it on my fugly WillyWonka Prototype, or on a Beautiful clean-cut cabinet with NO starwars yoke... the choice would Obviously, that even though the pretty cab looks nice... their game will Not play correctly as they designed it to play... and so wont enjoy the experience at all.
While the Proto was not pretty, it did exactly as it was designed to do. To allow a person to experience these treasures of the past as Accurately as possible, using the Correct controllers.
While sideart and cabinet shapes are cool additions... they are mostly decorative. Where as PCB, Controls, Force Feedback, and Speakers, are all ESSENTIALS for making the game operate as was designed. Any deviations from this, and you are Not representing the game correctly... and will easily Piss off any Game Developers involved in those games. Where as a simple cabinet shape isnt going to deter them at all.
In fact, most Devs would easily be proud and impressed that someone actually valued their creations to the point of reproducing controllers from scratch just to be able to play them right. Where as people like Yourself (and Haze), who dont Value their creations as they made them, they wouldnt care one bit about your "pretty cab" and your Lacking "Preservation" efforts.
On the positive side, if it's as easy to code in your switch to make it work, find out the code from when it did work, code the switch in so it works now too, recompile and make it happen, cap'n! If it is really as easy as coding the switch, then do it. It ain't like your launching rockets or anything. It's not finding the cosign of Pluto or whatever. It's just a switch like you said.
There is no reason the switch cant be plugged into mame in the first place... like every other switch it supports. The Hackjob is BS, and so are the excuses.
Just because you cant drive Nolan Bushnell's car with a manual shifter, does not mean you should have the right to Hack up HIS car to install manual transmission, And then after doing so, tell him and others that IF they want to use a manual shifter, you should RE-install it yourself.
Simply Pathetic.
So when you call someone a d-bag it's ok? More of your logic?
And don't threaten people asshat.
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I've always found the best way to avoid people calling me an ftard, dumbass and asshat is to not act like one.
Well, you just did.
Wow, what a thought provoking and intellectually charged reply. It shall stand in the annals of intriguing powerhouse responses for all eternity :applaud:
And such a busy guy too with writing a better emulator than mame.
Did you take time off from working on how to one-inch-punch forum members down your internet connection to type that response??
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Simply Pathetic.
If ever there was a quote that BEGGED to be that person's custom title ....
;)
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and with some kind words ask them to help in your endeavor. Raising hell in this place is, not the most practical thing to do, and it puts our words in jeopardy.
When a Dev gives you attitude from the start, asking them Nicely for something they dont even understand the value of, isnt going to change things much. In fact, in the past, I have asked very nicely, and even pledged money and or custom built controllers.
And, Im not "Raising Hell". Im posting my genuine Opinions about the state of Preservation. There is Nothing wrong with that.
Nor does my Opinion put Anyone else opinions or the mame project in danger. Mame does what it wants to do, Period... even if that means hacking something to bits.
In fact, more people should stand up to make their opinions known. The Yie Ar Kungfu isnt the best example... but it was an example of enough opinions made known that changes were submitted. Its just plain sad that it took so much effort to get such a small change instigated... in the interest of better preservation.
Edit:
Btw, thanks for the Nice reply.
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Its not hard to understand people like Haze, who dont understand good game design...
and its mostly developers like Haze who are to blame for it.
These are Opinions. And frankly, many people would agree with them.
Abusive, is more about when you outright call a person names. Though yes, you can be abusive without using such tactics. I would not consider my quote to be abusive. They certainly are not peaches and cream, but they are not very toothy either.
So when you call someone a d-bag it's ok? More of your logic?
And don't threaten people asshat.
Did I? No I did not. Re-Read.
And as for physicality, It was meant that if people intend to use fighting words, then its easy to expect that if there is poor moderation of it, its very possible that a real fight may come to terms in some future date.
Ill be the first to say that Im very good at keeping myself in check... but, that if someone gets in my face and starts hurling insults, I cant guarantee I would walk away. Nobody would... hence, nobody in their right mind, is gona flap their lips unless they are prepared for the possible consequences of their actions.
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Whos the D-Bag in this scenario?
???
Maybe it doesn't count with you using capital letters all the time? :angel:
EDIT: Typo
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Dudes, take it easy on my poor Percocet addled brain ...
Edit - seriously, I can't focus well enough to clean up this thread right now. Chill please?
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Sorry Saint. I'll stop and let it blow up without me.
How about a trade? We'll play nice if you finally spill the beans on your gameroom! :cheers:
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If threats of physical violence don't get Xiaou2 booted, I don't know what will.
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Xiaou2, let me know what was the last version where you could map input to authentic controller and what version you want it back in, also it would be helpful if you can track down what are the relevant files need changing. -- Were those spinner(s) originally mapped to mouse axes, and so are you converting quadrature encoding to PC mouse protocol, or whatever else is going on there - explain wiring/adapter between the joystick and PC please. Perhaps start a new thread.
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"Post hell here we come...."
X2: Nobody is calling you any funny names.
........
I'm going to have to disagree with that. Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread. Pretty clearly calling him a ---meecrob---. (The search function even suggests it.) This happened well before this latest blow up and searching the term, it shows up in a couple of other threads, too. Maybe I should have reported it, but I'd like to think that we can disagree like adults.
I can see the points of both sides of this thread. But I don't think either side is going to be persuaded to the others view anytime soon. Time to cool off indeed.
Edit to add: This post is the first time I've seen the naughty word filter in action. I honestly thought that posters were using those terms themselves! Learn something new every day.
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I've only skimmed part of the thread so I apologise if I'm repeating things that have already been said. But here goes anyway.
Haze, if I understand correctly, the underlying theme of your posts is that the mamedevs are struggling to get new recruits. That's not surprising. The problem with MAME, as with any large software project, is that the barrier to entry for new developers gets progressively higher over time. It's become a huge application that has been continually developed by a team of people over 13 years. Therefore any prospective new developer has 13 years of catching up to do. Obviously if the code is clean, properly structured, and well commented then that will help. But only up to a point.
If you want more coders to become part of the mamedev team then realistically you need to offer them an incentive to justify the considerable time and effort required to get up to speed. Allowing them to implement their favourite missing feature would perhaps provide such an incentive. However, asking them to implement yet another obscure variant of mahjong probably won't. If you dogmatically insist that MAME must be kept pure in some arbitrary way, and that nothing can be added to the program that doesn't involve "documenting the hardware" then they're probably going to walk away.
Of course I agree that it's unreasonable to expect you and the other mamedevs to work on areas of the program that don't interest you. It's your own spare time and you're under no obligation to do anything. But I also think the mamedevs are shooting themselves in the foot by applying arbitrary restrictions on what features can appear in the official build. If prospective developers are willing and able to give up their time to implement missing features then why not let them. Once a new developer has gone to the effort of understanding MAME in order to implement his favourite missing feature, he might then be willing to work on areas of the project that you consider more important. The more people who understand the inner workings of MAME the better.
And yes I realise that there's nothing to stop someone from creating their own separate fork of the project. But that's hardly ideal. Every time the official MAME build is updated, all the forked versions have to be updated as well. That leads to a massive and unnecessary duplication of effort.
The sad fact is that several excellent MAME forks have fallen by the wayside over the years. For example AdvanceMAME, which you described as a failure earlier in the thread. I disagree. IMHO it remains the best version of MAME to date and would still be my first choice if I was building a cab with a CRT monitor. I think it's a tragedy that the features of AdvanceMAME were not incorporated into the official build.
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"Post hell here we come...."
X2: Nobody is calling you any funny names.
........
I'm going to have to disagree with that. Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread. Pretty clearly calling him a ---meecrob---. (The search function even suggests it.) This happened well before this latest blow up and searching the term, it shows up in a couple of other threads, too. Maybe I should have reported it, but I'd like to think that we can disagree like adults.
I can see the points of both sides of this thread. But I don't think either side is going to be persuaded to the others view anytime soon. Time to cool off indeed.
I agree. I think some of the attacks on Xiaou2 in this thread have been uncalled for.
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For example AdvanceMAME, which you described as a failure earlier in the thread. I disagree. IMHO it remains the best version of MAME to date and would still be my first choice if I was building a cab with a CRT monitor. I think it's a tragedy that the features of AdvanceMAME were not incorporated into the official build.
I think the difference is between the end users v. the programmers and that the two groups often don't have the same desired outcomes.
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I'm going to have to disagree with that. Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.
Its a nickname, like calling a fat guy slim, but we aren't being ironic. I'll start calling him deathpuncher instead if you're ok with it.
I think the difference is between certain end users v. the programmers and that the two groups often don't have the same desired outcomes.
Best summary ever, but I had to edit it a tad, hope you don't mind.
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I'm going to have to disagree with that. Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.
Its a nickname, like calling a fat guy slim, but we aren't being ironic. I'll start calling him deathpuncher instead if you're ok with it.
....
It's childish name calling. It is done to be deliberately insulting. And no, I'm not OK with it.
We can refer to each other with abbreviated names for ease of use without being insulting. Xiaou2 is pretty hard to remember how to spell but X2 or X would get the point across with out the deliberate insult.
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I think the difference is between certain end users v. the programmers and that the two groups often don't have the same desired outcomes.
Best summary ever, but I had to edit it a tad, hope you don't mind.
Works for me. Actually, it's great addition.
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I'm going to have to disagree with that. Several people have called Xiaou2 "Xiaou2" in this thread.
2 people is hardly the same as several. ::)
And, yep, I was deliberately insulting him, the same way that we have insulted each other for years now.
And, nope, I don't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- if it is OK with you or not.
:afro:
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Dudes, take it easy on my poor Percocet addled brain ...
Edit - seriously, I can't focus well enough to clean up this thread right now. Chill please?
I think I'll take this advice and let Saint enjoy his meds. Pushing this further helps no one.
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Haze, if I understand correctly, the underlying theme of your posts is that the mamedevs are struggling to get new recruits.
That's new Haze/MAME, old Haze was very different.
Haze, June 03, 2005: - "And no, we don't care about popularity, I don't think anybody on the dev team would care if everybody started using vantage to play their games, or raine, or anything else providing they left us alone to develop." - "...MAMEs popularity is a large problem."
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37734.120 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37734.120)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37734.280 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37734.280)
If you dogmatically insist that MAME must be kept pure in some arbitrary way, and that nothing can be added to the program that doesn't involve "documenting the hardware" then they're probably going to walk away.
Dogmatically insist that MAME must be kept pure in some arbitrary way.
Hehee, that describes it, however "documenting the hardware" is apperantly not what they're after anymore. Current documentation says 720 uses 'analog joystick', which is false, and you see they obviously do not care.
Playing it on a PC is no more side-effect, it became intention and priority, which compromises their legal position, but to also *un-document* authentic controller in the same time shows they are not even preserving/emulating anymore, it is more correctly described as PORTING/CONVERTING games to PC. It's all up side down. It is users who now want accurate documentation while developers are hacking playability out of "modern hardware".
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2 people is hardly the same as several.
I see two groups of people, both disagree with Haze and supposed current view of MAME team, including you, but one group approves and the other disproves. -- To disprove what you do not agree with is 'honest feedback', but to (passively) approve what you do not agree with out of some (prior) gratefulness, or whatever, is not really in anyone's interest, as they will hardly get back on track if they are not aware they went astray.
Do you believe/approve with this same blind fate/passivity everything your government is doing as well(?) To be a "patriot" is one thing, but if your empire strikes back at innocent people and destroys planets, then being a patriot does not make you a good guy or on the right side anymore. Sometimes the right thing to do is to raise a rebellion, defeat Darth Vader and throw Emperor down the shaft. -- Don't be such a stormtrooper!
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Dude... The shark is thoroughly jumped now. The empire is safe. Princess Leia has been rescued.
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Dude... The shark is thoroughly jumped now. The empire is safe. Princess Leia has been rescued.
You're supposed to be resting! Take another happy pill and I'm sure you'll realize that these are not the droids you're looking for. :laugh:
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Jump the shark?....What does the "Fonz" have to do with this?.... You guys are so mean!
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correct, controls are external. The way external things interact with the PCB emulation is not part of the project goal.
Handling input is essential and very much internal part of any game's functionality. Monitor is not part of PCB, so it is fake scan-lines, stretching, blurring and filtering that is EXTERNAL (unnecessary).
There is nothing conflicting about these statements. Playing the games is a side-effect of correct emulation. To obtain correct emulation it is necessary to have people using MAME. It's a CYCLE.
"Playing the games" is the same thing as "people using MAME" in the next sentence. It can either be necessity or side-effect, not both, one excludes the other. It is either intentional or coincidental, conflict is in relation to potential legal liability.
You've clearly not played many games, pretty much every PS3 game, and an awful lot of 360 games have severe tearing. You might not like it, but it's a fact.
GT5 for example has it almost all the time.
http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103 (http://uk.gamespot.com/ps3/driving/granturismo52/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-57294186&pid=941103)
Other people in that thread, and I, dispute there is any tearing. Simple sync to monitor refresh solves all the tearing problems, so the guy reporting it was possibly having some issues due to video conversion or NTSC/PAL settings, or was simply referring to some other visual artifact as "tearing". -- One of us is not telling the truth, I mean you.
The games DON'T sync to vblank, there are many many games which don't. I have / have rented over 100 xbox / PS3 titles and I can tell you at least half of them DON'T sync, at all. Another one with REALLY bad tearing is Saint's Row, on the 360 tears every time you turn. Having worked in the industry I know the effect, I know what causes is, and there are plenty of developers reluctant to sync to vblank these days, especially on the PS3.
Your attitude here absolutely stinks. You refuse to believe what you are being told, no matter how clearly it is explained.
You come up with your own BS reasons about why things are done, just as X2 has attempted to do, despite being told, and having things clearly explained by me, one of the people who ACTUALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE DECISIONS.
Which part of 'if you want change, create your own build' do you not understand?
Do I care if people are using old versions? Not really, their choice, they ARE missing out on a lot of other improvements, but if it works for them, it works for them. Maybe not being directly involved in the project people are missing out on the astronomical number of fixes made all the time, fixed based on user feedback from running the emulator and finding bugs in the actual emulation, which make it very hard for me to trust something as old as 0.90, 0.106 or whatever else to offer a solid level of emulation. Part of that user feedback may well have been that it was impossible to test 720 properly on a PC due to the absurd controller requirements in older builds which was a sentiment obviously shared by the development team.
If you plan on ripping out the control scheme which actually allows me to run and test 720 on a normal PC, which is what 99% of the devs own, I will oppose that change. Being able to test and develop something, on normal hardware is a REQUIREMENT. Being able to hook up the original controller IS NOT A REQUIREMENT.
If you plan on adding excessive configuration options Aaron will almost certainly oppose / reject your change, he's expressed before he wants to keep command line switches etc. down to a minimum.
As I've said, and will continue to say, the ability to hook up the original controller has nothing to do with the accuracy of the emulation. Being able to test it on a standard PC, to ensure the accuracy of emulation has everything to do with the accuracy of emulation.
You can quote me all you want, the quotes you've used were my way of attempting to encourage users to look elsewhere, use other emulators. While I like having everything in MAME, I don't believe a MAME monoculture is healthy, for one, it means morons keep bugging us about how they want specific features, such as .. 720 controls .. whereas if there was more choice people could just go where the choice was. If you hadn't noticed, I've been saying 'create your own build' quite often. When popularity means people expect MAME to do everything, even things the developers don't really want to do then it IS a problem, and people SHOULD be looking elsewhere.
There are MANY areas in which MAME hasn't decided to go with what is 'popular'.
There is still no official netplay (although at this point, providing the solution was reasonable like ClientServerMAME it does provide a good way to test deterministic behavior and state support)
There are no destructive image filters (eagle, 2xSAI)
There is no fake 3d acceleration on things like PSX, N64, Saturn hardware
There are no 'fake' systems with purposely overclocked CPUs to eliminate slowdowns
There are no 'fake' commandline options to run all games at 60fps internally, screen tear is considered a better option.
There are no fake transparency effects on 2D fighters
There are no fake macro inputs to make fighting game moves easier to pull off
There is no fancy windows GUI
There is no built-in force feedback (it's not cross-platform / device friendly)
There is no option to replace game sounds with custom MP3s and samples
There is no option to run the 'EmuDX' versions of the games
If all people want are these features, they should look elsewhere likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.
BUT, some features to make MAME attractive are needed, because as I've said more times than I care to count now, if there was NO testing, and NO userbase, then well.. the accuracy of emulation would probably be back in the 0.2x dark-ages. It's called striking a balance, ensuring that things CAN be developed and will get tested. It's also true that some of the non-essential options in MAME are just pet projects of the developers. The entire image filtering system we do have it just an experiment from Aaron. It's his code, and his part of the project, why shouldn't he be allowed to do a few things he wants to do there. It's an interesting piece of tech albeit one that didn't hold his interest for long.
So .. In the politest possible way the only thing I can say is:
If you don't like it then create your own build, and shut the #### up.
If you wish to continually talk down on the development team as if we've made some kind of mistake that's your problem, not ours, your condescending attitude does not help your cause, at all. You are nobody.
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Haze, I think many people have expressed their gratitude for your work.. many more than those who have complained or picked on the mame dev team. As humans, I do think we tend to notice the negative more than the positive. The hand full of people who complain probably stand out a lot more than the rest. Either way, why get so heated about this whole debate? It's hard to tell how seriously you're taking it, but you seem pretty po'd about the xiaou guy. At the end of the day, I bet that guy doesn't even care what people say (notice how he ignores the comments he doesn't like). If you're not annoyed by all of this maybe I just read into your commenting too much, but I know this stuff tends to get poeple pretty aggravated. I just hope you realize that the rest of us think you're doing a great job, and that's probably worth more than one annoying guy. Many of us appreciate your work, and many of us wish we had the skills to help out.
dr phill -Shatered
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Haze, I think many people have expressed their gratitude for your work.. many more than those who have complained or picked on the mame dev team. As humans, I do think we tend to notice the negative more than the positive. The hand full of people who complain probably stand out a lot more than the rest. Either way, why get so heated about this whole debate? It's hard to tell how seriously you're taking it, but you seem pretty po'd about the xiaou guy. At the end of the day, I bet that guy doesn't even care what people say (notice how he ignores the comments he doesn't like). If you're not annoyed by all of this maybe I just read into your commenting too much, but I know this stuff tends to get poeple pretty aggravated. I just hope you realize that the rest of us think you're doing a great job, and that's probably worth more than one annoying guy. Many of us appreciate your work, and many of us wish we had the skills to help out.
dr phill -Shatered
I'm not that pissed off, I think you overestimate the amount of time I spend writing the replies, I type fast and can be getting on with other things at the same time, usually coding / fixing bugs / working on things I care about ;-)
It just astounds me that there can be that much misinformation out there, and so little respect for the wishes of the actual developers involved in the project from certain parties who aren't involved at all but still seem to think they know everything. I'm far from saying everybody here is a hairbrained moron!
If support for the original controls ever happens, it will happen because somebody did it properly, in a minimal impact way while leaving the existing functionality alone completely. There will be no guarantee it works, and if people moan about it, then support will probably just be ripped straight out. It's not something I'm going to lose any sleep over because I know the important stuff has been done, documented and preserved and the changes being asked for can be made long after the dev team hit their 70s and everything is controlled with the mind alone ;-)
In the meantime, I'll continue to work on the stuff that actually matters, and needs doing, and yes, that includes Mahjong games.
..and for anybody who really still thinks classic style games died in the 80s, there are even some interesting ones from the 00s, oh, and this won't work until 0.141u1.
[MAME] Mr. Kicker (c)200? SemiCom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gLhkfhleHw#)
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The games DON'T sync to vblank, there are many many games which don't... Having worked in the industry I know the effect, I know what causes is, and there are plenty of developers reluctant to sync to vblank these days, especially on the PS3.
Ok, believe you, I suppose no one can make their game run at full speed anymore, how embarrassing. You know, there is a proper way to solve both choppiness and tearing in the same time, even with drastic and uneven slowdowns.
You come up with your own BS reasons about why things are done, just as X2 has attempted to do, despite being told, and having things clearly explained by me, one of the people who ACTUALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY OF THE DECISIONS.
It is about how and why things SHOULD be done, being involved only makes you responsible, not correct.
Which part of 'if you want change, create your own build' do you not understand?
I made the changes, I want them in mainstream MAME, do you mind?
If you plan on ripping out the control scheme which actually allows me to run and test 720 on a normal PC, which is what 99% of the devs own, I will oppose that change.
It's a spinner, you can test it with a MOUSE!
If you plan on adding excessive configuration options Aaron will almost certainly oppose / reject your change, he's expressed before he wants to keep command line switches etc. down to a minimum.
What the ...? I am talking about simple "MAP THE INPUT" thing. Press 'enter' over input control you want to re-map and then press desired key to map it to that key, or move a mouse to assign it to mouse axis (spinner/trackball), or move analog joystick to assign it to analog stick axis, or move 8-way arcade joystick wired via some adapter to whatever PC port to map that micro switch... and whatever else is there. -- Not only there is no need to remove any of those options, but DEFAULT mapping for 720 Degrees should be initialized to "spinner", that's where you DOCUMENT what kind of controls the game cabinet actually used.
As I've said, and will continue to say, the ability to hook up the original controller has nothing to do with the accuracy of the emulation.
Current MAME documents 720 as using 'analog stick', is that info accurate?
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...likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.
According to whom, according to what? Says where?
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...likewise if YOU want support for original controllers, you should look elsewhere too.
According to whom, according to what? Says where?
Well, as you seem to be objecting to, the people maintaining the code base. That is what you're objecting to, no?
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Well, as you seem to be objecting to, the people maintaining the code base. That is what you're objecting to, no?
I want to know where he draws those conclusions from.
He must have confused something, heard something wrong.
How about you, what do you think:
- preservation of a PCB is accurate even without reference to authentic controller?
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Well, as you seem to be objecting to, the people maintaining the code base. That is what you're objecting to, no?
I want to know where he draws those conclusions from.
He must have confused something, heard something wrong.
How about you, what do you think:
- preservation of a PCB is accurate even without reference to authentic controller?
I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.
Troll-be-gone.
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.
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I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.
Troll-be-gone.
You're running your site wrong! :angry:
YOU'RE not running it right to meet YOUR OWN objectives! :hissy:
Do it my way!
My way is right!
Can't you see??? Why can't anyone else see?????? It's all wrong!!!!!!!!111!1111111 :angry: :hissy:
Quit telling me how I can do it myself how I want it! (and providing me and everyone else with it 99% there) You do it! You do it for me right now!!! :angry:
The oceans are starting to boil!1!!!
Worms are eating through my brain!!!
Make it stop!!!
It'll happen to us all!!!
Unless you do it my way!!! :angry: :dizzy: :angry:
Help me saint-Haze-MameDev, you're my only hope :droid
And I stubbed my toe yesterday!!!
And I got a booboo!!! and mommy wouldn't kiss it better!!!! :'(
It's not FAIR !!! :cry:
I hate you!!!! :cry:
WAH !!!111!!11!!!!!!1!!!!1!!!!!!!!11!!!1!!!111!!!1!!1111111!1111111111111!!!!!!!!!! :cry: :hissy: :'( :cry: :hissy:
stoopid dumm-Dumm pooPooo heds!
(and i'm the only one who knows how everything is supposed to be.)
(before anyone does anything, tell me first, and i'll tell you what direction to take your projects! the only way! the right way! don;t you dare do your own projects your way!)
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You left out R2. :droid
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You left out R2. :droid
heh - fix'd
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I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.
That's description of conflicting moral standards, not answer to my question.
Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?
It is not about what would you do, but whether you THINK preservation of game PCB can be considered accurate without reference to authentic controller?
Troll-be-gone.
Eat-my-shorts.
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That's description of conflicting moral standards, not answer to my question.
No, you're wrong.
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i swear this is even more painful than the whole USB vs LPT thread. It's like a train wreck... I just can't look away.
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I know....I can't stop reading. >:D
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I think if I don't like the direction MAME is heading I'll look elsewhere or try my hand at coding it myself. I'll even go so far as to plead my case as to what I wish they'd do. I wouldn't present myself with a sense of entitlement and demand they do what I want or tell them they're wrong. Whether or not they're meeting their stated goals is a subjective opinion.
That's description of conflicting moral standards, not answer to my question.
Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?
It is not about what would you do, but whether you THINK preservation of game PCB can be considered accurate without reference to authentic controller?
Troll-be-gone.
Eat-my-shorts.
This has to be the single best example of total and complete ignorance I have ever seen here that didn't involve somebody saying something bad about me.
;D
This guy seems to be made up of the best (read: most totally ---smurfing--- off-his-rocker-arrogant-ignorant-yet-entertaining) parts of Genesim, tommy, tranq (in all of his incarnations), MichiganClassicArcade and DigitalDJ.
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Go read his blog. It's golden. I love his allegorical stories about physics simulations.
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I can't believe there are this many replies to this topic, but no response as to whether or not anyone has gotten 2 aimtracks to work with the M2 emulator ( a more relevant arcade controls topic)
Just sayin....
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i swear this is even more painful than the whole USB vs LPT thread. It's like a train wreck... I just can't look away.
You read this one? >:D
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=91845.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=91845.0)
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:laugh2:
Everybody did the bum rush to read the LCD thread.
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Let's not forget abarabaraba's last incarnation as driven-to-lunacy-man:
How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal? (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=105734.0)
USB vs PS/2 vs COM vs LPT (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=105987.0)
Those were gems as well.
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I just spent the past hour reading those two threads. Thanks a lot. :laugh:
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Kangaroo is a cute game. It was not by Atari, but by Sun Electronics.
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Let's not forget abarabaraba's last incarnation as driven-to-lunacy-man:
How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal? (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=105734.0)
USB vs PS/2 vs COM vs LPT (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=105987.0)
Those were gems as well.
You caught me. I wasted about 20 minutes reading the first one. Fortunately common sense prevailed this time and I stopped before wasting half the night in there. :)
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Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?
If you have done the work in changing the source code, why don't you release a diff here? Most of the people that want this functionality are on this forum. MAME doesn't support High Score saves either, but many of us compile our own versions using the Hi score diff released (and regularly updated) by a member here. The diff would probably be pretty easy to keep up to date with the MAME versions. I worked on the atarisys2 driver for a bit last night, and there have been major changes to MAME since the controls were changed in version .85u1. It compiles and shows DIAL in the tab menu, but it is not working. This is my first attempt at playing with the code, so I am sure there is a lot I am missing. Kinda fun playing with it though.
I am curious how many games actually have improper controls. The only other one I can think of right now is the Pole Position shifter, but you can just change the toggle settings for that one.
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If you have done the work in changing the source code, why don't you release a diff here?
For what version of MAME? Work was done long ago, by other people, I was only planning to adjust it for other versions, however...
...when I tried to find out in what version spinner mapping stopped working I discovered it all seem to work just fine in any version I tried, you only need to start MAME with "-mouse" option so the spinner gets mapped to mouse axis, just like with all the other trackball/spinner games.
I worked on the atarisys2 driver for a bit last night, and there have been major changes to MAME since the controls were changed in version .85u1. It compiles and shows DIAL in the tab menu, but it is not working.
Are you using authentic controller? Is your mouse enabled? What is not working?
I just fired it up again in MAME 131, both spinners work fine, I mean calibration spinner works too.
Try plain MAME version, if you start the game with "mame 720 -mouse" it should all be automatically mapped.
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If you have done the work in changing the source code, why don't you release a diff here?
For what version of MAME? Work was done long ago, by other people, I was only planning to adjust it for other versions, however...
...when I tried to find out in what version spinner mapping stopped working I discovered it all seem to work just fine in any version I tried, you only need to start MAME with "-mouse" option so the spinner gets mapped to mouse axis, just like with all the other trackball/spinner games.
Interesting ... I just had a look at the plans for the 720 controller to see if there was a reason for this particular change and couldn't see a reason why it wouldn't be handled as a spinner.
So, do I understand that it can be handled via "-mouse", so that any of the optical interfaces should work and no changes to MAME are required ?
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If I remember right, it was changed to simulate the feel of the original stick, which was spun around in a circle. A mouse doesn't give that feel.
The controller code was changed in .85u1, so you can dl the .85 source to see what it was originally. If newer versions work with a mouse, what doesn't work with a real controller?
It has been a while since I did a fresh MAME install, thanks for reminding me about enabling the mouse. I can't believe I didn't think of that...I didn't even -cc. :) If anyone has a 720 controller, please let me know if you can test it. I'll look at the plans tonight and try to figure out the difference. I think the original code was to save the direction you were facing since a spinner doesn't know position. I'll try to figure something out tonight. What other games have issues with real controls?
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If I remember right, it was changed to simulate the feel of the original stick, which was spun around in a circle. A mouse doesn't give that feel.
That makes some sense.
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Interesting ... I just had a look at the plans for the 720 controller to see if there was a reason for this particular change and couldn't see a reason why it wouldn't be handled as a spinner.
So, do I understand that it can be handled via "-mouse", so that any of the optical interfaces should work and no changes to MAME are required ?
The 720 joystick is unusual. It acts like a spinner but with additional hardware to keep track of exactly which direction the joystick is pointing in. A second encoder disk is attached to the joystick for this purpose. The second encoder disk only has two notches. The game uses the second encoder disk to determine the direction that the joystick is pointing.
(http://jstookey.com/arcade/720/2002-04-15-720-SECRET.JPG)
(http://jstookey.com/arcade/720/2002-04-15-720-SECRET2.JPG)
Using a mouse or a spinner lacks the directional aspect of the original joystick. Personally, I think that the way the Mame handles it now (as an analog joystick) is an excellent compromise between accuracy vs. usability, and is much better than using a regular spinner or a mouse.
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Thanks, I couldn't figure out what the "centering disk" was for. Interesting stuff and apparently more complex than I had considered after looking at the exploded view of the controller.
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Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"
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Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"
Done. Doesn't everyone realize that they can do that?
I'm guessing that sense jerryjanis has the 720 controller and has skate or die on his profile that he has played the game once or twice. Any opinion he shares is definitely from experience on original equipment and, to me, is qualified to give an "expert" opinion.
That being said some asshat one is going to come along and tell him he's wrong. :-\
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I think he's wrong. Everyone knows 720 was controlled with soviet grade micro-trolls
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Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"
They are going to port Mame to the XBOX 720? What about game room?
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Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"
They are going to port Mame to the XBOX 720? What about game room?
GameRoom closed :-\
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=107381.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=107381.0)
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Someone should rename the thread "The State of 720 Controls"
I think it derailed in just the nick of time. It was going nowhere fast. with any luck, we have a work around soon so those that actually have one of these controllers can use it on their cabs. I think that number is really small right now, but there is a repro being made, so that may change in the future. I still can't think of any other controllers that don't work with MAME, so if anyone knows, please list them.
I think this thread had a good effect though. I have wanted to dig into the MAME code for a long time, but never have. Now my interest is renewed, and hopefully I can help a little with the development - both for cab related stuff (I am really interested in the work being done on outputs), and for MAME in general. There is so much information in the source. It is really an incredible documentation effort.
The point about the analog controls being a perfect compromise really reinforces what Haze was saying. People can test the game with a pretty good approximation of how the game is supposed to feel, and they can do it with normal PC controllers. To me, it is not a big deal to compile the changes for features that are not supported in MAME, but they do need to be available.
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"Not a big deal?" The OEM controls, say enduro racer, is run on pots. Not just one mind you but multiple, the support just isn"t there. This is considered
a HUGE deal..... so far as a drop in replacement goes.
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If it's just pots, then are there not several interfaces which will give you an analog axis on which to map mame controllers?
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More detail on the 720 controller and Mame can be found in this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=97029.40 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=97029.40)
u-rebelscum had some interesting points to make about it. So did a few other trolls.... >:D
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If it's just pots, then are there not several interfaces which will give you an analog axis on which to map mame controllers?
Right you are..... what was I thinking?
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At the risk of getting dragged into the argument...
As Haze says, people are free to modify the MAME code as they see fit. Just because someone wants MAME to fit their needs, does not mean it would meet the needs of the people doing the actual coding. Demanding it meets your needs and not the needs of the coders is bizzare. So to get back to Haze's original topic... If you want it done, recruit someone with interest to code something up cleanly that can be maintained in the baseline code. No current Devs have any interest, and continually berating them is not getting you anywhere.
Read this thread, for my thoughts on adding shifter controls:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699)
Or for further fun on where insults and ranting get you:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=231686&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=231686&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=234593&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=234593&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
Unfortunately for some, I no longer have any interest in coding something I will never use. Too much abuse, no pleasure.
People have to remember, MAMEdev are not going to maintain per games hacks, beyond the plenty that are already there that we are slowly working to remove. So a maintainable system needs to be developed. I believe a fake/real control system could be added similar to the system I mentioned for shifters. But someone needs to be interested to do it. I will repeat that NO CURRENT MAMEdev has any interest. So let's see some good clean code from interested people. (Yes that means learning the MAME UI, Input, Input Port and driver code. As a hint, the easiest way would be to create a callback system in the input code, similar to the Input Port code.)
D.
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At the risk of getting dragged into the argument...
As Haze says, people are free to modify the MAME code as they see fit. Just because someone wants MAME to fit their needs, does not mean it would meet the needs of the people doing the actual coding. Demanding it meets your needs and not the needs of the coders is bizzare. So to get back to Haze's original topic... If you want it done, recruit someone with interest to code something up cleanly that can be maintained in the baseline code. No current Devs have any interest, and continually berating them is not getting you anywhere.
Read this thread, for my thoughts on adding shifter controls:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699)
Or for further fun on where insults and ranting get you:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=231686&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=231686&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=234593&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=234593&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1)
Unfortunately for some, I no longer have any interest in coding something I will never use. Too much abuse, no pleasure.
People have to remember, MAMEdev are not going to maintain per games hacks, beyond the plenty that are already there that we are slowly working to remove. So a maintainable system needs to be developed. I believe a fake/real control system could be added similar to the system I mentioned for shifters. But someone needs to be interested to do it. I will repeat that NO CURRENT MAMEdev has any interest. So let's see some good clean code from interested people. (Yes that means learning the MAME UI, Input, Input Port and driver code. As a hint, the easiest way would be to create a callback system in the input code, similar to the Input Port code.)
D.
Hi Derrick,
Going back to the original post on this thread, it sounds like MameDEV is pretty much a bare bones group these days according to Haze, and you need new blood to survive.
Would it be fair to sum up your thoughts as: "We don't have the resources to explore these avenues right now, we are simply focusing on we feel is most important right now. We would be happy to integrate this and other project ideas, and if we get the right interested individuals to join and work on this, we would be happy have this integrated into MAME."
The reason I ask is that you sound pretty open to the idea of further exploration into certain project changes, but you just don't see it getting done with the way things are right now. Previously in this thread, I was getting a strong vibe that no major changes were welcome, which is why I believe the hornet's nest got so stirred. I'm trying to bring some piece to this thread, mostly because the whole thing is irritating me a lot.
This whole thread could have been a softball pitch to do some recruiting to join the MameDEV team, it sucks to see that it probably only chased some potiental developers away.
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Would it be fair to sum up your thoughts as: "We don't have the resources to explore these avenues right now, we are simply focusing on we feel is most important right now. We would be happy to integrate this and other project ideas, and if we get the right interested individuals to join and work on this, we would be happy have this integrated into MAME."
That is pretty much what has always been said. MAMEdev coders work on what they want, when they want to. It is a hobby, not a company. We are lucky that it is as structured as it is.
If interested individuals can understand the meaning/purpose of this post and can write code that meets the core coding standards, then it would be seriously looked at.
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=232699&Forum=news&Words=IPT_GEARSHIFT&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=231686&Search=true#Post232699)
Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work. Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users. That is not acceptable. Heck, we already get complaints about Hard Drivin's shifter which is implemented properly as a joystick. Making shifting unplayable for 99.99% of users. In that case though, the dev's can still test properly, but don't care how easy it is to shift while playing the game. Well, actually, it is not that we don't care, it is that we have no interest/time to code something like I suggest in the link above.
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Finding a safer, easier way to dump the board would have to the jumping off point. Speaking for myself [and other OEM collectors]
send it to who?... and MAYBE get it back, working?.... Unacceptable.
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Don't be hysterical, this is not MAME forum, so it is logical absurd to suggest anything I say here is even directed at MAME. No demands, I did it myself already. Now, why in the world would I keep these changes to myself while MAME needs fixing and is looking for developers in the same time, what sense does that make?
Nobody is saying keep the changes to yourself.
What's being said, by myself, and now Derrek is that simply leaving it in a state where the project developers can't use it / test it / maintain it isn't acceptable.
If you've made the changes, create yourself a website, put the source, and a build that runs 720 up, document however you're meant to wire the thing up to a PC in the first place (which certainly has nothing to do with the way it would wire up to a PCB), and be done with it.
Let's face it. If somebody has a 720 controller on their cabinet and needs a MAME build to suit it then they're not going to be playing much else with it anyway, nor are they likely to need to upgrade / change it, ever. It's very much the definition of where you'd need a single specialist build for a single specialist purpose.
The project developers on the other hand need something easy and accessible all the time.
My original post was more about the development of drivers, emulation of hardware and such, which is an area that certainly needs work if some hardware is to be emulated properly at all. This is an area which people, with the required reverse engineering skills can easily contribute too without having a huge impact on the rest of the project. It's incremental work, and on most hardware you can learn as you go, and improve the code as you understand things.
It's descended into people talking about major subsystem rewrites which is really of less interest to me. There are also not many devs working on such an area, but it's also an area which has a huge impact across the entire project, so everybody else contributing has to be happy with the changes, and they have to be of a very high standard from day 1 _OR_ it needs to be developed outside the main tree, over a period of time and become proven established code before it's merged in, especially if it's coming from outside the project.
My personal view is that rewriting sub-systems might make MAME more appealing to certain groups (and could also annoy other immensely) but ultimately it isn't documenting anything new, or vital. It's not revealing important test cases that we need to run on PCBs while they still work, or helping to improve the actual _emulation_ of anything. MAME is an emulator and my concern was that very little progress was being seen in that core area, the rest (including the UI and input subsystem) is coating, important, but capable of supporting development, and not in need of critical change which could destabilize the project and get in the way of development.
Since the post (maybe because it's been the Christmas period) there have actually been quite a lot of very good and worthwhile contributions from some of the older devs, which was good to see. Still no real fresh blood, but at least a couple of problems were solved and the emulation of a number of titles visibly improved.
At this point you've got views from Me, Derrek, and by proxy of another poster, Aaron.
That's the former lead co-ordinator, a guy who has done a lot of work on the input system recently, and the current lead co-ordinator.
If you still think you're being lied to about things then I don't know what to say, you're beyond help?
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Interesting ... I just had a look at the plans for the 720 controller to see if there was a reason for this particular change and couldn't see a reason why it wouldn't be handled as a spinner.
So, do I understand that it can be handled via "-mouse", so that any of the optical interfaces should work and no changes to MAME are required ?
I tried about dozen binaries from mame60 to mame131 and mouse would be automatically mapped to controls if mouse was enabled, which I believe directly means authentic controller can be used, and so that this functionality was there all along, no changes required. -- Yes, this is completely absurd considering there is 8 years worth of threads on this forum with people arguing about it, so I am too kind of waiting someone will explain what in the world is going on.
Objection still stands that *as a historical document* MAME should be clear actual 720 PCB used spinner.
If newer versions work with a mouse, what doesn't work with a real controller?
I have no idea.
Btw, I too think we should get off this thread with 720 stuff.
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Objection still stands that *as a historical document* MAME should be clear actual 720 PCB used spinner.
Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).
What say you to that ?
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Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).
What say you to that ?
His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.
I say accurate documentation, and I actually really mean it.
I say playing it on a PC is side-effect, and I actually really mean it. That's the difference.
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Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).
What say you to that ?
His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.
Problem is that there is no way to tie X and Y together (as they have to be) with a mouse so that you can even TEST it reasonably, UNLESS you have an original controller.
Or, if there is, then please enlighten me (as others here already have).
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Except that somebody with an actual 720 controller has already explained the difference and lent his judgement ... it LOOKS like a spinner based on the optical inputs, but the direction of the stick matters (and is handled by the second encoder wheel).
What say you to that ?
His judgment is about playability for average PC user, I'm talking about accurate documentation. -- I'm not sure what is your point, main encoder input is mapped to Mouse X, calibration encoder is mapped to Mouse Y, and it all works. I am not saying you can play it properly with mouse this way, you can't, but you can TEST it as if you had original controller.
Problem is that there is no way to tie X and Y together (as they have to be) with a mouse so that you can even TEST it reasonably, UNLESS you have an original controller.
Or, if there is, then please enlighten me (as others here already have).
Move X axis - character rotates, it works.
Move Y axis - if first time after game starts it sets character to face North, and any other time it rotates (corrects) character towards facing North by one notch, it works. (In ideal circumstances this input is unnecessary, I think it's only when people start playing rough with the cabinet encoder might skip a notch, but otherwise calibrating only at the start of the game would most likely be sufficient.)
Hold on, I'll start a new thread about 720 controller when I finish replaying here, or you go on and do it if you want.
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From the controller code before the switch to analog input, it looks like both encoders were hooked up to the same input, and the direction of the character is kept by the second encoder. You really do need a real controller to test that I think. A normal mouse wouldn't let you play the game as it was intended to be played, so the analog solution really is the only way most developers could playtest the game for emulation bugs. I am going to try to find a controller. I don't remember liking the game too much, but I am a sucker for unique controls.
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In 720, The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.
A spinner has no start and stop points. But a 720 spinner has a stick that points in certain directions...
If the stick was pointing down when you started the game up, but the character on screen was pointing Upwards... the control wouldnt be accurate to the user.
To solve this, they use a 2nd disc to see where the Up position of the stick would be... or at least, can tell by how many ticks it takes to get to that calibration spot,
and figure everything out from that.
Also, if for example, some of the notches on the main discs were clogged with dirt, the stick would eventually get messed up calibration in relation to the screen. The calibration disc continually solves any such issue.
Why didnt the game use an Analog stick? Because Pots dont last very long under so much continual motion and stress. They also provide a lot of extra frictional resistance... AND, it would take 2 pots re mames way... which means twice the failure potential...
Also, with an analog stick, the movement is not smooth or fast, and uses too wide an angle for rapid spins. Remember also, a 720 stick has a center pivot point, where as an analog has the pivot at the very bottom. The center pivot makes it easier and faster to spin... which is needed to do the more complicated tricks. (IE: you can spin like 5x as many times before you hit the ground)
While the Analog hack is a decent alternate (I believe it was MY idea originally),
it should not act as a replacement. And its Not anywhere near close to the real deal.
Its obvious, that here is One of MANY places where true Preservation is being disgraced... and why mame has to be taken over by Professionals who actually believe in Real preservation... not just like working on interesting Puzzles.
Substituting Hotdog for Beef in Beef stew is no longer Beef Stew.
Just because you are fine with Hotdog stew, does not make it right or accurate. That is not how the recipe was designed to taste. Regardless of how much Easier it was to make it, and the lack of available beef in certain locations.
Anyone who has tasted real beef stew, and have good taste-buds (sensative palette), will immediatly be displeased. As would it be an Insult to the person who made that recipe, to even call it preserved like that.
As said, theres no good reason why both methods of imputs cant work. Its merely a lack of care and value on the code monkeys part... which is rightly contested by people who Do understand the value of the original creations as they were meant to be experienced.
What if we took the argument to other formats?
Well, I encoded the Movie in Mono, because I only have hearing in one ear, and I
dont care about the rest of you who Do have 2 ears.. nor do I care about representing the Surround sound accurately as was designed. It sounds just fine to me and my one eared pals... and pals who dont give two rats tails about the film.
Ohh, and its way too hard to add a switch. It might take away from my time writing 500 lines of BS on FilmPres.com. If you want to hear more, do it yourself. (even though you helped buy the rare film from a collector)
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Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work. Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users. That is not acceptable.
One of them is a hack, the other is authentic functionality.
One of them is meant so people can play, the other is historical fact.
Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.
But you are wrong, it would not make it unplayable, one *option* does not exclude the other. Have you ever used MAME? Mapping different input devices to control panel layout is already generic and fully functional, i.e. it automatically works for all the games without any changes required, what so ever.
So, you too think emulation/preservation of a PCB is complete/accurate even without reference to authentic controls?
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BTW, there is new thread now to talk about 720 degrees controls, where the main goal I hope would actually be to establish what "accurate preservation" means or should mean, and how to actually read MAME as historical document or technical reference, i.e. you want to repair actual 720 degree PCB, but can't make it work with analog stick.
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In 720, The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.
.....
Ow. Reading drek like that makes my head hurt. Even if there is a point in there, it's too hard to find under all the self entitlement and arrogance. At least with that post I can see why people call you names. You've earned it.
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Unfortunately most people just want to get their favorite game to work. Eg hook up 720 as 2 relative/mouse inputs, which would make it unplayable by 99.99% of Devs/users. That is not acceptable.
One of them is a hack, the other is authentic functionality.
One of them is meant so people can play, the other is historical fact.
Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.
But you are wrong, it would not make it unplayable, one *option* does not exclude the other. Have you ever used MAME? Mapping different input devices to control panel layout is already generic and fully functional, i.e. it automatically works for all the games without any changes required, what so ever.
So, you too think emulation/preservation of a PCB is complete/accurate even without reference to authentic controls?
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BTW, there is new thread now to talk about 720 degrees controls, where the main goal I hope would actually be to establish what "accurate preservation" means or should mean, and how to actually read MAME as historical document or technical reference, i.e. you want to repair actual 720 degree PCB, but can't make it work with analog stick.
Did you really just ask Derrick if he has ever played Mame? :laugh2:
You really dont have much background in this hobby, do you?
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Mmmmm.... Hotdog stew!!!
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If you still think you're being lied to about things then I don't know what to say, you're beyond help?
I think you are misinterpreting some arbitrary unspoken rules and unnecessary turning them into dogma, instead of to listen users feedback and reconsider.
What's being said, by myself, and now Derrek is that simply leaving it in a state where the project developers can't use it / test it / maintain it isn't acceptable.
I'm having hard time believing you two are programmers at all.
I said it's a spinner, you can test it with a MOUSE!
Nobody is saying keep the changes to yourself.
If you've made the changes, create yourself a website, put the source, and a build that runs 720 up, document however you're meant to wire the thing up to a PC in the first place (which certainly has nothing to do with the way it would wire up to a PCB), and be done with it.
So, you are not looking for developers, or is everyone supposed to do the same if they want to contribute? I want to submit changes to mainstream MAME, of course, and I ask you again - do you mind?
Let's face it. If somebody has a 720 controller on their cabinet and needs a MAME build to suit it then they're not going to be playing much else with it anyway, nor are they likely to need to upgrade / change it, ever. It's very much the definition of where you'd need a single specialist build for a single specialist purpose.
Nonsense! It's a spinner, just like trackball is actually only a mouse from the source code perspective. But, don't you worry, it's all already in MAME from long time ago, all is working and everything is fine.
"REDEFINE INPUT" is at least old feature as computer games, and I have no idea how it can even occur to you a program would require special build to support multiple input devices, or why would they conflict with each other. Nothing even matters if multiple devices get mapped to one input in the same time and you play with all of them.
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Xiaou, please make it clear in what version did 720 controller stop working for you and what version do you want to use it with? ...becasue as far as I see it actually works and it never stopped working. Maybe it's hardware problem with your setup, all these years?
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Whichever tickles your fanny, just don't say how playing the games is only a side-effect.
playing the games IS only a side-effect.
being able to test them with normal PC hardware without jumping through hoops is hands-down essential. That means making it easy to use. (and no, a mouse isn't easy the change you hate so much was almost certainly made because a mouse was too hard to use)
Redefine input, yeah, it's been a feature in software for a while (not always, declining today) and MAME still offers a LOT more flexibility than any other piece of software with that functionality, but you still moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan, and moan.
Go try hooking your 720 controller up to the c64 port, I'm sure it has a redefine keys feature for you.
It's a special use case, how you can claim it's anything else is laughable. Now you're claiming maybe it did work on some versions, but people said it didn't even then. Kinda proves there isn't even a proper way to hook the damn thing up to a PC and at that point you're getting even less and less to do with anything emulation related. You may as well start saying MAME should just require all the components of the PCB to be plugged on to a custom built board slotted directly into a PCI slot to be authentic.
Do I mind you making the project harder for developers to use, and have a detrimental effect on normal MAME use? Yes, I will ask for any such changes to be rejected. Period.
Do I mind if you undertake rewriting the entire subsystem, testing it in your own build for a good few months, including extensive public testing, and integrating it at the point where it's determined it will have no detrimental effect to NORMAL use of MAME, and everything you've done is presented in a nice new fully flexible system capable of recognizing and supporting every special case controller under the sun, but which has the current input methods as a default then maintain said system, and deal with bug reports for all the hundreds of wacky controllers you don't have?. No.
Do I expect you to do the latter? No, because you're just somebody else who wants wants wants and moans moans moans, but isn't willing to actually put in the proper effort, but instead would rather just make cheap changes that put everybody other than your special use case at a disadvantage. I also doubt you'll bother with the responsibility of maintaining it even if you did code it just based on how absolutely your attitude stinks. The main version of MAME caters primarily for the developers, and primary userbase, not you. Your attitude is the complete opposite of every good developer I've ever worked with.
You STILL don't get it, despite being told this by every relevant member of the team.
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Go try hooking your 720 controller up to the c64 port
You mean parallel port? Yes, that's my next change - to take quadrature encoding directly from arcade trackballs and spinners to serial or parallel port and then just directly forward it further to ROMs code without any adapters and signal conversion in between.
It's a special use case, how you can claim it's anything else is laughable.
Third time. Just like arcade trackballs and spinners 720 controller is made of nothing else but optical encoders outputing 'quadrature encoding' signal you convert to PC mouse signal via 'mouse hack' or some of the KeyWiz or OptiPac adapters. Ok? -- So again, from the source code point of view it is same for you whether is Missile Command or 720 Degrees, you TEST authentic functionality with PC mouse and then you go PLAY for the high-score record with whatever controller suits you best.
Now you're claiming maybe it did work on some versions, but people said it didn't even then. Kinda proves there isn't even a proper way to hook the damn thing up to a PC and at that point you're getting even less and less to do with anything emulation related.
How about PC mouse interface, just like with all the other spinner games?
You may as well start saying MAME should just require all the components of the PCB to be plugged on to a custom built board slotted directly into a PCI slot to be authentic.
Close, only we do not need "custom" boards when we have serial and parallel ports, we can plug whatever arcade controls directly there and feed their authentic signal directly into virtual PCB port.
Do I mind you making the project harder for developers to use, and have a detrimental effect on normal MAME use? Yes, I will ask for any such changes to be rejected. Period.
You funny human quasi-developer, "changes" you say would be detrimental are long time features of MAME, such as ability of assigning input to many different, even if very incompatible, types of input devices, such as possibility of controlling 'Star Wars' with mouse, keys or with actual SW flight stick. -- First you proudly celebrated this as great flexibility, and now you "reject" it, even though it's all already there, huh?!
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I'm having hard time believing you two are programmers at all.
WOW! This is why it is pointless to even hold a discussion with you. Please return the MAME software for a full refund.
You seem to skip the facts to keep things fitting in your view of the world. You have been told our reasons. You have been told this is the way we like it. You have been told you are free to code something. You have been given guidelines how. You have been told no MAMEdev has any interest in coding it for you, mainly due to demanding attitudes. Why MUST we code it for you in our free time?
Lets start a rant that you can not directly hook up a Seawolf periscope.
Have fun ranting. I'm done with pointless discussions. I will chime back in when someone who can do quality core code wants to work on it.
:banghead:
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You have been told our reasons.
And I explained your reasons are self-refuting since all that is already in MAME. Try it, it's free.
You have been told no MAMEdev has any interest in coding it for you, mainly due to demanding attitudes. Why MUST we code it for you in our free time?
I do all the coding myself, and I want to contribute it to mainstream MAME. Do you mind?
Have fun ranting. I'm done with pointless discussions. I will chime back in when someone who can do quality core code wants to work on it.
Tuck your tail and run.
Though, you can now come back, as I am the one who can do quality core code. What can I do for you?
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I think the original blog post by Haze kind of points out that coders/programmers with the following attitude...
I do all the coding myself, and I want to contribute it to mainstream MAME. Do you mind?
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Though, you can now come back, as I am the one who can do quality core code. What can I do for you?
...is the kind that's detracting from the general advancements by the MAME team, if I'm not mistaken. So wouldn't you be the exact opposite of what they'd want on the team? If you're an able coder, then just join up, do your part, and leave. If you don't like it, don't bother.
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So when are we going to see the Seawolf periscope? :timebomb: ;)
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Though, you can now come back, as I am the one who can do quality core code. What can I do for you?
Make a system that is handled by the Core UI; Input; Input Port code that can select between real and fake controls. Then change the Input port code in the drivers to use it. The UI would allow you to select the real control or a fake control that would call a driver function to modify the data.
It would be easier to start with the Shifter port code changes I mentioned in an earlier post. This would give you an idea of how the MAME interfaces that would need changing work.
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abaraba,
If you really can do core changes...
Its either a quick fix "switch" which enables / disables real controls
IE: arcadecontrols = on/off
Or the better solution would be to Enforce the "Controller Mapping".
On Mame32, theres a controller mapping section which can assign whatever device you have to what kind of controller you want it used on. (does not seem to be enforced)
For example, you can choose to assign your Joystick to "Paddle", so that any game in mame that uses "Paddle", will use your joystick.
However, the Mapping isnt enforced. And so you still will see odd mappings on games, as well as be able to re-map other controller in those games. Basically, mapping seems to be ignored?
If you fire up a game of Kick, it should only show Dial if you have selected the mouse as your mapping. It should not show Auto-Center, or any other feature unrelated to spinner input. If you select Analog-Joystick for the mapping, it could then Hack the controls, and display all relavent analog controls and adjustments needed for them in the games menu system.
This of course may be a much larger undertaking, but that would clear up so many issues with confusion of what the game originally controlled with... and ease of changing that, if needed. Hitting Tab to see the controls in certain games is a virtual nightmare of options, that shouldnt even exist.
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Its either a quick fix "switch" which enables / disables real controls
IE: arcadecontrols = on/off
Switch in official release. NO. Please read the multiple times in this thread that that has already been stated.
Switch in other release. Go for it.
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In 720, The 2nd encoder disc is used to re-calibrate the onscreen character.
.....
Ow. Reading drek like that makes my head hurt. Even if there is a point in there, it's too hard to find under all the self entitlement and arrogance. At least with that post I can see why people call you names. You've earned it.
Sammy,
This has Nothing to do with me feeling Entitled, nor Arrogance.
It has to do with my passion and belief in Preserving things as they Should be preserved. You cant preserve the mona lisa with Finger Paints, and if someone did that, there would be Tons of angered people who felt it unjust.
Just because these painters do the work that nobody else is doing, does not mean they are right and correct about it. And generations in the future, when things are outright missing, confusing, and unknown... they would take a good deal of the blame for it.
IMOP, there is a certain level of Responsibility that should be upheld here. This isnt like making a GoCart for yourself. This is the recreation of historical machines. And as such, accuracy is very important. These creations dont belong to ANY of the Devs. Just as the Mono Lisa does not belong to the Finger Painter Restoration crew.
Go to any Museum and see the mass efforts to restore things to their ORIGINAL ways. You will find people with highly skilled people who LIKE and Desire to make things Correct... and they have highly qualified skills to do so.
IMOP, preserving these games should either be a museum or Govt. / Continental sponsored thing. Where much more money, time, and energy can be funneled into it. Where stupid rules about Partial Simulations are not going to destroy rediscovery & enjoyment from "Baby Pacman"... or an Old Electromechanical game.
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As for the quote about 720, Im sorry that you did not understand it. I can re-write it in a way that you could... but it was aimed at the people who Do understand it. Meaning, it wasnt actually complex, just that you have to be familiarized with arcade parts to understand it.
A) Encoder wheel = a disc with holes or notches which is read with an Optical Sensor (Infarred Light beam). Most commonly used with spinners & trackballs to detect movement. In the most basic sense, the notches represent on/off... but, it is able to tell which direction the thing is traveling... so its a little more complicated than just 0 or 1.
B) 720 uses 2 encoders. One for pointing the Skater in a certain direction. (I believe it has 72 notches) The other encoder has only 1 or 2 notches. Its used for telling the game that the Stick that the player uses is directly facing North... and that if the Skater is NOT facing North on screen at that time... the computer will re-adjust, and make him face north to match the Controllers stick angle.
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Just out of curiosity, who ACTUALLY HONESTLY plans on hooking up a real 720 control?
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Honesty has no place in hypothetical discussions
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I love X's analogies. They're worth preserving by themselves. They make little sense, to any sane and cogent person, but they're priceless nonetheless.
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Just out of curiosity, who ACTUALLY HONESTLY plans on hooking up a real 720 control?
If I can find one I will, but it is just to test the controller code. I don't think I would actually play the game very often. I have a modular control panel on my MAME cab, so it would just be another panel to hook up. I am more interested in finding out what other controls don't work correctly, but since my cabinet is built for it, it kinda makes sense that I should have all of the unique controllers to test. There is a repro 720 controller being built, so that may increase the number of people wanting to use one in the future. From what I have seen over the years, there are actually very few people who actually build a modular or swappable panel, which is really the only market for this.
I think it would be great to have the option to use real controls, so I am really interested in the project. I don't have a problem with it being a diff. If it is maintained and updated for long enough, it may or may not get added to the core someday, but it doesn't matter in the end, as long as it is available. Minwah had a driver version of MAME for a while to address the various problems with using actual controls for racing games. I think it was mostly sensitivity settings. this would have been just as good as a diff, I think, and it might have stayed more up to date. There is a real problem of varying opinion unless every game is optimized to use the exact controller from each game. different encoder wheels and gears even make common dial controls fairly unique if we are shooting for accuracy. Even with just the trackpad on my laptop, there is a huge difference in the current 720 behavior, and in the version that I reverted back to the pre analog version. It is just sensitivity settings, but the it is a huge difference. I am still not sure how it will behave with a real controller though. without the sensitivity set (to 30, I think), it is just too easy to fall over because it is attempting to spin too fast.
I haven't heard anyone else say they actually want to help code the project, so I am not sure if this will really take off. I will keep trying to learn the way things are done, but with work, and school starting up again next week, it will probably be a slow process. Now that I have actually started looking around in the code, I am very interested.
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I love X's analogies. They're worth preserving by themselves. They make little sense, to any sane and cogent person, but they're priceless nonetheless.
I love that he still writes "IMOP".
::)
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IMOP, preserving these games should either be a museum or Govt. / Continental sponsored thing. Where much more money, time, and energy can be funneled into it. Where stupid rules about Partial Simulations are not going to destroy rediscovery & enjoyment from "Baby Pacman"... or an Old Electromechanical game.
You know that you live in a city where there is a museum that is doing that, right ? ;)
Did you really just suggest that MAME support EM games ? :dizzy:
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Did you really just suggest that MAME support EM games ? :dizzy:
Should be simple enough to add this support to MAME by coding in a few switches (and relays).
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This has Nothing to do with me feeling Entitled, nor Arrogance.
It has to do with my passion and belief in Preserving things as they Should be preserved. You cant preserve the mona lisa with Finger Paints, and if someone did that, there would be Tons of angered people who felt it unjust.
Just because these painters do the work that nobody else is doing, does not mean they are right and correct about it. And generations in the future, when things are outright missing, confusing, and unknown... they would take a good deal of the blame for it.
Very possibly the worst analogy ever. There is one Mona Lisa. Doing what you describe would permanently destroy it. The MAME Team does no such thing. They are preserving the parts they feel the most strongly about. This in no possible way detracts from your ability to preserve the parts you feel most strongly about, even using their project as a starting point.
If you are going to try to defend your attitude toward those who have given more than you could ever imagine, you might want to try a more reasonable analogy.
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Just out of curiosity, who ACTUALLY HONESTLY plans on hooking up a real 720 control?
People that Like that game. I know at least 2 people locally who I bet would (huge fans of the game) ...and I would too, so that makes a possible 3, in a single city.. let alone the others who may in the future.
(one of my buddies sold his 720, due to needing more money for his pinball machines... which are climbing in value, getting harder and harder to afford)
720, like many other Atari games, is a classically known game. It was in the arcades most everywhere. There are bound to be a Lot of fans out there for it... as well as people who are new to the game, but want to try and experience it as it Should be played.
720 is of course much less popular than something like Pole Position, or Spy Hunter, and neither of those games have shifter support. Plenty of cabinet builders / game fans have been discouraged because of this very fact. While PP is still playable to a certain degree due to its lazy pace... Spy Hunter is nearly impossible to play without a real shifter because of its extreme AI and intensity. You also lose the feel of the game without the real controller.
An Argument was also made about Sinistar some time back. Who will use a real 49 Way controller? Guess what? Many people have / Do. However, to make mame accept it, the hardware guys had to create a special encoder to change the signals to adapt to mames hackery to do so.
And what about 12 or 24 position rotary controllers? Cant hook them up either...
unless you use another hardware based hack... which doesnt even work very well.
And Finally, its not the Amount of people that use a real / special controller. Its the fact that its the right thing to do. The game is supposed to be experienced a certain way.. and that should always be supported and documented correctly. If 720 playing with a real controller isnt for you... thats fine... then it doesnt matter to you... so why play it? But it Does matter for those who Do like/love it... and those people should weight much more than those who care less. Thats even besides the basic and more important preservation argument.
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The random capital lettres drive me nuts, I cant even read any more of this tripe. :timebomb:
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.
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But we get all this grief because X2 couldn't keep his yap shut on the Mame World board, and now we are experiencing act 2 on this board....
More correctly because X2 derailed the MAMEworld threads and this thread. None of them started out as 720 threads. ;D
As for adding better real control support for shifters, direct snk rotary support, etc.... X2 has been told over, and over, and over, again that no current Dev has interest in doing so. We are not his to command. BUT (some random caps ;) ) if someone codes up some quality code, send it in for discussion.
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The random capital lettres drive me nuts, I cant even read any more of this tripe. :timebomb:
I don't See the Problem Here, capital Letters Are my Friend. :lol
I skipped over any comment from X2 a long time ago....how someone can ---smurfette--- about 720 controls for weeks straight is something I can't comprehend. I got the point the first time, X2....dedicated controller support. Yep, that would be nice. You didn't have to write a book about it. :banghead:
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You know that you live in a city where there is a museum that is doing that, right ?
Of course. I was very privileged to meet Jeff Anderson right before the sales to the Museum... and Ive both visited the Museum frequently, as well as was privy to both the basement as well as the upstairs collections that are not on public display.
(Thanks C.H.E.G.)
The problems with Strong, is that the space allocated to it is too limited... and thus the titles available are limited. Even when they dedicated a much larger space to it... some of their title choices were a bit weak. IE: There was a sitdown G-lock.. but no SD Outrun... which would have gained more return visits.
Also, its probably impossible that every game is going to get such a treatment, or be accessible to the public without having to travel half way around the world to experience all these titles... Let alone going there to play a game, and finding out that its Out of Service.
Did you really just suggest that MAME support EM games ?
Multiple Arcade Machines. Pins and Mechanical games were the earliest historical Arcade Machines.
Yes, I realize the depth and insanity of such a move. But, how great would it be,
for a high-standard approach to preserving these incredible titles...
Very possibly the worst analogy ever. There is one Mona Lisa. Doing what you describe would permanently destroy it. The MAME Team does no such thing. They are preserving the parts they feel the most strongly about.
The Analogy is pretty much like the Hotdog Stew. The gameplay " IS " Destroyed when you do not use the intended controller. And as for destruction of history, that is left for time. In time, when someone fires up mame to see how 720, Sinistar..etc.. worked... they will not only be given the wrong control information... but they will experience the game in a way that was never intended.
The analogy is more symbolic to the individuals experience 'now'. We all cant experience sitting in and driving a vintage Classic Car. However, if its possible to recreate that experience... then great. But to alter that experience by stripping out a manual shifter to an automatic... is not true preservation or correct representation. Responsibly speaking, its a very bad thing to do, to alter History based on Personal opinion.
Personal Opinion often does not equate to "Preservation".
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Just discovered 720 on a multicade machine at a local truck stop (Rogers, MN, it was set to freeplay!) Back in the day, I could put in my 50 cents and play for 20 minutes. Unfortunately it was a standard joystick (in Rogers) so I couldn't get all the fancy moves, especially on the ramp screen. But I have the blister on my left middle finger to prove that I played!
(PS: Why didn't you upgrade any more of your equipment? You can get three upgrades on a new level.)
BumwhiffleZoopstanky 10 months ago
without that rotary joystick it's hard to pull off those spin jumps..thats why any emulation or remake of this game is no match to the origanal arcade in the 80's...well done..you are a good player.
nintendoneil 11 months ago
have this on an emulator disc. It's impossible to play with a standard controller
Djclyve 3 years ago
Dont bother unplayable on it...
Schush 3 years ago
how the f*** do u configure it in mame?
rainxxxx 3 years ago
720 Degrees Arcade Game Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cin-w3ZKt2U#)
Atari_720_rotary_controller_rebuild (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7iikKiBKRU#)
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I have no interest in authentic controls, so I'm going to pull an X2 and pretend I have authority to say, "MAME Devs, you're off the hook."
(...and thank you for not throwing your hands up in disgust and saying, "You know what? NOBODY is coding MAME any further. Suck it, X2."
Well, thanks for not saying the first part, anyway.
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The random capital lettres drive me nuts, I cant even read any more of this tripe. :timebomb:
I don't See the Problem Here, capital Letters Are my Friend. :lol
I skipped over any comment from X2 a long time ago....how someone can ---smurfette--- about 720 controls for weeks straight is something I can't comprehend. I got the point the first time, X2....dedicated controller support. Yep, that would be nice. You didn't have to write a book about it. :banghead:
Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- that was funny! :lol
Totally agree. Yawnfest 2011
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Make a system that is handled by the Core UI; Input; Input Port code that can select between real and fake controls.
Seriously, start MAME and have a look, it's all already there.
There is no need for "real" and "fake", one is simply mapping of input to analog stick and the other is mapping to mouse, just like with all the other games. Piece of code handling input via analog port has nothing to do with keyboard and mouse handling code.
Then change the Input port code in the drivers to use it. The UI would allow you to select the real control or a fake control that would call a driver function to modify the data.
It's all already there, except it's called "mouse" and "analog", not "real" and "fake".
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Being able to play crummy old arcade games on a computer is more than I could ever imagine?
:laugh2:
Wow.
Ever hear of the concept of "context"? The MAMEDevs have given more to the resurrection and preservation of the these old games than X, and apparently yourself, could ever imagine. If you haven't done it yourself, you have no frame of reference for the sweat and tears (hopefully no blood) that it took to get this project where it is.
Also, if you think the old games are "crummy", you are obviously trolling the wrong forums. Some people think knocking a steel ball around on a gaily decorated board full of switches and lights is a pointless endeavor as well (not me, I wouldn't trade my fully restored "High Speed" for anything.) So the whole "glass houses" thing should probably be considered when you make statements like that one.
The Analogy is pretty much like the Hotdog Stew.
I'm taking you to mean that it is ridiculous and no-one should make it?
The gameplay " IS " Destroyed when you do not use the intended controller. And as for destruction of history, that is left for time. In time, when someone fires up mame to see how 720, Sinistar..etc.. worked... they will not only be given the wrong control information... but they will experience the game in a way that was never intended.
The analogy is more symbolic to the individuals experience 'now'. We all cant experience sitting in and driving a vintage Classic Car. However, if its possible to recreate that experience... then great. But to alter that experience by stripping out a manual shifter to an automatic... is not true preservation or correct representation. Responsibly speaking, its a very bad thing to do, to alter History based on Personal opinion.
No, Steve, nothing is destroyed. It's all still there, just the way you remember it. Nobody has incinerated those machines, or their controls (well, they might have, but it wasn't the people you keep screaming at.) No king of any land has formally decreed that the only 720 that shall ever be played or remembered shall be the one in MAME. The controls for 720 are documented in many places on the web, and on the still existing original machines as well. The way the control interacts with the original code is also still present. There is simply no way for Joe 12-pack (times are rough) to get to them. He needs to step away from the instant gratification box and learn to do a little coding. That is not the same as destroying anything, unless you are counting your own personal "treasured memories" when you boot MAME with your original 720 controller in your hand, expecting it to simply work because you are you.
There is no PC analog for this control, in its original form. It's not a mouse, but a superset of a mouse. It's a mouse+, with the + being something that cannot be achieved with common PC analogs. So the current control scheme, via the translation layer, is assigned to the common PC controls that will actually allow one to test/play the game, without the magic original control. You are clamoring for an option to essentially hack in support for something that you, and very few others, own, or likely ever will, at the expense of convoluting the code and making it less manageable. I personally think they should map the index pulse to a digital input and call it a day, and have suggested it in the past. But they consider that a "hack", so I accept their view. It is their project, after all, not yours. Your realistic options are to maintain your own build, which they graciously allow you to do, or buy an original machine. You shouldn't be surprised when anything other than that is called out for what it is. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if your relentless hammering on them has kept something like what I suggested from being added, just to keep you miserable.
Personal Opinion often does not equate to "Preservation".
It also does not often equate to "fact". One can argue that the cabinet dimensions, wiring schematics, artwork and myriad other properties of the cabinet are equally as important. But I don't see you expecting the MAME Team to "preserve" those aspects, as well you shouldn't because those are also not included in the project goals.
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Xiaou, do you want to solve the problem, or what?
I said IT WORKS!! Hello?!?!!!!
I confirmed both encoder inputs work in mame 131, will _you now try it or what?
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Xiaou, do you want to solve the problem, or what?
I said IT WORKS!! Hello?!?!!!!
I confirmed both encoder inputs work in mame 131, will _you now try it or what?
You, sir, may be a bigger idiot than certain others around here. You do understand why no one is bothering to pay attention to you, right? Seriously, have to know that don't you? Please tell me you understand.
Never mind, I honestly believe you don't know. That, in itself, may be the biggest source of pure idiocy on the entire interwebs. :hissy
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There is no PC analog for this control, in its original form. It's not a mouse, but a superset of a mouse. It's a mouse+, with the + being something that cannot be achieved with common PC analogs.
It's translates to plain PC mouse just as arcade trackball, only difference is that one of the wheels has only two holes, but code only needs to forward the same type of data to virtual PCB pins as if it was trackball game, then the emulated game code itself does everything else.
So the current control scheme, via the translation layer, is assigned to the common PC controls that will actually allow one to test/play the game, without the magic original control. You are clamoring for an option to essentially hack in support for something...
It's all already there, it all works just fine.
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It's translates to plain PC mouse just as arcade trackball, only difference is that one of the wheels has only two holes, but code only needs to forward the same type of data to virtual PCB pins as if it was trackball game, then the emulated game code itself does everything else.
But the point is that you could not possibly use a trackball or mouse (common PC analogs) to properly control the game with this active. On-screen action would be absolutely haywire. But I do see a point in suggesting that the index wheel be mapped to the Y-Axis and allowing the user to unmap that axis if they can't use it. But again, if the devs don't want it implemented in that form, there's little one can do but to accept it or modify it as a custom build. Or, do it in such a way that they find the change acceptable for inclusion.
It's all already there, it all works just fine.
That would be seriously funny if true. But I'm guessing it's not, based on the feedback about the issue in this thread.
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That would be seriously funny if true. But I'm guessing it's not, based on the feedback about the issue in this thread.
[DELETED]
I was wrong about these, this is the truth:
- it does not work properly with MAME, I was fooled by analog hack
- it never worked properly with both encoders in any version of MAME
Sorry for confusion, mouse hack + laptop trackpad indeed can produce illusion that it works. I now got ball-mouse to test axes separately and precisely, and also PS2 analog pad to test 'analog hack' too.
Anyway, I got it working, more about it in the other thread about 720.
Can support for authentic controller and analog hack exist together? Of course they can!
But the point is that you could not possibly use a trackball or mouse (common PC analogs) to properly control the game with this active. On-screen action would be absolutely haywire.
I see you are suggesting input devices would "interfere" with each other, but I do not see why, especially if you do not have analog joysticks plugged in at all?
What mouse handling routine has to do with analog stick or keyboard handling routine? No keyboard hack interferes with any of the original inputs in any other game. Mouse hack to control Star Wars has nothing to with proper data forwarding taking place when input is handled via analog input handling code.
But I do see a point in suggesting that the index wheel be mapped to the Y-Axis and allowing the user to unmap that axis if they can't use it. But again, if the devs don't want it implemented in that form, there's little one can do but to accept it or modify it as a custom build.
They kind of went from "we don't care to work on it", to "we do not want changes" accompanied with no good reason, but assumption that my changes would do "something bad" to the rest of the code.
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at the expense of convoluting the code and making it less manageable.
Everyone knows this is an Excuse. And not a good one at that. I find it hard to believe a man of your intelligence would buy into it. Or maybe your just stroking egos here. Trust me, it does not work with these guys. It only makes them feel more "Right" in their messed up beliefs...
Like how Haze thinks that Ports of the originals are better... yet when doing 10 seconds of research on something like Marble Madness Ports without a Trackball... will yield tons of comments saying that the port SUCKS compared to the real deal. And how in less than 60 seconds, I was able to find several pages and quotes about how ports and mames 720 driver, are not even close to being playable compared to the real machine.
The reason why Haze thinks ports are better, is because hes Ignorant... and is a person who does not enjoy nor can handle a physical / game challenge. This means that hacks which make a game easier, such as faster speed on the Ball in Marble Madness, or getting 2 rotations for one spin on a port of 720... are considered Better to him. Yet everyone else who wants / likes / expects a challenge when playing... has to suffer, because of his ignorance in butchering the original coders long and hard work of making challenging gameplay.
I personally think they should map the index pulse to a digital input and call it a day, and have suggested it in the past. But they consider that a "hack"
So, its OK to completely wipe out the original controller with a Hack, but not ok to add a tiny hack to allow calibration? Thats beyond intelligence. That has to do with Personal Ego minded reasons. Much like everything discussed... its not a matter of challenge or accuracy. Its a matter of Personal Opinions... which is very sad indeed... and does not represent a positive position on Preservation, or the Team at all.
You shouldn't be surprised when anything other than that is called out for what it is. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if your relentless hammering on them has kept something like what I suggested from being added, just to keep you miserable.
Firstly, we know thats untrue, because you suggested it before my hammering and was denied.
But, actually, thats exactly the point. The Devs are preserving and hacking based on Personal opinions. Many of them have Never once played a real machine, and do not fully value these creations... hence such decisions. Giles stood there at CAX preaching to a room full of classic fans that DO appreciate the games in their entirety... about what? About how to run a project the way you want to run a project! Basically slapping all those peoples faces for caring about how a game like 720 should be controlled, or how Spy Hunter should have a shifter... or how TX-1 should have 4 channel sound...etc. Completely Clueless? Or just being a D***?
Or both?
Is it because he does not have a 2nd sound card? Needs some more speakers? We can get them. No? Ahh, I know... Its cause he does not give a ratts butt.
Which is why Mame needs someone who Does care about these games in Full, not in PARTS via "Opinion"... and or needs someone who will accept money to get these Important things Into official builds.
Everyone knows that Stand-Alone branches are Impossible to maintain to the ever changing current code base. Which is pretty much another reason why Devs suggest it... cause they know its futile. Once the changes are in... it wont take much to maintain them officially... just like every other control / interface that already works and is maintained just fine to date. (including the gross hacks mame has decided to institute already)
Its painfully Obvious that the new gen programmers just dont get it.
If only we could find some Old Skoolers to show them up...
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Its painfully Obvious that the new gen programmers just dont get it.
If only we could find some Old Skoolers to show them up...
According to you we are too anti-social to be worth anything.
Funny, cause Ive met more Punk Elitist Programmers/Techies with Poor attitudes, Anger/Temper Issues, Arrogant, Self Absorbed, etc.. than the typical EndUser/Collector/Gameplayer. Ahh, but generalizations are great arnt they?
Generally speaking, Programmers/Techs have poor social skills. (which is why they enjoy talking to a computer for Hours instead of real people) They dont get along too well with others, and many times have no patience for people they feel are beneath them. (people who cant do what they do - but "SHOULD" be able to /sarcasm :P . . . )
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First, I want to say a huge thanks to the MAME team for what they have accomplished - extremely well done, very professional, and very much appreciated (especially the 'no hacks' attitude).
I'm working on my first cab now, and very much looking forward to reliving a part of my youth with it, and if it weren't for MAME, it wouldn't be happening.
I can't believe the amount of hate MAME gets from, or the attitude of, some of its users.
For those few for whom MAME is fundamentally flawed unless they can connect their authentic 720 joystick, is there anything you need that isn't on this page (2nd result from googling 'mame 720'):
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php (http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php)
Not only does the guy give very detailed information on how he did it, he even provides a pre-built modified version of MAME with the support compiled in.
If the complaint is that this isn't in core MAME, then:
1. It's already been explained multiple times why this is the case, and
2. Why does it matter whether it is in core MAME or not?
Yes, yes, 'Arcade Authenticity', 'As It Was Meant To Be Played', etc, etc, etc, etc.
But even if it was in MAME as standard, you'd still obviously need to supply and interface the controller yourself.
Since you need to go to the effort of interfacing it, why is it a big deal if applying a small MAME patch is part of the process?
That way, anyone out there who actually has one of those controllers can use it, but the overwhelming majority that don't are unaffected.
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First, I want to say a huge thanks to the MAME team for what they have accomplished - extremely well done, very professional, and very much appreciated (especially the 'no hacks' attitude).
...
I would normally agree with you, it's only this one particular case, as far as I want to care right now, where the sides are flipped around. It is exactly this "no hack" attitude we are arguing about, so I hope you will appreciate to know exactly how things are, let me show you what "hack" is:
From current MAME 141, this is only one relevant function in the whole story - atarisy2.c:
static READ8_HANDLER( leta_r )
{
static const char *const letanames[] = { "LETA0", "LETA1", "LETA2", "LETA3" };
atarisy2_state *state = space->machine->driver_data<atarisy2_state>();
if (state->pedal_count == -1) /* 720 */
{
/* special thanks to MAME Analog+ for the mapping code */
switch (offset & 3)
{
case 0:
case 1:
{
static double last_angle;
static int rotations;
int analogx = input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA0") - 128;
int analogy = input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA1") - 128;
double angle;
/* if the joystick is centered, leave the rest of this alone */
angle = last_angle;
if (analogx < -32 || analogx > 32 || analogy < -32 || analogy > 32)
angle = atan2((double)analogx, (double)analogy) * 360 / (2 * M_PI);
/* detect when we pass the 0 point in either direction */
if (last_angle < -90 && angle > 90)
rotations--;
else if (last_angle > 90 && angle < -90)
rotations++;
last_angle = angle;
/* offset 0 returns 0xff when the controller blocks one of two gaps */
if ((offset & 3) == 0)
{
/* original controller had two gaps 10 degrees apart, each 2.5 degrees wide */
/* we fake it a little to make it possible to hit the zeroed state with a digital controller */
return (angle >= -5.0 && angle <= 5.0) ? 0xff : 0x00;
}
/* offset 1 returns dial value; 144 units = 1 full rotation */
else
{
/* take the rotations * 144 plus the current angle */
return (rotations * 144 + (int)(angle * 144.0 / 360.0)) & 0xff;
}
break;
}
case 2: return 0xff;
case 3: return 0xff;
}
}
return input_port_read(space->machine, letanames[offset & 3]);
}
Note the size and comments above. That's how "hack" looks like.
Now, this below is that same function but without any hacks, and enabled for both encoder inputs so it can handle authentic controller properly. I simply just forward input further to emulated game without any fiddling with the data:
static READ8_HANDLER( leta_r ){
static const char *const letanames[] = { "LETA0", "LETA1", "LETA2", "LETA3" };
atarisy2_state *state = space->machine->driver_data<atarisy2_state>();
if(state->pedal_count == -1) /* 720 */
{
switch (offset & 3)
{
case 0: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA1") & 0xff;
case 1: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA0") & 0xff;
case 2: return 0xff;
case 3: return 0xff;
}
}
return input_port_read(space->machine, letanames[offset & 3]);
}
To make both of these functions exist together without interfering all we need is to find some variable to tell us which device is actually mapped, or enabled at the moment, and execute appropriate code accordingly. That's all there is to it, and it's all ready to go in mainstream MAME.
-
For those few for whom MAME is fundamentally flawed unless they can connect their authentic 720 joystick, is there anything you need that isn't on this page (2nd result from googling 'mame 720'):
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php (http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php)
Not only does the guy give very detailed information on how he did it, he even provides a pre-built modified version of MAME with the support compiled in.
Wow! I should have taken a better look at that page when it was mentioned earlier in this thread. That guy has the perfect attitude.
Read the first paragraph on the home page.
5 years ago Aaron Giles created a MAME driver that enabled us all to play the actual arcade version of 720 degrees (one of my favorite arcade games) on the home computer. The only problem was that the game used a unique joystick controller which meant that playing the game with a mouse or a joystick didn't work very well. I was very disappointed then, and waited for it to be fixed... And waited... And waited... Eventually, I realized that there was no reason for me not to make it work right myself, so I created this page and got to work.
Then read the last sentence in the first paragraph again.
Eventually, I realized that there was no reason for me not to make it work right myself, so I created this page and got to work.
That is how it should be. :applaud:
I love Tail Gunner. I was disappointed that it did not have sound. I found a site that explained how to add sound thanks to ASTGL (I can't locate his page anymore). That gave me sound, but not the authentic sounds. Then I found Peter Hirschberg's site (http://www.peterhirschberg.com/) and he was gracious enough to send me recordings from his original Tail Gunner 2 cabinet. Now I could play Tail Gunner with the sound that I remember. I submitted it to the MAME dev team and it became an official part of MAME. If the MAMEDev team had rejected my change, I would have just posted what I did on my own site in case someone else wanted to use it.
Again, that is how it should be.
-
abaraba, don't you think you should give Paul Olson just a tiny sliver of credit for modifying that driver to begin with?
Also, be careful about jumping the gun again and making claims before it has been properly tested.
sigh, I really was trying to avoid posting on this thread....
-
Now, this below is that same function but without any hacks, and enabled for both encoder inputs so it can handle authentic controller properly. I simply just forward input further to emulated game without any fiddling with the data:
static READ8_HANDLER( leta_r ){
static const char *const letanames[] = { "LETA0", "LETA1", "LETA2", "LETA3" };
atarisy2_state *state = space->machine->driver_data<atarisy2_state>();
if(state->pedal_count == -1) /* 720 */
{
switch (offset & 3)
{
case 0: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA1") & 0xff;
case 1: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA0") & 0xff;
case 2: return 0xff;
case 3: return 0xff;
}
}
return input_port_read(space->machine, letanames[offset & 3]);
}
To make both of these functions exist together without interfering all we need is to find some variable to tell us which device is actually mapped, or enabled at the moment, and execute appropriate code accordingly. That's all there is to it, and it's all ready to go in mainstream MAME.
Really, wow. You are as correct now as you were when you said that using a real 720 control currently works in MAME. Do you think maybe, possibly, you might want to change the Input ports too? But what do I know.
Nice of you all to keep disregarding facts and just spout forth your current beliefs of the second. All the while saying people who actually work on the code know nothing. Fascinating really.
:laugh2:
Not to mention, you have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere, so removing the current code does not make an acceptable solution. Keep trying.
BTW, by changing/adding about 10 lines of code you could have both versions fake/real that exist in parallel and automatically uses whichever control you are using. Well maybe not. Remember I've been told I know nothing and am not a programmer. See if all you with the real knowledge can figure out how.
:dizzy:
Note: when I say you all, I just mean the 2 or 3 vocal annoying ones. Not everyone on this forum. Some are quite helpfull.
-
Really, wow. You are as correct now as you were when you said that using a real 720 control currently works in MAME. Do you think maybe, possibly, you might want to change the Input ports too? But what do I know.
No, Input ports do not need to be set, apart from small adjustments, and is irrelevant for the point I made.
You know very little, but please keep talking as I'm now wondering if you know anything at all.
Not to mention, you have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere, so removing the current code does not make an acceptable solution. Keep trying.
Analog hack is buggy, it does not work properly, orientation jumps all over the place and flickers, it's unplayable, embarrassing really, however it works fine for laptops where you "draw circles" over mouse touchpad.
BTW, by changing/adding about 10 lines of code you could have both versions fake/real that exist in parallel and automatically uses whichever control you are using. Well maybe not. Remember I've been told I know nothing and am not a programmer. See if all you with the real knowledge can figure out how.
:dizzy:
Are you drunk? That is my argument, that's what I have been telling you, and told you again in that last paragraph you quoted, and explained exactly what and how. Whoever wrote that hack obviously did not realize what two of us now agree about. -- Are you the one who can decline my submission? Do you really have any say in that?
-
Really, wow. You are as correct now as you were when you said that using a real 720 control currently works in MAME. Do you think maybe, possibly, you might want to change the Input ports too? But what do I know.
No, Input ports do not need to be set, apart from small adjustments, and is irrelevant for the point I made.
You know very little, but please keep talking as I'm now wondering if you know anything at all.
Really? In my world (which is bound by facts), I would want to change to current Ports from being absolute controls to relative. Even the site you mentioned says so.
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php (http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php)
But I'm probably wrong because I know nothing, even though I worked on MAME's input system.
Not to mention, you have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere, so removing the current code does not make an acceptable solution. Keep trying.
Analog hack is buggy, it does not work properly, orientation jumps all over the place and flickers, it's unplayable, embarrassing really, however it works fine for laptops where you "draw circles" over mouse touchpad.
Let's all chant this line again. "You have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere."
BTW, by changing/adding about 10 lines of code you could have both versions fake/real that exist in parallel and automatically uses whichever control you are using. Well maybe not. Remember I've been told I know nothing and am not a programmer. See if all you with the real knowledge can figure out how.
:dizzy:
Are you drunk? That is my argument, that's what I have been telling you, and told you again in that last paragraph you quoted, and explained exactly what and how. Whoever wrote that hack obviously did not realize what two of us now agree about. -- Are you the one who can decline my submission? Do you really have any say in that?
I most certainly would decline any submission by you that is based on the wrong info you provide.
But if you read my last quote again about the 10 lines of code, take it as a challenge to code something properly. This would then get us back on topic of getting new programmers into coding MAME.
-
I get that you're passionate about the subject, and I dig a good technical discussion. It'd be great if the scene was further advanced as a result.
....
[DELETED]
my testing was lazy and I got fooled by analog hack, I was wrong - it does not work in MAME 131.
It works as BadMouth and Xiaou have described, and that would not work with authentic controller.
===============
I also dig that you manned up when you were wrong and said so, lots of folks wouldn't. You get props for that.
However...
You know very little, but please keep talking as I'm now wondering if you know anything at all.
Tone it the hell down or get the hell off my forums.
--- saint
-
But if you read my last quote again about the 10 lines of code, take it as a challenge to code something properly. This would then get us back on topic of getting new programmers into coding MAME.
It takes 2 lines of code.
I can not make sense of anything else you're saying.
The important thing is we agree both options can co-exist.
-
Tone it the hell down or get the hell off my forums.
--- saint
I acknowledge. I am not aiming for insults, just arrogance, so to stay in the character.
-
I acknowledge. I am not aiming for insults, just arrogance, so to stay in the character.
:dizzy:
(http://nerdiest-kids.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/banhammer1.jpg)
-
But if you read my last quote again about the 10 lines of code, take it as a challenge to code something properly. This would then get us back on topic of getting new programmers into coding MAME.
It takes 2 lines of code.
Let's see them.
I can not make sense of anything else you're saying.
I can't do the reading for you. I told you to check the page you mentioned.
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php (http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php)
The current code defines the inputs as absolute. (IPT_AD_STICK_X) You need to use relative inputs.
You need to read the web page where it says: "Then in the section, "INPUT_PORTS_START( 720 )" replace: Change LETA0 and LETA1 to:"
-
I posted the steps needed to create the code for real/fake controls to coexist over in the 720 thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.msg1152192#msg1152192 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.msg1152192#msg1152192)
Who wants to take the challenge?
-
Tone it the hell down or get the hell off my forums.
--- saint
just arrogance, so to stay in the character.
Do not want.
-
I posted the steps needed to create the code for real/fake controls to coexist over in the 720 thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.msg1152192#msg1152192 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.msg1152192#msg1152192)
Who wants to take the challenge?
I am actually interested in it for the technical challenge even though I couldn't care less about 720. I already know how I am going to modify my spinner to incorporate the second encoder wheel.
It may be a week or so before I can begin to work on it seriously though.
-
WHY THE HELL DOESN'T MAME SUPPORT PNEUMATIC BUTTONS IN STREET FIGHTER!>!?>!?>!??!? :angry:
-
It probably does, but we need Ultimarc and GGG to come out with USB force sensors before it can be truly authentic. ;D
-
Not according to KLOV. They were force sensitive.
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9803 (http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9803)
Miscellaneous
The dedicated versions of the game used special pneumatic controls that were connected directly to the game board via air hoses. Depending upon how hard the control was hit, the game would choose the type of hit the player character would perform. These controls wore out or would constantly require adjustment due to abuse.
-
I say we get a dispute going on whether Mame supports original controls for Arm Champs II so me and my friends can break our arms. :)
(I seriously had a friend who got his arm broken playing this game. I still tease him to this day. I guess it happens every so often though depending on your arms position and how much resistance the machine owner set because you can adjust it. I read an article about them pulling this and another arm wrestling machine out of places in Japan because they were breaking people's arms.) LOL
-
Given that KLOV doesn't define how the game could "choose" and that the board has no interface at all on it to communicate with pneumatic hoses, pretty sure that was a blind mechanical device that shorted out inputs on the JAMMA connector.
If there were hoses and pneumatic switches, you can be sure that there was something other than a simple contact closure going on. It would be utterly foolhardy to make something like that, when normal pushbuttons used for the previous 20 years would do it much more cheaply and reliably.
I'd love to see such a setup in existence. I thought Ray was goofing when he mentioned it. :P
-
I played a Street Fighter with these buttons back when I was a teen. Either the machine I played was already faulty or the buttons weren't that responsive. It felt like punching bean bags. And you ended up paying more attention to hitting the buttons as hard as you could than actually playing, resulting in losing your ass. Although I was still a kid when I played. I think I would much rather play with the standard controls myself which is how I usually played it anyhow at the 711 by my house. heh
-
I say we get a dispute going on whether Mame supports original controls for Arm Champs II so me and my friends can break our arms. :)
(I seriously had a friend who got his arm broken playing this game. I still tease him to this day. I guess it happens every so often though depending on your arms position and how much resistance the machine owner set because you can adjust it. I read an article about them pulling this and another arm wrestling machine out of places in Japan because they were breaking people's arms.) LOL
Apparently 'Sonic Blast Man' was breaking arms too - from KLOV:
Taito lost a class action suit for 50,000 to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission CPSC because of injuries sustained by players of ISonic Blast ManI. The CPSC alleges that between 1991 and 1994, Taito failed to report about 70 cases in which young players fractured or injured wrists and arms as a result of hitting the Blast Mans punching pad.
Funny video review of it in action (in MAME) here:
Weird Video Games - Sonic Blast Man (Arcade) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC9KSsELLcE#)
-
WHY THE HELL DOESN'T MAME SUPPORT PNEUMATIC BUTTONS IN STREET FIGHTER!>!?>!?>!??!? :angry:
Technically it's handled with a 'hack' too, essentially for similar reasons, it's impossible to test otherwise.
Internally the game converts an analog input to be one of 3 different strengths, MAME just provides the correct value for each 'strength' and maps them as if it were buttons, there isn't really anything analog about the game logic.
The later set of the game just expects buttons.
I suppose X2 is going to say the original controller was revolutionary and it just doesn't play correctly without the hit pads tho, and that Capcom be damned for forcing everybody just use buttons on all their later fighting games so that weak people could play them.
Even Capcom realised the novelty controller was a gimmick ;-)
(Sonic Blastman etc. actually had a real analog input that scaled directly to your strength value in the game however, still a gimmick, but the game was a gimmick)
-
.
-
I say you are stoking a fire, when it should have been extinguished long ago.
What are we trying to achieve here after 11 pages?
Showing that 720 is far from the only case where devs will code things to make life easier for themselves ;-)
Showing that just because some arcade hardware devs designed some custom input device doesn't make it godly, untouchable and 'the way the game should be played' or even really a good idea at all ;-)
I should ask you more why you're posting utter tripe about MAME and lag on Mameworld, when you already know all the reasons.
-
I say you are stoking a fire, when it should have been extinguished long ago.
What are we trying to achieve here after 11 pages?
It's cold here in northern Illinois. Fire Good! ;D
-
I thought Ray was goofing when he mentioned it. :P
So did I, but I wasn't sure so I checked KLOV.
-
I'm pretty sure that Ray doesn't give a crap about the pneumatic buttons on SF ... the guy had an Atari Dominos in his collection (and it looks really great beside my Exidy 440 Multi!!!).
:afro:
-
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850591.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850591.pdf)
Some interesting stuff here.
-
Ah well, I thumbed through that. It looks like at some points it says it's sending an analog signal to the board, and at other points it's saying that the button feeds a 'pressure sensor' that in turn sends regular old button inputs to the board. I really can't imagine that they'd waste the processing power needed to analyze those inputs in real time when it could all be done mechanically, but who knows...
:dunno
Yeah, I was going to point out that patent but cotmm beat me to it.
The patent (and pictures of each version) show that the pneumatic buttons actually have a tube leading away. On the only PCB picture I can find (KLOV), there doesn't seem to be any place for a four tubes to be plugged in. On column 5 about the third paragraph down, it describes a pressure sensor (which is conveniently not shown) and later it describes what sounds like a voltage divider. Knowing you're going to need three inputs for each buttons, doesn't that sound like a 4 bit A/D converter with one bit unused? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually asking. I'm guessing there's actually a daughter board that accompanies each button. This is the most likely scenario because someone on the KLOV mentions having this cab converted to six buttons, wants to convert it back to the pneumatic, actually has the pneumatics but doesn't have the wiring harness.
In a nutshell... there's a daughter board that does all the heavy lifting.
-
I do love how patents are written, the whole part describing the controls sounds like a giant innuendo:
"Each Control unit comprises a universal operating rod and a pair of pneumatic operating devices."
"Rearward pivoting of the rod causes the fighter to assume a crouching or half-sitting posture" :lol
-
From looking at photos of the SF pneumatic buttons, I really, really, really doubt that they are sending an analog input to the board.
They are
/* The world version has analog buttons */
/* We simulate them with 3 buttons the same way the other versions
internally do */
static const int scale[8] = { 0x00, 0x40, 0xe0, 0xfe, 0xfe, 0xfe, 0xfe, 0xfe };
static READ16_HANDLER( button1_r )
{
return (scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN3")] << 8) | scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN1")];
}
static READ16_HANDLER( button2_r )
{
return (scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN4")] << 8) | scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN2")];
}
The newer sets simply expect buttons. The older sets have 2 analog ports. MAME treats them all the same via this simulation, because it's just a stupid gimmick anyway, but they really did design it like that. It's obvious from the game code, and what it expects, and the changes they made.
-
From looking at photos of the SF pneumatic buttons, I really, really, really doubt that they are sending an analog input to the board.
They are
/* The world version has analog buttons */
/* We simulate them with 3 buttons the same way the other versions
internally do */
static const int scale[8] = { 0x00, 0x40, 0xe0, 0xfe, 0xfe, 0xfe, 0xfe, 0xfe };
static READ16_HANDLER( button1_r )
{
return (scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN3")] << 8) | scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN1")];
}
static READ16_HANDLER( button2_r )
{
return (scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN4")] << 8) | scale[input_port_read(space->machine, "IN2")];
}
The newer sets simply expect buttons. The older sets have 2 analog ports. MAME treats them all the same via this simulation, because it's just a stupid gimmick anyway, but they really did design it like that. It's obvious from the game code, and what it expects, and the changes they made.
Hack, Hack, Hack. I demand it be removed. I want to hook up my real controls. :lol
On a more serious note, could you imagine the flack we would get if we removed the hacked controls and set the ports to analog?
What some people don't realize is that using hacked controls in this way is also somewhat left up to the driver's author. Lacking support for selection between real/fake controls, that no one is interested in writing, this is how it is done.
-
What some people don't realize is that using hacked controls in this way is also somewhat left up to the driver's author. Lacking support for selection between real/fake controls, that no one is interested in writing, this is how it is done.
Presumeably no one is interested in writing it because not many games need custom support in the first place, only the few people with original controllers would care anyway, and in those few cases there's usually someone that has hacked MAME themselves and released a patch anyway. All seems perfectly reasonable really - you'd think that everyone would be happy...
-
.
-
No need to reply I know the answer. But it is fascinating considering how much technology has progressed from a z80 (or emulated z80) today.
Well the old emulated z80 might have been good enough to emulate game X, ---fudgesicle--- timings, they weren't important, just emulate the opcodes, it works.
Then we found game Y, which required some undocumented behavior of the z80 to be emulated, and more accurate timings.
Then we found game Z, which required further opcodes to be perfected, and strange behavior related the the actual microcode of the chip under extreme conditions in order to work properly.
Then we found game XYZ which required not only perfect timings, but manufacturer differences between each revision of the Z80 in order to work.
Do you seriously expect us to keep around 3 imperfect versions of the core just to keep you happy? It's stupid, MAME will emulate things, improve in accuracy, and as a result, yes, things get slower.
New technology advances at such a rate that even a budget PC will run 95% of the supported systems at full speed.
It's progress. It has a price. Live with it.
-
Thats 11 pages of my life i'll never get back. Wow ladies, you all got your panties in a knot! Personally, I would like to offer my left nut, to nicola and aaron, and all of the mamedevs for making my childhood dreams a reality. I ---smurfing--- love you guys. You are an inspiration. :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
The rest of you sound like greedy babies. :angry:
-
Bottom line: It's open source. Change what you don't like/want added/removed.
We're all receiving a free meal and then bitching that we were handed a steak dinner when we wanted a lobster.
-
How is that progress?
Seems pretty obvious - it's progress because the emulation is becoming more detailed (hence accurate) over time, which of course has a performance hit.
Yes, MAME could have a whole bunch of simplified variants of all the CPUs, and use the simplest one that seems to work for any given game, but that's a lot more code to maintain over just
having the full models and using them for everything. Maintaining all those simplified models would take a whole load of extra effort, it would be a breeding ground for bugs, and the only benefit would
be faster emulation of certain games. No benefit whatsoever for accuracy of emulation.
So, MAME gets slower over time as a side-effect of getting closer to its stated objective of accuracy. But all the old releases are still available if you prefer them. What exactly is the problem?
-
Wow, what a depressing train wreck this thread has become.
I think it's been clear for some time that MAME has lost its way. I can't remember the last time I got excited about a new release. To be fair, I haven't really noticed the slowdowns that others have experienced (possibly because I mostly play older games) but I haven't really seen clear improvements for some time either. I assumed the reason for this was simply because most of the important work had already been done and therefore developers had got bored and left. No doubt that's partly true. However, thanks to this thread, I now realise that there is also a lot of toxic politics going on behind the scenes. It's really sad to see a project that has given me hours of pleasure, and which I still have a lot of affection for, descend into this state.
If things continue as they are, then I can only really see two possible outcomes:
The first scenario is that the remaining MAME developers become increasingly introverted and continue to cut themselves off from the user community who they perceive (mostly unfairly IMHO) as being ungrateful, demanding and entitled. If that happens then we're likely to see few if any new developers, fewer bug reporters, fewer ROM dumpers etc., as most of those people are recruited from the game playing community. The official MAME project will slowly but surely grind to a halt.
The second scenario is that a new group of developers create a fork from a faster old version of MAME and add the features that people are asking for. Over time the forked version diverges from the official build and eventually eclipses it. It certainly won't happen overnight. But given the large numbers of people who appear to be sticking with ancient versions of MAME I see this as a fairly likely scenario in the longer term. At first glance it appear to be a fairly good outcome for the end user. However, in reality, it leads to duplication of effort and wastes resources. The end users will effectively be forced to choose between having access to the latest games and bugfixes, or having the best possible emulation experience. To me that seems a terrible shame. I've seen other open source projects fork in this way, and it takes years for them to get back on track.
This split between (some) developers and (some) users is not benefiting anyone. And I see it as being entirely unnecessary. I don't see why MAME can't "document the hardware" and simultaneously provide the best possible emulation experience on the widest possible range of hardware. The two aims are not mutually incompatible.
-
Do you seriously expect us to keep around 3 imperfect versions of the core just to keep you happy? It's stupid, MAME will emulate things, improve in accuracy, and as a result, yes, things get slower.
I don't "expect" you to do anything. As has already been pointed out ad nauseum throughout this thread, it is entirely your prerogative to amend the code in any way you see fit and I respect that.
However, to answer your question in another way, I do think it's highly desirable to keep old code in the official build if it provides proven benefits such as better performance. Personally I think it's bad programming practice to rely on Moore's law to get you out of trouble. I'm perfectly OK with the old code only being available as a compile time option. I could even live with just a diff file being available as long as there was a commitment to keep it compatible with future versions of MAME. But please, I implore you, don't rip the code out altogether. This is precisely why increasing numbers of people are choosing to stick with very old versions of MAME. For some people out there that "imperfect" code might be the difference between MAME being usable and unusable.
As I said earlier, the people who are driven away from the current build of MAME are the potential new developers, bug reporters etc. of tomorrow.
-
Do you seriously expect us to keep around 3 imperfect versions of the core just to keep you happy? It's stupid, MAME will emulate things, improve in accuracy, and as a result, yes, things get slower.
I don't "expect" you to do anything. As has already been pointed out ad nauseum throughout this thread, it is entirely your prerogative to amend the code in any way you see fit and I respect that.
However, to answer your question in another way, I do think it's highly desirable to keep old code in the official build if it provides proven benefits such as better performance. Personally I think it's bad programming practice to rely on Moore's law to get you out of trouble. I'm perfectly OK with the old code only being available as a compile time option. I could even live with just a diff file being available as long as there was a commitment to keep it compatible with future versions of MAME. But please, I implore you, don't rip the code out altogether. This is precisely why increasing numbers of people are choosing to stick with very old versions of MAME. For some people out there that "imperfect" code might be the difference between MAME being usable and unusable.
As I said earlier, the people who are driven away from the current build of MAME are the potential new developers, bug reporters etc. of tomorrow.
It's entirely impractical however. If you multiply keeping x versions of each core, each driver, each video implementation across the codebase then you'd end up with something 5x bigger than it is now, and 100x less maintainable.
Doing as you suggest will not encourage development, nor will it make MAME better.
Byuu tried EXACTLY this approach with BSnes, keeping various versions of his renderers around in order to appease people looking for performance. In the end, he (as a developer) decided it simply wasn't worth it. It was a nightmare to maintain. The simple question of 'where to apply fixes' suddenly has no answer.
If somebody forks an old version they will (quickly) find themselves taking the same paths as the official dev team, and find their version ends up just as slow as the official one as they actually reinvent the wheel, and discover, and therefore have to support new features in order to progress.
Either that, or they end up with an unmaintainable mess.
Don't kid yourself, old versions weren't 'better', they were just full of hacks, full of inaccurate emulations, and full of code which in the end couldn't be maintained, and was dropped. The codebase as it stands now is far more appealing to developers than it ever has been, this is not the issue. Keeping legacy code around, in any project, is not desirable. MAME is no exception. One of the reasons Windows is such an absolute mess is the legacy support.
Some (very) old versions had the compile time option of an x86 assembler, or C core for the 68k emulation. This generated false reports, and gave users a worse experience (some broken games with the ASM core even if it was faster) leaving them thinking that MAME was broken, when really it was because they were using the wrong core (speed over accuracy), but didn't have the technical knowledge to know/understand this. Again, multiply this for every component in MAME and you have a mess. In the end, the x86 core was dropped, it wasn't portable, it wasn't accurate, it had bugs, and people were compiling it in because it was 'faster' without telling people using the binaries that it was also liable to break stuff.
Again, I should stress, MAME has outlasted every other emulator pretty much for these exact reasons, progress is always progress and always welcome, there is no desire to hang on to legacy junk, developers aren't having to spend time, and apply fixes to and test 5 different versions of the same thing, or have to deal with bug reports in similar conditions.
This isn't politics, it's common sense.
If somebody _wants_ to try what you're suggesting they're more than welcome, however, I absolutely guarantee you that they will fail, and most developers or potential developers will see that before they even start, which is why it's never been done with any great success. The ones who HAVE tried have quickly ended up seeing the vast amount of progress made in new versions, and the simple impossibility of porting some newer code over to old systems where a great deal of the functionality that is required, or makes MAME easy to program for simply doesn't exist, and can't be backported. The guys doing 'uberMAME' have tried this, and end up spending half their time trying to fix things which have already been fixed, and pestering the devs with questions which simply have no answers because they're using such an old version.
The viewpoint from a 'user' might be different, which is understandable, however, it doesn't change the basic facts.
There has actually been quite a bit of a 'buzz' about MAME recently, although, if the areas concerned don't interest you, again it's understandable that it would pass you by.
MAME _is_ providing the best possible user experience while striving to be a maintainable, forward-moving project.
For all the moaning about hiscore removal and such you have to remember that due to the bugs things like this was causing (and false bug reports as a result) it wasn't actually a 'good thing', which is why it was dropped. For all the moaning about controls, again you have to remember that the mainstream version of MAME is providing default configurations aimed at the majority of the userbase. For the moaning about speed, hardware is cheap, MAME is providing the best emulation we can give, making most efficient use of developer time. MAME is also not going to provide emulation options which _break_ the emulation on purpose, again to ensure that everybody gets the same experience, and bugs can be dealt with accordingly.
Next version (or maybe the one after) will have full sound support in Batsugun. That's a monumental achievement for a 'landmark' shooter. The game has been emulated for 10 years without sound, in MAME and several different emulators (Raine, FBA, + some other forgotten ones) It's only because of the dedication of people working on MAME to emulate every last little feature of CPU variations that this is going to be possible. People have been asking for this from the day it was first emulated, combine that with my graphic improvements on it from last year and it will finally be _perfect_, in other words, compared to every other emulation of the game anywhere else, ever, MAME will be giving the best experience BECAUSE of the development philosophy.
Don't take this as anything personal, just statements like 'MAME has lost it's way, and will be eclipsed by older versions' really have little grounds in reality. There ARE areas where the project does seem to have lost it's way, but none of them are the ones you actually mention, and while you personally may not have noticed all the progress over the years I assure you, it still exists ;-) In terms of sheer number of hours work put into the project it has to be one of the biggest and most significant projects to be found online and dismissing that entirely is rather insulting to the people who have been dedicating their time to it and can tell you exactly where MAME has improved.
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As both a programmer and Mame user myself I can understand the split the Mame community is finding itself in. I can understand both points of view and IMHO there is no right or wrong here. Users "want" Mame to support more and more games and writing different drivers and hacks for each and every game is absolutely impossible, so more mainstream software is necessary, requiring more processing power to run. People who don't write software themselves tend to oversee this issue, I guess. On the other hand (and being a programmer I realise this), programmers also tend to want better (more organised, more "beautiful") code, sometimes resulting in slower -but more useable- code. Let's be honest: hacks look ugly, but they're always faster ;)
I hope the Mame development community will stay around for a while, since I love seeing and playing these old games. Maybe it's an idea to split development into era's? I can imagine there's much difference between code running '90's and code running '80's games? The code running the older software might be able to run on less impressive hardware. Just my 2 cents.
Anyway: I think the Mame dev's are doing a great job!! :applaud:
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I hope the Mame development community will stay around for a while, since I love seeing and playing these old games. Maybe it's an idea to split development into era's? I can imagine there's much difference between code running '90's and code running '80's games? The code running the older software might be able to run on less impressive hardware. Just my 2 cents.
Again, it's been suggested before, but in reality it's just giving twice as much to maintain.
In terms of hardware there is a huge overlap, you can't simply split 80s from 90s, there is simply no clear point to even divide even if the idea was feasible in other ways (which it isn't)
There are gambling games from 2010 using a z80 as the main CPU. That's the same main CPU Pacman used back in 1980, the new hardware has more colours, and can scroll, but has no sprites.
Even earlier, different companies went in different directions. Early 90s Sega started pushing out their 32-bit system32, with all sorts of fancy features while Capcom and SNK continued with what was basically late 80s hardware (CPS and NeoGeo) right up until the mid 2000s.
Most of the concepts are common between systems tho, some just have more / less functionality, even 3d systems like Sega Model 1/2 were built off existing technology (System 24 tilemaps) You simply *can't* split it in any logical way which isn't just going to make things harder.
Even today with home systems things aren't much clearer, just look at the Wii, it's a GameCube upgraded and repackaged, it's not even in the same generation as the 360 and PS3 from a technical point of view.
Everything really has developed the way it has for a reason...
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Haze, you make a good case but I still think you're wrong.
I should firstly point out that in my day job I'm a software developer (mostly C and PERL). However, as I've only ever experienced MAME from the end user's side of the fence, I've chosen to wear my user's hat for the purposes of this discussion. It is my intention to get my head round MAME's source code at some point but real life has a nasty habit of getting in the way of my plans.
I do understand the necessity for code to be clean and easily maintainable. But what I don't accept is that properly written code will automatically be slower than hacked code. Maybe in some cases but in my experience it's mostly the opposite. It generally takes more care and effort to come up with the optimal algorithm for solving a problem. Sometimes the quick and dirty solutions are actually slower.
The reality is, as ark_ader has already pointed out, that the size of programs tends to expand over time to fit the resources available. You mentioned that Windows is a mess because of the legacy support. But that's only part of the story. Windows has also become bloated because the developers have been spoilt by ever increasing processor speeds and memory sizes.
I don't see software bloat as inevitable. When Vista first appeared and required vastly more memory than XP and ran like a snail in comparison, we were told that it was the price that users had to pay if they wanted extra features like semi-transparent windows (most didn't). This is a line that Microsoft stuck to for some time. No doubt some of their developers felt irritated that their efforts weren't properly appreciated, and that the users should stop moaning, upgrade their hardware, and accept "progress".
However, when it looked like Microsoft might lose the netbook market to Linux they pulled their fingers out and came up with Windows 7 which offers similar performance to XP combined with all the extra features (and more) of Vista.
When it comes to programming, necessity is the mother of invention. I'm pretty sure that if computers weren't getting faster then MAME wouldn't be getting slower.
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The subject has been brought up before - why not just develop Mame for Linux and do away with Windoze based machines?
I'm a Linux nut, so from a purely selfish point of view, I think that's highly desirable. But I don't think it's practical at the moment because not enough people use or understand Linux. However, I would agree that the mamedevs have nailed their colours too firmly to the Windows mast. A lot of MAME's limitations appear to be caused by Windows' limitations.
Personally, I think they should have continued basing development around the MSDOS version. Yes MSDOS is primitive and old fashioned. But in this context I see that as a positive. It would have imposed discipline on the developers not to base MAME's features on features (or limitations) of the underlying OS.
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Whhaaaa, why can't I run the newest Acrobat Reader; Office; Adobe Audition; Windows; Leisure Suit Larry; MAME; etc on my old P2. I can't believe you people are serious. For all of them you are free to use older versions that worked on that hardware. To demand that the latest version work on something that is barely fast enough to play MP3s is insane. You have been told that this is a hobby. Would you prefer 95% of our hobby time be spent maintaining old versions?
You have been told ad nauseum that Donkey Kong now uses a discrete simulation that generates the waveforms in real time based on the electrical circuit. This replaces the old inaccurate samples. So yes it is slower. Oh well, it still runs 13 times faster then the real thing on my obsolete Core 2.
You have been told you are free to maintain old versions yourself, but won't because you are too lazy; can't bother to learn programming; not insane enough to bother; etc. Instead there are the continual demands that your needs are more important then the needs of those that actually do the code. If you want your needs to be that important, step up and do/maintain the code yourself.
Haze, here is no hope.
For the undemanding people, sorry for all the ranting. For the demanding people, I demand that you make me an arcade machine in your spare time and drive it to my house.
I think I need to leave these forums so I can return to sanity.
Take care
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What I do not understand that you have a project that has been developed to emulate several (in today's standards) basic processors like the z80, 65xx and even the 808x series cores, that have multiple operating requirements. What should have worked on a P2 should still work on at least on a P3 (quite a margin there) and not having a requirement of a 1ghz processor. If that part of the game/core is loaded off disc and retained in memory, should it be moot what kind of platform you are running it from (obviously from the target platforms as described)?
Unless you have engineered the software to operate as a complete entity than just targeting the relevant core. That would make more sense, in light of the availability of hardware. Which would explain why I cannot run the latest build on a stock P3 and have the classic games just lag. I'm not expecting any games that require CHDs, or are more complex to zip along. Dkong should run out of the box on any build with the minimal platform of P3,128mb, 1mb VGA.
There's more to it than that.
Old versions ran in 8-bit screenmodes. New version run using D3D, usually in a 32-bit mode. That instantly means you're doing 4x the work.
Supporting 8-bit screenmodes was a pain, it was done, because at the time most PC hardware didn't support 32-bit modes (15/16 bit modes were a mess and you were lucky if they worked properly)
To support these modes every MAME driver had to have code in it in order to track which colours were being displayed when, mid-screen palette tricks weren't possible, and the whole thing was incredibly limiting because MAME had to start approximating (which caused all sorts of problems) if a game tried to display more than 256 colours at any point. This wasn't fun to work with, and the code to support it / maintain it just got in the way of other stuff.
These days 8-bit modes are the ones that don't work, supporting them, even if we could makes no sense. Technology has changed, it's moved on.
In addition to this there were other 'optimizations' such as only updating the parts of the display that had changed, again this just about worked for some older titles, but again required specific coding in each driver to mark areas of the screen as dirty. It was messy, ugly code which as time has passed we've been able to do away with.
These are all positive changes for the project, as they make it easier to work with. The cost of a new system is FAR less than the cost of trying to maintain this kind of legacy support.
Current versions of MAME have their own form of optimization in the form of caching (tiles, tilemaps) etc. which again may change in order to make the code cleaner and more maintainable as things develop.
It's evolution. MAME isn't slower now because the code is worse, in most cases it's slower because the code is better, cleaner, and _more reliable_
Also there is no such thing as a 'simple' processor really. It all depends on what level you emulate it at. The 68k core in MAME runs probably 50% of the supported titles in MAME at the moment, that's a lot of them, but there are areas in which it could be improved (and should be improved) which could cut the speed of the emulation in half. (Interruptable instructions, sub-opcode timing -- if the MAME cores are to be used as the basis of a good Atari ST emulator they will need to support such features)
The discrete games will be slower than anything currently supported if they ever run in MAME, because everything has to be emulated at gate / logic level! You might call those 'simple' doesn't mean they'll be fast, or 'simple' in terms of emulation.
MAME provides documentation and technology, reference emulation and cores which other people can refer to. The target platform(s) are roughly dictated by what the developers own, and are happy developing with, optimizations are targeted at THAT point. MAME is hardly going to switch over to being primarily developer on Linux when most of the active devs have no interest in Linux at all, nor is it going to be optimized for 10 year old systems at the expense of good code. Did anybody say 'side-effect' ?
Again, keeping old, broken versions of the code around doesn't make sense. Nobody is going to maintain them, and they're just going to break further. If you want old versions, they're on the web-site. If you want _support_ for old versions, you're on your own. We make progress, and offer our own form of support, it's called releasing NEW versions.
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Whhaaaa, why can't I run the newest Acrobat Reader; Office; Adobe Audition; Windows; Leisure Suit Larry; MAME; etc on my old P2. I can't believe you people are serious. For all of them you are free to use older versions that worked on that hardware. To demand that the latest version work on something that is barely fast enough to play MP3s is insane. You have been told that this is a hobby. Would you prefer 95% of our hobby time be spent maintaining old versions?
You have been told ad nauseum that Donkey Kong now uses a discrete simulation that generates the waveforms in real time based on the electrical circuit. This replaces the old inaccurate samples. So yes it is slower. Oh well, it still runs 13 times faster then the real thing on my obsolete Core 2.
You have been told you are free to maintain old versions yourself, but won't because you are too lazy; can't bother to learn programming; not insane enough to bother; etc. Instead there are the continual demands that your needs are more important then the needs of those that actually do the code. If you want your needs to be that important, step up and do/maintain the code yourself.
Haze, here is no hope.
For the undemanding people, sorry for all the ranting. For the demanding people, I demand that you make me an arcade machine in your spare time and drive it to my house.
I think I need to leave these forums so I can return to sanity.
Take care
:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:
For hopefully the final time, no one's "demanding" anything, at least not in any recent posts. We're just expressing our opinions. That is, after all, the whole raison d'etre of an internet forum.
I really don't understand your attitude. Most developers would welcome feedback. I know from my own experience that you can get too close to a project and lose objectivity. It's healthy to seek objective feedback from an outsider who is not afraid to express their views.
If you don't want feedback then that's absolutely fine. But if that's the case, then why bother coming here in the first place?
I've tried very hard to remain polite despite some provocation. But I'm getting really tired of treading on eggshells just because you and Haze are super-sensitive to even the mildest criticism of MAME.
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Whhaaaa, why can't I run the newest Acrobat Reader; Office; Adobe Audition; Windows; Leisure Suit Larry; MAME; etc on my old P2. I can't believe you people are serious. For all of them you are free to use older versions that worked on that hardware. To demand that the latest version work on something that is barely fast enough to play MP3s is insane. You have been told that this is a hobby. Would you prefer 95% of our hobby time be spent maintaining old versions?
You have been told ad nauseum that Donkey Kong now uses a discrete simulation that generates the waveforms in real time based on the electrical circuit. This replaces the old inaccurate samples. So yes it is slower. Oh well, it still runs 13 times faster then the real thing on my obsolete Core 2.
You have been told you are free to maintain old versions yourself, but won't because you are too lazy; can't bother to learn programming; not insane enough to bother; etc. Instead there are the continual demands that your needs are more important then the needs of those that actually do the code. If you want your needs to be that important, step up and do/maintain the code yourself.
Haze, here is no hope.
For the undemanding people, sorry for all the ranting. For the demanding people, I demand that you make me an arcade machine in your spare time and drive it to my house.
I think I need to leave these forums so I can return to sanity.
Take care
:dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy:
For hopefully the final time, no one's "demanding" anything, at least not in any recent posts. We're just expressing our opinions. That is, after all, the whole raison d'etre of an internet forum.
I really don't understand your attitude. Most developers would welcome feedback. I know from my own experience that you can get too close to a project and lose objectivity. It's healthy to seek objective feedback from an outsider who is not afraid to express their views.
If you don't want feedback then that's absolutely fine. But if that's the case, then why bother coming here in the first place?
I've tried very hard to remain polite despite some provocation. But I'm getting really tired of treading on eggshells just because you and Haze are super-sensitive to even the mildest criticism of MAME.
I wouldn't say we were super-sensitive, we're just explaining the reasoning for things here. Everything has been done as it's been done for good reason, the suggestions made simply aren't practical, and we're explaining why rather than just ignoring them without giving you reasons / explanations. What would you prefer? Choices to be explained, or for you to be rudely blanked?
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I wouldn't say we were super-sensitive, we're just explaining the reasoning for things here. Everything has been done as it's been done for good reason, the suggestions made simply aren't practical, and we're explaining why rather than just ignoring them without giving you reasons / explanations. What would you prefer? Choices to be explained, or for you to be rudely blanked?
I have no problem with the explanations per se. On the contrary, I actually find them interesting even if I sometimes disagree with the conclusions reached. But I do have a big issue with the tone in which they're often expressed.
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I do understand the necessity for code to be clean and easily maintainable. But what I don't accept is that properly written code will automatically be slower than hacked code. Maybe in some cases but in my experience it's mostly the opposite. It generally takes more care and effort to come up with the optimal algorithm for solving a problem. Sometimes the quick and dirty solutions are actually slower.
Not always true. I can remember some nasty tricks on the Commodore64 to do things quick & dirty, but it did not always work because of unforeseen circumstances. I remember the same problems in Windows when programmers tried to cut a corner and do things without using the proper API's. The results were faster working software, but since you were doing things out of Windows' control, crashes were often the result of this. It did however also result in quicker and smaller code. With '70's and '80's computers having such small RAM, programmers were always looking for cracks in the system to pull more from it's hardware than was deemed possible. I can only imagine how hard it must be to emulate all this stuff in a controllable and manageable way.
Ofcourse Mame has become bloated over the years, but I can imagine the need for that from the developers' point of view: they want to develop a system that supports as much software from the old (and not so old) days as possible. You can write an emulator for every single game out there or you can try and create a system that supports tons of hard- and software (look at Windows and it's driver base).
What I don't seem to understand is: why do users complain about the newer versions of Mame not running on their old systems when they can just keep using older versions?
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Exactly why the thread got locked on the Mameworld forum. Criticism is not welcomed. Mameworld like some hypocritical exclusive fan club, where only the devs have the right of way. This board has no pretense, so our views are not silenced, so please do not think we are smacking you guys. We thank you very much for your efforts, but it is the effort that is important as is the direction.
BS, At least as far as devs are concerned. I'm not even allowed to post there, or be mentioned there. That said, their mods are pretty pathetic and will stick up for the regulars whatever.
The Mamedevs are coding it for themselves to appear as rock stars to the community, other than dedicated individuals with a goal to archive arcade games- that is simple to see.
BS, If that were the case, would we be sticking around, working on drivers for Mahjong games etc?
Do these arcade games have native D3D? No. Why start modifying their behavior when it is obvious you have to stick with what you have to work with based on that machine. Nobody has asked you to do this have they? Who? The kiddies?
More BS, It's the current expected Windows presentation interface. Ddraw is deprecated, D3D is the expected way to present applications, even 2D ones.
At this point you're sounding clueless. We're hardly going to turn around to Microsoft and say 'We don't want to use D3D, please add something else'
I concur about the DOS platform. But you can contain yourselves much better if you pick on a Linux distribution that provides the resources, and let the user worry about trying to get it to work. Besides its the side effect to get the games to work anyway right?
Stop trying to tell the developers what platform they should be using?
There are other projects I would have liked to contribute for, but requiring Linux makes it near impossible, dependency issues, compiler issues, and just trying to get the damn thing working properly is a nightmare. MAME is plug-and-play-easy even for developers. You have Windows, you download the compile package, you download the source, you compile. It works. That's 99% of the people who are going to contribute sorted.
Whhaaaa, why can't I run the newest Acrobat Reader; Office; Adobe Audition; Windows; Leisure Suit Larry; MAME; etc on my old P2. I can't believe you people are serious. For all of them you are free to use older versions that worked on that hardware. To demand that the latest version work on something that is barely fast enough to play MP3s is insane. You have been told that this is a hobby. Would you prefer 95% of our hobby time be spent maintaining old versions?
You have been told ad nauseum that Donkey Kong now uses a discrete simulation that generates the waveforms in real time based on the electrical circuit. This replaces the old inaccurate samples. So yes it is slower. Oh well, it still runs 13 times faster then the real thing on my obsolete Core 2.
You have been told you are free to maintain old versions yourself, but won't because you are too lazy; can't bother to learn programming; not insane enough to bother; etc. Instead there are the continual demands that your needs are more important then the needs of those that actually do the code. If you want your needs to be that important, step up and do/maintain the code yourself.
Haze, here is no hope.
For the undemanding people, sorry for all the ranting. For the demanding people, I demand that you make me an arcade machine in your spare time and drive it to my house.
I think I need to leave these forums so I can return to sanity.
Take care
That attitude is because you know exactly what the problem is, but instead of finding ways to resolve it - you run away. Probably because you know I am going about this discussion in a more forward way than you are used to, or like my above suggestion that this point would not have been raised in Mameworld as it would have been silenced. Deal with it. You want me to make you an arcade machine with a quad core 12gb 64bit OS and a 22" LCD display to play Donkey Kong, instead of a CRT,mainboard, controls, some wood and a PSU? That is the same argument that Haze is suggesting.
Now we are getting to the crux of the issue. Not the 720 hacks, or the dearth of programming. It is the ideals of the coders that is in question to add all this bloat that should not be there.
Actually I have the latest Adobe Reader, Office 2003, and a crap load of games running happily on a P2, including Mame .32. The fact that it still runs in XP after all these years at the same speed is not of some amazement, as it just works and does what it says on side of the tin. I'm not the only one here with this issue. Why should we have to upgrade to a enterprise server capable PC play to something that is 30 years old? :dunno
I would like to see the classics run at full fps in the next build of Mame on the P3, if you guys wouldn't mind. ::)
Think of it as a challenge that is within your grasp. :banghead:
The REASON you get hostile replies is because you ask for them, making statements such as the ones you did above. Groundless, insulting statements towards the developers. The team WILL give as good as they get.
The dev team will not be bloating the code or stripping out accuracy in order for it to run on an ancient P3. You're failing to understand the reasons it no longer does, or purposely choosing to overlook them.
The Vivanono emulator was a fast 'emulator' for Ridge Racer, but in reality, it wasn't much of an emulator at all.. They REWROTE the entire physics engine and sound system of the game in their own code to avoid the CPU cost of emulating it. At that point it stops even being an emulator yet it's another thing people compare MAME to. UltraHLE ran N64 games quickly for similar reasons, they looked for common bits of code and replaced them all with native calls. Old arcade emulators such as Callus (or Nesticle / Genecyst from the same people) used tons of self-modifying x86 assembly code for their emulators. It was fast, but it wasn't portable, you probably wouldn't get away with doing it on a modern OS, and if you did it would probably set the alarmbells ringing on every bit of AV software out there.
The more streamlined, more accurate, LESS bloated, and less hacky an emulator gets, the slower it becomes. When your beloved .3x or whatever builds were released people were making the same complaints, that it was too slow compared to everything else out there that ran on a 486, or P1 yet now you talk about them as if they were gods gift to emulation.... The MAME philosophy hasn't changed, MAME has survived, MAME stayed ahead of the game by always offering a cleaner, easier development environment to developers than any other projects, as a result, it was always slower.
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For what it's worth since it seems to be coming up -- as long as folks follow the rules of civility (yeah, that's getting bent a bit), I'm not interested in stifling dissenting discussion. Please remember though there are thousands of other threads on the forums, and anyone's stated points are their own stated points, not necessarily reflective of the approximately 85,000 monthly visitors to the forums. It distresses me to think that someone would consider these threads the totality of the forums and leave because of them.
My 2 bits.
--- saint
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That is the question.
A comment is made by the posters point of view.
It doesn't reflect disrespect.
Just because you have an opinion.
It's funny that people keep saying that they're not trying to violate the civility rules for the forum, yet these "critiques" are made in a very aggressive and sometimes condescending manner. For example, "instead of finding ways to resolve it - you run away. Probably because you know I am going about this discussion in a more forward way than you are used to". How could you expect a positive response to a post that contains that line?
It's like watching a bunch of monkeys throw crap at each other.
I did enjoy reading the parts where the actual mame process was discussed, and related to that.. just to be clear. Is the focus of MAME right now to go back to the code and make changes for more accurate emulations of games that are already working?
Haze, as a mame dev, do you decide which game you work on? or are there other influences that dictate what games you work on? (i.e. donators, other mame devs, whether you have a buddy to help you on emulating a specific pcb).
Also, I know you've mentioned that you learned to work on the mame code by just messing around and reading through it, but did you have experience with coding before then?
How do you find time to work on this? I'm playing a very minor role in making scummvm videos and I'm having a hard time balancing that, time with the wifey, and school. Unfort. the scummvm videos are not being made as quickly as they should be because of that (but life comes first for me at least).
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That is the question.
A comment is made by the posters point of view.
It doesn't reflect disrespect.
Just because you have an opinion.
That said....
BS, At least as far as devs are concerned. I'm not even allowed to post there, or be mentioned there. That said, their mods are pretty pathetic and will stick up for the regulars whatever.
Why not? You rubbed shoulders with some of the best coders on the planet and chaired an important part of the Mame era. If anything you would be a Platinum Card Member.
Apparently I reposted some deleted post.. That's what my ban message says, I honestly have no clue. I disagreed with them over the treatment of some other forum member who they were ganging up on, disagreed with them over Midway by saying they deserved to be in the financial mess they're in, and got banned for my efforts with that reason. I can only *assume* it was because I was editing a post at the time it was deleted, and their stupid forum software isn't smart enough to tell me that. If you've noticed, I tend to post, then edit, then edit, then edit. Prevents me from losing what I write if something crashes.
BS, If that were the case, would we be sticking around, working on drivers for Mahjong games etc?
We know why you guys are coding Mahjong games. Do you think it is not an interesting point to raise considering?
Not really, no. It's just another case of you and other people trying to tell us why we do things.
More BS, It's the current expected Windows presentation interface. Ddraw is deprecated, D3D is the expected way to present applications, even 2D ones.
At this point you're sounding clueless. We're hardly going to turn around to Microsoft and say 'We don't want to use D3D, please add something else'
Well that would not be an issue if you were using DOS or Linux. What is wrong with OpenGL? I'm clueless for the questions I asked about D3D? I'm referring to DOS/Linux. ???
What's right with OpenGL? SDLMame uses OpenGL and it's caused nothing but problems, even on Linux. There is an article going about right now saying that the Firefox guys are having to disable GL support because the Linux drivers are pure garbage. Commercial studios have all but abandoned OGL on Windows, support out the box on a Windows system is dire. Why should I think it's any better? If you want to present via OGL, use SDLMame.. Most people don't use SDLMame on Windows, three guesses as to why.
Stop trying to tell the developers what platform they should be using?
Why not? Just because Visual Studio forgives you for some compiling issues. Heck I know all about the benefits of coding C++ and VS. Linux is very compatible platform to Mame is so many ways.
Who mentioned Visual Studio? MAME is compiled with a GCC toolchain, but a fixed one, not one which the entire operating system and all the other applications you have installed are depending on.
It CAN be compiled with Visual Studio's compiler, but it isn't a Visual Studio project. Again, you don't seem to have done any research here.
MAME is very strict about compiler warnings (everything has to compile cleanly) the number of false warnings buggy versions of GCC shipped with Linux and Mac distributions generate is absurd. Fixes for them are accepted, but having a single approved compile chain is much more relaible when it comes to regression testing, and ensuring bug reports are caused by bugs in MAME, not a buggy unapproved compiler that was shipped with your distro.
There are other projects I would have liked to contribute for, but requiring Linux makes it near impossible, dependency issues, compiler issues, and just trying to get the damn thing working properly is a nightmare. MAME is plug-and-play-easy even for developers. You have Windows, you download the compile package, you download the source, you compile. It works. That's 99% of the people who are going to contribute sorted.
But there is a huge community out there and they seem to compile their code OK using Linux..
My experiences with Linux have been shambolic at best. You have to jump through hoops for everything, it's quite the opposite of MAME's current development setup. The Linux guys can't even make their minds up over a desktop manager, or what you need installed to simply display something, or even get your system to make a sound without conflicting with other apps.
The community isn't really THAT big, and most Linux software is in more of a mess than you could ever claim MAME to be in.
The main problem is it's a community that lacks direction, and lacks vision. If they could focus their efforts instead of forking all over the place and going in different directions they might get somewhere, but it's not my place to go and troll their forums over it, because I have nothing to contribute, nor any real desire to. Your continued mentioning of forking of MAME and working from older versions seems to indicate that you believe such methodologies to be the way forward, when really they just lead to userbase confusion, developer confusion, a lack of management, a lack of overall direction and endless dependency conflicts between so called modern versions and distributions. I encourage you to try it if you really want, but I can't help but think you'll quickly find yourself getting nowhere.
With MAME you know what you're getting, and you know where the project is heading.
You might not 100% agree with it but there is minimal confusion, if you have a semi-recent version of Window you can compile the sources, or just run the binaries with 0 major issues. The same can't be said for Linux, at all, even Ubuntu had major issues with GL, Audio, SDL and MAME last I heard, and good luck just being able to pick up a binary and run it on an older distribution.
The REASON you get hostile replies is because you ask for them, making statements such as the ones you did above. Groundless, insulting statements towards the developers. The team WILL give as good as they get.
I understand why I get hostile replies, because I am an ---uvula---. Do not have the patience to articulate my sentences using the Good Samaritan guide to forum etiquette. But I am trying real hard. Groundless, now, maybe, but not back in the early days. Memories are short. But if you don't like an answer that then just call me an ---uvula--- and be done with it. Insulting? No. Considering what you guys dump on each other in MW, my tattle wouldn't qualify. I might get a laugh, if that.
It's polite to explain things. At least some people might find them educational and understand where we're coming from.
The dev team will not be bloating the code or stripping out accuracy in order for it to run on an ancient P3. You're failing to understand the reasons it no longer does, or purposely choosing to overlook them.
You see, that is the very issue. You guys haven't considered that fact. You just took it for granted everyone would just pony up and buy a faster system. Well people are losing their jobs and maybe they cannot afford a Cray to play Dkong on. Most likely they sold their gear to pay the mortgage, put food on the table. It will take us probably 10 years to catch up.
Your PC will break sooner or later, you will replace it with another more capable machine. As I said, this argument has been used ever since the old versions of MAME. Would you even consider using a 486 now? It used to be good enough! Why should the work of the dev team be significantly harder, the code less readable, the codebase less flexible, and the project less attractive to developers just because you don't want to shell out for a new system? You've failed to give a single good reason, ever.
The Vivanono emulator was a fast 'emulator' for Ridge Racer, but in reality, it wasn't much of an emulator at all.. They REWROTE the entire physics engine and sound system of the game in their own code to avoid the CPU cost of emulating it. At that point it stops even being an emulator yet it's another thing people compare MAME to. UltraHLE ran N64 games quickly for similar reasons, they looked for common bits of code and replaced them all with native calls. Old arcade emulators such as Callus (or Nesticle / Genecyst from the same people) used tons of self-modifying x86 assembly code for their emulators. It was fast, but it wasn't portable, you probably wouldn't get away with doing it on a modern OS, and if you did it would probably set the alarmbells ringing on every bit of AV software out there.
What does this have to do with this thread? You are talking about hacks. Mame is supposed to be running without hacks. Is it because of Mess we have bloat? Just fork it. I saw lots of updates relating to consoles in the previous recent updates. Consoles are not arcade machines. There are many that would pull my eyes out for saying that but in this context I'll chance it, and say fork it. I love Mess, and it works OK on my P3...well it did.
I'm explaining that it takes extra code non-emulation related code to make things faster. Many emulation optimizations could be considered at one level or another.
Many arcade systems are based on consoles, practically every major home system was used as the basis of an arcade system at some point. Home systems provide better stress testing of hardware components, and ultimately better emulation. It's near on essential for improving things, unless you have your head buried in the sand you should be able to connect this to the same points being made about Mahjong games / hardware. Anything that allows improvement to the emulation of the components MAME emulates, which are shared across a large amount of hardware is essential to forwarding the project. Very little isn't shared, the tech is the same, unsurprisingly.
Mess? It's never been THAT fast, and it was in severe danger of dying for various other reasons, mainly the atrocious state of the code and the console scene being full of people who DID want to be 'rock stars' and as a result were generally being unhelpful, and not wanting to share anything about the systems they emulated. Sadly the legacy of this lives on today in some areas, and is reflected in the general state of console ROM dumps etc. which is still pretty much a bombsite with people having hacked files to work with the emulators, rather than emulating the hardware.
I will say MESS has come miles in the last year or two tho mainly thanks to people from MAMEdev coming along, picking it up, and scrubbing it clean of a lot of the performance related hacks and such that were holding up progress. The work of genuinely decent people in the console scene like Byuu has also helped enormously. It's now a well developed emulator that for several of the systems it emulates is the best in the field (the extensively tested CPU cores from MAME have helped, many of the standalones still rely on the buggy x86 ASM 'starscream' core etc. which is fast, but falls over even on some fairly standard cases. The console fixes in MAME you're seeing are a direct result of MESS 'giving back' by providing fixes for explicit edge cases tripped by the cores under software running in MESS, who knows if these cases were being hit in MAME without us knowing.)
The two way feedback process with MAME has helped a lot here. Closer integration helps, not forking and pulling apart. Forking and pulling apart just leads to dead code, and dead projects.
The more streamlined, more accurate, LESS bloated, and less hacky an emulator gets, the slower it becomes. When your beloved .3x or whatever builds were released people were making the same complaints, that it was too slow compared to everything else out there that ran on a 486, or P1 yet now you talk about them as if they were gods gift to emulation.... The MAME philosophy hasn't changed, MAME has survived, MAME stayed ahead of the game by always offering a cleaner, easier development environment to developers than any other projects, as a result, it was always slower.
Do you include Neil Bradley, Dave Spicer, Zonn Moore as Gods gifts? I do. :) They set the bar.
Didn't they help out on .b30/.b32?
What do names have to do with anything? Seems like you're the one who is idolizing people as rock stars, not the actual devs.
My point was simple, even back then people were trying to use the same argument against MAME, people could run older versions and other emulators on their 486, MAME required a Pentium or greater. They were saying MAME would die because of this, and it was ridiculous to expect people to buy new hardware. The other emulators ended up dying out instead. Can you not see the connection?
MAME is scalable, the other projects didn't scale and became impossible to improve or further develop and were left behind. That's why so many people have gone from doing single game emulators to doing MAME.
Considering you claim to be researching stuff (which I still don't believe for a moment) you seem incredibly bad at linking things together, or taking in facts. This does not bode well for you.
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Considering you claim to be researching stuff (which I still don't believe for a moment) you seem incredibly bad at linking things together, or taking in facts. This does not bode well for you.
Well I'm not surprised you feel that way, I'm assure you that I am researching the subject. I might throw curve balls at you, but it is nothing short of laziness.
So we can expect the demise of SDLMAME?
That is interesting.
SDLMAME is part of the official distribution. As long as R.Belmont continues to maintain the OSD code relating to it, it will remain.
If R.Belmont stops maintaining the OSD code, and nobody picks it up, it will be dropped the same way as the DOS port was.
R.Belmont DOES develop in Linux, so it's in his own interests to keep maintaining.
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I haven't read most of the posts here and I don't have much to add to the debate, but I agree with points on each side. The only thing I would add to it is that for the past few years it seems whenever I look at a new MAME release for what games have been added it's generally some game where you remove squares to expose a naked little girl (I take it these are the mahjong games I see referenced). Seems tacky to me and a strange direction for MAME to go. Documentation? :dunno
The same can't be said for Linux, at all, even Ubuntu had major issues with GL, Audio, SDL and MAME last I heard, and good luck just being able to pick up a binary and run it on an older distribution.
I'm not a Linux-guy or a Windows-hater or anything but I have used the last several Ubuntu releases and I much prefer it to Windows. I've never had these graphics or sound issues in Linux. The only thing that holds me back from using it in an arcade cab is that I loathe every Linux frontend I've ever tried. After testing many Linux FEs I gave up and run MAME from command line.
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I haven't read most of the posts here and I don't have much to add to the debate, but I agree with points on each side. The only thing I would add to it is that for the past few years it seems whenever I look at a new MAME release for what games have been added it's generally some game where you remove squares to expose a naked little girl (I take it these are the mahjong games I see referenced). Seems tacky to me and a strange direction for MAME to go. Documentation? :dunno
Seemed like a strange direction for the industry to go, but, it sold.
As I said, it's not up to MAME to discriminate against certain genres of game because they're a steaming pile of poo.
There are examples of more interesting things happening in MAME tho.
Let's just say that R.Belmont, who maintains SDLMame and developers on Linux was telling people explicitly NOT to use Ubuntu for MAME, because it caused more problems than it solved. Maybe it's since improved, but things like this have always been a problem with Linux distros whenever I've tried them; I found the same when trying to use virtualization stuff and Linux, even if there are supposedly many 'current' versions of 'Linux' the virtualization integration components only work with certain ones. For what should be a 'single' platform it's far too fragmented for it's own good, Windows on the other hand, isn't (unless you count the server versions, but they're really just the same anyway) This makes Windows a better target platform and is a far more important fact than any of the PR bull Microsoft spew out, and probably one of the reasons many (commercial) developers really don't bother with linux.
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I haven't read most of the posts here and I don't have much to add to the debate, but I agree with points on each side. The only thing I would add to it is that for the past few years it seems whenever I look at a new MAME release for what games have been added it's generally some game where you remove squares to expose a naked little girl (I take it these are the mahjong games I see referenced). Seems tacky to me and a strange direction for MAME to go. Documentation? :dunno
Seemed like a strange direction for the industry to go, but, it sold.
As I said, it's not up to MAME to discriminate against certain genres of game because they're a steaming pile of poo.
There are examples of more interesting things happening in MAME tho.
Let's just say that R.Belmont, who maintains SDLMame and developers on Linux was telling people explicitly NOT to use Ubuntu for MAME, because it caused more problems than it solved. Maybe it's since improved, but things like this have always been a problem with Linux distros whenever I've tried them; I found the same when trying to use virtualization stuff and Linux, even if there are supposedly many 'current' versions of 'Linux' the virtualization integration components only work with certain ones. For what should be a 'single' platform it's far too fragmented for it's own good, Windows on the other hand, isn't (unless you count the server versions, but they're really just the same anyway) This makes Windows a better target platform and is a far more important fact than any of the PR bull Microsoft spew out, and probably one of the reasons many (commercial) developers really don't bother with linux.
A cool side effect of Mame developers using a great compiler like GCC (and one without all the meaningless warnings it can spit out for different versions/library combinations), is that it'll most likely always work with Linux no matter if the OSD for SDL is there or not (at least the core, the OSD could always be added on as a separate thing by some Linux person Like me if this R.Belmont guy vanished from the Earth, which I really hope doesn't happen because it's great he's doing that work right now).
I agree, I don't like Ubuntu and most Linux distributions are either too hard for casual users to setup (like Gentoo) yet really do work correctly once setup (yet you have to know how to basically do the setup by hand of partition/format/configure). Really I find the best thing to do in Linux is use it for dedicated purposes, don't use the main Windows style interface (GTK/QT/Gnome), and then you have nothing most users want but can really run a mean version of something like Mame off of FVWM or just X and an xterm. You might even have a frontend if you want to torture yourself with the pain of setting up Wahcade, which unfortunately has some nice bugs in the way and other obstacles unless you know a few advanced things to fix them. It can be great, but I admit I definitely have to do plenty of hacking at my systems I setup for myself and know exactly what I'm doing to navigate it in an optimal way. Using Ubuntu for a development system definitely is not something I've found possible, the thing can't even cross compile 32 bit binaries on a 64 bit system for some odd reason. The reason it's bad for Mame, at least currently, is because Ubuntu is trying to utilize all the newest DRM/KMS Graphics stuff with OpenGL before they were ready even for somewhat decent usage (in December 2010 they got somewhat usable at least in the ATI/Intel/Nvidia side), and then there's still more of a small tight rope of what works well right now and they seem not to have been able to compile a build of every component required for Mame that utilizes it right on any video card. I actually am surprised Ubuntu decided to dive into KMS already for working with video cards, when not even Gentoo has done that and is looking more stable which really I think it should be opposite of that.
So yes, Linux can be a mess but distributions are kind of like applications themselves, since it's just a strewn together set of GNU utilities and libraries, with the single Linux kernel placed into it. It's nice to have competition between them, yet that's also what has caused the issues with a straightforward platform anyone can setup on most any system to run an application like Mame on most common hardware setups. Then again sometimes people get lucky and get a setup that does something for what they are needing, and usually then it runs way more stable and efficiently then the Windows setup (or even does something that can't be done in Windows). Unfortunately that usually either requires you to use a specialized build for your goal, that someone spent a lot of time working on building, or you to take it upon yourself and know how to hack things like the kernel and other libraries/apps (which is sad that is required, fortunately sometimes other people do it though for others in Linux and there's usually no OS/blackbox limitations depending on what you know how to do).
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I suppose X2 is going to say the original controller was revolutionary and it just doesn't play correctly without the hit pads tho, and that Capcom be damned for forcing everybody just use buttons on all their later fighting games so that weak people could play them.
Even Capcom realized the novelty controller was a gimmick ;-)
The goal of PRESERVATION, is to Accurately represent the thing you are PRESERVING. Gimmick or Not.
Weather you do not appreciate their direction / choices is Meaningless to the Truth of REAL Preservation.
Being that you cant understand this shows you shouldnt be part of any Preservation efforts.
Its Obvious that in This instance, the game may in fact play Better without the specialty controller. More than likely it was a decision made from thinking people wouldnt be able to adapt to use 6 buttons.. where most games used only 2 or 3.
Still, its not up to YOU, how it should operate. Its documenting how it Did operate, even if it was later changed. (which is an extreme rarity)
In most cases, a specialty controller is Necessary to control the game to its fullest potentials. 720 is one such controller... where as no other controller can match its performance. That can easily be proven... and theres already plenty of evidence from various comments on sites from people who are very good at the game.
Arkanoid? Plays Horribly with anything but a spinner / paddle. The only way to make it even close to playable... is to tweak the controls so that it takes less steps to move the player (cheating).. and in doing so, reduces the resolution of control... and thus the difficulty becomes 10x easier. In the Arcades... where people playing for too long was a huge loss of profits.. that would never have been acceptable. Also, games made too easy, and people would bore of them and not play them ever again.
Sinistar is also a great example. Its enhanced spring system provides superior control that no current thumb stick can provide. Even a full sized analog stick is inferior for the job.
For someone supposedly so intelligent, I find it quite hilarious that you dont know why that is, as well as how you think you can 2nd guess the knowledge and skills of a mechanical engineer + MONTHS of testing & abuses. Quite simply put, you are well out of your depth, and have a chip on your shoulders that is easily knocked off.
Hard Drivin is pretty much ALL about the controls. The force feedback motor is the size of a dryer motor, coupled with a 6 turn wheel... is unmatched by any console controller. The game being all about how well you feel the road. No xbox controller will match it. And anyone
Marble Madness? Theres no better way to control the game than with a trackball... which provided superior vector and speed input... as well as the proper FEEL of rolling a ball. Not to mention, the added difficulty and physical control & stamina needed to beat the game.
SuperSprint? Id love to see you try to beat someone with a real 360 degree wheel, with your xbox controller or even a mouse.
Programmers like you dont understand the First thing about real games and real Genius. Programmers of the past were able to program systems that had almost zero power and memory.. to their fullest potentials, and create games that today still are more fun and popular than your current garbage.
Past Arcade devs quickly realized that a game made too easy, would represent a huge loss... cause gamers quickly defeated games on location. Which is why they would spend months tweaking difficulty of levels.
Unique controllers were an extension of this. They allowed games like Sinistar to be more difficult / challenging... yet not sacrifice control, which would tick off the majority of players. It also created interest in playing games - such as Marble Madness's Trackball... or Tempest's Spinner. Imagine... an Original game! Gasp!
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Programmers like you dont understand the First thing about real games and real Genius. Programmers of the past were able to program systems that had almost zero power and memory.. to their fullest potentials, and create games that today still are more fun and popular than your current garbage.
So I joke that you'll say something about the ghastly SF controller, and you come out with even more garbage, and personal insults...
I suppose you're going to go on about how great Hard Drivin' was, and what an accurate simulation it was and .. oh ... you already did .. You know it's just a gross approximation of a simulation + marketing hype right? Maybe it was used for other 'technologies' back then but it's a far cry from the most basic of physics simulations you find today. Get over it.
Seriously, WHY are you still here?
If the developers can't use it and test it on a normal PC then it's not preserved to the developers. Do I need to write this on a big hammer and hit you on the head with it every time you pop your head up out the ground again?
If the programmers of old you claim are so great, are so great.. where is their emulator which does everything far better than MAME? If they're so passionate about their creations, why aren't they doing something about it? Seems to be this generation actually making an effort. If we left it to your 'heroes' everything would have rotted away already.
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The heroes of old you refer to helped mame to be what it is today.
The current team seem to be maintainers and tinkerers than the hardcore coders of late.
I am not including the usual suspects of the team.
I feel nothing but embarassment for your comment towards those coders you tend to ignore.
If you're talking about the arcade devs then the topic was preservation, I'm not saying they didn't contribute towards making the games. I said they're not contributing towards preserving them. They're not.
If you honestly think that MAME isn't 'hardcore' then you're wrong. Having talked to people, in person, who also programmed during that era they are impressed by the sheer scale and complexity of modern systems.
Even if you talk to the old people who worked on MAME they're impressed by the scale of things, and attention to detail. It's done things they never imagined possible, it's done things even I never imagined possible. Each generation has to pay more and more attention to details, get things right, understand things in even more detail to remove hacks. There is some absolutely amazing stuff in MAME, that's been figured out! Every now and again we'll manage to remove some little kludge or hack that the old devs put in and get a 'wow, so that's how it worked' comment, the understanding of arcade hardware has come a long way since then, hence many drivers seeing near complete rewrites. Each generation is doing things the previous one deemed 'impossible'.
The hardcore coders of old were mostly the demoscene coders on the likes of the Amiga, not the arcade coders; if anything the arcade coders had it easy because much more money was being pumped into arcades and technology, it was always ahead of the consoles and computers at the time which meant they COULD be a lot more lax with the coding. There are VERY few arcade games that come close to pushing what the hardware they run on can do, most are actually incredibly lazy uses of the technology because cost wasn't much of an issue. Likewise most of the technology wasn't even around for long enough for them to start pushing it, or coding to it's strengths.
The people writing Speccy code, Amiga code, SNES, Megadrive code, PSX code etc, had far heavier constraints put on them, they couldn't just ask for better hardware, they had to work with what they had. That's why you find games pushing the boundaries of the hardware, exploiting every little trick in the book, and using some REALLY hardcore techniques. You disassemble some of those games, or look at how they made use of the hardware from a technical point of view, and have to admire it. I can't say I've honestly seen the same in any single arcade title. This is also reflected in my earlier statement that the MESS side of things provides a better component stress test than MAME. Arcade -> Console ports might have been for the most part garbage, but there were generations between the systems at the time.
Unfortunately this type of 'hardcore' programmer isn't much good for MAME coding*, these guys pushed hardware, hacked things up to give an illusion under very specific conditions etc. etc. which aren't actually useful skills for creating an emulator. You don't want 'hardcore' code of that kind in an emulator, you want reliable, readable code! MAME is a different kind of 'hardcore' in that it demands correct code, and correct understanding of everything. We did allow this kind of code in areas of MAME a long time ago, and it set the project back years, look up 'AchoCode'. It's a prime example of why the fast type of 'hardcore' code should be kept as far away from MAME as humanly possible, no error checking on anything, prone to crashing, hardcoded for specific cases, unmaintainable and the cause of many bug reports where his code simply fell apart when new use cases showed up. (*ones who will write test code on real hardware are useful for figuring things out tho when the actual game code we have doesn't supply enough evidence)
Old projects were smaller, original ideas could sell, the industry was more open, and there was little risk in trying things, the scope of the approximations you needed, was more defined, expectations were entirely different. These things more than made up for the constraints imposed by the hardware. I've programmed for the 8-bits, I've programmed for modern systems. Again the same comparisons can be made with MAME, the old versions of MAME you didn't have to care so much about accuracy, it's been said before, 95% of the effort is making the last 5% of the software work for any emulation platform / fixing the emulation bugs for any given platform. You could write cores and video emulations that 'mostly worked' You could write quick dirty multi-pass sprite code that caused additional glitches in the games, and nobody noticed. The old versions in almost all cases do not represent good QUALITY emulation, because understanding has moved on since then. They were good for the time, even impressive, because there was nothing better, and that was the limit of the understanding at the time.
Let's take a real example I've used before.
http://mamedev.org/source/src/mame/video/twincobr.c.html (http://mamedev.org/source/src/mame/video/twincobr.c.html)
This is a 'classic' MAME video implementation of old.
The function starting at line 379
379 static void wardner_sprite_priority_hack(running_machine *machine)
nice little hack that. Why is it there? because at the time nobody understood that sprite->sprite priority should not be affected by sprite->tile priority. Implementing it PROPERLY, without this hack makes the driver 2x slower because you have to have a priority buffer for every pixel of the screen, rather than the quick and dirty approach being used. It's also significantly harder to code properly, than simply hacking it as has been done here. The final code is much more elegant however, and will work for ALL cases on this hardware, not just the specific one hacked here.
There are still many drivers which take such an approach, they don't always have hacks to hide the glitches, some glitches people have never reported / noticed, however, it's now up to the current team to actually PROPERLY understand these things and replace them with correct code. Obviously these hacks aren't desirable, but that was the limit of the understanding back then, from a developer perspective it was 'huh, this doesn't make sense, WTF is going on??' Cleaning these things up is hard work, it has no 'rewards' apart from much cleaned code, people only moan that things got slower. Are they worth cleaning up? Of course.
You're quick to insult Derrek here. Do you think holding a microphone up to an arcade cab and playing a few sounds in test mode then playing back the wavs is more of a hardcore task than trying to figure out how the PCB generated them from the circuits, and writing the code to accurately reproduce that? It's a perfect example of how expectations have changed, evolved, and how actually getting things from a crude approximation to perfect is so much more work than the initial coding. He's doing things the original development team could only DREAM of being able to do, part of that is because the technology is available to do it now (it simply wasn't feasible on a P2/P3) and part of it is because he simply has skills the original team didn't have to actually figure these things out and code them.
If you want to twist my words into some kind of insult that's your problem. Time change, you are stuck in the past, and you seem to fail to recognize the amount of hard work being done today, simply because the real hard work of doing things properly has less 'rewards'. At the same time people here are also very quick to bash the devs of old, saying they lacked foresight. Maybe you should make up your mind, or just realise that it's a project which is always evolving and building on what came before it.
As for my statement that the names don't matter much? I don't think they do, people working on MAME should be working on it because they think it's an important cause, the good feeling comes from knowing you've achieved something worthwhile. I do a ton of work for every release behind the scenes, and don't ask to be credited for most of it. If I have something I think other people will find interesting, or I find curious, I post it on my site for discussion, not for fame.
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The Mamedevs of today are just standing on the shoulders of giants.
...and it's comments like this, that set you aside from those who sincerely appreciate their efforts.
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The Mamedevs of today are just standing on the shoulders of giants.
...and it's comments like this, that set you aside from those who sincerely appreciate their efforts.
Read and learn. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants) There are two sides to every coin.
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I don't understand. Why trivialize any of the work the MAME team has done? Past or present? This is a labor of love by the community of developers who make it so.
The underlying argument in this whole discussion is simple:
From an end-user perspective - playable performance on old/cheap hardware. (Hey, pirates are always cheap right?)
From a developer perspective - maintainable, accurate, and progressive code.
I, for one, admire and respect the development team's direction. Looking ahead, it lays the foundation to achieve the goal of true 100% accurate emulation someday. Whereas the end-user's perspective has a workaround now (use an old version) and will ultimately work itself out over time through Moore's law.
I only read the last two pages of the thread but that was enough for me. Thanks for the hard work old and new on MAME :)
My two cents.
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The Mamedevs of today are just standing on the shoulders of giants.
...and it's comments like this, that set you aside from those who sincerely appreciate their efforts.
and continues to show his complete ignorance to what actually goes on.
as for editing my posts, as I said, they all get edited while they're being written, to clarify points, so that I can work on other things at the same time.
If Pacman was to be dumped for the first time today, and you threw it at the current dev team it would be emulated within about an hour because the MAME architecture has developed to the point over the last few years where that's possible. That's why MAME is a beautiful thing to work with.
All this seems to come back to is him being stuck up on the idea that only a handful of games matter, and they were 'emulated' ages ago, and that everything since then has somehow slowly been destroying the emulation of them because they no longer run well on his anicent box. Therefore in his world, only the devs who did the original emulation actually matter, and the concept that taking something from 95% correct to 100% correct is the bulk of work is some fallacy the current devs make up to sound good while continuing to push out what he sees as shoddy, slow, broken code.
What the original devs did was good for the time they did it, and hardware + resources that were available at the time. What the current devs are doing is good for the time, and the hardware + resources available now. Over that time MAME has come to be a collection of a huge amount of knowledge which is ever evolving and ever improving. New knowledge and findings are regularly applied back to older emulations, improving them. There are very few drivers that haven't changed from when they were written, and very little of the code left from the older versions.
This isn't insulting towards the older devs, because they see this, recognize this, and appreciate the new findings, and understanding of the hardware. It's the same for drivers I've written, there are things I've done which I've not been 100% convinced by, then somebody else has come along, figured out how it actually works, and implemented it fully. I love it when that happens, because it's always good to see what the correct solution was when you couldn't figure something out. I look forward to an accurate emulation of the shadowing hardware in Jaleco Megasystem32 for that very reason, it's got me completely stumped. Devs are NEVER happy about leaving hacks in their code, or incomplete emulation, at least not in a project like MAME.
It's easy to fire up a lot of the older emulations and see flaws that were never fixed. I randomly fired up Taito's 'Hit The Ice' the other day, only to see it leaving trails all over the screens after attract mode. It hasn't seen any attention in a good few years, maybe it's time that driver got some, maybe with some study of the hardware to figure the rest out. No doubt the flaw is still preying on somebody's mind.
Going back to page 1, my concern is there there is no 'next generation' of devs, that was my point. The imperfections we leave in the emulation, somebody else is going to have to figure out while the PCBs still work, not controls, which can be changed at any point, not speed, which hardly matters, but genuine imperfections in the emulation, things which aren't emulated properly and are causing glitches which do not occur on original hardware, or are leaving the games completely broken. We are currently cleaning up after the previous generation of devs, fixing things they left broken/hacked because they didn't understand them, the next generation of devs should be fixing things we've left broken/hacked, because we didn't understand them and so on and that's without mentioning the stuff that actually needs to be written from scratch because it wasn't available to work on at the time. I blame Sony, Sega, Nintendo, and, to a lesser degree, Microsoft + all the big name publishers for creating such a locked down industry.
It's a concern, all these people saying 'it's good enough', 'it just needs to be made faster', 'somebody needs to fork an old version and start again' etc. are detracting from the real issues, and making it sound like there really are no remaining interesting challenges. Hacking up and optimizing something somebody else has already done isn't going to help in the long run. Doing nothing, because you think everything that matters has already been done isn't either. Forking an old version will almost certainly just mean you waste your time getting to exactly where we are now because it's the inevitable path! At the end of the day nobody is going to care if MAME requires a P3, P4, or Core2 to run well when all those systems are sat in museums. They will care if there are still a bunch of broken emulations, or the emulation code no longer runs at all because it was too tied to legacy systems and hardware.
Derrek is right, there is no hope here. Somebody so far distanced from the truth is just a lost cause.
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I don't understand. Why trivialize any of the work the MAME team has done? Past or present? This is a labor of love by the community of developers who make it so.
THIS.
Even *I* think this is ridiculous ... and it takes a lot to get me to that point.
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as for editing my posts, as I said, they all get edited while they're being written, to clarify points, so that I can work on other things at the same time.
I've been watching and it ain't like Haze is pulling a Genesim and completely altering his posts -- he has added some details and points after the fact, but not done anything out of line.
Derrek is right, there is no hope here. Somebody so far distanced from the truth is just a lost cause.
Nothing could be further from the truth (this is the place where I think there is the most hope -- there is a reasonable balance of fanboys, real collectors and lunatics; the moderation is appropriate and 99% of people share the same final goal), but with the loudmouths, it may hard to see that.
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-- there is a reasonable balance of fanboys, real collectors and lunatics;
Don't forget wise-asses.
(points to self)
(you and Randy were correct that my pneumatic buttons post was just for humour)
PS: There are THREE sides to a coin!
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Read and learn. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants) There are two sides to every coin.
If you were attempting a compliment, the "just" in your sentence belies a different meaning altogether. If this was your intention, then yes, I believe most developers would agree that they would examine the past works of others, to attempt to build on their own success. It's a smart way. Who wouldn't do that? Use what works, improve on it in your own way, and inject your own independent thought and ideas wherever you can.
Unfortunately, without looking past the "just", it reads as a sleight.
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Derrek is right, there is no hope here. Somebody so far distanced from the truth is just a lost cause.
Nothing could be further from the truth (this is the place where I think there is the most hope -- there is a reasonable balance of fanboys, real collectors and lunatics; the moderation is appropriate and 99% of people share the same final goal), but with the loudmouths, it may hard to see that.
Well 'here' is with reference to hoping said loudmouths actually eventually understand some of this.
I recognize that a lot of people do understand what is being said.
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Derrek is right, there is no hope here. Somebody so far distanced from the truth is just a lost cause.
Nothing could be further from the truth (this is the place where I think there is the most hope -- there is a reasonable balance of fanboys, real collectors and lunatics; the moderation is appropriate and 99% of people share the same final goal), but with the loudmouths, it may hard to see that.
I can understand Haze's feelings here, but I think he meant just for this one dude.
It's a lot like being a community representative/manager for a game company. You can have tons and tons of silent fans that love your product that you're also passionate about, but there's that couple of people who are really loud and annoying and no matter how much you try to explain and reason with them they're only there to troll their own opinion recursively. The danger though is that your own views become bitter and angry towards the community in general since... for the most part it's a faceless mass and you can't immediately distinguish people who admire the work from the trolls. Not like they can distinguish and target you as being the spokesperson. It's easy to get crushed by the community. Being that Haze has been doing this so long though, I'm confident he's aware of the psychological traps of handling the community.
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May very well be true.
My hope is that Haze and Derrick won't give up on posting here because i really do believe it is a great place to have discussions like this, even when they degenerate.
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Most of this thread reminds me of the Monty Python skit where you pay for a good argument and all you get is simple contradiction of everything you say.
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I recognize that a lot of people do understand what is being said.
Or try.....
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Read and learn. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants) There are two sides to every coin.
If you were attempting a compliment, the "just" in your sentence belies a different meaning altogether. If this was your intention, then yes, I believe most developers would agree that they would examine the past works of others, to attempt to build on their own success. It's a smart way. Who wouldn't do that? Use what works, improve on it in your own way, and inject your own independent thought and ideas wherever you can.
Unfortunately, without looking past the "just", it reads as a sleight.
I (surprisingly) read enough litarature to see it as ark paying a compliment. "Standing on the sholders of Giants" is not a phrase really used in a negative light. I think he said "just" to mean "simply" instead of "only". ;)
I think his post editing comment was in a polite tone as well. A habit of editing is just generally frowned upon because you will have people read and comment on your original post and it might not be so relevent after an edit goes through. If I need to, I always try to say why I needed to edit at the end of the post so nobody feels like I am changing things around after the fact. I reread every longer post I make just in case as well. :)
I think things are a little too jumpy here so there is too much reading into every little comment. :lol
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.
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Most of this thread reminds me of the Monty Python skit where you pay for a good argument and all you get is simple contradiction of everything you say.
No you don't. :laugh2:
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The main problem is it's a community that lacks direction, and lacks vision. If they could focus their efforts instead of forking all over the place and going in different directions they might get somewhere, but it's not my place to go and troll their forums over it, because I have nothing to contribute, nor any real desire to. Your continued mentioning of forking of MAME and working from older versions seems to indicate that you believe such methodologies to be the way forward, when really they just lead to userbase confusion, developer confusion, a lack of management, a lack of overall direction and endless dependency conflicts between so called modern versions and distributions. I encourage you to try it if you really want, but I can't help but think you'll quickly find yourself getting nowhere.
Well at least we can agree on one thing. Forking is generally a bad idea and should be considered a last resort. But it's ironic that you of all people should be saying that. Right throughout this thread you and Derrick have repeatedly said that "if you don't like what we're doing with MAME then create your own fork" as a stock response to any criticism. The trouble is that sooner or later someone is going to call your bluff and do precisely that.
It's not that anyone really wants to fork the project. It is, after all, a lot of work, and dilutes the resources available. But your unwillingness to compromise means that we'll eventually get to the point where some members of the community that actually want to play the games feel they have no choice.
If somebody forks an old version they will (quickly) find themselves taking the same paths as the official dev team, and find their version ends up just as slow as the official one as they actually reinvent the wheel, and discover, and therefore have to support new features in order to progress.
Either that, or they end up with an unmaintainable mess.
........
If somebody _wants_ to try what you're suggesting they're more than welcome, however, I absolutely guarantee you that they will fail, and most developers or potential developers will see that before they even start, which is why it's never been done with any great success. The ones who HAVE tried have quickly ended up seeing the vast amount of progress made in new versions, and the simple impossibility of porting some newer code over to old systems where a great deal of the functionality that is required, or makes MAME easy to program for simply doesn't exist, and can't be backported. The guys doing 'uberMAME' have tried this, and end up spending half their time trying to fix things which have already been fixed, and pestering the devs with questions which simply have no answers because they're using such an old version.
Except that's not the way it would work. A far more likely scenario is that a team of developers would pick an old version of MAME released before all the good stuff started getting ripped out, but where the performance and quality of emulation was still deemed to be "good enough". They base their fork on that version and don't even bother trying to keep up with the ever changing codebase of the main build. Instead they just concentrate on those aspects of the program that enhance the user experience. Effectively any improvements to MAME since their chosen version would be ignored, and the accuracy of emulation and the number of games available would be frozen. It's far from ideal but many people would consider that to be a price worth paying.
On a personal note, if I was creating a fork, I would also make sure I chose a version of MAME created before the switch from C to C++, partly because I'm much more familiar with C, but mainly because C++ irritates the hell out of me for a variety of reasons. I've tried really hard to like C++ but I just don't.
I was initially opposed to a fork. But I have to say I'm beginning to warm to the idea. The differences between the two sides here do appear to be irreconcilable, and are just creating bad vibes within the community. So perhaps a fork is the least bad of the options available.
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Question: Why does it have to be a single version for every game? If you are trying to play a game that works better on an older/alternate build, why not just use that build and move along? Gun games are an example of this... I think they are fixed now, but when the RAW input system was added, the drivers for guncon controllers broke. If you wanted to play those games, you just had to fire up an older version and play. ALTERNATELY, you could compile your own copy with the RAW system disabled... Anyone using a front end can simply tell it what emu to use to load what game. It works, move on. :dunno
The MAMEdevs are improving the code for accuracy. That's not the same as improvements for playability (stated many times as a "side-effect"). Users want to use the system to play games from bygone times the way they remember them (which includes at playable speeds). Again, speed is not an important part of emulation because it will eventually fall out with improved/faster/cheaper hardware on the end users desk.
If a user wants to improve the performance of a game, they can do one of several things:
1) Buy a better computer
2) Use a different emulator
3) Buy the PCB and stick it in an actual cabinet so you are playing the original game!
If you love the game so much that you are willing to complain to the MAMEdevs about fixing it, why not just buy the thing and move on? :cheers:
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The main problem is it's a community that lacks direction, and lacks vision. If they could focus their efforts instead of forking all over the place and going in different directions they might get somewhere, but it's not my place to go and troll their forums over it, because I have nothing to contribute, nor any real desire to. Your continued mentioning of forking of MAME and working from older versions seems to indicate that you believe such methodologies to be the way forward, when really they just lead to userbase confusion, developer confusion, a lack of management, a lack of overall direction and endless dependency conflicts between so called modern versions and distributions. I encourage you to try it if you really want, but I can't help but think you'll quickly find yourself getting nowhere.
Well at least we can agree on one thing. Forking is generally a bad idea and should be considered a last resort. But it's ironic that you of all people should be saying that. Right throughout this thread you and Derrick have repeatedly said that "if you don't like what we're doing with MAME then create your own fork" as a stock response to any criticism. The trouble is that sooner or later someone is going to call your bluff and do precisely that.
It's not that anyone really wants to fork the project. It is, after all, a lot of work, and dilutes the resources available. But your unwillingness to compromise means that we'll eventually get to the point where some members of the community that actually want to play the games feel they have no choice.
I think for such a specialist application it actually makes sense. The divide is clear, the different target groups are clear. It's not like there are going to be 2 separate MAME projects with people duplicating work if it gets forked in that sense. Linux on the other hand seems to have tons of forks, and distros competing for the same already limited user-space with nothing but incompatibilities to choose between them.
If somebody forks an old version they will (quickly) find themselves taking the same paths as the official dev team, and find their version ends up just as slow as the official one as they actually reinvent the wheel, and discover, and therefore have to support new features in order to progress.
Either that, or they end up with an unmaintainable mess.
........
If somebody _wants_ to try what you're suggesting they're more than welcome, however, I absolutely guarantee you that they will fail, and most developers or potential developers will see that before they even start, which is why it's never been done with any great success. The ones who HAVE tried have quickly ended up seeing the vast amount of progress made in new versions, and the simple impossibility of porting some newer code over to old systems where a great deal of the functionality that is required, or makes MAME easy to program for simply doesn't exist, and can't be backported. The guys doing 'uberMAME' have tried this, and end up spending half their time trying to fix things which have already been fixed, and pestering the devs with questions which simply have no answers because they're using such an old version.
Except that's not the way it would work. A far more likely scenario is that a team of developers would pick an old version of MAME released before all the good stuff started getting ripped out, but where the performance and quality of emulation was still deemed to be "good enough". They base their fork on that version and don't even bother trying to keep up with the ever changing codebase of the main build. Instead they just concentrate on those aspects of the program that enhance the user experience. Effectively any improvements to MAME since their chosen version would be ignored, and the accuracy of emulation and the number of games available would be frozen. It's far from ideal but many people would consider that to be a price worth paying.
On a personal note, if I was creating a fork, I would also make sure I chose a version of MAME created before the switch from C to C++, partly because I'm much more familiar with C, but mainly because C++ irritates the hell out of me for a variety of reasons. I've tried really hard to like C++ but I just don't.
I was initially opposed to a fork. But I have to say I'm beginning to warm to the idea. The differences between the two sides here do appear to be irreconcilable, and are just creating bad vibes within the community. So perhaps a fork is the least bad of the options available.
If people fork an older build for speed purposes, yet somehow expect to develop it further, that is pointless. You end up being boxed in by your own goals, and can't actually improve it without sacrificing the reason you forked it in the first place. People would come to you with the same bug reports, and requests we were getting years ago, and you'd be unable to fix them because the fixes involve great sacrifice in speed. You'd very quickly give up and realise that MameDev had the right idea all alone, hence the demise of most other arcade emulators which were made for this purpose.
Somebody already did this split, of an older C build, because they hated C++... Now they keep bugging us about how to port new C++ drivers to the old codebase, it isn't productive, and they're already asking me how to fix bugs I fixed years ago, they're not liking my answers and they're finding debugging the problems themselves for such builds much harder, because it's not only the emulation that's improved, and the architecture that's improved, but also the built in debugging tools. Again it's just further proof really that the direction taken by MAME is the natural one for progression of the project, standing in the way of it and expecting the best of both worlds doesn't work.
I've also got people sending me the sources to the unathorized X-Box builds of MAME, asking me to put the latest changes / emulated titles / improvements in it. There are a few problems with this
a) I don't own an X-Box
b) We don't approve of that build
c) There's no freaking way the X-Box is going to run half of them because to support what they want I'd have to remove the hacks that actually make it go fast, and that's if it had enough memory in the first place.
They've reached a dead-end within their own constraints, in this case ones applied by the hardware. Working within artificial restraints when you're on a PC makes even less sense!
It's the same reason all the MAME4ALL Handheld ports based off 0.36 have the same problems (poor sound, noticable glitches in certain games) They're constrained by the version they used, and their target hardware. They can't move forward, so people using it will always end up making the same complaints, because the things they complain about can't be fixed without moving to a more modern, slower code-base. I've heard enough people complain that MAME sucks because of these problems with it running on their GP2X / whatever, when in reality the problems they're complaining about have been fixed years ago, just the GP2X is incapable of taking advantage of them because they up the system requirements. By forking off .3x they've cornered themselves into a position where it's really hard to add new features even if the target hardware does improve in spec.
You can't port an old version and have a happy userbase unless those users are completely blind to some of the glaring imperfections in those older versions, which can't easily be fixed.
MAME - the main development tree is avoiding all these problems.
I'm not a huge fan of C++, but the object oriented approach does make sense for some componenets. Old MAME was very much pesudo-C++ anyway, multiple instances of different components slotted together etc. Actually using C++ takes away a lot of the pain of trying to have your own pseudo-OO system, and thus stops people just copying and pasting huge chunks of code to create 2nd copies of VDPs and such. MAME isn't forcing C++ down your throat, but it is using it where applicable to avoid a lot of ugly code.
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I think what happened with Powermame is a good example of a derivative project taking off and users swamping the developer with requests/demands....
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Im still waiting for someone to suggest a gentoo style mame where you strip out all the code for systems you aren't playing "to cut down on the bloat" or some other magic.
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If I were interested in other approaches, I think I would ask what they might be. If I had ideas for other approaches, I think I would present them in the format, 'I'm wondering this...what do you think?
Given everything, and my senses of the people involved, I don't think current MAME performs unreasonably. However, if someone out there can do something more remarkable, I'm all eyes.
Prevents me from losing what I write if something crashes.
In this day, why would something crash?
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On a personal note, if I was creating a fork, I would also make sure I chose a version of MAME created before the switch from C to C++, partly because I'm much more familiar with C, but mainly because C++ irritates the hell out of me for a variety of reasons. I've tried really hard to like C++ but I just don't.
Plus eleventy, IMO.
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Apparently I reposted some deleted post.. That's what my ban message says, I honestly have no clue.
The reason you were banned is directly connected to present situation you're complaining about, it's quite hilarious really, let me give you a clue:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1)
--- "You have been told" ---
kevtris:
- This entitlement attitude is precisely why I have issues with Mame development in general. The LAST thing you want to do is totally piss off the guys like me that provide most of your hard-won reverse engineering work.
- I know that not everyone in the team is like this, but when the most vocal members of it act in this highly antisocial fashion, it reflects poorly on the entire team, and drives persons with valuable resources away from wanting to join the project... I hesitate to wonder what other resourceful folks you drove away with your entitlement attitude and ranting.
AaronGiles:
- I can't take back what Haze says, but I can certainly say that I and most of the other devs don't share his pessimistic black & white view of the world.
Phil Bennett:
- Good grief RB, Haze. I'd vote to ban you two from representing MAME personally. Two past contributors alienated for the sake of YOUR principles.
AaronGiles (to Phil Bennett):
- You and me both.
AaronGiles:
- You are being very narrow-minded here and frankly your arrogance and your attitude is not welcome. It's fine to have your opinions and even to be a firm believer in them, but stand by them as *your* opinions. Don't come here spouting off with threats about kicking people out of the development team because they don't do everything according to your personal wishes. Certainly in this matter, you don't represent the team.
- But instead of lashing out at it and ensuring 100% that there will never be any sort of collaboration, you would do well to accept that there are different points of view, take a deep breath, and make an effort to figure out ways that we might work together. If you don't, then you are only ever going to get help from people who think like you, and you are going to continually piss off everyone else. And frankly, there are quite a lot of people in the "everyone else" category who can help us out. If you shut them out, then you have only yourself to blame for "being forced to do everything from scratch again".
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Apparently I reposted some deleted post.. That's what my ban message says, I honestly have no clue.
The reason you were banned is directly connected to present situation you're complaining about, it's quite hilarious really, let me give you a clue:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1)
That's a disagreement between myself and Aaron, and I stand entirely behind what I said there. It's got nothing to do with being removed from MameWorld. Aaron is FAR too soft with people at times. I've stated before, I'm not in this to be popular, I'm in this to get stuff done. In the end, stuff got done, you have speech in Scorpion*. The guy was being a complete penis about things, and I called him out as such, acting like gods gift because you made some samples, while refusing to actually give the correct info to improve the project, and trying to turn people on the developers for not supporting the samples isn't really a great thing to do. Pressing issues is sometimes necessary.
This might be one reason Aaron doesn't want me as part of the 'official' team, but I still seem to be organizing half the work that gets done. Bit silly really. However, in this thread, you have people backing up what I've said by saying that Aaron has said the same. Derrek is also saying the same. You have your references, you're choosing to ignore them and attempt to discredit me.
The views expressed on MameWorld there also represented all the other developers I was working with at the time, there were MANY discussions behind the scenes about this. In this instance Aaron stuck his foot in without knowing 99% of the previous conversations or details; compared to the other developers Aaron isn't much involved in conversations, and usually doesn't know what's going on. The 'I know this and you don't, nah nah nah' attitude was creating a significant degree of disharmony, you can gauge that from some of the other posts in that thread, which weren't made by me.
*In the end, after more broken promises about providing info to people who were being 'nicer' the algorithm was reverse engineered from the samples, pretty much as a f-you towards the guys hoarding the info, even if it wasn't stated in public as such. That tends to be what the dev team do if people start being difficult for personal gain, the project is about freedom of information, not letting people make money selling bootleg replacement parts.
I just prefer to be more direct about things, rather than sucking up to people in the futile hope it might actually get me anywhere.
This has very little to do with the present situation, technical information is readily available, and the majority of the decline has been seen since I wasn't involved directly, since I was banned from posting there, and thus unable to provide actual useful information, since I stopped chasing people up over everything, since I stopped training up new devs on IRC, with a rather hard line to ensure they did things correctly. Being too nice gets you nowhere. There is plenty to work on, your comparison is unfounded because the guy you're talking about would have just held on forever, making excuses every time he was asked anyway, thus resulting in no progress at all hence the whole situation coming about in the first place.
The actual MameWorld ban, as I said, it still makes no sense. Don't you think that on any rational site, if they had decent reasons for the ban, they'd still allow actual MAME progress to be posted?. They've managed to cut off some of the most significant progress in MAME from their news forum simply because they don't allow me to be mentioned, or links posted to my site (and should you attempt to, you'll be banned). As of late I've been kind to them by providing YouTube videos so posters can link to progress directly (I don't believe censoring progress is good for MAME _at all_, it leads to the 'nothing good ever happens' attitude shown here) However, the attitude of the MW admin stinks of a personal grudge rather than there being any logical reason for a ban, half the people there don't even agree with it. One party here is trying to do what's good for MAME, the other isn't.
As I've stated before. If you're holding stuff back from MAME / damaging MAME because you have something personal against _me_, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons anyway because the project isn't about people, it's about progress and preservation. If you're contributing to MAME it should be because you believe it's a worthwhile cause, and an important historical project which is the only reason I still contribute.
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If I were interested in other approaches, I think I would ask what they might be. If I had ideas for other approaches, I think I would present them in the format, 'I'm wondering this...what do you think?
Given everything, and my senses of the people involved, I don't think current MAME performs unreasonably. However, if someone out there can do something more remarkable, I'm all eyes.
Prevents me from losing what I write if something crashes.
In this day, why would something crash?
Firefox isn't perfect, nor is any other browser, even if things like Flash are sandboxed I've still seen the whole browser go down from time to time. It's also very easy to close the browser, forgetting you had a tab open where you were writing something.
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If I were interested in other approaches, I think I would ask what they might be. If I had ideas for other approaches, I think I would present them in the format, 'I'm wondering this...what do you think?
Given everything, and my senses of the people involved, I don't think current MAME performs unreasonably. However, if someone out there can do something more remarkable, I'm all eyes.
Prevents me from losing what I write if something crashes.
In this day, why would something crash?
Firefox isn't perfect, nor is any other browser, even if things like Flash are sandboxed I've still seen the whole browser go down from time to time. It's also very easy to close the browser, forgetting you had a tab open where you were writing something.
Just a simple suggestion...try writing in a word document, then pasting over. It does the periodic saving for you, and you'd be less likely to accidently close it out since it wants you to save before quitting. ;)
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If I were interested in other approaches, I think I would ask what they might be. If I had ideas for other approaches, I think I would present them in the format, 'I'm wondering this...what do you think?
Given everything, and my senses of the people involved, I don't think current MAME performs unreasonably. However, if someone out there can do something more remarkable, I'm all eyes.
Prevents me from losing what I write if something crashes.
In this day, why would something crash?
Firefox isn't perfect, nor is any other browser, even if things like Flash are sandboxed I've still seen the whole browser go down from time to time. It's also very easy to close the browser, forgetting you had a tab open where you were writing something.
Just a simple suggestion...try writing in a word document, then pasting over. It does the periodic saving for you, and you'd be less likely to accidently close it out since it wants you to save before quitting. ;)
Not a bad suggestion, although sometimes habits are difficult to break. I actually used to do this before Firefox had a spellchecker like Word, which almost encourages writing in it.
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That's a disagreement between myself and Aaron, and I stand entirely behind what I said there. It's got nothing to do with being removed from MameWorld. Aaron is FAR too soft with people at times. I've stated before, I'm not in this to be popular, I'm in this to get stuff done. In the end, stuff got done, you have speech in Scorpion*. The guy was being a complete penis about things, and I called him out as such, acting like gods gift because you made some samples, while refusing to actually give the correct info to improve the project, and trying to turn people on the developers for not supporting the samples isn't really a great thing to do. Pressing issues is sometimes necessary.
This might be one reason Aaron doesn't want me as part of the 'official' team, but I still seem to be organizing half the work that gets done. Bit silly really. However, in this thread, you have people backing up what I've said by saying that Aaron has said the same. Derrek is also saying the same. You have your references, you're choosing to ignore them and attempt to discredit me.
Nobody is discrediting you Haze on this board. Your views about the community is really black & white, and the attitude towards X2 shows this. I am not a psychologist, but it looks very much to what I spoke of very early in the thread that you do have a chip on your shoulder. Aaron coding abilities are legendary. Aaron has worked on titles that most of us grew up on at LucasArts, and he is not soft, but a excellent project manager. I am not saying that you are not a good at what you do, but reading that MW thread, reminded me (I am getting APM certified BTW) on how you need to be open to everyone's views, while showing strong leadership.
I still respect you and think of you as one of those great coders that has brought us Mame to our cabs and consoles, but I think you need to lighten up a little and take future criticism towards emulation positive, instead of negative. ;)
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you're just making yourself look like more of a **** with the blacked out text you know.
doesn't make you look clever and helps invalidate everything you've said.
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I am just giving the people on the message board the option to read my view (which seems to be incredibly offensive to several of the people on this thread).
Clever no. Not clever at all, just a better choice than the ignore button. A shame really. Your choice if you want to read it, or not.
Heck I might just post this way from now on, considering how clueless I am...
I do really mean what I posted before, regardless.
Have a nice day.
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you're just making yourself look like more of a **** with the blacked out text you know.
doesn't make you look clever and helps invalidate everything you've said.
Insulting someone and not addressing any of their concerns doesn't make you look clever, either.
I've spent the entire thread addressing peoples concerns. He's just resorted to childish bull and making things up again. Saint must have the tolerance of .. a saint ...
Anyway, I hope people who have read this, aside the 4 trolls, understand why MAME is the way it is, what's important, and where the project goals are.
The minority of people like this is why as a whole the dev team tend to say a big f-you to the community, and most of them don't bother to post or explain at all which is why you just end up thinking they're elitist idiots. I've simply been trying to help explain things because I feel it's important for the project to survive. Most devs act as they do, because they're left with little choice unless they want to put up with this kind of BS, you saw how quickly you drove Derrek off who again, only came to explain things and provide accurate technical information and reasoning, for no benefit to himself.
I'm not being paid to post here, I have nothing personally to gain from it. I simply wanted to help spread the understanding of decisions made by MAME, and help people understand the areas in which we're looking for people to help. It's very easy to see why most devs simply don't bother with public discussion. I wanted to break this cycle, but it seems certain posters here are determined to keep it intact. Next time you try to paint the dev team as some elitist bunch of nerds, just remember, the said posters are half the reason for it appearing that way.
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you're just making yourself look like more of a **** with the blacked out text you know.
doesn't make you look clever and helps invalidate everything you've said.
Insulting someone and not addressing any of their concerns doesn't make you look clever, either.
I've spent the entire thread addressing peoples concerns. He's just resorted to childish bull again. Saint must have the tolerance of .. a saint ...
In my honest opinion, you have been arguing concerns, not addressing them. :dunno
In Ark's blacked out message, I thought he was actually pretty sincere in his advice. He made the same point that I have been making all along, when people come in with criticism, it is beneficial to use this as a positive. Telling them reason X, Y and Z of why it's not gonna happen and will never happen will only turn this into a 13 page, flame n' rant riddled thread. Instead give them ways of how it can happen and see if you can use it to recuit some help making it happen. Yeah, you might not find anyone willing to make it happen, but at least there is no flaming involved.
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I've spent the entire thread addressing peoples concerns. He's just resorted to childish bull again. Saint must have the tolerance of .. a saint ...
Well I've been addressing them in the sense of explaining them. Dealing with the concerns. Maybe it would be fairer to say I've been addressing the community.
The concerns have no real solution within the aims of the project tho, so nothing more can be done, so that is the reply given. I can't offer a solution if there is no solution to offer.
The opposite of addressing them would be to simply ignore everything that is posted, without giving a reason. That just leads to people not understanding why things have been done tho. I prefer people to be educated. At least by explaining why decisions have been made as they have their concerns might become less when they see that the choices made were correct, just not specifically beneficial to them.
Criticism is made, and taken on board, it can't be acted on often because it's based on unsound logic. However, I've stated elsewhere that I think some of the points made are very good ones, MAME does need to start supporting multi-channel sound, it seems silly not to, especially when it's had multi-monitor, multi-mouse and multi-keyboard support for years now. The practicalities of it are more difficult tho. People seem quick to ignore the times I've actually agreed, and would rather focus on continually hammering home a point they've been given countless reasons why is impractical. Likewise just because I agree with something doesn't mean I'm going to leap on my chair and do it.
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I think it's pretty clear that the direction of Mame is set so anyone who wants (certain) changes has to go through another group other than Mamedev. Haze (and Derrek) have stated how to make changes but it's not the answer that some people want to hear. That's not the fault of Mamedev. If you want changes, either put up (code, time or money to have someone do it for you) or shut up.
In reality, the whining from a few sounds exactly like the whining from children when they don't get their way. My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine. We need one here for a couple asshats, I mean d-bags since someone whines about asshats. :P
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I've deleted all my previous posts, except the first one and the recent exchange.
Now perhaps we can be at least civil to each other from now on. :cheers:
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I've spent the entire thread addressing peoples concerns. He's just resorted to childish bull again. Saint must have the tolerance of .. a saint ...
Well I've been addressing them in the sense of explaining them. Dealing with the concerns. Maybe it would be fairer to say I've been addressing the community.
The concerns have no real solution within the aims of the project tho, so nothing more can be done, so that is the reply given.
The opposite of addressing them would be to simply ignore everything that is posted, without giving a reason. That just leads to people not understanding why things have been done tho. I prefer people to be educated. At least by explaining why decisions have been made as they have their concerns might become less when they see that the choices made were correct, just not specifically beneficial to them.
Criticism is made, and taken on board, it can't be acted on often because it's based on unsound logic. However, I've stated elsewhere that I think some of the points made are very good ones, MAME does need to start supporting multi-channel sound, it seems silly not to, especially when it's had multi-monitor, multi-mouse and multi-keyboard support for years now. The practicalities of it are more difficult tho. People seem quick to ignore the times I've actually agreed, and would rather focus on continually hammering home a point they've been given countless reasons why is impractical.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand where you are coming from. It's a hard line to walk, and I do appreaciate a lot of your messages, I personally have learned a lot. Some of the complaints do just need to be resolved with simply explaining the situation.
It other cases though, I would say you are trying to put out a fire with gasoline. Going back to the pages of X2 rants about 720 deticated controls, you did fight it tooth and nail (and I understand why, I had to read those posts too.) It later came out that, yes, its not a bad thing to incorporate into MAME if done correctly. So, I guess my point is a certain degree of openness amid any form of complaint is needed, no matter if the urge to argue comes up. :cheers:
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I've deleted all my previous posts, except the first one and the recent exchange.
Now perhaps we can be at least civil to each other from now on. :cheers:
Let me get this straight ... the guy who called Haze on *editing* his threads decides to go all ahigh ?
:dizzy:
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In reality, the whining from a few sounds exactly like the whining from children when they don't get their way. My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine. We need one here for a couple asshats, I mean d-bags since someone whines about asshats. :P
I agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to make comments, suggestions, requests, and (constructive) criticism of a free project like MAME. What isn't reasonable though is to point-blank refuse to accept the response when it's not what you want to hear, and to instead just keep on bashing the project, whilst making the same points over and over.
It's clear that there are entrenched positions here. Who is 'right' is irrelevant - this discussion isn't going anywhere, it's just repetition.
'You get what you get and you don't get upset'
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...decides to go all ahigh ?
:dizzy:
It never gets old. :applaud:
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Who is 'right' is irrelevant
Uh, Cheffo's right ... saint even said so!
;)
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Jesus Im gone for 3 days and this thread is STILL active!? What the french toast?! :dizzy:
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I've deleted all my previous posts, except the first one and the recent exchange.
Now perhaps we can be at least civil to each other from now on. :cheers:
Let me get this straight ... the guy who called Haze on *editing* his threads decides to go all ahigh ?
:dizzy:
Yes I can look at a problem, act to resolve it, and learn from the experience. Shame on me for trying.
In reality, the whining from a few sounds exactly like the whining from children when they don't get their way. My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine. We need one here for a couple asshats, I mean d-bags since someone whines about asshats. :P
I agree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to make comments, suggestions, requests, and (constructive) criticism of a free project like MAME. What isn't reasonable though is to point-blank refuse to accept the response when it's not what you want to hear, and to instead just keep on bashing the project, whilst making the same points over and over.
It's clear that there are entrenched positions here. Who is 'right' is irrelevant - this discussion isn't going anywhere, it's just repetition.
'You get what you get and you don't get upset'
Yes you can do that and make a request, but when the other party ignores you or gives you a song and dance, there is nothing wrong about pressing the point. Watch any news channel for the same tactic.
It is more difficult to explain an issue to someone who is thinking in absolutes, like those who uses abusive names to make a point, then infers childish behavior. Hmmm.
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Yes I can look at a problem, act to resolve it, and learn from the experience. Shame on me for trying.
Shame on you for behaving like a spoiled (spoiler?) child.
Everybody knows that simply deleting your posts does absolutely nothing to change things (I'm pretty sure that Haze remembers what you wrote that pissed him off), other than to obscure what you actually wrote. Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.
I can't think of a single instance where someone mass deleted posts and it was a GoodThing(tm).
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My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine.
I have a sign in my kitchen that says that my whining is fine ....
(http://happycampers.to/images/IMG00104-20110118-1312.jpg)
:dunno
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Yes I can look at a problem, act to resolve it, and learn from the experience. Shame on me for trying.
Shame on you for behaving like a spoiled (spoiler?) child.
Everybody knows that simply deleting your posts does absolutely nothing to change things (I'm pretty sure that Haze remembers what you wrote that pissed him off), other than to obscure what you actually wrote. Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.
I can't think of a single instance where someone mass deleted posts and it was a GoodThing(tm).
Show me where I am acting like a spoiled child. I deleted my posts as an act of goodwill towards Haze. I really do not think for a moment he cares about anything I post. You seem to think though.
I would like to see the latest version of Mame run on a stock P3 for early 80s games. Please explain to me (like a child if you wish) how that is acting like a spoiled child? I think a comment like "a spoiled child" is rather insulting, and why haven't you indicate this behavior early in the thread? One could only think you are trolling. ::)
I cannot think of anything you have posted in this thread that was positive. While you are in the describing mood, please explain that too.
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Show me where I am acting like a spoiled child.
You mean besides the fact that you're blacking out your posts?
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I would like to see the latest version of Mame run on a stock P3 for early 80s games.
Which goal of the MAME project would that serve?
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I think a comment like "a spoiled child" is rather insulting
Nothing gets by you, ark ... ::)
... except the fact that nobody owes you the current build of MAME running classics on a P3, especially since we already have a version of MAME that runs the classics well enough on a P3.
You are behaving like a spoiled child -- first by bitching about not getting what you want out of MAME (the first few posts were reasonable, what came later was bitching and technically nonsensical), then by bitching about Haze's post editing, then by using the fancy-dancy spoiler tag like some desperate hipster, and finally, by deleting your posts instead of just saying what you claim to have meant.
FWIW, I thought the Whining sign was a positive contribution.
:dunno
EDIT: For the obvious, to everybody except ark, irony.
Show me where I am acting like a spoiled child.
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Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.
Posts like that are why you're my favorite potsmoking muppet on this whole forum
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Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.
Posts like that are why you're my favorite potsmoking muppet on this whole forum
You're just saying that because Fozzy doesn't post here anymore.
:cheers:
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To no one in particular - take the personal arguments private please. Personal shots aside, has this thread run its course or is there more to discuss?
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I can't think of a single instance where someone mass deleted posts and it was a GoodThing(tm).
genesim
Also, I like that ark blacks his posts out, makes him easier to ignore.
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Its a nice start Cheffo, and I like the sign. Reminds me of the guy from the Spaghettiooooos commercial. I have one in my kitchen that says "Wishes doesn't wash dishes" - its very true.
I'm blanking my posts (and every single one from now) as a form of protest. Yes I ask for too much to have my little poor P3 play out the classics that made people look at MAME and say "cool" but this is 2011 and we cannot do that, as it would be easier for you to upgrade. Reminds me of two very similar companies....
I am installing the latest version of Mame in my linux box, to see if there is any differences. And No I have not had ANY issues running SDLMAME like Haze suggests. Maybe those with problems should read a book on Linux first. I have to. ;)
I shouldn't have to blank out posts, but those in here (not you cheffo) are frightened of me scaring off a Mamdev, whom on the looks of it isn't completely welcomed by his peers. He still enjoys contributing though.
He must have this site on RSS, and he cannot wait for the next exciting chapter, until it goes tits up. Foley was like this. Informative, helpful, but always around if mentioned.
I find it funny though just when the thread is of danger of going to PH, you BYOAC trolls show up like a bunch of sharks. Coincidence?
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I find it funny though just when the thread is of danger of going to PH, you BYOAC trolls show up like a bunch of sharks. Coincidence?
Didn't I show up in this thread before you did ?
::)
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I find it funny though just when the thread is of danger of going to PH, you BYOAC trolls show up like a bunch of sharks. Coincidence?
Didn't I show up in this thread before you did ?
::)
You might have me there. ;D
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Ark, quit trying to boss mamedev around. Install an old version of mame. If you want to use a P3, you have a set of trade offs and you have to pick what works best for you and live with the fact that no matter what you go with, there are going to be downsides to that choice. Trying to talk mamedev into making mame run well on a P3 when it is quite clear that isn't going to happen is like a child holding his breath. Your other actions like deleting your posts and blacking out the text "as a form of protest" just add to the impression of you acting childish. :banghead:
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It's funny. I always wondered why people were against these type of threads. I thought, hey we could have a civilized convo on improving mame. I imagined us learning about what's being worked on, the current status of naomi, getting some people inspired to finish unfinished systems.. I thought wrong. I agree with cheffo, it just turned into a bunch of whining.
Ark, I don't think people care about scaring him away. If anything he's shown to be pretty resilient and able to hold his own (even if he sounds mad all the time).
maybe it is time to close it?
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That's a disagreement... It's got nothing to do with being removed from MameWorld.
You would not know, having first said you are clueless about it, unless one of those statements is a lie. -- Disagreement? No, you were banned because your attitude and lack of reason was making more valuable people go away, or not want to join the project at all.
You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.
The actual MameWorld ban, as I said, it still makes no sense.
Of course you were not banned becasue of 'reposting deleted posts'. You have been explicitly told numerous times your personal dogma is not shared with the rest of the team. You were banned becasue they did not want you to "represent" the team, as they said. Makes sense?
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You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.
Let's be clear that the only way someone gets banned here is by violating my rules of civility and decorum, and Haze has done nothing in that vein. You are on thin ice yourself, he is not.
Get your last, polite licks in folks please. Locking this thread when I notice it again tonight...
--- saint
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You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.
When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes. Derrick and Badmouth already told you what your problems are.
I expect that your claims of having fixes are similar to your previous claims of having the ultimate control interface (while you simultaneously claimed that the interfaces from Ultimarc and GGG were bad) ... specious.
::)
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The reason you were banned is directly connected to present situation you're complaining about, it's quite hilarious really, let me give you a clue:
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1 (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1)
You misrepresent what happened ... I don't happen to agree with Haze in that thread, but it isn't quite what you represent it to be (which, oddly enough, was about someone demanding that someone else do something for them for free ... sound familiar?).
Interestingly, you failed to mention this gem, which applies here quite nicely:
unless you have done the work, you literally have no right to make demands or threats about it.
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IBTL;
I greatly appreciate everything anyone has done for mame. Even if you worked on a driver that fixed a small sound glitch in a game I have never played (yet). Also, you aren't limited to using 1 build of MAME at a time, just set up your front end to use the best version for the games you play.
The best thing MAME ever did for me was get me to want to buy dedicated cabs, which I've done and plan to do more of.
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Indeed. Actually I now play all of my classics on CoinOPS Epic, and do away with any associations on my PCs. Since the Xbox is quite nippy and dirt cheap, I am quite happy playing .9X regardless. I'm sure the Mamdevs would be spitting blood if I mentioned that earlier in this thread, but considering it is fork and a unsupported one. Whoopee.
I have SDLMame 14x running on my linux box now, and I say that the classics run better in that environment, not perfect though. It is running in RAM so maybe that makes a difference.
Its been a fun thread, but it has taught me one very important lesson: Do not advocate your values or views on this board, unless you want to be ridiculed.
I will continue to blackout my posts. Regardless if you find it infantile or not.
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Does putting your posts in between spoiler flags just to be annoying, count as 'civil'? Because I'd say that's just flat out trolling rather than 'protest'.
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Its been a fun thread, but it has taught me one very important lesson: Do not advocate your values or views on this board, unless you want to be ridiculed.
I will continue to blackout my posts. Regardless if you find it infantile or not.
It is your chosen method of delivery (tone and wording) that brings you grief, not your perspective, values, or views. This is an important distinction.
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Its been a fun thread, but it has taught me one very important lesson: Do not advocate your values or views on this board, unless you want to be ridiculed.
I will continue to blackout my posts. Regardless if you find it infantile or not.
It is your chosen method of delivery (tone and wording) that brings you grief, not your perspective, values, or views. This is an important distinction.
My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
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My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ... dunno why he would do that ... :dunno
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My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ... dunno why he would do that ... :dunno
...because all the messages he was sending were completely blacked out. :P
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My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ... dunno why he would do that ... :dunno
...because all the messages he was sending were completely blacked out. :P
To be fair, it could have been so long ago that he was using Whiteout? ;D
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...because all the messages he was sending were completely blacked out. :P
:laugh2:
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My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ... dunno why he would do that ... :dunno
One of the many reasons why we have smileys?
I think he was leaning towards communicating verbally about your issues and views, then pen and paper. It has always helped me in the past. If in doubt, pick up the phone or don't bother.
He was very much old school, and when he spoke you listened.
But like what I am implying now. Does, what I type get taken for its merit? Nope. More ridicule.
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When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes.
My fixes were refused a priori by Haze and Derrick, look back couple of pages in this thread and see for yourself, plus there was no one interested to test 720 controller - the binary is available for download, as you know.
I made several variants and I gave them a choice to pick any of those solutions, they not only refused to even discuss it, but they were unwilling to just say what kind of solution would they accept at all.
Derrick and Badmouth already told you what your problems are.
What are you doing? Everyone can see for themselves who said what, and it is obviously me who solved Derrick's problems, I am the only who actually came up with a COMPLETE WORKING solution. Why don't you go to that thread and challenge me, I'll upload binary for testing, ok?
I expect that your claims of having fixes are similar to your previous claims of having the ultimate control interface (while you simultaneously claimed that the interfaces from Ultimarc and GGG were bad) ... specious.
Yes, just like that you only need to actually try it and you will see for yourself.
You misrepresent what happened ...
Phil Bennett:
- Good grief RB, Haze. I'd vote to ban you two from representing MAME personally.
Two past contributors alienated for the sake of YOUR principles.
AaronGiles (to Phil Bennett):
- You and me both.
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You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.
Let's be clear that the only way someone gets banned here is by violating my rules of civility and decorum, and Haze has done nothing in that vein. You are on thin ice yourself, he is not.
Yeah, and I'm laughing.
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My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ... dunno why he would do that ... :dunno
One of the many reasons why we have smileys?
I think he was leaning towards communicating verbally about your issues and views, then pen and paper. It has always helped me in the past. If in doubt, pick up the phone or don't bother.
He was very much old school, and when he spoke you listened.
But like what I am implying now. Does, what I type get taken for its merit? Nope. More ridicule.
You see ark, that is one of the problems with your communication skills that you miss ... WTF would you preface that with "My Senior manager" ?
Are you trying to impress us that you have had a job where someone in upper management actually spoke to you ?
Or is he Spanish and his surname is "Manager"?
When anybody speaks, I listen.
You just don't happen to do it very well.
:-\
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When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes.
My fixes were refused a priori by Haze and Derrick, look back couple of pages in this thread and see for yourself, plus there was no one interested to test 720 controller - the binary is available for download, as you know.
I made several variants and I gave them a choice to pick any of those solutions, they not only refused to even discuss it, but they were unwilling to just say what kind of solution would they accept at all.
So, you DIDN'T actually submit the changes officially to MAMEDev, right ?
But you insist that Haze and Derrick don't represent MAMEDev.
So, properly submit your broken-ass patches and we'll see what happens.
Until then, it is the same old crap from you -- "I AM RIGHT. EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?"
:blah:
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You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.
Let's be clear that the only way someone gets banned here is by violating my rules of civility and decorum, and Haze has done nothing in that vein. You are on thin ice yourself, he is not.
Yeah, and I'm laughing.
Laugh if you want, but follow the forum rules. Thanks.
--- saint
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When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes.
My fixes were refused a priori by Haze and Derrick, look back couple of pages in this thread and see for yourself, plus there was no one interested to test 720 controller - the binary is available for download, as you know.
I made several variants and I gave them a choice to pick any of those solutions, they not only refused to even discuss it, but they were unwilling to just say what kind of solution would they accept at all.
So, you DIDN'T actually submit the changes officially to MAMEDev, right ?
But you insist that Haze and Derrick don't represent MAMEDev.
So, properly submit your broken-ass patches and we'll see what happens.
Until then, it is the same old crap from you -- "I AM RIGHT. EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?"
:blah:
He definitely lives in his own reality. Never once did he reply with a valid solution to my proposal of having both the fake and real controls exists at the same time. He did post some code from another website that removed the fake control and put back in the previous code. That is not a solution created by him. He could not even comprehend that my proposal requires you to check if the fake/real ports have changed and send that data, even after Paul told him how.
No need for him to sumbit a patch that we have said multiple times will be refused.
Patch that removes fake joystick in favour of real control = Not accepted.
Patch that makes both exist at the same time = possibly accepted depending on how it was done.
Patch that handles fake/real switching automatically in the input/port/ui = most likely to be accepted.
More of his nonsense derived by not being able to comprehend the facts = ignored.
To be honest, having real/fake 720 controls existing at the same time has drawbacks that would have been exposed if anyone tried to create the code. I was hoping someone would have tried, so they can see what new problems occur when you try one solution. Then I would have walked through how to solve the new problems. The problem being the controls would fight each other unless you set one of the controls to "NONE."
(edited for clarity by adding "existing at the same time ")
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Derrick-
I've actually enjoyed reading/watching your approach, because it's clear you are trying to guide others into finding the solution for themselves. It's too bad they just don't get it.
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So, you DIDN'T actually submit the changes officially to MAMEDev, right ?
I would not submit it untested, my friend. The point here is that I explicitly asked him how to contribute my changes and he said to put them on my web-page, as you can see for yourself if you look back at this thread a bit. -- Perhaps now you are going to suggest I should have never take him seriously in the first place, eh?
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When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes.
My fixes were refused a priori by Haze and Derrick, look back couple of pages in this thread and see for yourself, plus there was no one interested to test 720 controller - the binary is available for download, as you know.
I made several variants and I gave them a choice to pick any of those solutions, they not only refused to even discuss it, but they were unwilling to just say what kind of solution would they accept at all.
So, you DIDN'T actually submit the changes officially to MAMEDev, right ?
But you insist that Haze and Derrick don't represent MAMEDev.
So, properly submit your broken-ass patches and we'll see what happens.
Until then, it is the same old crap from you -- "I AM RIGHT. EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?"
:blah:
He definitely lives in his own reality. Never once did he reply with a valid solution to my proposal of having both the fake and real controls exists at the same time. He did post some code from another website that removed the fake control and put back in the previous code. That is not a solution created by him. He could not even comprehend that my proposal requires you need to check if the fake/real ports have changed and send that data, even after Paul told him how.
No need for him to sumbit a patch that we have said multiple times will be refused.
Patch that removes fake joystick in favour of real control = Not accepted.
Patch that makes both exist at the same time = possibly accepted depending on how it was done.
Patch that handles fake/real switching automatically in the input/port/ui = most likely to be accepted.
More of his nonsense derived by not being able to comprehend the facts = ignored.
To be honest, having real/fake 720 controls has drawbacks that would have been exposed if anyone tried to create the code. I was hoping someone would have tried, so they can see what new problems occur when you try one solution. Then I would have walked through how to solve the new problems. The problem being the controls would fight each other unless you set one of the controls to "NONE."
But you could at least try to find a solution. What is wrong with that?
Hey please forget about my request for optimization and please work with us to get this 720 thingamagig to work in Mame.
Think of it as a challenge, and not an obstacle.
You can do it! :cheers:
My Senior manager told me once: Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient. As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.
That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.
Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ... dunno why he would do that ... :dunno
One of the many reasons why we have smileys?
I think he was leaning towards communicating verbally about your issues and views, then pen and paper. It has always helped me in the past. If in doubt, pick up the phone or don't bother.
He was very much old school, and when he spoke you listened.
But like what I am implying now. Does, what I type get taken for its merit? Nope. More ridicule.
You see ark, that is one of the problems with your communication skills that you miss ... WTF would you preface that with "My Senior manager" ?
Are you trying to impress us that you have had a job where someone in upper management actually spoke to you ?
Or is he Spanish and his surname is "Manager"?
When anybody speaks, I listen.
You just don't happen to do it very well.
:-\
:troll:
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So, you DIDN'T actually submit the changes officially to MAMEDev, right ?
I would not submit it untested, my friend. The point here is that I explicitly asked him how to contribute my changes and he said to put them on my web-page, as you can see for yourself if you look back at this thread a bit. -- Perhaps now you are going to suggest I should have never take him seriously in the first place, eh?
You *asked* how to contribute your changes ? Read much ?
http://mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php/Submitting_Source_Code (http://mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php/Submitting_Source_Code)
Now, as Derrick points out, you're going to get your changes bounced because they are actually far worse than the changes to Xie-Blah Kung Fu that you bitched about.
But it would be nice to see you get your ass kicked again. Then you can delete your account here (like you did when Andy and Randy kicked your ass last time) and come back with a whole new identity.
You're like tranqhairummon, just not as funny.
:-\
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He definitely lives in his own reality. Never once did he reply with a valid solution to my proposal of having both the fake and real controls exists at the same time. He did post some code from another website that removed the fake control and put back in the previous code. That is not a solution created by him. He could not even comprehend that my proposal requires you need to check if the fake/real ports have changed and send that data, even after Paul told him how.
No need for him to sumbit a patch that we have said multiple times will be refused.
Patch that removes fake joystick in favour of real control = Not accepted.
Patch that makes both exist at the same time = possibly accepted depending on how it was done.
Patch that handles fake/real switching automatically in the input/port/ui = most likely to be accepted.
More of his nonsense derived by not being able to comprehend the facts = ignored.
To be honest, having real/fake 720 controls has drawbacks that would have been exposed if anyone tried to create the code. I was hoping someone would have tried, so they can see what new problems occur when you try one solution. Then I would have walked through how to solve the new problems. The problem being the controls would fight each other unless you set one of the controls to "NONE."
I hope you are ready to stand behind your words. I am calling you out, mate.
I dare you to submit your code here for testing and I will submit mine, then everyone can compare both solutions, see which one is "better" and give their vote.
Do you accept the challenge?
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Then you can delete your account here (like you did when Andy and Randy kicked your ass last time) and come back with a whole new identity.
He is not driverman in disguise, is he? That whole ps2/usb polling thing was a mess of a thread.
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Then you can delete your account here (like you did when Andy and Randy kicked your ass last time) and come back with a whole new identity.
He is not driverman in disguise, is he? That whole ps2/usb polling thing was a mess of a thread.
Bingo!
:applaud:
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He is not driverman in disguise, is he? That whole ps2/usb polling thing was a mess of a thread.
Bingo!
:applaud:
What thrill do certain people get by posting half truths to see what kind of response they get.
Now he wants me to do the code for him in the form of a challenge, when he never responded to the original challenge for code with any actual code. I will not be drawn in. Thanks for pointing out who he was though.
:dizzy:
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Something I have been pondering during this mess, is that if 720 uses a fake control, it would be nice to add a fake spinner. This fake spinner would automatically send out the alignment data for the second encoder. Of course you would not be able to free spin the spinner because the game was never meant to keep up to that speed. If you use a damped/non-free-spin spinner, it might work quite well.
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Everyone likes to complain but this thread is a great example of "if you spent half the time working on the problem that you have complaining about it..."
It's sad to see reasonably intelligent grown men waste so much time arguing about something so trivial. We can't all be saving the world 24/7, but c'mon dudes. Seriously.
I would say that this eyesore of a thread has actually been pretty educational to me. If you tear out the pages of garbage, there are pretty valid points about MAME from all different sides of the issues covered. I have been able to form my own opinion on things from this thread (and probably to the relief of everyone here, I keeping most of that opinion to myself :lol )
I even have to say though, that some of the most annoying flamers had a valid point or two from time to time, but I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.
:dunno
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Now he wants me to do the code for him in the form of a challenge, when he never responded to the original challenge for code with any actual code.
You only had to PICK one of my proposed solutions (Replay $41),
or make clear what variable you were talking about in your "Step 2".
Actual code is waiting for someone willing to test it. Interested?
1.) Meanwhile, in "less actual" code the solution to your problems with 720 is this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.0;all (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.0;all)
switch [ MAPPED_DEVICE_ID ]
case KEY: goto KEY_HACK
case ANALOG: goto ANAL_HACK
case MOUSE: goto PROPER_WAY
Fake/real scheme is in one-to-one relation with PC input devices. There will always be only ONE type of input that directly translates to authentic arcade signal, all the other devices, having incompatible signal/data between each other, will be unsuitable for authentic input handling, hence requiring signal conversion/simulation (hack).
So, by simply using info what we already have we can absolutely define distinction between "fake" and "real" control scheme, hence solving the problem with the minimum amount of changes and user involvement, no additional command line switches or new menus required - it's the simplest, least intrusive, and most elegant solution, thus it's the "best solution".
What part do you not understand?
2.) The solution to all your gear shifter games is simply to add "toggle switch/key" classification as a type of input device on its own, then do the same thing as for 720 above:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108566.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108566.0)
switch [ MAPPED_DEVICE_ID ]
case KEY: goto KEY_HACK
case KEY_TOGGLE: goto PROPER_WAY
Perhaps you believe your solution is better? Let's find out, bring it on!
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Please submit that code ??? to MAMEdev for approval.
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Anyone else finding a "code challenge" the most hilarious thing ever? Two grown men "fighting" over whose code is correct? :laugh2: Talk about nerd fight. I imagine you guys looking like the dude from King of Kong that asks the other guys if they want to see a DK kill screen, cause its "coming up". If I had that emoticon with the 2 smileys slapping each other, I would put it up. Jesus. :banghead:
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Anyone else finding a "code challenge" the most hilarious thing ever? Two grown men "fighting" over whose code is correct? :laugh2: Talk about nerd fight. I imagine you guys looking like the dude from King of Kong that asks the other guys if they want to see a DK kill screen, cause its "coming up". If I had that emoticon with the 2 smileys slapping each other, I would put it up. Jesus. :banghead:
Hit the [more] button, newb!
:hissy
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Anyone else finding a "code challenge" the most hilarious thing ever? Two grown men "fighting" over whose code is correct? :laugh2: Talk about nerd fight. I imagine you guys looking like the dude from King of Kong that asks the other guys if they want to see a DK kill screen, cause its "coming up". If I had that emoticon with the 2 smileys slapping each other, I would put it up. Jesus. :banghead:
Hit the [more] button, newb!
:hissy
Blahahaha I totally AM a newb! :hissy I didnt even notice the more button! :puke Haha! Now I can put my favorite one!!! The puke one!
"Thanks" Hoopz :lol
Oh man the forums just got 10 times more fun! ;D
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Anyone else finding a "code challenge" the most hilarious thing ever? Two grown men "fighting" over whose code is correct? :laugh2: Talk about nerd fight. I imagine you guys looking like the dude from King of Kong that asks the other guys if they want to see a DK kill screen, cause its "coming up". If I had that emoticon with the 2 smileys slapping each other, I would put it up. Jesus. :banghead:
Two grown men aren't fighting over whose code is correct. Abra is spoiling for an OK Corral style code-shootout. Derrick is refusing to play along.
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Anyone else finding a "code challenge" the most hilarious thing ever? Two grown men "fighting" over whose code is correct? :laugh2: Talk about nerd fight. I imagine you guys looking like the dude from King of Kong that asks the other guys if they want to see a DK kill screen, cause its "coming up". If I had that emoticon with the 2 smileys slapping each other, I would put it up. Jesus. :banghead:
Two grown men aren't fighting over whose code is correct. Abra is spoiling for an OK Corral style code-shootout. Derrick is refusing to play along.
In similiar challenges, I am having the "build Vigo a Jukebox" challenge! Anyone who builds me a proper jukebox and submits it to my doorstep will have a gurantee that I will incorporate that jukebox into my gameroom. Bragging rights are the reward.
Any takers?
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:duckhunt
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At least abaraba is consistent:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649311 (http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649311)
BTW, have you never mused in the past, why does my OS today boot 100 times slower than my C64 20 years ago? Must that really be? Does that actually make any sense? Is that progress and evolution, or digress and devolution? What the...? -- Or something among those lines?
http://developer.nvidia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2286&pid=6375&mode=threaded&start= (http://developer.nvidia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2286&pid=6375&mode=threaded&start=)
- what the?
what are you talking about? almost all of my questions to you were in the yes/no form, what is it you referring to?
http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/62683-10.html (http://beyondyourken.com/phoenix/Pages/62683-10.html)
what the, who are you?
http://bulletphysics.org/Bullet/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2277 (http://bulletphysics.org/Bullet/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2277)
what the... where did you see anything like that?
He said it somewhere earlier in this thread, I just can't find it.
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What the ...? I am talking about simple "MAP THE INPUT" thing. Press 'enter' over input control you want to re-map and then press desired key to map it to that key, or move a mouse to assign it to mouse axis (spinner/trackball), or move analog joystick to assign it to analog stick axis, or move 8-way arcade joystick wired via some adapter to whatever PC port to map that micro switch... and whatever else is there. -- Not only there is no need to remove any of those options, but DEFAULT mapping for 720 Degrees should be initialized to "spinner", that's where you DOCUMENT what kind of controls the game cabinet actually used.
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I propose saint makes a challenge forum! Then people can go mano y mano with each other. Or better yet, why don't we do a webcame code-off! We put two coders in a STEEL CAGE and only one of them can leave a winner!!!!
That would surely cure my insomnia...
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Anyone else finding a "code challenge" the most hilarious thing ever? Two grown men "fighting" over whose code is correct? :laugh2: Talk about nerd fight. I imagine you guys looking like the dude from King of Kong that asks the other guys if they want to see a DK kill screen, cause its "coming up". If I had that emoticon with the 2 smileys slapping each other, I would put it up. Jesus. :banghead:
Two grown men aren't fighting over whose code is correct. Abra is spoiling for an OK Corral style code-shootout. Derrick is refusing to play along.
ok but its still funny. Code-shootout is what made me laugh :lol
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Of course you were not banned becasue of 'reposting deleted posts'. You have been explicitly told numerous times your personal dogma is not shared with the rest of the team. You were banned becasue they did not want you to "represent" the team, as they said. Makes sense?
If I attempt to log into Mameworld I get a message with the ban reason
'reposting deleted posts'
Cut the bull, you know _nothing_ as you've repeatedly shown.
As I've said, if they were the mature 'responsible' ones, they would at least allow posts of the work in progress, to show where MAME is developing. They don't, you will get banned for attempting to post links to such progress on my site. Do you think Aaron would strip all mention of me from Mame Development the same way? of course not.
The ban is nothing but a fabricated personal vendetta from a childish mod.
As for your other claims, I single-handedly GOT more people involved with MAME than anybody else during the period I was in charge, spending days and night explaining things to them on IRC, helping them understand the codebase and how to code. Working with them and encouraging them do submit, and improve their coding.
The likes of Pierpaolo, Angelo, Tomasz and Robiza are all devs I worked closely with, helping them to understand the code, and making it far easier of them to apply their skills to the project in areas where they had a better understanding than me (Assembler code, protection devices, schematic reading etc.) These devs + others have been the lifeblood of the project over the last 5-6 years, the ones actually doing the heavy development work, the ones making progress in areas that matter. Nobody is really doing that these days, mailing people who've submitted to MAME, teaching them things, encouraging them to work on other bits, and it shows.
You really seem determined to paint me in some bad light here. I don't have time for selfish or truly incompetent people, but those with a genuine ability and willingness to learn the specifics of MAME I've always had time for. My attitude towards other people depends entirely on their attitude towards me, and the project.
Maybe you hate me for the specific reason that I stepped in last time MAME was struggling, and took over things from Nicola, maybe you would have prefer if everything had just stopped there with one of those ancient versions that runs on an old P3 with all the devs getting pissed off because they were submitting things, with months between releases, only to find that their submissions had been missed, or ended up being applied incorrectly and they had to do the whole thing again, only to find the same happened, once again, with no reasons being given? MAME _could_ in my honest opinion have died at that point because it was becoming too frustrating to work with.
Yes, if people have bad attitudes I will call their bluff, but for you to attempt to somehow blame me for any of this is ridiculous when I've spent as much time getting people involved as anything else.
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I propose saint makes a challenge forum! Then people can go mano y mano with each other. Or better yet, why don't we do a webcame code-off! We put two coders in a STEEL CAGE and only one of them can leave a winner!!!!
That would surely cure my insomnia...
TWO DEV'S ENTER, ONE DEV LEAVES!
TWO DEV'S ENTER, ONE DEV LEAVES!
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I propose saint makes a challenge forum! Then people can go mano y mano with each other. Or better yet, why don't we do a webcame code-off! We put two coders in a STEEL CAGE and only one of them can leave a winner!!!!
That would surely cure my insomnia...
TWO DEV'S ENTER, ONE DEV LEAVES!
TWO DEV'S ENTER, ONE DEV LEAVES!
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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Of course you were not banned becasue of 'reposting deleted posts'. You have been explicitly told numerous times your personal dogma is not shared with the rest of the team. You were banned becasue they did not want you to "represent" the team, as they said. Makes sense?
If I attempt to log into Mameworld I get a message with the ban reason
'reposting deleted posts'
Cut the bull, you know _nothing_ as you've repeatedly shown.
As I've said, if they were the mature 'responsible' ones, they would at least allow posts of the work in progress, to show where MAME is developing. They don't, you will get banned for attempting to post links to such progress on my site. Do you think Aaron would strip all mention of me from Mame Development the same way? of course not.
The ban is nothing but a fabricated personal vendetta from a childish mod.
As for your other claims, I single-handedly GOT more people involved with MAME than anybody else during the period I was in charge, spending days and night explaining things to them on IRC, helping them understand the codebase and how to code. Working with them and encouraging them do submit, and improve their coding.
The likes of Pierpaolo, Angelo, Tomasz and Robiza are all devs I worked closely with, helping them to understand the code, and making it far easier of them to apply their skills to the project in areas where they had a better understanding than me (Assembler code, protection devices, schematic reading etc.) These devs + others have been the lifeblood of the project over the last 5-6 years, the ones actually doing the heavy development work, the ones making progress in areas that matter. Nobody is really doing that these days, mailing people who've submitted to MAME, teaching them things, encouraging them to work on other bits, and it shows.
You really seem determined to paint me in some bad light here. I don't have time for selfish or truly incompetent people, but those with a genuine ability and willingness to learn the specifics of MAME I've always had time for. My attitude towards other people depends entirely on their attitude towards me, and the project.
Maybe you hate me for the specific reason that I stepped in last time MAME was struggling, and took over things from Nicola, maybe you would have prefer if everything had just stopped there with one of those ancient versions that runs on an old P3 with all the devs getting pissed off because they were submitting things, with months between releases, only to find that their submissions had been missed, or ended up being applied incorrectly and they had to do the whole thing again, only to find the same happened, once again, with no reasons being given? MAME _could_ in my honest opinion have died at that point because it was becoming too frustrating to work with.
Yes, if people have bad attitudes I will call their bluff, but for you to attempt to somehow blame me for any of this is ridiculous when I've spent as much time getting people involved as anything else.
Welcome back Haze. We thought you had left us behind, never to return. Your post isn't very punctual. There was a period of time that went by that you did not instantly respond. Is Wednesday pizza night or did you get called out to fix some ATMs? Anyhoo. Its nice to see you back to answer the claims that you tend to have a dislike for new coders. I think you do not have this personal trait, otherwise you would not have posted that comment on your website, and attracted some attention to yourself in the process. If anything you are the goose that laid golden egg. The lucky charm.
I understand NCR still uses NT4 for their legacy accounting applications, where as IBM and others uses XP. I'll have to dig up a few pictures for you showing ATM BSODs. Funny stuff.
(http://odaecom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/atmbluescreen.jpg)
This one was some kind of malware attack I found while googling.
(http://bp1.blogger.com/_R1s5-AeiKEs/SGvTNnKGXvI/AAAAAAAAACk/f40PmvyZg0Q/s400/NT+ATM.jpg)
Ahh the good old days.
Thanks for answering the post of abraba and clearing up any misinformation.
Aaron and Company must of had a bad day at the office.
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(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/31/043abf2d-e5c4-4c54-8c46-eceeac66c27f.jpg)
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LAST!!!!!!
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Welcome back Haze. We thought you had left us behind, never to return. Your post isn't very punctual. There was a period of time that went by that you did not instantly respond. Is Wednesday pizza night or did you get called out to fix some ATMs? Anyhoo. Its nice to see you back to answer the claims that you tend to have a dislike for new coders. I think you do not have this personal trait, otherwise you would not have posted that comment on your website, and attracted some attention to yourself in the process. If anything you are the goose that laid golden egg. The lucky charm.
And somehow you think that you are not behaving like a spoiled child ?
:dizzy:
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As bad as abaraba has been, at least he hasn't done any 'Everybody look at me!' type of posts. Saint truly has the patience of one.
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As bad as abaraba has been, at least he hasn't done any 'Everybody look at me!' type of posts. Saint truly has the patience of one.
Aye..
I'm just taking the blacked out text as if it was in Japanese or something. It requires additional effort to read, so I'm not bothering.
Comedy all round with the latest ShmupMAME build anyway, where they're trying to backport all the recent fixes related to Shooter games to 0.99 or something.
Doesn't even work for half the people that are trying to run it (just plain crashes before doing anything), and people are finding all the glitches in the drivers they didn't bother to backport (no proper CPS2 support, yep.. busted priority in Kaneko drivers, yep.. incorrect aspect on everything if using a Widescreen monitor, yep...), as well as glitches in the ones they did. But we would have all been far better off if we'd stuck with that codebase, and the pre-rewrite video system, right?
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Haze gets last post! (yeah yeah, mine doesn't count)