the state of mame

[southpaw13]

Probably will never see Dragon's Lair or Space Ace as long as Digital Leisure is selling them...
Daphne found a way to compliment what Digital Leisure is selling so it works well for both of them...

This go the same for the lack of Golden Tee golf editions....

Southpaw

[Jack Burton]

I'm one of those people that want games like Fire Shark emulated more accurately.  I've never even seen or played a real PCB of it, but I know its reputation in shmup circles and I like what I've played in the current soundless version emulated.  There's more to Mame than what you played in arcades.  

[Haze]

I'm one of those people that want games like Fire Shark emulated more accurately.  I've never even seen or played a real PCB of it, but I know its reputation in shmup circles and I like what I've played in the current soundless version emulated.  There's more to Mame than what you played in arcades.  

Fire Shark needs a PCB buying and the MCU sent for decapping.  It's the only way to have proper sound in that case; all the code and sequencing data for the music is locked away in that chip.

That's one of the tasks where regular guys CAN help with donations etc. because it's not a cheap process, and it's an impossible task for an emulation programmer alone (we physically don't have the code to actually emulate the sound CPU)

[jipp]

boogie wings looks fun!

chris.

[keefyboy]

So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?

[Haze]

So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?

I don't know the current going price for a PCB of it, but you're looking at $250 at least for just the decap fee, and it might require more than one try / attempt because it's a procedure that can just go wrong and kill the chip dead before being able to read the data, as has happened with several in the past.

$250 is only because the guy is giving MameDev special discounts as well, his usual fees are much higher, but it also means that MameDev work gets a much lower priority.

Unfortunately it's not a cheap or easy process, but in some cases it really is needed


Heavy Unit is a good example of a game we've only been able to emulate properly now that the protection MCU has been decapped.  The original (non-bootleg) Slapfight / Alcon is another that was done recently.

[Dave_K.]

So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?

$275 shipped for a Fire Shark PCB here.  I believe he's in Taiwan, a good seller I've bought from before.

[Haze]

So for us plebians, how much US $ are we talking about to buy Fire Shark, for example?

$275 shipped for a Fire Shark PCB here.  I believe he's in Taiwan, a good seller I've bought from before.

Checking the lists a new PCB might not be needed, it's already listed actually.

102    HD647180    QFP80       Fire Shark    Decap & de-protect
19    HD647180    QFP80       Vimana    Decap & de-protect
58     HD647180    QFP80       Teki Paki    Decap & de-protect

Which basically just means he has the chip and it's a case of time / money.. and the guys getting their priorities right.  They seem to be decapping quite a lot *useless* chips which tell us nothing at the moment.

However, if it were to fail (or if it's already dead..), then yes, another PCB would be needed.

but yeah, with enough money those can almost certainly be decapped and read out for each game, granting sound emulation in them.

[danny_galaga]

Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work...

You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group.

The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown)

The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned?  Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern?  You've got Mahjong games to thank for that....

When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too.

The same can be extended to adult games and others.  If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom.

The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece.  This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work.

Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones.  They admit this in an interview somewhere.

Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-)

Another good point. But it still seems to me there are (very generally speaking) two schools of thought. Would make sense to have two groups who share info that relates to each others projects. One group does arcade games, the other does gambling/mahjong games. In a way, it would be emulating (teehee) what several games manufacturers used to do. Since the latter group aren't going to feel constrained by being absolutely faithful, they can soldier on with their work, while the former group might attract new blood interested in the work that group is doing. Both groups could then concentrate on improving games that need improving before moving on to newer games.

Fresh blood seems to be a big problem, that could be a way to get some (",)

[Haze]

Good point, but if the japanese fan base of Mahjong games really don't care about accurate emulation, why bother doing it in MAME? Seems to me neither East or West would appreciate all that work...

You can't really bundle up everybody into the same group.

The Japanese / Asian developers have a different philosophy but the actual work is appreciated greatly by the community as a whole (including PCB owners, who are otherwise hindered by the lack of openness shown)

The benefits beyond that are the ones I've already mentioned?  Like having proper sound in the likes of Cyvern?  You've got Mahjong games to thank for that....

When we get around to adding sound in the fighting game 'Rabbit' the two Mahjong games using the same custom chip will no doubt help there too.

The same can be extended to adult games and others.  If it wasn't for a bootleg Pocket Gal Deluxe showing up (if for example MAME ignored adult games, so buying it was never considered) it's possible that Boogie Wings and Diet Go Go would not yet be working because that seemingly pointless bootleg, and comparisons between the bootleg and the original sets allowed us to figure out the encryption on everything using the DECO102 custom.

The Korean language quiz game running on Raiden 2 hardware has so far been proving to be an essential reference for improving the emulation of Raiden 2, because like many 3rd party games they use the protection in more obvious ways than Seibu, thus allowing it to be figured out more easily, piece by piece.  This might still take years to do (or it could end up being done next year, who knows) but once that's all properly figured out a whole bunch of Seibu games from the early 90s, including the 'classics' Seibu Cup Soccer and Raiden 2 / DX will work.

Even outside of emulation, Toaplan, who produced quite a few popular shooters before everybody went their own ways to form the likes of Cave, started off by bootlegging Mahjong games because they were popular enough that there was a high enough demand even for games which were just bootlegs of existing ones.  They admit this in an interview somewhere.

Don't underestimate the value of 'worthless' games ;-)

Another good point. But it still seems to me there are (very generally speaking) two schools of thought. Would make sense to have two groups who share info that relates to each others projects. One group does arcade games, the other does gambling/mahjong games. In a way, it would be emulating (teehee) what several games manufacturers used to do. Since the latter group aren't going to feel constrained by being absolutely faithful, they can soldier on with their work, while the former group might attract new blood interested in the work that group is doing. Both groups could then concentrate on improving games that need improving before moving on to newer games.

Fresh blood seems to be a big problem, that could be a way to get some (",)

Your logic really doesn't make sense.

You're saying if I'm working on a driver, which has Mahjong games in, which are essential to getting the driver running properly, testing it properly and maintaining it properly I should just say  "These are Mahjong games, I'm not looking at them, somebody else will" ?   That's only going to severely delay progress and result in more bugs.

The point is, to MAME, and the best MAMEdevs it's code and components, the nature of the game that comes up on your screen beyond that is irrelevant.  As I've said before, the good developers relish the prospect of working on anything at all.

If anything, the opposite approach works better, which is 'emulate whatever you want'  Putting artificial restraints on what people are allowed to emulate can't help anything at all?

Your approach is pretty much suggesting reintroducing the MAME/AGEMAME type split but for MAME/Mahjong, which ... didn't work, it only hindered development, created uncertainty (with nobody being sure if they should work on something, or who to contact about a PCB just in case it was gambling)

MAME/PinMAME... yeah that worked well too, PinMAME is practically dead and unable to take advantage of any core improvements to sound/CPU emulation made in MAME now.

It's also similar to the MAME/MESS situation, which ... while MESS is highly active .. isn't really working in cases where the hardware is shared, due to the separate teams and inability to test changes cross-project as easily which is becoming increasingly common, hindering development, and introducing bugs in both MAME and MESS.

Splitting something which is otherwise identical across multiple projects with different teams has historically been proven to not work very well.  Splitting the development of MAME and Mahjong drivers would have exactly the same effect.  If anything it makes it look like there are even more 'political' problems within the team causing splits for no apparent technical reason or benefit.  Remember, this is a technical project, not a 'free games of your choosing' one.

[Xiaou2]

1) To properly implement something, yes, developers need the controls

 No, they dont.   720 was working without the controller, and it was enabled.
As were many other games that Devs dont have controllers for.

 There ARE cases where there is needed hardware... such as when there are special add-on PCBs, Force feedback motors, or readings that need to be measured.   

 However, in 720's case, its a simple dual Optics set.  Theres no need whatsoever to have the real hardware.  If you have bothered to even look at the device, you would know that.

 It has a tron-esc encoder wheel to read position (72 spoke? spinner), and a 2ndary encoder disc that has a single slot cut out of it, which is a Calibration disc... that keeps the players controls from getting too far out of sync w/ the onscreen position.  It acts as a simple On/Off switch.
 
 As for things like Shifters.  Thats also not needed.  They are simple On/ Off switches, and again, are HACKED to work completely Opposite to the way Arcade machines work.  A operational switch would easily allow dual modes for correct and hacked methods... and its the RIGHT thing to do.

2) Aaron would like to keep switches down to a minimum, he's stated this in the past.

 That is a BS  E X C U S E  for not getting things to work Properly and ACCURATELY!!!!!  Instead of a GIANT HACK JOB like 720 current is.

3) Again, if you have a special use case, there is nothing preventing you from either changing it yourself, or paying for somebody to change it yourself.  Just don't expect Mamedev to do it for you.  It's a special case, nothing more, nothing less.

 Its NOT a Special Case.  Its called ACCURATELY REPRESENTING HARDWARE!

 Mame is SUPPOSED to be about 100% Arcade Accuracy.   AND, every time someone proposes a HACK, Mame Devs will CRY about Accuracy.  Yet what do they do with 720???  HACK THE HELL OUT OF IT.   It NEVER controlled with an analog joystick!  Its completely bastardized.

 Yet, I ask mame to allow for an alternate input method for superhangon's brake, and I get the standard "we dont change the nature of Arcade hardware/ Inputs"

 Its a giant LOAD of Stinking BS.

Introducing unmaintainable, untested code into the project is suicide.

 Adding a frickin Switch to make an Arcade machine emulated 100% accurately isnt Unmaintainable.  Thats more BS for you kids.

 There are far many other Crappy switches and options that are meaningless and worthless... and have continued to be kept in.

 
 The main thing here is that 720 should not have been hacked in the 1st place.
If anything, there should be a "CHEAT" to allow the game to be HACKED with an
analog stick.  The real game does NOT exhibit that nature at all.  And because of that, mame is a bunch of Elitist Hypocrites.

 Who again, dont give two Craps about the USERS, the very people who Support preservation efforts through donations... PCBS, Artwork, and more.

 Quite a slap in the face from these KIDS who wernt even around to play many of these games... and clearly dont understand their value.   To ppl like Haze, 720 is as valuable as a Jap Porn Mahjong game. (maybe less so, due to his technical "puzzle" interest)

 I find it Tragically funny how one who Preaches about Preservation and Accuracy has no gripes whatsoever about Butchering a classic game.

[Xiaou2]

Nothing, actually.  I wasn't actually aware this had occurred, as I'm still pretty new here.

 Before you dive your Hatred on someone, get a clear understanding of the situation. Else you look like a fool.

Quote from: Xiaou2 on December 29, 2010, 03:27:17 PM
Now, what have YOU done for Preservation sake?

Hmm.  Again, nothing.

 Well, maybe its time to Start doing more than flapping your lips?  There are many things that need preservation efforts, and many ways you can help keep history from being trashed.

 One immediately Easy thing you can do, is Rally for games to not be Hacked, like in the case of 720.  Real hardware should be easily interfaced to be able to be used and experienced by anyone who has a real controller, builds their own controller...etc...  Without ANY additional programming or jumping thru a hoops.
 

But, here's where we differ:   I respect those who have contributed to MAME development, and I don't post like a pompous, elitist, self-serving ass who thinks he's entitled to have his opinions on the direction of the development actually heard and followed.  You post like your donations or ideas mean you deserve something in return.

 Your poor attitude speaks Volumes about the backing behind it.

 You see, Im a Preservationist, and Classic fan.  I grew up with these games, and played most all the major classics IN-PERSON, on REAL MACHINES.

 I have a RIGHT to be disgruntled about Mames PATHETIC and Hypocritical
excuses, and low standards of Preservation.  Im not the only one.  Im just one who dares (Gasp) open his mouth about it.

  PPL like Haze are trying to touch up a Famous sculptors creation with bubble gum... or fix a famous oil painting with finger paints...  and call it "Good Enough".
I have the Right to be ticked off about that... and so do others.  Others like the very CREATORS of these works, who specifically balanced the entire gameplay around these specially designed controllers.

 The more people that just Kiss the Devs Butts, and dont say a word,.. the more likely valuable things will be Lost forever.

 Ive given plenty of Props and Respect to Devs, and what I got in return, was more Disrespect than anything else.  So, this bad attitude I supposedly have, isnt merely something I presented Immediately.  You have no idea the warm fuzzies I sent to various devs... and the cold and even abusive responses Ive gotten in return.

 So yeah, my respect level with them now, is Definitely pretty poor.  Especially with ppl like Haze, who does not even really value the content.

[CheffoJeffo]

I have a RIGHT to be disgruntled about Mames PATHETIC and Hypocritical excuses, and low standards of Preservation.  Im not the only one.  Im just one who dares (Gasp) open his mouth about it.

Actually, you DON'T, anymore than I or anybody else does.

I totally appreciate that you have contributed and really care about the preservation of one of the more important elements of classic games (which is almost always overlooked by those who haven't worked with original hardware) -- the controls.

Sure, for 99.9% of the folks out there, specialty controls for individual games don't matter, but I see value in preserving that aspect. It is one of the reasons that I try not to jump on the bandwagon regarding RAM Controls and their delivery problems.

OTOH, I have no reasonable expectation for anybody else to undertake such burden. A further complication is the various means of interfacing such controls.

I applaud the desire to support original specialty controllers, but you have no more right to expect the MAMEDevs to do what you want than folks who donate to BYOAC have to expect saint to give them access to PostHell (which is really something to see -- your contrributions are exemplary!).

 

[Malenko]

I have a RIGHT to be disgruntled about Mames PATHETIC and Hypocritical
excuses, and low standards of Preservation.  Im not the only one.  Im just one who dares (Gasp) open his mouth about it.

You might have the right, but that doesnt make you right.

PPL like Haze are trying to touch up a Famous sculptors creation with bubble gum... or fix a famous oil painting with finger paints...  and call it "Good Enough". I have the Right to be ticked off about that... and so do others.  Others like the very CREATORS of these works, who specifically balanced the entire gameplay around these specially designed controllers.

MAME is open source, code it yourself. Oh, thats right.......
You proclaim Haze is just making it good enough, what exactly are you doing again? I mean other then complaining about MAME and specialty controls.  Why dont you give a buncha money to RAM Controls and make custom controls for specialty games, like bike handles for paperboy and what not. How about making giant frankenpanels and selling them in the BST section.

If you dont like the way MAME handles 720, then play 720 on something else or fix it yourself.

[ark_ader]

.

[CheffoJeffo]

"if you don't like it, then do it yourself ban ---my bottom---" doesn't really apply when the programmers trolls are actively stirring up debate on message boards.

Just sayin'.

Fixt

[Malenko]

"if you don't like it, then do it yourself" doesn't really apply when the programmers are actively stirring up debate on message boards.

Just sayin'.

I also said he can play 720 on something else if he didnt like MAME. Like on midway Arcade Treasures ( on PS2, Xbox, GameCube, and even the PC) cause those programmers made a special spinner controller for.....wait, no they didnt. I remember buying that special controller for Smash TV on SNES, wait no, that didnt exist either! Xiaou2 wants to ---smurfette--- and moan but not do anythign about it.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting something better in MAME, but there is something wrong to expect it of devs.

[Haze]

"if you don't like it, then do it yourself" doesn't really apply when the programmers are actively stirring up debate on message boards.

Just sayin'.

I also said he can play 720 on something else if he didnt like MAME. Like on midway Arcade Treasures ( on PS2, Xbox, GameCube, and even the PC) cause those programmers made a special spinner controller for.....wait, no they didnt. I remember buying that special controller for Smash TV on SNES, wait no, that didnt exist either! Xiaou2 wants to ---smurfette--- and moan but not do anythign about it.

Theres nothing wrong with wanting something better in MAME, but there is something wrong to expect it of devs.

It's also a little bit pointless blaming me for it.

I've never worked on the 720 driver, Aaron has.

I've never worked on the core code that deals with controls, Aaron has.

Nobody is claiming 100% accuracy.

"MAME is strictly a non-profit project. Its main purpose is to be a reference to the inner workings of the emulated arcade machines." (from about MAME on mamedev.org)
The controls are on the outside, how we handle them isn't defined by this project statement.

Your beef seems to be with Aaron, the things you're complaining about are all things he is responsible for, yet you're using them to put me down, just because I'm explaining where things are coming from and why they are as they are.

PS PinMAME should be coming back to life, within MAME, or at least, the code will be maintained within the main tree, obviously MAME will never directly run Pinball sims with physics etc. on it's own, but you could use it as an I/O interface using the likes of MameHooker etc. I'm sure.  One of the devs painstakingly updated all their old code to compile again, although most of it has been stripped down to the bare non-functional minimum because the old code was just too old to work with any of MAME's current systems and employed gross hacks to do things that MAME can do natively now (eg creating a fake video system to display the LCDs etc.)

This kinda builds on the point I was making earlier about keeping things together; because they weren't most of it is going to have to be rewritten rather than evolving with the project as everything else has.

[ark_ader]

.

[Haze]

The exemption to this idea would be the Laserdisc Emulator, Daphne. Actual captures from laserdiscs enabled the project, to thrive.  The captures not an easy task to complete, and from the unauthorized distribution of active copyrighted material on the Internet, the developers used a novel distribution model with Digital Leisure, to promote their project and copyrighted material for legitimate users. That is pretty cool, considering it is from a preservation project aspect.  Would that be something difficult to implement in Mame?  

Yes the horse has already bolted out of the barn, and the past is just that, gone.  Can Mame become a closed project, or a symbiotic distribution outlet?

No, it can not.  MAME is an open project, such solutions tie it to a specific platform, and would force important parts of MAME (debugger) etc. to be crippled for copyright reasons (because it could be used to bypass any such system).  This has no part in a project like MAME and the 'no linking against closed libraries' clause specifically exists to prevent this type of abuse of the system.

Essentially doing this would kill the project because it could no longer be properly open and unrestricted.  MAME is a product of the public, for the public, in the best interests of the public.

Beyond that, there are more technical reasons too, the modern Digital Leisure based stuff simply wouldn't work under MAME's laserdisc emulation architecture which requires more data than just the visible video in order to work.  To get them to work you'd have even have to throw away the concept of properly emulating the system by hooking up hacks to bypass the actual emulation of the LD player and such (which Daphne does for everything anyway)  At this point it really stops even *being* MAME, and you have something like Daphne.... so, why not just use that?

Mame's purpose for archival, which merits exclusion to the DMCA begs me ask this question yet again to Haze:  Has the Mame Team ever [to date] submitted the entire digital catalog of the Mame Project to the Library Of Congress, or will Mame ever be a partner of the NDIIPP?

If this not the intention, then making excuses afterwards for the project and participants is irrelevant and practically impossible to justify.

Mame is responsible under its own declaration to document the archival of arcade machines 100%.  

The answer hasn't changed from before.  You can let the developers get on with what they want, or you can tie them down with red tape in some effort to be more official?  Given how difficult it is already to encourage people to work on the project further red tape and other bureaucracy associated with something like the NDIIPP would, in my opinion, not help the project.  Governments, and related projects aren't known for their efficiency, and as previously mentioned, the development team probably only has a 5-10% US weighting anyway even if the current lead developer is American.

MAME is already recognized globally (aside from maybe by X2) as doing a fine job, albeit begrudgingly by some publishers who would rather not admit it has saved their skin more often than it hasn't.  Again, I don't see the point, I don't see any _real_ benefits, just additional pressure.  The DMCA does not concern MameDev at this time.  I would also expect any kind of official recognition to cause prices of uncommon PCBs to sky-rocket, which wouldn't benefit anybody except those hoarding the last few remaining copies of them, some of which are already no doubt incredibly close to extinct for this reason.  The manufacturers wouldn't be simply handing over their original roms, because I assure you, in most cases they don't have them anymore, or the IP ownership is so convoluted these days, they can't.

Every time you start bringing this up you seem very 'robotic' in your viewpoints, that everything has to be officially signed sealed and stamped to be acceptable with 1000 references to back everything up and that the DMCA is some big nasty stick being waved at Mamedev who are running into hiding in Afghanistan because of it.  Mamedev is organic, the project is organic, we get on with our own things the way each of us feel best.  It's the complete opposite of the way you seem to view it, and the things you seem to view as important are completely irrelevant to the developers of the project.  There isn't going to be any middle ground here, neither of us are going to agree.

Mame is responsible under its own declaration to document the archival of arcade machines 100%.

MAME is _responsible_ for nothing.

I personally might feel a level of responsibility, but really, nothing is guaranteed.

Maybe some people would like MAME to be responsible for everything, maybe this is why development seems to be being taken for granted, but really, it isn't.  This was one of my original points, people just seem to think the existing MAME team will take care of everything.

Some people would like the TV to be responsible for their kids too.

Again there has been a strong shift in attitude here over the years, from when people were grateful whenever MAME emulated anything, to simply *expecting* MAME to emulate everything.  I think this attitude might also be putting people off.

[ark_ader]

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[Haze]

Well I found this interesting.

The inclusion into the NDIIPP, could breathe new life into the project, open the door to new resources, new coders, build new relationships with companies related to the project.

Isn't this the main reason for your vent on your webpage?  Lack of direction/commitment/resources?  The trickle you mentioned?

What can be possibly so horrific and counterproductive to consider donating the Mame Project officially to the Library Of Congress?  

What are you frightened of?  Loss of control?

No.  Pride maybe?

Yes it might close the doors on future gaming prospects, but MAME is not about gaming, so that is not a problem, right?

I'm sorry Haze I cannot see your argument against submittal.  

I think of it as an opportunity to bring in new talent.  

I just fail to see a single _advantage_

No, it wouldn't breathe new life into the project.  The project is already known globally, and working on the project as I've explained before, requires rather specific skill-sets.

It creates odd political situations.  Would MAME have to strip everything out that wasn't a US version?  That might offend US users?  Might be one way to remove support for the Mahjong games... I'm honestly not sure possession of some of those Korean 'adult' games would be considered legal in the US either.  How would the rest of the world feel about this?  Again MAME has _very_ little to do with the US, why choose that?  Even in terms of arcade games the US influence is minimal.  You had a couple of success stories (early Atari, early Midway) but beyond that?

You're starting to come across as very pushy, as if you have an agenda and somehow work with the NDIIPP.  You manage to do this with most of your posts, regardless of subject.  Like X2 you don't seem to like the answers you get, so you become more pushy.

In all your posts I have seen no convincing arguments for such a movement.  It reminds me a lot of the 'make MAME GPL and faeries will come down and write all the drivers for you*' arguments people put forward from time to time, or all the adverts on TV telling me that I need to go out and buy a new 3D TV....

If somebody else was to want to do this, using the information in MAME as a base they're more than welcome to, but MAME has _already_ cemented it's place in history for the work it's already done without needing any kind of official recognition for it.


* You've only got the look at the state of even some of the most popular Linux apps to know, that's just not going to work.  Most of them are atrocities, and the GPL definitely hasn't saved them or given them quality developers which is a shame, because I'd really like to like and use Linux.

[ark_ader]

.

[Haze]

Perhaps you can comment in my other requests for information.

I've already commented on everything I thought was worth replying to, the other stuff has been answered elsewhere.

Development and the things being playable go hand in hand.  One is not possible without the other, they support each other to allow for further development.  This is not a reflection that MAME has become (or always was) a project about 'playing the games'

If MAME was not playable, how would I have reached level 5 in Fire Barrel to fix the graphic bugs in it?  There is no public documentation for the custom chips on that PCB, no way to know without playing it, in the emulator, and analysing the test case it gives to reverse engineer the behavior.

If MAME was to make things unplayable in public releases, how would anybody know things were broken to report them, so that they could be fixed?

It needs to be possible for your average person using normal hardware to play the things supported in MAME, because most developers are average people using normal hardware.

On the contrary, if MAME was more about playing the games, why would we go the extra mile to emulate properly emulate speech chips, with a huge performance hit, when the Samples were more than good enough to just play the games?

Again you seem to be seeing this as a very 'black or white' issue, one or the other, archival, or playing games.  This is the very same point X2 can't seem to understand.  MAME documents what it can, but also MUST remain accessible in order to progress this documentation.

Being able to play the games IS still a side-effect of it, because the primary goal is to figure things out and document them, but without that side-effect it becomes impossible to achieve the primary goal because with every piece of progress MAME / MAMEdev are making history (or at least discovering things which have been long lost, if they were ever properly documented at all, which in most cases they weren't)

You can't just stick a PCB on the lap of a developer say 'look at it, now emulate it based on what you see on your lap'  The chips there might give you some pointers to get started, but nothing more.

MAME is a collection of the knowledge of the contributors to the project, anything which helps further that knowledge is considered a good thing.

--

and no, MAME has no 'end date'  Again, you're seeing this as a very 'robotical', 'by the rules' 'system'.  It isn't.  Can you PLEASE try to understand this.  There will ALWAYS be something left to do in MAME, I guarantee you that even 30 years from now there will be things left to do in MAME.  Whether people will be actively working on them is another question.

You completely miss the human element of the project in every single one of your questions despite it being one of the most important things about the project.  MAME is NOT a Machine, it is not a commercial product, it has no ship date, none of that stuff.. It's something people work on because they enjoy working on it.

I don't think it's worth replying to another one of your posts.  You've been claiming to have been working on this thesis for ages, studying MAME for ages, but you still manage to miss the most obvious things about it.  You need to actually take in what you've been told before continually asking the same things and expecting me to give you different answers.

basically, it's like you asking me to draw a circle, then telling me I haven't drawn a circle because not every point is equidistant from the center to the nearest 0.005mm.  That is to say, it's annoying.  MAME is MAME.

[Dexter]

Which again, is why there is a need for Money to pay developers to care, and get things 100% Preserved.  Not half A**ed like it is currently.

I can recall seeing a certain developers name called 'haze' countless time in the change notes for new mame releases WRT improvements etc.

Can't recall seeing yours, half assed effort or otherwise.

You may have made donations to preservation projects, but I've made donations to several third-world projects and it doesn't give me the right to call the volunteers efforts 'half assed' merely because poverty still exists in those countries.

I'm an appreciative beneficiary of mames 'side-effect' of playing classic games for 12 years now and it has been the backbone of my hobby thanks to the efforts and skillsets volunteered by these guys. May I suggest you take the energy you devote to your sense of entitlement and use it to learn programming.....and then use the remainder of that energy to make the mamedevs efforts look 'half assed' by achieving what you have no right to demand of others??

I look forward to seeing your name in a future whatsnew.txt

[DillonFoulds]

How can i unsubscribe to threads? This one went waaay off topic :S

[Gray_Area]

Does anybody have a Snicker's bar...or five...for Xiaou2?

[ark_ader]

.

[SammyWI]

Well this thread has been hard to read though all the, uh 'issues'.  But, I'm glad I got through it, I've learned a lot from many different angles.  It's come close to spiraling down into the typical internet pissing match, but not quite.  People will always disagree on some things.  What a boring world this would be if we all agreed on everything. 

[nitz]

I'm glad I've gone through it too. This has been one of the most enjoyable threads on here in awhile IMO. I've learned a lot about mame development that I never knew before. I think I finally get why the games are playable! I was always a little confused about that as just calling it "a side effect" seemed a little vague to me.

And to people demanding things be a certain way in mame and bashing Haze: COME ON! You've gotten access to a ton of very playable emulated games for free thanks to a lot of hard working volunteers. Almost everything in mame from the classics era through the late 90's plays good to excellent. Sure mame isn't perfect. It never will be. Nothing in life ever is or ever will be. Just relax and play some games. If you really want things to be perfect, seek out the original hardware. Unless we're talking something obscure, I would think most original PCBs and controls are not that hard to find if you're willing to pay.

Again there has been a strong shift in attitude here over the years, from when people were grateful whenever MAME emulated anything, to simply *expecting* MAME to emulate everything.  I think this attitude might also be putting people off.

Yep, it's part of a big problem in our society I'm afraid. It used to be that if you went out of your way to give people something good, they'd be thrilled and love you for it. Now they're like, "Is that it? I want something better. MAKE IT BETTER!!!" Don't let it discourage you Haze. I appreciate your long posts explaining things. Some people are just going to read them and then say, "but...but...I WANT WHAT I WANT!" Not a lot you can do to change people's minds when they just don't listen and don't get it. I've personally given up trying to deal with these kinds of folks in my own life. I'll explain something to someone once or twice, and if they're still angry and don't get it, I give up.

Whaddya gonna do?

[Haze]

Yep, it's part of a big problem in our society I'm afraid. It used to be that if you went out of your way to give people something good, they'd be thrilled and love you for it. Now they're like, "Is that it? I want something better. MAKE IT BETTER!!!" Don't let it discourage you Haze.

I can deal with it.  It might put off new developers tho.

From what I'm told good old 'lets collect all the bad dumps with our goodtools' Cowering has ruined any potential MAME/MESS merged anyway by being his usual kiddie self and throwing his toys out the pram (he hosts the MESS SVN and makes sporadic contributions to the project so can't be entirely ignored sadly)  I can only see having further detrimental effects on the project.  The current separation really is a roadblock in cases where emulation of shared components needs to be improved which is an area needing ever increasing attention.  To work on something you really want all the resources and test cases to improve it and ensure you don't break anything.

It seems that for everything I try to do, or set into motion to improve things some ego gets in the way somewhere and stops it for no real technical reason.  To a degree this is also responsible for the state of things now.  Having people involved in the project who are willing to stand in the way of real progress for their own personal benefit and the benefit of nobody else is never going to help.

I know a fair number of people don't like me that much for taking a tough line with things, but I've always tried to simply make sure progress is made rather than egos stroked.  People who do care about the project will contribute anyway, people who only care about themselves are usually the replaceable ones.

[Xiaou2]

 

This is the very same point X2 can't seem to understand.  MAME documents what it can, but also MUST remain accessible in order to progress this documentation.

 Nope.  I understand it.  Its you who thinks in Black and White.
As I said, and I repeat... there is no GOOD reason why 720 cant be controlled by
BOTH an Original Controller, and the HACKED Analog Joystick.  Just like just about
ANY other game in mame which supports MULTIPLE methods of controls.

 And following your reply about general usability... it turns out that to select music in Superhangon, you need to use the brake.  However, the Arcade brake assembly had two switches in it... which means that one has to be on while the other is off, and vise versa. This is not typical to be able to access with gamepad or keyboard input... and even to build a custom controller, was a pain in the Butt.  Yet mame makes no effort to make that music easily selectable/accessible.

 Why? As was told to me, that they will not alter the way that the game works from the way it worked in the arcade hardware.   Which is Understandable.  But why not make a cheat/hack to be able to bypass it for the standard users... like 99% of all other cases?

 As seem from all of these examples... its very easily clear that Mames stance is based on Personal Preferences from the Developer.  The Devs who spout their Holy values, are spewing Hypocritical BS that they dont even follow.

 Every time Ive pinned Haze about these Glaring Inconsistencies, he has shifted his stance... and tried to dodge the reality.  Every time I back him into a corner, he realized Im correct and that he cant lie his way out of it.. or BS me, he finally shifts the blame to another Dev.  Yet all the while, he was 100% solidly attacking, thru the entire process.

 Haze knows that the Hack to make 720 work is absolute CRAP.  He personally would have never bowed to user request to make it Playable by adding such a gross coding hack... cause Haze is selfish, and really does not care if anyone else enjoys the fruits... so long as he gets His.  (anyone who has read Hazes past comments would know this)  He is very much Black and White, and you could probably call him an OCD Coder, as code has to be "just so" for it to be acceptable in his mind.
 
 Aaron did the users a very nice thing by making 720 at least sorta playable with the Analog hack.  However, to disable the ability to use correct controls is completely Wrong.  He SHOULD know this. He should Fix it. Period.  As said, there is no good reasons why multiple input methods shouldnt be available.

 Mame is about Preserving games. They word it as preserving mere circuit boards. But thats a crock, and everyone knows it.  To PROPERLY preserve a game, means that game has to be experienced the same way it was DESIGNED TO BE EXPERIENCED!!!  This SHOULD include every aspect, from gameplay, PROPER control methods, controller Documentation/Specs, cabinet art, cabinet dimensions, internal artwork, history development notes/stories, and much much more.  If these things are NOT being Documented... then you are NOT PRESERVING A GAME.
 
 Instead, you are picking what You think is important... such as Documenting all the aspects of a Classic cars engine, to the degree that you could easily re-fabricate it... but have No knowledge of the cars interior, fabric, accurate body shape, controls, suspension, ect.   We all know that the Engine is very important, as without it, the car will never move.  However, a car is much more than the engine. The first thing you experience is the beauty of the shape of the car.  Which leads to getting into the car, and experiencing the internal beauty and controls.  Which leads to the handling of the car, thru its suspension aspects/controls, which are all built around the engine.  Every aspect IS important.

 Just as anyone who has ever experienced an Arcade, has immediately been excited by the Mere look of the artwork and cabinet shapes.  Next being the actual original controls and gameplay.  Which of course wouldnt be possible without the games PCB engine.   The entire experience needs to be preserved 100%... or you are not Preserving it at all.

 Imagine, In the future, they may have a museum where every machine is available to PLAY... but most of the cabinets will be Blank, generically shaped, with no artwork, missing artwork, or artwork that is painfully low-res due to low quality pictures being used as sources. A real dismal mess.

  Controls?  Many controllers may be missing... due to historical documents being lacking, missing, and inaccurate. Thus anyone walking up to play the game 720, for example, will try to mess with an analog stick that they thought might do the trick... and makes the game play completely wrong.  Not as was designed and balanced. Not accurate at all.

 Mechanical games?  Discrete Circuit Games?  More than likely lost forever...


 But its not just about the Future. Its about Now.  I school new generation gamers on Old-School games all the time.  And when I do so, I take them to real machines, or a mame setup with the Accurate Arcade controls, so that they experience them correctly.

 In a simple example, the kid who I forced to play Robotron... went from nasty comments about the look/age... to ecstatic giggles of joy as he got Hooked.  Yet when trying it on his xbox, turned it off in 5 min cause the control was all wrong, and messed up the entire gameplay.  Even though he was a FPS kinda guy, a new-Gen kid...  he could immediately discern the game wasnt the same without the correct controls.  Let alone the Look of the game, and missing the specialized cabinet.

 720?  Forget it.  Its 1000x worse in control than Robotrons leaf-switch joy situation.  Theres no way in hell you can move an analog joystick fast enough to do major spin tricks.  Analogs travel in too wide an Ark, have too much spring resistance, and many other issues... that all add up to not being able to experience the game as it was intended and designed.  Meaning... that its Not being preserved.

 To make the New Gens "CARE" about these old Gems (to keep them alive, and further preservation efforts before its too late) ... us Old guys have to start Schooling them.  And we are Not going to be able to school them, if we cant for example, hook up our mame cabinets and fire up a game with a real controller attacked to it.

 AND, the more demand there is for people wanting to play a game with a certain specialized controller.. the more likely there will be someone who will re-produce it... which helps both the Original collectors fix their existing machines... as well as gets more controllers out there to extend their overall lifetime existences - further keeping them from becoming completely lost/extinct.

 Imagine if Mame had an option for outputting Vectors to a real vector monitor.  Its very possible that the demand for vector monitors would be so much higher, that it would be more than worthwhile for a huge production run could be made.  Because it has not been done, by now, it "Might" be too late for that to even happen... as there might be only 1 or 2 tube Mfgs left.

---

 Edit: And Ill add something about Hording.  I myself spent a lot of time and money to get a real TX-1 machine.  I Saved it from an Op who told me he only kept it cause he was considering hacking it into some other driver/machine.  It cost me a huge bundle of money, and I had to drive 600 miles total in a uhaul to get it back. The game was not working... so I bought several PCB sets online in hopes.  I finally got it to work with some help... and it was amazing.

 In the process, I got Bashed for buying a PCB for under $100 away from a Dev. Whom I never knew was bidding.  Then I got bashed for not sending the boards half way across the world to an anonymous Jerk, asap, with no assurance it would Ever come back... let alone come back working. (and he was unwilling to repair the boards if the were broke.. nor would assure a quick turn-around)

 AND, while I wanted it to go to mame, I knew that it Never would be the same, because theres no option for surround sound (4 speakers in tx1) in mame.. as well as no option for a real arcade Shifter... making it feel / play pathetic (toggle button only)... that I was in No hurry to destroy the chance to play it correctly for myself and friends.

 Had mame supported those very features, I would have been a lot more conductive to sending it in a much more timely fashion.

 Eventually, I got a buddy to dump the remaining 2 roms.. but they were not needed, as were duplicates.

 But the points remain... that if you want to get more collectors/hoarders onboard with mame, start by getting dumpers in other parts of the world (less distance to travel w/ less shipping costs) who arnt such jerks... and who are not so Paranoid as to be anonymous.  Get full channel sound working as it SHOULD. Get shifters working As they Should.  Etc.

 It wont solve every case, but it will end up getting more rare pcbs sent in. Thats a Fact.

[Hoopz]

Nope.  I understand it.  Its you who thinks in Black and White.

 

He should Fix it. Period. 

Pot, meet kettle.

[Haze]

blah blah blah

blah blah blah, more stuff about how you think decisions are made when really you know nothing
blah blah blah, more blaming me for everything even when I have nothing to do with what you're complaining about
blah blah blah, more calling our statements outright lies
blah blah blah....

hint, you are not involved with the project, you haven't ever been involved with the project, you clearly have no concept or understanding of who makes decisions, or why decisions are made so stop trying to make out like the things you say are facts.

MAME currently has no clean run-time way to support what you want without just further confusing things.  Coding this would be a significant task, and not one which anybody wishes to undertake at this time.  As a result, the version of the code which offers the greatest accessibility is used.  As others have noted, people doing ports have made the same choices.  Nowhere in the mission statement is it specified that MAME will work with the original controls, this is not a priority.

Again you're making demands that MameDev should find some more dumpers.  Sure, it would help, but the entry requirements aren't cheap if you want to do a good job and be able to dump every chip you're going to encounter, and that's not to mention the required skills needed to carefully handle the boards, remove the chips, reattach things so that they work again, provide good quality videos, scans, run tests.  The more specialist the task, the harder it gets to find somebody, there is only one single guy willing to decap MCUs for us.  This isn't just stuff anybody can pick up and do, it requires serious commitment, experience, and outlay as well as space to store all the PCBs, equipment, and possibly a workshop to do the serious PCB work.  How about you do something?  Oh wait.. too much to ask, as always.

Quick turnarounds can't be guaranteed.  It's a good thing Guru kept hold of that Godzilla PCB because the graphic dumps were half size, but we didn't know this until it started doing something in the driver, which has required in total 10+ years of work.  Now we can also ask for reference videos of specific parts of the game that are causing problems in the emulation.  Re-sourcing the PCB would have been difficult.  Actually getting this stuff right and the hardware understood is preserving it, the controls can be fiddled with and changed without consequence at any time in the future by anybody who has a specific need.  If the actual EMULATION of something is broken it won't matter what freaking controls you give it and most people will find that a lot harder to fix that than fiddling with the input ports.

zzzzz

[shateredsoul]

I believe Xiaou should make me a free arcade right now! Where we could all go play and eat pizza for free. But why hasn't he? because he's selfish and only cares about himself. He only thinks about what he wants, his arcade and not what we need. If Xiaou wasn't selfish he would do it. plain and simple.


 

[danny_galaga]

I can't remember what this thread was about any more. Apparently every thing is just dandy at the MAME house. End of argument 

[ark_ader]

.

[Haze]

What is wrong with 720 again?  I personally do not play it, as I thought it was crap when it was out in the arcades...

It was a bit crap actually.. the ports were more fun even if less impressive graphically.  Bit of a credit eater.

Perhaps Haze would like to offer a few classes to budding coders on how to write drivers on his website.

Aaron has tried this a few times, but the problem is, especially with his constant changing of the codebase and renaming of simple things, the guides go out of date very quickly.

Somehow any such guide would have to be out of the context of MAME, but at the same time teach the essential skills needed for MAME.  I'm not sure how this would be approached.

Many many years ago, before I emulated anything there were people running 'how to emulate' type tutorials, starting with Space Invaders, but to be honest, I didn't really learn anything from them, I learned what I know through playing with the source myself.

Xiaou2 needs to grow up and understand that Xiaou2 is a tiny cog in a massive machine called Mame, he alone cannot change things unless he is committed to make the change and commit to the project.

Haze is 100% correct in defense of Mame, but I am sure there are other ways to stimulate the minds of coders towards classic gaming projects.

It's odd, because Classic games are actually getting more exposure than ever as of late, as I've said, I think it's a more general problem with the current generation of programmers and why they do what they do.

[Dexter]

You do not have to be a programmer to contribute to the Mame Project.

Never said you do. However, dissing the efforts of volunteers who give up their time and abilities on a project you ultimately benefit from smacks of bad attitude and self entitlement.

But slamming someone because their name is not in a credit list is irrelevant. 

Its pretty obvious I'm 'slamming' him for his comments about the efforts of volunteers on a project from which our community (including him) benefits, not the fact he's not a developer. I did, however, point out the fact that he's not really in a position to be calling the effort of the experts 'half-assed' when he can contribute nothing in this area himself.

Would you consider those who donate towards purchases of boards for the project, not involved?  What about those who archive the artwork, documenting the history?  Should these people not have a right to make a point about the project?

Absolutely. Should they have a say in the development and implementation of various aspects of MAME if they lack the necessary skillsets? No.

In other words, should the MAME project allow 100 xaiou2s, each with different views on how things should be done, to be 'involved' in the direction the project takes, all while they're badmouthing the efforts of the people who actually know what they're doing? Think development is slow now??

Disrespecting the efforts of volunteers who can do ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- you can't isn't 'making a point'. Especially when you've more than likely received a lot of free entertainment from those efforts. It comes across like a poor little rich girl bitching cos daddy was late paying off her credit card bill this month. Got a problem with it sweetheart? Pay your own damn bill, or in the context of this thread, develop your own damn emulator.

[CheffoJeffo]

100 xaiou2s