the state of mame

[Derrick Renaud]

But we get all this grief because X2 couldn't keep his yap shut on the Mame World board, and now we are experiencing act 2 on this board....

More correctly because X2 derailed the MAMEworld threads and this thread.  None of them started out as 720 threads.  

As for adding better real control support for shifters, direct snk rotary support, etc....  X2 has been told over, and over, and over, again that no current Dev has interest in doing so.  We are not his to command.  BUT (some random caps ) if someone codes up some quality code, send it in for discussion.

[Vigo]

The random capital lettres drive me nuts, I cant even read any more of this tripe. 

I don't See the Problem Here, capital Letters Are my Friend.

I skipped over any comment from X2 a long time ago....how someone can ---smurfette--- about 720 controls for weeks straight is something I can't comprehend. I got the point the first time, X2....dedicated controller support.  Yep, that would be nice. You didn't have to write a book about it. 

[Xiaou2]

You know that you live in a city where there is a museum that is doing that, right ? 

 Of course.  I was very privileged to meet Jeff Anderson right before the sales to the Museum... and Ive both visited the Museum frequently, as well as was privy to both the basement as well as the upstairs collections that are not on public display.
(Thanks C.H.E.G.)

 The problems with Strong, is that the space allocated to it is too limited... and thus the titles available are limited.  Even when they dedicated a much larger space to it... some of their title choices were a bit weak. IE: There was a sitdown G-lock.. but no SD Outrun... which would have gained more return visits.

 Also, its probably impossible that every game is going to get such a treatment, or be accessible to the public without having to travel half way around the world to experience all these titles... Let alone going there to play a game, and finding out that its Out of Service.

Did you really just suggest that MAME support EM games ?

 Multiple Arcade Machines.  Pins and Mechanical games were the earliest historical Arcade Machines.

 Yes, I realize the depth and insanity of such a move.  But, how great would it be,
for a high-standard approach to preserving these incredible titles...

Very possibly the worst analogy ever.  There is one Mona Lisa.  Doing what you describe would permanently destroy it.  The MAME Team does no such thing.  They are preserving the parts they feel the most strongly about.

 The Analogy is pretty much like the Hotdog Stew.  The gameplay  " IS " Destroyed when you do not use the intended controller.  And as for destruction of history, that is left for time.  In time, when someone fires up mame to see how 720, Sinistar..etc.. worked... they will not only be given the wrong control information... but they will experience the game in a way that was never intended.

 The analogy is more symbolic to the individuals experience 'now'.  We all cant experience sitting in and driving a vintage Classic Car.  However, if its possible to recreate that experience... then great. But to alter that experience by stripping out a manual shifter to an automatic... is not true preservation or correct representation.  Responsibly speaking, its a very bad thing to do, to alter History based on Personal opinion.

 Personal Opinion often does not equate to "Preservation".

[Xiaou2]

Just discovered 720 on a multicade machine at a local truck stop (Rogers, MN, it was set to freeplay!) Back in the day, I could put in my 50 cents and play for 20 minutes. Unfortunately it was a standard joystick (in Rogers) so I couldn't get all the fancy moves, especially on the ramp screen. But I have the blister on my left middle finger to prove that I played!

(PS: Why didn't you upgrade any more of your equipment? You can get three upgrades on a new level.)
BumwhiffleZoopstanky 10 months ago

without that rotary joystick it's hard to pull off those spin jumps..thats why any emulation or remake of this game is no match to the origanal arcade in the 80's...well done..you are a good player.
nintendoneil 11 months ago

have this on an emulator disc. It's impossible to play with a standard controller
Djclyve 3 years ago

Dont bother unplayable on it...
Schush 3 years ago

how the f*** do u configure it in mame?
rainxxxx 3 years ago

[Rick]

I have no interest in authentic controls, so I'm going to pull an X2 and pretend I have authority to say, "MAME Devs, you're off the hook."

(...and thank you for not throwing your hands up in disgust and saying, "You know what? NOBODY is coding MAME any further. Suck it, X2."

Well, thanks for not saying the first part, anyway.

[Mikezilla]

The random capital lettres drive me nuts, I cant even read any more of this tripe. 

I don't See the Problem Here, capital Letters Are my Friend.

I skipped over any comment from X2 a long time ago....how someone can ---smurfette--- about 720 controls for weeks straight is something I can't comprehend. I got the point the first time, X2....dedicated controller support.  Yep, that would be nice. You didn't have to write a book about it. 

Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- that was funny! 

Totally agree. Yawnfest 2011

[abaraba]

Make a system that is handled by the Core UI; Input; Input Port code that can select between real and fake controls. 

Seriously, start MAME and have a look, it's all already there.

There is no need for "real" and "fake", one is simply mapping of input to analog stick and the other is mapping to mouse, just like with all the other games. Piece of code handling input via analog port has nothing to do with keyboard and mouse handling code.

Then change the Input port code in the drivers to use it.  The UI would allow you to select the real control or a fake control that would call a driver function to modify the data.

It's all already there, except it's called "mouse" and "analog", not "real" and "fake".

[RandyT]

Being able to play crummy old arcade games on a computer is more than I could ever imagine?

 
 
Wow.

Ever hear of the concept of "context"?  The MAMEDevs have given more to the resurrection and preservation of the these old games than X, and apparently yourself, could ever imagine.  If you haven't done it yourself, you have no frame of reference for the sweat and tears (hopefully no blood) that it took to get this project where it is.

Also, if you think the old games are "crummy", you are obviously trolling the wrong forums.  Some people think knocking a steel ball around on a gaily decorated board full of switches and lights is a pointless endeavor as well (not me, I wouldn't trade my fully restored "High Speed" for anything.)  So the whole "glass houses" thing should probably be considered when you make statements like that one.

The Analogy is pretty much like the Hotdog Stew.

I'm taking you to mean that it is ridiculous and no-one should make it?

The gameplay  " IS " Destroyed when you do not use the intended controller.  And as for destruction of history, that is left for time.  In time, when someone fires up mame to see how 720, Sinistar..etc.. worked... they will not only be given the wrong control information... but they will experience the game in a way that was never intended.

 The analogy is more symbolic to the individuals experience 'now'.  We all cant experience sitting in and driving a vintage Classic Car.  However, if its possible to recreate that experience... then great. But to alter that experience by stripping out a manual shifter to an automatic... is not true preservation or correct representation.  Responsibly speaking, its a very bad thing to do, to alter History based on Personal opinion.

No, Steve, nothing is destroyed.  It's all still there, just the way you remember it.  Nobody has incinerated those machines, or their controls (well, they might have, but it wasn't the people you keep screaming at.)  No king of any land has formally decreed that the only 720 that shall ever be played or remembered shall be the one in MAME.  The controls for 720 are documented in many places on the web, and on the still existing original machines as well. The way the control interacts with the original code is also still present.  There is simply no way for Joe 12-pack (times are rough) to get to them.  He needs to step away from the instant gratification box and learn to do a little coding.  That is not the same as destroying anything, unless you are counting your own personal "treasured memories" when you boot MAME with your original 720 controller in your hand, expecting it to simply work because you are you.

There is no PC analog for this control, in its original form.  It's not a mouse, but a superset of a mouse.  It's a mouse+, with the + being something that cannot be achieved with common PC analogs.  So the current control scheme, via the translation layer, is assigned to the common PC controls that will actually allow one to test/play the game, without the magic original control.  You are clamoring for an option to essentially hack in support for something that you, and very few others, own, or likely ever will, at the expense of convoluting the code and making it less manageable.  I personally think they should map the index pulse to a digital input and call it a day, and have suggested it in the past.  But they consider that a "hack", so I accept their view.  It is their project, after all, not yours.  Your realistic options are to maintain your own build, which they graciously allow you to do, or buy an original machine.  You shouldn't be surprised when anything other than that is called out for what it is.  At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if your relentless hammering on them has kept something like what I suggested from being added, just to keep you miserable.

Personal Opinion often does not equate to "Preservation".

It also does not often equate to "fact".  One can argue that the cabinet dimensions, wiring schematics, artwork and myriad other properties of the cabinet are equally as important.  But I don't see you expecting the MAME Team to "preserve" those aspects, as well you shouldn't because those are also not included in the project goals.

[abaraba]

Xiaou, do you want to solve the problem, or what?


I said IT WORKS!! Hello?!?!!!!

I confirmed both encoder inputs work in mame 131, will _you now try it or what?

[Hoopz]

Xiaou, do you want to solve the problem, or what?


I said IT WORKS!! Hello?!?!!!!

I confirmed both encoder inputs work in mame 131, will _you now try it or what?

You, sir, may be a bigger idiot than certain others around here.  You do understand why no one is bothering to pay attention to you, right?  Seriously, have to know that don't you?  Please tell me you understand.

Never mind, I honestly believe you don't know.  That, in itself, may be the biggest source of pure idiocy on the entire interwebs.   

[abaraba]

There is no PC analog for this control, in its original form.  It's not a mouse, but a superset of a mouse.  It's a mouse+, with the + being something that cannot be achieved with common PC analogs.

It's translates to plain PC mouse just as arcade trackball, only difference is that one of the wheels has only two holes, but code only needs to forward the same type of data to virtual PCB pins as if it was trackball game, then the emulated game code itself does everything else.

So the current control scheme, via the translation layer, is assigned to the common PC controls that will actually allow one to test/play the game, without the magic original control.  You are clamoring for an option to essentially hack in support for something...

It's all already there, it all works just fine.

[RandyT]

It's translates to plain PC mouse just as arcade trackball, only difference is that one of the wheels has only two holes, but code only needs to forward the same type of data to virtual PCB pins as if it was trackball game, then the emulated game code itself does everything else.

But the point is that you could not possibly use a trackball or mouse (common PC analogs) to properly control the game with this active. On-screen action would be absolutely haywire.  But I do see a point in suggesting that the index wheel be mapped to the Y-Axis and allowing the user to unmap that axis if they can't use it.  But again, if the devs don't want it implemented in that form, there's little one can do but to accept it or modify it as a custom build.  Or, do it in such a way that they find the change acceptable for inclusion.

It's all already there, it all works just fine.

That would be seriously funny if true.  But I'm guessing it's not, based on the feedback about the issue in this thread.

[abaraba]

That would be seriously funny if true.  But I'm guessing it's not, based on the feedback about the issue in this thread.

[DELETED]

I was wrong about these, this is the truth:
- it does not work properly with MAME, I was fooled by analog hack
- it never worked properly with both encoders in any version of MAME

Sorry for confusion, mouse hack + laptop trackpad indeed can produce illusion that it works. I now got ball-mouse to test axes separately and precisely, and also PS2 analog pad to test 'analog hack' too.

Anyway, I got it working, more about it in the other thread about 720.

Can support for authentic controller and analog hack exist together? Of course they can!

But the point is that you could not possibly use a trackball or mouse (common PC analogs) to properly control the game with this active. On-screen action would be absolutely haywire.

I see you are suggesting input devices would "interfere" with each other, but I do not see why, especially if you do not have analog joysticks plugged in at all?

What mouse handling routine has to do with analog stick or keyboard handling routine? No keyboard hack interferes with any of the original inputs in any other game. Mouse hack to control Star Wars has nothing to with proper data forwarding taking place when input is handled via analog input handling code.

But I do see a point in suggesting that the index wheel be mapped to the Y-Axis and allowing the user to unmap that axis if they can't use it. But again, if the devs don't want it implemented in that form, there's little one can do but to accept it or modify it as a custom build.

They kind of went from "we don't care to work on it", to "we do not want changes" accompanied with no good reason, but assumption that my changes would do "something bad" to the rest of the code.

[Xiaou2]

at the expense of convoluting the code and making it less manageable.

 Everyone knows this is an Excuse.  And not a good one at that.  I find it hard to believe a man of your intelligence would buy into it.  Or maybe your just stroking egos here. Trust me, it does not work with these guys.  It only makes them feel more "Right" in their messed up beliefs...   

 Like how Haze thinks that Ports of the originals are better... yet when doing 10 seconds of research on something like Marble Madness Ports without a Trackball... will yield tons of comments saying that the port SUCKS compared to the real deal.  And how in less than 60 seconds, I was able to find several pages and quotes about how ports and mames 720 driver, are not even close to being playable compared to the real machine.

 The reason why Haze thinks ports are better, is because hes Ignorant... and is a person who does not enjoy nor can handle a physical / game challenge.  This means that hacks which make a game easier, such as faster speed on the Ball in Marble Madness, or getting 2 rotations for one spin on a port of 720... are considered Better to him.  Yet everyone else who wants / likes / expects a challenge when playing... has to suffer, because of his ignorance in butchering the original coders long and hard work of making challenging gameplay.

I personally think they should map the index pulse to a digital input and call it a day, and have suggested it in the past.  But they consider that a "hack"

 So, its OK to completely wipe out the original controller with a Hack, but not ok to add a tiny hack to allow calibration?   Thats beyond intelligence.  That has to do with Personal Ego minded reasons.  Much like everything discussed... its not a matter of challenge or accuracy.  Its a matter of Personal Opinions... which is very sad indeed...  and does not represent a positive position on Preservation, or the Team at all.

You shouldn't be surprised when anything other than that is called out for what it is.  At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if your relentless hammering on them has kept something like what I suggested from being added, just to keep you miserable.

 Firstly, we know thats untrue, because you suggested it before my hammering and was denied.

 But, actually, thats exactly the point.  The Devs are preserving and hacking based on Personal opinions.  Many of them have Never once played a real machine, and do not fully value these creations... hence such decisions.  Giles stood there at CAX preaching to a room full of classic fans that DO appreciate the games in their entirety... about what?  About how to run a project the way you want to run a project!  Basically slapping all those peoples faces for caring about how a game like 720 should be controlled, or how Spy Hunter should have a shifter... or how TX-1 should have 4 channel sound...etc.   Completely Clueless?  Or just being a D***?
Or both?

 Is it because he does not have a 2nd sound card?  Needs some more speakers? We can get them.  No?  Ahh, I know... Its cause he does not give a ratts butt.

 Which is why Mame needs someone who Does care about these games in Full, not in PARTS via "Opinion"... and or needs someone who will accept money to get these Important things Into official builds. 

 Everyone knows that Stand-Alone branches are Impossible to maintain to the ever changing current code base. Which is pretty much another reason why Devs suggest it... cause they know its futile.  Once the changes are in... it wont take much to maintain them officially... just like every other control / interface that already works and is maintained just fine to date. (including the gross hacks mame has decided to institute already)

 Its painfully Obvious that the new gen programmers just dont get it.
If only we could find some Old Skoolers to show them up...

[ErikRuud]

 Its painfully Obvious that the new gen programmers just dont get it.
If only we could find some Old Skoolers to show them up...

According to you we are too anti-social to be worth anything.

Funny, cause Ive met more Punk Elitist Programmers/Techies with Poor attitudes, Anger/Temper Issues, Arrogant, Self Absorbed, etc.. than the typical EndUser/Collector/Gameplayer.   Ahh, but generalizations are great arnt they?

 Generally speaking, Programmers/Techs have poor social skills. (which is why they enjoy talking to a computer for Hours instead of real people) They dont get along too well with others, and many times have no patience for people they feel are beneath them. (people who cant do what they do - but "SHOULD" be able to  /sarcasm    . . . )

[sjbaines]

First, I want to say a huge thanks to the MAME team for what they have accomplished - extremely well done, very professional, and very much appreciated (especially the 'no hacks' attitude).
I'm working on my first cab now, and very much looking forward to reliving a part of my youth with it, and if it weren't for MAME, it wouldn't be happening.

I can't believe the amount of hate MAME gets from, or the attitude of, some of its users.

For those few for whom MAME is fundamentally flawed unless they can connect their authentic 720 joystick, is there anything you need that isn't on this page (2nd result from googling 'mame 720'):
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php
Not only does the guy give very detailed information on how he did it, he even provides a pre-built modified version of MAME with the support compiled in.

If the complaint is that this isn't in core MAME, then:
1. It's already been explained multiple times why this is the case, and
2. Why does it matter whether it is in core MAME or not?

Yes, yes, 'Arcade Authenticity', 'As It Was Meant To Be Played', etc, etc, etc, etc.
But even if it was in MAME as standard, you'd still obviously need to supply and interface the controller yourself.
Since you need to go to the effort of interfacing it, why is it a big deal if applying a small MAME patch is part of the process?

That way, anyone out there who actually has one of those controllers can use it, but the overwhelming majority that don't are unaffected.

[abaraba]

First, I want to say a huge thanks to the MAME team for what they have accomplished - extremely well done, very professional, and very much appreciated (especially the 'no hacks' attitude).

...

I would normally agree with you, it's only this one particular case, as far as I want to care right now, where the sides are flipped around. It is exactly this "no hack" attitude we are arguing about, so I hope you will appreciate to know exactly how things are, let me show you what "hack" is:


From current MAME 141, this is only one relevant function in the whole story - atarisy2.c:

Code: [Select]

static READ8_HANDLER( leta_r )
{
static const char *const letanames[] = { "LETA0", "LETA1", "LETA2", "LETA3" };
atarisy2_state *state = space->machine->driver_data<atarisy2_state>();

    if (state->pedal_count == -1)   /* 720 */
{
/* special thanks to MAME Analog+ for the mapping code */
switch (offset & 3)
{
case 0:
case 1:
{
static double last_angle;
static int rotations;

int analogx = input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA0") - 128;
int analogy = input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA1") - 128;
double angle;

/* if the joystick is centered, leave the rest of this alone */
angle = last_angle;
if (analogx < -32 || analogx > 32 || analogy < -32 || analogy > 32)
angle = atan2((double)analogx, (double)analogy) * 360 / (2 * M_PI);

/* detect when we pass the 0 point in either direction */
if (last_angle < -90 && angle > 90)
rotations--;
else if (last_angle > 90 && angle < -90)
rotations++;
last_angle = angle;

/* offset 0 returns 0xff when the controller blocks one of two gaps */
if ((offset & 3) == 0)
{
/* original controller had two gaps 10 degrees apart, each 2.5 degrees wide */
/* we fake it a little to make it possible to hit the zeroed state with a digital controller */
return (angle >= -5.0 && angle <= 5.0) ? 0xff : 0x00;
}

/* offset 1 returns dial value; 144 units = 1 full rotation */
else
{
/* take the rotations * 144 plus the current angle */
return (rotations * 144 + (int)(angle * 144.0 / 360.0)) & 0xff;
}
break;
}
case 2: return 0xff;
case 3: return 0xff;
}
}
return input_port_read(space->machine, letanames[offset & 3]);
}

Note the size and comments above. That's how "hack" looks like.


Now, this below is that same function but without any hacks, and enabled for both encoder inputs so it can handle authentic controller properly. I simply just forward input further to emulated game without any fiddling with the data:

Code: [Select]

static READ8_HANDLER( leta_r ){
   static const char *const letanames[] = { "LETA0", "LETA1", "LETA2", "LETA3" };
   atarisy2_state *state = space->machine->driver_data<atarisy2_state>();

if(state->pedal_count == -1)   /* 720 */
{
switch (offset & 3)
{
case 0: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA1") & 0xff;
case 1: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA0") & 0xff;
case 2: return 0xff;
case 3: return 0xff;
}
}
   return input_port_read(space->machine, letanames[offset & 3]);
}

To make both of these functions exist together without interfering all we need is to find some variable to tell us which device is actually mapped, or enabled at the moment, and execute appropriate code accordingly. That's all there is to it, and it's all ready to go in mainstream MAME.

[ErikRuud]

For those few for whom MAME is fundamentally flawed unless they can connect their authentic 720 joystick, is there anything you need that isn't on this page (2nd result from googling 'mame 720'):
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php
Not only does the guy give very detailed information on how he did it, he even provides a pre-built modified version of MAME with the support compiled in.

Wow!  I should have taken a better look at that page when it was mentioned earlier in this thread.  That guy has the perfect attitude.

Read the first paragraph on the home page. 

5 years ago Aaron Giles created a MAME driver that enabled us all to play the actual arcade version of 720 degrees (one of my favorite arcade games) on the home computer. The only problem was that the game used a unique joystick controller which meant that playing the game with a mouse or a joystick didn't work very well. I was very disappointed then, and waited for it to be fixed... And waited... And waited... Eventually, I realized that there was no reason for me not to make it work right myself, so I created this page and got to work.

Then read the last sentence in the first paragraph again. 

Eventually, I realized that there was no reason for me not to make it work right myself, so I created this page and got to work.

That is how it should be. 

I love Tail Gunner. I was disappointed that it did not have sound. I found a site that explained how to add sound thanks to ASTGL (I can't locate his page anymore).  That gave me sound, but not the authentic sounds. Then I found Peter Hirschberg's site and he was gracious enough to send me recordings from his original Tail Gunner 2 cabinet. Now I could play Tail Gunner with the sound that I remember.  I submitted it to the MAME dev team and it became an official part of MAME.  If the MAMEDev team had rejected my change, I would have just posted what I did on my own site in case someone else wanted to use it. 

Again, that is how it should be.

[BadMouth]

abaraba, don't you think you should give Paul Olson just a tiny sliver of credit for modifying that driver to begin with?

Also, be careful about jumping the gun again and making claims before it has been properly tested.

sigh, I really was trying to avoid posting on this thread....

[Derrick Renaud]

Now, this below is that same function but without any hacks, and enabled for both encoder inputs so it can handle authentic controller properly. I simply just forward input further to emulated game without any fiddling with the data:

Code: [Select]

static READ8_HANDLER( leta_r ){
   static const char *const letanames[] = { "LETA0", "LETA1", "LETA2", "LETA3" };
   atarisy2_state *state = space->machine->driver_data<atarisy2_state>();

if(state->pedal_count == -1)   /* 720 */
{
switch (offset & 3)
{
case 0: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA1") & 0xff;
case 1: return input_port_read(space->machine, "LETA0") & 0xff;
case 2: return 0xff;
case 3: return 0xff;
}
}
   return input_port_read(space->machine, letanames[offset & 3]);
}

To make both of these functions exist together without interfering all we need is to find some variable to tell us which device is actually mapped, or enabled at the moment, and execute appropriate code accordingly. That's all there is to it, and it's all ready to go in mainstream MAME.

Really, wow.  You are as correct now as you were when you said that using a real 720 control currently works in MAME.  Do you think maybe, possibly, you might want to change the Input ports too?  But what do I know.

Nice of you all to keep disregarding facts and just spout forth your current beliefs of the second.  All the while saying people who actually work on the code know nothing.  Fascinating really.
 

Not to mention, you have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere, so removing the current code does not make an acceptable solution.  Keep trying.

BTW, by changing/adding about 10 lines of code you could have both versions fake/real that exist in parallel and automatically uses whichever control you are using.  Well maybe not.  Remember I've been told I know nothing and am not a programmer.  See if all you with the real knowledge can figure out how.


Note: when I say you all, I just mean the 2 or 3 vocal annoying ones.  Not everyone on this forum.  Some are quite helpfull.

[abaraba]

Really, wow.  You are as correct now as you were when you said that using a real 720 control currently works in MAME.  Do you think maybe, possibly, you might want to change the Input ports too?  But what do I know.

No, Input ports do not need to be set, apart from small adjustments, and is irrelevant for the point I made.

You know very little, but please keep talking as I'm now wondering if you know anything at all.

Not to mention, you have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere, so removing the current code does not make an acceptable solution.  Keep trying.

Analog hack is buggy, it does not work properly, orientation jumps all over the place and flickers, it's unplayable, embarrassing really, however it works fine for laptops where you "draw circles" over mouse touchpad.

BTW, by changing/adding about 10 lines of code you could have both versions fake/real that exist in parallel and automatically uses whichever control you are using.  Well maybe not.  Remember I've been told I know nothing and am not a programmer.  See if all you with the real knowledge can figure out how.

Are you drunk? That is my argument, that's what I have been telling you, and told you again in that last paragraph you quoted, and explained exactly what and how. Whoever wrote that hack obviously did not realize what two of us now agree about. -- Are you the one who can decline my submission? Do you really have any say in that?

[Derrick Renaud]

Really, wow.  You are as correct now as you were when you said that using a real 720 control currently works in MAME.  Do you think maybe, possibly, you might want to change the Input ports too?  But what do I know.

No, Input ports do not need to be set, apart from small adjustments, and is irrelevant for the point I made.

You know very little, but please keep talking as I'm now wondering if you know anything at all.

Really?  In my world (which is bound by facts), I would want to change to current Ports from being absolute controls to relative.  Even the site you mentioned says so.
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php

But I'm probably wrong because I know nothing, even though I worked on MAME's input system.

Not to mention, you have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere, so removing the current code does not make an acceptable solution.  Keep trying.

Analog hack is buggy, it does not work properly, orientation jumps all over the place and flickers, it's unplayable, embarrassing really, however it works fine for laptops where you "draw circles" over mouse touchpad.

Let's all chant this line again.  "You have been told over and over and over and.... that the current fake control is not going anywhere."

BTW, by changing/adding about 10 lines of code you could have both versions fake/real that exist in parallel and automatically uses whichever control you are using.  Well maybe not.  Remember I've been told I know nothing and am not a programmer.  See if all you with the real knowledge can figure out how.

Are you drunk? That is my argument, that's what I have been telling you, and told you again in that last paragraph you quoted, and explained exactly what and how. Whoever wrote that hack obviously did not realize what two of us now agree about. -- Are you the one who can decline my submission? Do you really have any say in that?

I most certainly would decline any submission by you that is based on the wrong info you provide.

But if you read my last quote again about the 10 lines of code, take it as a challenge to code something properly.  This would then get us back on topic of getting new programmers into coding MAME.

[saint]

I get that you're passionate about the subject, and I dig a good technical discussion. It'd be great if the scene was further advanced as a result.

....

[DELETED]

my testing was lazy and I got fooled by analog hack, I was wrong - it does not work in MAME 131.

It works as BadMouth and Xiaou have described, and that would not work with authentic controller.

===============

I also dig that you manned up when you were wrong and said so, lots of folks wouldn't. You get props for that.

However...

You know very little, but please keep talking as I'm now wondering if you know anything at all.

Tone it the hell down or get the hell off my forums.

--- saint

[abaraba]

But if you read my last quote again about the 10 lines of code, take it as a challenge to code something properly.  This would then get us back on topic of getting new programmers into coding MAME.

It takes 2 lines of code.

I can not make sense of anything else you're saying.
The important thing is we agree both options can co-exist.

[abaraba]

Tone it the hell down or get the hell off my forums.

--- saint

I acknowledge. I am not aiming for insults, just arrogance, so to stay in the character.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

I acknowledge. I am not aiming for insults, just arrogance, so to stay in the character.

[Derrick Renaud]

But if you read my last quote again about the 10 lines of code, take it as a challenge to code something properly.  This would then get us back on topic of getting new programmers into coding MAME.

It takes 2 lines of code.

Let's see them.

I can not make sense of anything else you're saying.

I can't do the reading for you.  I told you to check the page you mentioned.
http://www.jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-arcadejoy.php

The current code defines the inputs as absolute. (IPT_AD_STICK_X)  You need to use relative inputs.

You need to read the web page where it says: "Then in the section, "INPUT_PORTS_START( 720 )" replace: Change LETA0 and LETA1 to:"

[Derrick Renaud]

I posted the steps needed to create the code for real/fake controls to coexist over in the 720 thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.msg1152192#msg1152192

Who wants to take the challenge?

[saint]

Tone it the hell down or get the hell off my forums.

--- saint

just arrogance, so to stay in the character.

Do not want.

[ErikRuud]

I posted the steps needed to create the code for real/fake controls to coexist over in the 720 thread.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=108516.msg1152192#msg1152192

Who wants to take the challenge?

I am actually interested in it for the technical challenge even though I couldn't care less about 720. I already know how I am going to modify my spinner to incorporate the second encoder wheel.

It may be a week or so before I can begin to work on it seriously though.

[RayB]

WHY THE HELL DOESN'T MAME SUPPORT PNEUMATIC BUTTONS IN STREET FIGHTER!>!?>!?>!??!?   

[ErikRuud]

It probably does, but we need Ultimarc and GGG to come out with USB force sensors before it can be truly authentic. 

[ErikRuud]

Not according to KLOV.  They were force sensitive.
http://www.arcade-museum.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9803

Miscellaneous
The dedicated versions of the game used special pneumatic controls that were connected directly to the game board via air hoses. Depending upon how hard the control was hit, the game would choose the type of hit the player character would perform. These controls wore out or would constantly require adjustment due to abuse.

[Bootay]

I say we get a dispute going on whether Mame supports original controls for Arm Champs II so me and my friends can break our arms. 

(I seriously had a friend who got his arm broken playing this game. I still tease him to this day. I guess it happens every so often though depending on your arms position and how much resistance the machine owner set because you can adjust it. I read an article about them pulling this and another arm wrestling machine out of places in Japan because they were breaking people's arms.) LOL

[RandyT]

Given that KLOV doesn't define how the game could "choose" and that the board has no interface at all on it to communicate with pneumatic hoses, pretty sure that was a blind mechanical device that shorted out inputs on the JAMMA connector.

If there were hoses and pneumatic switches, you can be sure that there was something other than a simple contact closure going on.  It would be utterly foolhardy to make something like that, when normal pushbuttons used for the previous 20 years would do it much more cheaply and reliably.

I'd love to see such a setup in existence.  I thought Ray was goofing when he mentioned it. 

[Bootay]

I played a Street Fighter with these buttons back when I was a teen. Either the machine I played was already faulty or the buttons weren't that responsive. It felt like punching bean bags. And you ended up paying more attention to hitting the buttons as hard as you could than actually playing, resulting in losing your ass. Although I was still a kid when I played. I think I would much rather play with the standard controls myself which is how I usually played it anyhow at the 711 by my house. heh

[sjbaines]

I say we get a dispute going on whether Mame supports original controls for Arm Champs II so me and my friends can break our arms.  

(I seriously had a friend who got his arm broken playing this game. I still tease him to this day. I guess it happens every so often though depending on your arms position and how much resistance the machine owner set because you can adjust it. I read an article about them pulling this and another arm wrestling machine out of places in Japan because they were breaking people's arms.) LOL

Apparently 'Sonic Blast Man' was breaking arms too - from KLOV:

Taito lost a class action suit for 50,000 to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission CPSC because of injuries sustained by players of ISonic Blast ManI. The CPSC alleges that between 1991 and 1994, Taito failed to report about 70 cases in which young players fractured or injured wrists and arms as a result of hitting the Blast Mans punching pad.

Funny video review of it in action (in MAME) here:

[Haze]

WHY THE HELL DOESN'T MAME SUPPORT PNEUMATIC BUTTONS IN STREET FIGHTER!>!?>!?>!??!?  

Technically it's handled with a 'hack' too, essentially for similar reasons, it's impossible to test otherwise.

Internally the game converts an analog input to be one of 3 different strengths, MAME just provides the correct value for each 'strength' and maps them as if it were buttons, there isn't really anything analog about the game logic.

The later set of the game just expects buttons.

I suppose X2 is going to say the original controller was revolutionary and it just doesn't play correctly without the hit pads tho, and that Capcom be damned for forcing everybody just use buttons on all their later fighting games so that weak people could play them.

Even Capcom realised the novelty controller was a gimmick ;-)

(Sonic Blastman etc. actually had a real analog input that scaled directly to your strength value in the game however, still a gimmick, but the game was a gimmick)

[ark_ader]

.

[Haze]

I say you are stoking a fire, when it should have been extinguished long ago.

What are we trying to achieve here after 11 pages?

Showing that 720 is far from the only case where devs will code things to make life easier for themselves ;-)

Showing that just because some arcade hardware devs designed some custom input device doesn't make it godly, untouchable and 'the way the game should be played' or even really a good idea at all ;-)

I should ask you more why you're posting utter tripe about MAME and lag on Mameworld, when you already know all the reasons.