the state of mame

[Hoopz]

I think it's pretty clear that the direction of Mame is set so anyone who wants (certain) changes has to go through another group other than Mamedev.  Haze (and Derrek) have stated how to make changes but it's not the answer that some people want to hear.  That's not the fault of Mamedev.  If you want changes, either put up (code, time or money to have someone do it for you) or shut up.

In reality, the whining from a few sounds exactly like the whining from children when they don't get their way.  My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine.  We need one here for a couple asshats, I mean d-bags since someone whines about asshats.   

[ark_ader]

I've deleted all my previous posts, except the first one and the recent exchange.

Now perhaps we can be at least civil to each other from now on. 

[Vigo]

I've spent the entire thread addressing peoples concerns.  He's just resorted to childish bull again.  Saint must have the tolerance of .. a saint ...

Well I've been addressing them in the sense of explaining them.  Dealing with the concerns.  Maybe it would be fairer to say I've been addressing the community.

The concerns have no real solution within the aims of the project tho, so nothing more can be done, so that is the reply given.

The opposite of addressing them would be to simply ignore everything that is posted, without giving a reason.  That just leads to people not understanding why things have been done tho.  I prefer people to be educated.  At least by explaining why decisions have been made as they have their concerns might become less when they see that the choices made were correct, just not specifically beneficial to them.

Criticism is made, and taken on board, it can't be acted on often because it's based on unsound logic.  However, I've stated elsewhere that I think some of the points made are very good ones, MAME does need to start supporting multi-channel sound, it seems silly not to, especially when it's had multi-monitor, multi-mouse and multi-keyboard support for years now.  The practicalities of it are more difficult tho.  People seem quick to ignore the times I've actually agreed, and would rather focus on continually hammering home a point they've been given countless reasons why is impractical.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand where you are coming from. It's a hard line to walk, and I do appreaciate a lot of your messages, I personally have learned a lot. Some of the complaints do just need to be resolved with simply explaining the situation.

It other cases though, I would say you are trying to put out a fire with gasoline. Going back to the pages of X2 rants about 720 deticated controls, you did fight it tooth and nail (and I understand why, I had to read those posts too.) It later came out that, yes, its not a bad thing to incorporate into MAME if done correctly. So, I guess my point is a certain degree of openness amid any form of complaint is needed, no matter if the urge to argue comes up. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I've deleted all my previous posts, except the first one and the recent exchange.

Now perhaps we can be at least civil to each other from now on.  

Let me get this straight ... the guy who called Haze on *editing* his threads decides to go all ahigh ?

 

[sjbaines]

In reality, the whining from a few sounds exactly like the whining from children when they don't get their way.  My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine.  We need one here for a couple asshats, I mean d-bags since someone whines about asshats.   

I agree.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to make comments, suggestions, requests, and (constructive) criticism of a free project like MAME.  What isn't reasonable though is to point-blank refuse to accept the response when it's not what you want to hear, and to instead just keep on bashing the project, whilst making the same points over and over.

It's clear that there are entrenched positions here. Who is 'right' is irrelevant - this discussion isn't going anywhere, it's just repetition.

   'You get what you get and you don't get upset'

[Hoopz]

...decides to go all ahigh ?
 

It never gets old. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Who is 'right' is irrelevant

Uh, Cheffo's right ... saint even said so!

 

[Mikezilla]

Jesus Im gone for 3 days and this thread is STILL active!? What the french toast?! 

[ark_ader]

I've deleted all my previous posts, except the first one and the recent exchange.

Now perhaps we can be at least civil to each other from now on.  

Let me get this straight ... the guy who called Haze on *editing* his threads decides to go all ahigh ?

 

Yes I can look at a problem, act to resolve it, and learn from the experience.  Shame on me for trying.

In reality, the whining from a few sounds exactly like the whining from children when they don't get their way.  My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine.  We need one here for a couple asshats, I mean d-bags since someone whines about asshats.   

I agree.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to make comments, suggestions, requests, and (constructive) criticism of a free project like MAME.  What isn't reasonable though is to point-blank refuse to accept the response when it's not what you want to hear, and to instead just keep on bashing the project, whilst making the same points over and over.

It's clear that there are entrenched positions here. Who is 'right' is irrelevant - this discussion isn't going anywhere, it's just repetition.

   'You get what you get and you don't get upset'

Yes you can do that and make a request, but when the other party ignores you or gives you a song and dance, there is nothing wrong about pressing the point.  Watch any news channel for the same tactic.
It is more difficult to explain an issue to someone who is thinking in absolutes, like those who uses abusive names to make a point, then infers childish behavior.  Hmmm.

[CheffoJeffo]

Yes I can look at a problem, act to resolve it, and learn from the experience.  Shame on me for trying.

Shame on you for behaving like a spoiled (spoiler?) child.

Everybody knows that simply deleting your posts does absolutely nothing to change things (I'm pretty sure that Haze remembers what you wrote that pissed him off), other than to obscure what you actually wrote. Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.

I can't think of a single instance where someone mass deleted posts and it was a GoodThing(tm).

[CheffoJeffo]

My daughter's 2nd grade teacher had a sign in her classroom that told the students not to whine. 

I have a sign in my kitchen that says that my whining is fine ....



 

[ark_ader]

Yes I can look at a problem, act to resolve it, and learn from the experience.  Shame on me for trying.

Shame on you for behaving like a spoiled (spoiler?) child.

Everybody knows that simply deleting your posts does absolutely nothing to change things (I'm pretty sure that Haze remembers what you wrote that pissed him off), other than to obscure what you actually wrote. Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.

I can't think of a single instance where someone mass deleted posts and it was a GoodThing(tm).

Show me where I am acting like a spoiled child.  I deleted my posts as an act of goodwill towards Haze.  I really do not think for a moment he cares about anything I post.  You seem to think though.
I would like to see the latest version of Mame run on a stock P3 for early 80s games.  Please explain to me (like a child if you wish) how that is acting like a spoiled child?  I think a comment like "a spoiled child" is rather insulting, and why haven't you indicate this behavior early in the thread?  One could only think you are trolling.  
I cannot think of anything you have posted in this thread that was positive.  While you are in the describing mood, please explain that too.

[yotsuya]

Show me where I am acting like a spoiled child.

You mean besides the fact that you're blacking out your posts?

[BadMouth]

I would like to see the latest version of Mame run on a stock P3 for early 80s games.

Which goal of the MAME project would that serve?

[CheffoJeffo]

I think a comment like "a spoiled child" is rather insulting

Nothing gets by you, ark ...  

... except the fact that nobody owes you the current build of MAME running classics on a P3, especially since we already have a version of MAME that runs the classics well enough on a P3.

You are behaving like a spoiled child -- first by bitching about not getting what you want out of MAME (the first few posts were reasonable, what came later was bitching and technically nonsensical), then by bitching about Haze's post editing, then by using the fancy-dancy spoiler tag like some desperate hipster, and finally, by deleting your posts instead of just saying what you claim to have meant.

FWIW, I thought the Whining sign was a positive contribution.

 

EDIT: For the obvious, to everybody except ark, irony.

Show me where I am acting like a spoiled child.

[Erik]

Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.

Posts like that are why you're my favorite potsmoking muppet on this whole forum

[CheffoJeffo]

Stand like a man, take responsibility for what you write and, where warranted, either explain further or apologize.

Posts like that are why you're my favorite potsmoking muppet on this whole forum

You're just saying that because Fozzy doesn't post here anymore.

 

[saint]

To no one in particular - take the personal arguments private please. Personal shots aside, has this thread run its course or is there more to discuss?

[Malenko]

I can't think of a single instance where someone mass deleted posts and it was a GoodThing(tm).

genesim

Also, I like that ark blacks his posts out, makes him easier to ignore.

[ark_ader]

Its a nice start Cheffo, and I like the sign.  Reminds me of the guy from the Spaghettiooooos commercial.  I have one in my kitchen that says "Wishes doesn't wash dishes" - its very true.

I'm blanking my posts (and every single one from now) as a form of protest.  Yes I ask for too much to have my little poor P3 play out the classics that made people look at MAME and say "cool" but this is 2011 and we cannot do that, as it would be easier for you to upgrade.  Reminds me of two very similar companies....

I am installing the latest version of Mame in my linux box, to see if there is any differences.  And No I have not had ANY issues running SDLMAME like Haze suggests.  Maybe those with problems should read a book on Linux first.  I have to.   

I shouldn't have to blank out posts, but those in here (not you cheffo) are frightened of me scaring off a Mamdev, whom on the looks of it isn't completely welcomed by his peers.  He still enjoys contributing though.

He must have this site on RSS, and he cannot wait for the next exciting chapter, until it goes tits up.  Foley was like this.  Informative, helpful, but always around if mentioned.

I find it funny though just when the thread is of danger of going to PH, you BYOAC trolls show up like a bunch of sharks.  Coincidence?

[CheffoJeffo]

I find it funny though just when the thread is of danger of going to PH, you BYOAC trolls show up like a bunch of sharks.  Coincidence?

Didn't I show up in this thread before you did ?

 

[ark_ader]

I find it funny though just when the thread is of danger of going to PH, you BYOAC trolls show up like a bunch of sharks.  Coincidence?

Didn't I show up in this thread before you did ?

 

You might have me there. 

[TheShanMan]

Ark, quit trying to boss mamedev around. Install an old version of mame. If you want to use a P3, you have a set of trade offs and you have to pick what works best for you and live with the fact that no matter what you go with, there are going to be downsides to that choice. Trying to talk mamedev into making mame run well on a P3 when it is quite clear that isn't going to happen is like a child holding his breath. Your other actions like deleting your posts and blacking out the text "as a form of protest" just add to the impression of you acting childish.

[shateredsoul]

It's funny. I always wondered why people were against these type of threads. I thought, hey we could have a civilized convo on improving mame. I imagined us learning about what's being worked on, the current status of naomi, getting some people inspired to finish unfinished systems.. I thought wrong. I agree with cheffo, it just turned into a bunch of whining.

Ark, I don't think people care about scaring him away. If anything he's shown to be pretty resilient and able to hold his own (even if he sounds mad all the time).

maybe it is time to close it?

[abaraba]

That's a disagreement... It's got nothing to do with being removed from MameWorld.

You would not know, having first said you are clueless about it, unless one of those statements is a lie. -- Disagreement? No, you were banned because your attitude and lack of reason was making more valuable people go away, or not want to join the project at all.

You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.

The actual MameWorld ban, as I said, it still makes no sense.

Of course you were not banned becasue of 'reposting deleted posts'. You have been explicitly told numerous times your personal dogma is not shared with the rest of the team. You were banned becasue they did not want you to "represent" the team, as they said. Makes sense?

[saint]

You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.

Let's be clear that the only way someone gets banned here is by violating my rules of civility and decorum, and Haze has done nothing in that vein. You are on thin ice yourself, he is not.

Get your last, polite licks in folks please. Locking this thread when I notice it again tonight...

--- saint

[CheffoJeffo]

You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.

When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes. Derrick and Badmouth already told you what your problems are.

I expect that your claims of having fixes are similar to your previous claims of having the ultimate control interface (while you simultaneously claimed that the interfaces from Ultimarc and GGG were bad) ... specious.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

The reason you were banned is directly connected to present situation you're complaining about, it's quite hilarious really, let me give you a clue:

http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=116673&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

You misrepresent what happened ... I don't happen to agree with Haze in that thread, but it isn't quite what you represent it to be (which, oddly enough, was about someone demanding that someone else do something for them for free ... sound familiar?).

Interestingly, you failed to mention this gem, which applies here quite nicely:

unless you have done the work, you literally have no right to make demands or threats about it.

[Malenko]

IBTL;

I greatly appreciate everything anyone has done for mame. Even if you worked on a driver that fixed a small sound glitch in a game I have never played (yet). Also, you aren't limited to using 1 build of MAME at a time, just set up your front end to use the best version for the games you play.

The best thing MAME ever did for me was get me to want to buy dedicated cabs, which I've done and plan to do more of.

[ark_ader]

Indeed.  Actually I now play all of my classics on CoinOPS Epic, and do away with any associations on my PCs.  Since the Xbox is quite nippy and dirt cheap, I am quite happy playing .9X regardless.  I'm sure the Mamdevs would be spitting blood if I mentioned that earlier in this thread, but considering it is fork and a unsupported one. Whoopee.

I have SDLMame 14x running on my linux box now, and I say that the classics run better in that environment, not perfect though.  It is running in RAM so maybe that makes a difference.

Its been a fun thread, but it has taught me one very important lesson:  Do not advocate your values or views on this board, unless you want to be ridiculed.

I will continue to blackout my posts.  Regardless if you find it infantile or not.

[DJ_Izumi]

Does putting your posts in between spoiler flags just to be annoying, count as 'civil'?  Because I'd say that's just flat out trolling rather than 'protest'.

[saint]

Its been a fun thread, but it has taught me one very important lesson:  Do not advocate your values or views on this board, unless you want to be ridiculed.

I will continue to blackout my posts.  Regardless if you find it infantile or not.

It is your chosen method of delivery (tone and wording) that brings you grief, not your perspective, values, or views. This is an important distinction.

[ark_ader]

Its been a fun thread, but it has taught me one very important lesson:  Do not advocate your values or views on this board, unless you want to be ridiculed.

I will continue to blackout my posts.  Regardless if you find it infantile or not.

It is your chosen method of delivery (tone and wording) that brings you grief, not your perspective, values, or views. This is an important distinction.

My Senior manager told me once:  Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient.  As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.

That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less. 

[CheffoJeffo]

My Senior manager told me once:  Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient.  As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.

That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.

Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ...  dunno why he would do that ... 

[Vigo]

My Senior manager told me once:  Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient.  As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.

That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.

Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ...  dunno why he would do that ... 

...because all the messages he was sending were completely blacked out. 

[Hoopz]

My Senior manager told me once:  Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient.  As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.

That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.

Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ...  dunno why he would do that ... 

...because all the messages he was sending were completely blacked out. 

To be fair, it could have been so long ago that he was using Whiteout?   

[CheffoJeffo]

...because all the messages he was sending were completely blacked out. 

 

[ark_ader]

My Senior manager told me once:  Never write a letter, nor send an electronic message that you could compromise yourself or confuse your intended recipient.  As attitude or expressed meanings are difficult to convey on paper.

That rule is difficult to abide by via this medium, but the advice is suitable in this context none the less.

Sounds to me like he was just telling you not to correspond with people ...  dunno why he would do that ... 

One of the many reasons why we have smileys?

I think he was leaning towards communicating verbally about your issues and views, then pen and paper.  It has always helped me in the past.  If in doubt, pick up the phone or don't bother.

He was very much old school, and when he spoke you listened.

But like what I am implying now.  Does, what I type get taken for its merit?  Nope. More ridicule.

[abaraba]

When your fixes are accepted by the MAMEDevs, THEN talk about your fixes.

My fixes were refused a priori by Haze and Derrick, look back couple of pages in this thread and see for yourself, plus there was no one interested to test 720 controller - the binary is available for download, as you know.

I made several variants and I gave them a choice to pick any of those solutions, they not only refused to even discuss it, but they were unwilling to just say what kind of solution would they accept at all.

Derrick and Badmouth already told you what your problems are.

What are you doing? Everyone can see for themselves who said what, and it is obviously me who solved Derrick's problems, I am the only who actually came up with a COMPLETE WORKING solution. Why don't you go to that thread and challenge me, I'll upload binary for testing, ok?

I expect that your claims of having fixes are similar to your previous claims of having the ultimate control interface (while you simultaneously claimed that the interfaces from Ultimarc and GGG were bad) ... specious.

Yes, just like that you only need to actually try it and you will see for yourself.

You misrepresent what happened ...

Phil Bennett:
- Good grief RB, Haze. I'd vote to ban you two from representing MAME personally.
Two past contributors alienated for the sake of YOUR principles.

AaronGiles (to Phil Bennett):
- You and me both.

[abaraba]

You did the same thing with me here, I have fixes for both 720 and gear shifter games, but you're still falsely asserting to represent MAME team and sending me to fork off - confirming your assertive self-entitlement is still destructive to the project, though it seem to work well for getting unsuspected people kiss your ass and thus unknowingly support YOUR personal agenda while thinking they're supporting MAME team. I wonder when they realize this, how many of them would vote to ban you from here as well.

Let's be clear that the only way someone gets banned here is by violating my rules of civility and decorum, and Haze has done nothing in that vein. You are on thin ice yourself, he is not.

Yeah, and I'm laughing.