Cabinet 90% done - hit a critical failure and need help

[Necro]

Let me start with this...   Then this...

Being the moron that I am, I've nearly completed my OmegaMAME cabinet - the only thing not completed is my bezel/blackout for the monitor and my control panel.  Both of which I was going to do last.

However, I've hit a really REALLY large problem today.  What I was taking for granted - that I could easily mirror the output from the computer to the LCD monitor - isn't actually the case.  It seems there is absolutely no way (aside from $300 teleprompter converters) to do this.

Now, this isn't an issue with MAME as it will flip video output no problem, however it IS an issue with...every other emulator out there and all front ends out there.  Basically rendering my time, money, and effort totally blown up unless I figure something out.

Has anyone successfully done a mirror cab without a yoke-based flip?  Any suggestions on software?  Any suggestions on frontends, etc?

Thanks in advance.

(Note - there's another thread in the video forum discussing trying to get the core issue solved...but I figure while I keep on there I'd start looking for other work arounds.  This isn't meant to be a dupe post...this is intended to focus on software that can overcome the mirrored cab issue)

[TOK]

Isn't there a command line toggle to flip the video? Flip Y or something?
I'm not 100% sure, but I think if you search the MAME video command line parameters, you'll will find there is a toggle that does what you need.

[Necro]

MAME is fine.  MAME is the ONLY thing that's fine.  Other emulators don't have that kind of toggle.  Front Ends don't have that kind of toggle.

...I'm so utterly depressed at this right now it's not even funny.

[TOK]

I'm sorry, I've had a few beers and misread your post. I even went into MAME and figured out the flip commands for you, not realizing you had that part already. 

[Necro]

No problem - thanks for trying to help.  I think I'm going to go have a beer.  And possibly weep.   

[Comtek]

are you trying to flip every emulator 90 deg and leave them or be able to flip back and forth

[Bender]

so do you mean your using a mirror in your cab so you need the image reversed on the display? (like space invaders, man I love that look)
Have you check the actual LCD menus there is a small chance the monitor could do it internally

so video cards don't have that option? I could have sworn I saw that option in there somewhere on one of mine
I certainly would have made the same assumption that you did
don't get too down there's a solution out there somewhere
I gotta believe there is a software program out there that would do it

[Necro]

It's a single mirror cabinet - so I need ones that can flip in the X-axis.  Flipping back and forth doesn't matter.  And I can always pull the back off and look straight at the monitor for administrative stuff. 

Basically, the monitor is facing up into a mirror that's facing out.  So...it doesn't need to be rotated - the picture is right side up...just mirrored.  (Like if you hold up a paper in the mirror - everythings backwards).  I need something that can mirror all of it's output to match that.  Be it emulator or front-end. 

I really...REALLY...don't want to have to buy a CRT to put into this (it won't fit in the mirror config in a case) or rebuild the cab (the monitor would be too close to the player and lose 4-5 inches of distance the mirror provides).

Bender, you posted as I was typing this - checked the LCD menu....no go.  And all I can find is a $300 (on sale) teleprompter/scaler device.  I can't bring my self to spend that much...it's insane when I wouldn't be using the scaler or anything.  (And exactly like space invaders...it looks insanely cool.  I even have switches to turn on and off the blacklights that light up the art behind the mirror)

[DillonFoulds]

Why not leave mame unflipped, and flip your entire windows, at a video card level?

[Bender]

One of the big problems here is the lose termanology. Video card say flip but they really mean rotate and mirror to them means a second duplicate display. What Necro wants to do is flip the x axis of the display. It is not an option on any video card, as far as I can tell

My projector does it internally incase you want do rear projection, but that doesn't help

[Necro]

Yeah - I'm having trouble doing google searches because of the terminology.  Particularly since 'mirror' is what you can do with dual/multiple monitors.

Just to clarify:
Rotate: Spins the monitor.  Text still reads normally (left to right)
Mirror: Mirror image of the display - text is backwards and goes from right to left.  Like if you held a newspaper/magazine up to a mirror.

I need software that can output their display as if it was seen in a mirror - so when you see it in my cab's mirror, it looks like normal. (mirror image of a mirror image is a normal image).  Horizontally flipped image = mirror image.  At least, some places.

  again.

[Comtek]

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=14626

seems nvidia might have a solution

quote from abouve thread
If you are useing the nVidia stereo driver you can use the option: "Dual VGA with Mirror up/down" theres also a left/right option in there too. Hope this helps

[Necro]

Yeah...I saw that earlier.  Issue is they are very VERY old drivers (I was going to use XP) and you need to use two monitors... ... (the last two posts in that thread are about cabs also...never got answered it seems...)

[Bender]

funny, I saw something similar but with newer drivers I think. Could you fool it into thinking there were two monitors?
So there are drivers out there to do it for dual monitor sterographic purposes, so it's doable
http://www.vidimensio.eu/downloads/Planar_3D_Monitors.pdf

EDIT: Ok, going in circles now, just found your post from today on the nvidia forums

[Necro]

Looks like all 3 of us are looking at the same thing .  What I've been able to dig up on that is that it only works under XP and it's from 9X.xx forceware drivers.

I'm going to attempt it tomorrow if nothing else turns up...which means installing XP on the computer since I have no XP computer to test it on at this point... But I'm not sure how to fool it into thinking there are two monitors so it doesn't double up the display :/...

Kind of sucks...the front end issue is now my biggest one since I was going to use a PACdrive (Which I have and is in the cab) for LEDs and it works with Mala...but Mala doesn't do the flipping/mirror thing....and pacdrive doesn't seem to be supported by maximus arcade which seems to be the only FE that does mirror.

[Bender]

The LED-wiz is better for LED's anyway (supports different intensity levels) and works great in Maximus with LEDBlinky (that's the setup I use) and I love it

[DrFrag]

Since it can be done in software, maybe there's an obscure app around that can do it?

[northerngames]

sailorsat may be able to help perhap's

[Necro]

DeFrag: That's what I'm hoping - even a 'prank' app.  Can't seem to find one though.

SailorSat?  What does he do?  (Am I right in thinking driver edits for the ArcadeVGA card?)

[ark_ader]

Would Mess work instead of your other emulators?  What emus are we talking about here?

[Hoopz]

Would Mess work instead of your other emulators?  What emus are we talking about here?

Using Mess is a great question.   

[Necro]

Well...xrandr does exactly what I need. Just tested it via a Ubuntu Live CD.  What I'm trying to get accomplished is the following:

• - Support for U360's (varying maps)
• - Support for PACDrive
• - Support for DAPHNE type games - specifically Space Ace and Dragon's Lair
• - Full and complete MAME
• - Good looking Front End with a combination of the above supported somehow (i.e. U360, PacDrive, etc.)
  
I'd really like to be able to have, say, NES and C64 games on there as well...but I can do without that I guess.  It's an arcade machine after all.  My HTPC can handle those on the TV.

Aside from my fear of Linux...I'm thinking that's the way I might go.  Just need to determine what front end is doable and would work with the PAC drive and U360 maps for specific games.  

Awww....crap.  The U360 is actually the biggest issue now.  I don't know they will work at all on Linux.  Shoot.  

If anyone has the know how to actually program or hack a driver to do this, I'd have no problem sending them some money honestly.  This is something that should exist.

[Necro]

...and xrandr doesn't work on the cabinet hardware.

Welcome to my nightmare.

[dRiyoh]

What about physically rotating the monitor 180 degrees and then flipping the screen vertically in software such as with Ctrl+Shift+Down if your system supports that?

[Bender]

Maximus with LedBlinky will do everything you want
I think with LEDblinky you can even use the Pacdrive
I'm double checking right now.... Yep it'll do the pac drive

Wow cool, one check box and the mirroring works great

I think your all set except for the other Emu's

[Necro]

Bender - thanks.  I didn't think it did. I searched there forums and couldn't find anything on it...I actually installed Ubuntu and tried xrandr after it worked on my laptop.  Of course, it didn't work on the cabinet hardware. 

However, the beer I had to deal with this  was damn good (Climax Noel by Eel River - it was organic so it was healthy for me...or something). 

I also started looking at adding a second, 100% mirror to reflect the image in some way to the already built in mirror (do a V configuration in the cab, reflecting up to the silvered/1-way mirror.  It's going to involve some geometry to figure out exactly how the hell do to that though.  And ripping out half of what I've done, wiring wise.

Maximus and MAME may be the best approach. 

dRiyoh: That doesn't actually result in a reflection, unfortunately.  Just an upside down mirror image (or, after flipping, the exact same place I am now...). Try it - flip your monitor then kind of stand on your head to look at it.  Thank you for the suggestion, however.  I appreciate anything at this point.

[Bender]

just so you know LEDBlinky is what supports the PacDrive
And LedBlinky runs inside maximus
so you have to configure LedBlinky to run the PacDrive (just as you would for LEDWiz) also ledBlinky does mapping for the U360's

LedBlinky is what made Maximus usable for me

[Havok]

MAME is fine.  MAME is the ONLY thing that's fine.  Other emulators don't have that kind of toggle.  Front Ends don't have that kind of toggle.

...I'm so utterly depressed at this right now it's not even funny.

AtomicFE does a mirror image option, but that won't help your other stuff. So, at least you have a front end and Mame...

[gryhnd]

Edit - never mind....appears to be for video files only:

What about this I found through some googling?

I know nothing about it, nor have I tried it:

http://www.dvdvideosoft.com/products/dvd/Free-Video-Flip-and-Rotate.htm

[gryhnd]

Ok, after my last failed attempt, I did come across a reference that implies flipped-landscape is available in Windows 7. It does not indicate this is limited to certain (nVidia) cards:

http://maximumpcguides.com/windows-7/set-the-monitor-orientation-to-landscape-flipped/

[TOK]

The Windows 7 flip just turns the image upside down, not reversed.

[gryhnd]

The Windows 7 flip just turns the image upside down, not reversed.

Damn. Well I obviously got nothing then.

[Necro]

Hehe.  Bender - thanks so much.  I owe you a beer sometime      So now that I have a potential solution, it's time to make sure it's the only one.

I'm delving into actually flipping the LCD (HP LP2065) output via a LCD style yoke flip.  We'll see if that's possible with this monitor (And I mean easily doable.  Definitely not risking the monitor...)

[drventure]

Weird, I could have sworn I posted this, but I don't see it in this thread.

You might check out iRotate

http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/Video-Tweak/iRotate.shtml

I'm not sure if it'll do a flip though.

Maybe an email to them could verify that or they could possibly add it?

[Necro]

Drventure: You did...apologies.  I was attempting to make this thread about software solutions and the other in the Video/Monitor forum about hardware.  Things got muddled though and I feel that I may have ended up double posting after the fact

I wrote them and they said they can't add it.  I also wrote the developers of the IZ3d 3d drivers and they said they can't do it either and their drivers only work for Direct3d applications...

[RayB]

I skipped the last few messages... maybe it's been said already:
Ditch the mirror and mount the LCD up top.

[Necro]

Contemplating that.  Kind of blows a lot of the effect of the cab...and won't be easy. :/

So...I went down and basically removed the monitor 'board'.  I repositioned it behind the mirror to see what it would look like and it actually looks pretty good.  I can get it far enough back that it isn't TOO close to the player.  Big issue is I'm going to have to cut/modify the UV art so that it works with the monitor positioned back there.

Going to screw around with it a bit this evening and see what I can do...

[Necro]

...so...based on everything I've seen, tried, tested, and read about in the past 48 hours I decided two things.  One, it wasn't worth the time and effort to continue trying to get a fix when it was becoming clear there wasn't one.  And two, I'm not happy with a half-way fix that could bomb out and leave me SOL somewhere down the line - this last one came into play when checking out the Maximus Arcade forum and how people are complaining of how its dead.

SO....I went downstairs into my workroom and started thinking.  And problem solving.  Hell, it's what I do for a living (I'm a science-type consultant) so I figured I could do this.

Two hours later, and I think I've solved it except for one issue - and that's not even something major.

What I'm doing is taking the board that was holding the monitor (see the pics further down in this thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=85429.0 ) and flip it vertically so that it rests on that thin board across the cab above where monitor shelf normally sits.  I'm adding a 'bar' across that thin piece of wood to hold the bottom of the panel (it forms a V groove) and will be installing two side 'holders' that will hold the top of the panel in place vertically.  The hammer in thread holes (whatever you call them) and two bolts should be sufficient to accomplish this.  Depending on how sturdy it is, I may or may not add 2 additional anchors.

I did a quick test and this DOES still look cool...however it does eliminate the potential for art appearing in the mirror via the blacklight like I originally planned.  While kind of sad, the alternatives (going with a CRT monitor, $300 inverter box thing, etc.) just weren't feasible.  The mirror DOES provide some 'smokey-ness' to the picture and it still does look cool...so I'm going to see if there's some way for me to do a 3d bezel using what art I have and have it still work somewhat with the blacklight I spend so much time wiring up.  The biggest issue here (again, look in the thread above) is that the art will be between the mirror and the monitor 'board'.  So...either I remove the monitor from the board, install the art through the hole, THEN put the monitor on (which will be a PITA) or figure out a way to install he art, then install the monitor board (again, PITA since it has to go in at an angle).  However...this is a much smaller issue then what I was facing before.  If nothing else, I can reorient the black light (somehow) and put all the art on the other side of the mirror so it appears on there...maybe...with the image coming through. 

We'll see.  First things first - get this monitor installed correctly over the weekend

Thank you all for all your help with this.  I'm annoyed I couldn't get this to work the way I originally envisioned, since it was one of the big decision factors in me getting this cab and spending on the time I have on it vs. something easier to work with...but...thus is life.

[DeLuSioNal29]

There is a Front End that supports mirroring:  Maximus Arcade

It's a simple tick box that you enable in the preferences for mirrored cabs.  

http://www.maximusarcade.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97&Itemid=59#skins



** edit **  Just reread the topic and noticed that Maximus Arcade was already mentioned.  Sorry about the double-post.  As for the support, the author plans on an update in the future... for there is a serious X-Arcade control issue bug to squash.  He is dialoging with the X-Gaming folks as we speak for a solution.  As to when the update will be released is uncertain though...  But you should not have an issue if you don't have an X-Arcade controller.  But unfortunately this issue has given MA a bad name due to the bug (unfairly so).  Truth is though, there is a FREE 30 day trial, so you should make sure it works during that time period.

DeLuSioNaL29

[Bender]

I have to agree Maximus sometimes gets a bad rap, but it has worked great for me, and once it's set up a 4 year old can use it and not mess anything up (I know this from experience)

I'm not sure what dead means it  just had a major update a few months back

Plus it sounds like AtomocFE will work too (Also works with LEDBlinky and Pacdrive) so you actually have two FE options

Plus I'd be willing to bet someone will get a software solution working down the road

I'd be so sad if you couldn't get this to work the Space Invaders way, I've secretly always wanted to make one like that


Plus I want that Beer!!

[TOK]

Necro, your cab sounds cool enough to me that I would just use the original setup and stick to MAME. Unless there is some specific console game you're really hooked on, MAME has built in solution to your issue.

I put console emulators on my first machine and realized I didn't really want to play them after playing their arcade counterparts.

[Necro]

True true....and once I make the mods to the art I can't go back...so...

Attempt with Maximus it is I guess.  Which puts me in a bad spot - 30 days is great, but I need to finish the CP to really test it.  My plan was to setup the computer partially, then build the CP slowly, ensuring all connections work right since I'm building it off of a multiple d-sub connectors and I'm a bit worried about my ability to put it together properly. 

Dragon's Lair, Space Ace and Dragon's Lair II I guess are the only big games I want to make sure work...but one of the DAPHNE developers told me that I can accomplish it via flipping the videos used in the game.  I'll do that if it doesn't work in MAME.

   Now I want to go home and work on the cab.  This isn't good.  I'm swamped with work...

[RobbyMac]

apparantly lcd's are translucent? Guys make projretcor with them... I havent read a whole lot into it, and it sounds a bit involved. I can't imagine you'd need all the cooling since you're not projecting it the way these guys are.
Anyways, fractal lense may help you, or possibly stripping the lcd screen and flipping it? Do some reading and se if it's worth trying.
http://www.lumenlab.com/S15_PDF/Lumenlab_DIY_projector_guide_v2.0.pdf

But man I'd like to think theres gotta be a dip switch somewhere to invert the damn screen in any given monitor (Wishful thinking I know).

[Necro]

I was looking at that yesterday....the big thing I need to determine is whether or not flipping is possible.  My interpretation of some of the diagrams I've seen is that there's a film at the back of the LCD that you remove when making those projectors.

...Hrm.  I actually have a dead GPS unit I can rip apart to test this on tonight.  In-tah-resting...   

[RayB]

Here's another idea: Is there room for a 2nd mirror?

Currently, you have it like this (chicken head man shows direction a player faces):

/   <o
 /    |

Since the monitor is facing away from the player, the image appears reversed horizontally.

In this configuration, with a 2nd mirror and the monitor UPSIDE DOWN, it works (straight line is the monitor, but you may have to angle it):

/     <o
\  |    |

The tricky part will be the angles and room.

[RayB]

Another set up, would be like this:

/
|  /

Again, the straight line being the monitor, but you may need to play with the angles.

[Blanka]

Give us some pics of the machine. 

[Necro]

Well, there are some pics in the thread.  I'm going to get some more tonight or tomorrow since...    I got it working last night.

I did a trial run with Maximus and a 'test' MAME setup (5 roms, snaps, etc.) - and it looked incredible.  The blacklight works great, the mirror works exactly like it should, and everything was just awesom.  My wife came down to my work room and took a look and I think for the first time she was actually excited about the project and thought it looked great.  She understood what all the work was going into. 

So...SO happy.  Thanks for making me try this once more guys. 

One more step to 'complete the guts' of the cab - getting the 'bezel' (for lack of a better term) made for the monitor holding board.  I'm going to grab some black matte today to use for that.  Once that's done, I can put everything together and focus on designing the control panel.  Which is going to be a while other nightmare but one I'm fully expecting.  

Blanka: I thought about the 2nd mirror.  The issue is definitely the angles and fitting everything in - it would honestly be easier to just get a CRT and yoke flip it (I was looking into that) or buying another LCD TV/monitor that has a built in flipping ability. 

[RobbyMac]

So you got the image flipped? Howd you get it to work?

[bkenobi]

No, I think he limited his setup to MAME and the FE only.

[Necro]

In every other thread on the topic, this would be where the thread dies so the next person trying this has no clue WTF was done to solve the issue .  I won't do that!  

And yes, I tested a FE that flipped and made sure MAME works flipped.  Since constant updates aren't going to be happening to the computer once it's in the CAB - maybe only an annual MAME update - there's no reason for me to worry about that aspect at this point and how it really requires a hardware or lower level based reflect to occur.

[RayB]

                      .

[Necro]

RayB: Uh...what?  

Regarding pictures - they look like crap.  I need to use flash to get anything to come out, and this results in it just looking like...a cab. 

So...I'm going to try to take a video over the weekend and I'll post it.

[RobbyMac]

Ahh cool. somehow I missed the FE flipping
Grats! 
When I grow up and become an engineer I'm going to make sure I put useful stuff into stuff so people like us dont run into these situations anymore 

[drventure]

When I grow up and become an engineer I'm going to make sure I put useful stuff into stuff so people like us dont run into these situations anymore

Yeah, but you'll have to get those great features past the bean counters. Those guys ruin the fun for everyone