Petition to tv makers (your thoughts about that)

[mimic]

I noticed that quite often people talk about lack of large 4:3 lcd monitors, I was thinking how about a petition to all tv makers? From those well known all the way to relative unknowns. If there was at least a 1000 signatures I'd think they might be interested.
All we are interested is what?
-4:3 aspect,
-Resolution?
-Size?
-Cost?
-PC-only connection?
-No ghosting (how's that called? Forgot)
-whatever else I'm forgetting
I don't know how this works, but it seems like they don't manufacture tvs into millions but rather tens of thousands, short series of different models, maybe large amount of the same type would make them to at least consider? I know there will be nay sayers, that no one will ever agree, but it would cost the community absolutely nothing, some time create the petition and hosting.

Neither one of those I could do as I don't:
a) speak/write english with proper grammar
b) don't know how to build web sites.
(in other words I just nicely excluded myself from my own idea)

And if they ever agree, then we can always ask them for very wide narrow monitors to cram them into our marquees

[Malenko]

not gonna happen, sorry

[mimic]

not gonna happen, sorry

c'mon there we go with the negativity. And you know that how? As I said it would cost nothing to really find out.
Further thoughts. We (community) could go as far as establishing a saving escrow account for down payment to entice the companies to look into it. Remember we probably don't even need cases for those monitors only a way to mount it and the guts. Also we would bypass retailers so that saving could be passed either directly onto us or pay higher price to manufacturer to offset smaller run of the line.

Of course escrow would have to be established by several hopefully well trusted people so no one could just take all the money and run. If it wouldn't work at least you would have small interest on your money.

[J.Max]

This would be pointless.  Even 10,000 customers wouldn't be a blip on their radar.

[Ginsu Victim]

not gonna happen, sorry

c'mon there we go with the negativity.

That isn't negativity....that's reality.

[Franco B]

not gonna happen, sorry

c'mon there we go with the negativity.

That isn't negativity....that's reality.

+1.1^∞

[mimic]

Wow, I cannot believe you guys! You're so defeated and so sure, even though not one of you know for sure, because how would you!? Let's talk numbers then, even if they're imaginary.
Let's say they would make $50 profit on each set x 1000 units = $50,000, you gonna tell me that's a chump change to them not worth pursuing!? if you think that you gotta be kidding me.
Let me ask you how many different tv/monitor manufacturers there is? Either with their own factories or some kind of agreements with big manufacturers 100, 200? How many total monitors/tvs of each model a year can they possibly sell? 1,000,000? More or less? I mean how often do you buy tv, it's not grocery.
I just purchased a tv on black friday Auria, never heard of it, it was only available in Compu USA, you gonna tell me they sell piles of tvs? They wouldn't jump on opportunity of selling 800 - 2000 monitors? How hard can it possibly be for them to retool and cut 26" of 4:3 LCDs. I don't think it's such a black magic to them as you guys think.
All I'm saying one web page with signatures on it + collecting & emailing those signatures to every maker we can find, that's not such a mundane task is it?

[CheffoJeffo]

While I hate to be negative about something like this ... I think that you are grossly underestimating the market.

Most people in this hobby (CoinOp, not just MAME) want tubed monitors, so you've already lost a big chunk there. For folks wanting 27" 4:3 monitor, they aren't exactly hard to find in CRT ... so there is a another bunch of folks who drop off.

Of those who want LCDs, I suspect a sizable percentage aren't too upset about widescreen since they can be used for other PC games.

There are professional suppliers who can't seem to get what you think a random gang of gamers can.

If you want to start something, I would suggest talking to someone who deals with this stuff professionally first -- RickN of Nieman Displays posts here and may be able to share some insight.

[DJ_Izumi]

Yes that's chump change.  To even make a new kinda TV, you need to retool a factory to make that model.  You need to sell a LOT of units to make it profitable.  Like hundreds of thousands.

4:3 is obsolete, everything new coming out will be 16:9 or close eto that.  TV signals, blurays, video gamese, all 16:9.  4:3 for a bunch of nerds playing twenty year old arcade games that normal people would just buy on Xbox Live is a tiny, TINY niche market.

Besides, ten years from now, MAME will be emulating 16:9 native arcade games.

[SavannahLion]

While I hate to be negative about something like this ... I think that you are grossly underestimating the market.

Let me ask you how many different tv/monitor manufacturers there is? Either with their own factories or some kind of agreements with big manufacturers 100, 200? How many total monitors/tvs of each model a year can they possibly sell? 1,000,000? More or less? I mean how often do you buy tv, it's not grocery.

I think it's more like a misunderstanding of the market.The heyday of many manufacturers making effectively the same thing are gone... long gone. Most everything is consolidated into just a mere handful of manufacturers. I guess a good example would be Intel/AMD/IBM for CPUs or ATI/nVidia/Intel for GPUs These companies combined dominate so much of their specific market that no one else is worth mentioning. There's a reason why oligopoly (or inaccurately, monopoly) is often used when referring to these companies and their markets.

I just purchased a tv on black friday Auria, never heard of it, it was only available in Compu USA, you gonna tell me they sell piles of tvs? They wouldn't jump on opportunity of selling 800 - 2000 monitors?

Auria was started in 2008. I have my serious doubts that Auria is capable of establishing a complete R&D and manufacturing facility in such a short amount of time. It's more likely that, at best, they have a design department design their TVs using off-the-shelf components. That would explain their lower prices. Auria might not even have an assembly plant anywhere. I used to work for a PC company and we would assemble (that company didn't do any actual manufacturing either. They design PC components or establish specifications and a price ceiling and order the components from still yet another company) and rebadge the custom PC's for whomever we were building them for.

So yes, 1M would literally be a drop in the bucket when the EPA estimated 154 million PCs in existence by 2000. If we conservatively estimate an average of 12.3 million PC's sold a year with nearly all being sold with LCD monitors coupled with the exploding market of flat TVs, HUDs and whatever else flat monitors are being used. It's easy to see that, with an order of 1M panels, a company will take you seriously enough to sell their stock, but not enough to cause them to retool one of their lines.

How hard can it possibly be for them to retool and cut 26" of 4:3 LCDs. I don't think it's such a black magic to them as you guys think.

Magic? I don't think anyone thinks any part of the process is black magic. Voodoo perhaps, especially when trying to write a controller to talk to one of these panels. But certainly not black magic. I would take CheffoJeffo's advice to heart and talk to someone who is in the industry.

All I'm saying one web page with signatures on it + collecting & emailing those signatures to every maker we can find, that's not such a mundane task is it?

Someone already did all the heavy lifting.

No one is really discouraging you from doing what you want. God knows I want 4:3 panels. But you need to be a little bit more realistic about it.

[DJ_Izumi]

So uhh, why not just mount a 16:9 monitor in your cab, but have it so the sides are covered behind the bezel or whatever, feed it a 4:3 signal and set the TV to not resize and instead pillar box?  It seems to me that'd be a HELL of a lot easier, though you'd need to spare some space on teh edge of the wood going around the monitor so it could cover up those edges.

If I was repairing active use coinops from older years and wanted to move to LCDs, I'd look into that option instead.

Or heck, just pillar box without covering the pillars.  Those 16:9 screens are gonna come in handy for newer things, SFIV for example.

[Blanka]

I did it already, without much succes:
http://www.petitiononline.com/43lcdtv/petition.html

To refurbish old 4:3 vertical cabs with 19 inch screens, THANK GOD, we still can buy the excellent gaming-proof HP LP2065.

[Blanka]

Even 10,000 customers wouldn't be a blip on their radar.

10000 pieces is a solid market and is good enough to set up a line. How many NEC 2690Wuxi's are sold you think?

I think the focus should not be on cabinet builders, but on console-lovers. Within 5 years, nobody will be able to hook up a composite, scart or S-video (or even a antenna-input!) cable to a new TV or monitor anymore. They will only offer HDMI and DP. Yet thousands of NES-es are traded every day around the world.
What we need then is good 4:3 LCD TV's with hookups for all our old consoles, fast enough to work with Nintendo ZAPPERS! So we should get help at the Nintendo 8-bit, Genesis and Atari 2600 communities.

I vote for an
- H-IPS 1200x1600 screen of 27 inch
- input lag <10ms
- inputs: 5x cinch, 3x S-video, 2x component, 2x scart (RGB/S-vid), 2x antenna, and 2xHDMI for those retro-modernists.
- Selectable blocky, XSAL, trinitron, and tridot upscaling.
- Minimal black flat bezel, for clean looks in house, or for easy mounting.
- Automatic input selection and remote controllable

[DJ_Izumi]

I'm not ENTIRELY sure it'll disappear THAT quickly.  Many models of Xbox 360 and all models of Wii will only use component/S-Video/Composite.

But even if that IS the case, I'm pretty sure that a few companies will start producing RF/Composite/S-Video/Component to HDMI converters that will fill a need for a lot of people using legacy hardware on newer TVs.

[Blanka]

But even if that IS the case, I'm pretty sure that a few companies will start producing RF/Composite/S-Video/Component to HDMI converters that will fill a need for a lot of people using legacy hardware on newer TVs.

Sure, but that means extra boxes, and especially converters are among the ugliest. Not to mention they never include the AC brick, so that means another box!

[DJ_Izumi]

However, as I see it there really is no need to petition companies.  The consumer is always voting for a company when he makes a purchase.  Retailers take note of what the consumers statistically prefer and the manufacturers take note and adjust their products to consumer demands.  Because obviously, the person who sells the product the consumer wants, will get the sales.  So if enough people need composite or RF (Okay RF will probaby die off before composite) for their connected devices, they'll buy TVs that support it and the manufactures will take note.  Considdering that component will probably last the longest, as so many older HD devices are on component without HDMI it'll stick around, the hardware will likely keep 'legacy ports' for a while.  Granted they're will probably be fewer and fewer of them.

That and seperate converter boxes will probably get smaller anyway as technology always gets smaller.   Could be something the size of an iPhone in a few years.

[Blanka]

The consumer is always voting for a company when he makes a purchase.  Retailers take note of what the consumers statistically prefer and the manufacturers take note and adjust their products to consumer demands.

That only works on the downvoting side. Stopping a stupid product with consumer behavior is easy, promoting stuff that isn't made yet is completely impossible this way. So your theory works in one way, not the way we need here.

Asking for new stuff only works if you are willing to pay the development, or if a company specifically asks to give input like with co-creation sessions or so. I can think of at least 10 products that would exist on consumer behavior, yet no company makes.

[bkenobi]

While I agree that a decent sized 4:3 display would be awesome, think about things for a second.  If you were given the choice between buying a 27" 4:3 LCD for ~$5000 to install in your existing cabinet or buying a 42" 16:9 LCD for ~$500 and building a Viewlix style cab for ~$1000, what would you do?

Understanding that my numbers are just ballpark, you would be WAY further ahead just building a new cab and moving on.  You would still be better off if you were to buy an official Viewlix for that matter.  The problem is that small production runs of CUSTOM equipment, while possible, are VERY expensive.  If you divide out the tooling cost for a product by 1 (one off) or 1M, the difference in product cost to the end user is enormously different.

Now, I haven't taken a manufacturing course in ~10 years, but I guarantee that things have not changed significantly.  The tooling costs are one of the most important things when it comes to deciding on whether to go forward on a product.  If they can't sell enough units, the manufacturer won't make the widget. 

Just to drive the point home...more money is spent on deciding whether a product is viable than that estimated $50,000 profit that was listed earlier.

Sorry, this won't happen unless some big boy steps up and says they need a bazillion units.

[RayB]

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

Back on topic of # of manufacturers, it really is a small handful these days. If you crack open a Toshiba, it's full of Samsung parts. The glass used for plasma screens (maybe LCD too?) is manufactured by ONE company for all the various big brands.

[mimic]

While I hate to be negative about something like this ... I think that you are grossly underestimating the market.

Most people in this hobby (CoinOp, not just MAME) want tubed monitors, so you've already lost a big chunk there. For folks wanting 27" 4:3 monitor, they aren't exactly hard to find in CRT ... so there is a another bunch of folks who drop off.

Of those who want LCDs, I suspect a sizable percentage aren't too upset about widescreen since they can be used for other PC games.

There are professional suppliers who can't seem to get what you think a random gang of gamers can.

If you want to start something, I would suggest talking to someone who deals with this stuff professionally first -- RickN of Nieman Displays posts here and may be able to share some insight.

To all those points. I've seen people constantly wishing and talking about what if, so I had an idea.

Yes that's chump change.  To even make a new kinda TV, you need to retool a factory to make that model.  You need to sell a LOT of units to make it profitable.  Like hundreds of thousands.

I was talking about 50K pure profit, large or small company I don't think 50K is a chump change for any one. Profit is profit, if you walk away from profit, then you're lazy.

I think it's more like a misunderstanding of the market...

Your explanation unfortunately makes a lot of sense and I see now how it is futile

So uhh, why not just mount a 16:9 monitor in your cab, but have it so the sides are covered behind the bezel or whatever, feed it a 4:3 signal and set the TV to not resize and instead pillar box?  It seems to me that'd be a HELL of a lot easier, though you'd need to spare some space on teh edge of the wood going around the monitor so it could cover up those edges.

If I was repairing active use coinops from older years and wanted to move to LCDs, I'd look into that option instead.

Or heck, just pillar box without covering the pillars.  Those 16:9 screens are gonna come in handy for newer things, SFIV for example.

Because it will make the cab that much wider or cumbersome to deal with + what I said to CheffoJeffo

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

I already addressed the issue of money earlier in my post. You must've missed it

Back on topic of # of manufacturers, it really is a small handful these days. If you crack open a Toshiba, it's full of Samsung parts. The glass used for plasma screens (maybe LCD too?) is manufactured by ONE company for all the various big brands.

SavannahLion already explaind that issue no need to repeat it.

[mlalena]

There are still companies selling 3:4 monitors and they will sell them for years to come.
Some panel makers have dropped the 3:4, but there are a couple selling 1 (maybe 2) models at that aspect ratio.

The problem is that they are less desired, so the markup from both the panel manufacturer and integrator are both higher.

Some companies (like mine & even some arcade companies) continue to manufacture products with integrated monitors where it is cheaper to buy the overpriced 3:4 monitors than to redesign an existing product for a cheaper widescreen monitor. There will be a market for 3:4 monitors for a very long time, but the prices will continue to go up. As an example, there are vendors selling 20" monitors that work with with a long dead product from my previous company for $2,500. A used keyboard goes for $1,200.

For new product development, both my company and arcade companies are designing new products that use the newer cheaper widescreen monitors, but even then you have to pick between 16:10 or 16:9. For MAME, you have to decide if the 3:4 is worth the price of the authentic arcade, or should you just go with the widescreen realizing that newer arcade games are widescreen anyway. I have the PC version SF4 on my system and it looks great on the widescreen monitor.

[DJ_Izumi]

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

...$50 000 profit is peanuts to an electronics manufacturer.  That's what it costs to pay just two employees at a Sony Style store for a whole year.  In 2008 Sony LOST 2.8 billion dollars, you think they or any other electronics manufacturer would care about a project that would bring in a measly $50k in profit?  One of their engineers likely costs more per year than that, and they'd rather have that engineer working on something a hell of a lot more profitable.

[Gatt]

I was talking about 50K pure profit, large or small company I don't think 50K is a chump change for any one. Profit is profit, if you walk away from profit, then you're lazy.

The thing is,  it's not going to be profit.

For this to happen they'd first have to retool the factories,  they're currently setup to cut the panels in 16x9 so they'd have to redo all of that.  They'd then have to do a number of prototypes attempting to correct the problems that then occur because the bulbs they have are designed to illuminate a different area and will generate unacceptable images.  While they're doing this they have production lines effectively idled,  reducing the number of 16x9 TV's they're making,  in order to create these 4x3's.  So not only are they spending time and money to change over to produce them,  they're losing money in sales they could've had by producing the 16x9's.  So what ends up happening is that these 4x3's will have to be priced to not only include their production costs,  they'll also have to have their research costs priced in,  and then have the costs of the lost sales of 16x9's priced in.  So in short,  these things would end up exorborantly expensive,  many times the price of a 16x9.

Unfortunately,  there really is no upside at all for them.

[Blanka]

Guess it's going to skip the LCD era. But when OLED matures, 4:3 will be readily and cheeply available, since they just can cut the sheets or tile bigger ones from smaller ones. Just wait....

Weird thing is beamerland. While every one moves to 16:9, beamerland is still 4:3 for 99%. 800x600 is still the major resolution for beamers.

[FrizzleFried]

The reality of the situation is that even if you had 10,000 units PRE SOLD... the cost to re-tool their manufacturing line would certainly exceed any profit margin they may see.  4:3 is dead.  In the land of TV... it's the Edsel...

PS: This is an arcade enthusiast website and  you've managed to convince a total of ONE person (Blanka)... you have a long road ahead.

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

[Blanka]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

Only for the ones who grew up with tubes and real arcades. All the people I know that like just the games, like blocky LCD mame versions of the games perfectly,

[FrizzleFried]

What can i say...I'm a purist.  I'd never bastardize a real arcade machine by sticking an LCD in it.  I suppose a home built MAME is OK... but NEVER (ever) a real arcade machine...

...and I say this while staring at my 24" wide screen LCD PC monitor.

[SavannahLion]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

+1

Look at the vacuum tube industry and look at what's going on there now. If we're lucky, CRTs will receive the same love.

[Fordman]

Lets use another analogy!

In the early 80's when all the auto manufacturer's started using nothing but fuel injection vs a carberatuer to pump fuel into the motors, all the 'shade tree' mechanics went nuts! All they had to do was a rebuild or replace of the carb, maybe trace down a vacuum line leak or change the air filter. Now with fuel injections, you have the injector, O2 sensors, catalytic convertors and other electronic components. You had many carb manufacturer's making aftermarket carbs because there were millions on the road. As time went by, the older cars that needed carbs were either being junked or the race car and/or restoration crowd bought them all up. You can still buy a new carb, but at a premium price and the market is 2% of what it was.

So to have a manufacturer make 4:3 monitors a for niche crowd would be more then just a tooling investment. You have research and developement, governmental regulation, shipping to retailer and finally advertising.

So to have a 4:3 lcd monitor to be manufactured for a niche hobby wouldnt be cost effective for the manufacturer or buyer. Realistically, could you afford $800.00 - $1,200 for a 27" 4:3 LCD monitor when all the 27" 16:9 HDTV-monitors are about $250.00 to $350.00 (depending on brand)? I think they would sit on a shelf for a long time untill the retailers decides to get a manufacturer credit for them so they can discount them. 

Back to the carb vs injector analogy, you cant buy a new vehicle that isnt fuel injected and to buy a new carb, most auto stores dont carry them as they are a special order part. Look in any of the auto magazines, the carbs are at a premium. Most junk yards have scrapped them for their metals.

Just some thoughts!

Fordman

[SavannahLion]

So... what... it would be a Multiple Auto-mobile Emulator? And instead of MAMEDev, it would be uh... MAmEMech?  

[Ginsu Victim]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

Only for the ones who grew up with tubes and real arcades. All the people I know that like just the games, like blocky LCD mame versions of the games perfectly,

Where the hell is genesim when you need him?

[CheffoJeffo]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

Only for the ones who grew up with tubes and real arcades. All the people I know that like just the games, like blocky LCD mame versions of the games perfectly,

Where the hell is genesim when you need him?

You're welcome.

[DJ_Izumi]

What can i say...I'm a purist.  I'd never bastardize a real arcade machine by sticking an LCD in it.  I suppose a home built MAME is OK... but NEVER (ever) a real arcade machine...

So, are all the new arcade machines made that now use LCD screens not 'real' arcade games?

[mimic]

PS: This is an arcade enthusiast website and  you've managed to convince a total of ONE person (Blanka)... you have a long road ahead.

PPS: LCD sucks...

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I threw out an idea as a (hopefully) possible answer to all those that kept on wishing to have big screen 4:3 LCD. You on the other hand with your last comment trying to hijack the thread and turn it into what's better.

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

...$50 000 profit is peanuts to an electronics manufacturer.  That's what it costs to pay just two employees at a Sony Style store for a whole year.  In 2008 Sony LOST 2.8 billion dollars, you think they or any other electronics manufacturer would care about a project that would bring in a measly $50k in profit?  One of their engineers likely costs more per year than that, and they'd rather have that engineer working on something a hell of a lot more profitable.

&

I was talking about 50K pure profit, large or small company I don't think 50K is a chump change for any one. Profit is profit, if you walk away from profit, then you're lazy.

The thing is,  it's not going to be profit.

God, I didn't make the calculations for them, I said theoretically, IF after everything was said and done (retooling line paying for all the costs like paying for those engineers for their time making it possible within reasonable amount of time and blah blah) they were left with $50k profit they would not walk away from it even if it paid for one person for entire year. AGAIN I'm not saying (after how SavannahLion explained) is possible. Do you understand. I just said 50K profit PROFIT is good for anyone. That's it. Get it?

[DJ_Izumi]

God, I didn't make the calculations for them, I said theoretically, IF after everything was said and done (retooling line paying for all the costs like paying for those engineers for their time making it possible within reasonable amount of time and blah blah) they were left with $50k profit they would not walk away from it even if it paid for one person for entire year. AGAIN I'm not saying (after how SavannahLion explained) is possible. Do you understand. I just said 50K profit PROFIT is good for anyone. That's it. Get it?

It's you who doesn't get it.  While major electronics corporations have signifigant resources they do not have unlimited resources.  $50 000 is NOT a lot of money as I said it's peanuts to them.  For all the effort they would put into doing this silly idea of yours, they could instead focus those resources on a project that could generate far more signifigant profits.  Why would they waste time and resources focused on that when they could focus it on something else?

$50 000 profit is good, unless while you were screwing around with that you didn't have your resources focused the product that would have generated $100 000 000 profit.  Quite frankly, that's what TV manufacturers focus on and that's why they will laugh at the idea of dicking around pointlessly on 4:3 LCDs for a meesly $50k.

[CheffoJeffo]

God, I didn't make the calculations for them, I said theoretically, IF after everything was said and done (retooling line paying for all the costs like paying for those engineers for their time making it possible within reasonable amount of time and blah blah) they were left with $50k profit they would not walk away from it even if it paid for one person for entire year. AGAIN I'm not saying (after how SavannahLion explained) is possible. Do you understand. I just said 50K profit PROFIT is good for anyone. That's it. Get it?

I think you need to take things less personally and take at least an introductory course in finance ... $50K in profit is only good if the ROI is good.

EDIT: DJ beat me to the punch

[Gorotsuki]

Ouch.
This thread even hurts me,
and I didn't offer it up.

[CheffoJeffo]

The sad thing is that I don't think anybody here would object to big 4:3 LCDs being available ... people just don't like being told that they're wrong ... or that they're defeated.

 

[mimic]

It's you who doesn't get it... 

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit. So unless you can produce a statement on their company letterhead stating: Dear BYOAC member CheffoJello & DJ_Insani are right and we piss on 50K profit. Then you didn't convince me  

[DJ_Izumi]

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit.

This group of engineers is likely costing $50 000-$100 000 per year EACH in salary, plus the cost of their work space, benifits and stuff like that.  They would make a greater profit by FIREING this group of do nothing slacker engineers that are just screwing around at work playing MAME than to put them on a $50 000 profit project.

[mimic]

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit.

This group of engineers is likely costing $50 000-$100 000 per year EACH in salary, plus the cost of their work space, benifits and stuff like that.  They would make a greater profit by FIREING this group of do nothing slacker engineers that are just screwing around at work playing MAME than to put them on a $50 000 profit project.

nope, still not convinced 

[DJ_Izumi]

nope, still not convinced 

You're just trolling us now, arn't you?

[CheffoJeffo]

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit. So unless you can produce a statement on their company letterhead stating: Dear BYOAC member CheffoJello & DJ_Insani are right and we piss on 50K profit. Then you didn't convince me  

CheffoJello ... I like and will remember that ...

My issue with your totally stupid attitude towards me is that one of us knows that professional people have looked into this exact issue (and even suggested that one of those people would be good to contact) and one of us couldn't be even be bothered to Google for "4:3 LCD petition" (ProTip: It's the number #1 result IF you had bothered to do ANY research).

If you are having trouble figuring out who is who ... I know how to use Google.

 

[saint]

It's you who doesn't get it... 

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit. So unless you can produce a statement on their company letterhead stating: Dear BYOAC member CheffoJello & DJ_Insani are right and we piss on 50K profit. Then you didn't convince me  

Mimic, I haven't jumped in yet, but they're right. $50,000 pure profit is nothing to a company that would have the resources to pull this off and the opportunity cost of doing this would likely be high (i.e. the loss of whatever they could have been putting their resources into instead).

A small company might jump at $50k pure profit, but I have serious doubts as to a small company's ability to pull this off.

[RayB]

We should probably all just shut up and let Rick Nieman have the final word.

*edit; Jan 4: Not worth wasting Rick's time with this nonsense.

[mimic]

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit. So unless you can produce a statement on their company letterhead stating: Dear BYOAC member CheffoJello & DJ_Insani are right and we piss on 50K profit. Then you didn't convince me  

My issue with your totally stupid attitude towards me is that one of us knows that professional people have looked into this exact issue (and even suggested that one of those people would be good to contact) and one of us couldn't be even be bothered to Google for "4:3 LCD petition" (ProTip: It's the number #1 result IF you had bothered to do ANY research).

If you are having trouble figuring out who is who ... I know how to use Google.

 

Look, it's all very simple. While slaying dragons in MAME and straining my eyesight looking at my tv pretending to be an arcade monitor, I had a "brilliant" and "original" idea surely deserving praise and admiration of present and future generations of ALL BYOAC & arcade related message boards users.
I promptly rushed to the computer to pour down my thoughts on unsuspecting world, obviously completly ignoring Google (which I'm sure at that time was broken anyway) expecting at least 4 stars of the saint's quality by my nickname within minutes of pressing [POST]. Unfortunately everyone was so jelous of my ideas that they quickly stoned it back to the stoned age and by the post #19 I admitted defeat (that no one seemed to noticed) and made the last unfortunate "innocent" 50K profit statement, and even that BYOAC "brothers" (yeah right) couldn't let me have it, oh no! But I'll defy forever, and forever will call it SPECULATION, that 50K profit is not worth it, (unless of course I'll see that statement on some large companys letterhead I mentioned somewhere above in post #38.

So long cruel thread...         

[DJ_Izumi]

See?  I told you he was just trolling now.

[saint]

Actually I thought his last post was pretty funny...

[CheffoJeffo]

I thought it was funny! 

[Dartful Dodger]

We should also start a petition for Sony and Microsoft to add the b&w/color switch that the Atari2600 had.
This way the consumers that have their PS3 hooked up to a 13 inch black and white TV can maximize their gaming experience.

[Gorotsuki]

Unfortunately the X-box 360
doesn't exactly meet
the quality benchmarks
of my old black and white TV.

[ahofle]

I find it amazing when people say things like 4:3 is "obsolete".  IMO the only use for widescreen monitors are for watching movies (or TV originally captured in widescreen) and possibly newer first person perspective games.  I personally don't watch movies on my PC, so that narrows it down even further.  The reason PC LCD monitors are all 16:9 is because it's cheaper for manufacturers (since they already make the same panels for TVs), not because it's better.  I would venture to guess that most people out there using computer monitors spend around 75-90% of their time on the computer reading email, viewing web pages, reading/writing documents, publishing, writing software, etc -- all activities which benefit from more vertical screen real estate (4:3 or even 3:4), not less.  Pick up any book or magazine and unless it's a children's book, it will not be in 16:9 viewing format.  Heck I even see people rotating 16:9 PC monitors for these same reasons (that is a bit too much vertical space for me though).  And yet people seem to be happy for the non-widescreen monitor's demise.  

Note that I have not even mentioned classic gaming which in the grand scheme of computer usage is very rare.

(Where did the 'get off my lawn' icon go?  )

[CheffoJeffo]

I was going to tell Andy to get off of my lawn ... until I realized that he was telling me that I was an exceptional user of my computer monitors (and, so, must be younger than he). And, it turns out, that I agree with most everything he wrote ... although when I browse print-friendly content, I use a rotated 16:9 monitor. 

And let me take the opportunity to say that I would *LOVE* to see a big, classic gaming-friendly LCD. Right now I have 3 modern consoles, which are attached to the big screen. I also have 5 classic consoles, which are attached to a number of different TVs throughout the house. Last year, a friend of mine gave my elder son a "gaming monitor" that he had rescued from one of the video game stores. It connect nicely to the Intellevision, the NES and the N64 that he has in his room, along with the DVD ... and the sound is pretty amazing for a monitor of that size.

Connectivity and support like that would be cool to see ... I'm just not optimistic.

[ahofle]

I guess my point hidden in that post somewhere is that 4:3 monitors are not dying because of niche markets (like classic gaming) or small market segments, but because of peoples' inability to understand and resist when they are being shoveled a buzzword technology that isn't necessarily 'better'.

I may give the 16:9 rotation a try again.  I think it would be much better if it were something closer to 16:11 or so. 

[TeutonicDarkness]

 Maybe I'm just living in the Dark Ages here.
I have never liked the Idea of Flimsy LCD's. I certainly would not want
a 4:3 LCD monitor.

I'm still running a 19CRt for over 4 years and proud of it!
I stock up on these monitors all the time.
Every time someone decides to "upgrade" if that what you want to
call it.

If the day finally arises I can build my MAME Cab you can bet it won't be
a flimsy LCD, Flatscreen,  whatchamacallit.

I will stick with the "Old Faithfull's" as long as humanly possible. 

[Blanka]

Wasn't there some stupid law in the US and A too that forbids companys to sell 4:3 flatscreens above a certain size?
Mostly CE is dominated by Brussels law, but in this case I thought the inventing nation has actually something (stupid) to say.

[DJ_Izumi]

The real advantage to CRTs is that everyone is getting rid of them.  You can pick up high end Sony Trinitrons as PC monitors or TVs for nothing or next to nothing.  I paid only $90 to get a used 27" Sony Trinitron, nice flat tube, component input.  It's beautiful and works for all my light gun games.  Of course there's the down side of having to MOVE the ---gosh-darn--- things.  I can totally understand why someone would want an LCD.  Light, does't produce as much heat, consumes less electrictity and can be a lot more flush with a wall.

[SavannahLion]

Wasn't there some stupid law in the US and A too that forbids companys to sell 4:3 flatscreens above a certain size?
Mostly CE is dominated by Brussels law, but in this case I thought the inventing nation has actually something (stupid) to say.

Not, flatscreens, CRTs. CRTs above er... 21" or 29" or something, can no longer be manufactured. Supposedly this is due to the content of lead or power consumption or some other ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- nonsense. For the life of me I can't find the actual government code though. It's in there, my searchfu is just off today.

I do recall the law being pushed into effect by some combination of environmentalists and LCD manufacturers to artificially boost LCD sales and reduce environmental impact. Sorry to say those idiots got it all backasswards since I see more dead LCD panels in the trash in recent years than I ever have seen dead CRTs in the last twenty years.

[DJ_Izumi]

For manufacturers, LCDs are a lot cheaper to ship and stock at the warehouse or retail location.  I mean, geez, 36" CRTs are prohobitatively large, would have great difficulty even fitting the full retail box into peoples cars.  They're huge and heavy meaning less can fit in a container, or how many can fit in the store.  LCDs, even like 50 inches, the whole box can slide into almost any vehicle with the minimum of effort.  There are a LOT of things agianst CRTs as far as the typical consumer and retailer are concerned.  A 50" rear screen projection CRT could barely move around one's house due to the huge size of the assembled unit.

[Hoopz]

Let's not forget that the original coders for the arcade games in the early 80's intended for their games to be displayed on LCDs not CRTs.  At least, according to Genesim.   

But he also said Mame was wrong to emulate games the way it did and he hated people in uniforms.

[bkenobi]

A 50" rear screen projection CRT could barely move around one's house due to the huge size of the assembled unit.

Don't forget that rear projection sets are technically supposed to be serviced any time they are moved to realign things.  I don't know if that's true for LCD or DLP, but it is for all the older stuff.

[ark_ader]

Is this because you would want a larger 4:3 LCD screen for your cab, and you want to set up some kind of petition for Lucky Goldstar to produce it?

What size are we talking about here?  30 inch?  40 inch?

Maybe email these guys for a Chinese company that can manufacture a custom display?

info@review-displays.co.uk

[SavannahLion]

For manufacturers, LCDs are a lot cheaper to ship and stock at the warehouse or retail location.  I mean, geez, 36" CRTs are prohobitatively large, would have great difficulty even fitting the full retail box into peoples cars.  They're huge and heavy meaning less can fit in a container, or how many can fit in the store.  LCDs, even like 50 inches, the whole box can slide into almost any vehicle with the minimum of effort.  There are a LOT of things agianst CRTs as far as the typical consumer and retailer are concerned.  A 50" rear screen projection CRT could barely move around one's house due to the huge size of the assembled unit.

SED was supposed to solve all that.  

[saurian333]

I think the main problem with this idea is the suggestion to petition to "TV makers."

Major manufacturers, as has been duly noted, would not be interested in such a niche market.  If 4:3 LCDs were to be made, very few people NOT building arcade machines would be interested.  In fact, it seems to be the general consensus that very few who ARE are interested, or at least that the current state of things doesn't bother them much.  This means that only a smaller company or someone with the means to start up such an operation would be likely to jump on it.

Anybody who really wants to see this done would need to band together and actually do it, or find someone who's willing to.  A petition to major companies isn't going to accomplish anything.

By the way, I see the dropping of analog broadcasting in the US (and most of the world) as a factor in that.  Digital broadcasts are generally HD.  HD != 4:3.  So there is very little use for a 4:3 TV or monitor.  The average computer user either doesn't care or prefers 16:9 (actually, 16:10, generally).  The average TV user is in the same boat.  And apparently, so are approximately half of arcade builders (from the very unscientific study of opinions on this forum)...and most of the ones who really want 4:3 are purist enough to want a CRT anyway.

Like others here, I'm not saying I'm opposed to the idea, since such a unit would definitely have its applications.  I just think petitioning to major powers is not going to get it done.  You'd have much better luck approaching smaller companies, or getting a group of people together to pool resources and take the plunge themselves.

[Spaz Monkey]

Other thoughts off the top of my head.  $50k worth of profits in one year?  That's 1000 units with a $50 "mark-up" being sold in one year.  What's the sales projetion and profit the next year?

[DJ_Izumi]

Other thoughts off the top of my head.  $50k worth of profits in one year?  That's 1000 units with a $50 "mark-up" being sold in one year.  What's the sales projetion and profit the next year?

Is 'squat' a economics term?

[Blanka]

Digital broadcasts are generally HD.  HD != 4:3.  So there is very little use for a 4:3 TV or monitor.

Who watches broadcasts? Seriously. My TV use is as alive as a Mexican flu pig. Broadcasts=CRAP.

What I need a screen for
-Movies: 2.35:1
-90% of point and shoot camera photo's 4:3
-SLR camera's photo's 3:2
-typing in word: 1:SQR(2)
-websites/blogs 1:1-1:5
-skype videochat: 4:3
-console collection: 4:3
-A-team, Knightrider and other good classic shows: 4:3
-golden section: (1+SQR(5))/2:1 (nice on the eye estetically)
-e-books: 1:1.45

So WTGDF is the use of 16:9? Can anybody give a GOOD need for that complete abritrary aspect ratio for general LCD screen use?

[protokatie]

Not to derail, but speaking of "buzzword, kneejerk consumer sheep herding", has anyone seen the ads on TV for the new "Sun glasses with HD vision?".

I seriously hope that people aren't stupid enough to buy these sorts of things, but then again, everytime I say something like that I am proven yet again that I need to abandon all hope...

 

[saurian333]

Who watches broadcasts? Seriously. My TV use is as alive as a Mexican flu pig. Broadcasts=CRAP.

First off, let me agree with that.  I don't watch broadcasts.  I don't have cable, either.  The TV shows I watch are all downloaded or from DVD/etc, and most of them are older shows (not widescreen).

Furthermore, your list is quite agreeable as well.  Most of those things would be better (or at least don't benefit much) from a widescreen.

That said...

-Movies: 2.35:1

WAY better on a widescreen.  It's still got unused space at top and bottom, but far less than on a 4:3.  I have a 21" CRT and a 22" LCD monitor, and I bring out my monitor for movies, because the picture ends up being much larger, even though the overall screen area is smaller.  Also, not all movies are 2.35:1.

-90% of point and shoot camera photo's 4:3
-SLR camera's photo's 3:2
-typing in word: 1:SQR(2)
-websites/blogs 1:1-1:5
-skype videochat: 4:3
...
-e-books: 1:1.45

Not common TV applications.  But I see your point.  I would like to point out that I rotate my widescreen at work 90 degrees quite often for e-books, and it's much better if you're viewing one page at a time.

-console collection: 4:3
...
-A-team, Knightrider and other good classic shows: 4:3

Agreed.  No benefit from widescreen.

-golden section: (1+SQR(5))/2:1 (nice on the eye estetically)

LOL...good one.
Actually, I have to point out that the golden ratio equates to about 1.61, which is rather close to 16:9 (1.77).

So WTGDF is the use of 16:9? Can anybody give a GOOD need for that complete abritrary aspect ratio for general LCD screen use?

Only three off the top of my head:
- Viewing 2 "letter-sized" pages at once (leaves a little extra space, which is usually taken up by other screen elements like scrollbars)
- Modern TV shows (HDTV, as I mentioned, is 16:9...and there are few good, current shows, believe it or not)
- Modern video games (also HD resolution)

The last two go back to my original point, as they are probably the most common uses for a TV among average consumers.  They are the consumer needs driving manufacturers' decisions.

Putting it back into this forum's perspective...for many modern arcade games, widescreen is important.  For most classic arcade gaming, 4:3 is preferable.  I'm not arguing with that at all.

[saurian333]

Not to derail, but speaking of "buzzword, kneejerk consumer sheep herding", has anyone seen the ads on TV for the new "Sun glasses with HD vision?".

No, I had to look that one up...

  

One of the stupidest things I've ever seen. 

[Blanka]

Modern video games (also HD resolution)

The PC versions show that real modern games don't give ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about the resolution. They are resolution independant. I like COD on my pivotted widescreen. I always shoot the bad guys from the roofs and towers first. And the N64 emulator shows that Mario Kart 64 renders perfectly at 1600x1200

[saurian333]

Modern video games (also HD resolution)

The PC versions show that real modern games don't give ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about the resolution. They are resolution independant. I like COD on my pivotted widescreen. I always shoot the bad guys from the roofs and towers first. And the N64 emulator shows that Mario Kart 64 renders perfectly at 1600x1200

I guess I meant to say "ratio" again, didn't actually mean "resolution."  I also meant current-generation consoles, specifically.  I should have specified that.  You're absolutely right about PC games; different animal, though.

As long as the topic of resolution has come up, I have to say that it does make a difference on some games.  I can play PS3 games on my monitor, but not usually on the TV.  While the PS3 will adjust to the TV's AR and resolution, certain elements (usually HUDs, speedometers, etc.) are impossible to read, sometimes rendering a game unplayable (COD4 being one of them).  They've put too much detail into the newer games to be able to view them properly at 640x480.

That sort of brings us back to how some people feel about LCDs for their classic games.  They're generally higher-res than arcade monitors or TVs, and provide a much clearer, crisper image.  Some people like that, and others like the old-school, traditional feel.

But again, I was actually referring to HD aspect ratio; "resolution" was a slip of the tongue (so to speak), and is actually neither here nor there in this discussion.

[DJ_Izumi]

I personally very much like 16:9 and similar wide screen resolutions.  I have nothing agianst them.  The reason I have big old CRTs is cost and support of my light guns.  When your do gaming events and you want more TVs of your own to bring, it's a lot more economical to pick up used high end CRTs for less than $100.  Of course then you're trying to weasel a 99lb 27" Sony Trinitron out of the back of a sedan and get it into a university building or hotel, you're suddenly grunting out "I SWEAR TO GOD, MY NEXT TV WILL BE LCD."

And honestly, if so many movies have to be shown letter boxed on a 4:3 screen, is some pillar boxing on a 16:9 screen for old games and TV shows -really- so bad?

[Blanka]

Most movies are letterboxed on 16:9 too.
The thing is mainly wether you consume media, or interact with it. If it's just consuming TV and HD games, 16:9 is fine. If those are just a small part of your digital lifestyle, 16:9 makes much less sense. I think 3:2 would be closest to your vision working-in-detail part. 16:10 screens work very good for me, and sometimes I turn them vertical for those typing and reading days. Reading text on 16:9 screens stinks.

[RayB]

Not to derail, but speaking of "buzzword, kneejerk consumer sheep herding", has anyone seen the ads on TV for the new "Sun glasses with HD vision?".

In the 1990's the very same glasses were called "Blue Blockers".

Lasik or some other laser eye surgery chain also advertises "HD vision".

[Malenko]

Gorotsuki posted 2 haikus, this thread is over.

[protokatie]

Not to derail, but speaking of "buzzword, kneejerk consumer sheep herding", has anyone seen the ads on TV for the new "Sun glasses with HD vision?".

In the 1990's the very same glasses were called "Blue Blockers".

Lasik or some other laser eye surgery chain also advertises "HD vision".

I remember those glasses when I was a teen, I had the imitation ones that I got for like 3 dollars. They weren't worth shizzle.
As per the lasik thing, atleast it makes some sense, unless they blind you in the process...

[saurian333]

Gorotsuki posted 2 haikus, this thread is over.

 

Not to nitpick, but they weren't haiku.  Still made me laugh, though.

[SavannahLion]

Not to derail, but speaking of "buzzword, kneejerk consumer sheep herding", has anyone seen the ads on TV for the new "Sun glasses with HD vision?".

In the 1990's the very same glasses were called "Blue Blockers".

Lasik or some other laser eye surgery chain also advertises "HD vision".

Thank you. I have now reached the point in my life that any one inaccurately using the letters, "HD," in any sentence not properly describing 720/1080/p/i resolutions or some legacy computer component needs to be dragged out and ---smurfing--- shot in a public square on live television.

This goes right up there with i-anything in the late 90's, HiFi anything from the 80's and any other so-called "technical" term a bunch of marketing ---punks--- decided to stuff down our throats. Probably the same ---uvulas--- that came up with this ---smurf-poop--- list. Seriously, how the ---fudgesicle--- is, "there's an app for that," overused for a decade? Retarded  .






I feel better now that I got that off my shoulders.

[protokatie]

Hey, everyone! Let's group hug SL and then get into a circle and sing songs around him!

Far out!


 

[SavannahLion]

Hey, everyone! Let's group hug SL and then get into a circle and sing songs around him!

Far out!


 

Get the  off my lawn!

[saurian333]

Hey, everyone! Let's group hug SL and then get into a circle and sing songs around him!

Far out!


 

Get the  off my lawn!

  

[Deadly]

There are still plenty of Chinese manufacturers selling CRT's. There are still an f-ton of tube type TV's that we can use to either replace a burned to hell tube or you can buy a Wei-ya chassis to hook up to the TV tube. We are a loooooong ways away from being CRT-less.

And FWIW LCD's on arcade machines - meh. I think they suck. My finding: for a noob never being around them they have no clue. Anyone that is familiar with a CRT will notice right away and complain.

But something no one mentioned - we need to focus on being more ecologically responsible. Those damn tubes are loaded with lead so please recycle your tubes the responsible way.

[IG-88]

But something no one mentioned - we need to focus on being more ecologically responsible. Those damn tubes are loaded with lead so please recycle your tubes the responsible way.

For Earf Day last year I threw out 3 old PC monitors, a 5 gallon bucket of alkaline batteries I'd been saving for a couple years, and poured about 20 quarts of used motor oil down the street sewer. I then turned every electrical light and appliance on I could think of just because I hate greenies   

[SavannahLion]

But something no one mentioned - we need to focus on being more ecologically responsible. Those damn tubes are loaded with lead so please recycle your tubes the responsible way.

For Earf Day last year I threw out 3 old PC monitors, a 5 gallon bucket of alkaline batteries I'd been saving for a couple years, and poured about 20 quarts of used motor oil down the street sewer. I then turned every electrical light and appliance on I could think of just because I hate greenies   

You forgot to leave your big-ass SUV running at 4AM to charge your cell phone.

[IG-88]

HEY!! Never thought of that!! I have been running it quite a bit lately too. Should be charging that up while I'm at it.

By the way, I was serious earlier.   

[DJ_Izumi]

For Earf Day last year I threw out 3 old PC monitors, a 5 gallon bucket of alkaline batteries I'd been saving for a couple years, and poured about 20 quarts of used motor oil down the street sewer. I then turned every electrical light and appliance on I could think of just because I hate greenies   

Uhh... I think there's a big difference between 'green' and 'safe disposal of hazardous waste'.

[Malenko]

for every animal they dont eat, I eat 3.

[TheShanMan]

For Earf Day last year I threw out 3 old PC monitors, a 5 gallon bucket of alkaline batteries I'd been saving for a couple years, and poured about 20 quarts of used motor oil down the street sewer. I then turned every electrical light and appliance on I could think of just because I hate greenies   

Uhh... I think there's a big difference between 'green' and 'safe disposal of hazardous waste'.

No kidding. I hate the "green movement" but that's taking it to a ridiculous extreme. I think the worst thing I do is ignore the "air quality warnings" that we sometimes get in the summer and mow my lawn anyway.

[SavannahLion]

HEY!! Never thought of that!! I have been running it quite a bit lately too. Should be charging that up while I'm at it.

By the way, I was serious earlier.  

I figured.  

eg, it's always puzzled me how a person can claim to be a environmentalist when they live in a house full of imported or old growth wood, drive a big-ass SUV, and dowse their lawns with enough pesticides to kill all wildlife in a 25 mile radius.

In California (and Nevada), there's this huge lake (Lake Tahoe) that's easily found on nearly any map. A common bumper sticker around the area (clear down to Sacramento and all the way out to Reno)  is one that reads, "Keep Tahoe Blue." Tahoe is/was known for astonishingly clear/blue water. However, up until recently the clarity has been damaged due to changes in the environment so more and more.... locals (we'll come back to that later) are sporting these bumper stickers.

Here's the problem with the "Keep Tahoe Blue" stickers and why environmentalists are some of the biggest hypocrites on the planet.

Lake Tahoe is losing it's clarity for a number of reasons, continued construction around the lake clear the trees which cause the topsoil to erode into the lake (the top soil is naturally acidic in the area so this doesn't help), increasing tourism through the area pollute the air which creates acid rain furthering the damage to the lake and lastly (and probably the least problematic) increased boating in the lake. There are other causes, but these are the primary ones. Bill Clinton banned 2-stroke engines on boats in the lake, but this only staves off the inevitable. The other primary causes, increased tourism and construction around the lake are far more damaging. So the very people who are polluting the lake by constructing huge-ass McMansion Cabins and those driving around the lake in their big SUVs or their crappy Subarus are the very same ones slapping these stickers on their cars. Hello! You are causing the pollution and you want to do what? Right.

Another example. I grew up less than a mile from a Sierra Club lodge which is one of the filthiest after spring thaw. All the other lodges go through every effort to keep their lodge (and surrounding property) clean. Yet Sierra Club members, not only do nothing to keep their lodge clean, it seems they go through extra effort to turn it into a pigsty and the proof appears after snow melt. Why the difference? A money making lodge makes their money on a clean environment. Paying tourists expect  a clean place. Sierra Club members go through the idea of, "out of sight, out of mind." I also suspect staying at the lodge is discounted (or free) for SC members which further puts them in the mindset of, "who cares? I pay my dues." Who is the better environmentalist? The money grubbing lodge owner driving their 1985 beat-to----steaming pile of meadow muffin--- gas guzzling 4x4 Chevy or the granola eating weekend warrior driving 60+ miles every weekend in their gas saving Subaru?


Don't mistake me. Personally, I think pouring used motor oil down the storm drain goes a little too far and I'd probably kick your ass for doing it. However, it's perfectly understandable. It's an extremist reaction to a bunch of other extremists trying to control every aspect of our lives by telling us we can't have homes constructed out of wood while they live in homes constructed out of rare and endangered woods.

True environmentalism is about achieving a balance between what the planet, as a whole, needs and what we need (and desire) as human beings. Dumping waste oil into a river doesn't help anybody, period. No one is going to achieve that balance if everyone keeps acting like an ---uvula---.

[Blanka]

Intel has a nice screen at the CES.
Its a 210cm diagonal square screen with a 1920x1920 resolution. Guess its perfect for this cab:

[DJ_Izumi]

They say it's a DLP projector set up for rear screen projector.  Aspect ratio isn't so much an issue with a projector since you can resize the output image to any aspect ratio you want.

[mlalena]

Now that we're talking TVs and CES, have you seen this from 2 years ago?
http://gizmodo.com/343348/confessions-the-meanest-thing-gizmodo-did-at-ces

[DJ_Izumi]

I'm guessing that from CES 2009 and beyond, demonstrators started putting a bit of black electrical tape over the IR Ports on their screens?

Kinda seems like they're being ---Deutsche Frankfurters--- though.  These guys are trying hard to make their presentations, people are trying to enjoy games, and they're turning off the TVs on'em.

[Blanka]

They say it's a DLP projector set up for rear screen projector.  Aspect ratio isn't so much an issue with a projector since you can resize the output image to any aspect ratio you want.

I know this, but my idea was to put the 2m10 LCD in there

[Deadly]

The lead these tubes contain is not healthy for anyone. That's the point ... no more no less. If I was a greenie I wouldn't drive two gas guzzling V8's 76 miles a day
Dumping motor oil in the gutters? You freakin retard. How hard is it to put your oil into a freakin milk jug and put it by the curb? Seriously people.......

Back on track - There's plenty of monitor alternatives out there. But the mentality of people that think "Wei-Ya and Jenn-shinn chassis are taiwanese crap" is inconclusive and only time will tell if these units will stand the test of time like the (for instance) K4900's and G07's.
Look in your own homes, I think you'll be suprised to see how much of your house was furnished by other countries.

[saurian333]

Dumping motor oil in the gutters? You freakin retard. How hard is it to put your oil into a freakin milk jug and put it by the curb? Seriously people.......

Are you f-ing kidding me?  I haven't lived anywhere in at least 15 years where they pick up motor oil with the regular trash.  You have find a place that will actually take it off your hands, bring it there yourself, and sometimes pay them to dispose of it.

Between that and the ridiculous price of motor oil lately, it's worthwhile just to pay the $30 or whatever to get it changed by a mechanic.

[Deadly]

Dumping motor oil in the gutters? You freakin retard. How hard is it to put your oil into a freakin milk jug and put it by the curb? Seriously people.......

Are you f-ing kidding me?  I haven't lived anywhere in at least 15 years where they pick up motor oil with the regular trash.  You have find a place that will actually take it off your hands, bring it there yourself, and sometimes pay them to dispose of it.

Between that and the ridiculous price of motor oil lately, it's worthwhile just to pay the $30 or whatever to get it changed by a mechanic.

Totally agree a person is much better off having a shop change your oil. I guess not every state /city offers motor oil pickup. Where I live we recycle - and the recycling crew picks up motor oil as well as long as it's in a plastic container clearly labeled. It's how I dispose of my ATV oil. That is not an item that is cheaper to have a shop do.  Can we get back on topic yet

[saurian333]

Can we get back on topic yet

LOL, the original topic died back on page 2.

[IG-88]

The lead these tubes contain is not healthy for anyone. That's the point ... no more no less. If I was a greenie I wouldn't drive two gas guzzling V8's 76 miles a day
Dumping motor oil in the gutters? You freakin retard. How hard is it to put your oil into a freakin milk jug and put it by the curb? Seriously people.......

You mean used motor oil is bad for the water? Doesn't it just disappear into.....that sewer place?

And what do you have against retarded people?

[saurian333]

You mean used motor oil is bad for the water? Doesn't it just disappear into.....that sewer place?

 

[SavannahLion]

The lead these tubes contain is not healthy for anyone. That's the point ... no more no less. If I was a greenie I wouldn't drive two gas guzzling V8's 76 miles a day

First off, there is a lead recovery business. According to one study, they recover something on the order of 98% of all lead from CRTs and car batteries. Even if no lead was recovered from CRTs, seeing a CRT out on the curb was a decidedly rare event up until the last five years or so when flat panels starting taking over the market.

CRTs lasted an ungodly long time. flat panels... eh not so long. So which is the better impact? A CRT that last longer than half the life span of your average human being or a LCD panel that doesn't even last long enough for your children to remember it?

Edit: On another note. Greenies have the whole automobile argument ---smurfing--- back ass wards. Is the answer really to get more gas efficient cars on the road so we can have three or four times as many of them? Those environmentalist jackasses have done virtually everything to impede the development and construction of a what really counts. High speed trains come to mind. Greenies are more than willing to give millions of children asthma in order to save a two square mile patch of land for a frog no one else gives a flying rats ass about.

[DJ_Izumi]

Is the answer really to get more gas efficient cars on the road so we can have three or four times as many of them?

I'm actually pretty certian that the driving force behind more fuel efficent cars and electric hybrid development is not the 'greenies' but the people who pay for the gas at the pumps.

[SavannahLion]

Is the answer really to get more gas efficient cars on the road so we can have three or four times as many of them?

I'm actually pretty certain that the driving force behind more fuel efficent cars and electric hybrid development is not the 'greenies' but the people who pay for the gas at the pumps.

Greenies have been pushing for more fuel efficient cars for years.

When alternate automotive designs were the norm (look up Porsche), the push was to get cars that ran on the cheapest fuels available, be it electricity, gas, oil, kerosene, whatever. At some point, gasoline became the fuel of choice (why is a matter of debate but one of the reasons seemed to indeed be low cost) the other methods of power fell by the wayside.

What happens between then and sometime around the '60s is a bit of a mystery to me, but there is something that definitely happened around the 60's or so. Greenies really started to push fuel efficient cars, going so far as to force governments to research alternative fuel engines.

Here's the thing. If the increase in sales of fuel efficient cars is genuinely powered by the American Dollar, then why pass laws to require more fuel efficient cars when people are already buying them? (As evidenced by the massive increase in rice burners.) Then there's the decidedly painful law to forcibly change the engine/transmission designs in small/medium pickups and the repeated attempts to remove them from the market entirely? (I don't care what anyone says, Obama ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up in this regard.)

Seriously, why remove an insanely popular class of vehicle from the market entirely? Here the American Dollar is speaking and yet it's the damn Greenies that want to get rid of them and stuff us into a piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- Cannoli. (Five points if you get the reference.)

Go ahead and offer a gas efficient pickup and see how well it sells. If the "new" truck is genuinely better, people will buy them. No need for the law.

I'm not knocking gas efficient cars. They have their place and their success if clearly measured. All the way back to the original electric powered cars, the Gremlin, the insanely popular VW Bug and even the modern Smart all have their place. Just stop trying to pass silly environmental laws to force everyone to drive them when not everyone wants or needs them.

[saurian333]

While we're on the topic, I'd like to point out that my '95 LeSabre (a beast of a car, if you're not familiar) gets better mileage than most current cars half its size (hybrids excluded).  That little sportster that Saturn put out a few years ago (can't remember the name) had a rating of 23 HWY.  That's pathetic for such a tiny vehicle.

Anyway, while the "green" movement has been pushing for alternative fuel/fuel efficient cars for much longer, it wasn't until recently when consumers actually wanted them (to save $$ at the pump) that manufactures responded, so I'm inclined to agree with DJ_Izumi.  As for the "greenies," the whole concept only works if and when the vast majority of vehicles on the road are more efficient.  Until then, it's just a sort of badge of honor for them.

On that note, I'd like to paraphrase Jay Leno on that subject:  In this country, we like to advertise our charitable deeds.  In this case, a person can buy a Prius and drive around saying, "Look at me, I drive the ugliest car on Earth...look at the sacrifice I make to protect the environment."

[DJ_Izumi]

Anyway, while the "green" movement has been pushing for alternative fuel/fuel efficient cars for much longer, it wasn't until recently when consumers actually wanted them (to save $$ at the pump) that manufactures responded, so I'm inclined to agree with DJ_Izumi.

I switched to CFLs for lighting where I could soon after living in an apartment without hydro included.  The first bi montly electrical bill had me going '...So... Save 75% on lighting... Huh?'  Especially as it was a basement so it needed the lighting a fair bit.

Alternative fuels are an inevitability now anyway, namely cause in 20 years oil is going to become a lot more scarce and a hell of a lot more expensive.  It's just inevitable at this point.