Petition to tv makers (your thoughts about that)

[mimic]

I noticed that quite often people talk about lack of large 4:3 lcd monitors, I was thinking how about a petition to all tv makers? From those well known all the way to relative unknowns. If there was at least a 1000 signatures I'd think they might be interested.
All we are interested is what?
-4:3 aspect,
-Resolution?
-Size?
-Cost?
-PC-only connection?
-No ghosting (how's that called? Forgot)
-whatever else I'm forgetting
I don't know how this works, but it seems like they don't manufacture tvs into millions but rather tens of thousands, short series of different models, maybe large amount of the same type would make them to at least consider? I know there will be nay sayers, that no one will ever agree, but it would cost the community absolutely nothing, some time create the petition and hosting.

Neither one of those I could do as I don't:
a) speak/write english with proper grammar
b) don't know how to build web sites.
(in other words I just nicely excluded myself from my own idea)

And if they ever agree, then we can always ask them for very wide narrow monitors to cram them into our marquees

[Malenko]

not gonna happen, sorry

[mimic]

not gonna happen, sorry

c'mon there we go with the negativity. And you know that how? As I said it would cost nothing to really find out.
Further thoughts. We (community) could go as far as establishing a saving escrow account for down payment to entice the companies to look into it. Remember we probably don't even need cases for those monitors only a way to mount it and the guts. Also we would bypass retailers so that saving could be passed either directly onto us or pay higher price to manufacturer to offset smaller run of the line.

Of course escrow would have to be established by several hopefully well trusted people so no one could just take all the money and run. If it wouldn't work at least you would have small interest on your money.

[J.Max]

This would be pointless.  Even 10,000 customers wouldn't be a blip on their radar.

[Ginsu Victim]

not gonna happen, sorry

c'mon there we go with the negativity.

That isn't negativity....that's reality.

[Franco B]

not gonna happen, sorry

c'mon there we go with the negativity.

That isn't negativity....that's reality.

+1.1^∞

[mimic]

Wow, I cannot believe you guys! You're so defeated and so sure, even though not one of you know for sure, because how would you!? Let's talk numbers then, even if they're imaginary.
Let's say they would make $50 profit on each set x 1000 units = $50,000, you gonna tell me that's a chump change to them not worth pursuing!? if you think that you gotta be kidding me.
Let me ask you how many different tv/monitor manufacturers there is? Either with their own factories or some kind of agreements with big manufacturers 100, 200? How many total monitors/tvs of each model a year can they possibly sell? 1,000,000? More or less? I mean how often do you buy tv, it's not grocery.
I just purchased a tv on black friday Auria, never heard of it, it was only available in Compu USA, you gonna tell me they sell piles of tvs? They wouldn't jump on opportunity of selling 800 - 2000 monitors? How hard can it possibly be for them to retool and cut 26" of 4:3 LCDs. I don't think it's such a black magic to them as you guys think.
All I'm saying one web page with signatures on it + collecting & emailing those signatures to every maker we can find, that's not such a mundane task is it?

[CheffoJeffo]

While I hate to be negative about something like this ... I think that you are grossly underestimating the market.

Most people in this hobby (CoinOp, not just MAME) want tubed monitors, so you've already lost a big chunk there. For folks wanting 27" 4:3 monitor, they aren't exactly hard to find in CRT ... so there is a another bunch of folks who drop off.

Of those who want LCDs, I suspect a sizable percentage aren't too upset about widescreen since they can be used for other PC games.

There are professional suppliers who can't seem to get what you think a random gang of gamers can.

If you want to start something, I would suggest talking to someone who deals with this stuff professionally first -- RickN of Nieman Displays posts here and may be able to share some insight.

[DJ_Izumi]

Yes that's chump change.  To even make a new kinda TV, you need to retool a factory to make that model.  You need to sell a LOT of units to make it profitable.  Like hundreds of thousands.

4:3 is obsolete, everything new coming out will be 16:9 or close eto that.  TV signals, blurays, video gamese, all 16:9.  4:3 for a bunch of nerds playing twenty year old arcade games that normal people would just buy on Xbox Live is a tiny, TINY niche market.

Besides, ten years from now, MAME will be emulating 16:9 native arcade games.

[SavannahLion]

While I hate to be negative about something like this ... I think that you are grossly underestimating the market.

Let me ask you how many different tv/monitor manufacturers there is? Either with their own factories or some kind of agreements with big manufacturers 100, 200? How many total monitors/tvs of each model a year can they possibly sell? 1,000,000? More or less? I mean how often do you buy tv, it's not grocery.

I think it's more like a misunderstanding of the market.The heyday of many manufacturers making effectively the same thing are gone... long gone. Most everything is consolidated into just a mere handful of manufacturers. I guess a good example would be Intel/AMD/IBM for CPUs or ATI/nVidia/Intel for GPUs These companies combined dominate so much of their specific market that no one else is worth mentioning. There's a reason why oligopoly (or inaccurately, monopoly) is often used when referring to these companies and their markets.

I just purchased a tv on black friday Auria, never heard of it, it was only available in Compu USA, you gonna tell me they sell piles of tvs? They wouldn't jump on opportunity of selling 800 - 2000 monitors?

Auria was started in 2008. I have my serious doubts that Auria is capable of establishing a complete R&D and manufacturing facility in such a short amount of time. It's more likely that, at best, they have a design department design their TVs using off-the-shelf components. That would explain their lower prices. Auria might not even have an assembly plant anywhere. I used to work for a PC company and we would assemble (that company didn't do any actual manufacturing either. They design PC components or establish specifications and a price ceiling and order the components from still yet another company) and rebadge the custom PC's for whomever we were building them for.

So yes, 1M would literally be a drop in the bucket when the EPA estimated 154 million PCs in existence by 2000. If we conservatively estimate an average of 12.3 million PC's sold a year with nearly all being sold with LCD monitors coupled with the exploding market of flat TVs, HUDs and whatever else flat monitors are being used. It's easy to see that, with an order of 1M panels, a company will take you seriously enough to sell their stock, but not enough to cause them to retool one of their lines.

How hard can it possibly be for them to retool and cut 26" of 4:3 LCDs. I don't think it's such a black magic to them as you guys think.

Magic? I don't think anyone thinks any part of the process is black magic. Voodoo perhaps, especially when trying to write a controller to talk to one of these panels. But certainly not black magic. I would take CheffoJeffo's advice to heart and talk to someone who is in the industry.

All I'm saying one web page with signatures on it + collecting & emailing those signatures to every maker we can find, that's not such a mundane task is it?

Someone already did all the heavy lifting.

No one is really discouraging you from doing what you want. God knows I want 4:3 panels. But you need to be a little bit more realistic about it.

[DJ_Izumi]

So uhh, why not just mount a 16:9 monitor in your cab, but have it so the sides are covered behind the bezel or whatever, feed it a 4:3 signal and set the TV to not resize and instead pillar box?  It seems to me that'd be a HELL of a lot easier, though you'd need to spare some space on teh edge of the wood going around the monitor so it could cover up those edges.

If I was repairing active use coinops from older years and wanted to move to LCDs, I'd look into that option instead.

Or heck, just pillar box without covering the pillars.  Those 16:9 screens are gonna come in handy for newer things, SFIV for example.

[Blanka]

I did it already, without much succes:
http://www.petitiononline.com/43lcdtv/petition.html

To refurbish old 4:3 vertical cabs with 19 inch screens, THANK GOD, we still can buy the excellent gaming-proof HP LP2065.

[Blanka]

Even 10,000 customers wouldn't be a blip on their radar.

10000 pieces is a solid market and is good enough to set up a line. How many NEC 2690Wuxi's are sold you think?

I think the focus should not be on cabinet builders, but on console-lovers. Within 5 years, nobody will be able to hook up a composite, scart or S-video (or even a antenna-input!) cable to a new TV or monitor anymore. They will only offer HDMI and DP. Yet thousands of NES-es are traded every day around the world.
What we need then is good 4:3 LCD TV's with hookups for all our old consoles, fast enough to work with Nintendo ZAPPERS! So we should get help at the Nintendo 8-bit, Genesis and Atari 2600 communities.

I vote for an
- H-IPS 1200x1600 screen of 27 inch
- input lag <10ms
- inputs: 5x cinch, 3x S-video, 2x component, 2x scart (RGB/S-vid), 2x antenna, and 2xHDMI for those retro-modernists.
- Selectable blocky, XSAL, trinitron, and tridot upscaling.
- Minimal black flat bezel, for clean looks in house, or for easy mounting.
- Automatic input selection and remote controllable

[DJ_Izumi]

I'm not ENTIRELY sure it'll disappear THAT quickly.  Many models of Xbox 360 and all models of Wii will only use component/S-Video/Composite.

But even if that IS the case, I'm pretty sure that a few companies will start producing RF/Composite/S-Video/Component to HDMI converters that will fill a need for a lot of people using legacy hardware on newer TVs.

[Blanka]

But even if that IS the case, I'm pretty sure that a few companies will start producing RF/Composite/S-Video/Component to HDMI converters that will fill a need for a lot of people using legacy hardware on newer TVs.

Sure, but that means extra boxes, and especially converters are among the ugliest. Not to mention they never include the AC brick, so that means another box!

[DJ_Izumi]

However, as I see it there really is no need to petition companies.  The consumer is always voting for a company when he makes a purchase.  Retailers take note of what the consumers statistically prefer and the manufacturers take note and adjust their products to consumer demands.  Because obviously, the person who sells the product the consumer wants, will get the sales.  So if enough people need composite or RF (Okay RF will probaby die off before composite) for their connected devices, they'll buy TVs that support it and the manufactures will take note.  Considdering that component will probably last the longest, as so many older HD devices are on component without HDMI it'll stick around, the hardware will likely keep 'legacy ports' for a while.  Granted they're will probably be fewer and fewer of them.

That and seperate converter boxes will probably get smaller anyway as technology always gets smaller.   Could be something the size of an iPhone in a few years.

[Blanka]

The consumer is always voting for a company when he makes a purchase.  Retailers take note of what the consumers statistically prefer and the manufacturers take note and adjust their products to consumer demands.

That only works on the downvoting side. Stopping a stupid product with consumer behavior is easy, promoting stuff that isn't made yet is completely impossible this way. So your theory works in one way, not the way we need here.

Asking for new stuff only works if you are willing to pay the development, or if a company specifically asks to give input like with co-creation sessions or so. I can think of at least 10 products that would exist on consumer behavior, yet no company makes.

[bkenobi]

While I agree that a decent sized 4:3 display would be awesome, think about things for a second.  If you were given the choice between buying a 27" 4:3 LCD for ~$5000 to install in your existing cabinet or buying a 42" 16:9 LCD for ~$500 and building a Viewlix style cab for ~$1000, what would you do?

Understanding that my numbers are just ballpark, you would be WAY further ahead just building a new cab and moving on.  You would still be better off if you were to buy an official Viewlix for that matter.  The problem is that small production runs of CUSTOM equipment, while possible, are VERY expensive.  If you divide out the tooling cost for a product by 1 (one off) or 1M, the difference in product cost to the end user is enormously different.

Now, I haven't taken a manufacturing course in ~10 years, but I guarantee that things have not changed significantly.  The tooling costs are one of the most important things when it comes to deciding on whether to go forward on a product.  If they can't sell enough units, the manufacturer won't make the widget. 

Just to drive the point home...more money is spent on deciding whether a product is viable than that estimated $50,000 profit that was listed earlier.

Sorry, this won't happen unless some big boy steps up and says they need a bazillion units.

[RayB]

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

Back on topic of # of manufacturers, it really is a small handful these days. If you crack open a Toshiba, it's full of Samsung parts. The glass used for plasma screens (maybe LCD too?) is manufactured by ONE company for all the various big brands.

[mimic]

While I hate to be negative about something like this ... I think that you are grossly underestimating the market.

Most people in this hobby (CoinOp, not just MAME) want tubed monitors, so you've already lost a big chunk there. For folks wanting 27" 4:3 monitor, they aren't exactly hard to find in CRT ... so there is a another bunch of folks who drop off.

Of those who want LCDs, I suspect a sizable percentage aren't too upset about widescreen since they can be used for other PC games.

There are professional suppliers who can't seem to get what you think a random gang of gamers can.

If you want to start something, I would suggest talking to someone who deals with this stuff professionally first -- RickN of Nieman Displays posts here and may be able to share some insight.

To all those points. I've seen people constantly wishing and talking about what if, so I had an idea.

Yes that's chump change.  To even make a new kinda TV, you need to retool a factory to make that model.  You need to sell a LOT of units to make it profitable.  Like hundreds of thousands.

I was talking about 50K pure profit, large or small company I don't think 50K is a chump change for any one. Profit is profit, if you walk away from profit, then you're lazy.

I think it's more like a misunderstanding of the market...

Your explanation unfortunately makes a lot of sense and I see now how it is futile

So uhh, why not just mount a 16:9 monitor in your cab, but have it so the sides are covered behind the bezel or whatever, feed it a 4:3 signal and set the TV to not resize and instead pillar box?  It seems to me that'd be a HELL of a lot easier, though you'd need to spare some space on teh edge of the wood going around the monitor so it could cover up those edges.

If I was repairing active use coinops from older years and wanted to move to LCDs, I'd look into that option instead.

Or heck, just pillar box without covering the pillars.  Those 16:9 screens are gonna come in handy for newer things, SFIV for example.

Because it will make the cab that much wider or cumbersome to deal with + what I said to CheffoJeffo

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

I already addressed the issue of money earlier in my post. You must've missed it

Back on topic of # of manufacturers, it really is a small handful these days. If you crack open a Toshiba, it's full of Samsung parts. The glass used for plasma screens (maybe LCD too?) is manufactured by ONE company for all the various big brands.

SavannahLion already explaind that issue no need to repeat it.

[mlalena]

There are still companies selling 3:4 monitors and they will sell them for years to come.
Some panel makers have dropped the 3:4, but there are a couple selling 1 (maybe 2) models at that aspect ratio.

The problem is that they are less desired, so the markup from both the panel manufacturer and integrator are both higher.

Some companies (like mine & even some arcade companies) continue to manufacture products with integrated monitors where it is cheaper to buy the overpriced 3:4 monitors than to redesign an existing product for a cheaper widescreen monitor. There will be a market for 3:4 monitors for a very long time, but the prices will continue to go up. As an example, there are vendors selling 20" monitors that work with with a long dead product from my previous company for $2,500. A used keyboard goes for $1,200.

For new product development, both my company and arcade companies are designing new products that use the newer cheaper widescreen monitors, but even then you have to pick between 16:10 or 16:9. For MAME, you have to decide if the 3:4 is worth the price of the authentic arcade, or should you just go with the widescreen realizing that newer arcade games are widescreen anyway. I have the PC version SF4 on my system and it looks great on the widescreen monitor.

[DJ_Izumi]

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

...$50 000 profit is peanuts to an electronics manufacturer.  That's what it costs to pay just two employees at a Sony Style store for a whole year.  In 2008 Sony LOST 2.8 billion dollars, you think they or any other electronics manufacturer would care about a project that would bring in a measly $50k in profit?  One of their engineers likely costs more per year than that, and they'd rather have that engineer working on something a hell of a lot more profitable.

[Gatt]

I was talking about 50K pure profit, large or small company I don't think 50K is a chump change for any one. Profit is profit, if you walk away from profit, then you're lazy.

The thing is,  it's not going to be profit.

For this to happen they'd first have to retool the factories,  they're currently setup to cut the panels in 16x9 so they'd have to redo all of that.  They'd then have to do a number of prototypes attempting to correct the problems that then occur because the bulbs they have are designed to illuminate a different area and will generate unacceptable images.  While they're doing this they have production lines effectively idled,  reducing the number of 16x9 TV's they're making,  in order to create these 4x3's.  So not only are they spending time and money to change over to produce them,  they're losing money in sales they could've had by producing the 16x9's.  So what ends up happening is that these 4x3's will have to be priced to not only include their production costs,  they'll also have to have their research costs priced in,  and then have the costs of the lost sales of 16x9's priced in.  So in short,  these things would end up exorborantly expensive,  many times the price of a 16x9.

Unfortunately,  there really is no upside at all for them.

[Blanka]

Guess it's going to skip the LCD era. But when OLED matures, 4:3 will be readily and cheeply available, since they just can cut the sheets or tile bigger ones from smaller ones. Just wait....

Weird thing is beamerland. While every one moves to 16:9, beamerland is still 4:3 for 99%. 800x600 is still the major resolution for beamers.

[FrizzleFried]

The reality of the situation is that even if you had 10,000 units PRE SOLD... the cost to re-tool their manufacturing line would certainly exceed any profit margin they may see.  4:3 is dead.  In the land of TV... it's the Edsel...

PS: This is an arcade enthusiast website and  you've managed to convince a total of ONE person (Blanka)... you have a long road ahead.

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

[Blanka]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

Only for the ones who grew up with tubes and real arcades. All the people I know that like just the games, like blocky LCD mame versions of the games perfectly,

[FrizzleFried]

What can i say...I'm a purist.  I'd never bastardize a real arcade machine by sticking an LCD in it.  I suppose a home built MAME is OK... but NEVER (ever) a real arcade machine...

...and I say this while staring at my 24" wide screen LCD PC monitor.

[SavannahLion]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

+1

Look at the vacuum tube industry and look at what's going on there now. If we're lucky, CRTs will receive the same love.

[Fordman]

Lets use another analogy!

In the early 80's when all the auto manufacturer's started using nothing but fuel injection vs a carberatuer to pump fuel into the motors, all the 'shade tree' mechanics went nuts! All they had to do was a rebuild or replace of the carb, maybe trace down a vacuum line leak or change the air filter. Now with fuel injections, you have the injector, O2 sensors, catalytic convertors and other electronic components. You had many carb manufacturer's making aftermarket carbs because there were millions on the road. As time went by, the older cars that needed carbs were either being junked or the race car and/or restoration crowd bought them all up. You can still buy a new carb, but at a premium price and the market is 2% of what it was.

So to have a manufacturer make 4:3 monitors a for niche crowd would be more then just a tooling investment. You have research and developement, governmental regulation, shipping to retailer and finally advertising.

So to have a 4:3 lcd monitor to be manufactured for a niche hobby wouldnt be cost effective for the manufacturer or buyer. Realistically, could you afford $800.00 - $1,200 for a 27" 4:3 LCD monitor when all the 27" 16:9 HDTV-monitors are about $250.00 to $350.00 (depending on brand)? I think they would sit on a shelf for a long time untill the retailers decides to get a manufacturer credit for them so they can discount them. 

Back to the carb vs injector analogy, you cant buy a new vehicle that isnt fuel injected and to buy a new carb, most auto stores dont carry them as they are a special order part. Look in any of the auto magazines, the carbs are at a premium. Most junk yards have scrapped them for their metals.

Just some thoughts!

Fordman

[SavannahLion]

So... what... it would be a Multiple Auto-mobile Emulator? And instead of MAMEDev, it would be uh... MAmEMech?  

[Ginsu Victim]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

Only for the ones who grew up with tubes and real arcades. All the people I know that like just the games, like blocky LCD mame versions of the games perfectly,

Where the hell is genesim when you need him?

[CheffoJeffo]

PPS: LCD sucks... if you really want to do something for this hobby,  get Wells Gardner to start producing 19" CRTs again.

Only for the ones who grew up with tubes and real arcades. All the people I know that like just the games, like blocky LCD mame versions of the games perfectly,

Where the hell is genesim when you need him?

You're welcome.

[DJ_Izumi]

What can i say...I'm a purist.  I'd never bastardize a real arcade machine by sticking an LCD in it.  I suppose a home built MAME is OK... but NEVER (ever) a real arcade machine...

So, are all the new arcade machines made that now use LCD screens not 'real' arcade games?

[mimic]

PS: This is an arcade enthusiast website and  you've managed to convince a total of ONE person (Blanka)... you have a long road ahead.

PPS: LCD sucks...

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I threw out an idea as a (hopefully) possible answer to all those that kept on wishing to have big screen 4:3 LCD. You on the other hand with your last comment trying to hijack the thread and turn it into what's better.

The only way an "idea" like this can work, is YOU get the cash to PAY a factory to make these 10,000 monitors for you, and YOU sell them, (since you are the one so sure there is a market). That's how it works in reality.

...$50 000 profit is peanuts to an electronics manufacturer.  That's what it costs to pay just two employees at a Sony Style store for a whole year.  In 2008 Sony LOST 2.8 billion dollars, you think they or any other electronics manufacturer would care about a project that would bring in a measly $50k in profit?  One of their engineers likely costs more per year than that, and they'd rather have that engineer working on something a hell of a lot more profitable.

&

I was talking about 50K pure profit, large or small company I don't think 50K is a chump change for any one. Profit is profit, if you walk away from profit, then you're lazy.

The thing is,  it's not going to be profit.

God, I didn't make the calculations for them, I said theoretically, IF after everything was said and done (retooling line paying for all the costs like paying for those engineers for their time making it possible within reasonable amount of time and blah blah) they were left with $50k profit they would not walk away from it even if it paid for one person for entire year. AGAIN I'm not saying (after how SavannahLion explained) is possible. Do you understand. I just said 50K profit PROFIT is good for anyone. That's it. Get it?

[DJ_Izumi]

God, I didn't make the calculations for them, I said theoretically, IF after everything was said and done (retooling line paying for all the costs like paying for those engineers for their time making it possible within reasonable amount of time and blah blah) they were left with $50k profit they would not walk away from it even if it paid for one person for entire year. AGAIN I'm not saying (after how SavannahLion explained) is possible. Do you understand. I just said 50K profit PROFIT is good for anyone. That's it. Get it?

It's you who doesn't get it.  While major electronics corporations have signifigant resources they do not have unlimited resources.  $50 000 is NOT a lot of money as I said it's peanuts to them.  For all the effort they would put into doing this silly idea of yours, they could instead focus those resources on a project that could generate far more signifigant profits.  Why would they waste time and resources focused on that when they could focus it on something else?

$50 000 profit is good, unless while you were screwing around with that you didn't have your resources focused the product that would have generated $100 000 000 profit.  Quite frankly, that's what TV manufacturers focus on and that's why they will laugh at the idea of dicking around pointlessly on 4:3 LCDs for a meesly $50k.

[CheffoJeffo]

God, I didn't make the calculations for them, I said theoretically, IF after everything was said and done (retooling line paying for all the costs like paying for those engineers for their time making it possible within reasonable amount of time and blah blah) they were left with $50k profit they would not walk away from it even if it paid for one person for entire year. AGAIN I'm not saying (after how SavannahLion explained) is possible. Do you understand. I just said 50K profit PROFIT is good for anyone. That's it. Get it?

I think you need to take things less personally and take at least an introductory course in finance ... $50K in profit is only good if the ROI is good.

EDIT: DJ beat me to the punch

[Gorotsuki]

Ouch.
This thread even hurts me,
and I didn't offer it up.

[CheffoJeffo]

The sad thing is that I don't think anybody here would object to big 4:3 LCDs being available ... people just don't like being told that they're wrong ... or that they're defeated.

 

[mimic]

It's you who doesn't get it... 

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit. So unless you can produce a statement on their company letterhead stating: Dear BYOAC member CheffoJello & DJ_Insani are right and we piss on 50K profit. Then you didn't convince me  

[DJ_Izumi]

You and CheffoJello don't convince me at all because you and I, all are just speculating. So even if you're 99% right that leaves 1% that there is a line unused and few engineers standing around, playing MAME in their cubicles, that they wouldn't mind putting them to work for 50K profit.

This group of engineers is likely costing $50 000-$100 000 per year EACH in salary, plus the cost of their work space, benifits and stuff like that.  They would make a greater profit by FIREING this group of do nothing slacker engineers that are just screwing around at work playing MAME than to put them on a $50 000 profit project.