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Poll

Any good?

YES!
19 (20%)
NO!
2 (2.1%)
Don't own one - I'm also here looking for the short answer!
74 (77.9%)

Total Members Voted: 95

  

Author Topic: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?  (Read 37561 times)

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Ragtag83

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2009, 01:08:39 pm »
Some just want to know if others are happy with theirs.   If people are not happy with theirs, they probably won't spend the money to try it themselves.

But just because I'm happy with mine doesn't mean you would be with yours. There are things I don't like about it and things I do.

What I consider acceptable may be unacceptable to others.

I second that. I am using the AimTrak as it's own system. No arcade machine yet. My primary purpose for the AimTrak right now is a portable system where I can grab the guns, leds, and a harddrive and hook it up elsewhere.  My primary use is probably much different than others, so my opinions on how I like it will differ. For example I favor the no need for drivers very highly, while others on a dedicated machine may not care as much as I. Even accuracy will be favored differently. Obviously we all want it to be perfect, but it may work well enough to make some happy and not others. So as much as you want and easy answer, that answer may be wrong for you. Best way is to read through the posts, and as much time that has been spent arguing this issue we all could have reread all the posts on the AimTrak and make our own conclusion of if we wanted to buy or not...or wait for more info.

Ginsu Victim

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2009, 01:10:04 pm »
 :applaud:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2009, 01:12:17 pm »

 but I am reluctant to compare it favorably to the technology used in the arcades.  

Thats an interesting comment.

I have looked at the technology used in arcades.
There are three main types of arcade gun:

Optical:
These are largely immune to distance and other positional issues but are inherently inaccurate, especially at screen edge. They rely on the screen scanning a black frame then a white frame when the trigger is pulled in order to sense the CRT beam position. This means they dont have any tracking ability at all.  Wont work on LCD .

Early image sensing:
The Sega system. This used a very expensive large camera and lens in the gun and a number of switched LEDs around the screen. Despite the complexity and cost (check out the cost of the gun for this system on Happ!) this was never a very reliable nor accurate system, especially when used with CRT screens. It also suffered from frequent failures of the LED boards.

Time Crisis system:
This uses a similar setup to the Aimtrak but has LEDs positioned at each side of the screen. This is accurate but I have only tried this system once, and the gun was located at a fixed position a long distance from the screen, so it was not possible to check accuracy after movement but I suspect it would become inaccurate. I also suspect this system has a large minimum screen distance.
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:14:01 pm by AndyWarne »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2009, 01:14:15 pm »
Chripes, I don't see what the problem is with a poll and "short answer". It's not much different than relying on Amazon reviews and ratings for a product. If in the end you're not happy with what you bought, well TS, it happens all the time with every category of product.  There's always going to be a gamble when purchasing something you haven't inspected firsthand, but I guess this hobby has more than the usual share of OCD and perfectionist personality types. Personally I think 15 yes and 1 no puts this product more in the "safe bet" category for most people.

Back to the angled screen topic: is the driver smart enough to process the screen shape as a trapezoid rather than a rectangle?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:15:58 pm by RayB »
NO MORE!!

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2009, 01:18:26 pm »
Chripes, I don't see what the problem is with a poll and "short answer". It's not much different than relying on Amazon reviews and ratings for a product.

It's completely different. Reading through reviews on Amazon means actually reading and making up your own mind. Amazon doesn't say "Yes, buy this!" or "No, avoid it!" Even the system of 5 stars there is better than yes or no.

bkenobi

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2009, 02:03:09 pm »
When I use the Amazon rating system, I read a handful of reviews for high and low ratings to see what people are complaining about or praising.  The negative comments could be real issues or just nit-picky gripes.  The positives could be people who have no clue what the product is capable of.  This is a simple poll that says "Ugg, product good/bad".  If each reply had a yes/no and a simple reason why then it would be just as useful as Amazon.  BUT, that's not a reply to "Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?"

Just my opinion, so take it as that.   :cheers:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2009, 02:08:57 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

That sounds like a simple no to me, frankly.   :dunno
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2009, 02:27:45 pm »
Seems like you are intolerant of opinions that differ from yours.  Calling the process "masturbatory and unnecessary" seems a bit anal.  If you had provided this product, would you be so critical of those who like the performance of this product even if it isn't perfect?  

If you can't or won't take the time to read and understand information others have literally taken days to to compile and have already posted here, then you are simply waiting for some magic sign from above that may or may not really help you know if you made the right decision.

If it was my product, this "process" you endorse would tick me off.  It's no fun answering the same questions over and over and have potential customers sitting on the fence because they want to see what the guy sitting next to them is going to do.  It's even less fun when someone, based on someone else's endorsement, buys a product expecting it to do X, and having them be unhappy because they wanted to do Y.....and then drag it through the mud.  If it sounds good to you, after reading all that has been written, buy it already.   :banghead:

FWIW, I spent several more hours last night with it and it's really growing on me.  It requires some fairly strict discipline in keeping the gun level to the screen, and may not be the answer for someone with a friend who "don't take to tellin' too good", but the reward is really good accuracy (after calibrating six times  :P).  I found myself doing very well with Point Blank, cursor on for diagnostic purposes, but being ignored 95% of the time.  But I am experiencing a new issue, unfortunately.  Halfway through a game of T2, I noticed my trigger going inactive for short periods of time.  So I went to the control panel and noticed that sometimes the trigger would register as Button 1 and sometimes as Button2, indicating that the gun seemed to be loosing the IR markers.  This weirdness persisted through reboot.  This morning, I plugged it in, and now it doesn't seem to be doing it.

The other issue seems to be a Point Blank thing, but it may be related to something in the way the gun firmware is interacting with it.  Sometimes, almost randomly, the cursor loses it's mind and goes full left and then  full right, flickers back and forth like that for a second or so, and then it's fine again. It never does this vertically, only horizontally.  Anyone seen this behavior and have a solution?  It's the only thing standing in the way of a real, positive test with that title.

This came in while I was typing, so another monster post, I guess....

Optical:
These are largely immune to distance and other positional issues but are inherently inaccurate, especially at screen edge. They rely on the screen scanning a black frame then a white frame when the trigger is pulled in order to sense the CRT beam position. This means they dont have any tracking ability at all.  Wont work on LCD .

Sorry Andy, but that's "bollocks" (did I use that correctly? ;))   Yes, they do suffer from some issues at the screen edge, but "inherently inaccurate" is an intentional attempt to make the technology look worse than it is.  If you believe that, you haven't played on a system with working hardware.  My PS2 setup is very, very accurate using this technology (with the exception of screen edge), doesn't care how close you are, how tall you are, how or whether you tilt the gun, etc.  You get the idea.  But no, it does not work on LCD's, and there is no real "plug and play" analog on the PC for the arcade optical system.  That is an important consideration.

Quote
Early image sensing:
The Sega system. This used a very expensive large camera and lens in the gun and a number of switched LEDs around the screen. Despite the complexity and cost (check out the cost of the gun for this system on Happ!) this was never a very reliable nor accurate system, especially when used with CRT screens. It also suffered from frequent failures of the LED boards.

Not surprising.  This type of approach needs fast hardware and small cameras with high resolution.  It stands to reason that early attempts would be bulky, expensive and not reliable.  I remember the time when I was dealing with a group of scientist folks who were pioneering optical gesture recognition and the systems were clunky, very expensive and they only sort of worked.  That's ancient history in the technology timeline.

Quote
Time Crisis system:
This uses a similar setup to the Aimtrak but has LEDs positioned at each side of the screen. This is accurate but I have only tried this system once, and the gun was located at a fixed position a long distance from the screen, so it was not possible to check accuracy after movement but I suspect it would become inaccurate. I also suspect this system has a large minimum screen distance.

It's no further than where I need to use the Aimtrak on my setup, and I think the TC screens are larger.  It's also much more tolerant to tilt because of those extra emitters and the code that is processing their positions.

Don't get me wrong, I like the product.  Once the niggling little issues get sorted, I think it will suit the needs of 70% of the folks out there who have been looking for a solution.  It just doesn't have the "anyone can pick up and play" aspects that real arcade systems lay a lot of importance upon.  The accuracy is there (after some fiddling and a learning process) but not the "user friendliness", IMHO.
 
RandyT
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 04:13:41 pm by RandyT »

Deadly

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2009, 02:40:52 pm »
The poll is unfortunately too little to go off of.
At least with rating systems like Newegg.com you can not only look at the star ratings but you also get to read about the end user experience. It doesn;t take long to realize if the person is a chuckle head and gives an unwarranted negative. But if you see people making the same comments there has to be merit to it.

Beretta

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2009, 03:20:18 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

That sounds like a simple no to me, frankly.   :dunno
you know i have to vote this as most valuable post in this entire thread. (no im not being sarcastic)


2 people sit down at a restaurant to have a meal, when it comes Person A asks Person B "hows your meal?"
Person B replies "it taste good.. but"
Person A: "but?"
Person B: "but it's cold and not what i ordered"

was the meal good?



personally like randy had mentioned in the arcade you picked up and used.. that is what i want, i want maximum flexibility between players and holding positions without constant recalibration or rules on lighting and orintation.. the system should be reasonably accurate regardless of it's method, accuracy is not a feature its' a requirement much like cars come with wheels as standard :P

the simple answer from what i seen is, buy if you can follow some strict rules and can accept those limitations.
if not then wait for improvement or keep looking.

Anyone got change for a dollar?
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Ginsu Victim

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2009, 03:24:00 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

That sounds like a simple no to me, frankly.   :dunno

Even though I've said that if I were to answer, it would be a YES?

I like the Aimtrak, but I'm willing to adjust to the issues it has. Others might not be so forgiving.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2009, 03:27:37 pm »
3 pages and still growing in a "cut the crap" thread.

Ginsu Victim

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2009, 03:28:22 pm »
Hard to do it when so many of us are full of it. ;D

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2009, 03:29:03 pm »
You just need a polling template rather than the Yes/No/Not Applicable poll up top.

So for everyone who has typed up a review, you could have them edit in the following template at the top of their post:

Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[     ]   Ease of setup/calibration
[     ]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[     ]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[     ]   Works consistently
[     ]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[ ]   LCD monitor
[ ]   Arcade monitor
[ ]   CRT monitor
[ ]   Television

With

[ ]   Clear bezel glass
[ ]   Smoked bezel glass
[ ]   No bezel glass
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2009, 03:33:44 pm »
Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[4.5]   Ease of setup/calibration
[4.0]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[2.5]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[5.0]   Works consistently
[4.0]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[  ]   LCD monitor
[  ]   Arcade monitor
[X]   CRT monitor (19" 4:3 640x480)
[  ]   Television

With

[  ]   Clear bezel glass
[X]   Smoked bezel glass
[  ]   No bezel glass
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 04:03:04 pm by Ginsu Victim »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2009, 03:57:50 pm »
personally like randy had mentioned in the arcade you picked up and used.. that is what i want, i want maximum flexibility between players and holding positions without constant recalibration or rules on lighting and orintation.. the system should be reasonably accurate regardless of it's method, accuracy is not a feature its' a requirement much like cars come with wheels as standard :P

I think this is the basis of the yes/no debate, and the reason it is not a simple answer. You are looking for a yes/no answer to flexibility, calibration and rules on lighting and orientation. And for you, accuracy is a requirement. But for someone else, they want a yes/no answer to the whether or not this allows them to have fun playing lightgun games. And to someone else, they may want a yes/no answer to can I play all light gun games with this. That's why it is not not a simple yes/no answer.

FWIW, I answered yes. Yes, I think the Aimtrak is any good.

FWIW, I spent several more hours last night with it and it's really growing on me.  It requires some fairly strict discipline in keeping the gun level to the screen, and may not be the answer for someone with a friend who "don't take to tellin' too good", but the reward is really good accuracy (after calibrating six times  :P).  I found myself doing very well with Point Blank, cursor on for diagnostic purposes, but being ignored 95% of the time.  But I am experiencing a new issue, unfortunately.  Halfway through a game of T2, I noticed my trigger going inactive for short periods of time.  So I went to the control panel and noticed that sometimes the trigger would register as Button 1 and sometimes as Button2, indicating that the gun seemed to be loosing the IR markers.  This weirdness persisted through reboot.  This morning, I plugged it in, and now it doesn't seem to be doing it.

I feel the same way. The more time I spend with it, I the more I like it - but the more I learn to play within its rules too. I now sit on a stool and shoot with the gun in (roughly) the same position every time. This allows me to switch games and not worry about recalibrating between them. I haven't yet hooked up my second gun yet, so I have yet to determine the best way to alternate between playing in the center (1 player) or off to the side (2 player).

I haven't played T2, and have not noticed any weirdness with the cursor on Point Blank - although I do have the cursor turned off. My Point Blank does crash on my occasionally (maybe after 15-20 minutes of gameplay, v0.134), and I am suspecting my recent overclocking I did on my machine, at this point.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2009, 04:00:22 pm »
Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[*****]   Ease of setup/calibration
[****]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[***]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[****]   Works consistently
[****]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[ ]   LCD monitor
[ ]   Arcade monitor
[X]   CRT monitor
[ ]   Television

Size (aspect)
[X] 29" 4:3 (640x480)

With
[ ]   Clear bezel glass
[ ]   Smoked bezel glass
[X]   No bezel glass
[/quote]

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2009, 04:44:47 pm »
Now, if it were me, and I wanted to avoid wading through the muck, I would go to the Reviews forum.

Sadly, nobody has posted a review as yet.  ;)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2009, 05:33:09 pm »
Now, if it were me, and I wanted to avoid wading through the muck, I would go to the Reviews forum.

Sadly, nobody has posted a review as yet.  ;)

Almost a true statement, there is a rough initial review there.....
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=96606.0

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2009, 05:40:32 pm »
I consider it too early to properly review, since I'm always waiting for the next firmware / software update.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2009, 06:29:46 pm »
Bit off-topic, but why does 'optical-type' technology not work with LCD screens? I know it doesn't after trying my G-Cons on my PS1 with my LCD TV and hearing this from various sources, but why not? Surely a modern LCD can flash the black/white image up just as quickly as a CRT, so what is it?

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2009, 06:31:04 pm »
Even the current star system is lacking for me.  I guess I'll make my own.

Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :

[***]  Ease of hardware setup
[**]  Ease of calibration
[**]  Ease of setup in games
[****]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[**]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[***]   Works consistently
[***]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :

Operating system
[X] 98SE
[ ] XP
[ ] Vista
[ ] Win 7

Monitor Type
[ ]   LCD
[X]  CRT

Monitor Angle
[X] 90 degrees (or very close)
[ ] Something else

Size (aspect)
29" (27" viewable) 4:3 (720x480)

Front Window Type
[ ]   Clear
[X]   Smoked
[X]   None

Distance between camera and screen face
48"

CrossHairs
[X] Enabled
[ ] Disabled

Your self-described interest in shooting games
[ ] My first gun
[ ] Play them once in a while
[X] Played them all (really, all of them...more than once)
[ ] Gun nut

Board-to-Gun Installation
[X] Did it myself
[ ] Paid someone else.


I think this should about cover 90% of what you need to know about the user environment and the experience without getting too invasive.  Use it or don't...don't care :)

RandyT
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 06:36:30 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2009, 06:43:14 pm »
Bit off-topic, but why does 'optical-type' technology not work with LCD screens? I know it doesn't after trying my G-Cons on my PS1 with my LCD TV and hearing this from various sources, but why not? Surely a modern LCD can flash the black/white image up just as quickly as a CRT, so what is it?
GunCon's and other 'optical-type' sensors use the CRT's drawing technique to figure out where the gun is aimed.  To keep it simple, when the trigger is pulled, the screen writes a mask of sorts where the targets are white (or is it black...whatever).  The gun responds when it sees the mask and that time is used to determine where on the screen the gun is pointing based on the amount of time it takes the scan lines to show up on the gun.  If there is no mask detected, it was a miss.

Now, LCD's don't display images the same way.  Each pixel is separate and is refreshed essentially at the same time.  As a result, the time it takes for the gun to see the mask would be the same time for anywhere on the screen.  Therefore, if you could get a gun to detect the mask, it would always indicate the gun is pointing at (0,0).

Simplification, but hopefully enough to give the basic gist.  I'm guessing there's a wiki article somewhere that would have pictures and such...

EDIT:  I got it mostly right, but combined the two techniques.  Read a better description here:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Light_gun
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 06:46:09 pm by bkenobi »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #103 on: October 30, 2009, 08:00:01 pm »
Bit off-topic, but why does 'optical-type' technology not work with LCD screens? I know it doesn't after trying my G-Cons on my PS1 with my LCD TV and hearing this from various sources, but why not? Surely a modern LCD can flash the black/white image up just as quickly as a CRT, so what is it?
GunCon's and other 'optical-type' sensors use the CRT's drawing technique to figure out where the gun is aimed.  To keep it simple, when the trigger is pulled, the screen writes a mask of sorts where the targets are white (or is it black...whatever).  The gun responds when it sees the mask and that time is used to determine where on the screen the gun is pointing based on the amount of time it takes the scan lines to show up on the gun.  If there is no mask detected, it was a miss.

Now, LCD's don't display images the same way.  Each pixel is separate and is refreshed essentially at the same time.  As a result, the time it takes for the gun to see the mask would be the same time for anywhere on the screen.  Therefore, if you could get a gun to detect the mask, it would always indicate the gun is pointing at (0,0).

Simplification, but hopefully enough to give the basic gist.  I'm guessing there's a wiki article somewhere that would have pictures and such...

EDIT:  I got it mostly right, but combined the two techniques.  Read a better description here:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Light_gun

Yes or no - no elaboration.


 :whap

 ;D

Kinda makes the point that perhaps there is more than a simple yes/no required, particularly if you are a vendor.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 08:02:20 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #104 on: October 30, 2009, 10:52:25 pm »
I decided 'yes' very early in this thread - it's up to others now what to make of the poll and comments.  A point was just raised that I just didn't know the answer to, sod all to do with the Aimtrak. But then as this thread's ended up over 100 posts long now, the point's already been mostly missed so I may as well throw something else into the mess.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2009, 02:28:22 am »
  Calling the process "masturbatory and unnecessary" seems a bit anal.

Dude. It's Randy. I agree with both sides, mind.


You just need a polling template rather than the Yes/No/Not Applicable poll up top.

So for everyone who has typed up a review, you could have them edit in the following template at the top of their post:

Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[     ]   Ease of setup/calibration
[     ]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[     ]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[     ]   Works consistently
[     ]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[ ]   LCD monitor
[ ]   Arcade monitor
[ ]   CRT monitor
[ ]   Television

With

[ ]   Clear bezel glass
[ ]   Smoked bezel glass
[ ]   No bezel glass

Well, it's reduced to statistical analysis at least.....
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2009, 03:30:27 am »
Just remember that every time someone tries to cut the crap, it just makes even more crap.  If I had the money I would probably get one to give it a try.  I just wonder if there is a way it can send the live picture (what the gun "sees") to the pc.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2009, 09:22:34 am »
...and I still just want a "good to go out of the box" solution... next year I hear.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2009, 04:08:27 pm »
Funny thing is that I have two EMS Topguns and I have not used them for many months.  Recently I have had to trash all my cabs and my gear is on top of a chest of draws. :blah:

Because of this turn of events, I have a better angle on the LCD and I have replaced the Magic VGA with a Kworld Vga Box (much better) and can get a better resolution than I had in the cab. (Yes I am getting to the point now) so the Xbox/PC/DC/PSX display better thus the reintroduction of the EMS Topguns into my setup. 

Before the Topguns worked like Turnarcades said: after serious tweaking, but now they work much tons better with the new screen orientation.  Yet I cannot remember for the life of me, which version of Mame played well with the lightgun games.

Thus my question is relation to the thread (finally) is this new Aimtrak better than the EMS Topgun?  I have managed to snag a PSX Guncom pistol which I was thinking to mount this AimTrak into.  Should I work out my issues with the Topgun as now I do not have to be miles away from the screen, or should I buy Andy's cool gizmo?

Sorry to dirty up the mix about the Aimtrak but the EMS Topguns I bought from a BYOAC member were not exactly cheap, and the LED bars would look better missing from my LCD.....

A yes or no to this would suffice.  ;D

Thanks

Good luck in your search for an answer Turnarcades!
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2009, 05:01:28 pm »
Time to start a new thread on this.  Let's call it "Cut the crap.  No Really, let's cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?  ;)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2009, 05:13:08 pm »
Some people won't be satisifed until a peer-reviewed thesis is presented, and even then, I don't think everyone will feel confident in the results.

The thesis will also have to go into entire chapters dissecting the original question "is it any good?" for there can be many definitions of "good".

 ::)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2009, 07:18:30 pm »
OH man! Some folks here have way more picky needs than me.  Selling points for me were that it works in Mame, can use 2 at once, and needed no drivers.

IMO the change in accuracy vs position/angle/height is grossly exaggerated.  For me and my guests its pick up at play.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2009, 10:42:17 pm »
IMO the change in accuracy vs position/angle/height is grossly exaggerated.  For me and my guests its pick up at play.

The last thing you wrote on the subject was;

Besides me I'd say 10+ guests have used it on my arcade and never done any sort of recalibrating.  You need to leave the crosshair on though.  If you would hate that, you might not like them.

If you are playing with the crosshairs on, how can you possibly be in the position to state that others are "grossly exaggerating" the change in accuracy?  My accuracy goes wonky if I tilt the gun, and it takes a while for it to come back (on default settings), and sometimes it doesn't fully until I tilt it the other way.

And I disagree about needing to leave the crosshairs on.  While it may be a good idea to do so in the guest environment, it's not necessary once you get a good calibration and learn to hold the gun in a repeatable fashion.

RandyT

« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:06:23 am by RandyT »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2009, 12:10:29 am »
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Haven't used my Aimtrak in a while, but that's because I formatted and reinstalled everything on my cabinet PC, and am still setting everything back up.

I went to the arcade a few days ago, and played Area 51. It was actually worse than my Aimtrak setup at home (the shots landed about a centimeter away from where I was aiming.) I couldn't even enter an A on the high score screen because of this, even with the gun barrel right up against the monitor glass.

On the topic of crosshairs: I don't use the ones MAME provides. Of course, stuff like Terminator 2 can't be turned off. That said, some games don't need crosshairs, because they provide a reference to where you shot. Area 51, House of the Dead, ect. all have some indication of where your shots landed. To me, that is just a good a reference as an actual crosshair. The only difference is that it only appears for a few moments. I know other games don't use it, like Duck Hunt, and possibly Point Blank (never played it yet).

Is the Aimtrak good? Well, what are the alternatives? I use an LCD in my cab, so Guncon and Act Labs are out (I never could get Act Labs stuff to work with my CRT on my desktop in the old days anyway). I tried the LCD Topgun, but getting the drivers to work properly was a nightmare. And then, calibration took a dozen attempts every time, then the cursor still didn't behave anywhere near proper (I mean it was way off). The Aimtrak doesn't need drivers (there is a config utility, but it isn't required.) I can get calibration to work within 1 or 2 tries. And the cursor is close to where I'm aiming (within half a centimeter). Nobody else but me has played any game on my cab yet, so I don't have multi-player data yet.

If you go to an arcade, not every gun game is going to be perfectly calibrated. At the one near me, some (like Police 911 2) are really accurate, but some (like Area 51) are really bad. If it's a bit off (and you can't be bothered to recalibrate it), just think of it as the real arcade experience. After all, isn't that what we're trying to do in the first place?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:14:06 am by romshark »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2009, 09:47:09 am »
IMO the change in accuracy vs position/angle/height is grossly exaggerated.  For me and my guests its pick up at play.

The last thing you wrote on the subject was;

Besides me I'd say 10+ guests have used it on my arcade and never done any sort of recalibrating.  You need to leave the crosshair on though.  If you would hate that, you might not like them.


Yes, with the crosshairs on and you sight down the open sights, while moving around, you get a real time view of how the sights line up with the crosshairs.  If you didnt have crosshairs on, how would you know how accurate the gun is, vs you just missing the targts.  I find the sites and the crosshair dont differ by that much.  Remember you are not a typical user here, and no matter how objective you are trying to be, im sure sub conscously you dont want a competitor to have a 'win' product.   I do admit your review was quite fair though.

Keep in mind that also none of the people that picked up and played my gun games had a clue how to even use a gun.  They were mostly shooting from the hip.   Have people give it a try next time you have a crowd over and ask them if they think its fun.  


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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2009, 09:48:06 am »
Fair review. but dude.....

Quote
Point Blank (never played it yet).

Seriously, you gotta! Reinvented shooting games for me.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2009, 11:28:03 am »
I'm still working through the classics. Truth be known, when I went to that arcade last week, it was the first time I played Galaga amd Gyruss. This summer was the first time I played Bubble Bobble.  But I am trying to get to all the great games.

I missed the "golden age" of arcades by only a few years. TMNT was the first real arcade game I played, although I have fond memories of playing DK jr on our Colecovision before we got an NES.


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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2009, 12:50:16 pm »
Yes, with the crosshairs on and you sight down the open sights, while moving around, you get a real time view of how the sights line up with the crosshairs.  If you didnt have crosshairs on, how would you know how accurate the gun is, vs you just missing the targts.  I find the sites and the crosshair dont differ by that much.

Well, that's not what you originally wrote.  Regardless, if the crosshairs are on, your guests, and you, are using them.  You have to be pretty good to block them out, and I'm sure your guests aren't doing that.

Quote
Remember you are not a typical user here, and no matter how objective you are trying to be, im sure sub conscously you dont want a competitor to have a 'win' product.   I do admit your review was quite fair though.

And of course, one can also say that "sub consciously" you have a hard time accepting what I have to say because of that.  I've said over and over that it's fun and worth giving a shot.  But there are negatives that I have pointed out, and they are real, not "exaggerated".  I did the same thing in the LCDTopGun threads, but honestly didn't think there was as much promise with that one, so I didn't put the time into it.  I know what it's like trying to get Chinese manufacturers to listen to problems and fix them.  At least with this one, there's a possibility for improvement.

Quote
Keep in mind that also none of the people that picked up and played my gun games had a clue how to even use a gun.  They were mostly shooting from the hip.   Have people give it a try next time you have a crowd over and ask them if they think its fun.  

My question to you is whether you would be so willing to apply the same logic to a joystick, or your buttons.  If you built your machine for other people who don't play arcade games, I guess you could pretty safely do that.  But the reality of it is that isn't the case for a good percentage of folks here who are interested in a light gun solution.  It is fun, and no-one should be put off from getting one by my comments or anyone elses.  But, IMHO, it's just not the "holy grail" folks have been seeking....yet.

RandyT
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:52:54 pm by RandyT »