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Poll

Any good?

YES!
19 (20%)
NO!
2 (2.1%)
Don't own one - I'm also here looking for the short answer!
74 (77.9%)

Total Members Voted: 95

  

Author Topic: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?  (Read 37520 times)

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Turnarcades

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Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« on: October 27, 2009, 11:44:13 am »
There are two huge threads now discussing the Aimtrak and so many other points it's hard to follow. I'm aware it's still very much on trial and software and hardware revisions are undoubtedly to come, but as it stands I think there's many after the short answer:

The Aimtrak - is it any good? Yes or no - no elaboration.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2009, 11:48:39 am »
Your likely to get mucho elaboration due to the nature of the topic. It may be better to add a poll if you just want a yes/no answer.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2009, 11:52:31 am »
Or better yet, buy one, and decide for yourself.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2009, 11:58:42 am »
buy me one (or two) and I'll letcha know
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2009, 12:10:20 pm »
Or better yet, buy one, and decide for yourself.

Erm, will do - if it's any good, hence the thread.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 12:12:02 pm »
No, I mean yes.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 12:21:09 pm »
It's worth the money to try one.  If you end up hating it, I'm sure you can resell to someone and not take a huge loss.  But I'd bet the results of your poll will be positive, in that 'most' enjoy it, even if it can't pass 100 million tech challenges... its fun to actually use.  Besides me I'd say 10+ guests have used it on my arcade and never done any sort of recalibrating.  You need to leave the crosshair on though.  If you would hate that, you might not like them.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 12:23:11 pm by syph007 »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 12:25:31 pm »
I say yes..and I'm glad I bought them..I'm after the fun factor and not the "how close to a nats ass accurate" can it be.

I would recomend them to anyone wanting to play light gun games.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 12:47:46 pm »
Thanks for the responses so far - I'm not waiting to shoot this thing down (quite the opposite, I want it to work well), but I'm not a chancer and after paying out and being let down horribly with previous light gun offerings, I've gotta be sure. I want to be one of the first to offer them with cabinets, but I have to be happy with something for my own use first before I can offer it in good conscience.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 01:50:02 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 01:50:37 pm »
Your likely to get mucho elaboration due to the nature of the topic. It may be better to add a poll if you just want a yes/no answer.
+1

Or better yet, buy one, and decide for yourself.
+1

It's worth the money to try one.  If you end up hating it, I'm sure you can resell to someone and not take a huge loss.  But I'd bet the results of your poll will be positive, in that 'most' enjoy it, even if it can't pass 100 million tech challenges... its fun to actually use.  Besides me I'd say 10+ guests have used it on my arcade and never done any sort of recalibrating.  You need to leave the crosshair on though.  If you would hate that, you might not like them.
+1

I say yes..and I'm glad I bought them..I'm after the fun factor and not the "how close to a nats ass accurate" can it be.

I would recomend them to anyone wanting to play light gun games.
+1

No matter what we say, you are going to need to get one and make your own decision. It seems the light gun topic is one of those can of worms that everyone has their own expectations and opinions.

Oops, I elaborated.

Edit: I'm glad that you think all the prior discussions and debates over the AimTrak are crap. [/sarcasm]

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 02:07:47 pm »
I do not own one yet, but have been looking at all the things posted, trying to decide if it is worth buyibg as well.

This is my opinion, based on everything I have read.

The aimtrack works, lets you play light gun games in mame with decent accuracy.  Looks fun and worth the money, but is not a 100% accurate replica of playing the same games in the arcade.

This is my opinion, based on all the complaints of accuracy.

I find it silly that people expect a piece of hardware to emulate with near perfect accuracy of the original arcade setup.  People are playing an EMULATED game that doesnt claim to be 100% accurate in the first place.  If people are so insistant on near perfect emulation and accuracy, buy the original arcade game.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2009, 02:30:57 pm »
i dont own one but based on what i've seen (videos) and accounts by people who own one

i'd have to say no.. it's not.

all the videos i see people using it with any real success has them using the cross hair on. not my idea of accuracy when you need a on screen crosshair to aim it.

of course those who are'nt looking for "sight" accuracy this is probably a good solution.


so no i dont think based on what i've seen that it would be a good option for those looking for accuracy.. especially over a range of positions or users.

but what i do think is it has promise and i think that over time it will mature into a good solution if development of it continues which i think will.

but it's not yet the "holy grail" imo.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 03:17:16 pm »
all the videos i see people using it with any real success has them using the cross hair on. not my idea of accuracy when you need a on screen crosshair to aim it.

I don't play with the crosshair on, and it is my experience that this gun provides excellent accuracy - better than my original videos lead one to believe. In fact when I tried one of the games with the crosshair on (Police Trainer) it made me realize that there was an additional in-game calibration that needed to be done. I was using the lightgun to move the crosshair onto target and my shots were still off! Once I went through the game calibration in the service menu, the crosshair matched up with my shots, and I turned it off. But damn, that's still a hard game.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2009, 03:38:07 pm »
i think it beats using a mouse or trackball. So i guess you could say its the BEST!

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2009, 04:13:43 pm »
i think it beats using a mouse or trackball. So i guess you could say its the BEST!
Ummm, NO!  There are other guns that are also better than using a mouse or trackball.  If you currently don't have a gun, it sounds like it's a good option.  BUT, a lot of us have guns and want to get better (accuracy, easier to configure, less flukey, etc) ones.  That's the question that a lot of people want answered.  That has been answered before by RandyT's review in one of those monster threads.

To summarize:  If you have nothing and are NOT using a CRT, it's your best option.  If you are using a CRT and have nothing currently, get a GunCon2.

Oh, and I really want these to be awesome, but so far I'm not seeing it.  Hopefully they will improve enough for me to see a benefit in upgrading! :cheers:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2009, 05:50:49 pm »
To summarize:  If you have nothing and are NOT using a CRT, it's your best option.  If you are using a CRT and have nothing currently, get a GunCon2.

... according to Randy.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2009, 06:15:07 pm »
For those who just want to ---smurfette---, buy this and all is good.  Yes, I know what it costs.  But for you purists, this is your only option:

http://www.nanotechent.com/opti-gun.php

Me? I've bought from Andy, RandyT, Christian, Divemaster 127, Ponyboy etc.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 09:20:52 pm »
I had tried to buy an opti gun, But, got the run around it seems like. Ultimatly I got my money refunded and no opti gun board.

Got the aim trak and it does what I want - and alot cheaper.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 01:22:09 am »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

+2

Anyone still looking for the definitive answer on this one, hasn't been paying attention.  Yes it's good, as long as you don't push the expectation envelope.  The dirty word in that sentence is "expectation".  If you want it to be better than a LCDTopGun, it both is and isn't.  If you want it to be better than a GunCon, it both is and isn't.  If you want it to be as good or better than the current arcade technology, IMHO, it isn't.  If you have the skills to build it into a gun shell, want to have a fun toy to play with that gets you closer to the screen than the LCDTopGun can, offers decent accuracy when you play by the rules and want something that works with LCD monitors, you'd be foolish not to give it a shot.

I did not vote because I felt that that the options given would be unfair either to the product or the potential user depending on performance expectations.

RandyT

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 02:46:23 am »
I don't know how accurate the GunCons were on console's, I'm sure it was great from all the games that were made, but for PC use it's quite the challenge. I used every driver option I could find and calibrated who knows how may times and it always lost accuracy at the edges of the screen. Second time calibrating the AimTrak, I lost maybe a millimeter on the edges, granted that's on my laptop screen. The GunCons loved to randomly shoot the corning of the screen instead of where I was aiming. The AimTrak shoots where I point. Now I am not saying the AimTrak is the end all to any other gun solution, but for under $50, I don't see how you can get something better. Maybe it's not the accuracy of the arcade game you are thinking of but it's under $50!  It's fun to use and much much easier to setup than a GunCon onto the PC.  ...and that's my two cents on the subject.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 05:18:09 am »
Now I am not saying the AimTrak is the end all to any other gun solution, but for under $50, I don't see how you can get something better.

Again, it depends on your situation.  The Guncon2 is an actual integrated gun, not just a couple of circuit boards and wires, can be had for half the cost (1/4 if you look a little), and you can use it 6 inches from any size tube screen.  If you don't have spare gun shell, or the what for to install the Aimtrak yourself, or the cash to pay someone else to do it for you, or you want to be closer and you have a tube display, then it's not difficult to understand how you might be able to do better.  Of course the GunCon's also present a number of difficulties in interfacing them with the PC (probably the cause of the erratic behavior you experienced), but some have already jumped this hurdle and are looking at this is an upgrade possibility.

I haven't yet tried the Aimtrak on a little laptop screen, but I'm guessing the experience is different there than on a large tube monitor.  I'm sure the calibration routines fare better and the distances required probably won't be so apparent.  I'll have to give that a go when I get a chance.

As for the OP's motivations for asking this question in the first place, it's a bit silly.  Turnarcades, you are going to be on the "front-line" of support for your products, so if you incorporate the Aimtrak into them, it's going to be your baby.  There's no way anyone here is going to be able to answer the question you are posing.  It's something you will need to assess for yourself, by purchasing one, and using it for a while on the system you plan to offer it with in order to make an educated decision as to what you may or may not be getting into.  You know your customers better than any of us do (I hope) and there's a good possibility they aren't nearly as technical as this group.  They may also not be as forgiving, or as willing to jump through the hoops, as most who pay others to do something for them simply want something that just works.  I'm not saying that this isn't that something, but it's a decision you can't make as a third party to it.  It's only a $50 business investment....suck it up! ;)

RandyT

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2009, 08:38:18 am »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

 :soapbox: Why not?  It's a valid question.  The poor guy, and many others, want a short answer so he can make a decision to buy one or not. I have been sitting on the fence waiting for the short answer too.  I own two ACT Labs Guns, that have yet to work properly so this is important to me too.  I have been trolling through the "other" long post, on this subject, in search of this answer too and thought this post would be of assistance to me.  If you like to hear all of the pros and cons, why not return to the "other" post and leave us simple folks alone  ;)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2009, 08:42:28 am »
i think it beats using a mouse or trackball. So i guess you could say its the BEST!
Ummm, NO!  There are other guns that are also better than using a mouse or trackball.  If you currently don't have a gun, it sounds like it's a good option.  BUT, a lot of us have guns and want to get better (accuracy, easier to configure, less flukey, etc) ones.  That's the question that a lot of people want answered.  That has been answered before by RandyT's review in one of those monster threads.

To summarize:  If you have nothing and are NOT using a CRT, it's your best option.  If you are using a CRT and have nothing currently, get a GunCon2.

Oh, and I really want these to be awesome, but so far I'm not seeing it.  Hopefully they will improve enough for me to see a benefit in upgrading! :cheers:

That's the kind of feedback we need here.  Thanks  :cheers:
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2009, 09:34:51 am »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

 :soapbox: Why not?  It's a valid question.  The poor guy, and many others, want a short answer so he can make a decision to buy one or not. I have been sitting on the fence waiting for the short answer too.  I own two ACT Labs Guns, that have yet to work properly so this is important to me too.  I have been trolling through the "other" long post, on this subject, in search of this answer too and thought this post would be of assistance to me.  If you like to hear all of the pros and cons, why not return to the "other" post and leave us simple folks alone  ;)

Perhaps you missed RandyT's reply to my post. You want a short answer and there isn't one. There are too many caveats when answering it.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2009, 09:42:39 am »
I can't wait to see all of the people who just wanted a short answer come back bitching and moaning when they can't get it to work the way they want it to.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2009, 09:51:36 am »
Yeah, I mean, if they see all those votes for YES and, at the moment, zero for NO, they had better not buy based on that alone. You've got BamBam over here saying, "I have been sitting on the fence waiting for the short answer," but a short answer is just not possible.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2009, 09:58:10 am »
I don't want to make yet ANOTHER post on this topic,  but man,  there is a ton of info to mine through.  I think I've decided to go ahead ad build my own... and I've seen one or two gun build threads... is there a general consensus as to which gun is the most cost-effective and easiest to modify for the Aimtrak?   Anyone done any unique mods with real pellet guns or what not?
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2009, 11:04:52 am »
Yeah, I mean, if they see all those votes for YES and, at the moment, zero for NO, they had better not buy based on that alone. You've got BamBam over here saying, "I have been sitting on the fence waiting for the short answer," but a short answer is just not possible.

Understandable Ginsu, but the poll vote will be enough for me - most people who have bought and voted have experienced and tried to use some other kind of gun technology before, so have a basis for reference. I appreciate that there is no defined answer and everything has a negative side, but if those experienced people are swinging towards 'yes' enough to vote, then I guess I can live with those small flaws.

I managed to get decent calibration with my TopGuns by using the 'shooting outside the four corners' trick, but the reason it sucked was too much IR interference, those unsightly bars and very poor tracking, plus re-calibration was frequently required.

So, if the Aimtrak can be calibrated well by shooting outside the screen as with the TopGuns, but tracks well and doesn't require frequent re-calibration (as I've read) and other's comments are addressed by Andy, I think I'm in. It may mean waiting a month or two before I get one to try, but I think voters so far have enough experience that I can trust their vote, and I certainly wont ---smurfette--- about it if there are a few flaws.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2009, 11:14:57 am »
Just so you know, I'm one of those who didn't vote because I can't tell you yet whether I recommend it or not. I like mine, but it's too early to give an answer. I definitely lean toward YES more than NO.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2009, 03:43:34 pm »
Maybe, instead of a poll, asking for simple, organised points - within a single paragraph or set of less than five hundred words? Perhaps 250? Seriously.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2009, 04:41:06 pm »
It might seem strange for me to answer this but I am going to try to be as honest as possible.

A few years ago I started looking at lightgun options, but stopped all work when the Guncon drivers came out. The reason I re-started work on this was virtually nobody seemed to be getting good results with the Guncon on a PC. Now I might be wrong about this, and please feel free to correct me on the above.

The AimTrak offers fast response, easy usage, no drivers nor software, and useable close to the screen.

Its extremely accurate following calibration, and will be even more so when I make some changes.

It has a limitation in that it must be used at the same height and screen distance as it was calibrated at.

There will be enhancements to the calibration process. At the moment I am working through the comments on the config utility, starting with tidying up the firmware upgrade process, which is now done, but other issues to look at. Then I will improve the calibration. But, the limitation on moving firing location after calibration will always remain. Its that limitation which is causing the doubt in the comments on the forum. Whether or not this is an issue depends on your method of playing so it introduces some subjectivity.

In the original design phase I assumed that the gun would be generally used at eye level when wanting to aim without crosshairs, thus the same height, and that the user would generally be a similar distance from the screen, as arcade guns are constrained in distance. So I considered the design viable. Whether or not I am right is open to debate, and has been on this forum.

Andy

 

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2009, 05:09:53 pm »
The AimTrak offers fast response, easy usage, no drivers nor software, and useable close to the screen.

I know it can be used without the software, but it seems pretty worthwhile to install it (IMHO).

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2009, 06:49:13 pm »

The AimTrak offers fast response, easy usage, no drivers nor software, and useable close to the screen.

I think there's more subjectivity here than you are considering.  The words "easy" and "close" are also very subjective and need to be carefully considered.  I pretty certain that most don't consider the need for "trick calibration" easy, and if you have a larger monitor, one may not consider the distance required as "close".  "Closer than the LCDTopGun", definitely.  Close in the terms of a GunCon, not even "close" ;)

The first you can probably address with some updated firmware, or heaven forbid, a separate calibration app.  The second one is alway going to vary based on what the user finds acceptable, unless you change the design a bit.

Quote
It has a limitation in that it must be used at the same height and screen distance as it was calibrated at.

It also doesn't seem to correct very well for tilt around the Z axis.  For good accuracy (note that I did not use the word acceptable) the user really needs to, at all times during use,  hold the gun almost exactly as they did when calibrating.  This is another subjective issue that may or not be important to a potential user.  But I personally have seen the effects of forgetting to do this while playing.

So there are a few more considerations than simply height and distance that need to be considered.  I think it's a nifty gizmo, and it's fun, but I am reluctant to compare it favorably to the technology used in the arcades.  It more closely resembles the technology used in the JAKKS Big Buck Hunter TV game, but with the benefit of USB compatibility.

RandyT

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2009, 06:52:28 pm »
I for one am surprised that anyone has got satisfactory performance out of a guncon2. I persevered for almost a month with these using a Nanao 29" monitor with an overhauled chassis and two guncon2.  I thin k I knew what I was doing and I did have partial success but

1. I could never get the tracking accurate - particularly at the edge of the screens
2. I had varied results with different games. Anything with a white or bright background just sucked
3. In the end to make it work I used a dual input graphics card and plugged the guns into one and the monitor output into another. It was tricky and the software (both winguns and smogs) had issues with calibrating. I only ever had moderate success with the wingun software- which is no longer supported.
4. I did get both guns working but not accurate

I gave up and went topgun 2. This worked way better but as Turneracades says - has ugly led bars (that don't work through any kind of angled glass- 90 degress clear is ok) and you have to stand way too far back. I've already broken one topgun trigger so for me not a permanent solution.

Andy your product sounds like the best option available today. The calibration does sound a little odd but if it cures the distance issue then it will do for me

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2009, 11:00:21 pm »
As the basic technology is sound but the Z-axis problem exists due to the lone sensor, would making the kit with dual sensor bars bring the product to the level we expect, or is it the case that the reason it works well (although with the 'same height' limit) is because it uses one sensor bar?

i.e. is the single sensor bar design trading good accuracy for user comfort? If that's the case - will this technology concept ever work well?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 11:03:19 pm by Turnarcades »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2009, 11:28:49 pm »
As far as I am concerned this gun is the best above all other options. Perfect? No. But I want to play the lightgun games through my PC so I am willing to put up with any shortcomings, though I currently find them minimal. My biggest complaint thus far has nothing to do with accuracy but wiring P1-P5. Never did get them all to work but enough for my needs. I don't recommend trying to solder them in with a cheap Walmart soldering iron... It will only end with frustration and weeping.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2009, 10:15:21 am »
Anyone know where I can get one pre-assembled? I just want to play the damn thing. (Oh, My college memories of playing virtua cop 2 with my best bud in between classes at the school bar and grill!)

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2009, 10:19:34 am »
Anyone know where I can get one pre-assembled? I just want to play the damn thing. (Oh, My college memories of playing virtua cop 2 with my best bud in between classes at the school bar and grill!)

Nowhere yet - the hardware is on trial first, and the ready-integrated systems are currently being worked on.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2009, 10:28:16 am »
Anyone know where I can get one pre-assembled? I just want to play the damn thing. (Oh, My college memories of playing virtua cop 2 with my best bud in between classes at the school bar and grill!)

Nowhere yet - the hardware is on trial first, and the ready-integrated systems are currently being worked on.
It's not on trial.  It works.  No one has said any differently.  ::)

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2009, 10:52:14 am »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2009, 10:57:25 am »

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2009, 11:47:02 am »
It's not on trial.  It works.  No one has said any differently.  ::)

It's on sale, but still being field-tested and amendments made based on user comments. Is everyone this week a follower to the religion of pedantry? ::)

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2009, 11:49:37 am »
Yeah, it's definitely still a work in progress.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2009, 11:54:14 am »
Got an AimTrak mounted in a Nerf gun...

Still original firmware, NO on-screen crosshairs, 19 inch (4:3) LCD Monitor.

Hogan's Alley - hit everything, including innocents.  :banghead:
Ghoul Panic - rock 'n rolled, no problems
Operation Wolf - felt just like the arcade
Cheyenne - was a little tough without a crosshair, although looking at screenshots I realized this game originally had a crosshair, and was difficult with the gun mounted inches away from the screen, I was 3 feet back.

Conclusion:  Set-up is easy. Price is great. Aimtrak is fun.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 12:44:58 pm by KonkeyKong »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2009, 11:58:44 am »
Quote
Operation Wolf - felt just like the arcade

Well, that can't be completely true.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2009, 12:05:33 pm »
Got an AimTrak mounted in a Nerf gun...

Still original firmware, NO on-screen crosshairs, 19 inch LCD Monitor.

Hogan's Alley - hit everything, including innocents.  :banghead:
Ghoul Panic - rock 'n rolled, no problems
Operation Wolf - felt just like the arcade
Cheyenne - was a little tough without a crosshair, although looking at screenshots I realized this game originally had a crosshair, and was difficult with the gun mounted inches away from the screen, I was 3 feet back.

Conclusion:  Set-up is easy. Price is great. Aimtrak is fun.

That's my kind of review - specific to games, with a conclusion that gets to the point. Can anyone please tell me how well the  Point Blank series is played with the AimTrak? This is the ideal benchmark (and my favourite shooting game ever) as it is just so well made with excellent collision detection and that 'tin can alley' feel.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2009, 12:08:02 pm »
Point Blank is practically the only game I play with the Aimtrak, but I have to use crosshairs for everything. My gun has been out of order for the last three weeks or so, but as soon as I get off my lazy ass and fix it, I'll try to get a better calibration and try it without crosshairs.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2009, 12:14:01 pm »
Point Blank is practically the only game I play with the Aimtrak, but I have to use crosshairs for everything. My gun has been out of order for the last three weeks or so, but as soon as I get off my lazy ass and fix it, I'll try to get a better calibration and try it without crosshairs.

Thanks geeza! Does it suffer from occasional tracking errors, such as jumping to the other side of the screen when grouping shots? I mentioned this elsewhere as this was a major problem on the TopGuns - very annoying if you're an avid Point Blank fan and formerly a crack shot on those shooting range levels with limited ammo (the target, the cow etc.)

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2009, 12:16:57 pm »
I have been playing Point Blank without crosshairs, and it is excellent. I am on a 29" tube about 4 feet back. It really feels like if I miss a shot, it's because I missed, not because the calibration is off. Oh, and I haven't been recalibrating my gun each time I play (on different nights). I just pick up the gun and go back to the same spot I was before and play.

I had forgotten Cheyenne had a crosshair in the arcade. Maybe that's why it seemed so damn hard. With some games (like Police Trainer) remember that you may need to do a game calibration in the service menu, independent of the gun calibration.

Edit: Haven't yet seen a tracking error or anything where it jumps to the opposite side of the screen.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2009, 12:21:05 pm »
I've had no tracking issues at all.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2009, 12:22:26 pm »
Still original firmware, NO on-screen crosshairs, 19 inch LCD Monitor.
That's the only thing I'm concerned about.  I have a 27" CRT that I will be using.  If this is a wide screen LCD, then it's even smaller.  I just want to be able to use it like KK, but I don't know if it will work that well.  Maybe I'm just cheap, but I've already spent enough on sets of guns that I'm going to wait till the final released version is available.  Keeping my fingers crossed!   :cheers:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2009, 12:23:02 pm »
Oh, and I haven't been recalibrating my gun each time I play (on different nights). I just pick up the gun and go back to the same spot I was before and play.

Same here. I always stand in the same spot (or sit) and I never have to recalibrate and neither does my wife (4 inches shorter than me).

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2009, 12:42:02 pm »
Thanks geeza! Does it suffer from occasional tracking errors, such as jumping to the other side of the screen when grouping shots? I mentioned this elsewhere as this was a major problem on the TopGuns - very annoying if you're an avid Point Blank fan and formerly a crack shot on those shooting range levels with limited ammo (the target, the cow etc.)

While I don't recall seeing the described behavior on my TopGun, there does seem to be a bug in the AimTrak (or Windows) that rolls the cursor over to the top of the screen when it exits at the bottom.  It doesn't affect gameplay really, unless there is something at the bottom edge of the screen you want to shoot and something at the top you don't :)


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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2009, 01:10:06 pm »
Hmmm, I've never experienced that, Randy. That's odd.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2009, 01:19:34 pm »
Quote
Operation Wolf - felt just like the arcade

Well, that can't be completely true.

Pretty close though, my gun has a stock and a secondary button on the foregrip.  The "sweeping" motions were a familiar feel, even though the gun isn't mounted to a pivot point.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2009, 01:28:18 pm »
You're still missing my point.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2009, 01:52:57 pm »
Hmmm, I've never experienced that, Randy. That's odd.

It could be a 98SE thing with the HID absolute mouse driver.  It's not that big a deal functionally, just an observation.


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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2009, 03:42:43 pm »
First of all I like your objective view on this product Randy - bravo.
HAs anyone viewed the videos on youtube? There is one that shows the accuracy on the target at different angles and distances. That video makes me step back a tad and rethink. While people generally don;t care if a gun is off 1/4" it does really matter when you're playing the hunting games. My Act Lab guns are guilty of it as well. Just saying.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2009, 03:58:17 pm »
Btw guys, how's the gun's behavior with an angled screen.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2009, 04:05:43 pm »
Btw guys, how's the gun's behavior with an angled screen.

screen doesnt matter, its tracking the LEDs in the lightbar
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2009, 04:19:23 pm »
screen doesnt matter, its tracking the LEDs in the lightbar

It still matters.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2009, 04:52:24 pm »
Subscribing to this one too  :cheers:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2009, 05:00:28 pm »
Quote
Operation Wolf - felt just like the arcade

Well, that can't be completely true.

Pretty close though, my gun has a stock and a secondary button on the foregrip.  The "sweeping" motions were a familiar feel, even though the gun isn't mounted to a pivot point.


Operation Wolf is one of the few shooting games that feels pretty close with a joystick.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2009, 05:01:54 pm »
What I was talking about is the "feel" meaning the ratchet style rapid fire feedback.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2009, 05:13:06 pm »
Cheyenne - was a little tough without a crosshair, although looking at screenshots I realized this game originally had a crosshair, and was difficult with the gun mounted inches away from the screen, I was 3 feet back.

Cheyenne does not have a crosshair and the gun is mounted perpendicular to the screen, using a mirror to create what is visually perceived as about 3.5-4 feet of distance between the gun and the monitor.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2009, 11:00:31 pm »
Yeah, I mean, if they see all those votes for YES and, at the moment, zero for NO, they had better not buy based on that alone. You've got BamBam over here saying, "I have been sitting on the fence waiting for the short answer," but a short answer is just not possible.

Why are you being that way?  ;)  My point is, if someone wants a short answer, come here.  If you want the long version, go over there.  That's all.  Nothing personal.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #67 on: October 30, 2009, 12:30:39 am »
My point is, if someone wants a short answer, come here.  If you want the long version, go over there.  That's all.  Nothing personal.

Yeah, you've made your point, and I, like a broken record, have made mine:

What you want does not exist. There is no short answer.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2009, 12:57:26 am »
What you want does not exist. There is no short answer.

I disagree.  I think there is a short answer for many users.  And yes, I understand that there is not a short answer for you and some others.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2009, 01:49:54 am »
I think there is a short answer for many users.  And yes, I understand that there is not a short answer for you and some others.

I think the short answer seekers don't really want anything other than to hear someone tell them to buy it.  But that's not really an answer, rather an artificial act to make them feel good about risking whether it will suit them.  If that's what this thread is about, then it seems a bit masturbatory and unnecessary. 

The tools to make an educated purchase are far more valuable than a reassurance you are inextricably linked with the rest of the "hive".  The tools have already been provided (over and over, in fact.)  Man up and take the plunge, or wait until the thrill seekers have all reported in with their verdicts.  There's not much in-between.

RandyT

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2009, 07:24:58 am »
What you want does not exist. There is no short answer.

I disagree.  I think there is a short answer for many users.  And yes, I understand that there is not a short answer for you and some others.

 :cheers:
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2009, 08:26:57 am »
I can't wait to see all of the people who just wanted a short answer come back bitching and moaning when they can't get it to work the way they want it to.

It works for me.  Since I could never get the guncon to work right, it definitely works better than my guncon did.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2009, 08:32:23 am »
Yeah, but you don't count -- you read and contributed to the other thread and worked out your own problems.  :P

FWIW, I think Aimtrak is great -- it's the "just tell me to buy it so I don't have to do all of the reading" mentality that bugs me -- there are PPlaces for PPeople like that!
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2009, 08:54:40 am »
screen doesnt matter, its tracking the LEDs in the lightbar

It still matters.

the angle of the screen wont effect the tracking of the gun it relies on the LED bar not the screen, was my point.

if you have a cocktail table and you wanna play gun games, you have issues :p
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2009, 09:22:56 am »
screen doesnt matter, its tracking the LEDs in the lightbar

It still matters.

the angle of the screen wont effect the tracking of the gun it relies on the LED bar not the screen, was my point.

if you have a cocktail table and you wanna play gun games, you have issues :p

I'm saying that how you aim at a sheer vertical screen vs an angled one will make a difference, since the mouse pointer / crosshair will not line up with where you point if the screen is angled too much. My friend has a Golden Tee-type cab and the monitor is far too angled for him to properly use a lightgun.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2009, 10:13:17 am »
screen doesnt matter, its tracking the LEDs in the lightbar

It still matters.

the angle of the screen wont effect the tracking of the gun it relies on the LED bar not the screen, was my point.

if you have a cocktail table and you wanna play gun games, you have issues :p

I'm saying that how you aim at a sheer vertical screen vs an angled one will make a difference, since the mouse pointer / crosshair will not line up with where you point if the screen is angled too much. My friend has a Golden Tee-type cab and the monitor is far too angled for him to properly use a lightgun.

Hm, I'd question that logic.  As long as the angle is consistent and the calibration is done properly, the angle should be a moot point - it'd simply be the equivalent of calibrating on a (numbers made up...  don't do the math...) 13" high screen instead of a 19" high screen, no?

Whether or not you could actually see the screen well due to the angle is another story, but thats an operator limitation, not a sensor one.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2009, 10:15:52 am »
I'm speaking from a user standpoint, not the technical side.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2009, 12:28:21 pm »

I think the short answer seekers don't really want anything other than to hear someone tell them to buy it.  But that's not really an answer, rather an artificial act to make them feel good about risking whether it will suit them.  If that's what this thread is about, then it seems a bit masturbatory and unnecessary. 

The tools to make an educated purchase are far more valuable than a reassurance you are inextricably linked with the rest of the "hive".  The tools have already been provided (over and over, in fact.)  Man up and take the plunge, or wait until the thrill seekers have all reported in with their verdicts.  There's not much in-between.

RandyT

Wow!  Again, I disagree.  What is wrong with someone wanting "to hear someone tell them to buy it"?  Some just want to know if others are happy with theirs.   If people are not happy with theirs, they probably won't spend the money to try it themselves.

There is nothing wrong with those who do not hold the product up to strict standards just like there is nothing wrong with people like you who are very critical while analyzing the product.

Seems like you are intolerant of opinions that differ from yours.  Calling the process "masturbatory and unnecessary" seems a bit anal.  If you had provided this product, would you be so critical of those who like the performance of this product even if it isn't perfect? 

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2009, 12:38:23 pm »
Some just want to know if others are happy with theirs.   If people are not happy with theirs, they probably won't spend the money to try it themselves.

But just because I'm happy with mine doesn't mean you would be with yours. There are things I don't like about it and things I do.

What I consider acceptable may be unacceptable to others.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2009, 12:51:13 pm »
I think that we can all agree that the situation with guns with respect to MAME cabs is murky and confusing at best. My head still hurts when I think of that GunCon thread.

Having said that, there is a reason why these threads run long ... and a reason why people thirst for a short answer. The issue runs deeper than it does with many types of controls and the issues may not be clear to folks.

People should not mistake encouraging discussion and concious recognition of realities with dissing a product (really, how can you say that there is nothing wrong with being critical and in the next paragraph imply that there is ?). It is funny that some of the folks taking heat for suggesting looking beyond a simple yes or no are folks who actually own the product and are happy with it.

I, for one, am happy about the Aimtrak and think it is a probably a great product. I would prefer a solution that doesn't require a sensor bar and can be used at closer range. BUT, having a working solution is always a GoodThing(tm). For me, once I wade through my current projects, I will probably end up buying a pair of Aimtraks and turning my JAMMA gun cabinet into a MAME gun cabinet (and moving it somewhere where it has the clearance required to accommodate the sensor bar).

If you actually want just a short answer, I would suggest waiting a while ... it hasn't been long and your sample size isn't particularly large.

I seem to remember lots of people being happy with their Act Labs guns in the early stages. Same thing with GunCon.

The big difference here is that we have a responsive vendor who is dedicated to the hobby, so my hopes are high that we will have a solid solution (even if I might prefer another).

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2009, 01:08:39 pm »
Some just want to know if others are happy with theirs.   If people are not happy with theirs, they probably won't spend the money to try it themselves.

But just because I'm happy with mine doesn't mean you would be with yours. There are things I don't like about it and things I do.

What I consider acceptable may be unacceptable to others.

I second that. I am using the AimTrak as it's own system. No arcade machine yet. My primary purpose for the AimTrak right now is a portable system where I can grab the guns, leds, and a harddrive and hook it up elsewhere.  My primary use is probably much different than others, so my opinions on how I like it will differ. For example I favor the no need for drivers very highly, while others on a dedicated machine may not care as much as I. Even accuracy will be favored differently. Obviously we all want it to be perfect, but it may work well enough to make some happy and not others. So as much as you want and easy answer, that answer may be wrong for you. Best way is to read through the posts, and as much time that has been spent arguing this issue we all could have reread all the posts on the AimTrak and make our own conclusion of if we wanted to buy or not...or wait for more info.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2009, 01:10:04 pm »
 :applaud:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2009, 01:12:17 pm »

 but I am reluctant to compare it favorably to the technology used in the arcades.  

Thats an interesting comment.

I have looked at the technology used in arcades.
There are three main types of arcade gun:

Optical:
These are largely immune to distance and other positional issues but are inherently inaccurate, especially at screen edge. They rely on the screen scanning a black frame then a white frame when the trigger is pulled in order to sense the CRT beam position. This means they dont have any tracking ability at all.  Wont work on LCD .

Early image sensing:
The Sega system. This used a very expensive large camera and lens in the gun and a number of switched LEDs around the screen. Despite the complexity and cost (check out the cost of the gun for this system on Happ!) this was never a very reliable nor accurate system, especially when used with CRT screens. It also suffered from frequent failures of the LED boards.

Time Crisis system:
This uses a similar setup to the Aimtrak but has LEDs positioned at each side of the screen. This is accurate but I have only tried this system once, and the gun was located at a fixed position a long distance from the screen, so it was not possible to check accuracy after movement but I suspect it would become inaccurate. I also suspect this system has a large minimum screen distance.
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:14:01 pm by AndyWarne »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2009, 01:14:15 pm »
Chripes, I don't see what the problem is with a poll and "short answer". It's not much different than relying on Amazon reviews and ratings for a product. If in the end you're not happy with what you bought, well TS, it happens all the time with every category of product.  There's always going to be a gamble when purchasing something you haven't inspected firsthand, but I guess this hobby has more than the usual share of OCD and perfectionist personality types. Personally I think 15 yes and 1 no puts this product more in the "safe bet" category for most people.

Back to the angled screen topic: is the driver smart enough to process the screen shape as a trapezoid rather than a rectangle?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:15:58 pm by RayB »
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2009, 01:18:26 pm »
Chripes, I don't see what the problem is with a poll and "short answer". It's not much different than relying on Amazon reviews and ratings for a product.

It's completely different. Reading through reviews on Amazon means actually reading and making up your own mind. Amazon doesn't say "Yes, buy this!" or "No, avoid it!" Even the system of 5 stars there is better than yes or no.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2009, 02:03:09 pm »
When I use the Amazon rating system, I read a handful of reviews for high and low ratings to see what people are complaining about or praising.  The negative comments could be real issues or just nit-picky gripes.  The positives could be people who have no clue what the product is capable of.  This is a simple poll that says "Ugg, product good/bad".  If each reply had a yes/no and a simple reason why then it would be just as useful as Amazon.  BUT, that's not a reply to "Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?"

Just my opinion, so take it as that.   :cheers:

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2009, 02:08:57 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

That sounds like a simple no to me, frankly.   :dunno
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2009, 02:27:45 pm »
Seems like you are intolerant of opinions that differ from yours.  Calling the process "masturbatory and unnecessary" seems a bit anal.  If you had provided this product, would you be so critical of those who like the performance of this product even if it isn't perfect?  

If you can't or won't take the time to read and understand information others have literally taken days to to compile and have already posted here, then you are simply waiting for some magic sign from above that may or may not really help you know if you made the right decision.

If it was my product, this "process" you endorse would tick me off.  It's no fun answering the same questions over and over and have potential customers sitting on the fence because they want to see what the guy sitting next to them is going to do.  It's even less fun when someone, based on someone else's endorsement, buys a product expecting it to do X, and having them be unhappy because they wanted to do Y.....and then drag it through the mud.  If it sounds good to you, after reading all that has been written, buy it already.   :banghead:

FWIW, I spent several more hours last night with it and it's really growing on me.  It requires some fairly strict discipline in keeping the gun level to the screen, and may not be the answer for someone with a friend who "don't take to tellin' too good", but the reward is really good accuracy (after calibrating six times  :P).  I found myself doing very well with Point Blank, cursor on for diagnostic purposes, but being ignored 95% of the time.  But I am experiencing a new issue, unfortunately.  Halfway through a game of T2, I noticed my trigger going inactive for short periods of time.  So I went to the control panel and noticed that sometimes the trigger would register as Button 1 and sometimes as Button2, indicating that the gun seemed to be loosing the IR markers.  This weirdness persisted through reboot.  This morning, I plugged it in, and now it doesn't seem to be doing it.

The other issue seems to be a Point Blank thing, but it may be related to something in the way the gun firmware is interacting with it.  Sometimes, almost randomly, the cursor loses it's mind and goes full left and then  full right, flickers back and forth like that for a second or so, and then it's fine again. It never does this vertically, only horizontally.  Anyone seen this behavior and have a solution?  It's the only thing standing in the way of a real, positive test with that title.

This came in while I was typing, so another monster post, I guess....

Optical:
These are largely immune to distance and other positional issues but are inherently inaccurate, especially at screen edge. They rely on the screen scanning a black frame then a white frame when the trigger is pulled in order to sense the CRT beam position. This means they dont have any tracking ability at all.  Wont work on LCD .

Sorry Andy, but that's "bollocks" (did I use that correctly? ;))   Yes, they do suffer from some issues at the screen edge, but "inherently inaccurate" is an intentional attempt to make the technology look worse than it is.  If you believe that, you haven't played on a system with working hardware.  My PS2 setup is very, very accurate using this technology (with the exception of screen edge), doesn't care how close you are, how tall you are, how or whether you tilt the gun, etc.  You get the idea.  But no, it does not work on LCD's, and there is no real "plug and play" analog on the PC for the arcade optical system.  That is an important consideration.

Quote
Early image sensing:
The Sega system. This used a very expensive large camera and lens in the gun and a number of switched LEDs around the screen. Despite the complexity and cost (check out the cost of the gun for this system on Happ!) this was never a very reliable nor accurate system, especially when used with CRT screens. It also suffered from frequent failures of the LED boards.

Not surprising.  This type of approach needs fast hardware and small cameras with high resolution.  It stands to reason that early attempts would be bulky, expensive and not reliable.  I remember the time when I was dealing with a group of scientist folks who were pioneering optical gesture recognition and the systems were clunky, very expensive and they only sort of worked.  That's ancient history in the technology timeline.

Quote
Time Crisis system:
This uses a similar setup to the Aimtrak but has LEDs positioned at each side of the screen. This is accurate but I have only tried this system once, and the gun was located at a fixed position a long distance from the screen, so it was not possible to check accuracy after movement but I suspect it would become inaccurate. I also suspect this system has a large minimum screen distance.

It's no further than where I need to use the Aimtrak on my setup, and I think the TC screens are larger.  It's also much more tolerant to tilt because of those extra emitters and the code that is processing their positions.

Don't get me wrong, I like the product.  Once the niggling little issues get sorted, I think it will suit the needs of 70% of the folks out there who have been looking for a solution.  It just doesn't have the "anyone can pick up and play" aspects that real arcade systems lay a lot of importance upon.  The accuracy is there (after some fiddling and a learning process) but not the "user friendliness", IMHO.
 
RandyT
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 04:13:41 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2009, 02:40:52 pm »
The poll is unfortunately too little to go off of.
At least with rating systems like Newegg.com you can not only look at the star ratings but you also get to read about the end user experience. It doesn;t take long to realize if the person is a chuckle head and gives an unwarranted negative. But if you see people making the same comments there has to be merit to it.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2009, 03:20:18 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

That sounds like a simple no to me, frankly.   :dunno
you know i have to vote this as most valuable post in this entire thread. (no im not being sarcastic)


2 people sit down at a restaurant to have a meal, when it comes Person A asks Person B "hows your meal?"
Person B replies "it taste good.. but"
Person A: "but?"
Person B: "but it's cold and not what i ordered"

was the meal good?



personally like randy had mentioned in the arcade you picked up and used.. that is what i want, i want maximum flexibility between players and holding positions without constant recalibration or rules on lighting and orintation.. the system should be reasonably accurate regardless of it's method, accuracy is not a feature its' a requirement much like cars come with wheels as standard :P

the simple answer from what i seen is, buy if you can follow some strict rules and can accept those limitations.
if not then wait for improvement or keep looking.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2009, 03:24:00 pm »
It's not a simple yes or no answer.

That sounds like a simple no to me, frankly.   :dunno

Even though I've said that if I were to answer, it would be a YES?

I like the Aimtrak, but I'm willing to adjust to the issues it has. Others might not be so forgiving.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2009, 03:27:37 pm »
3 pages and still growing in a "cut the crap" thread.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2009, 03:28:22 pm »
Hard to do it when so many of us are full of it. ;D

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2009, 03:29:03 pm »
You just need a polling template rather than the Yes/No/Not Applicable poll up top.

So for everyone who has typed up a review, you could have them edit in the following template at the top of their post:

Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[     ]   Ease of setup/calibration
[     ]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[     ]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[     ]   Works consistently
[     ]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[ ]   LCD monitor
[ ]   Arcade monitor
[ ]   CRT monitor
[ ]   Television

With

[ ]   Clear bezel glass
[ ]   Smoked bezel glass
[ ]   No bezel glass
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2009, 03:33:44 pm »
Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[4.5]   Ease of setup/calibration
[4.0]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[2.5]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[5.0]   Works consistently
[4.0]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[  ]   LCD monitor
[  ]   Arcade monitor
[X]   CRT monitor (19" 4:3 640x480)
[  ]   Television

With

[  ]   Clear bezel glass
[X]   Smoked bezel glass
[  ]   No bezel glass
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 04:03:04 pm by Ginsu Victim »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2009, 03:57:50 pm »
personally like randy had mentioned in the arcade you picked up and used.. that is what i want, i want maximum flexibility between players and holding positions without constant recalibration or rules on lighting and orintation.. the system should be reasonably accurate regardless of it's method, accuracy is not a feature its' a requirement much like cars come with wheels as standard :P

I think this is the basis of the yes/no debate, and the reason it is not a simple answer. You are looking for a yes/no answer to flexibility, calibration and rules on lighting and orientation. And for you, accuracy is a requirement. But for someone else, they want a yes/no answer to the whether or not this allows them to have fun playing lightgun games. And to someone else, they may want a yes/no answer to can I play all light gun games with this. That's why it is not not a simple yes/no answer.

FWIW, I answered yes. Yes, I think the Aimtrak is any good.

FWIW, I spent several more hours last night with it and it's really growing on me.  It requires some fairly strict discipline in keeping the gun level to the screen, and may not be the answer for someone with a friend who "don't take to tellin' too good", but the reward is really good accuracy (after calibrating six times  :P).  I found myself doing very well with Point Blank, cursor on for diagnostic purposes, but being ignored 95% of the time.  But I am experiencing a new issue, unfortunately.  Halfway through a game of T2, I noticed my trigger going inactive for short periods of time.  So I went to the control panel and noticed that sometimes the trigger would register as Button 1 and sometimes as Button2, indicating that the gun seemed to be loosing the IR markers.  This weirdness persisted through reboot.  This morning, I plugged it in, and now it doesn't seem to be doing it.

I feel the same way. The more time I spend with it, I the more I like it - but the more I learn to play within its rules too. I now sit on a stool and shoot with the gun in (roughly) the same position every time. This allows me to switch games and not worry about recalibrating between them. I haven't yet hooked up my second gun yet, so I have yet to determine the best way to alternate between playing in the center (1 player) or off to the side (2 player).

I haven't played T2, and have not noticed any weirdness with the cursor on Point Blank - although I do have the cursor turned off. My Point Blank does crash on my occasionally (maybe after 15-20 minutes of gameplay, v0.134), and I am suspecting my recent overclocking I did on my machine, at this point.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2009, 04:00:22 pm »
Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[*****]   Ease of setup/calibration
[****]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[***]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[****]   Works consistently
[****]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[ ]   LCD monitor
[ ]   Arcade monitor
[X]   CRT monitor
[ ]   Television

Size (aspect)
[X] 29" 4:3 (640x480)

With
[ ]   Clear bezel glass
[ ]   Smoked bezel glass
[X]   No bezel glass
[/quote]

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2009, 04:44:47 pm »
Now, if it were me, and I wanted to avoid wading through the muck, I would go to the Reviews forum.

Sadly, nobody has posted a review as yet.  ;)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2009, 05:33:09 pm »
Now, if it were me, and I wanted to avoid wading through the muck, I would go to the Reviews forum.

Sadly, nobody has posted a review as yet.  ;)

Almost a true statement, there is a rough initial review there.....
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=96606.0

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2009, 05:40:32 pm »
I consider it too early to properly review, since I'm always waiting for the next firmware / software update.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #100 on: October 30, 2009, 06:29:46 pm »
Bit off-topic, but why does 'optical-type' technology not work with LCD screens? I know it doesn't after trying my G-Cons on my PS1 with my LCD TV and hearing this from various sources, but why not? Surely a modern LCD can flash the black/white image up just as quickly as a CRT, so what is it?

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #101 on: October 30, 2009, 06:31:04 pm »
Even the current star system is lacking for me.  I guess I'll make my own.

Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :

[***]  Ease of hardware setup
[**]  Ease of calibration
[**]  Ease of setup in games
[****]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[**]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[***]   Works consistently
[***]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :

Operating system
[X] 98SE
[ ] XP
[ ] Vista
[ ] Win 7

Monitor Type
[ ]   LCD
[X]  CRT

Monitor Angle
[X] 90 degrees (or very close)
[ ] Something else

Size (aspect)
29" (27" viewable) 4:3 (720x480)

Front Window Type
[ ]   Clear
[X]   Smoked
[X]   None

Distance between camera and screen face
48"

CrossHairs
[X] Enabled
[ ] Disabled

Your self-described interest in shooting games
[ ] My first gun
[ ] Play them once in a while
[X] Played them all (really, all of them...more than once)
[ ] Gun nut

Board-to-Gun Installation
[X] Did it myself
[ ] Paid someone else.


I think this should about cover 90% of what you need to know about the user environment and the experience without getting too invasive.  Use it or don't...don't care :)

RandyT
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 06:36:30 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #102 on: October 30, 2009, 06:43:14 pm »
Bit off-topic, but why does 'optical-type' technology not work with LCD screens? I know it doesn't after trying my G-Cons on my PS1 with my LCD TV and hearing this from various sources, but why not? Surely a modern LCD can flash the black/white image up just as quickly as a CRT, so what is it?
GunCon's and other 'optical-type' sensors use the CRT's drawing technique to figure out where the gun is aimed.  To keep it simple, when the trigger is pulled, the screen writes a mask of sorts where the targets are white (or is it black...whatever).  The gun responds when it sees the mask and that time is used to determine where on the screen the gun is pointing based on the amount of time it takes the scan lines to show up on the gun.  If there is no mask detected, it was a miss.

Now, LCD's don't display images the same way.  Each pixel is separate and is refreshed essentially at the same time.  As a result, the time it takes for the gun to see the mask would be the same time for anywhere on the screen.  Therefore, if you could get a gun to detect the mask, it would always indicate the gun is pointing at (0,0).

Simplification, but hopefully enough to give the basic gist.  I'm guessing there's a wiki article somewhere that would have pictures and such...

EDIT:  I got it mostly right, but combined the two techniques.  Read a better description here:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Light_gun
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 06:46:09 pm by bkenobi »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #103 on: October 30, 2009, 08:00:01 pm »
Bit off-topic, but why does 'optical-type' technology not work with LCD screens? I know it doesn't after trying my G-Cons on my PS1 with my LCD TV and hearing this from various sources, but why not? Surely a modern LCD can flash the black/white image up just as quickly as a CRT, so what is it?
GunCon's and other 'optical-type' sensors use the CRT's drawing technique to figure out where the gun is aimed.  To keep it simple, when the trigger is pulled, the screen writes a mask of sorts where the targets are white (or is it black...whatever).  The gun responds when it sees the mask and that time is used to determine where on the screen the gun is pointing based on the amount of time it takes the scan lines to show up on the gun.  If there is no mask detected, it was a miss.

Now, LCD's don't display images the same way.  Each pixel is separate and is refreshed essentially at the same time.  As a result, the time it takes for the gun to see the mask would be the same time for anywhere on the screen.  Therefore, if you could get a gun to detect the mask, it would always indicate the gun is pointing at (0,0).

Simplification, but hopefully enough to give the basic gist.  I'm guessing there's a wiki article somewhere that would have pictures and such...

EDIT:  I got it mostly right, but combined the two techniques.  Read a better description here:
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Light_gun

Yes or no - no elaboration.


 :whap

 ;D

Kinda makes the point that perhaps there is more than a simple yes/no required, particularly if you are a vendor.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 08:02:20 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #104 on: October 30, 2009, 10:52:25 pm »
I decided 'yes' very early in this thread - it's up to others now what to make of the poll and comments.  A point was just raised that I just didn't know the answer to, sod all to do with the Aimtrak. But then as this thread's ended up over 100 posts long now, the point's already been mostly missed so I may as well throw something else into the mess.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2009, 02:28:22 am »
  Calling the process "masturbatory and unnecessary" seems a bit anal.

Dude. It's Randy. I agree with both sides, mind.


You just need a polling template rather than the Yes/No/Not Applicable poll up top.

So for everyone who has typed up a review, you could have them edit in the following template at the top of their post:

Please rate the following (1 Star = Poor, 5 Stars = Excellent) :
[     ]   Ease of setup/calibration
[     ]   In-game accuracy from calibrated position
[     ]   In-game accuracy from other positions/distance/angle
[     ]   Works consistently
[     ]   Overall satisfaction

In addition, please mark which you are using :
[ ]   LCD monitor
[ ]   Arcade monitor
[ ]   CRT monitor
[ ]   Television

With

[ ]   Clear bezel glass
[ ]   Smoked bezel glass
[ ]   No bezel glass

Well, it's reduced to statistical analysis at least.....
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2009, 03:30:27 am »
Just remember that every time someone tries to cut the crap, it just makes even more crap.  If I had the money I would probably get one to give it a try.  I just wonder if there is a way it can send the live picture (what the gun "sees") to the pc.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2009, 09:22:34 am »
...and I still just want a "good to go out of the box" solution... next year I hear.
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2009, 04:08:27 pm »
Funny thing is that I have two EMS Topguns and I have not used them for many months.  Recently I have had to trash all my cabs and my gear is on top of a chest of draws. :blah:

Because of this turn of events, I have a better angle on the LCD and I have replaced the Magic VGA with a Kworld Vga Box (much better) and can get a better resolution than I had in the cab. (Yes I am getting to the point now) so the Xbox/PC/DC/PSX display better thus the reintroduction of the EMS Topguns into my setup. 

Before the Topguns worked like Turnarcades said: after serious tweaking, but now they work much tons better with the new screen orientation.  Yet I cannot remember for the life of me, which version of Mame played well with the lightgun games.

Thus my question is relation to the thread (finally) is this new Aimtrak better than the EMS Topgun?  I have managed to snag a PSX Guncom pistol which I was thinking to mount this AimTrak into.  Should I work out my issues with the Topgun as now I do not have to be miles away from the screen, or should I buy Andy's cool gizmo?

Sorry to dirty up the mix about the Aimtrak but the EMS Topguns I bought from a BYOAC member were not exactly cheap, and the LED bars would look better missing from my LCD.....

A yes or no to this would suffice.  ;D

Thanks

Good luck in your search for an answer Turnarcades!
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2009, 05:01:28 pm »
Time to start a new thread on this.  Let's call it "Cut the crap.  No Really, let's cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?  ;)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2009, 05:13:08 pm »
Some people won't be satisifed until a peer-reviewed thesis is presented, and even then, I don't think everyone will feel confident in the results.

The thesis will also have to go into entire chapters dissecting the original question "is it any good?" for there can be many definitions of "good".

 ::)
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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #111 on: November 01, 2009, 07:18:30 pm »
OH man! Some folks here have way more picky needs than me.  Selling points for me were that it works in Mame, can use 2 at once, and needed no drivers.

IMO the change in accuracy vs position/angle/height is grossly exaggerated.  For me and my guests its pick up at play.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #112 on: November 01, 2009, 10:42:17 pm »
IMO the change in accuracy vs position/angle/height is grossly exaggerated.  For me and my guests its pick up at play.

The last thing you wrote on the subject was;

Besides me I'd say 10+ guests have used it on my arcade and never done any sort of recalibrating.  You need to leave the crosshair on though.  If you would hate that, you might not like them.

If you are playing with the crosshairs on, how can you possibly be in the position to state that others are "grossly exaggerating" the change in accuracy?  My accuracy goes wonky if I tilt the gun, and it takes a while for it to come back (on default settings), and sometimes it doesn't fully until I tilt it the other way.

And I disagree about needing to leave the crosshairs on.  While it may be a good idea to do so in the guest environment, it's not necessary once you get a good calibration and learn to hold the gun in a repeatable fashion.

RandyT

« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:06:23 am by RandyT »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2009, 12:10:29 am »
I guess I'll throw my two cents in. Haven't used my Aimtrak in a while, but that's because I formatted and reinstalled everything on my cabinet PC, and am still setting everything back up.

I went to the arcade a few days ago, and played Area 51. It was actually worse than my Aimtrak setup at home (the shots landed about a centimeter away from where I was aiming.) I couldn't even enter an A on the high score screen because of this, even with the gun barrel right up against the monitor glass.

On the topic of crosshairs: I don't use the ones MAME provides. Of course, stuff like Terminator 2 can't be turned off. That said, some games don't need crosshairs, because they provide a reference to where you shot. Area 51, House of the Dead, ect. all have some indication of where your shots landed. To me, that is just a good a reference as an actual crosshair. The only difference is that it only appears for a few moments. I know other games don't use it, like Duck Hunt, and possibly Point Blank (never played it yet).

Is the Aimtrak good? Well, what are the alternatives? I use an LCD in my cab, so Guncon and Act Labs are out (I never could get Act Labs stuff to work with my CRT on my desktop in the old days anyway). I tried the LCD Topgun, but getting the drivers to work properly was a nightmare. And then, calibration took a dozen attempts every time, then the cursor still didn't behave anywhere near proper (I mean it was way off). The Aimtrak doesn't need drivers (there is a config utility, but it isn't required.) I can get calibration to work within 1 or 2 tries. And the cursor is close to where I'm aiming (within half a centimeter). Nobody else but me has played any game on my cab yet, so I don't have multi-player data yet.

If you go to an arcade, not every gun game is going to be perfectly calibrated. At the one near me, some (like Police 911 2) are really accurate, but some (like Area 51) are really bad. If it's a bit off (and you can't be bothered to recalibrate it), just think of it as the real arcade experience. After all, isn't that what we're trying to do in the first place?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:14:06 am by romshark »

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2009, 09:47:09 am »
IMO the change in accuracy vs position/angle/height is grossly exaggerated.  For me and my guests its pick up at play.

The last thing you wrote on the subject was;

Besides me I'd say 10+ guests have used it on my arcade and never done any sort of recalibrating.  You need to leave the crosshair on though.  If you would hate that, you might not like them.


Yes, with the crosshairs on and you sight down the open sights, while moving around, you get a real time view of how the sights line up with the crosshairs.  If you didnt have crosshairs on, how would you know how accurate the gun is, vs you just missing the targts.  I find the sites and the crosshair dont differ by that much.  Remember you are not a typical user here, and no matter how objective you are trying to be, im sure sub conscously you dont want a competitor to have a 'win' product.   I do admit your review was quite fair though.

Keep in mind that also none of the people that picked up and played my gun games had a clue how to even use a gun.  They were mostly shooting from the hip.   Have people give it a try next time you have a crowd over and ask them if they think its fun.  


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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2009, 09:48:06 am »
Fair review. but dude.....

Quote
Point Blank (never played it yet).

Seriously, you gotta! Reinvented shooting games for me.

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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #116 on: November 02, 2009, 11:28:03 am »
I'm still working through the classics. Truth be known, when I went to that arcade last week, it was the first time I played Galaga amd Gyruss. This summer was the first time I played Bubble Bobble.  But I am trying to get to all the great games.

I missed the "golden age" of arcades by only a few years. TMNT was the first real arcade game I played, although I have fond memories of playing DK jr on our Colecovision before we got an NES.


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Re: Cut the crap - Is the Aimtrak any good?
« Reply #117 on: November 02, 2009, 12:50:16 pm »
Yes, with the crosshairs on and you sight down the open sights, while moving around, you get a real time view of how the sights line up with the crosshairs.  If you didnt have crosshairs on, how would you know how accurate the gun is, vs you just missing the targts.  I find the sites and the crosshair dont differ by that much.

Well, that's not what you originally wrote.  Regardless, if the crosshairs are on, your guests, and you, are using them.  You have to be pretty good to block them out, and I'm sure your guests aren't doing that.

Quote
Remember you are not a typical user here, and no matter how objective you are trying to be, im sure sub conscously you dont want a competitor to have a 'win' product.   I do admit your review was quite fair though.

And of course, one can also say that "sub consciously" you have a hard time accepting what I have to say because of that.  I've said over and over that it's fun and worth giving a shot.  But there are negatives that I have pointed out, and they are real, not "exaggerated".  I did the same thing in the LCDTopGun threads, but honestly didn't think there was as much promise with that one, so I didn't put the time into it.  I know what it's like trying to get Chinese manufacturers to listen to problems and fix them.  At least with this one, there's a possibility for improvement.

Quote
Keep in mind that also none of the people that picked up and played my gun games had a clue how to even use a gun.  They were mostly shooting from the hip.   Have people give it a try next time you have a crowd over and ask them if they think its fun.  

My question to you is whether you would be so willing to apply the same logic to a joystick, or your buttons.  If you built your machine for other people who don't play arcade games, I guess you could pretty safely do that.  But the reality of it is that isn't the case for a good percentage of folks here who are interested in a light gun solution.  It is fun, and no-one should be put off from getting one by my comments or anyone elses.  But, IMHO, it's just not the "holy grail" folks have been seeking....yet.

RandyT
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 12:52:54 pm by RandyT »