Best way to position 6 buttons on control panel?

[ammitz]

Hi again

I'm building/designing a bartop mame arcade, and right now I'm at the control panel. Have allready ordered 2 U360 + 2x8 buttons. And that all there is going in to my CP. I plan to have no more than 8 buttons pr joystick in total.

1 button in eack side panel so i could play pinball, and it'll be used as shift button or some kind of admin function
1 button on CP for each player, 1 and 2 player button.

Then there is the 6 buttons left for each player. Been surfing around and found 4 different possibilities for layout, they are quite similar, but with some minor differences, and I would like to hear your feedback on it.

Which one would you prefer and why?

Straight

Curved close

Curved wide

Curved straight

[Beretta]

i vote for straight a number of reasons.

1. it's how i remember playing most games, including street fighter.. so it's familiar.

2. i think it would be easier to hit the buttons.. i think the curved design might lead to more accidental or mistaken butto presses.

3. i think the straight layout would be easier to actually produce, and i also think it looks better.

[DaveMMR]

I always believed this topic to be unnecessarily over-analyzed.  Truth is, there's not a right or wrong way to do it as long as it's consistent and doesn't look "random".  It's a matter of preference, not ergonomics.  If the majority of games you're playing fall into the classics category (one, two... maybe three buttons), it matters even less.   I invite you to try all three out on cardboard and use the one you like best.  I can tell you now you're not going to find conclusive agreement on this matter.

Just for the record: Personally, I'm with Beretta.  Straight buttons replicate the SFII layout (I've been accused of being a purist when feasible) and are easier to keep consistent during construction of the panel.

[syph007]

I prefer straight as well, however the right answer and the one you might not want to here, is that you have to mock them ALL up and try them.  Its the only way to know.

[ammitz]

Like the argument that straight would be easier to produce!

[Ginsu Victim]

One thing though....

Curved, if not drilled perfect, still looks good. Straight, on the other hand, has to be drilled EXACT or else the mistakes will be obvious.

[Bender]

I like the curved, but you really have to try them out for yourself like DaveMMR said

[vrf]

For a bartop, where the hands are close together, I think an angled curving thing is somewhat more ergonomic. As the hands get further apart (full cabs),  the straight layout works better.

[ammitz]

I think that the straight line-up will give each player more space. Because with a curved line up, I think that player 1's right arm would be twisted more towards player 2. Whereas with a straight lineup, player 1 right arm and elbow would go more left.

Is that right, or is it hypothetical thinking?

Personally i like option number 4 a little more than the straight, but it's a close choice.

[Franco B]

I prefer the curved Jap layouts but it is just personal preference. As the guys said its best to try a few out to see whats best for you.

I think that the straight line-up will give each player more space. Because with a curved line up, I think that player 1's right arm would be twisted more towards player 2. Whereas with a straight lineup, player 1 right arm and elbow would go more left.

Is that right, or is it hypothetical thinking?

Yep thats right. Some candy cab layouts have the player two buttons slightly rotated slighty counterwise (about five degrees) to combat this.

[GaryMcT]

I would mock it up and try it.  I ended up with curved just because it feels more ergonomic to me.

[severdhed]

the first 3 or 4 revisions to my control panel, i had my buttons in straight rows, on my last one, i went with a curved layout, and i like it alot better.  personally i dont think i got the curve quite right yet, so i'll probably end up redoing it yet again, but i definitely like the curve better...it just feels more natural.

[Jack Burton]

A six button layout is a fighting game layout, and 99% of fighting gamers use a curved close layout these days.  We all started on the straight six, but eventually moved over to Japanese controls and a curved layout.

Check out the custom stick threads at forums.shoryuken.com.  You'll see what I'm talking about. 

If you are going to use Japanese controls then the close curved layout will be perfect.  It looks too close until you actually play with it and realize you won't accept anything else.

[GaryMcT]

I did a few layout tests when designing my control panel and ended up thinking that I would always want my buttons as close together as possible.

[Ond]

Regarding the Jap layouts, this  -> Button Layout templates was mentioned to me in my project thread, it seems relevant here.  Templates are ready to use and can be imported into your CP design.

[Ginsu Victim]

Regarding the Jap layouts, this  -> Button Layout templates was mentioned to me in my project thread, it seems relevant here.  Templates are ready to use and can be imported into your CP design.

I have used that and modified some of them. Great resource.

[Ryglore]

My layout is a curved layout with the buttons spaced 1 1/2" apart on centers. I played around with the straight layout but found it uncomfortable. Plus I'm already used to the curved layout, since my joystick for my xbox 360 is the same layout. I played around with different spacing, but found that the 1 1/2" spacing seemed to work perfectly.

[maddags]

I too had straight button layout, but my second panel that I built I went to a curved layout as well( also with 1 1/2" spacing like Ryglore).  I seem to prefer this more, but that's just my personal taste.

[Franco B]

Just a word of warning. If you are using something like the Astro City layout you have to be very precise with you hole positions if you are using the nut style of switch as once mounted some of the nuts have less than 0.5mm clearance:



If you are not sure how accurately you can drill them I would suggest drilling the holes slightly over size so that you have some clearance to play with when mounting them.

Alternatively you could but a drilling/routing remplate from me 

[ammitz]

Regarding the Jap layouts, this  -> Button Layout templates was mentioned to me in my project thread, it seems relevant here.  Templates are ready to use and can be imported into your CP design.

Great page with lots of great templates. I'll be using some of these templates to night when i'll drill some CP layouts.

It's hard to chose. I find that i change my mind about this subject 2 or 3 times pr day. In the morning I think it should be straight, but suddenly in the afternoon I think that curved japanese style is best....

This new hobby i very "brain consuming"  sometimes i can hardly think of anything else.

[surface tension]

That's pretty cozy! It looks like clockwork 

[Beretta]

i see, that link is obviously bias towards slanted layouts.

but it does bring up an important point..

how do you hit your buttons?

1. with index & middle fingers

2. each fingers hovers on it's own button?


if you have a finger on each button i can see how the slanted may have an advantage.

then again i like using my index & middle finger so having a finger on each button would feel to much like a keyboard for my taste.. also a standard keyboard has straight key's as well.. they do make split keyboards personally i dont like those.

so i guess you need to try them all out.. and also ask your self how are you gonna be pressing the key's?

that page says 3x2 layouts are inefficient and Americans dont compete very well in fighters.. hmm i dont agree with that statement.

for one a game is only going to accept so many commands at a givin time, IE: yes it's more work to shift from button to button but it does have some advantage.

for example you have the most coordination and strength in your hand with your thumb,index, and middle finger.. your ring and pinky fingers are much less coordinated.

for rapid fire moves like ehonda's thousand hand attack on street fighter usually you'll wanna use strong punch.. that being covered by your ring finger.. this means most of the work is going to be from the joints in the finger, where as a index/middle finger approach the fingers more or less would stay stiff and the wrist would be doing most of the work.. which imo is faster and more comfortable.

i suppose in a slanted design you could convert to a index/middle finger tap for those particular moves although i think it illustrates a weakness that the very philosophy must be abandoned in favor of more "inefficient" methods in some situations.

then there is the matter of fine motor control, as adrenaline rises in the body you lose fine motor control.. it is my belief that you will have more control in a heated game with the index/middle finger method over a "keyboard" style method.. individual fingers would be fine motor control, gross motor control is effected and that would involve large limb movements like arms, wrist, hands.

that wont always be a issue but in a heated game it could show it's face.

it looks like you really do need to try a few layouts to see which one you like best, just get some scrap would and make a CP.. it does'nt have to be pretty you just need to try it out.

my money is still on the straight row layout though personally.

[ammitz]

I'we decided so far. I'll be drilling these 3 templates out tonight.
Capcom USA Street Fighter layout

Standard Japanese arcade layout

Standard non-slanted Japanese arcade layout

[kowal]

it is not SF layout, it is custom stoated from my side

if you use all fingers to play best use jap leyout Astro City 1P left side

if you use 4 fingers 2P Astro City right side

if you use only 3 fingers best is stright

[ammitz]

Just finished drilling the 3 templates out, now I'm just waiting for my package from ultimarc.com with my buttoms and 2 u360's..

[DaveMMR]

I always believed this topic to be unnecessarily over-analyzed. 

for example you have the most coordination and strength in your hand with your thumb,index, and middle finger.. your ring and pinky fingers are much less coordinated.

for rapid fire moves like ehonda's thousand hand attack on street fighter usually you'll wanna use strong punch.. that being covered by your ring finger.. this means most of the work is going to be from the joints in the finger, where as a index/middle finger approach the fingers more or less would stay stiff and the wrist would be doing most of the work.. which imo is faster and more comfortable.

i suppose in a slanted design you could convert to a index/middle finger tap for those particular moves although i think it illustrates a weakness that the very philosophy must be abandoned in favor of more "inefficient" methods in some situations.

then there is the matter of fine motor control, as adrenaline rises in the body you lose fine motor control.. it is my belief that you will have more control in a heated game with the index/middle finger method over a "keyboard" style method.. individual fingers would be fine motor control, gross motor control is effected and that would involve large limb movements like arms, wrist, hands.

that wont always be a issue but in a heated game it could show it's face.

it looks like you really do need to try a few layouts to see which one you like best, just get some scrap would and make a CP.. it does'nt have to be pretty you just need to try it out.

   Sorry Beretta...

[ammitz]

Just finished drilling the 3 templates out, now I'm just waiting for my package from ultimarc.com with my buttoms and 2 u360's..

Seems I'll have to patient, aparently DHL shipped it to the wrong destination    

This is what they wrote to me (and i live in Denmark btw)

EVENT CATEGORY
09 Sep 09 8:14 AM - Shipment arrived at incorrect facility. Sent to correct destination - Leipzig,Germany

[massive88]

When playing fighters ill use all 5 fingers at one point or another, especially in SF4 which has the LP+LK (Pointer and Thumb) throws, and kara-throw with Gouken by adding in HK (Pinky).

Anyway Ive never heard of anyone making a curved layout and then go back to straight, but I guess its all personal preference.

To cast my vote, its curved all the way (though my CP is straight, my custom Xbox 360 controllers are all curved).

Edit: Also I wholeheartedly agree with the above that a curved layout, if not precise, still looks great unless you stare at it looking for it to be wrong.  A straight layout drilled wrong will look cock-eyed to even the casual observer.

[Xiaou2]

 Look at your Keyboard.  Even the most ergonomical designs are very much
straight lines (barely any curve).  Compare the curve to whats seen on some of these CPs, and its just way too much.

 I once had the bright idea to position the buttons in a curve.  Thought it would
be more comfortable.  However, after mounting them and actually playing some
fighters... I found it was quite the opposite.

 I kept instinctively hitting the outside edge of the outer buttons (rather than
hitting them all in the center of the buttons).  Which was uncomfortable, and led
to it being poorly hit or a slip.

 What I didnt realize, was that when you play a game, your fingers
hover over the buttons at a near vertical 90 degree angle.  This gives you
mechanical advantage of shorter distance, use of gravity, etc.

 With a curve layout, your center fingers end up being extended outwards at more
of a slanted 45 degree angle,  AND, because they are extended further, its hard to
extend them even more without a lot more fatigue.  You fight more against gravity,
and lose mechanical advantages, as well as loss of speed.  PLUS, because
the fingers have to use two different angles to hit the buttons, (2@90 , 1@45)
it makes it even more straining.  Close your eyes, and you can know where
a button is when there is a straight line.  But a curve?  Not so easy to get right,
if your finger loses contact for even a moment.

 Finally, button spacing should be as close as possible.  If buttons are spaced even
2 mm too far... there will be stresses on the fingers... which will cause strain
and fatigue.   Even if YOU have a monster sized hand... someone with smaller
hands who comes over to play, will not be able to use your CP happily.

[Jack Burton]

This thread is overthinking the issue.

Six buttons = Street Fighter



99% of competitive fighting gamers use this layout or one extremely similar to it.  It's not by accident.

[Beretta]

it's over thinking it? so what you're suggesting is the "no thought" solution i guess.


i dont know if your post is a typo or not.. gamers are people games are objects..

if you're speaking of gamers.. uh i would'nt know i guess i'd have to take a poll on that.
although most comparative gaming happens on computers and consoles rather then arcades these days.

games on the other hand perhaps that is the most common layout "TODAY" on the other hand it's been years since i've been in a real arcade i think the newest arcade fighter i seen was SFA 3, it had a straight layout..

i could show you more fighters that had straight layouts then the curved.. although i guess the curved was popular in japan.. in the states however most games used a straight layout regardless if they was fighters or not.

im not gonna try to change your mind.. infact i dont care what anyone uses.
i think both have their pro's and cons.. and ultimately it's gonna boil down to a personal preference more then anything.

however which ever someone chooses to go with do it for your own reasons not because it's popular in japan or you seen it on X,Y & Z and assume it must be the best.

reminds me of those plastic sitdown so called "candy cabs" godly ugly imo and over all i hate the designs of them.. imo they look like they're shorted simply to save material..

but since they're popular in japan they must be the best design right? ya right!

think for your self is the moral im trying to bestow here.

[Jack Burton]

snip

forums.shoryuken.com

Best explanation I can give you. 

[Octo]

For me, I just colored the tips of my fingers with a Sharpie and tapped them on paper where they felt comfortable. The curve on my CP is somewhere between straight and the curves on JP cabs. Remember that arcade cabs are made to accommodate a majority of players, whereas your cab is made for you. 

[Ginsu Victim]

For me, I just colored the tips of my fingers with a Sharpie and...

...looked like an idiot for about a week.

[Octo]

Ha, jokes on you, it was a month. But I'm used to people thinking I'm terarded....

[Ginsu Victim]

Don't wash up much?

Good job, pee-hands.

[Beretta]

Don't wash up much?

Good job, pee-hands.

dont forget about #2... ewwww

[Ginsu Victim]

Don't wash up much?

Good job, pee-hands.

dont forget about #2... ewwww

[Octo]

Yep, yep. Foreigner even wrote a song about me... *hums Dirty White Boy*

Anywho, if you wanna be all smart and scientific about it, you could just spread your fingers out to a comfortable spot, and mark with a pencil the center-points. The point is, just make it comfortable for you, not everyone else. If playing with odd finger positions gives you hand cramps, you're not going to want to play on your expensive toy very often.

[Xiaou2]

 Actually, I tried the tapping on carboard trick to find what I "THOUGHT" was
comfy.... 

 The problem is... cardboard tapping isnt the same as fully depressing an
actual button.  There is no spring resistance, travel, or slide-friction when you tap
on a flat piece of cardboard.

 You simply cant get an accurate realistic playability feel, unless you actually mount real buttons and try a frantic paced game.