Happ to stop using Cherry switches

[Ginsu Victim]

This may not be news to some, but it's news to me. I didn't see anyone talking about this here, but I could've missed it.

I just read this on TornadoTerrys.com:

As of 6-22-09

Happ has made a decision to stop using Cherry switches on all of their product. We still have inventory that includes Cherry switches, we will send Cherry brand switches until our supply of those is exausted, we will then be shipping with the new  "E switch". Works exactly like the Cherry switches. You will not notice any difference except the name. Quite frankly, if we didnt tell you, you wouldnt know the difference if you didnt look. This will apply to all of Happs product line that involves a switch of this type.  Some parts like the black competition sticks already have the new switches.

Thanks, Terry!

So, is anyone familiar with this switch and if so, does it have the same feel as a Cherry?

[Kevin Mullins]

I don't know those in particular, but I'm guessing there won't be much difference.
http://www.e-switch.com/pdf/LS.pdf
Happs probably found they could get them cheaper and still charge the same for "their" stuff. (typical)

[Ginsu Victim]

I just hope these will be as good as Cherries. I haven't found a microswitch I like near as much.

[Level42]

I just hope these will be as good as Cherries. I haven't found a microswitch I like near as much.

I'm a leaf man, but when micro-switches are the only option, it's Cherry and nothing else (except for things like coin-mechs). Just a trick to save money, nothing else.

[RandyT]

I'm a leaf man, but when micro-switches are the only option, it's Cherry and nothing else (except for things like coin-mechs). Just a trick to save money, nothing else.

I have had a notice posted on the GGG site about this for a few days now (under the pushbutton items).  It's not a "trick" to save money, it's about saving you money.  Inflation is on the rise in the US and prices are starting to climb.  So to continue offering the pushbuttons at the price everyone has been accustomed to, HAPP found another quality switch manufacturer who can provide the same operating specifications as the Cherry switches they were using.

The only difference I have noticed is the sound.  The click of the switch is about the same volume, but a little lower in pitch.  Otherwise, actuation forces, actuation points and even appearance are pretty much identical.

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

Thanks for the info Randy! You addressed my main concerns. I'm sure I'll get to try them out in the near future.

[Kevin Mullins]

It's not a "trick" to save money, it's about saving you money. 

We shall see......

Do you happen to have any actual price changes in their products that would normally have had the Cherry brand switches ?

[Gatsu]

do they wire up the same? It was kinda hard for me to tell from the photos in that PDF.

[kowal]

the same...
cherry 10.000.000
e 1.000.000

[divemaster127]

Happ told me cherry was sold so they went with another vendor.  I have over 10,000 cherry switches so it will be a long time before I start evening using the eswitches.
dm

[AndyWarne]

Our contact at Suzo-Happ mentioned that they were supplying the E-Switches as the standard offering because they are cheaper than the Cherry switches.
But we will be continuing to supply Cherry switches with our pushbuttons unless the Cherry switches become completely unavailable which we dont expect to happen.
Andy

[RandyT]

Our contact at Suzo-Happ mentioned that they were supplying the E-Switches as the standard offering because they are cheaper than the Cherry switches.

This is because, as I stated, HAPP's price on these has increased.  These increases get passed on to customers, unless a different vendor can be found to make an equivalent part for less.  The increase I heard was in the area of of 20-25%, which is very significant when you order 100's of thousands of units per year, which I am sure HAPP does.

the same...
cherry 10.000.000
e 1.000.000

This is totally inaccurate.  The numbers you show for the Cherry switches have never been quoted in any official documentation from the manufacturer.  Regardless, the longevity of these devices tend to be rated based primarily upon contact life, and because they are rated at up to 15amps / 125v, or 1875watts, that will very likely be much shorter than the mechanical life of the switch.  This is why one sees these over-inflated numbers in applications where power isn't concerned.  In control applications, we never use more more than a few milliamps at 5v, or somewhere around .025 watts, so the contact life is a moot point.

We sell many thousands of switches a month, so we we don't have a stockpile of the old switches laying around.  But I encourage folks to try the E-Switches.  At the end of the day, a switch is just a set of contacts and a piece of spring loaded metal with specific resistance values and make/break points.  So long as these values are similar, then there is little difference in the end.  Folks looking for "performance" switches, probably won't find themselves satisfied with either variety, so the impact of this change is not even significant with that group.

We have already inquired about offering the original Cherry for the die-hard fans, but we don't yet have pricing for these.  Regardless, we should be able to do it for less than the $.75 per button over our current pricing charged by some other vendors. 

RandyT

[kowal]

for your information 1mln is very, very small for standart V microswitches
1.000.000 is standart only for soft buttons with micro on ball (like japan and corean)
they have low endurance but they are gentle, but this is different type of switch

on e-sitch you get still clumsy switches (buttons over 50g) and low endurance
it is standart horizontal V construction, and good firms have 3-50.000.000

[Ken Layton]

Cherry made alot of coin switches. Will this new company also make coin switches?

[RandyT]

for your information 1mln is very, very small for standart V microswitches
1.000.000 is standart only for soft buttons with micro on ball (like japan and corean)
they have low endurance but they are gentle, but this is different type of switch

on e-sitch you get still clumsy switches (buttons over 50g) and low endurance
it is standart horizontal V construction, and good firms have 3-50.000.000

Once again, Kowal, you seem to be speaking from inexperience.  If you look for a manufacturers rating at all on the HAPP branded Cherry switches, you will find none.  And, as I stated, these numbers you use are contact ratings, which are meaningless in this application.  The actuation force is very soft, and measures about the same as the Cherry switches, so I don't know what you mean by the "over 50g" comment.  These specifications are dictated by the purchaser.  Just because a switch is branded E-Switch, or Cherry, doesn't indicate the performance specifications of the switch.  They are built differently internally to accomodate whatever performance the purchaser requires.  Obviously, HAPP has indicated a need for similar specifications with these switches as those they were using previously.

Have you even seen one of the new ones yet to try them?

[shatteredzman]

I got my order yesterday from RandyT and I got cherry switches, however I ordered some happ joysticks from another vendor that had e-switches. To be honest with you I cant really tell the difference. They both have the same color scheme and they play the same but the click sound is different although I did not find one more appealing than the other. With all the buttons/joysticks installed on the control panel I dont notice any difference between the two.

[Kevin Mullins]

If you look for a manufacturers rating at all on the HAPP branded Cherry switches, you will find none.  

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

[kowal]

Seimitsu finished production PS14 GXN because "switch production is over". Sanwa still uses this switches on RG, they have not  problem with purchase switch (2years).
only reason is weak sale, or weak profit

now HAPP look only on price not on quality (China Competion (for You work identical like original), Chinese factories)
crisis xD

"Have you even seen one of the new ones yet to try them?"

no, I will not buy them

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

I have D41,D42, D44.
D41 and D43/D44 use CoinControl, and Wico
D42 use iL and SUZO, Ultimarc
D41/D42/D43 (all is similar) - have different movement, fell - after engagement they place resistance, it is matter of taste. I prefer KWJ in buttons, but I love D42 in Eurojoystick
D44 is very similar fell how KWJ but the point of activation is lower, for buttons KWJ is still more better, on stick it depends - on Wico Conical Joystick they do not work correctly, less diagonal than on KWJ, on other stick work OK and all is fine (iL-Eurojoystick, SUZO)

[RandyT]

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

No.  These are a very different model internally.  Also, note the words "Electrical Life at Rated Load".  This is what I was referring to with "contact life".  There are no official ratings for simple mechanical life.

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

 While working in the arcade... bad micros were replaced regularly.  Most failures
were not contact related.   The internal spring loses its snappy quality eventually.
At times, the actuator has a some wear too...  but mostly, its the spring that fails.

 Its very conceivable that mechanical failure is tested and rated.  Not to say that
everyone does this... but its actually something that is a requirement on something
like say.... the military would in fact ask for before ordering Any of such switches.

[kowal]

Best durability micro is old FREEPORT.ILL (now honeywell but new is not good as old). Black casing and green or grey plunger, terminals never have mildew or patina. looks like new after 15 years and work.

it is truee is blamee mini spring on micro, but meny micro unused spring: KWJ and FREEPORT.IL. They act longer, and has same push and sound

[RandyT]

While working in the arcade... bad micros were replaced regularly.  Most failures
were not contact related.   The internal spring loses its snappy quality eventually.
At times, the actuator has a some wear too...  but mostly, its the spring that fails.

 Its very conceivable that mechanical failure is tested and rated.  Not to say that
everyone does this... but its actually something that is a requirement on something
like say.... the military would in fact ask for before ordering Any of such switches.

In that event, the switch would have specific MILSPEC ratings and cost 20 to 30x more.  It would still be rated based on the power handling capabilities, as the mechanical life is expected to go well beyond the life of the contacts.  In cases where extra longevity is required, like in the military example you gave above, mechanical aspects would be beefed up to meet them.  One example would be the use of a coil spring, rather than the thin, flat metal "springs" used in the Cherry switches previously offered by HAPP (and also used in the newer E-Switch model)

In an arcade environment, you would never see a contact failure that was associated with the ratings given by the manufacturers, unless they were used in a door interlock system for the cabinet power, or something similar.  Of course any switch will fail over time, and it stands to reason that when a switch does not fail due to contact burning or pitting (or heat from arcing, etc) the failure will be associated with metal fatigue.  And with no way of knowing how many times those switches were actually depressed before failing, this really doesn't say anything significant.

In any event, here's something you should appreciate, Steve;  The E-switch is a blessing in disguise.  The design is very similar internally to the Cherry switch, but just different enough to allow it to be modified in a way that the Cherry can't.  Here's a hint....real leaf-switch-style performance  .  More on this soon....

RandyT

[SavannahLion]

In any event, here's something you should appreciate, Steve;  The E-switch is a blessing in disguise.  The design is very similar internally to the Cherry switch, but just different enough to allow it to be modified in a way that the Cherry can't.  Here's a hint....real leaf-switch-style performance  .  More on this soon....

I was going to post this exact request. I want to see what's going on inside these new E-Switches and how they differ (if any) from the Cherries.

[Xiaou2]

Randy,   Personally, I really do not care too much about the micro differences.  I was
merely making an point about mechanical failure.   As long as the micro is not too
hard to depress, nor too easy (usually too easy = fails much quicker),  then its decent
enough for the mame cab use,  Imop.

 I think Ive recall having a micro that had dual coil springs.  I think it was actually a really
nice switch actually.


 As for micro to leaf modification...  I personally do not think the performance and
feel will be equivalent... but who knows.   The biggest drawback is actually the Happ button assembly itself.   

 The Wico buttons have a very narrow center shaft, which not only makes the
buttons much more quiet  (happs have that horrible hollow sound),  but also makes
for less slop and smoother travel.   I was quite surprised at how much better they
feel and react that a standard happs button.   (The buttons max depth is a little too
much however, which is understandable considering the nature of typical leafs)

 

[Havok]

Here's a hint....real leaf-switch-style performance  .  More on this soon....

RandyT

There you go again - you're such a tease...

 

[opt2not]

Neh, doesn't matter to me. If it feels the same, and saves me money, then rock on.

Switches get replaced so frequently in our cabinets (our cabs get a LOT of use) that I could care less what brand they are. As long as the feel right and connect the same way, I'm happy.

[Ginsu Victim]

Neh, doesn't matter to me. If it feels the same, and saves me money, then rock on.

Switches get replaced so frequently in our cabinets (our cabs get a LOT of use) that I could care less what brand they are. As long as the feel right and connect the same way, I'm happy.

Compare a Sanwa and a Cherry and you'll care.

[MonMotha]

Compare a Sanwa and a Cherry and you'll care.

Actually, the only microswitches I've ever had to deal with that I would consider "utter garbage" were some Sanwa branded ones that came on a set of Ultimarc Ultralux buttons (good buttons otherwise, though).  I've become something of an Omron whore when it comes to microswitches, but that's just because they're pretty good and they are the OEM equipment on almost all of the cabinets I own.

As for Happ changing vendors, I'd pay it no mind.  They seemed to do almost no QA on their Cherry sourced switches, anyway.  I'm not even sure they always ordered the same part.  There certainly seems to be some pretty major differences between Happ supplied switches from ~2002 and the ones they've had recently, even on old stuff with very little use.

The E-Switch switches I've seen used (in VERY switch sensitive gaming applications, mind you) seem to fare just fine.  They don't feel 100% like the OEM part, but that was probably just because somebody failed to match specs, not due to any fault of the switch.

[Ginsu Victim]

Actually, the only microswitches I've ever had to deal with that I would consider "utter garbage" were some Sanwa branded ones that came on a set of Ultimarc Ultralux buttons (good buttons otherwise, though).

That's how I experienced them, as well.

[AndyWarne]

Microswitches used in gaming applications can and do experience contact problems and sometimes this can happen quite early in the lifetime of the switch.
The problem is lack of contact "wetting" which is an issue when contacts are used with very low currents. Tarnishing of the contacts will occur if the contacts have a wetting current which is above the current being switched.

Cherry switches are not immune to this. I have seen Cherry switches in the past which suffered really badly from this problem almost from new. The ones currently supplied by Happ are OK. Cherry switches sourced in various parts of the world have a different design, even a different casing colour even though the part number may be the same, and the quality has varied in the past.

We dont yet know if the E-Switches will suffer from any problems or not. They may well be fine. The point is though that the fact these are switching a low current does not mean the lifetime of the switch will be longer than any manufacturers stated life. It might well be much shorter.

I personally like Sanwa switches the best of all. The reason for this might be somewhat too objective though, I admit. Its because the output looks best on an oscilloscope, very little contact bounce and a nice clean make/break. A better signal then any Cherry switch. I accept that they are a heavier action than the Cherry switches though, and my criteria might not be the best way to subjectively judge a switch.

[MonMotha]

I personally like Sanwa switches the best of all. The reason for this might be somewhat too objective though, I admit. Its because the output looks best on an oscilloscope, very little contact bounce and a nice clean make/break. A better signal then any Cherry switch. I accept that they are a heavier action than the Cherry switches though, and my criteria might not be the best way to subjectively judge a switch.

The high actuation force (much too high for a gaming button application, in my opinion - I'm used to 75-150g, while those seemed like at least 250g) was the least of the problems my friend saw with his.  Within a week or two, two out of the 10 switches had failed.  They'd "stick" - that is, they'd hold for a period of time after you released them, often making and breaking contact rapidly during that "sticking" time.  It's not hard to debounce a switch (though one could argue all day as to preferred methods of doing it), but it's basically impossible to deal with behavior like that.

[Ummon]

I personally like Sanwa switches the best of all. The reason for this might be somewhat too objective though, I admit. Its because the output looks best on an oscilloscope, very little contact bounce and a nice clean make/break. A better signal then any Cherry switch.

Nice.

[RandyT]

Microswitches used in gaming applications can and do experience contact problems and sometimes this can happen quite early in the lifetime of the switch.
The problem is lack of contact "wetting" which is an issue when contacts are used with very low currents. Tarnishing of the contacts will occur if the contacts have a wetting current which is above the current being switched.
...
We dont yet know if the E-Switches will suffer from any problems or not. They may well be fine. The point is though that the fact these are switching a low current does not mean the lifetime of the switch will be longer than any manufacturers stated life. It might well be much shorter.

This is just a long way of saying "the contacts might tarnish".  Of course, the only contacts which will never tarnish are those made from gold, which most, including the Cherrys, are not. 

This "concern" is also failing to take into consideration two things;

1) Tarnishing of contacts is of most concern where humidity is very high and the contacts are exposed to surrounding air.  Due to the enclosed nature of the typical microswitch, there would be very little chance of this being a problem, unless you happen to live in a jungle.

2) One of the benefits of "snap" switches over conventional leaf type switches is the mechanical action that provides a consistent interaction between the contacts.  This interaction is literally the slamming together of two pieces of metal under spring tension.  As tarnish, especially as it first forms, is very, very thin, this slamming action serves to break through it to reestablish the contact surface every time it is actuated. 

It should probably also be mentioned that the harder and more solidly the contacts slam together, the less "bounce" will be detected on a scope.  But this usually equates to a harder actuation, which is detrimental to the feel of the switch, and possibly performance when being used in this application (gaming.)

There seems to be little point in bringing up theory of switch contact design and dynamics that don't apply significantly to the types of switches currently being discussed.

RandyT

[kowal]

Omron=trash? very interesting:PPPP
now Omron make best durability micro
V series have 50.000.000
I think it is best micro on world fell is very good, same clik, good plunger reflection, nice realization.  comparable quality have only MicroYamatace
but Omron V have 200g force to engage it is switch only for joystick
for buttons max is 100g, over>100 sux:P
on buttons I use only Chery (KWJ or D42) other good thing is SAIA X3 (something 90g) or Freeport witch grey-white plunger (something 85g), but I still will Cherry.

[RandyT]

Omron=trash? very interesting:PPPP
now Omron make best durability micro
V series have 50.000.000
I think it is best micro on world fell is very good, same clik, good plunger reflection, nice realization.  comparable quality have only MicroYamatace
but Omron V have 200g force to engage it is switch only for joystick
for buttons max is 100g, over>100 sux:P
on buttons I use only Chery (KWJ or D42) other good thing is SAIA X3 (something 90g) or Freeport witch grey-white plunger (something 85g), but I still will Cherry.

MonMotha didn't say Omron were "trash."  Your translator app doesn't understand slang.

[mvsfan]

if the e switch turns out to be crap, the solution is simple enough. you can always order cherry switches from digikey. 

[mvsfan]

if the e switch turns out to be crap, the solution is simple enough. you can always order cherry switches from digikey. 

personally i have a feeling that Cherry =ISO9000 certified
and Eswitch = made in chinese sweatshop.

[RandyT]

personally i have a feeling that Cherry =ISO9000 certified
and Eswitch = made in chinese sweatshop.

HAPP Cherrys were made in a Mexican "sweatshop" (your word, not mine.)  I fail to see a difference.

[MonMotha]

Omron=trash? very interesting:PPPP
now Omron make best durability micro
V series have 50.000.000
I think it is best micro on world fell is very good, same clik, good plunger reflection, nice realization.  comparable quality have only MicroYamatace
but Omron V have 200g force to engage it is switch only for joystick
for buttons max is 100g, over>100 sux:P
on buttons I use only Chery (KWJ or D42) other good thing is SAIA X3 (something 90g) or Freeport witch grey-white plunger (something 85g), but I still will Cherry.

Definitely a failure in translation.  "A <something> whore" in US slang commonly means that one expresses their preference for <something> freely, perhaps too freely.  I very much like the Omron V-10G-1C24-K.  I've bought like 25 of them just for myself and have bought perhaps 100 for others.  It's my preferred microswitch for gaming button applications.

As for the signal coming out of the Sanwas, if it's "clean", that's certainly awesome.  However, 20% failure rate after only 2 weeks of home usage is pretty abysmal.  I'll take a little bounce (which can easily be cleaned up) over a 20% failure rate any day.

As for ISO9000, I personally think it's something of a sham.  It doesn't mean that product quality is good; it just means that the manufacturer knows who to blame when there's a problem

[evitagen]

I'm on board with happs over Sanwa as well.

Also, thanks for the information RandyT.  I trust you on this issue as you've always really seemed to know what's up.  Will be ordering from you again soon!

These new switches don't bother me at all.  Oh and do you think you'll supply some convex happs buttons in the future?  I made a stick for someone that wanted these and was going to order from you and noticed you didn't have any.  I got them elsewhere but I did find that I really liked them.