Happ to stop using Cherry switches

[Ginsu Victim]

This may not be news to some, but it's news to me. I didn't see anyone talking about this here, but I could've missed it.

I just read this on TornadoTerrys.com:

As of 6-22-09

Happ has made a decision to stop using Cherry switches on all of their product. We still have inventory that includes Cherry switches, we will send Cherry brand switches until our supply of those is exausted, we will then be shipping with the new  "E switch". Works exactly like the Cherry switches. You will not notice any difference except the name. Quite frankly, if we didnt tell you, you wouldnt know the difference if you didnt look. This will apply to all of Happs product line that involves a switch of this type.  Some parts like the black competition sticks already have the new switches.

Thanks, Terry!

So, is anyone familiar with this switch and if so, does it have the same feel as a Cherry?

[Kevin Mullins]

I don't know those in particular, but I'm guessing there won't be much difference.
http://www.e-switch.com/pdf/LS.pdf
Happs probably found they could get them cheaper and still charge the same for "their" stuff. (typical)

[Ginsu Victim]

I just hope these will be as good as Cherries. I haven't found a microswitch I like near as much.

[Level42]

I just hope these will be as good as Cherries. I haven't found a microswitch I like near as much.

I'm a leaf man, but when micro-switches are the only option, it's Cherry and nothing else (except for things like coin-mechs). Just a trick to save money, nothing else.

[RandyT]

I'm a leaf man, but when micro-switches are the only option, it's Cherry and nothing else (except for things like coin-mechs). Just a trick to save money, nothing else.

I have had a notice posted on the GGG site about this for a few days now (under the pushbutton items).  It's not a "trick" to save money, it's about saving you money.  Inflation is on the rise in the US and prices are starting to climb.  So to continue offering the pushbuttons at the price everyone has been accustomed to, HAPP found another quality switch manufacturer who can provide the same operating specifications as the Cherry switches they were using.

The only difference I have noticed is the sound.  The click of the switch is about the same volume, but a little lower in pitch.  Otherwise, actuation forces, actuation points and even appearance are pretty much identical.

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

Thanks for the info Randy! You addressed my main concerns. I'm sure I'll get to try them out in the near future.

[Kevin Mullins]

It's not a "trick" to save money, it's about saving you money. 

We shall see......

Do you happen to have any actual price changes in their products that would normally have had the Cherry brand switches ?

[Gatsu]

do they wire up the same? It was kinda hard for me to tell from the photos in that PDF.

[kowal]

the same...
cherry 10.000.000
e 1.000.000

[divemaster127]

Happ told me cherry was sold so they went with another vendor.  I have over 10,000 cherry switches so it will be a long time before I start evening using the eswitches.
dm

[AndyWarne]

Our contact at Suzo-Happ mentioned that they were supplying the E-Switches as the standard offering because they are cheaper than the Cherry switches.
But we will be continuing to supply Cherry switches with our pushbuttons unless the Cherry switches become completely unavailable which we dont expect to happen.
Andy

[RandyT]

Our contact at Suzo-Happ mentioned that they were supplying the E-Switches as the standard offering because they are cheaper than the Cherry switches.

This is because, as I stated, HAPP's price on these has increased.  These increases get passed on to customers, unless a different vendor can be found to make an equivalent part for less.  The increase I heard was in the area of of 20-25%, which is very significant when you order 100's of thousands of units per year, which I am sure HAPP does.

the same...
cherry 10.000.000
e 1.000.000

This is totally inaccurate.  The numbers you show for the Cherry switches have never been quoted in any official documentation from the manufacturer.  Regardless, the longevity of these devices tend to be rated based primarily upon contact life, and because they are rated at up to 15amps / 125v, or 1875watts, that will very likely be much shorter than the mechanical life of the switch.  This is why one sees these over-inflated numbers in applications where power isn't concerned.  In control applications, we never use more more than a few milliamps at 5v, or somewhere around .025 watts, so the contact life is a moot point.

We sell many thousands of switches a month, so we we don't have a stockpile of the old switches laying around.  But I encourage folks to try the E-Switches.  At the end of the day, a switch is just a set of contacts and a piece of spring loaded metal with specific resistance values and make/break points.  So long as these values are similar, then there is little difference in the end.  Folks looking for "performance" switches, probably won't find themselves satisfied with either variety, so the impact of this change is not even significant with that group.

We have already inquired about offering the original Cherry for the die-hard fans, but we don't yet have pricing for these.  Regardless, we should be able to do it for less than the $.75 per button over our current pricing charged by some other vendors. 

RandyT

[kowal]

for your information 1mln is very, very small for standart V microswitches
1.000.000 is standart only for soft buttons with micro on ball (like japan and corean)
they have low endurance but they are gentle, but this is different type of switch

on e-sitch you get still clumsy switches (buttons over 50g) and low endurance
it is standart horizontal V construction, and good firms have 3-50.000.000

[Ken Layton]

Cherry made alot of coin switches. Will this new company also make coin switches?

[RandyT]

for your information 1mln is very, very small for standart V microswitches
1.000.000 is standart only for soft buttons with micro on ball (like japan and corean)
they have low endurance but they are gentle, but this is different type of switch

on e-sitch you get still clumsy switches (buttons over 50g) and low endurance
it is standart horizontal V construction, and good firms have 3-50.000.000

Once again, Kowal, you seem to be speaking from inexperience.  If you look for a manufacturers rating at all on the HAPP branded Cherry switches, you will find none.  And, as I stated, these numbers you use are contact ratings, which are meaningless in this application.  The actuation force is very soft, and measures about the same as the Cherry switches, so I don't know what you mean by the "over 50g" comment.  These specifications are dictated by the purchaser.  Just because a switch is branded E-Switch, or Cherry, doesn't indicate the performance specifications of the switch.  They are built differently internally to accomodate whatever performance the purchaser requires.  Obviously, HAPP has indicated a need for similar specifications with these switches as those they were using previously.

Have you even seen one of the new ones yet to try them?

[shatteredzman]

I got my order yesterday from RandyT and I got cherry switches, however I ordered some happ joysticks from another vendor that had e-switches. To be honest with you I cant really tell the difference. They both have the same color scheme and they play the same but the click sound is different although I did not find one more appealing than the other. With all the buttons/joysticks installed on the control panel I dont notice any difference between the two.

[Kevin Mullins]

If you look for a manufacturers rating at all on the HAPP branded Cherry switches, you will find none.  

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

[kowal]

Seimitsu finished production PS14 GXN because "switch production is over". Sanwa still uses this switches on RG, they have not  problem with purchase switch (2years).
only reason is weak sale, or weak profit

now HAPP look only on price not on quality (China Competion (for You work identical like original), Chinese factories)
crisis xD

"Have you even seen one of the new ones yet to try them?"

no, I will not buy them

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

I have D41,D42, D44.
D41 and D43/D44 use CoinControl, and Wico
D42 use iL and SUZO, Ultimarc
D41/D42/D43 (all is similar) - have different movement, fell - after engagement they place resistance, it is matter of taste. I prefer KWJ in buttons, but I love D42 in Eurojoystick
D44 is very similar fell how KWJ but the point of activation is lower, for buttons KWJ is still more better, on stick it depends - on Wico Conical Joystick they do not work correctly, less diagonal than on KWJ, on other stick work OK and all is fine (iL-Eurojoystick, SUZO)

[RandyT]

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

No.  These are a very different model internally.  Also, note the words "Electrical Life at Rated Load".  This is what I was referring to with "contact life".  There are no official ratings for simple mechanical life.

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

 While working in the arcade... bad micros were replaced regularly.  Most failures
were not contact related.   The internal spring loses its snappy quality eventually.
At times, the actuator has a some wear too...  but mostly, its the spring that fails.

 Its very conceivable that mechanical failure is tested and rated.  Not to say that
everyone does this... but its actually something that is a requirement on something
like say.... the military would in fact ask for before ordering Any of such switches.

[kowal]

Best durability micro is old FREEPORT.ILL (now honeywell but new is not good as old). Black casing and green or grey plunger, terminals never have mildew or patina. looks like new after 15 years and work.

it is truee is blamee mini spring on micro, but meny micro unused spring: KWJ and FREEPORT.IL. They act longer, and has same push and sound

[RandyT]

While working in the arcade... bad micros were replaced regularly.  Most failures
were not contact related.   The internal spring loses its snappy quality eventually.
At times, the actuator has a some wear too...  but mostly, its the spring that fails.

 Its very conceivable that mechanical failure is tested and rated.  Not to say that
everyone does this... but its actually something that is a requirement on something
like say.... the military would in fact ask for before ordering Any of such switches.

In that event, the switch would have specific MILSPEC ratings and cost 20 to 30x more.  It would still be rated based on the power handling capabilities, as the mechanical life is expected to go well beyond the life of the contacts.  In cases where extra longevity is required, like in the military example you gave above, mechanical aspects would be beefed up to meet them.  One example would be the use of a coil spring, rather than the thin, flat metal "springs" used in the Cherry switches previously offered by HAPP (and also used in the newer E-Switch model)

In an arcade environment, you would never see a contact failure that was associated with the ratings given by the manufacturers, unless they were used in a door interlock system for the cabinet power, or something similar.  Of course any switch will fail over time, and it stands to reason that when a switch does not fail due to contact burning or pitting (or heat from arcing, etc) the failure will be associated with metal fatigue.  And with no way of knowing how many times those switches were actually depressed before failing, this really doesn't say anything significant.

In any event, here's something you should appreciate, Steve;  The E-switch is a blessing in disguise.  The design is very similar internally to the Cherry switch, but just different enough to allow it to be modified in a way that the Cherry can't.  Here's a hint....real leaf-switch-style performance  .  More on this soon....

RandyT

[SavannahLion]

In any event, here's something you should appreciate, Steve;  The E-switch is a blessing in disguise.  The design is very similar internally to the Cherry switch, but just different enough to allow it to be modified in a way that the Cherry can't.  Here's a hint....real leaf-switch-style performance  .  More on this soon....

I was going to post this exact request. I want to see what's going on inside these new E-Switches and how they differ (if any) from the Cherries.

[Xiaou2]

Randy,   Personally, I really do not care too much about the micro differences.  I was
merely making an point about mechanical failure.   As long as the micro is not too
hard to depress, nor too easy (usually too easy = fails much quicker),  then its decent
enough for the mame cab use,  Imop.

 I think Ive recall having a micro that had dual coil springs.  I think it was actually a really
nice switch actually.


 As for micro to leaf modification...  I personally do not think the performance and
feel will be equivalent... but who knows.   The biggest drawback is actually the Happ button assembly itself.   

 The Wico buttons have a very narrow center shaft, which not only makes the
buttons much more quiet  (happs have that horrible hollow sound),  but also makes
for less slop and smoother travel.   I was quite surprised at how much better they
feel and react that a standard happs button.   (The buttons max depth is a little too
much however, which is understandable considering the nature of typical leafs)

 

[Havok]

Here's a hint....real leaf-switch-style performance  .  More on this soon....

RandyT

There you go again - you're such a tease...

 

[opt2not]

Neh, doesn't matter to me. If it feels the same, and saves me money, then rock on.

Switches get replaced so frequently in our cabinets (our cabs get a LOT of use) that I could care less what brand they are. As long as the feel right and connect the same way, I'm happy.

[Ginsu Victim]

Neh, doesn't matter to me. If it feels the same, and saves me money, then rock on.

Switches get replaced so frequently in our cabinets (our cabs get a LOT of use) that I could care less what brand they are. As long as the feel right and connect the same way, I'm happy.

Compare a Sanwa and a Cherry and you'll care.

[MonMotha]

Compare a Sanwa and a Cherry and you'll care.

Actually, the only microswitches I've ever had to deal with that I would consider "utter garbage" were some Sanwa branded ones that came on a set of Ultimarc Ultralux buttons (good buttons otherwise, though).  I've become something of an Omron whore when it comes to microswitches, but that's just because they're pretty good and they are the OEM equipment on almost all of the cabinets I own.

As for Happ changing vendors, I'd pay it no mind.  They seemed to do almost no QA on their Cherry sourced switches, anyway.  I'm not even sure they always ordered the same part.  There certainly seems to be some pretty major differences between Happ supplied switches from ~2002 and the ones they've had recently, even on old stuff with very little use.

The E-Switch switches I've seen used (in VERY switch sensitive gaming applications, mind you) seem to fare just fine.  They don't feel 100% like the OEM part, but that was probably just because somebody failed to match specs, not due to any fault of the switch.

[Ginsu Victim]

Actually, the only microswitches I've ever had to deal with that I would consider "utter garbage" were some Sanwa branded ones that came on a set of Ultimarc Ultralux buttons (good buttons otherwise, though).

That's how I experienced them, as well.

[AndyWarne]

Microswitches used in gaming applications can and do experience contact problems and sometimes this can happen quite early in the lifetime of the switch.
The problem is lack of contact "wetting" which is an issue when contacts are used with very low currents. Tarnishing of the contacts will occur if the contacts have a wetting current which is above the current being switched.

Cherry switches are not immune to this. I have seen Cherry switches in the past which suffered really badly from this problem almost from new. The ones currently supplied by Happ are OK. Cherry switches sourced in various parts of the world have a different design, even a different casing colour even though the part number may be the same, and the quality has varied in the past.

We dont yet know if the E-Switches will suffer from any problems or not. They may well be fine. The point is though that the fact these are switching a low current does not mean the lifetime of the switch will be longer than any manufacturers stated life. It might well be much shorter.

I personally like Sanwa switches the best of all. The reason for this might be somewhat too objective though, I admit. Its because the output looks best on an oscilloscope, very little contact bounce and a nice clean make/break. A better signal then any Cherry switch. I accept that they are a heavier action than the Cherry switches though, and my criteria might not be the best way to subjectively judge a switch.

[MonMotha]

I personally like Sanwa switches the best of all. The reason for this might be somewhat too objective though, I admit. Its because the output looks best on an oscilloscope, very little contact bounce and a nice clean make/break. A better signal then any Cherry switch. I accept that they are a heavier action than the Cherry switches though, and my criteria might not be the best way to subjectively judge a switch.

The high actuation force (much too high for a gaming button application, in my opinion - I'm used to 75-150g, while those seemed like at least 250g) was the least of the problems my friend saw with his.  Within a week or two, two out of the 10 switches had failed.  They'd "stick" - that is, they'd hold for a period of time after you released them, often making and breaking contact rapidly during that "sticking" time.  It's not hard to debounce a switch (though one could argue all day as to preferred methods of doing it), but it's basically impossible to deal with behavior like that.

[Ummon]

I personally like Sanwa switches the best of all. The reason for this might be somewhat too objective though, I admit. Its because the output looks best on an oscilloscope, very little contact bounce and a nice clean make/break. A better signal then any Cherry switch.

Nice.

[RandyT]

Microswitches used in gaming applications can and do experience contact problems and sometimes this can happen quite early in the lifetime of the switch.
The problem is lack of contact "wetting" which is an issue when contacts are used with very low currents. Tarnishing of the contacts will occur if the contacts have a wetting current which is above the current being switched.
...
We dont yet know if the E-Switches will suffer from any problems or not. They may well be fine. The point is though that the fact these are switching a low current does not mean the lifetime of the switch will be longer than any manufacturers stated life. It might well be much shorter.

This is just a long way of saying "the contacts might tarnish".  Of course, the only contacts which will never tarnish are those made from gold, which most, including the Cherrys, are not. 

This "concern" is also failing to take into consideration two things;

1) Tarnishing of contacts is of most concern where humidity is very high and the contacts are exposed to surrounding air.  Due to the enclosed nature of the typical microswitch, there would be very little chance of this being a problem, unless you happen to live in a jungle.

2) One of the benefits of "snap" switches over conventional leaf type switches is the mechanical action that provides a consistent interaction between the contacts.  This interaction is literally the slamming together of two pieces of metal under spring tension.  As tarnish, especially as it first forms, is very, very thin, this slamming action serves to break through it to reestablish the contact surface every time it is actuated. 

It should probably also be mentioned that the harder and more solidly the contacts slam together, the less "bounce" will be detected on a scope.  But this usually equates to a harder actuation, which is detrimental to the feel of the switch, and possibly performance when being used in this application (gaming.)

There seems to be little point in bringing up theory of switch contact design and dynamics that don't apply significantly to the types of switches currently being discussed.

RandyT

[kowal]

Omron=trash? very interesting:PPPP
now Omron make best durability micro
V series have 50.000.000
I think it is best micro on world fell is very good, same clik, good plunger reflection, nice realization.  comparable quality have only MicroYamatace
but Omron V have 200g force to engage it is switch only for joystick
for buttons max is 100g, over>100 sux:P
on buttons I use only Chery (KWJ or D42) other good thing is SAIA X3 (something 90g) or Freeport witch grey-white plunger (something 85g), but I still will Cherry.

[RandyT]

Omron=trash? very interesting:PPPP
now Omron make best durability micro
V series have 50.000.000
I think it is best micro on world fell is very good, same clik, good plunger reflection, nice realization.  comparable quality have only MicroYamatace
but Omron V have 200g force to engage it is switch only for joystick
for buttons max is 100g, over>100 sux:P
on buttons I use only Chery (KWJ or D42) other good thing is SAIA X3 (something 90g) or Freeport witch grey-white plunger (something 85g), but I still will Cherry.

MonMotha didn't say Omron were "trash."  Your translator app doesn't understand slang.

[mvsfan]

if the e switch turns out to be crap, the solution is simple enough. you can always order cherry switches from digikey. 

[mvsfan]

if the e switch turns out to be crap, the solution is simple enough. you can always order cherry switches from digikey. 

personally i have a feeling that Cherry =ISO9000 certified
and Eswitch = made in chinese sweatshop.

[RandyT]

personally i have a feeling that Cherry =ISO9000 certified
and Eswitch = made in chinese sweatshop.

HAPP Cherrys were made in a Mexican "sweatshop" (your word, not mine.)  I fail to see a difference.

[MonMotha]

Omron=trash? very interesting:PPPP
now Omron make best durability micro
V series have 50.000.000
I think it is best micro on world fell is very good, same clik, good plunger reflection, nice realization.  comparable quality have only MicroYamatace
but Omron V have 200g force to engage it is switch only for joystick
for buttons max is 100g, over>100 sux:P
on buttons I use only Chery (KWJ or D42) other good thing is SAIA X3 (something 90g) or Freeport witch grey-white plunger (something 85g), but I still will Cherry.

Definitely a failure in translation.  "A <something> whore" in US slang commonly means that one expresses their preference for <something> freely, perhaps too freely.  I very much like the Omron V-10G-1C24-K.  I've bought like 25 of them just for myself and have bought perhaps 100 for others.  It's my preferred microswitch for gaming button applications.

As for the signal coming out of the Sanwas, if it's "clean", that's certainly awesome.  However, 20% failure rate after only 2 weeks of home usage is pretty abysmal.  I'll take a little bounce (which can easily be cleaned up) over a 20% failure rate any day.

As for ISO9000, I personally think it's something of a sham.  It doesn't mean that product quality is good; it just means that the manufacturer knows who to blame when there's a problem

[evitagen]

I'm on board with happs over Sanwa as well.

Also, thanks for the information RandyT.  I trust you on this issue as you've always really seemed to know what's up.  Will be ordering from you again soon!

These new switches don't bother me at all.  Oh and do you think you'll supply some convex happs buttons in the future?  I made a stick for someone that wanted these and was going to order from you and noticed you didn't have any.  I got them elsewhere but I did find that I really liked them.

[RandyT]

These new switches don't bother me at all.  Oh and do you think you'll supply some convex happs buttons in the future?  I made a stick for someone that wanted these and was going to order from you and noticed you didn't have any.  I got them elsewhere but I did find that I really liked them.

I will look into keeping some of these on hand.  We should also have another option for convex buttons soon as well.

RandyT

[evitagen]

Thanks.  I'll be ordering from you again soon once I start my new build, and I want to order all of my stuff from the same place.  You guys were really good to me last time I ordered so expect more business from me.

Oh yeah, speaking of happs and new parts, is the new black acuator happs uses now still sometimes randomly different?  I have a black one and a white one installed in my cab and I can't tell a difference.  But I have another black one that's pretty horrible.  Just curious about this, I know you were in touch with happs about it at one point I think.

[AndyWarne]

[quote author=MonMotha link=topic=93809.msg988366#msg988366 Within a week or two, two out of the 10 switches had failed.  They'd "stick" - that is, they'd hold for a period of time after you released them, often making and breaking contact rapidly during that "sticking" time.  It's not hard to debounce a switch (though one could argue all day as to preferred methods of doing it), but it's basically impossible to deal with behavior like that.
[/quote]
I cant explain this at all. A rough calculation shows we have sold around 43,000 of these switches, mostly on J-Stik joysticks (Sanwa UM-8), and not one report of failure until the ones you mention here. Will remain one of lifes great mysteries I suppose...

[Falkentyne]

Best durability micro is old FREEPORT.ILL (now honeywell but new is not good as old). Black casing and green or grey plunger, terminals never have mildew or patina. looks like new after 15 years and work.

it is truee is blamee mini spring on micro, but meny micro unused spring: KWJ and FREEPORT.IL. They act longer, and has same push and sound

How are we supposed to buy these?
Google was completely useless.....

[kowal]

not produced
NOS only, very hard too find

[kowal]

I get new stuff from my local SUZO and I get this "new" micro on all HAPP concave pushbuttons and HAPP Ultimate, on Competion I stiil get iL (PSL-L-CV) and 80% KWJ and 20% e-switch. I buy too 50pcs KWJ, I think to buy next 50pcs price is good 0,75$ for one switch.

and E-switch


  terminal look badly this is not copper (Cu) or silver (Ag), this look how normal aluminium (Al).

  case have weaker and uglier plastic hard too see on photo because it is white but difference is huge.

  have different point of activation on 10pcs: 5 have 1,5mm, 2 have - 1mm and 3 have - 2mm, on KWJ a get on 10psc: 4 -1,5mm, 6 - 1mm. e-swicth work how D44 not KWJ for me.

  e-switch is little harder but only 5g but meny switch have larger differences on copies larger than on KWJ series.

  "klik" is differ on copies, larger than on KWJ series

E-switch is not better from KWJ, it is not analog nor equivalents KWJ, true is they are worse than KWJ and other Cherry model like D-series


  E-switch is more similar to switchy Zippy (with white case and red plunger - Cherry imitation) than Cherry KWJ. This model Zippy come with Ultimate knockoff from coinopexpress http://www.coinopexpress.com/products/parts/joysticks/

[goldznnz]

now HAPP look only on price not on quality (China Competion (for You work identical like original), Chinese factories)
crisis xD

"Have you even seen one of the new ones yet to try them?"

no, I will not buy them

Anything here of use ?

http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/pdf/D4_Series.pdf

I have D41,D42, D44.
D41 and D43/D44 use CoinControl, and Wico
D42 use iL and SUZO, Ultimarc
D41/D42/D43 (all is similar) - have different movement, fell - after engagement they place resistance, it is matter of taste. I prefer KWJ in buttons, but I love D42 in Eurojoystick
D44 is very similar fell how KWJ but the point of activation is lower, for buttons KWJ is still more better, on stick it depends - on Wico Conical Joystick they do not work correctly, less diagonal than on KWJ, on other stick work OK and all is fine (iL-Eurojoystick, SUZO)

I know this is an old thread an topic but an IMPORTANT one for those interested!  
I also 100% agree with KOWAL on this subject

I have tried the new E-switch and compared it to the KWJA0017's.

point of engagements are very different
e-switch:  must be pressed almost all the way down to activate
kwja0017:  almost immediately activated when pressed

resistant/grams of force
E-SWITCH:  rated at 50 grams, but feels heavier/more effort to activate vs the KWJA series
KWJA0017: rated at 75 grams, requires less effort to press down vs the e-switch
I know this may seem odd that the e-switch is rated at a "softer" 50 grams of force but it
actually requires more effort to activate! Your fingers will get tired much faster esp with
fighting games using the E-SWITCH

quietness of switches
E-SWITCH: is louder more clicky than the KWJA0017
KWJA0017: is much quiter than the E-SWITCH brand, almost whisper quiet
I know this is a minor area of preference but this actually relates to the
required force to activate switches.

longevity/ mechanical cycles
have not used E-SWITCH brand long enough to "kill" one yet
but specs rated it at 1 million cycles vs the 10 million for KWJA0017.

for the average joe, they will not really notice any difference between the two. but for gamer/medium to hardcore gamer they will definitely feel the difference right off the bat. Its like the average person buy a home pc vs an enthusiast/knowledgeable shopper looking for that quality product.

I personally just don't like how the E-SWITCH engages near the "bottom" of the switch length vs immediate response from the KWJA0017's. Also the fact that the E-SWITCH requires more force to press down and activate vs the KWJA0017 can really make your fingers tired quickly especially with fighting games. I guess you may get use to this extra force on the E-SWITCHES. I guess you could compare it to a "hard" spring competition joystick vs a "soft" spring comeptition joystick.

*** side note i've also tested the D41C and the D44L
for some reason these are suppose to near identical to the KWJA0017's but there are some differences users should be aware of.

even though the D41C and D44L are both rated at 75 grams in their respective versions, The D41C feel much stiffer to activate vs the D44L. Since both of these use that spring mechanism for engagement, it  requires a bit more of travel to activate when comparing to the KWJA0017, but this difference is just a tiny bit more. And it is still much LESS when comparing to the E-SWITCH brand.

SO QUICK OVERVIEW:
best microswitch for buttons: KWJA0017
next best microswitch: D44LR1AA

I have been a long time gamer and do not mind spending more $$$ for quality parts in my setups
and again totally agree with Kowal on this microswitch topic

sorry if this post is mumble jumbled, but i thought i'd share my experiences for those interested

and now off to shopping for the hard to find KWJA0017 cherry microswitch... ... anybody know where i can
still purchase these???

I live in the USA and its been tough to get a hold of these KWJA0017. I have purchase a few hundred here and there, but still on the look out for more! I guess next best bet would be overseas/EUROPE
anybody???

[goldznnz]

Also does anybody know the exact model# of the new happ/E-SWITCH microswitch.

I know what the happ# is: 95-0733-90
but specifically looking for the E-swith model #

i went to the e-switch site and used their snap switch model "builder" and came
up with this part#:  LS 085 15 00 F050 C1 A

can anyone else verify if this is correct?

too bad happ no longer includes the "oem" part # on their e-switch microswitch
out of the bag of 50 i have not one has the e-switch part# or happ part # on it.
guess they save some cents here with no part # labels

[MonMotha]

Within a week or two, two out of the 10 switches had failed.  They'd "stick" - that is, they'd hold for a period of time after you released them, often making and breaking contact rapidly during that "sticking" time.  It's not hard to debounce a switch (though one could argue all day as to preferred methods of doing it), but it's basically impossible to deal with behavior like that.

I cant explain this at all. A rough calculation shows we have sold around 43,000 of these switches, mostly on J-Stik joysticks (Sanwa UM-8), and not one report of failure until the ones you mention here. Will remain one of lifes great mysteries I suppose...

Since this got bumped, I noticed I never replied, and you deserve some sort of closure on it.

I gather you've moved away from those switches at this point, so it's something of a moot point now.  Maybe my friend just had bad luck.  I seem to recall those switches felt a little "mushy" from the get-go.  We both keep lots of those Omron switches laying around since they're stock on many of the machines we have, so replacing them wasn't a big deal.

[RandyT]

Where to start ... I'm afraid you have your work cut out for you if you want to stay with those Cherry switches.  I suggest you move on to something like our "Groovy Standard Soft-Touch", which sounds like just what you are looking for.  But let me go though your points and let you know what you are facing.

I know this is an old thread an topic but an IMPORTANT one for those interested!  
I also 100% agree with KOWAL on this subject

I have tried the new E-switch and compared it to the KWJA0017's.

point of engagements are very different
e-switch:  must be pressed almost all the way down to activate
kwja0017:  almost immediately activated when pressed

Let me start off by saying that I have three switches here that I tested, 2 of the kwja0017 Cherry and 1 E-Switch.  I would be hard pressed to say that the actuation point was "very" different between one of the Cherry Switches and the E-Switch.  It's hard to see a difference, but if there is one, I would have to say it was maybe .010" or 10 thousandths of an inch lower on the E-Switch.  Not something that's really even perceivable on a button press.

But on the other Cherry switch (same "Mexico" HAPP model number), there is no doubt something is very different, and this discrepancy may very well be the reason I could not convince them something was amiss.  

resistant/grams of force
E-SWITCH:  rated at 50 grams, but feels heavier/more effort to activate vs the KWJA series
KWJA0017: rated at 75 grams, requires less effort to press down vs the e-switch
I know this may seem odd that the e-switch is rated at a "softer" 50 grams of force but it
actually requires more effort to activate! Your fingers will get tired much faster esp with
fighting games using the E-SWITCH

This is akin to stating that a 12lb bowling ball is easier to pick up than an 8lb one.  In other words, something is wrong.  I'm not sure where you are getting the specs for those particular Cherry switches, but I can assure you that they aren't rated at "75grams".  HAPP specified the E-Switch to have the same ratings as the KWJA0017 Cherry they used to use.  I just tested the actuation force on my lab scale and found that the E-Switch actuates right at about 50 grams of force, while the KWJA0017 Cherry actuates at about 47 grams.  In other words, not a big difference....Well, at least on one of them.  The other measured almost exactly 20grams of force.  Again, same model number.

quietness of switches
E-SWITCH: is louder more clicky than the KWJA0017
KWJA0017: is much quiter than the E-SWITCH brand, almost whisper quiet
I know this is a minor area of preference but this actually relates to the
required force to activate switches.

One more time.  The one Cherry is pretty much exactly the same volume, just a little higher frequency that the E-Switch.  The other Cherry, same model number, is half as loud.

longevity/ mechanical cycles
have not used E-SWITCH brand long enough to "kill" one yet
but specs rated it at 1 million cycles vs the 10 million for KWJA0017.

Don't go overboard on manufacturer reliability specs.  They can pretty much put whatever they want on there because they know that the most it will ever cost them is a replacement switch when it doesn't happen to perform as well as they claim.  And how many folks really know how many times a switch was actuated?  (damned few )

and now off to shopping for the hard to find KWJA0017 cherry microswitch... ... anybody know where i can
still purchase these???

I live in the USA and its been tough to get a hold of these KWJA0017. I have purchase a few hundred here and there, but still on the look out for more! I guess next best bet would be overseas/EUROPE
anybody???

As I stated at the top of this post the numbers don't seem to jive across the board.  Somewhere along the line, there were a bunch of Cherry switches that were made like you describe, and had an actuation force of 20grams.  These are the switches I had in my hand while unsuccessfully attempting to persuade HAPP and E-Switch that something was not right.  But all it looks like they knew was the printed spec, not what was actually being made and shipped.  So the E-Switches were made to the exact specifications of the earlier Cherry, and it is very, very close (again, same model number).  

So this is why we had some made to our specifications.  The Groovy "Standard Soft Touch" switch was made to go the Cherry switch (the one you like) even one better.  It's smoother, quieter, has a high actuation point, and actuates at around 15grams.  And, they are now the standard switch we ship with all of our buttons.  I think you will prefer these, even over the Cherry switches you like.

One more thing to consider; the new HAPP buttons (with the Suzo/HAPP logo) have a pre-engagement throw that is greater than they used to be.  Some like it that way, and some don't.   If you buy buttons and feel like they need to be pressed down too far to engage, then check this aspect.  I like them a little sharper myself, which is why we will be adding some standard buttons in the next day or so which behave more closely like the older design.

RandyT

[goldznnz]

RandyT, thanks for your input! I'm on lunch now and will get back to you.

RandyT in the meantime can you let me know how to go about on getting ahold of those
"groovy" microswitches you mentioned? thanks bro

[RandyT]

I'll get them on the site this evening. 

[bkenobi]

Looking at the buttons on your site, it appears that there are 4 switch options.  Which switch are you saying is the "good" Cherry replacement?

Standard Soft Touch™
Premium Groovy-Micro™ Soft-Touch
Versa-Micro™ User Adjustable Switch
Micro-Leaf™

I'm assuming one of the first two, but it's not really clear.  I bought my buttons from you a few years ago and they have Cherry's in them.  Are the switches you are talking about better quality than those, or basically the same with a slight improvement (as mentioned)?

I'm looking to replace the switches on my joysticks to get quicker acting and softer actuation.  From the sounds of it, the ones you are describing might fit the bill perfectly!

[RandyT]

Looking at the buttons on your site, it appears that there are 4 switch options.  Which switch are you saying is the "good" Cherry replacement?

Standard Soft Touch™
Premium Groovy-Micro™ Soft-Touch
Versa-Micro™ User Adjustable Switch
Micro-Leaf™

I'm assuming one of the first two, but it's not really clear.  I bought my buttons from you a few years ago and they have Cherry's in them.  Are the switches you are talking about better quality than those, or basically the same with a slight improvement (as mentioned)?

I'm looking to replace the switches on my joysticks to get quicker acting and softer actuation.  From the sounds of it, the ones you are describing might fit the bill perfectly!

The difference between the "Standard"and "Premium" are the contact specifications.  The "Premium" has industrial grade contacts, and is just a little lighter.  The Standard has a more consumer-friendly price, and a very high performance to cost ratio.  Both would be a fine choice for a joystick you want to quiet down, but not if the joystick relies on the tension in the switch to help it center.  For sticks with a weak return, or where even quieter actuation is desired, the Versa-Micros are a good choice.  Micro-Leafs surpass all of the other varieties in that they virtually disappear as far as tactile feedback is concerned, but they cannot be used with joysticks.

Hmmmm....probably should put that on the site somewhere.    But if that didn't answer the question, the Standard Soft Touch are, IMHO, better than the Cherry, and the Premiums are better yet, but at a cost.  I am referring primarily to their use in buttons, as joysticks will have a different dynamic based on the stick.

RandyT

[goldznnz]

Ok RandyT going to dissect your reply earlier, my goal is only to make this a productive discussion
no pun intended dawg  


ACTIVATION/ENGAGEMENT POINTS:

I have some old stock of KWJA, a few days back got an order of 100 KWJA from
aracade emulator.net So i have roughly about 400 KWJA's. I also have order of
50 E-switches from happ that came in over the weekend.

I didn't test every single one, but i sure tested ALOT of microswitch comparisons
between the cherry KWJA and the E-switch brand. The activation point differences was
very obvious, as in night and day my friend.

Take the E-switch micro and push the red actuator down until it clicks. It does not click
until it is almost "flesh" with the white plastic on the micro itself! This simple test
repeated same results over and over with little variances.

Now take a KWJA (cherry micro) push the red actuator down until it clicks. It barely even goes
a mm and it clicks away. Again simple test repeated with same results from old and new batches
of KWJA. If you try this with the D44L and D41C they activate jus a teeny bit lower than the KWJA's.

Conclusion: To me if the activation/engagement difference is as much as the "head" of the red
actuator itself, Thats a huge difference, infact enough where it can degrade my gameplay.  I play hardcore
fighting games like Marvel vs Capcom2 and precision is a must.
-------------------------------------------------------

GRAMS OF FORCE:

RandyT, All the invoices i have from previous Happ orders all show the KWJA / 95-0733-01 happ part#
to be rated at 75 grams. Even from cherrycorp site, look at their chart of the breakdown of the
KWJA0017 model# and it'll show KWJ + A = 75 grams.

link right here: http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/k.htm

RandyT, you say that "HAPP specified the E-Switch to have the same ratings as the KWJA0017 Cherry they used to use"
I find that quite hard to fully believe. I think Happ took the closest E-switch avail to "closely match"
the KWJA0017. Let me explain why. The E-switch LS model is rated at 15 amps while th KWJA is rated at
10 amps. The KWJA is rated at 75 grams of force, while the E-switch brand is rated at 50 grams. The differences plus the fact that the terminals on the e-switch are copper alloy plated vs the KWJA terminals being brass copper(not plated).  So to say E-switch has the same ratings as the KWJA is misleading by the least    

Conclusion: There is E-switch is a "close" match to KWJA specs but not exact. They may be using a different
method in calculating grams of force between the KWJA and the e-switch causing this discrepency. KWJA is
definitely softer of the two micros.
--------------------------------------------------------

VOLUME LEVEL OF MICROSWITCH:

You mention the E-switch has a higher frequency. This could quite possbily be why is sounds "louder". I would consider this but going back and testing volume levels, The E-switch is noticeably louder vs KWJA. There could be
"different makes" of the KWJA causing this difference. I know cherry has their stuff made in mexico, china, and
even india i think. So it could be one's guess on quality control from those regions

Conclusion: The KWJA is the quiter of the two. KWJA has a "softer" click noise vs the E-switch. Also this volume
level difference is a very minor concern, just something to be mentioned.
--------------------------------------------------------

LONGEVITY/ MECHANICAL CYCLES:

I agree with you on this topic. I remember Happ site when they sold KWJA's to "reliably tested over 10 million
cycles". This was specifically on their site describing their cherry micro's. Even other sites have this same claim with the cherry micro's. I wonder if Happ did this 10 million cycle test or who did it? I don't know for sure if the KWJA really last 10 million cycles, but i know  those bad boyz can go for a long time!!!  
--------------------------------------------------------

HAPP, E-SWITCH, GROOVY SST

I really give you credit stepping up to Happ about the microswitch differences, really I do! I had done the
same thing when Happ bought up Wico/Perfect 360 joysticks. When Happ took over, quality control fell apart like
a sand house on a rainy day. I went to TRI-STAR plastics to have custom replacement parts made especially
for the P360. There were frictional/grinding issue with the ciruclar hubplate and the spring bearing washer. I
spent a few thousand dollars on prototypes and got it right. Still can't beleive Happ took a great product and
used sub-optimal materials and almost ruin one of the best joysticks ever.

You mentioned, let me paraphrase it, "all it looks like they knew was the printed spec, not what was actually being
made and shipped." Man i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, seriously i wouldn't!

The Groovy SST sounds like a wonderful micro. If you don't mind me asking who/company made it?
Does it have the snap mechanism or the spring mechanism?

RandyT, right now I am so hyped up to purchase and test out the Groovy SST's , will be checking your site tonight!
So please get them listed or let me know how to get them!  

CONCLUSION: It can be possible that specs listed by happ/cherry/e-switch may only be whats printed and not the
"real specs" themselves. So it may be necessary to do a simple test on batches of micros to be sure they are
what you wanted.

PERSONALLY: You would think a any micro would do, I means its just a switch closing a circuit, but the reality
is there is more to it than that for an enthusiast. I may be bold in saying this but i think this is what most people
are looking for in a good microswitch:

1)responsiveness, quick engagement (as you said a "sharp" feel)
2)light pressure to activate, ~50-75 grams of force, maybe even less after i test out Groovy SST!
3)mechanical cycle longevity, if its true the cherry can go 10 million cycles, this fits me superbly

minor qualities:
a)micro click loudness
b)terminal & blade composition materials

Last quick point: COST
I know that cost is an issue with most so a product like the E-switch not a bad alternative to get a cheap micro. But for a little more bling you can get a solid micro. Too bad good things like the KWJA don't last forever, damned economy and business practices. lol

I hope this topic to be helpful and productive for those seeking this info.

Thanks agains for everyone's input

[RandyT]

I didn't test every single one, but i sure tested ALOT of microswitch comparisons
between the cherry KWJA and the E-switch brand. The activation point differences was
very obvious, as in night and day my friend.

I think what you will find is that the tension after actuation is higher on the Cherry's than it is on the E-Switch.  It's difficult to stop the travel on the E-Switch, because the bottom drops out.  It makes you think the actuation point is lower than it is.  But if you are comparing it to a "20-25 gram switch" with the same model number, like the one I told you I tested, I'm not surprised at your conclusion.  It's the same one I came to with that switch.

Conclusion: There is E-switch is a "close" match to KWJA specs but not exact. They may be using a different
method in calculating grams of force between the KWJA and the e-switch causing this discrepency. KWJA is
definitely softer of the two micros.

Well, there is really only one method to calculate it.  It's standardized, and I'm not responsible for any misleading here.  The parts are, what the parts are.  I guess the only thing I can tell you is that the supposed "75 gram" switch is no such thing.  If it were, you would absolutely hate it and you obviously don't .  And to further complicate the issue, HAPP doesn't actually connect a model number to the part number (online catalog), but it does say 75gram.  The Cherry documentation also states "75gram", but even the stiffer parts are not 75 gram, rather closer to 50.

The only thing that can be extrapolated from this mess is that the Cherry switch everyone liked was likely a mistake, and when the price was jacked up on the Cherry's, HAPP probably used stock on hand as a reference.  I'll give you 2 guesses what that stock most likely measured for actuation force.  BTW, I'm using a little inside info here, having spoken to both companies about this.

You mention the E-switch has a higher frequency. This could quite possbily be why is sounds "louder". I would consider this but going back and testing volume levels, The E-switch is noticeably louder vs KWJA. There could be
"different makes" of the KWJA causing this difference. I know cherry has their stuff made in mexico, china, and
even india i think. So it could be one's guess on quality control from those regions

Conclusion: The KWJA is the quiter of the two. KWJA has a "softer" click noise vs the E-switch. Also this volume
level difference is a very minor concern, just something to be mentioned.

I'm thinking you are still trying to extrapolate data from the "good" (mistake) Cherry switch, not the one with the specifications that are the closest to that on the Cherry Website.  Like I wrote earlier, I have 2 of them here with that exact same model number, but are almost identical to the E-Switch.  And I think I stated that the Cherry switch was higher frequency.  

I wonder if Happ did this 10 million cycle test or who did it? I don't know for sure if the KWJA really last 10 million cycles, but i know  those bad boyz can go for a long time!!!  

If it ain't in the Cherry documentation, then it ain't true.  And it ain't in the Cherry documentation.  Of course anyone can test a few switches and make any claim they want.  But I wouldn't expect Cherry to warranty a cheap switch for more than a million actuations.  It's a pretty fantastic thing that a mechanism that costs so little could even approach that longevity.

Still can't beleive Happ took a great product and used sub-optimal materials and almost ruin one of the best joysticks ever.

While I can't comment on that situation, ask me about 49-ways sometime (but not now, please...)

CONCLUSION: It can be possible that specs listed by happ/cherry/e-switch may only be whats printed and not the
"real specs" themselves. So it may be necessary to do a simple test on batches of micros to be sure they are
what you wanted.

Absolutely.  I have switches here to prove it.  75 to 50 is a heck of a drop, but nothing like the drop from 75 to the 20-25 gram switches everyone liked.  I honestly can't imagine using a 75gram switch in a pushbutton, and can only imagine that it was a legacy figure that had little semblance to the real parts.

I may be bold in saying this...

It's a little bold, but not terribly.  For some, a decent switch that gets rid of the dreaded "click" and dropaway feeling is the holy grail.  Each individual will put those things in a different order, based on what they were used to, or what they are trying to achieve.  Lots of folks play their cabs often, but they seldom get the abuse that a cab out "on route" will see, so even sick longevity isn't the issue for most that you might think.

RandyT

[goldznnz]

Right on RandyT! I see you put the Groovy Standards up for individual sale.

Just waiting on you to also put the Premium Groovy-Micros up for sale too, please let us know.  

Also would it be okay to tell others about your custom microswitches?
If so I'm afraid your stock might get depleted quickly, I'll wait for your okay on this first.

[bkenobi]

Thanks for the info.  I'll have to get some Soft Touch switches to play with then!

[goldznnz]

I hope I'm not being a "pest" but RandyT when are you going to add the Premium Groovy-Micros to the site for individual purchase?

thanks! 

[RandyT]

I hope I'm not being a "pest" but RandyT when are you going to add the Premium Groovy-Micros to the site for individual purchase?

Sorry, I had to get some more pushbuttons added first.  Yes, I will be adding them tonight.

[RayB]

It does not click
until it is almost "flesh" with the white plastic on the micro itself!

The word you were looking for is "flush".
 

[delta88]

yep, multiple pages regarding MS's.

Dang, crappy switches make it more arcade like. I never had a choice when going to the laundry mat and that total carnage had the one direction that sucked but I delt with it and it made me a better gamer

[goldznnz]

I finally placed an order with you RandyT under the name: Steven Kim  

I waited and waited for those premiums to go online for sale but to no avial. I finally decided to just order some
pushbuttons with the premiums, just to get the premiums groovy micros  

anyways taking your advice, just ordered a small batch out and checking them out first. hopefully their "good as" or even better than the KWJA's!  I got lucky and was able to come across a few hundred more KWJA's the other day too!

now just gotta wait for USPS  

EDIT:

Hey RandyT, you never answered my questions on what type of mechanism is in your GROOVY microswitches

is it a snap mechanism?
or
is it the spring mechanism?

I'd hate to crack open a good microswitch just to find out! thanks RandyT

[RandyT]

Both varieties use coil spring based mechanisms.  I think you will be pleased.

RandyT

[bkenobi]

Awe crap!  I just realized that none of these switches will work for me cause I need ones with levers.   

[RandyT]

Awe crap!  I just realized that none of these switches will work for me cause I need ones with levers.   

If you have switches you are replacing, it's not terribly difficult to transplant the levers into the SST or Versa-Micro.  You just need to separate the casing just enough to free the lever and do the same to install it.  As long as you don't open them all of the way, you don't have to worry about the guts of the switch falling out.

[bkenobi]

I had wondered about trat in the past, but never worked up the courage to pull my switches apart to check.  Good to know!