Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com  (Read 21101 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bluedeath

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Last login:June 19, 2014, 11:20:09 am
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2009, 05:53:22 am »
Do you think that is possible to light your handles with a UV led  inside of the stick?
I give up  fighting keyboard dislexia, I lost.

MrMojoZ

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 291
  • Last login:June 25, 2009, 11:34:56 pm
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2009, 09:21:15 am »
Not really much choice, either one of these http://happcontrols.com/joysticks/50997000.htm  http://happcontrols.com/joysticks/95070100.htm or an old Tron/Satan's Hollow base.  Other than that, you'll have to make a custom base which a few have done, myself included.

Bleh, kills my cost window. I'll wait and see how the adaptor kits mentioned on the GGG site end up, thanks.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2009, 07:09:59 pm »
Quote
Not relevant to this thread....

 Actually, it was relevant to the argument.  When losing an argument, you
shouldnt use the "does not belong in the thread escape".

Quote
Not hard at all.  Operators shoot cleaners at the controls which leave residue, soda gets spilled, etc., etc...  Take any old control that's been in the field and open it.  Where do you think any of that filth comes from?

 Heh.  I worked in the arcade cleaning up the messes daily for 3yrs.  Im more than
familiar with how things work, get dirty...etc.   I can assure you that it due to the
position of the pivot point, it would be difficult to clog up. Gravity as
well as the overhang work against it.  Also, the metal leaf is on the backside - which
means that it can not help keep the pivot point clean.  The leaf can however
protect the microswitch from crud.  Just as I had explained before.


Quote
You are quite incorrect.  I just put some digital calipers on a standard HAPP button with the big, normal, Cherry switch.  I zeroed it when it clicked.  I then opened the calipers until it released and noted the distance.  Steve, it was 1/4 mm or less, every time.  As I stated, the issue isn't the "reset" of the switch, it's the individual's ability to find it and keep the plunger there.

 I re-measured the happs cherry micro. (not too easy due to the rounded top of the
actuator)  It was no less than 3/4ths of a MM to activation.  (if not a hair bit more)   Not only that... But just as I had relayed before... you can not easily stop the activation and pull out of it when its mounted in a happs button assembly.   The switch ends up bottoming out most times, which is about 2mm travel. This is mostly due to the
force required to push the switch over the activation point + the mass of the button
assembly itself.

 A leaf switch does not have such great initial resistance, so there is no snap to overcome...thus easy to keep from bottoming out the switch.  And one can easily
bounce in and out of that paper thin area with almost no effort at all.   A micro is IMPOSSIBLE to do that with such small tolerances.   You will always get at least 3/4th mm  but more likely the full 2mm of travel per button press.  Anyone can try it - and prove it to themselves.


Quote
Well, since you don't have one of the trigger assemblies and haven't tried it, I don't know how you could be.  But I am.

 Im going by scientific principles,  as well as experience between leaf and micro buttons
that I own and use.

 
 I appreciate the Option for Micro-Leafs.  However, just because that option does
exist.. .does not make it the best option.   

 If you are taking these as person attacks, then you are mistaken to do so.  Samely,
its not an attack on your product.  Its more like a case for Another Option to be
available at best... and at worst,  a simple case to show people why leafs are
important for classics... and why they are superior in gameplay in many instances.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #83 on: May 13, 2009, 08:39:52 pm »
Actually, it was relevant to the argument.  When losing an argument, you
shouldnt use the "does not belong in the thread escape".

No, your original tirade was misplaced in this thread,  No-one was talking about the tangent that you strangely headed off in.

Quote
Heh.  I worked in the arcade cleaning up the messes daily for 3yrs.  Im more than familiar with how things work, get dirty...etc.   I can assure you that it due to the position of the pivot point, it would be difficult to clog up.

Then you would also know that just friction can cause small particulate matter to wear from the socket and the pivot arms, which can do the same thing.  That heavy spring is a pound of prevention.


Quote
I re-measured the happs cherry micro. (not too easy due to the rounded top of the actuator)  It was no less than 3/4ths of a MM to activation. 

*sigh*  Again, you were talking about the snap reset distance and now you want to change it to the distance to activation.  Whatever, Steve.

Quote
...  a simple case to show people why leafs are important for classics... and why they are superior in gameplay in many instances.

And again, wrong thread for that.  Please start your own thread if you would like to champion leaf switches for classic pushbuttons.  The topic was never brought up in this one by anyone but you.

RandyT

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #84 on: May 13, 2009, 11:57:34 pm »
Quote
So many may find the softer action of the replacement to be preferable over the original, especially when using the handle for games where the rate and quantity of fire is higher than the games for which these controls were originally designed.

Quote
The topic was never brought up in this one by anyone but you.

 
 You brought up Opinions about original controls -vs- modified controls  and how people
seem to believe that classics do not require high fire rates.. and that the controls
are not designed for high fire rates.   All of this is BS...  to which I stated my points: 
That many people use Leafs incorrectly,  which would Lead to those poor
opinions and assumptions.


Quote
Again, you were talking about the snap reset distance and now you want to change it to the distance to activation.  Whatever, Steve.

 You dont make sense to me.   A micro is Off Until it snaps.  WHen the snap has
completed - the circuit is completed.  Not before that point.  That is the entire
Point of a Micro.   To make the contact only when absolutly sure... and when that
contact is made.. it stick there until certain distance is traveled in reverse.

 The activation point  (completing a circuit)  is at least 3/4th a mm.  If you are
getting less than that, you have faulty switches which are shorting out.  It happens
when they get older and beat up.


 And, as I was saying, It doesnt even matter that it takes 3/4 mm to complete
a circuit with a typical micro... because you usually can not stop at that point due
to mechanical forces generated.  Thus end up with a 2mm distance no matter what.

 I wont comment further on this thread about this.  Ive made my points.

genesim

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
  • Last login:April 12, 2010, 08:18:42 pm
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2009, 12:18:38 am »
1up you said it broke, I am just stating the strength of the Heavy Duty.   Not saying that you don't have a great point with cost.

But what works is what works, and my mod has no problems.  But yes it is damn expensive.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2009, 12:25:58 am »
You brought up Opinions about original controls -vs- modified controls  and how people seem to believe that classics do not require high fire rates.. and that the controls are not designed for high fire rates.   All of this is BS...  to which I stated my points:  That many people use Leafs incorrectly,  which would Lead to those poor opinions and assumptions.

Please try to understand context.  Hell, just read what I wrote.  None of the games which use this controller have the high speed and quantity of fire requirements compared to a game like Defender, Stargate, Asteroids, etc.   Gorf, TRON, and Satan's Hollow had very modest requirements in this regard.  This is not "BS" and again, had nothing to do with your tangent.

Quote
You dont make sense to me.   A micro is Off Until it snaps.  WHen the snap has completed - the circuit is completed.  Not before that point.  That is the entire
Point of a Micro.   To make the contact only when absolutly sure... and when that contact is made.. it stick there until certain distance is traveled in reverse.

Correct.  And that reverse travel is 1/4mm or less.  Not 1mm, not 3/4mm, but 1/4mm or less.  The distance to actuation is irrelevant to the speed of a microswitch.  It is the reset distance and it is the specification that most closely relates to "contact bouncing" you seem to favor on a leaf switch.  One can indeed take advantage of this with some practice, but a switch with a lighter spring and shorter set/reset action positioned at the begining of the throw, as with the Micro-Leafs, makes this much much easier to achieve.

RandyT

TheShanMan

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1912
  • Last login:October 22, 2024, 11:51:12 am
    • My Arcade (updated 1/30/13)
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2009, 12:44:56 am »
xiaou2, must you keep crapping in this product announcement thread?

shilmover, looking forward to your trigger switch pics. ;D
My Collection: Mame cab, 38 dedicated vids, pin, skeeball, coin op air hockey table, Ice Cold Beer, Megatouch, 2 token machines, and payphone (VAPS, pics at Arcade Crusade)

Add Ambience to your mame cab setup

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2009, 01:24:36 am »
1up you said it broke, I am just stating the strength of the Heavy Duty.   Not saying that you don't have a great point with cost.

But what works is what works, and my mod has no problems.  But yes it is damn expensive.

I said the first design broke, the one I am using now (using 49way base and grommet) works much better and would probably work very nice with an Ultra 360 board.

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


genesim

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
  • Last login:April 12, 2010, 08:18:42 pm
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2009, 03:09:47 am »
Thats very good.   As a rule the pressure should never be on the base with a flight stick as monsterous as this.   Call it expensive..call it alot of metal, but the Happs Heavy Duty is built like a tank.   The mod only serves as a bottom to catch the movement, but the pressure is on the cage at the top, no doubt about that.

Any other design is just going to promote breakage.   

You cannot have a rubber grommet in the middle and then one at the bottom, that is two pivot points and it will have all the effects of a fat guy on a seesaw with a little guy.   Sooner or later, that guy is going to go flying.   Unless..he is really really strong.   That is why I stuck to the original design.   It was a good one!

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2009, 01:50:42 pm »
There is only one grommet.  Basically a mini version of the Happ base.  <sigh>  I will post pics of my base soon, and then you will understand. 

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2009, 05:04:28 pm »
Quote
None of the games which use this controller have the high speed and quantity of fire requirements compared to a game like Defender, Stargate, Asteroids, etc.   Gorf, TRON, and Satan's Hollow had very modest requirements in this regard.  This is not "BS" and again, had nothing to do with your tangent.


 Watch Level 5 video.  Most notably the MCP cone stage:

Quote


And

 
Quote

 Skip ahead to time key of  "6:10"

 
 Sorry, but you are mistaken as proven in both vids.  The rates are very comparable
if not surpass Asteroids.


 And btw - I wasnt only referring to actual games but rather that a happs micro can be activated repeatedly Faster than a Leaf. Sorry, but it IS BS.   Mechanically, a leaf can re-fire faster period.  Its simple science.

 All those games listed with supposed higher fire rates all used Leafs.  And anyone who
owns those machines (such as myself) knows better than to replace the leafs with micros.  Most especially a game like asteroids deluxe.


Quote
Correct.  And that reverse travel is 1/4mm or less.
 

 My apologies.   I now understand my error in Bounce distance.   However, just as
stated... a switch that has no snap-force will be much easier to maintain faster
re-cycles.  (as well as standing by my argument that most people will bottom out
a micro due to the nature of the happ button assembly)

 Also, if attempting to stay in the 'bounce area' with a micro, its very easy to accidentally
go too light and not far enough... which wont trigger the switch.  This is a lot more
rare to happen on a leaf - which has no high-resistance point like a micro does.

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2009, 07:11:56 pm »
What's a good source of leaf switches for this stick?

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2009, 12:12:40 am »
Watch Level 5 video.  Most notably the MCP cone stage:

What about it?  One sub game in a later level?  Stargate, Defender and Asteroids require that virtually from the beginning of the game all the way through!

Quote
And - Skip ahead to time key of  "6:10"

Nothing so very notable there.

Quote
And btw - I wasnt only referring to actual games but rather that a happs micro can be activated repeatedly Faster than a Leaf. Sorry, but it IS BS.   Mechanically, a leaf can re-fire faster period.  Its simple science.

Would you like to show where anyone said this?  Responding to your strawmen is starting to become tiresome.  The sticks, as shipped today, don't come with leaf switches, and are a bear to activate the triggers.  The guy in level 5 MCP was certainly not using one of these.  You assumed I meant something I did not.  "Out of the box" means a NEW control, not a 28 year old piece someone has been hoarding.  I can guarantee that one would be able to pull the trigger as fast, if not faster, and for longer durations with one of my small switch assemblies than the standard one that comes with the new sticks "out of the box".  Why bother making a comparison with something that can't be bought?  :banghead:

Quote
... a switch that has no snap-force will be much easier to maintain faster re-cycles.  (as well as standing by my argument that most people will bottom out a micro due to the nature of the happ button assembly) 

 Also, if attempting to stay in the 'bounce area' with a micro, its very easy to accidentally go too light and not far enough... which wont trigger the switch.  This is a lot more  rare to happen on a leaf - which has no high-resistance point like a micro does.

Steve, you have to be careful with the generalizations.  Technically, the Micro-Leaf switches we offer are as much microswitches as the stock HAPP pushbuttons switches.  However, there is no "snap force" that needs to be overcome, the reset distance is less than half of the larger ones and it is mounted in such a way that the beginning of the coveted "bounce area" is just hair below the top of the travel, so one always knows "where it is".  All microswitches are not created equal, and all of the things you are talking about are variables that the factory alters based on the intended use of the switch.  For what they are, the HAPP Cherry's are very good compared to what comes with cheaper buttons.  Given your obvious bent for leaf switches, I am going to assume that you have these on your panel.  This makes you a poor reference for what an individual can or cannot  do with micro's, as players will adapt to their controls.  You haven't because you refuse to.  That's fine, but I can tell you that I, and I am sure others, are able to do some of the things on standard HAPP micro's that you think are extremely difficult or impossible to do. 

In any event, there is no BS here.  You simply misunderstood, or ignored the context of the discussion and went straight into defense mode.

RandyT
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 12:33:04 am by RandyT »

genesim

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 810
  • Last login:April 12, 2010, 08:18:42 pm
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2009, 12:39:21 am »
Hey man, I am not putting your mod down and do post!

I am speaking about stress on the bottom vs the top.   If you found a way I am more then willing to concede.

Don't sigh.   Just talking theory.   I am sure with a snapped base or whatever problem you had, you are worked toward correcting it.

As did I with alot of preliminary screwups.

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2009, 02:59:39 pm »
Hey man, I am not putting your mod down and do post!

I am speaking about stress on the bottom vs the top.   If you found a way I am more then willing to concede.

Don't sigh.   Just talking theory.   I am sure with a snapped base or whatever problem you had, you are worked toward correcting it.

As did I with alot of preliminary screwups.

Yep, I understand what you mean, but for me the stress was not a problem because I mounted my handles much lower on the shaft than the Happ sticks are.  So there is less leverage.  It may not work well for people who really punish their controls but I'm not that rough when I play, so for me a plastic base works out pretty good.  I promise I'll post something on that soon, right now I'm kind of busy between work, taking orders, and fixing up my cabinet.

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2009, 05:42:53 pm »
Quote
are a bear to activate the triggers.  The guy in level 5 MCP was certainly not using one of these.

 A: They are only a Bear to Start activation,  yet fairly effortless to re-bounce.

 B: Want to bet?   Ive attained and passed that level at my friends Tron which has the
original leafs on it.     A game is designed around its controls, and so even if you
didnt believe me (and were not enthusiastic enough to ask other classic game
players)    one can easily deduce logically that a programmer will not make a
game impossible to pass a certain level due to not physically being able to
fire fast enough.


Quote
Given your obvious bent for leaf switches, I am going to assume that you have these on your panel.  This makes you a poor reference for what an individual can or cannot  do with micro's, as players will adapt to their controls.

 You assume wrong.

 I have BOTH Leafs and Micros.   Micros for general games and fighters, and leafs
for rapidfire classics such as Asteroids Deluxe. 


 Id say that out of the two of us..  I am a much better reference for control advice.
Considering that you seem to be on the "Casual Gamer Level".   You have little
experience with these games beyond the 1st few levels... where things are pretty
easy.   Which is why you didnt realize the 3 powerups in Satans Hallow which
increases the fire rate 3 fold - which occurs relatively quickly in the game.  Same for
Tron, which starts to get heavy in the 3rd to 4th rounds in both the spider and
MCP levels. 

 You want to know why I scrapped my massive 6 sided control panel?

 Because I had recently discovered a game I skipped over in my Youth.  Robotron.
Which I quickly found out was near impossible to play well without real wico leaf
8ways.   As well as then learning the Leaf button rapidfire trick, and why they
are superior for certain games.    Because of these discoveries... I realized I could
not be happy with the layouts that I had originally built... and had to re-design
everything from scratch.  (In addition to deciding to make it sit-down as well)


Quote
Why bother making a comparison with something that can't be bought?

 The Idea here is to promote the possibility of a New product being produced and
sold.



RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2009, 06:51:52 pm »
Quote
are a bear to activate the triggers.  The guy in level 5 MCP was certainly not using one of these.

 A: They are only a Bear to Start activation,  yet fairly effortless to re-bounce.

 B: Want to bet?   Ive attained and passed that level at my friends Tron which has the original leafs on it.

Oh my god, Steve, would you please read before replying.  I'm starting to think you are doing this on purpose now.  I was referring to the new sticks with hard leaf SPRING and microswitch.  Please, for the sake of my sanity, try to keep up.

Quote
You assume wrong.

I have BOTH Leafs and Micros.   Micros for general games and fighters, and leafs for rapidfire classics such as Asteroids Deluxe. 

Some have learned to do well with micros for nearly everything.  You admit to picking and choosing the ones you use to do certain things,  which proves my assumption to be correct.

Quote
The Idea here is to promote the possibility of a New product being produced and sold.

Uh huh...you got a funny way of trying to get that done...

RandyT

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2009, 07:21:35 pm »
Id say that out of the two of us..  I am a much better reference for control advice.   Considering that you seem to be on the "Casual Gamer Level".   You have little experience with these games beyond the 1st few levels... where things are pretty easy.   Which is why you didnt realize the 3 powerups in Satans Hallow which increases the fire rate 3 fold - which occurs relatively quickly in the game. 

Just to see what in heck you were talking about, I just played Satan's Hollow up to level 16.  I remain unimpressed.  It takes 3 seconds for the missiles to get to the top of the screen.....

Satan's Hollow is more about timing of your shots than laying down massive fire power.  Perhaps you should re-aquaint yourself with it?

RandyT

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2009, 07:23:56 pm »
Why not just ASK and skip all the extra  :blah:?  Ripping someone's choice of materials in an existing product and then expecting them to design something to your specs is just kinda...  :dunno

I ask again: what company is a good source of leaf switches that will fit this stick?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 09:00:30 pm by 1UP »

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #100 on: May 15, 2009, 10:04:59 pm »
Quote
Oh my god, Steve, would you please read before replying.  I'm starting to think you are doing this on purpose now.  I was referring to the new sticks with hard leaf SPRING and microswitch.  Please, for the sake of my sanity, try to keep up.

 Are Happs Leafs any harder than the originals?   If so, its news to me.  I assumed
that due to cost, there would be no such change made.

Quote
Some have learned to do well with micros for nearly everything.  You admit to picking and choosing the ones you use to do certain things,  which proves my assumption to be correct.

 You assumed that I only had preference from a one sided perspective... with no
experience with the other.   

 Ive used Micros for Years.  In fact, much much longer than Leafs.  In the arcade, I
Hated them due to them getting out of whack too often, and needing cleaning.  Didnt understand their value.. and sadly, I chucked boxes of them in the trash.

 Sure, I CAN play Asteroids Deluxe with a Micro.  But considering how much more
it Fatigues my hands... and how its fire rate is slower and more awkward.. Ive
now chosen to use leafs.    Just because I CAN be good with Micros does not mean
a thing... when I can be BETTER with Leafs.  Most especially on a game like Robotron.

Quote
Uh huh...you got a funny way of trying to get that done...

 There are quite a few vendors who make things here without actually consulting
with the masses.   They believe that just because something is how They think it
should be done... or how They like things... that everyone should be the same.

 You can post all your fan mails from those same people and it wont change a
thing.   There are a lot of people that may prefer a different method.  In fact
probably a much wider audience... such as to include actual classic game owners too.

 I merely point out what I have discovered with my own experiences and
realizations.   Offense should not be taken over such a thing... especially when we
are talking about classic gaming.  Never once did I RIP apart the product.  I simply said
that it was not everyones cup of tea, which is in fact true.


Quote
Just to see what in heck you were talking about, I just played Satan's Hollow up to level 16.  I remain unimpressed.  It takes 3 seconds for the missiles to get to the top of the screen.....

 Up to 16 means little.   You have to build the bridge to get to the right side of the off-screen then fight the small Pitch-Fork tossing satan.  After you
defeat him,  you get a 2nd gun.  If you do not die... and can repeat this all over again,
you get yet a 3rd gun.   You can lay down a good stream of bullets in about less than
1" apart... not counting if you actually hit a target which probably gets you faster reload.
It matters little that the bullets are slow to exit the screen.  What matters is how many
you can lay down in such a short time.

 In fact, in asteriods, you can only get about 4 or 5 bullets on screen, and the
distance between bullets is about the same as satans hallow when you have
2 or 3 guns working.

 Have you also played Trons level 5?  Use a cheat to get there if you must... and then
try to beat the mcp without the cheat on.  Even the spider stage is pretty darn hard
up there.



Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2009, 10:24:41 pm »
Quote
Why not just ASK and skip all the extra

 If someone had asked me to make a specialized Modified Leaf switch back when
I was about 25.. I would have laughed at them.  I hated them.. and had no
idea of their true value and potential.

 In order to change my opinion,  I got razzed by enough people who knew about
real leafs value.. which made me wonder why so many people would fight so
hard for them.   I started to get pissed and decided to try to prove them wrong
by getting my own feedback.   I soon became a convert. (after I realized my mistake
in how to operate them properly)

 There is no BS in my posts.

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2009, 10:59:49 pm »
Quote from: Xiaou2

 There is no BS in my posts.


Yeah, you're right 100% of the time.

Did I say BS?  I'm just saying, you do a whole lot of talking instead of cutting to the chase and saying "Hey Randy, why don't you think about making leaf switches to go with these sticks."  If that was your true intention as you say...

Whateva.  ::)

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2009, 11:07:06 pm »
Are Happs Leafs any harder than the originals?   If so, its news to me.  I assumed
that due to cost, there would be no such change made.

Just by virtue of it being new (remember, we are talking about a piece of spring steel here, not a switch) it is going to be a lot firmer than a piece of metal that has been flexed for years and years.  Also, there is a beefy microswitch underneath it, not a leaf switch.  That means you can't just "bounce" the contacts, rather you need to actually cycle the switch through that tough piece of metal.  And this one isn't one of the soft pushbutton types of micros.

Quote
Just because I CAN be good with Micros does not mean a thing... when I can be BETTER with Leafs.  Most especially on a game like Robotron.

This is really off topic, but the leaf switches have less to do with your scores on Robotron than the rest of the makeup of the stick.  The rubber grommet centering and the actuation means is more important here.  Put micros on that stick (properly...as in the WICO microswitch sticks) and you'll likely find little difference.  Pretty poor example.

Quote
I simply said that it was not everyones cup of tea, which is in fact true.

It's also true that many things in life "go without saying".  Is it really necessary to crap on everything merely because it isn't your cup of tea?  You are being defensive when there was no offense.  Your universe is safe.

Quote
Up to 16 means little.   You have to build the bridge to get to the right side of the off-screen then fight the small Pitch-Fork tossing satan. 

I know how to play the game...I got the "powerups"....That little critter on the right side of the bridge can be easier to knock off than the big one on the left.  I state again, it is not a rapid fire game.  It's actually much better than that.  Proper use of the shield and strategic kills in exchange for bridge sections, are far more important than pulling the trigger as fast as you can.  This is one game where killing everything on the screen as fast as you can is not the key to success.

Quote
Have you also played Trons level 5?  Use a cheat to get there if you must... and then try to beat the mcp without the cheat on.  Even the spider stage is pretty darn hard up there.

Geez, Steve, probably.  I used to spend every spare quarter I had on these games, and TRON was one of my favorites.  I know what it's like to play these.  Higher levels in TRON require some fast shooting for VERY short periods of time (hesitate and you die).  I don't think the currently shipping "tough trigger" sticks will allow one to complete that section with such ease, if at all.  But I believe the switch assembly we offer will.  If one would like a stronger / faster return, I can think of at least one very easy mod.  Most probably won't need or care to bothered with it.

RandyT
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:19:39 pm by RandyT »

shilmover

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 533
  • Last login:September 25, 2018, 12:36:59 am
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2009, 06:17:24 pm »
xiaou2, must you keep crapping in this product announcement thread?

shilmover, looking forward to your trigger switch pics. ;D

Sorry.  Life got in the way (wife's 40th Birthday  :)).  Will try to get it running tonight...
My projects...

Finished:  Stargate (only 'cause I got it that way)
In progress:  Tron, 48-in-1 for School Auction, DKJr (currently a 60-in-1), Millipede, MAME System

FrizzleFried

  • no one listens to me anyway.
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5145
  • Last login:March 07, 2025, 10:44:09 am
    • Idaho Garagecade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2009, 07:33:03 pm »
Id say that out of the two of us..  I am a much better reference for control advice.   Considering that you seem to be on the "Casual Gamer Level".   You have little experience with these games beyond the 1st few levels... where things are pretty easy.   Which is why you didnt realize the 3 powerups in Satans Hallow which increases the fire rate 3 fold - which occurs relatively quickly in the game. 

Just to see what in heck you were talking about, I just played Satan's Hollow up to level 16.  I remain unimpressed.  It takes 3 seconds for the missiles to get to the top of the screen.....

Satan's Hollow is more about timing of your shots than laying down massive fire power.  Perhaps you should re-aquaint yourself with it?

RandyT

Agreed...

Visit my arcade blog at: www.idahogaragecade.com (Updated 10-28-21)

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #106 on: May 18, 2009, 10:48:40 pm »
On this vid,  From 1:13  to  1:16   tell me how many demons were killed in that 3 sec period...
and then tell me there is no heavy firepower being put out.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj3sED6EQqA&feature=related[/youtube]

 I will wait...

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 10:50:58 pm by Xiaou2 »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #107 on: May 18, 2009, 10:59:57 pm »

On this vid,  From 1:13  to  1:16   tell me how many demons were killed in that 3 sec period...
and then tell me there is no heavy firepower being put out.

3 seconds out of a 4 minute video.....

Neverending Project

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 851
  • Last login:April 06, 2015, 10:07:43 pm
    • Arcade Fixer
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #108 on: May 18, 2009, 11:02:45 pm »
On this vid,  From 1:13  to  1:16   tell me how many demons were killed in that 3 sec period...
I counted 6 or 7 in that 3 second period. It is difficult to watch the clock and count at the same time.

and then tell me there is no heavy firepower being put out.
There is no heavy firepower being put out.

I will wait...
Good. Maybe you can wait somewhere else, and quit bickering in a product announcement thread.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #109 on: May 18, 2009, 11:19:12 pm »
Quote
Proper use of the shield and strategic kills in exchange for bridge sections, are far more important than pulling the trigger as fast as you can.  This is one game where killing everything on the screen as fast as you can is not the key to success.

 This is only true in certain levels of the game.  The game cycles from the slow moving
and few demons... to a screen full of demons dive bombing all at once... every few stages.
 
 While in the beginning dive bombs, you can get away with use of shield to kill most of the dive bombers... that does not work so well in the upper levels where there is very little ground, and there are firebombs burning in the middle of your pathway for
5 seconds..  all the while sky raining with missiles. 

 The higher stages require you to shoot as much as possible in as little time as possible so you have a shot in H3ll to get past them.

 Losing your Double or Triple fire at certain stage points can very easily be the end
of you... and make it nearly impossible to pass.  Hence the cycle-level of difficulty.
The programming of that cycle was ingenious.


 And btw - I didnt  Crap on your micro-adapter.   I said that I and others would
prefer a true leaf solution.  More accurately, a modified leaf solution with a slightly lighter
spring.. and possible rubber/foam 'leaf-stop' mechanism to prevent over-throw.

 Personally, I feel its pretty important to recognize an arcades true controls.
Such as a Starwars yoke... which is something Nothing else can truly replace.
A person from another generation may never understand its genius, its feel, its
added control... until they have used one in their hands.   Samely, the Gear Shifter
in a sit down race drivin has No equal.  It Awesome in every way..  and feels and
operates better than any other race shifter that Ive ever felt on any arcade machine.
Leaf buttons also have their place.  And they are just as important.  And in fact, there
is a good reason why they use Leafs on pinball flipper buttons instead of Micros.
Better Feel, Less overall resistance, & Faster response Speed.

 To some LCDs are fine in an arcade cabinet.  And these same people probably
wont have an issue with Micros for games like Asteroids.  However, there are those
of us who shudder at the mere thought of an LCD in a cab... and even some who
shudder at the loss of authentic feel and superior control methods.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #110 on: May 18, 2009, 11:21:49 pm »

 6 or 7?!!!  Your out of your mind.   There is about 6 or 7 baddies killed per EACH
second.  Try actually Listening to the gun fire, as well as counting the explosions.
Also check out the fact that there are 2 full lines of baddies filling the entire screen,
with more on the way.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #111 on: May 18, 2009, 11:25:07 pm »
Quote
3 seconds out of a 4 minute video

 Actually, there are more instances of this.  I just happened to choose this point
because its an important FACT about the game.

 The game CYCLES!  Every few rounds, it drops Boatloads of enemies your way.
And in fact, this guy didnt do very well after the said point.. and so yeah, there
wasnt much beyond this.   However, that shows the difference between the
casual player.. and one who has skill, and or wants to develop it.

 
 Your seeming theory.. is that because your car wont go more than 5 laps
around the track... then there is no need to put on tires that grip the track better,
and to fill the gas tank to full capacity.    This works fine for the casual racer... but not
so well for the guy who wants to win the cup.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:30:12 pm by Xiaou2 »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #112 on: May 18, 2009, 11:33:05 pm »
And these same people probably wont have an issue with Micros for games like Asteroids.  However, there are those of us who shudder at the mere thought of an LCD in a cab... and even some who shudder at the loss of authentic feel and superior control methods.

Well, you keep shuddering uncontrollably all over my thread.  Did you email HAPP controls and whine at them for using a roller microswitch when they re-engineered this particular control, or does your deep concern only extend to public places where you can be afforded the opportunity to call attention to yourself?

Your seeming theory...

And yours is that the switch being offered won't do the job.  The plain fact is that you just don't know, because you haven't tried.   Given that as fact, which it is, what exactly is your point here?

« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:36:08 pm by RandyT »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #113 on: May 18, 2009, 11:51:30 pm »
Quote
or does your deep concern only extend to public places where you can be afforded the opportunity to call attention to yourself?

  :laugh2:    Ohh Now thats Funny!    :laugh2:     Thanks, I really needed that laugh  hehe

 Ive emailed Plenty of companies my concerns, wishes, and ideas.
I believe I may have tried Happ at one point in time, but also, no response.

 I have had some responses.. such as from Wacom.   However, no product has yet
emerged from that email...

 Ohh, I even emailed  Satan himself:   (Drum roll)    David Folely.    The response was
classic David all the way.

 But ya know, Im a nice guy.  I actually offer good suggestions rather than complain
with nothing to back it up.

 This has Nothing to do with Me.  I could care less about attention.  You are the only
one with the huge Ego round here.   You cant take even the Lightest of Criticisms
from ANYONE without getting personal.

 If anything, you should be thanking me... for keeping your thread at the top of the
front page - generating more exposure  :P   heh

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #114 on: May 19, 2009, 12:12:23 am »
You are the only one with the huge Ego round here.   You cant take even the Lightest of Criticisms from ANYONE without getting personal.

At least we now know why you are doing this, now we only need to figure out what you are doing.  Unless you can provide some other justification for injecting unrelated criticisms in here for something you have ZERO experience with, I guess it's safe to assume there was no reason.  Just someone with an axe to grind.

BTW, I'm confident you didn't complain to HAPP about this.  You didn't even know what I was referring to with that part for more than half of the thread.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 12:14:42 am by RandyT »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #115 on: May 19, 2009, 12:47:40 am »

 I stated my purpose here... in that I didnt agree with your assessment of
certain games fire rates, as well as my observations of leaf vs micros - along with
an idea for a future product.

 If this was personal, then there would be personal attacks right?   The only thing
personal Ive said was in response to your personal comment towards me.   I dont
hold grudges.  Its a waste of energy.   Still, for those who Do hold them... and Do attack
me... I will respond as expected.

Quote
BTW, I'm confident you didn't complain to HAPP about this.  You didn't even know what I was referring to with that part for more than half of the thread.

 I said that I may have emailed them in the past...  which was in regards to something else entirely.   Never once did I say that I emailed them about their change to
micros in trigger sticks.  In fact, that would be stupid now wouldnt it?!   
Logic?  Where?...


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7013
  • Last login:July 15, 2025, 12:40:35 pm
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #116 on: May 19, 2009, 12:59:36 am »
I stated my purpose here... in that I didnt agree with your assessment of certain games fire rates, as well as my observations of leaf vs micros - along with an idea for a future product.

Apparently, you don't agree with too many others in that regard either.  Your "observations" seem to find their way into any discussion where micros are brought up, even though your understanding of them appears to be incomplete.  And simply stating that X product should use a leaf switch every time something comes out with a micro in it, is not an "idea for a future product", rather an obsession.

But I'll tell you what...I happen to be in the need of a manufacturer of quality leaf switches at a reasonable price.  Nothing too fancy, just little leaf switches like those in your WICO joystick.  If you find some, you let me know and I'll be happy to build future products to use them.  But I won't hold my breath.  Leaf switches fitting that description have become nearly impossible to find, being virtually driven into obsolescence by myriad micro-switch varieties.

Show me.


Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2009, 01:21:57 am »
Quote
Apparently, you don't agree with too many others in that regard either.

 Remember, I did say that I used to be Ignorant... and that there is are a lot more
in the ignorant side than not.   However, being wrong/ignorant does not negate truth.
Masses also do not make truth.  Masses run witch hunts... and kill in the name of
their gods/fears.

Quote
simply stating that X product should use a leaf switch every time something comes out with a micro in it

 Another Exaggeration.  As expected.. sigh.    I prefer Micros for many applications...
such as fighters... where precision is paramount.   Leafs however, are better for
classics with rapidfire action.   Each has a specific reason for this, which with testing,
anyone can deduce by themselves.

 
Quote
"idea for a future product"

 Ive given my idea already, about modification of a standard leaf.  That "IS" a product
idea.  And, in fact, its a great one, which fixes the typical leaf problem of over-shoot
leading to over-bend. (until poor performance and cessation of functionality)

 
Quote
If you find some, you let me know

 I find this a little funny. 

 You see... If I did the leg work, and found the stuff myself, built it.. and started to
sell it... I would more than likely see you or andy come out with a nearly identical
product in a few weeks time... burning me broke.   

 And then the message board games would begin.  Where as products are trashed,
and reputations are falsely sullied.  I can see it now...
 

 I gave the idea freely.  If you nor andy can follow thru with it, its not my problem.

 Btw - If someone were to ask me what is easier:

1) Getting a 20+ yr old joystick shell remade

or

2) Getting some source of Leaf switches made up...


 Id have to say option 2 Should be easier.  Maybe that is my ignorance...

1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #118 on: May 19, 2009, 01:22:46 am »
I can't believe all those companies failed to act on your brilliant ideas.  :laugh2:
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 02:20:21 am by 1UP »

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...


1UP

  • Token Junkie
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2081
  • Last login:November 11, 2014, 01:37:18 am
  • Yes, that is a joystick in my pocket.
    • 1UPArcade
Re: New Product: Satan's Hollow Replacement Handles - GroovyGameGear.com
« Reply #119 on: May 19, 2009, 01:28:41 am »
.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 01:30:21 am by 1UP »

Free resource for building your own rotating control panels!

My other job...