CRT look and feel on a LCD

[retrometro]

the debate continues!

http://www.digitallounge.gatech.edu/gaming/index.html?id=2824

[DJ_Izumi]

That actually looks more like a simulated LCD effect if you ask me. o.O  And it LOOKS simulated.  Like if you asked me what that felt like I'd say 'Fake LCD'.

[genesim]

That person is obviously a compete MORON.   I can't believe he even tried.  Just stick to an original TV and throw that LCD in the trash.   What an idiot.

[genesim]

In all seriousness I can tell you right now.   If my memory is not what it ever was on an more obscure game like Turbo I can tell you 150% that this color bleed crap is BULL.

I had a TV and I saw those lines like on the Grand Prix(I believe that is the game) and others like Air Sea Battle going in the sky.

That display that is "fixed" for CRT is 200% WRONG.   This exhibits my point exactly.

If the coders could make a color transcend into the the sky like that pink color they would have.   Why would a crappy television make it better?

I played Atari 2600 on nothing but crappy televisions and I saw those lines originally...absolutely!   Someone like so many others are trying to change history with their pretty pictures.

[genesim]

You know what really galls me...NTSC televisions were capable of much much better and this is the total lie in full bloom.   Let me get this straight...you can show people like in a movie but those blocks have so much color bleed that you don't see the lines???

Get the hell outta here.   A religion plain and simple.

[CheffoJeffo]

Get the hell outta here. 

I'm pretty sure the feeling is mutual.

[genesim]

Why because I am speaking the truth! 

This is exactly what I mean.   This is a bald faced LIE.  The original Atari 2600 on the TV's had those lines.   Are you going to be so blind as to say this isn't true?

Also what is clever but also a bald faced lie is the screenshot.   The ghosts "ghosting" are there on the Stella emulator through the LCD.

If you weren't so busy putting me down you would actually see my point.

This whole pitiful arguement about CRT's being better in this particular capacity has got to be the biggest lie on the internet.

Maybe the only way to settle this is for me to go out and take tons of pictures.   Compare it myself.   I already have with the local place that has Pacman and I compared the differences which do not exist at all.   Most of this is starting to look like the complete lie that it is.

But rest assured, for a fact the Atari 2600 and the "blending" does not exist.   Bud I was there playing with crappy tv's going through crappy ATANNAE connections!   Not RF as the author puts it.    You needed a converter box for the original old TV's.   Remember switching back and forth?

Probably not because you more then likely were not there at the time and you try to speak about knowing so much, but in reality you know far less then me.   Of course if I don't dot an "I" it somehow proves I know NOTHING....    That is why you want me to go away.   You want to keep your fantasy alive and well.

Sell it to someone else, I have exposed this for what it is.  One of the biggest lie's on the internet.  If I ever met these programmers I would grill them on this very subject.   Guess what, in all likelyhood they would agree with me.   They probably laugh at all this splitting hairs crap.   Even your link was funny.   Notice this notice that.       

Oh and for the record refresh rate can be the same as frame rate if programmed correctly.   Hence 24fps on a movie being perfect for 120hz becaust it is an even devisor....same as 15hz signal into 120hz.   It is still a 1:1 scale up...so if the programmers worked with that as the way they intended it to be displayed, then the same could be true for a even divisor scale up.   

Of course many like to overlook this verifiable fact.    The only problem is round pixels vs square...and even that is proved not to be a problem.   Read the Atari article...even the supposed way the programmers wanted it done support my case...but guess what, that is a load of bull too because they programmed because of limitations.   Not purposeful visions.    That crap still cracks me up to where I almost split my side.

This house is clean.

[genesim]

Not RF as the author puts it.

OOOPS I MADE A MISTAKE.   I RECOGNIZED THIS SO DON'T COOK ME CHEFFO.

I was thinking of the RF connection as opposed to the VHF signal.   MY BAD!!!

GET THIS AGAIN, I MADE A MISTAKE SO NO NEED TO POINT IT OUT.

[genesim]

[CheffoJeffo]

Probably not because you more then likely were not there at the time and you try to speak about knowing so much, but in reality you know far less then me.   Of course if I don't dot an "I" it somehow proves I know NOTHING.... Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!   That is why you want me to go away.   You want to keep your fantasy alive and well.

...

Oh and for the record refresh rate can be the same as frame rate if programmed correctly.   Hence 24fps on a movie being perfect for 120hz becaust it is an even devisor....same as 15hz signal into 120hz.   It is still a 1:1 scale up...so if the programmers worked with that as the way they intended it to be displayed, then the same could be true for a even divisor scale up.   

Once again, you choose the route of the Belligerent Kool Aid Man (I will be eternally grateful to Chad for coining that name for you because it fits so well ... only wish that I had come up with it so I could tag it with a tm).

It isn't so much that you don't dot an i or cross a t ... it is that you genuinely don't understand the fundamentals of the technologies that you are talking about.

For example, once again, you refer to 15hz (sic) as a refresh rate (getting the terminology, meaning and the cardinality of the metric completely wrong). It is the same as your mythical "light beams inside the CRT".

They don't exist anywhere but inside your head.

As a result, the conclusions that are so painfully obvious to you, which make the rest of us appear stupid in your eyes, are based on fallacy.

Most arcade games refresh at 60Hz with standard res games running a 15KHz scan rate. You continue to confuse the two, despite my having slapped you down about it several times.

Learn the math that underlies the relationship between the horizontal scan rate, resolution and vertical refresh rate -- it's a simple multiplicative relation, so you should be able to handle the concepts ... well, maybe not ...

Probably not because you more then likely were not there at the time and you try to speak about knowing so much, but in reality you know far less then me.

That is probably the first time that I have ever been accused of not being old enough ... I'm not sure whether to be pleased or insulted.

One of us has worked on both authentic arcade equipment and modern PC equipment.

And everybody knows that it ain't you.

[Blanka]

Atari 2600 had a resolution of 160x82 pixels. Each line was drawn 4 times on alternate interlace fields and 160 pixels on a "640 pixel wide NTSC image" (it was an analog signal, so no real "horizontal resolution on the TV itself), meant that each pixel of the 2600 was 4x4 "pixels" on the TV. That was blocky all the way, and this "true image" emulation of Atari 2600 sure is nonsense.

[Hoopz]

Once again, you choose the route of the Belligerent Kool Aid Man (I will be eternally grateful to Chad for coining that name for you because it fits so well ... only wish that I had come up with it so I could tag it with a tm).

Like you haven't tried to TM the whole internet already!   

And the 2600 sucked ass then and still does.  Intellivision is and was the best.  Suck it Atari!   

[genesim]

Actually contrary to what you have said I am comparing VERTICAL REFRESH RATE.  

Hence your example 60HZ VERTICAL REFRESH RATE also being an even divisor.

I admitted the LIGHT BEAM instead of Particle how many times are you going to beat that dead horse?  It was a frickin' typo.

Now if you are going to avoid it, how about breaking it down.   Were you or were you not growing up during the Atari 2600 days?   Did you have one as they came out, or were you a johnny come lately that thinks he knows?

As for my 15 KILOHZ error, then I was correct the first time.  Why did you not point out how I had the KILO part right?    The point was not to make fun of me because there was no such thing as a 15hz display...or at least if there is, then it is rare(I don't know this), but to actually understand my point.   60hz is an even devisor hence it being a qualifier for this subject.    Wow, way to make my case even better.   REFRESH...RESCAN...it doesn't matter.  Both of them are the same thing.   The screen is being redrawn 60 times or 120.   If there was a 15hz display then it would be 15 times!   Again, you were so busy saying ha ha ha and trying to skate around and saying...he thinks that 15hz is the way its drawn..but in fact I wasn't wrong about the REFRESH rate, I was just wrong about there being that display or the one that 15 KILO hz was referring to.   That is being a punk.  That is not clever.

One of us has worked on both authentic arcade equipment and modern PC equipment.

And everybody knows that it ain't you.

SO WHAT.   That doesn't mean I don't get a concept.    I have always been quoting what I thought to be vertical refresh rate.   You were just acting like too much of a tool to acknowledge my point because of the non dotted "I's"

Now can you at least aknowledge my point now?   I know what I saw, and I know the hardware that I used.   Instead of being as you usually are, how about adressing my factual information.    

xxxxxxxxx

That was blocky all the way, and this "true image" emulation of Atari 2600 sure is nonsense.

WORD!   As I suspect alot of this is.   Not ALL, but alot of the arcade coders myth.   They encoded it CHEAP, FAST, and EFFICIENT.   They did not program for future displays nor did they MOST of the time program for bleed or flicker or any other such nonsense.  

Frogger is exactly how it should be and it loses NOTHING on a properly scaled LCD.   Matter of fact on the right LCD, it actually improves because of the clearer picture with no reflection.   End of story.

[genesim]

The real question is whether the real Koolaid man will finally admit that alot of this is indeed a LIE.

Hoofprints think horses not zebras.   If it is wrong for Atari then it is wrong for many arcade games that came out around that time.

Later of course things change, and for a scant few where displays were unique, of course there could be SOME programming...but some of this is complete bull and I don't believe it for a second.

Texture always gives a 3D look.  Scanlines provided this.   But some of this looking for the Davinci Code is just plain nutty.

[CheffoJeffo]

Instead of being as you usually are, how about adressing my factual information.    

I think all of us agree that we're still waiting for some ...

[genesim]

Look at the KOOLAID MAN now.

I knew it.  You act like such a coward.

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"

Answer the question bud.   Were you or were you not there when Atari 2600's were going strong?   Did you buy one at that time and play it? 

Hmmm...I will try again.

Little Koolaid Man seems to dodge lots of questions.   

[CheffoJeffo]

I knew it.  You act like such a coward.

"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"

As I recall, that didn't work out so well for the last blowhard who said it ...

[genesim]

Really?   I seem to remember him winning an academy award later.   He is a legend in cinema.   

You perhaps are about as uninformed as you are with the current religion.

The name is Jack Nicholson...learn it, love it, respect it.   

[Hoopz]

Really?   I seem to remember him winning an academy award later.   He is a legend in cinema.  

You perhaps are about as uninformed as you are with the current religion.

The name is Jack Nicholson...learn it, love it, respect it.  

You truly are clueless, aren't you?  At least you typed uninformed correctly this time instead of picking on those in uniforms again. 

[genesim]

Yeah, I am not a great typist...but at least I know Jack.   Koolaid man seems to think he is some kind of failure.

Of course you may be just as clueless if you didn't notice the slapdown just like that.

[Hoopz]

CheffoJeffo's point is that the CHARACTER that said those lines ended up being court martialled.  He was not talking about the actor.   

Edit for typo

[genesim]

OH REALLY!!!   

OH MAN I DIDN'T GET THAT.       Gee I am so glad you pointed that out.    Next time I will PM you first so you can hit me with the completely obvious stick.

But getting back, so he is cutting me down with the fates of fantasy characters.   Oh my...now I see...he is being carted off to fantasy jail.    Oh what am I in for next, a fantasy electric chair?   Maybe I might go to fantasy hell!   is it the kind on South Park where Landon and Sadaam are?   

"Its Christmas time...

It was a quote in a movie.  Get over it.   There was nothing clever about the first put down.   Why, because there is nothing going to happen to me because I can handle the truth.   Obviously Cheffo cannot give me that much.    Hence him saying I have no factual information.   There.....I broke it down to two year old explanation.    I figured since you gave me that much...I could smack it back to you.    One of us got it the first time...

[CheffoJeffo]

Answer the question bud.   Were you or were you not there when Atari 2600's were going strong?   Did you buy one at that time and play it? 

I will state what should be perfectly obvious from the custom title bestowed upon my by our supreme chancellor -- I was there before, during and after the success of the 2600.

Hell, I even owned an original Pong home console.

But, of course, Hoopz is right -- Mrs. Cheffo's Intellivision is the one console from the era that I still keep running today.

I have spoken to some of the developers that you would deign to question furiously about their graphic designs. I have read some of the design docs and seen their sketches. At least one person who "was there" in arcade development in the heyday posts actively over at KLOV, but he's probably wrong as well.

None of this is new ... you just seem to refuse to either search through the information that is out there or to believe the information once you find it.

As I have always said, if you like the way games display on your cabinet, then you don't have a problem.

That is why you'll never see me tell Blanka that he is a moron for liking the LCD on his MAME cab. He is happy and, while I think that he is sometimes overexuberant with his opinion, he always backs what he says with *actual* facts. Same applies to folks like Knievel and others who regularly use LCDs.

[Hoopz]

But, of course, Hoopz is right --

QFT

[XeviouS]

       

[genesim]

Oh so what I said about the Atari isn't fact?   Oh you didn't call me a moron for preferring LCD and thinking it looks better?

I don't deserve to EVER be called a MORON.  The fact that you think you are EVER justified is what is very very wrong with you and anyone who supports such behavior.

The difference between you and I is that I never claimed my name calling was right.  

I have never stated the coders are wrong, and I want the facts that they did program for this.   Specifically for Donkey Kong...Pacman...Galaga....Dig Dug...or any other such madness.    I don't believe it for one second.   But hey, I am open to proof and not...this guy posts.  

[CheffoJeffo]

How the ---fudgesicle--- did a simple, humourous reply to a overly-capitalized-yelling-because-nobody-likes-me and poorly-contextually-positioned movie quote warrant 5 follow-up posts ?

Cheffo genesim

Lighten up, Francis!

[genesim]

Uh because you attempted a very bad comeback...and then of course Hoopz attempted a very bad explanation...and then I succeeded in making both of you look pathetic.   

Of course your problem was this.   I had seeds in FACTS because of my post about the Atari screen being flawed...you followed around trying to get me for not crossing t's and Hoopz tries to get me with spelling.

Of course both are symantacs(sp) and not worth it when you get to the meat of what I have always written.   It is splitting hairs...on splitting hairs...on splitting hairs in its origins(being the code).   

Arguing over which hairs should be split is so silly that the over the top way that you say you are supreme over me is just flawed...because the premise is a guess to begin with!


And what happened to the fictional character...yuck yuck..that was a good un! 

[CheffoJeffo]

Oh you didn't call me a moron for preferring LCD and thinking it looks better?

No, I called you a moron because you kept saying stupidly incorrect things and telling everybody who disagreed that they were wrong.

I don't deserve to EVER be called a MORON.

I acknowledge that and have, as a result, been trying to use Belligerent Kool Aid Man instead.  

The fact that you think you are EVER justified is what is very very wrong with you

And here I thought it was that I was a Crybaby turd tosser egotistical self righteous miserable coward stink hole ... I am so confused.  

The difference between you and I is that I never claimed my name calling was right.

Actually, you denied your name calling completely. 

[ChadTower]

Once again, you choose the route of the Belligerent Kool Aid Man (I will be eternally grateful to Chad for coining that name for you because it fits so well ... only wish that I had come up with it so I could tag it with a tm).

 

The 2600 is a terrible example for this debate, guys.  It's the only one that doesn't actually have the refresh rate handled in hardware like everything else on the planet.  It was done in software making it a unique beast.  Having done a good amoung of 2600 coding has given me a healthy fear of the sync routines necessary to keep it drawing in sync with the TV's scan guns.

No, I haven't read the whole thread, as most of it is fighting... but I did see that pic and the 2600 DID look blurry on many TVs.  That wasn't a function of the 2600 itself, thogh, that was a function of crappy TV/GAME switchboxes that heavily degraded the signal.  Those got old FAST and had a heavy effect on graphics quality.  The simple switch to a female RCA->coax video adapter does wonders towards cleaning up what a lot of people remember as "color bleed" on the 2600.

[Malenko]

Oh so what I said about the Atari isn't fact?   Oh you didn't call me a moron for preferring LCD and thinking it looks better?

I don't deserve to EVER be called a MORON.  The fact that you think you are EVER justified is what is very very wrong with you and anyone who supports such behavior.

The difference between you and I is that I never claimed my name calling was right.  

I have never stated the coders are wrong, and I want the facts that they did program for this.   Specifically for Donkey Kong...Pacman...Galaga....Dig Dug...or any other such madness.    I don't believe it for one second.   But hey, I am open to proof and not...this guy posts.  

posted like a true moron.

Seriously, you still cannot grasp the concept of the EDIT BUTTON and continue to double and triple post. How can we take you seriously when you cant even edit a post?

[ChadTower]

Hasn't his edit function been revoked by saint?

[genesim]

Cheffo,

Uh, no I said it wasn't my style to call names.    I never denied uttering a name call.   Shall I get out the quote book and smack you silly?   You either don't read or don't comprehend.
 
I don't merely say people are wrong, I try to show how I have came to my conclusions.   Calling "everyone" wrong is as stupid as your assessment that I hate all CRT's.  

And here I thought it was that I was a Crybaby turd tosser egotistical self righteous miserable coward stink hole

Wah wah wah wah wah.   There I translated your post for others to enjoy.

been trying to use Belligerent Kool Aid Man instead.

Hmmm and people are supposed to get this how?   Shouldn't you have a black pot as your avatar instead?

Malenko,

I CANNOT EDIT.   I only have MODIFY and that is only available after a short interval.   GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD.   No wait let me try it again.   I DO NOT HAVE EDIT.    One more time....I DO NOT HAVE EDIT.   You got it now?  

Oh wait...is this you Pot?

XXXXX

Chad Tower,

Uh no.   Those lines existed on the original display and they didn't "blend" and they weren't programmed for.   Its all just plain fantasy and that blog was a waste of good bandwidth.   Not to mention it was an outright lie in regards to Stella emulator on whatever display.

....update.

Hasn't his edit function been revoked by saint?

At least you got it the first couple of times I said it.   Maybe your echo will bounce through Malenko's skull.   Here's to hope!

[CheffoJeffo]

Shall I get out the quote book and smack you silly?  

No need, I specifically asked for the last PHd thread to be brought back, specifically because I think that the readers can choose for themselves which of the two of us is more credible.

saint may well have been bringing it back of his own accord, but I did ask.

When I'm wrong I admit to being wrong

When I'm an excessive ---uvula--- I admit to being an excessive ---uvula---.

I'm not afraid of my post history.

And besides, we can all agree that I'm silly anough as I am!

 

[Malenko]

I didnt follow the drama that close, sorry, I was wrong. And the other thread was put in post hell before I got to see it.
I admitted I was wrong, can you?

instead of an Edit maybe could then maybe, come to a complete thought before posting, also....

I had a TV and I saw those lines like on the Grand Prix(I believe that is the game) and others like Air Sea Battle going in the sky.

you could read the caption that says the game is Enduro.

[severdhed]

such hostility....

why does everyone Hate LCDs so much?  my cabinet has an LCD monitor and it looks great.....is that the problem?  do you guys want your games to look blurry and crappy?  why would anyone try to emulate the look of a CRT on an LCD? that just makes no sense...and whatever that guy was doing doesn't look like any CRT monitor that i have seen.

the LCD monitors have such a nice clean picture to them...why anyone would want anything less than that makes no sense to me.

[ChadTower]

Chad Tower,

Uh no.   Those lines existed on the original display and they didn't "blend" and they weren't programmed for.  

You didn't seem to notice that is pretty much what I said... yet on the original display they were present because of poor transmission lines from the 2600 to the TV.  The blending did exist on a lot of old TVs running 2600s as a function of crappy switchboxes.  It wasn't intended, it wasn't on all of them, but any 2600 running with a crappy TV/GAME switchbox had a blurry picture as described above.  You have to separate the display from the console here because they are separate devices not built as part of an enclosed system.

What we end up with here is that both are right to a degree - there was no color blend or blur in the software or as drawn by the hardware.  On the other hand a lot of TVs were displaying a degraded signal that was blurry.  Both happened.


EDIT:  fixed my bbcode

[CheffoJeffo]

why does everyone Hate LCDs so much?  my cabinet has an LCD monitor and it looks great.....is that the problem?  do you guys want your games to look blurry and crappy?  why would anyone try to emulate the look of a CRT on an LCD? that just makes no sense...and whatever that guy was doing doesn't look like any CRT monitor that i have seen.

Don't mistake the reaction to genesim for a reaction to LCDs -- at least one of the people who has reacted most strongly to genesim is planning to use an LCD in their MAME cab.

For me, I strongly prefer arcade CRTs in my MAME boxes. Partly because that is what I use in all of my original cabinets and they should all look the same. Partly because it is part of a more authentic experience for me.

We have already seen that LCDs don't look like CRTs. Some people can't stand how the games look on LCDs. Some people don't care. Some people can't stand CRTs.

If you are happy with the way that things look on your LCD, then I think that is great. 

[Ginsu Victim]

Boy am I glad I'm avoiding this place today.

[Hoopz]

Boy am I glad I'm avoiding this place today.

You killed the last thread. We were just wondering if it would make it through today.  You're just like Oliver in the Brady Bunch...a jinx!