Which video card for 27" TV, Component input to get 640x432??

[blakemcginnis]

I've got a RCA 27" CRT Non-HDTV w/ component inputs, trying to get 640x432 and I'm about to pull my hair out.

I have tried both an 8600gt and 6600gt, with the nvidia mini-din to component dongle.  I have tried 5 or 6 archive versions of nvidia forceware drivers, powerstrip, rivatuner, etc. and can't get 640x432 on the TV.  I've also searched these forums till I fall asleep at the keyboard, and can't seem to find anything addressing these particular cards/situation.

The closest I got was using an older nvidia driver (158.xx or so), added the custom res in rivatuner and 640x432 showed up as an option when I right-clicked the nvidia tray icon and went to resolutions (along with a bunch of other super low resolutions) ...but... that was on a computer monitor, and the monitor wouldn't accept the resolutions, it just went black.  No problem, I thought, when I get home I'll hook the TV up (which is what I'm shooting for anyway) and surely it will work with 640x432 now...wrong.  The low resolutions disappeared once the TV was recognized by nvidia and set up.  From there I tried tons of different drivers, powerstrip, rivatuner, etc and couldn't get anything other than 640x480, in other words, no custom resolutions.  Rivatuner would act like it would accept the custom resolution and tell me to restart, but then the resolution would never show up as an option once I rebooted.  Nvidia's custom resolution option just fails ('test failed') and powerstrip acts similar to rivatuner.  Is this just a problem with these nvidia cards and the hdtv dongle?

I'm getting frustrated with NVIDIA and am eyeing an ATI x1600 on ebay (supposed to be comparable to a 6600gt) that has a component dongle - has anyone out there tried this particular card and got 640x432 on a TV via component?  I'd like to figure out if the video card is the problem, or if it's the TV, or if I'm just not doing something right - before I go and buy a new card.

Also, the only reason I'm looking at these 'newer' video cards is for when SFIV comes out on PC, I'd like to be able to play that as well.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[BASS!]

I see you have tried a bunch of stuff, but have you looked into soft15khz? Using on of sailors modelines you may be able to output the right resolution out of your vga slot. I had a 6600gt that I was using with it, and you can get 640x480 and 640x240, I don't see why 640x432 wouldn't work. You would of course need to wire a custom vga to component cord though. Someone with more knowledge about sync and component pinouts could probably tell you how to wire your cable. If no one does I guess I could spend some time on wikipedia or the like for a diagram.

You may also want to head over to http://www.omegadrivers.net/ for a custom driver for your video card. I have used their stuff in the past to do all sorts of funky stuff with diy projectors, and I am pretty sure that they may have something good for your 6600. I really don't recomend the 8600 for custom resolution stuff as the 8 series cards have some issues with low resolutions.

[MonMotha]

The "custom res" control panel in the nvidia control panel seems to just flatly deny anything that results in a horizontal scanrate below 30kHz, probably on the grounds that almost no PC monitor can display them, and they will usually (unless interlaced) have a resolution so low that Windows is unusable on them.  However, the hardware is fully capable of doing it.  What soft15khz is dump a bunch of entries into that control panel directly, bypassing the interface (it just stores everything in the giant blob that is the Windows registry anyway) and convinces Windows to use them.  That's why it has dependencies on driver versions.

You can do the same thing on Linux with a "modeline" in xorg.conf/XF86Config in a driver agnostic manner.  There's of course much less hand-holding on those, so it'll pretty much let you output anything the video hardware is capable of.

Once you've got the proper timed modes coming out of the card, you have to address the fact that they're in the wrong colorspace.  PC monitors all run RGB (as to arcade monitors), but US TV "component" inputs are YPbPr.  The signals are compatible: if you turn on sync on green and hook RGB up to a YPbPr input, you'll get an intelligible picture with some color, but everything will appear very green.  I've seen some software hacks to turn everything into YPbPr before outputting it, but I've not used them, and I've only seen them for X11 (Linux/UNIX).

The "HDTV output" found on some nvidia cards is much like the old TV outputs.  It tends to run everything through a giant pixel masher in order to turn anything into an "HDTV compatible" mode.  Sometimes you can convince them to pass display that is already "HDTV compatible" straight through without alteration (other than colorspace conversion), but often you can't.

Basically, this all amounts to you fighting software and hardware that's designed to make things "easy" for people who want to do something rather different than what you want to do.  That tends to make your job "hard".  My preferred solution at this point is to just grab an RGB to S-Video converter and output native RGB then dump it into a TV.  There are also RGB to YPbPr converters if you prefer to go that route, though they often cost more (despite having to do less).

As far as the ATI component dongles, some say they work great, but others say they don't work at all.  Seems to be an all-or-nothing scenario.

Oh, and remember that if your TV is an SDTV (not EDTV), you'll have to do 640x432 INTERLACED.  Progressive won't work.

[TOK]

Its been a long time since I did my component setup, but at the time I was researching, none of the Nvidia cards handled custom resolutions right.

I used an ATI Radeon 9550, which is probably 3 or 4 generations old now, and probably only available in AGP.
This card didn't even need Powerstrip or anything. Using MaLa's custom resolution setting, I put in 640x432 and it worked without a problem. The Windows boot screens are out of synch, and the desktop is overscanned but as soon as MaLa fires up, everything is perfect.

[blakemcginnis]

Thanks for all the advice so far, I've got some new stuff to try - omega drivers, soft15k, and maybe an ATI card.

I would just grab an old card, like the Radeon 9550, but the new motherboard i got for this project only has pci-e slots, plus I want to be able to play a few more vid-card heavy games (SFIV) on this cabinet.  I know the x1600 card I am looking at has a mini-din (7pin s-video) to component dongle, but I would hate to shell out another $30 or so and run into the same problem.  But from what I'm reading, a lot of problem seems to be the Nvidia drivers/control panel limitations - and although I've had no luck with rivatuner or powerstrip, maybe the omega drivers or soft15khz will work - and if not, I'll probably try the ATI card.

[Zebidee]

The ATI dongle only works with supporting ATI cards.  That includes the ATI 9250 and 9550, and a bunch of others.  There is a list on the ATI website somewhere.

What can also be confusing is that the dongle has dip-switches and they need to be set right, as well as everything else.

ATI 9250 or 9550 or 9600 work with the older Catalyst 6.5 drivers & soft15khz. These cards work well with Powerstrip too.ATI9550 chipset is available on PCI-e video cards. Try cruising around the Soft15khz thread a bit, and check out the list of compatible/tested cards (below). Even if you don't use Soft15khz, it is a good guide to which cards are going to be better for 15khz:

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?t=7925

[blakemcginnis]

Thanks for the link, I saw the 6600gt (agp) listed as working, so does that mean that, using the nvidia component dongle, I should be able to get 640x432 with soft15khz?  If so, I will try it tonight. 

I'm not familiar with soft15khz, I've never used it, and to be honest, I'm not really sure what it does - how does the lower refresh rate (15hz) make the games (mame, nulldc, nes, etc) look better?  I realize that 15hz is the refresh rate that the arcades originally ran on, and so it's more accurate, but what improvements would I notice visibly on my tv?

thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

[Zebidee]

Nvidia component dongle?

You should read the pinned thread on Soft15khz.

... how does the lower refresh rate (15hz) make the games (mame, nulldc, nes, etc) look better?  I realize that 15hz is the refresh rate that the arcades originally ran on, and so it's more accurate, but what improvements would I notice visibly on my tv?

Search these forums for detailed answers (just browse the posts here), as these questions come up all the time. It is more than just refresh rate - These games were designed for certain 15khz resolutions on CRT screens, and they simply look better at their original resolutions.

[blakemcginnis]

OK, I will try to read the thread on soft15k when I get time.

Nvidia component dongle =



Update: Installed omega drivers, quickres, and soft15k.  Omega drivers made the desktop and text look fantastic, much better than before - made the tv look like a computer monitor.  Unfortunately, I've still not been able to create the 640x432 resolution with the control panel in omega drivers, powerstrip, rivatuner, soft15k, etc.  although I still don't know enough about soft15k to even know what it did.

[TOK]

Are you using a front end, or just trying to get your desktop to 640x432?
As a test, I'd suggest trying MaLa and putting that resolution in the custom resolution section. This works for me, even though I don't have that option from the Windows display options. That way you'll at least know if your card will do it.

Just as an example, here are 2 pics from when I was doing my vert cab. They're old and crappy, but one shows the desktop at 640x480 and subsequent overscan cutoff, one shows MaLa at 640x432. I did this buy letting MaLa handle the resolution, not Soft 15k or anything.

Some people have also done tweaks from the service menu of their televisions (remember your default settings if you go this route, you can really screw your TV up).

[blakemcginnis]

I may download MALA and give it a shot just to see.  I'm using Hyperspin and really like it - but I'm pretty sure it's resolutions are limited by the ones listed by windows/nvida.
 
I did notice that soft15khz dumped a bunch of custom resolutions in nvidia's control panel - but when I tried to edit one to get 640x432 interlaced - no dice, "test failed".  I'm thinking it's just an nvidia+component problem - I may go ahead and try to get an ATI card.

640x480 looks great, text is readable, images are beautiful - it's just overscanned badly.

[BASS!]

If you go to the tv section for your omega drivers there is an overscan / tv position menu. I used the heck out of this previously. What is the exact model of your tv though then I could get you started with being able to tune your overscan on your tv.

[blakemcginnis]

Yeah, I tried to adjust with those TV size/positioning options.  The positioning will move the screen around but the sizing doesn't change anything - I click minus and the screen flashes but the screen size remains the same.

Here is the model of the TV:

RCA
F27443

Thanks

[Ummon]

If you're also wanting capacity for higher-end games, particularly PC-type, I suggest not using a TV. Then it'll be plug and play.

[blakemcginnis]

I appreciate the suggestion, but it's a done deal - the cabinet is already built around the 27" TV and it looks very good (minus the overscan).  I understand computers weren't meant to natively interface with TVs, so it's more difficult than just using a monitor, and I know a crt TV is not optimal for newer PC games like Street Fighter IV and Guitar Hero, but those games are really an afterthought - the cabinet is primarily for arcade games and 80s-90s console games.

Again, thanks for the suggestions so far.

[blakemcginnis]

I figured out how to get in to the service menu of my tv and was able to adjust the vertical size and shrink it down a bit, at 640x480 it's still overscanned at, but not quite as bad...however...I wasn't able to find the adjustment for the horizontal size in the service menu, the only thing I was able to find was horizontal position.  I figured H. Size would be right next to H. position, like the vertical size adjustment, but it was not.  At this point, I'm not sure what to do, but I'm leaning towards trying an ATI x1600 or x1650 to see if I can do a custom resolution over component with them...

[Ummon]

With the ati catalyst suite, or nvidia equivalent, there is the option to adjust the geometry in software, even for TV output.

[blakemcginnis]

Yeah, I tried the TV adjustments in Nvidia's control panel.  The positioning works, but the size adjustment does not respond.

[Ummon]

Mm-mmm. Worked on mine so I guess you're hosed....at least with that card, perhaps.

[blakemcginnis]

Well, here's the update:

Got the ATI x1650 card in, with mini-din to component dongle.  I first tried the omega drivers and then the catalyst drivers, both seemed to be about the same, with a few more features in the catalyst suite.  I can get any resolution I want, 640x432 or lower, and I can adjust overscan/underscan no problem....but now there's a new problem.  I believe you might call it Flicker, Jitter, Shimmer, etc.  Whatever it is, it is unbelieveably annoying and hard on the eyes.  It's like everything is constantly vibrating very slightly, defocusing things - especially text or anything high contrast against a white background.  I switched over to S-video and it went away.  I noticed when I switched to S-video, there was a few new settings in catalyst - one was 'Flicker adjustment' - it was set to the maximum (thats what was recommended).  I switched it to the minimum and BAM - that's what it looked like with the component connection - so apparently ATI calls the problem I'm having - "flicker". 

I love the look of the component over s-video - it's more vibrant and slightly more detail - but I can't use it like this.  Does anyone know of any suggestions to get rid of this flicker / shimmer / jitter / whatever ?  It would be nice if there was a flicker setting in Catalyst for component like there was for s-video, but alas, there is not. 

Again, I appreciate any suggestions.

[Ummon]

The method for component has generally been VGA to component, I think as mentioned above. That seems the ticket. Get the dongle here cheap (well, not as cheap as it used to be - a couple dollars more now, I think) :

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041901&p_id=2398&seq=1&format=2

[blakemcginnis]

Sounds like a good idea, but this worries me:

"Note: This adapter only work with the following ATI Video Cards.
Compatible video cards include: ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 8500, 8500DV, RADEON
9500, 9550, 9600, 9700 & 9800 series of video cards."

I have a x1650 card - does anyone know if these dvi to component/vga to component adapters will work with this card?

[BASS!]

I searched through a couple distributors and found one that looks identical with this compatibility list.

Now you can view your computer video output on a High Definition Television (HDTV), projector or other video displays with component video inputs. Now you can enjoy your movies, games or other video presentations on a big screen. Simply connect the adapter to a PC video port to convert DVI female to red, green and blue component RCA females.

Works with ATI's ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 8500, 8500DV, RADEON 9500, 9550, 9600, 9700, 9800, X1300, X1600, X1650 & X1950 series of video cards.

If you don't have a compatible ATI video adapter inside your computer, we offer it here: PC to HDTV Video Adapter (AGP Type Slot) or PC to HDTV Video Adapter (PCI-Express Type Slot) (both sold separately).

[blakemcginnis]

cool, thanks for the searching!  So do you think this dvi-to-component adapter will get rid of the flicker?  I read through a bunch of posts the other day on 'flicker' and a lot of people were saying it was from the interlaced signal - so will using this adapter change anything?

[BASS!]

No, screen flicker has to do with the resolution. You may be able to turn on a flicker filter in your driver, but I have no idea.

[blakemcginnis]

lol, I feel like I'm going in circles here.

And, nope, there's no flicker adjustment in the catalyst control center for component - only when hooked up via s-video.

Let me try this again.

Anyone out there have first-hand experience of hooking up a crt tv via component using an x1650 (or similiar recent ati card) that were able to get rid of screen flicker?

I'm starting to think this isn't possible.  I'm using S-video for now.

I'll give this a few more days and unless there's some new eye-opening revelations - I'll give future readers of this thread a conclusive answer on how to use component connections between a PC and a non-hd TV  -  Don't.

[Ummon]

Ahem. You're not understanding what he said. Look up (especially through the monitor wiki) interlace and progressive video.

[blakemcginnis]

I understand interlace and progressive.  That's why I said I had read that it was a problem with interlaced video and asked if the adapter (that you suggested) would fix anything - and uprightbass360 said "no".

So...I'm still lost as to what, if anything, can be done about the flicker problem with component.

[Ummon]

I suggest re-reading TOK's post above.

[blakemcginnis]

I re-read his posts, and while they were very helpful in my decision to get an ATI card (which fixed the custom resolution and overscan problem) - they don't address the flickering problem I am currently seeking a solution to...unless I'm missing something.

Perhaps I should start a new thread, since the original object has been accomplished - only to be replaced by another obstacle

So, in summation, for anyone reading this thread in the future - Nvidia 6600gt & 8600gt (and possible others) = bad for custom low resolutions & overscan adjustment.  ATI allows for custom low resolutions and overscan adjustment via component.  But bear in mind you may have flickering issues with component, which for me blew the whole deal - I'm using S-Video right now, and not sure there is a workable solution for component.

[BASS!]

Because I am too lazy to paraphrase here is what someone posted on wikipedia. Couldn't have said it better myself.

The 640×400i resolution (720x480i with borders disabled) was first introduced by home computers such as the Commodore Amiga and (later) Atari Falcon. These computers used interlace to boost the maximum vertical resolution. These modes were only suited to graphics or gaming, as the flickering interlace made reading text in word processor, database, or spreadsheet software difficult. (Modern game consoles solve this problem by pre-filtering the 480i video to a lower resolution. For example Final Fantasy XII suffers from flicker when the filter is turned off, but stabilizes once filtering is restored. The computers of the 1980s lacked sufficient power to run similar filtering software.)

I've run many displays at this resolution, and had great results, but they do vary. Some displays, even model to model handle interlaced video differently. I ran a mitsubishi multisync that ran great at 640x240, but when you pump it up to x480 to view your desktop, you do have to bear with some flicker. I have been to the arcade before and noticed it on ferrari f355 simulator, but heck that is how it is.

It has been said before, the reason that your having issues, is you are trying to do something that the manufacturer did not design their product for.

Now all that aside, have you tried any other resolutions or games, other than staring at the windows desktop? If you have what have you run. Will your monitor take any modes other than 640x480? Also, have you tried adjusting the color/ brightness / sharpness to detune your monitor a tiny bit? You may be able to un focus the display ever so slightly to make the refresh a little bit less blaring?

One other thing you may want to try is the use of a line conditioner, as some of the flicker may be present because of dirty power.

[M3d10n]

I re-read his posts, and while they were very helpful in my decision to get an ATI card (which fixed the custom resolution and overscan problem) - they don't address the flickering problem I am currently seeking a solution to...unless I'm missing something.

Perhaps I should start a new thread, since the original object has been accomplished - only to be replaced by another obstacle

So, in summation, for anyone reading this thread in the future - Nvidia 6600gt & 8600gt (and possible others) = bad for custom low resolutions & overscan adjustment.  ATI allows for custom low resolutions and overscan adjustment via component.  But bear in mind you may have flickering issues with component, which for me blew the whole deal - I'm using S-Video right now, and not sure there is a workable solution for component.

I'm pretty much in the same situation: ATI card, CRT TV, component inputs, no progressive scan. But I found a workaround for the flickering issue. You'll need to to these steps on the first time:

- Open the Catalyst Control Center;
- Make sure you enable "Force TV detect" and "Force Component Video detection" under "Display Options" (this will make sure TV-out and Component-out is always enabled, regardless of connection status);
- Go to "Displays Manager";
- Look in the "Desktop and Display Setup" area;
- If not already, connect your PC to your TV using component and enable the component-out;
- You should see a CRT-like TV icon on the "Attached displays currently disabled" area. This is the Composite/S-video out.
- Drag and drop the CRT TV icon to the LCD TV icon on the "Clone"/"Desktop 2" area. A small menu should open, click on "Swap devices";
- The image in your TV will look blue-ish or something. This is because the ATI card is sending composite video through one of the 3 component cables;
- You should now see "TV Properties" listed on the left pane. Expand it;
- Click on "Image Quality";
- Set the "Flicker Removal" slider to maximum, "Composite sharpness" to "maximum" and "S-Video sharpness" to "more";
- Go back to "Displays Manager";
- Drag and drop the LCD TV icon from the "Attached displays currently disabled" area over the CRT TV icon in "Clone"/"Desktop2". Click on "Swap devices";

Done! You'll have a color component image on your TV, but the flickering will be gone! The only problem is that the flickering will be back if you restart your system. But you can easily re-enable the flicker removal by doing this:

- Go to "Displays Manager" on the Catalyst Control Center;
- Drag the CRT TV icon over the LCD TV icon, click on "swap devices";
- When the "Do you want to keep these settings" dialog opens, select "No". This will revert back to component-out, but will keep the flicker removal enabled.

BTW, I'm using Catalyst 9.3, and just found this a few days ago, not sure if it works on other versions. I also just ordered a DVI-to-component cable since I figure it will allow me to use soft-15KHz and use true 240p resolutions and scan rates via component (which will look the same as RGB-out). If it works, it'll be much easier (and cheaper) than tracking down a RGB monitor.

[blakemcginnis]

Awesome, I'll try to try this out today or tomorrow.  I wonder if there's a way to write a little script to automate the process when you reboot?

I'll let you know how it turns out - and keep me updated on your dvi-to-component project.

[M3d10n]

Since it requires clicks you could try recording a mouse macro if you're building a cab. But the card *does* have the ability of enabling flicker removal for component-out, it's just that it isn't exposed in the interface and that it disables it during boot.

Too bad ATI Tray Tools isn't updated anymore (and has zero options for component-out). Maybe there something hidden in the registry that can be done to enable it.

[Ummon]

Blake, TOK did what others have done and went VGA to component, in which case there should be no flicker, as the TV shouldn't be doing any scaling. You're going component to component, right?

[M3d10n]

Ummon: good to hear that! The cable was fairly easy to find online and pretty cheap too, so I was afraid it wasn't going to work since it sounded so easy.

[blakemcginnis]

Maybe I will try one of those vga-to-component adapters.  I've got 2 of them that I've tried- one dell dvi-to-component and a vga-to-component that came with a projector, but they don't work - one shows nothing and the other I think makes the screen all blue.  So I'm thinking maybe I'll try the ATI-specific one that was mentioned above.

Ummon:  Should I get the DVI-to-component adapter you linked earlier in this thread, or do I need a VGA-to-component?

[Zebidee]

Ummon:  Should I get the DVI-to-component adapter you linked earlier in this thread, or do I need a VGA-to-component?

The DVI-component dongle works on the analogue RGB signals present on the DVI head anyway. It is worth noting that not all DVI video heads provide the analogue RGB signals. I think that the card must be "DVI-I". Check to make sure that your ATI card is compatible.

Also, note that with the ATI DVI-component dongle you must set the dip-switches properly as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

[Zebidee]

I don't know about your Dell DVI-component adaptor, but here is a proper DVI-component adaptor (OEM) for compatible ATI cards (which are listed in the ad). It includes the dip-switches I mentioned. Only $6.20!! Too easy.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041901&p_id=2398&seq=1&format=2

[Ummon]

As Zeb said. He knows more than I do, and has experienced more in this area than I have.