Which video card for 27" TV, Component input to get 640x432??

[M3d10n]

OK, I just got the DVI-component cable. My card detects it, but I can't get a stable image on the TV no matter what. I tried soft15KHz, and it added resolutions, but there's no resolution I set in either Windows nor MAME that doesn't renders in bright pink+green and with severe sync issues.

Anyone knows something about this? I'm suspecting it's got something to do with sync-on-green, or the lack thereof.

[M3d10n]

I also noticed something strange, however. I had to disable my TV's "blue screen" feature to see the out-of-sync images, and after reverting back to the video card's built-in component out, the PC POST screen (which never showed up on the TV) displays out of sync, much like the DVI-component cable does. It only stabilizes when I reach Window's login screen. I can also force the TV out of sync if I open a command prompt window and ALT+ENTER it into fullscreen.

So, there seems to be *something* the card does to produce a stable 480i image over component, which it isn't doing over DVI and on non-Windows managed video modes. If only AMD added a "240p" option on their component video options...

[Ummon]

That would be outside the standard.

[M3d10n]

When I get some time I'll try testing Linux and see if I can get more control over the output signal... outside the standard, huh? How does the Wii do it? Doesn't the 16-bit and 8-bit Virtual Console games (except TG-16) output at 240p, even via component?

Annoying thing is that the resolution seems correct: at one time I got an almost stable image (on a still image) on the screen, and there I could see there was no interlaced flickering and glorious natural scanlines. Sniff...

[Zebidee]

Seems like you are nearly there with the component thing. Your current wierd-sync screen is very close. It has been like over two years since I did it, so my memory of the details is vague. You probably need to click a setting in the ATI control panel or something like that. I suggest that you search the forums, this issue must have been covered before.

[M3d10n]

Had a session with Powerstrip... no results yet. It's hard: I started with a 640x240 resolution, using the TV as extended monitor, and after some messing with front porch, back porch and sync widths I got a image that wasn't scrolling wildly, but the screen was flickery and way too purple.

Sadly, slightly changing the values sent it all to hell again and I couldn't get it back no matter what. The video card even started glitching.

I'll give the forums some new searches, but it's hard because what I'm doing is VGA-to-Component, and not the VGA-to-RGB everyone seems to be doing.

[blakemcginnis]

Any more luck with your component/vga adapter? 

[M3d10n]

Haven't done any more tests yet, need to get an extensor first since the only cable I found is too short and having to move the TV around makes things more involved than it should be.

I am starting to suspect the DVI-Component isn't outputting component, but actually RGB, thus explaining why every resolution I try is out of sync and tinted purple...

[BASS!]

Not to digress but isn't component just rgb with the h / v syncs tied to the green signal? It may just be a custom wiring issue that you could overcome.

[MonMotha]

"Component" video is YPbPr w/ composite sync on luma.  Electrically, it's the same as RGB w/ sync on green, but the colorspace is different.  You have to do a little math to convert RGB to YPbPr or vice versa, and that's independent of what you do with the sync signals.  If you attempt to display RGB on a YPbPr input, it'll look very, very green, but you'll otherwise be able to tell everything's working as there will be a stable image, and there will even be some color, but it certainly won't look right unless you do the colorspace conversion.

[BASS!]

ahhh, k. Yeah the practical application part is the one that confuses me a tad.

[M3d10n]

Someone in another forum just said these VGA-component cables don't output component, but actually  RGB with sync on green. Since both set of cables have a red, a green and a blue lead lots of people mistake the two of them. I sorta suspected so, because it doesn't look like the cable has room in it for a color conversion circuit.

I'm actually running Ubuntu now, and while the TV image is still out of sync, it does look different than the ones I got in Windows. I set the Ubunto desktop to 320x240 and I got an inverted, tiled and scrolling image, with lots of purple and green. I don't know yet how to tweak the video mode further, I just used the Catalyst control panel.

Seems I'll have to live with interlaced output, or find (or build) a true VGA-to-component converter.

[MonMotha]

If you just say "320x240" to Ubuntu, you'll get 320x240 doublescanned.  That is, each line will be scanned twice.  Either that or you'll get it at 120Hz refresh.  Either way, the horizontal sync is 30kHz (VGA compatible), so a TV won't like it.  They do this because that's what you have to do for a PC.

Chances are, you won't be able to get X to do what you want without manually hacking the config file.  This is just not something 99.9% of users have any need for.  Fortunately, xorg.conf is pretty straightforward.  Tell it that your monitor has a horizontal scanrate range of 14.5-16kHz, and hopefully it'll remove the doublescan option from 320x240 for you.  Heck, it may automatically decide to interlace 640x480 for you.  If it doesn't, you'll have to use a modeline.  Fortunately, others have compiled a ready-made list of modelines for this.

I recommend this modeline:
ModeLine "ATSC-480-59.94i" 11.958 640 664 736 760 480 484 492 525 Interlace

That gives you 640x480 at timings that should display properly on any NTSC television (though there will be some overscan).

For an SDTV, you *WILL* have to deal with interlaced output at 640x480.  That's all the TV can do.  No way around it.  You'd need an "EDTV" to handle 640x480 progressive.

I have long suspected that the reason these DVI/VGA-to-component dongles only work on certain hardware is that there is driver trickery involved.  I'm guessing that the card is asked to convert colorspaces internally (something the hardware is very good at doing) then output YPbPr for you.  The dongle just changes the connectors around.  Your experiences seem to confirm this, at least for the dongle you're using.

I have had excellent luck using various methods of getting the PC to output suitably timed video (custom modelines in Linux, driver tricks/soft15k-like utilities in windows, etc.) and hooking the output up to a RGB-to-SVideo adapter I built.  You can buy such adapters pretty cheap from places like arcademvs.com.  Quality isn't quite as good as component, but unless you were to place the two side-by-side, you'd never be able to tell (and even then you'd probably have difficulty).

[M3d10n]

I'll try the custom resolution trick later, but since the colors are sure to be messed up it's kind of a bummer. I can get a fine 480i using the card's built-in component-out, but I was hoping to find a way to get true arcade resolutions out of it.

Maybe if I buy one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2M-SCART-LEAD-TO-15-PIN-HD-VGA-SVGA-CABLE-SENT-NOW_W0QQitemZ130296830426QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item130296830426&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

...and hook it up to one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=220401803516&Category=14965#ebayphotohosting

It looks like it could work, however, that's quite a bit more money to put into an experiment (I'm neither in the USA nor in the UK, so there's shipping and maybe taxes.)

I've seen some VGA-to-svideo converters for sale on local online stores... but I'm afraid to try them because I'm not sure they'd handle 240p resolutions in the way I expect. If they just scale up and interlace it would be wasted money =(

This is the one:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-93508790-adaptador-vga-av-s-video-para-jogos-e-apresentacoes-na-tv-_JM
It's USB powered, and since they say it supports up to 1024x768 with adjustable overscan/underscan I assume it has a scaler built-in.

[MonMotha]

I'll try the custom resolution trick later, but since the colors are sure to be messed up it's kind of a bummer. I can get a fine 480i using the card's built-in component-out, but I was hoping to find a way to get true arcade resolutions out of it.

Maybe if I buy one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2M-SCART-LEAD-TO-15-PIN-HD-VGA-SVGA-CABLE-SENT-NOW_W0QQitemZ130296830426QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item130296830426&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

...and hook it up to one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=220401803516&Category=14965#ebayphotohosting

It looks like it could work, however, that's quite a bit more money to put into an experiment (I'm neither in the USA nor in the UK, so there's shipping and maybe taxes.)

I've seen some VGA-to-svideo converters for sale on local online stores... but I'm afraid to try them because I'm not sure they'd handle 240p resolutions in the way I expect. If they just scale up and interlace it would be wasted money =(

This is the one:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-93508790-adaptador-vga-av-s-video-para-jogos-e-apresentacoes-na-tv-_JM
It's USB powered, and since they say it supports up to 1024x768 with adjustable overscan/underscan I assume it has a scaler built-in.

Does your TV have S-Video (Y/C) input?  If so,  just buy one of the cheap arcademvs.com RGB to S-Video adapters and run your choice of a custom modeline (Linux) or Soft15k/friends (Windows).  That gets you native video on a TV for $30-50 (depending on shipping).  You'll have to live with overscan unless your TV supports geometry adjustments (check service menus), though.  No way to have both native timed video and no overscan on a TV without monitor adjustments.  If you want to crush it down, that involves scaling it which removes the "native-ness".

If you really must have component video (it doesn't look much different from S-Video at 480i or 240p), then that SCART magic box you posted appears to be something that'll work.  It appears to just be a colorspace converter (often known as a "transcoder" for some reason I can't fathom) which is exactly what you need.  You'll still have to get your PC to output TV timed video, of course, but there are lots of ways to do that as mentioned above.  Again, you'll have to live with the overscan unless you can adjust your TV.

There is a way to somewhat preserve native timings while crushing in the overscan, but it involves adding lines (blank) and increasing blank area on lines to effectively "box in" the active image.  This will increase the horizontal scanrate some, but if the monitor can still safely display it, the video should look basically identical.  MAME and friends may support this with some hackery.  There's a limit, though, since your TV has to be able to handle the higher horizontal scanrate.  Many arcade games were already pushing it up into th 16kHz range, so that may not be an option.

The "VGA to S-Video" converters you see at retail (commonly called "scan converters" back in the late 90s) attempt to take anything somewhat PC-ish (640x480 or sometimes even up to 1024x768) and mash it into a TV compatible mode.  Nothing native about it.  Most will not even accept natively timed video at all, but you might get lucky and find one that does.  I'm guessing that's all your last link is.

[M3d10n]

My card has s-video out, but I never tested it. I'll get a cable today to check how it looks. If the image is good enough I'll go with the RGB-Svideo converter. I'll need to find something to hook from VGA to RGB, but I'm sure the forum is full of links to things like that, no?

Thanks a lot for the help.

[MonMotha]

My card has s-video out, but I never tested it. I'll get a cable today to check how it looks. If the image is good enough I'll go with the RGB-Svideo converter. I'll need to find something to hook from VGA to RGB, but I'm sure the forum is full of links to things like that, no?

Thanks a lot for the help.

There's usually a marked difference between the onboard S-Video outputs and an outboard "RGB to S-Video" converter.  The onboard ones are usually giant pixel mashers that do everything in their power to take whatever you feed them and display it on a television, including handling overscan.  This is handy, but the result is about as far from a "native" display as you can get.  Most onboard S-Video outputs I've dealt with either won't accept TV compatible video at all (they just shut down) or will still run it through a bunch of scalers and such negating any "benefits".

The type of outboard converter I'm talking about does nothing but take your suitably timed video in RGB and modulates it (NTSC or PAL, your choice) to TV standards.  No scaling or other rate conversions.  The result is natively timed video, same as you were outputting over the VGA port, but displayed on a TV via S-Video.  Neat.

Give it a shot, though.  Maybe you'll get lucky or the output will be "good enough" for you.

FYI, VGA *is* RGB.  With a little connector work and making sure your resolution/timings are right, you can dump it straight into an arcade monitor.  Only issue is that PC signals are 0.7Vpp while most arcade monitors expect higher signal levels.  Nothing a video amp can't fix.  There's unfortunately no real standard connector for "RGB" video, though that HD15 used by PCs is close (and the pinout and connector predate its use by PCs).

[M3d10n]

Ah, I know too well about what video cards do to their s-video/composite outputs, since I've used composite out years ago. I mean checking the colors, sharpness and bleeding of the s-video connection. If they don't differ too much from component, I'll go for it.

BTW, I noticed that RGB-svideo adapter uses composite sync RGB, but doesn't VGA uses separate H and V syncs? Do I need an adapter to convert H/V to composite sync?

[MonMotha]

Ah, I know too well about what video cards do to their s-video/composite outputs, since I've used composite out years ago. I mean checking the colors, sharpness and bleeding of the s-video connection. If they don't differ too much from component, I'll go for it.

BTW, I noticed that RGB-svideo adapter uses composite sync RGB, but doesn't VGA uses separate H and V syncs? Do I need an adapter to convert H/V to composite sync?

VGA does conventionally use separate sync, but almost all modern PC cards can output composite sync or sync-on-green.  Just need to tell the driver to do so.  The convention is to place composite sync on the horizontal sync output, but some cards put it on both horizontal and vertical.

If your card can't do composite sync on its own, negative composite sync is just +vsync XOR -hsync.  Adjust everything to get polarities right as desired - all can be done on a single 74xx86, and there are nifty ways of making it auto-sense the polarities.  In some cases, you can get by with the classic "twist the wires together", but I'm not a fan.

Note that SCART doesn't use a dedicated sync signal at all: it uses the composite video line to extract sync info.  This is due to the fact that the RGB in SCART was originally designed for a real-time overlay, not actual video transfer.  I'm under the impression that many SCART-equipped sets will accept TTL level sync on their CVBS input, but I don't own any European televisions and don't have enough experience with them to determine if that is indeed the case.

[M3d10n]

VGA does conventionally use separate sync, but almost all modern PC cards can output composite sync or sync-on-green.  Just need to tell the driver to do so.  The convention is to place composite sync on the horizontal sync output, but some cards put it on both horizontal and vertical.

Ah, so that's what the "composite sync" checkbox in PowerStrip is for! I'm pretty sure the card can do it (Radeon HD 4850), so all I need to do is murder a VGA cable and wire it to the converter. Nice.

[blakemcginnis]

Any new developments?

[M3d10n]

Not yet, had some problems and couldn't do any more tests since I won't be home until next week. I think I'll order that RGB-to-svideo converter anyway, to speed things up.

--EDIT--
I just ordered one. Will update when it arrives.

[M3d10n]

Still waiting for the adapter, but I got myself an s-video cable to check how things look with it (I really never used s-video before: I went straight from composite to component). Well, as expected: it's a bit less sharp then component and there is some color bleeding (mostly yellows and blues), but it's noticeably sharper, doesn't do dot-crawling and doesn't create red shadows from nowhere like composite. The interlacing flicker is also less noticeable than component (even with the component anti-flicker trick enabled), probably due to the reduced sharpness.

While component would've been perfect, I think I can settle for this, as long as I can get my hardware scanlines using the RGB-svideo dongle. Maybe the colors will improve when using lower resolutions and a shorter/better cable (had to order a custom 3 meters one since the TV is too far for the stock cables I found during my errands).

But seriously, it would be awesome if someone built and sold no-frills VGA-to-component converters online. Only Europeans got the luxury of having RGB on their TVs due to a fluke of the past, but component is a suitable alternative and there's no proper hardware for that.

Oh wait, found some:
http://www.smarthome.com/777060/VGA-to-Component-Video-Converter/p.aspx
http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/vga-to-component/40h1-50200.htm

A tad too pricey for my tastes, unfortunately. They either have scalers or have huge profit margins, because the circuit looks farily simple: http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102648/article.html

[M3d10n]

Finally got it. I'm doing some tests with it before ordering a custom VGA cable to plug into it. Haven't got a stable picture yet... it's hard trying to change resolutions when the screen is all messed up.

The adapter has two RGB inputs: one with separate V/H sync lines and one with a single sync line. Which one should I use? I believe its only a matter of setting up the resolution properly right now.

-- EDIT --
HOLY CRAP! IT WORKS! After half an our carefully attaching the cable lines into a DVI-VGA adapter and hot-swapping between my monitor and the TV, it worked. Used soft-15KHz and set MAME resolution to auto, directdraw w/o hardware stretch. Looks gorgeous, ZERO flickering. Not 100% perfect due to s-video limitations and I need to tinker with the RGB gain screws since it's a bit yellowish, but hot damn! The stable, non-flickering progressive image actually makes playing close to the TV much more comfortable to the eyes. And these sexy hardware scanlines...

Will go tomorrow get a proper cable to hook the VGA to the RGB plug done and buy a VGA switch box. Any recommendation for a front-end that can actually render on the TV? I tried Mala, but it rotates my monitor upside down every time it switches resolution.

I cannot thank you enough, MonMotha, the RGB-svideo converter was an amazing suggestion. I actually strolled in an arcade a few days ago and really their image output is very similar, if not worse if some cases. I've been told many operators around here actually use s-video so they can use TV tubes due to the RGB monitors being prone to defects.

[M3d10n]

Ah, Soft-15KHz is ---smurfing--- amazing! The first time I tested it my windows desktop was all garbled, but I rebooted and now the desktop is visible. I can even use 800x600 somehow, but the overscan is BRUTAL. The taskbar is completely invisible, as well as window menus. But inside games it's perfect, so no complaints there.

Also, after adjusting the converter RGB gain screws the image is very good. It indeed looks pretty close to component. I'm posting this while using the TV at 800x600 and I can actually read what I'm typing.

[Ummon]

Good news. Maybe you should write some of that up in the monitor wiki.  Oh, and take some pictures.

[M3d10n]

I don't have a proper camera to take good TV pictures, yet. I'll get going on the wiki thing, it'll save people the same trouble in the future... but where exactly in the wiki would I add the DVI-component information?

The overscan is getting onto me, though. CPS2 and MVS games look fine (very minor vertical overscan, adjusting the vertical position a little helps), but anything using x240 or x480 resolution have massive vertical overscan. The Catalyst Control Center doesn't show the monitor adjustment options when connected to the converter for some reason, and getting into my TV service menu involves opening it, and I'm not too keen in voiding my warranty yet. I'll check if Powerstrip can help, I remember it having controls for that. It will be a challenge to open it without seeing the task bar.

I still need a VGA switch box to allow me to switch to the TV without going behind the desk. Couldn't find one in the stores I visited.

[Ummon]

I don't have a proper camera to take good TV pictures, yet. I'll get going on the wiki thing, it'll save people the same trouble in the future... but where exactly in the wiki would I add the DVI-component information?

Um, you'll have to look in its structure. It does at least mention TVs. Wing it.

The overscan is getting onto me, though. CPS2 and MVS games look fine (very minor vertical overscan, adjusting the vertical position a little helps), but anything using x240 or x480 resolution have massive vertical overscan. The Catalyst Control Center doesn't show the monitor adjustment options when connected to the converter for some reason, and getting into my TV service menu involves opening it, and I'm not too keen in voiding my warranty yet. I'll check if Powerstrip can help, I remember it having controls for that. It will be a challenge to open it without seeing the task bar.

Yeah, try PS.

[SailorSat]

Guess someone should build a nice RGB to Component Converter Board.
Can't be TOO complicated.

[Ummon]

I thought some people already have......or are those only the other way round?