Suzo- Happ PC Arcade Spinner? Plug and Play?

[garnerb350]

I was looking on the SUZO-Happ site....came across this...
http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/95265700.htm

This Slikstick Tornado spinner....is it just plug and play....the photo, i cant tell if its a USB or not....
I'm kinda interested....Thinking of maybe trying to incorporate a spinner with my x-arcade tankstick...It looks small enough to fit in my tankstick....
Right now Im just brainstorming....wanted to see what options I have....

[FrizzleFried]

I was looking on the SUZO-Happ site....came across this...
http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/95265700.htm

This Slikstick Tornado spinner....is it just plug and play....the photo, i cant tell if its a USB or not....
I'm kinda interested....Thinking of maybe trying to incorporate a spinner with my x-arcade tankstick...It looks small enough to fit in my tankstick....
Right now Im just brainstorming....wanted to see what options I have....

I recommend the Turbo Twist 2 over the SlikSuck spinner....

www.grooveygamegear.com

[garnerb350]

Thanks Frizzle.....

Stupid question....but ...are most spinners just plug and play?....



Looking back on it all....I think I have only played 2 games growing up that had a spinner....Plus the old arcades shops I used to romp around didnt have em...

[FrizzleFried]

Thanks Frizzle.....

Stupid question....but ...are most spinners just plug and play?....



Looking back on it all....I think I have only played 2 games growing up that had a spinner....Plus the old arcades shops I used to romp around didnt have em...

No...most spinners require an additional board that translates the optical signals to USB/PS2 signals.  That said,  the TT2 includes said board with the product.

[garnerb350]

That board....Frizzle....about how big is it?

Dont wont the board to interfere with the wiring of the other buttons....

I have a X-arcade Tankstick....Looking at the photo... I guess I would have to drill a hole big enough for a pushbutton... slide the spinner in....mount that board under the spinner and run the usb cable to back of PC.... correct?

[FrizzleFried]

That board....Frizzle....about how big is it?

Dont wont the board to interfere with the wiring of the other buttons....

I have a X-arcade Tankstick....Looking at the photo... I guess I would have to drill a hole big enough for a pushbutton... slide the spinner in....mount that board under the spinner and run the usb cable to back of PC.... correct?

About an inch by 3/4 inch or so I'd estimate.  VERY small and comes with a post to mount it anywhere.

[garnerb350]

Thanks Frizzle....going to mark this on my list....

[AndyWarne]

No...most spinners require an additional board that translates the optical signals to USB/PS2 signals.  That said,  the TT2 includes said board with the product.

Well that means its plug and play... as is ours: http://www.ultimarc.com/SpinTrak.htm

For interest: The Happ spinner is a direct copy of the Slikstik Tornado. Funny thing is, Industrias Lorenzo are at it as well, they also have their own version of this spinner.

[RandyT]

For interest: The Happ spinner is a direct rip-off of the Slikstik Tornado. Funny thing is, Industrias Lorenzo are at it as well, they also have their own rip-off of this spinner.

In the interest of accuracy:  HAPP and SlikStik had/have a manufacturing agreement in place.  They are not being "ripped off", as doing such a thing would certainly paint them as sleazeballs in the eyes of those considering doing business with them.  Also, HAPP and IL have a tight business relationship.  It would not surprise me in the slightest if IL is the one manufacturing them for HAPP.

RandyT

[Cornchip]

   Randy and Andy must also have such an agreement.

[RandyT]

   Randy and Andy must also have such an agreement.

Not last I checked...

[Cornchip]

   

[Ginsu Victim]

   Randy and Andy must also have such an agreement.

Come on, they don't need any help stirring things up.

[Cornchip]

 

[ghettodish]

My Turbo Twist Hi-Lo spinner is plug and play. USB. 100% awesome for Discs of Tron.

[ponyboy]

iL and Happ are NOT as tight as you think..............

Ponyboy

[RandyT]

iL and Happ are NOT as tight as you think..............

Really?  Are they, or are they not the primary distributor for IL in the USA?

RandyT

[surface tension]

iL and Happ are NOT as tight as you think..............

Ponyboy

Without saying anything else, that statement is meaningless. So come on, spit it out...

[u_rebelscum]

Happs is starting to manufacture their own designs (example: competition joystick), at IL's expense of lost sales. 

I'd guess they used to be pretty tight, but are near the "yelling/shouting" point of ex-best friends now.  The reason happs is still selling lots of IL stuff are multiyear contracts.  As current agreements expire, we'll start seeing more separation I'll bet.  It might have something to do with the suzo-happs merge, as IL & suzo are more european based and direct competitors, while happs was totally north america.

Total self speculation, though.  It would be great if someone in the know could post real info.

[RandyT]

From a business standpoint, you have to look at any sale as a "good sale".  But the type of info we are talking about is usually kept behind closed doors and often not even known to the other company, so speculation is about all there is. 

What I do know for a fact is that not incredibly long ago, I approached them on a custom part and was directed quite rapidly to HAPP.  Even though the part in question was not a HAPP part, nor related to a HAPP part in any way.  It was made quite clear that HAPP was their contact point for any inquiries with iL from the USA.  Maybe this has changed in recent times, but I only know of my experience with the situation.  The fact that they are now selling product directly to some small distributors does seem to indicate a change in policy, but selling to more than one US distributor does not necessarily indicate a rift or a massive drop-off in business with another.  It's just a necessary business practice that helps the bottom line in tough economic times.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Ok firstly the spinner:
I have seen the Happ version of the Tornado and also seen the IL version. They are different enough to confirm they are not made in the same location. In fact the Happ version is made in their ChinaTec plant in China, whereas the IL version is made by IL themselves.
Its true that Slikstik initiated an agreement with Happ to produce the spinner under license. It is alleged that Happ did not keep their side of the bargain on this though.
I asked Christina from IL if they had any production agreement for the spinner, she replied that they just made it, no agreement in place.

Happ changed tack when they bought out ChinaTec. Previously to this they were mainly a distributor and not a manufacturer. They did resell many IL parts including buttons, joysticks etc. When they became a manufacturer via the China purchase they started producing many of the previous IL items themselves in the China plant.
Now, its possible to compare the Happ Chinese product against the original IL product. I have several examples here, such as buttons, a top-fire joystick etc. Its quite easy to tell them apart if you dont know which is which because there are obvious quality differences.

I dont know if IL receive any royalties from Happs production of IL designed items in China, but if its the same situation as the spinner, they don't. I will ask them about this next time we meet.
 

[RandyT]

Its true that Slikstik initiated an agreement with Happ to produce the spinner under license. It is alleged that Happ did not keep their side of the bargain on this though.

It is called the "SlikStik Tornado" in the HAPP catalog.  If you think HAPP is just using their trademarks, including their business name, without compensation, well, I just don't know what to say about that.

I asked Christina from IL if they had any production agreement for the spinner, she replied that they just made it, no agreement in place.

Nice folks...

Happ changed tack when they bought out ChinaTec. Previously to this they were mainly a distributor and not a manufacturer. They did resell many IL parts including buttons, joysticks etc. When they became a manufacturer via the China purchase they started producing many of the previous IL items themselves in the China plant.

Not entirely accurate.  HAPP has been selling parts from their own tooling for many years and started out as a "manufacturer".  I know, I deal directly with one of their US manufacturers who has told me a number of stories about the early days of HAPP and the relationship they had together with the industry at that time.  It is true, however, that some previously US made parts, have joined the ranks of others that were and still are being manufactured off US shores.  For the record, not unlike just about every other manufacturer in the world.   Actual ownership of the design of these parts has not been made clear yet, but it has been inferred that there was a great deal of input from HAPP on them.  It would be interesting to hear the real story on that one, as it is certainly not as clear as an apparently knocked off spinner design from a loosely related US company.

As for quality, the joystick parts that are buried below the panel are clean and extremely well made, but don't have the more pristine appearance of the iL parts.  Where "the rubber meets the road", meaning actual usage, the two varieties are very comparable.  Of course, we don't ship the stock HAPP part without doing what is necessary to ensure this for our customers, so our situation is somewhat unique in this regard.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

I deal directly with one of their US manufacturers

Thats what I mean. In the past they primarily used other US manufacturers, although they have always done their own quality control and a large amount of design input. They probably did some manufacturing in-house as well.
In fact in the early days all of their arcade controls were manufactured by Coin Controls in the UK. Thats how Frank Happ started, he took over the control sales division of Coin Controls. I suspect the original design of the classic horizontal microswitch button might have been a Coin Controls design.
But their aim of buying the China factory was to move more production in-house in a facility the group themselves own.  http://www.suzohapp.co.uk/websites/suzo/main.nsf/cd/IMPP-78YL3S

[RandyT]

I deal directly with one of their US manufacturers

Thats what I mean. In the past they primarily used other US manufacturers, although they have always done their own quality control and a large amount of design input. They probably did some manufacturing in-house as well.
In fact in the early days all of their arcade controls were manufactured by Coin Controls in the UK. Thats how Frank Happ started, he took over the control sales division of Coin Controls. I suspect the original design of the classic horizontal microswitch button might have been a Coin Controls design.
But their aim of buying the China factory was to move more production in-house in a facility the group themselves own.  http://www.suzohapp.co.uk/websites/suzo/main.nsf/cd/IMPP-78YL3S

This is splitting hairs.  No company who manufactures does all of it in house.  You design and have your injection molding done someplace where it's cost effective and the expertise exists, and assemble the parts wherever it makes the most sense.  That doesn't make you any less of a manufacturer.  This move to bring Chinatec under the same corporate umbrella was a strategic, forward thinking initiative to allow products to come to market quicker, and more cost effectively.  This is different than simply "handling" another manufacturers established product lines, which is what you were inferring they did primarily from the start.

[AndyWarne]

This is different than simply "handling" another manufacturers established product lines, which is what you were inferring they did primarily from the start.

Thats exactly what I was saying. In the field we are concerned with, arcade video game controls, until fairly recently the majority of their products were other manufacturers product lines. Not all but most.

Now most are made in-house.

[RandyT]

Now most are made in-house.

Apparently, you've never seen a Suzo-Happ catalog   What companies grow into is never what they began as, and what they began as, isn't what you stated.

But whatever. 

[Bender]

Back on Topic

Thanks Frizzle.....

Stupid question....but ...are most spinners just plug and play?....



Looking back on it all....I think I have only played 2 games growing up that had a spinner....Plus the old arcades shops I used to romp around didnt have em...

one other thing to keep in mind is the set up after you plug it in.
I've just been wrestling for a week to get the Turbo Twist Hi-lo Spinner to work properly.(Same issue with the TT2) You need to up your mouse poll rate (which can be difficult depending on your OS) otherwise you get crazy backspin because the resolution is so ridiculously high (and unnecessary in my opinion, unless your building a dedicated Arkinoid cab, and I mean really do you need high resolution spinner for glorified Break-Out?)

Both the the Apache and the Ultimarc Spin-Track work without that hassle of changing the mouse polling rate
I don't have a Tornado so I don't know about that one But I'm pretty sure it's a standard resolution spinner, so you wouldn't have to mess with the poll rate

I'm not saying one is better than the other, they all have advantages and disadvantages
and all three vendors make quality products and have great customer service

[AndyWarne]

Apparently, you've never seen a Suzo-Happ catalog   What companies grow into is never what they began as, and what they began as, isn't what you stated.

But whatever. 

I have one here. I also have an Industrias Lorenzo catalog. One day I might go through it and make a note of all the Happ part number equivalents of their items, which covers pretty much everything in the IL catalog.

I make the arduous 2 mile drive to Suzo-Happ on pretty much a weekly basis and even know where stuff is in their warehouse so I am fairly familiar with the company.

[RandyT]

I've just been wrestling for a week to get the Turbo Twist Hi-lo Spinner to work properly.(Same issue with the TT2) You need to up your mouse poll rate (which can be difficult depending on your OS) otherwise you get crazy backspin because the resolution is so ridiculously high (and unnecessary in my opinion, unless your building a dedicated Arkinoid cab, and I mean really do you need high resolution spinner for glorified Break-Out?)

Bender, You have been wrestling with your operating system, not the High-Low.  There is a distinct difference there.  Honestly, you and Frizz are the first instances where I have seen this complaint, and both of you managed to get it done.  Every other non-64bit version of Windows (which is the vast majority), and it's a fast and simple setting.  Ten's of thousands of hardcore 1st person shooter enthusiasts use the same methods to increase precision with high resolution mice.  With 98SE you don't need to do anything extra at all because it honors the requested poll rate of the device as it should.  Also, the High-Low and TT2 work with any version USB port, not just 2.0.  Something you forgot to mention.

BTW, all that extra resolution comes in very handy when you want to emulate geared spinners (not just Arkanoid) and steering controls for driving games (which are just geared spinners with steering wheels on them).  It is also handy for emulating the potentiometer control of a number of games (Omega Race, Avalanche, Circus, etc...), which is analog and also needs very high resolution.  If you want to see the difference in action, you just need to compare your level of control on these types of games with both your old spinner and the High-Low.  My guess is that your opinion about the necessity of all that resolution will not be quite what you stated above. 

If not, and you decide you would like a lower res version, contact me and I will be happy to modify your unit for you to provide more simplicity at the cost of capability.  I have the parts in stock.

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

One easy comparison of the whole high vs. low poll/resolution rate is this:

Take a low res picture and blow it up to a larger size.  It just gets blocky an looks horrible.  Same thing happens in MAME to the player movement.  It does not move smooth.

Take a high resolution picture and shrink it down to a smaller size.  It still looks good.  Just like when you scale a Hi-Res spinner down with a lower MAME analog sensitivity.  The player movement is smooth.

If you have a low amount of data, you can not magically make more out of it, but you can reduce a lot of data down.

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

The poll rate comes into play because some arcade games poll at a higher rate then windows locked at 125Hz supplies data.  So windows is not able to supply the data when the emulated game needs it.  Then supplies the accumulated missed amount when the game and windows sync up.

[Bender]

One easy comparison of the whole high vs. low poll/resolution rate is this:

Take a low res picture and blow it up to a larger size.  It just gets blocky an looks horrible.  Same thing happens in MAME to the player movement.  It does not move smooth.

Take a high resolution picture and shrink it down to a smaller size.  It still looks good.  Just like when you scale a Hi-Res spinner down with a lower MAME analog sensitivity.  The player movement is smooth.

If you have a low amount of data, you can not magically make more out of it, but you can reduce a lot of data down.

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

The poll rate comes into play because some arcade games poll at a higher rate then windows locked at 125Hz supplies data.  So windows is not able to supply the data when the emulated game needs it.  Then supplies the accumulated missed amount when the game and windows sync up.

They are two different things but integrally related when the spinner is such a hi resolution it polls at a rate higher than MOST Mame games it effectively makes it the same issue

Arkinoid is only 224 pixles wide it doesn't take much resolution to move across that screen smoothly
you've got a billboard's resolution for a snapshot space, overkill

[RandyT]

Arkinoid is only 224 pixles wide it doesn't take much resolution to move across that screen smoothly
you've got a billboard's resolution for a snapshot space, overkill

I'm just going to be blunt here, because it's obvious that you aren't getting it.  It is not in any way overkill.  You simply don't understand how things work and are jumping to conclusions about things for which data is available (in the wiki and in these forums), but have apparently not bothered to research.  I will try to help you understand regardless of this, however, in the hopes that this incorrect notion does not once again take root in the minds of uninitiated onlookers.

Arkanoid is indeed only 224 pixels wide, which ends up giving you roughly 200 possible positions on the screen (there are a few less, but this number is easy to deal with).  So  when divided by 4 (the number of positions the firmware can decode from each spoke on a wheel) it gives you a requirement of 50 "spokes" on the encoder wheel.  Follow so far?

So if you only need 50 spokes, the other 250 on the TT2 encoder wheel are just overkill that does nothing for gameplay, right?    WRONG! 

For you to be able to position the paddle at each of those 200 possible positions, you would need to turn the knob on your old spinner an entire revolution.  Now if we look at how far one turned the knob in the original game, you can see that turning the knob 120 degrees gets from position 0 to position 200.  But with your old spinner, you need to turn it 360 degrees.  So you have only one choice with the old spinner and that is to increase the sensitivity (multiplier) in MAME by 300%.  But there's two problems with that.  The first is that doing so would require you to skip two possible positions for every one you can use, thus giving you choppy movement and poor control.  The second is that MAME only goes to 255%, so you can't even get where you want to be, even if poor control and choppy movement didn't bother you (and it definitely does bother anyone who plays the game with any hopes to do well.) 

So what is the answer?  I'm sure you guessed it by now......more resolution!  To get an even close approximation, you need about 3x the number of "spokes" present on your old spinner.  So why is there more than double that on the TT2 / High-Low?  Because Arkanoid isn't the most demanding title in this regard.  Revenge of DOH takes the requirements of Arkanoid and doubles them.

Now lets consider the effect a larger than original knob has on the "feel" of the game.  Some folks like those big ol' spinner knobs that look good, but affect gameplay negatively.  The larger the diameter of the knob, the more surface that must pass through your fingers when turning it.  Simple geometry.  So in order to get that level of control present in the original game, you need to boost the sensitivity in MAME.  And you NEVER  want to go higher than 100%, because you start to skip positions.  So the answer is to have more resolution available than required even by the original.

After reading the last paragraph, and considering what effect a larger knob has on gameplay, think about the effect a 6 or 7 inch diameter wheel will have.  This is why the wheels are actually useful on a TT2 / High Low as opposed to the old spinner types.  Arcade optical wheel controls used geared spinners to get that high resolution, and without it, you would feel like you were turning in mud due to the slow reaction times, or you would have poor steering control because you aren't able to hit every possible direction (again, caused by cranking the sensitivity up to over 100%.)

So that's it.  I've done my best and I hope it helps you appreciate the reason why it's there and lets you understand how to use it to your advantage.  If not, well....I tried

RandyT

[TPB]

Bender, You have been wrestling with your operating system, not the High-Low.

Bender has been wrestling with the TT-HL's incompatibility with his 64 bit OS.

Due to its older USB 1.1 interface, the TT-HL suffers from back-spin when used with his 64 bit OS.  Only a heap a fiddling around and applying an OS patch remedied the problem.

It appears the best spinner that's currently available for a 64 bit OS is the Ultimarc SpinTrak.  It offers the same high resolution and compact size of the TT2 and TT-HL, but with the added benefit of faster USB 2.0 technology that works "out of the box" without any back-spin problems, and with no need to apply OS patches.

That's the impression I get from Bender's experience (and he must know his stuff - he once modded a U360 stick to be top-fire).

No doubt we'll see USB 2.0 versions of the TT2 and TT-HL in the future.

[RandyT]

Bender has been wrestling with the TT-HL's incompatibility with his 64 bit OS.

It works fine, so apparently it's not incompatible.  And the solution is not an "OS patch".  It's just a piece of software that the crazy 64-bit MS OS makes you jump through a few more hoops in order to use.  Lot of folks on the web have been using it and do so without crippling their systems.  Stuff happens, but not all of the time, and not to everyone.

No doubt we'll see USB 2.0 versions of the TT2 and TT-HL in the future.

Unlikely.  As I have already stated in a different thread, I won't sacrifice compatibility with the huge number of USB 1.1 systems out there in order to accommodate the relatively microscopic number of 64 bit users in this market, especially when a widely used software solution exists which can actually outperform the "out of the box 2.0 only" approach.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Unlikely.  As I have already stated in a different thread, I won't sacrifice compatibility with the huge number of USB 1.1 systems out there in order to accommodate the relatively microscopic number of 64 bit users in this market, especially when a widely used software solution exists which can actually outperform the "out of the box 2.0 only" approach.

RandyT

You are getting confused betwen USB 1.1, USB 2.0 and low speed USB vs full speed USB.
A device does not need to be USB 2.0 to overcome the in-built Windows poll rate. It needs to be full-speed USB rather then low-speed USB.
Full speed USB devices work perfectly well with USB 1.1. There is no compatibility issue at all.

Using a low-speed USB device with an 8-bit packet gives only 128 maximum pulses every packet. This is simply not enough with a 1200 pulse spinner with the fixed poll rate of Windows, so increasing the poll rate and/or packet size is mandatory to get the full movement speed of the device.

The interface counts the pulses from the spinner and the counter is reset every time the host polls the device. If the host is polling too slow, the counter will reach its limit if the spinner is being turned fast. What happens then depends on the logic in the interface. If its properly designed it will stay at its maximum until cleared by a poll, and not go any further. If not properly designed, it might overflow and wrap around to a negative value, thus causing backspin. 

This is never an issue with full-speed USB as we can have a 16 bit packet which will never max out, even with the standard poll rate. But the icing on the cake is we can increase the poll rate in the device as well without any Windows tweaks.

It is correct that the high resolution of the spinner brings benefits which is why we went with 1000 pulses on the original SpinTrak, the first high-res spinner on the market, then 1200 on the current model. The full benefit is reached with a full-speed USB interface, but actually even with the standard Windows poll rate and a low-speed interface there are still benefits but in this case its essential that the interface has logic to prevent backspin, because the max speed will often be reached.

[RandyT]

You are getting confused betwen USB 1.1, USB 2.0 and low speed USB vs full speed USB.
A device does not need to be USB 2.0 to overcome the in-built Windows poll rate. It needs to be full-speed USB rather then low-speed USB.
Full speed USB devices work perfectly well with USB 1.1. There is no compatibility issue at all.

Not at all.  As a matter of practicality, most decent full-speed chip offerings today are USB 2.0 based.

It is correct that the high resolution of the spinner brings benefits which is why we went with 1000 pulses on the original SpinTrak, the first high-res spinner on the market....

Actually, the first high res spinner was the original TurboTwist.  It was doing full Arkanoid resolution before Ultimarc even had an offering....

[Derrick Renaud]

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

They are two different things but integrally related when the spinner is such a hi resolution it polls at a rate higher than MOST Mame games it effectively makes it the same issue

Hopefully you do know that I have more then a passing knowledge of MAME's input code, as I helped write some of it.  And I know something about how arcade hardware works.  But you are entitled to your opinion of why backspin happens, so let me run these numbers by you.

Say a mouse interface is 8-bit and not the newer 16-bit.  This means it can update at max +127/-128 each poll.  Windows is locked at 125Hz.  The spinner has a 1200 per revolution rate.  That gives us:

127*125/1200 = 13.2 turns per second or *60 for 793 RPM.  Do you really think you can spin it that quick to make a high resolution spinner overflow?  Maybe, just a small maybe, you could get enough acceleration at the start of the spin to overflow for a few samples.  But you would really have to be trying and it would not happen in any regular game play.

So hopefully that backs up my original statement.  I am not trying to win the argument, just trying to clear up the multiple issues that cause backspin.

If you adjust the MAME analog sensitivity so it scales the hires spinner to the same counts per revolution (PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT in MAME code) as the original game's control, then using a Hires Spinner locked at 125Hz poll rate is not the cause of the backspin.

The fault goes back to what I described in the other post:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=89658.msg944272#msg944272

Notice I also state there that 125Hz is lower then what MOST Mame games poll at.  At least the most complained about backspin issue games.  You are still confusing poll rate and the amount of accumulated data per poll.  2 completely separate things that look like the same backspin issue to a player.  Both have different fixes.  They combine like you say only when the windows poll rate is lower then the emulated games poll rate.  Which means the issue is still Windows locking the poll rate at 125Hz.  Not the fact that you are using a Hi-res spinner.  You will still have the problem with a lo-res spinner that is scaled to supply the proper full turn count.

Now I just have to get off my lazy a** and code my described fix.  Which I stated should help but is no replacement for getting the poll rate to 500Hz.

BTW, just so you know where the 6% sensitivity comes from for Tempest.  Tempest has a PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT of 72, meaning the original control and interface supplied 72 counts per 1 full turn.  To use a 1200 count spinner we need to do 72/1200=0.06 or 6%.  It's mathematical magic.   

[Derrick Renaud]

This is never an issue with full-speed USB as we can have a 16 bit packet which will never max out, even with the standard poll rate. But the icing on the cake is we can increase the poll rate in the device as well without any Windows tweaks.

Andy, have you tried the mouserate program available here: http://mas0ne.servegame.com/mousepolling_rate_vista?

Can you test your interfaces on Vista64 SP1 with it and confirm you get faster then 125Hz?  You should also be able to test on an unpatched XP.

The opti-pac is not locked, but even on XP, you can not use it faster then 125Hz without patching the poll rate with one of the hacking programs available.

I understand what you are saying that your devices are not locked, but that does not mean that you can use them at a faster rate then Microsoft has decided to allow you to.

I would not doubt that MS deliberately does this, so other vender's can sell their mice with drivers that magically allow higher poll rates when they pay for driver signing.

[Bender]

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

They are two different things but integrally related when the spinner is such a hi resolution it polls at a rate higher than MOST Mame games it effectively makes it the same issue

Hopefully you do know that I have more then a passing knowledge of MAME's input code, as I helped write some of it.  And I know something about how arcade hardware works.  But you are entitled to your opinion of why backspin happens, so let me run these numbers by you.

Say a mouse interface is 8-bit and not the newer 16-bit.  This means it can update at max +127/-128 each poll.  Windows is locked at 125Hz.  The spinner has a 1200 per revolution rate.  That gives us:

127*125/1200 = 13.2 turns per second or *60 for 793 RPM.  Do you really think you can spin it that quick to make a high resolution spinner overflow?  Maybe, just a small maybe, you could get enough acceleration at the start of the spin to overflow for a few samples.  But you would really have to be trying and it would not happen in any regular game play.

So hopefully that backs up my original statement.  I am not trying to win the argument, just trying to clear up the multiple issues that cause backspin.

If you adjust the MAME analog sensitivity so it scales the hires spinner to the same counts per revolution (PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT in MAME code) as the original game's control, then using a Hires Spinner locked at 125Hz poll rate is not the cause of the backspin.

The fault goes back to what I described in the other post:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=89658.msg944272#msg944272

Notice I also state there that 125Hz is lower then what MOST Mame games poll at.  At least the most complained about backspin issue games.  You are still confusing poll rate and the amount of accumulated data per poll.  2 completely separate things that look like the same backspin issue to a player.  Both have different fixes.  They combine like you say only when the windows poll rate is lower then the emulated games poll rate.  Which means the issue is still Windows locking the poll rate at 125Hz.  Not the fact that you are using a Hi-res spinner.  You will still have the problem with a lo-res spinner that is scaled to supply the proper full turn count.

Now I just have to get off my lazy a** and code my described fix.  Which I stated should help but is no replacement for getting the poll rate to 500Hz.

BTW, just so you know where the 6% sensitivity comes from for Tempest.  Tempest has a PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT of 72, meaning the original control and interface supplied 72 counts per 1 full turn.  To use a 1200 count spinner we need to do 72/1200=0.06 or 6%.  It's mathematical magic.   

First of all Thank you for your work on Mame
and for the informative debate

I did do some research in all of this and was aware of the mathematical magic that got Tempest to sensitivity of 6
and thanks to your post I do have a better understanding of the situation
and like you I'm not trying to win an argument but get to the bottom of the issue

so before I patched the OS poll rate when I played tempest with the hi-res spinner and did a hard spin to move around quickly it moved in the other direction first then went the right way, is that not backspin? Maybe that is just how I play but it didn't do that in the arcade, it didn't do that with a regular resolution spinner, and it didn't do that after the poll rate was patched.

so if I understand the problem, it is that there is too much data being thrown at windows to handle at 125Hz
so if you have a regular resolution spinner wouldn't that be less data being sent, and wouldn't that explain why a standard resolution spinner works fine under the 125Hz windows standard?

Hence my issue with the Hi-Res spinners

and now after reading Randy's post I can see if your using it as a steering wheel where the Hi-Res would be an advantage
although I don't agree with the first part in practice (I understand it in theory) Arkinoid works fine for me with a regular resolution spinner

[RandyT]

so if you have a regular resolution spinner wouldn't that be less data being sent, and wouldn't that explain why a standard resolution spinner works fine under the 125Hz windows standard?

Hence my issue with the Hi-Res spinners

and now after reading Randy's post I can see if your using it as a steering wheel where the Hi-Res would be an advantage

I think the biggest misconception is that you believe there is a "standard resolution spinner".  Before SlikStik and Apache decided to make theirs, OSCAR controls had several different varieties with different resolutions. Before that, folks were hacking mice with whatever they could muster.  And long before that, each arcade manufacturer decided upon a specific piece of hardware and decoding method to do what they wanted for a particular game.  The only way to support all of the games well, which most want to do because A) good spinners aren't cheap, and B) there are only so many games that support their use, is to have a resolution that is high enough to feed the proper amount of data to the game based on original requirements, optionally taking knob size variations into consideration.

Derrick is stating that some games, like the very popular Tempest, have hardware that is significantly different enough that backspin is still far more likely than it would be otherwise due to the way it collects data.  He has a very interesting solution to the situation, that will hopefully help other titles with similar hardware.  Centipede has never played well, something like a trackball emulating joystick input, and I would love to see if this approach helps to fix the long standing issue.

And if all you got out of the explanation I posted earlier is that "Hi Res is only an advantage as a steering wheel" (paraphrased), then I apparently failed to explain it well enough.

RandyT