Suzo- Happ PC Arcade Spinner? Plug and Play?

[garnerb350]

I was looking on the SUZO-Happ site....came across this...
http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/95265700.htm

This Slikstick Tornado spinner....is it just plug and play....the photo, i cant tell if its a USB or not....
I'm kinda interested....Thinking of maybe trying to incorporate a spinner with my x-arcade tankstick...It looks small enough to fit in my tankstick....
Right now Im just brainstorming....wanted to see what options I have....

[FrizzleFried]

I was looking on the SUZO-Happ site....came across this...
http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/95265700.htm

This Slikstick Tornado spinner....is it just plug and play....the photo, i cant tell if its a USB or not....
I'm kinda interested....Thinking of maybe trying to incorporate a spinner with my x-arcade tankstick...It looks small enough to fit in my tankstick....
Right now Im just brainstorming....wanted to see what options I have....

I recommend the Turbo Twist 2 over the SlikSuck spinner....

www.grooveygamegear.com

[garnerb350]

Thanks Frizzle.....

Stupid question....but ...are most spinners just plug and play?....



Looking back on it all....I think I have only played 2 games growing up that had a spinner....Plus the old arcades shops I used to romp around didnt have em...

[FrizzleFried]

Thanks Frizzle.....

Stupid question....but ...are most spinners just plug and play?....



Looking back on it all....I think I have only played 2 games growing up that had a spinner....Plus the old arcades shops I used to romp around didnt have em...

No...most spinners require an additional board that translates the optical signals to USB/PS2 signals.  That said,  the TT2 includes said board with the product.

[garnerb350]

That board....Frizzle....about how big is it?

Dont wont the board to interfere with the wiring of the other buttons....

I have a X-arcade Tankstick....Looking at the photo... I guess I would have to drill a hole big enough for a pushbutton... slide the spinner in....mount that board under the spinner and run the usb cable to back of PC.... correct?

[FrizzleFried]

That board....Frizzle....about how big is it?

Dont wont the board to interfere with the wiring of the other buttons....

I have a X-arcade Tankstick....Looking at the photo... I guess I would have to drill a hole big enough for a pushbutton... slide the spinner in....mount that board under the spinner and run the usb cable to back of PC.... correct?

About an inch by 3/4 inch or so I'd estimate.  VERY small and comes with a post to mount it anywhere.

[garnerb350]

Thanks Frizzle....going to mark this on my list....

[AndyWarne]

No...most spinners require an additional board that translates the optical signals to USB/PS2 signals.  That said,  the TT2 includes said board with the product.

Well that means its plug and play... as is ours: http://www.ultimarc.com/SpinTrak.htm

For interest: The Happ spinner is a direct copy of the Slikstik Tornado. Funny thing is, Industrias Lorenzo are at it as well, they also have their own version of this spinner.

[RandyT]

For interest: The Happ spinner is a direct rip-off of the Slikstik Tornado. Funny thing is, Industrias Lorenzo are at it as well, they also have their own rip-off of this spinner.

In the interest of accuracy:  HAPP and SlikStik had/have a manufacturing agreement in place.  They are not being "ripped off", as doing such a thing would certainly paint them as sleazeballs in the eyes of those considering doing business with them.  Also, HAPP and IL have a tight business relationship.  It would not surprise me in the slightest if IL is the one manufacturing them for HAPP.

RandyT

[Cornchip]

   Randy and Andy must also have such an agreement.

[RandyT]

   Randy and Andy must also have such an agreement.

Not last I checked...

[Cornchip]

   

[Ginsu Victim]

   Randy and Andy must also have such an agreement.

Come on, they don't need any help stirring things up.

[Cornchip]

 

[ghettodish]

My Turbo Twist Hi-Lo spinner is plug and play. USB. 100% awesome for Discs of Tron.

[ponyboy]

iL and Happ are NOT as tight as you think..............

Ponyboy

[RandyT]

iL and Happ are NOT as tight as you think..............

Really?  Are they, or are they not the primary distributor for IL in the USA?

RandyT

[surface tension]

iL and Happ are NOT as tight as you think..............

Ponyboy

Without saying anything else, that statement is meaningless. So come on, spit it out...

[u_rebelscum]

Happs is starting to manufacture their own designs (example: competition joystick), at IL's expense of lost sales. 

I'd guess they used to be pretty tight, but are near the "yelling/shouting" point of ex-best friends now.  The reason happs is still selling lots of IL stuff are multiyear contracts.  As current agreements expire, we'll start seeing more separation I'll bet.  It might have something to do with the suzo-happs merge, as IL & suzo are more european based and direct competitors, while happs was totally north america.

Total self speculation, though.  It would be great if someone in the know could post real info.

[RandyT]

From a business standpoint, you have to look at any sale as a "good sale".  But the type of info we are talking about is usually kept behind closed doors and often not even known to the other company, so speculation is about all there is. 

What I do know for a fact is that not incredibly long ago, I approached them on a custom part and was directed quite rapidly to HAPP.  Even though the part in question was not a HAPP part, nor related to a HAPP part in any way.  It was made quite clear that HAPP was their contact point for any inquiries with iL from the USA.  Maybe this has changed in recent times, but I only know of my experience with the situation.  The fact that they are now selling product directly to some small distributors does seem to indicate a change in policy, but selling to more than one US distributor does not necessarily indicate a rift or a massive drop-off in business with another.  It's just a necessary business practice that helps the bottom line in tough economic times.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Ok firstly the spinner:
I have seen the Happ version of the Tornado and also seen the IL version. They are different enough to confirm they are not made in the same location. In fact the Happ version is made in their ChinaTec plant in China, whereas the IL version is made by IL themselves.
Its true that Slikstik initiated an agreement with Happ to produce the spinner under license. It is alleged that Happ did not keep their side of the bargain on this though.
I asked Christina from IL if they had any production agreement for the spinner, she replied that they just made it, no agreement in place.

Happ changed tack when they bought out ChinaTec. Previously to this they were mainly a distributor and not a manufacturer. They did resell many IL parts including buttons, joysticks etc. When they became a manufacturer via the China purchase they started producing many of the previous IL items themselves in the China plant.
Now, its possible to compare the Happ Chinese product against the original IL product. I have several examples here, such as buttons, a top-fire joystick etc. Its quite easy to tell them apart if you dont know which is which because there are obvious quality differences.

I dont know if IL receive any royalties from Happs production of IL designed items in China, but if its the same situation as the spinner, they don't. I will ask them about this next time we meet.
 

[RandyT]

Its true that Slikstik initiated an agreement with Happ to produce the spinner under license. It is alleged that Happ did not keep their side of the bargain on this though.

It is called the "SlikStik Tornado" in the HAPP catalog.  If you think HAPP is just using their trademarks, including their business name, without compensation, well, I just don't know what to say about that.

I asked Christina from IL if they had any production agreement for the spinner, she replied that they just made it, no agreement in place.

Nice folks...

Happ changed tack when they bought out ChinaTec. Previously to this they were mainly a distributor and not a manufacturer. They did resell many IL parts including buttons, joysticks etc. When they became a manufacturer via the China purchase they started producing many of the previous IL items themselves in the China plant.

Not entirely accurate.  HAPP has been selling parts from their own tooling for many years and started out as a "manufacturer".  I know, I deal directly with one of their US manufacturers who has told me a number of stories about the early days of HAPP and the relationship they had together with the industry at that time.  It is true, however, that some previously US made parts, have joined the ranks of others that were and still are being manufactured off US shores.  For the record, not unlike just about every other manufacturer in the world.   Actual ownership of the design of these parts has not been made clear yet, but it has been inferred that there was a great deal of input from HAPP on them.  It would be interesting to hear the real story on that one, as it is certainly not as clear as an apparently knocked off spinner design from a loosely related US company.

As for quality, the joystick parts that are buried below the panel are clean and extremely well made, but don't have the more pristine appearance of the iL parts.  Where "the rubber meets the road", meaning actual usage, the two varieties are very comparable.  Of course, we don't ship the stock HAPP part without doing what is necessary to ensure this for our customers, so our situation is somewhat unique in this regard.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

I deal directly with one of their US manufacturers

Thats what I mean. In the past they primarily used other US manufacturers, although they have always done their own quality control and a large amount of design input. They probably did some manufacturing in-house as well.
In fact in the early days all of their arcade controls were manufactured by Coin Controls in the UK. Thats how Frank Happ started, he took over the control sales division of Coin Controls. I suspect the original design of the classic horizontal microswitch button might have been a Coin Controls design.
But their aim of buying the China factory was to move more production in-house in a facility the group themselves own.  http://www.suzohapp.co.uk/websites/suzo/main.nsf/cd/IMPP-78YL3S

[RandyT]

I deal directly with one of their US manufacturers

Thats what I mean. In the past they primarily used other US manufacturers, although they have always done their own quality control and a large amount of design input. They probably did some manufacturing in-house as well.
In fact in the early days all of their arcade controls were manufactured by Coin Controls in the UK. Thats how Frank Happ started, he took over the control sales division of Coin Controls. I suspect the original design of the classic horizontal microswitch button might have been a Coin Controls design.
But their aim of buying the China factory was to move more production in-house in a facility the group themselves own.  http://www.suzohapp.co.uk/websites/suzo/main.nsf/cd/IMPP-78YL3S

This is splitting hairs.  No company who manufactures does all of it in house.  You design and have your injection molding done someplace where it's cost effective and the expertise exists, and assemble the parts wherever it makes the most sense.  That doesn't make you any less of a manufacturer.  This move to bring Chinatec under the same corporate umbrella was a strategic, forward thinking initiative to allow products to come to market quicker, and more cost effectively.  This is different than simply "handling" another manufacturers established product lines, which is what you were inferring they did primarily from the start.

[AndyWarne]

This is different than simply "handling" another manufacturers established product lines, which is what you were inferring they did primarily from the start.

Thats exactly what I was saying. In the field we are concerned with, arcade video game controls, until fairly recently the majority of their products were other manufacturers product lines. Not all but most.

Now most are made in-house.

[RandyT]

Now most are made in-house.

Apparently, you've never seen a Suzo-Happ catalog   What companies grow into is never what they began as, and what they began as, isn't what you stated.

But whatever. 

[Bender]

Back on Topic

Thanks Frizzle.....

Stupid question....but ...are most spinners just plug and play?....



Looking back on it all....I think I have only played 2 games growing up that had a spinner....Plus the old arcades shops I used to romp around didnt have em...

one other thing to keep in mind is the set up after you plug it in.
I've just been wrestling for a week to get the Turbo Twist Hi-lo Spinner to work properly.(Same issue with the TT2) You need to up your mouse poll rate (which can be difficult depending on your OS) otherwise you get crazy backspin because the resolution is so ridiculously high (and unnecessary in my opinion, unless your building a dedicated Arkinoid cab, and I mean really do you need high resolution spinner for glorified Break-Out?)

Both the the Apache and the Ultimarc Spin-Track work without that hassle of changing the mouse polling rate
I don't have a Tornado so I don't know about that one But I'm pretty sure it's a standard resolution spinner, so you wouldn't have to mess with the poll rate

I'm not saying one is better than the other, they all have advantages and disadvantages
and all three vendors make quality products and have great customer service

[AndyWarne]

Apparently, you've never seen a Suzo-Happ catalog   What companies grow into is never what they began as, and what they began as, isn't what you stated.

But whatever. 

I have one here. I also have an Industrias Lorenzo catalog. One day I might go through it and make a note of all the Happ part number equivalents of their items, which covers pretty much everything in the IL catalog.

I make the arduous 2 mile drive to Suzo-Happ on pretty much a weekly basis and even know where stuff is in their warehouse so I am fairly familiar with the company.

[RandyT]

I've just been wrestling for a week to get the Turbo Twist Hi-lo Spinner to work properly.(Same issue with the TT2) You need to up your mouse poll rate (which can be difficult depending on your OS) otherwise you get crazy backspin because the resolution is so ridiculously high (and unnecessary in my opinion, unless your building a dedicated Arkinoid cab, and I mean really do you need high resolution spinner for glorified Break-Out?)

Bender, You have been wrestling with your operating system, not the High-Low.  There is a distinct difference there.  Honestly, you and Frizz are the first instances where I have seen this complaint, and both of you managed to get it done.  Every other non-64bit version of Windows (which is the vast majority), and it's a fast and simple setting.  Ten's of thousands of hardcore 1st person shooter enthusiasts use the same methods to increase precision with high resolution mice.  With 98SE you don't need to do anything extra at all because it honors the requested poll rate of the device as it should.  Also, the High-Low and TT2 work with any version USB port, not just 2.0.  Something you forgot to mention.

BTW, all that extra resolution comes in very handy when you want to emulate geared spinners (not just Arkanoid) and steering controls for driving games (which are just geared spinners with steering wheels on them).  It is also handy for emulating the potentiometer control of a number of games (Omega Race, Avalanche, Circus, etc...), which is analog and also needs very high resolution.  If you want to see the difference in action, you just need to compare your level of control on these types of games with both your old spinner and the High-Low.  My guess is that your opinion about the necessity of all that resolution will not be quite what you stated above. 

If not, and you decide you would like a lower res version, contact me and I will be happy to modify your unit for you to provide more simplicity at the cost of capability.  I have the parts in stock.

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

One easy comparison of the whole high vs. low poll/resolution rate is this:

Take a low res picture and blow it up to a larger size.  It just gets blocky an looks horrible.  Same thing happens in MAME to the player movement.  It does not move smooth.

Take a high resolution picture and shrink it down to a smaller size.  It still looks good.  Just like when you scale a Hi-Res spinner down with a lower MAME analog sensitivity.  The player movement is smooth.

If you have a low amount of data, you can not magically make more out of it, but you can reduce a lot of data down.

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

The poll rate comes into play because some arcade games poll at a higher rate then windows locked at 125Hz supplies data.  So windows is not able to supply the data when the emulated game needs it.  Then supplies the accumulated missed amount when the game and windows sync up.

[Bender]

One easy comparison of the whole high vs. low poll/resolution rate is this:

Take a low res picture and blow it up to a larger size.  It just gets blocky an looks horrible.  Same thing happens in MAME to the player movement.  It does not move smooth.

Take a high resolution picture and shrink it down to a smaller size.  It still looks good.  Just like when you scale a Hi-Res spinner down with a lower MAME analog sensitivity.  The player movement is smooth.

If you have a low amount of data, you can not magically make more out of it, but you can reduce a lot of data down.

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

The poll rate comes into play because some arcade games poll at a higher rate then windows locked at 125Hz supplies data.  So windows is not able to supply the data when the emulated game needs it.  Then supplies the accumulated missed amount when the game and windows sync up.

They are two different things but integrally related when the spinner is such a hi resolution it polls at a rate higher than MOST Mame games it effectively makes it the same issue

Arkinoid is only 224 pixles wide it doesn't take much resolution to move across that screen smoothly
you've got a billboard's resolution for a snapshot space, overkill

[RandyT]

Arkinoid is only 224 pixles wide it doesn't take much resolution to move across that screen smoothly
you've got a billboard's resolution for a snapshot space, overkill

I'm just going to be blunt here, because it's obvious that you aren't getting it.  It is not in any way overkill.  You simply don't understand how things work and are jumping to conclusions about things for which data is available (in the wiki and in these forums), but have apparently not bothered to research.  I will try to help you understand regardless of this, however, in the hopes that this incorrect notion does not once again take root in the minds of uninitiated onlookers.

Arkanoid is indeed only 224 pixels wide, which ends up giving you roughly 200 possible positions on the screen (there are a few less, but this number is easy to deal with).  So  when divided by 4 (the number of positions the firmware can decode from each spoke on a wheel) it gives you a requirement of 50 "spokes" on the encoder wheel.  Follow so far?

So if you only need 50 spokes, the other 250 on the TT2 encoder wheel are just overkill that does nothing for gameplay, right?    WRONG! 

For you to be able to position the paddle at each of those 200 possible positions, you would need to turn the knob on your old spinner an entire revolution.  Now if we look at how far one turned the knob in the original game, you can see that turning the knob 120 degrees gets from position 0 to position 200.  But with your old spinner, you need to turn it 360 degrees.  So you have only one choice with the old spinner and that is to increase the sensitivity (multiplier) in MAME by 300%.  But there's two problems with that.  The first is that doing so would require you to skip two possible positions for every one you can use, thus giving you choppy movement and poor control.  The second is that MAME only goes to 255%, so you can't even get where you want to be, even if poor control and choppy movement didn't bother you (and it definitely does bother anyone who plays the game with any hopes to do well.) 

So what is the answer?  I'm sure you guessed it by now......more resolution!  To get an even close approximation, you need about 3x the number of "spokes" present on your old spinner.  So why is there more than double that on the TT2 / High-Low?  Because Arkanoid isn't the most demanding title in this regard.  Revenge of DOH takes the requirements of Arkanoid and doubles them.

Now lets consider the effect a larger than original knob has on the "feel" of the game.  Some folks like those big ol' spinner knobs that look good, but affect gameplay negatively.  The larger the diameter of the knob, the more surface that must pass through your fingers when turning it.  Simple geometry.  So in order to get that level of control present in the original game, you need to boost the sensitivity in MAME.  And you NEVER  want to go higher than 100%, because you start to skip positions.  So the answer is to have more resolution available than required even by the original.

After reading the last paragraph, and considering what effect a larger knob has on gameplay, think about the effect a 6 or 7 inch diameter wheel will have.  This is why the wheels are actually useful on a TT2 / High Low as opposed to the old spinner types.  Arcade optical wheel controls used geared spinners to get that high resolution, and without it, you would feel like you were turning in mud due to the slow reaction times, or you would have poor steering control because you aren't able to hit every possible direction (again, caused by cranking the sensitivity up to over 100%.)

So that's it.  I've done my best and I hope it helps you appreciate the reason why it's there and lets you understand how to use it to your advantage.  If not, well....I tried

RandyT

[TPB]

Bender, You have been wrestling with your operating system, not the High-Low.

Bender has been wrestling with the TT-HL's incompatibility with his 64 bit OS.

Due to its older USB 1.1 interface, the TT-HL suffers from back-spin when used with his 64 bit OS.  Only a heap a fiddling around and applying an OS patch remedied the problem.

It appears the best spinner that's currently available for a 64 bit OS is the Ultimarc SpinTrak.  It offers the same high resolution and compact size of the TT2 and TT-HL, but with the added benefit of faster USB 2.0 technology that works "out of the box" without any back-spin problems, and with no need to apply OS patches.

That's the impression I get from Bender's experience (and he must know his stuff - he once modded a U360 stick to be top-fire).

No doubt we'll see USB 2.0 versions of the TT2 and TT-HL in the future.

[RandyT]

Bender has been wrestling with the TT-HL's incompatibility with his 64 bit OS.

It works fine, so apparently it's not incompatible.  And the solution is not an "OS patch".  It's just a piece of software that the crazy 64-bit MS OS makes you jump through a few more hoops in order to use.  Lot of folks on the web have been using it and do so without crippling their systems.  Stuff happens, but not all of the time, and not to everyone.

No doubt we'll see USB 2.0 versions of the TT2 and TT-HL in the future.

Unlikely.  As I have already stated in a different thread, I won't sacrifice compatibility with the huge number of USB 1.1 systems out there in order to accommodate the relatively microscopic number of 64 bit users in this market, especially when a widely used software solution exists which can actually outperform the "out of the box 2.0 only" approach.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Unlikely.  As I have already stated in a different thread, I won't sacrifice compatibility with the huge number of USB 1.1 systems out there in order to accommodate the relatively microscopic number of 64 bit users in this market, especially when a widely used software solution exists which can actually outperform the "out of the box 2.0 only" approach.

RandyT

You are getting confused betwen USB 1.1, USB 2.0 and low speed USB vs full speed USB.
A device does not need to be USB 2.0 to overcome the in-built Windows poll rate. It needs to be full-speed USB rather then low-speed USB.
Full speed USB devices work perfectly well with USB 1.1. There is no compatibility issue at all.

Using a low-speed USB device with an 8-bit packet gives only 128 maximum pulses every packet. This is simply not enough with a 1200 pulse spinner with the fixed poll rate of Windows, so increasing the poll rate and/or packet size is mandatory to get the full movement speed of the device.

The interface counts the pulses from the spinner and the counter is reset every time the host polls the device. If the host is polling too slow, the counter will reach its limit if the spinner is being turned fast. What happens then depends on the logic in the interface. If its properly designed it will stay at its maximum until cleared by a poll, and not go any further. If not properly designed, it might overflow and wrap around to a negative value, thus causing backspin. 

This is never an issue with full-speed USB as we can have a 16 bit packet which will never max out, even with the standard poll rate. But the icing on the cake is we can increase the poll rate in the device as well without any Windows tweaks.

It is correct that the high resolution of the spinner brings benefits which is why we went with 1000 pulses on the original SpinTrak, the first high-res spinner on the market, then 1200 on the current model. The full benefit is reached with a full-speed USB interface, but actually even with the standard Windows poll rate and a low-speed interface there are still benefits but in this case its essential that the interface has logic to prevent backspin, because the max speed will often be reached.

[RandyT]

You are getting confused betwen USB 1.1, USB 2.0 and low speed USB vs full speed USB.
A device does not need to be USB 2.0 to overcome the in-built Windows poll rate. It needs to be full-speed USB rather then low-speed USB.
Full speed USB devices work perfectly well with USB 1.1. There is no compatibility issue at all.

Not at all.  As a matter of practicality, most decent full-speed chip offerings today are USB 2.0 based.

It is correct that the high resolution of the spinner brings benefits which is why we went with 1000 pulses on the original SpinTrak, the first high-res spinner on the market....

Actually, the first high res spinner was the original TurboTwist.  It was doing full Arkanoid resolution before Ultimarc even had an offering....

[Derrick Renaud]

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

They are two different things but integrally related when the spinner is such a hi resolution it polls at a rate higher than MOST Mame games it effectively makes it the same issue

Hopefully you do know that I have more then a passing knowledge of MAME's input code, as I helped write some of it.  And I know something about how arcade hardware works.  But you are entitled to your opinion of why backspin happens, so let me run these numbers by you.

Say a mouse interface is 8-bit and not the newer 16-bit.  This means it can update at max +127/-128 each poll.  Windows is locked at 125Hz.  The spinner has a 1200 per revolution rate.  That gives us:

127*125/1200 = 13.2 turns per second or *60 for 793 RPM.  Do you really think you can spin it that quick to make a high resolution spinner overflow?  Maybe, just a small maybe, you could get enough acceleration at the start of the spin to overflow for a few samples.  But you would really have to be trying and it would not happen in any regular game play.

So hopefully that backs up my original statement.  I am not trying to win the argument, just trying to clear up the multiple issues that cause backspin.

If you adjust the MAME analog sensitivity so it scales the hires spinner to the same counts per revolution (PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT in MAME code) as the original game's control, then using a Hires Spinner locked at 125Hz poll rate is not the cause of the backspin.

The fault goes back to what I described in the other post:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=89658.msg944272#msg944272

Notice I also state there that 125Hz is lower then what MOST Mame games poll at.  At least the most complained about backspin issue games.  You are still confusing poll rate and the amount of accumulated data per poll.  2 completely separate things that look like the same backspin issue to a player.  Both have different fixes.  They combine like you say only when the windows poll rate is lower then the emulated games poll rate.  Which means the issue is still Windows locking the poll rate at 125Hz.  Not the fact that you are using a Hi-res spinner.  You will still have the problem with a lo-res spinner that is scaled to supply the proper full turn count.

Now I just have to get off my lazy a** and code my described fix.  Which I stated should help but is no replacement for getting the poll rate to 500Hz.

BTW, just so you know where the 6% sensitivity comes from for Tempest.  Tempest has a PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT of 72, meaning the original control and interface supplied 72 counts per 1 full turn.  To use a 1200 count spinner we need to do 72/1200=0.06 or 6%.  It's mathematical magic.   

[Derrick Renaud]

This is never an issue with full-speed USB as we can have a 16 bit packet which will never max out, even with the standard poll rate. But the icing on the cake is we can increase the poll rate in the device as well without any Windows tweaks.

Andy, have you tried the mouserate program available here: http://mas0ne.servegame.com/mousepolling_rate_vista?

Can you test your interfaces on Vista64 SP1 with it and confirm you get faster then 125Hz?  You should also be able to test on an unpatched XP.

The opti-pac is not locked, but even on XP, you can not use it faster then 125Hz without patching the poll rate with one of the hacking programs available.

I understand what you are saying that your devices are not locked, but that does not mean that you can use them at a faster rate then Microsoft has decided to allow you to.

I would not doubt that MS deliberately does this, so other vender's can sell their mice with drivers that magically allow higher poll rates when they pay for driver signing.

[Bender]

Also don't confuse poll rate and hi-res spinners.  They are 2 different issues.  You do not need a high poll rate to use a Hi-res spinner.  Just adjust MAME's analog sensitivity.  It will work fine in arcade games that do not have a poll rate higher then your current spinner poll rate.

They are two different things but integrally related when the spinner is such a hi resolution it polls at a rate higher than MOST Mame games it effectively makes it the same issue

Hopefully you do know that I have more then a passing knowledge of MAME's input code, as I helped write some of it.  And I know something about how arcade hardware works.  But you are entitled to your opinion of why backspin happens, so let me run these numbers by you.

Say a mouse interface is 8-bit and not the newer 16-bit.  This means it can update at max +127/-128 each poll.  Windows is locked at 125Hz.  The spinner has a 1200 per revolution rate.  That gives us:

127*125/1200 = 13.2 turns per second or *60 for 793 RPM.  Do you really think you can spin it that quick to make a high resolution spinner overflow?  Maybe, just a small maybe, you could get enough acceleration at the start of the spin to overflow for a few samples.  But you would really have to be trying and it would not happen in any regular game play.

So hopefully that backs up my original statement.  I am not trying to win the argument, just trying to clear up the multiple issues that cause backspin.

If you adjust the MAME analog sensitivity so it scales the hires spinner to the same counts per revolution (PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT in MAME code) as the original game's control, then using a Hires Spinner locked at 125Hz poll rate is not the cause of the backspin.

The fault goes back to what I described in the other post:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=89658.msg944272#msg944272

Notice I also state there that 125Hz is lower then what MOST Mame games poll at.  At least the most complained about backspin issue games.  You are still confusing poll rate and the amount of accumulated data per poll.  2 completely separate things that look like the same backspin issue to a player.  Both have different fixes.  They combine like you say only when the windows poll rate is lower then the emulated games poll rate.  Which means the issue is still Windows locking the poll rate at 125Hz.  Not the fact that you are using a Hi-res spinner.  You will still have the problem with a lo-res spinner that is scaled to supply the proper full turn count.

Now I just have to get off my lazy a** and code my described fix.  Which I stated should help but is no replacement for getting the poll rate to 500Hz.

BTW, just so you know where the 6% sensitivity comes from for Tempest.  Tempest has a PORT_FULL_TURN_COUNT of 72, meaning the original control and interface supplied 72 counts per 1 full turn.  To use a 1200 count spinner we need to do 72/1200=0.06 or 6%.  It's mathematical magic.   

First of all Thank you for your work on Mame
and for the informative debate

I did do some research in all of this and was aware of the mathematical magic that got Tempest to sensitivity of 6
and thanks to your post I do have a better understanding of the situation
and like you I'm not trying to win an argument but get to the bottom of the issue

so before I patched the OS poll rate when I played tempest with the hi-res spinner and did a hard spin to move around quickly it moved in the other direction first then went the right way, is that not backspin? Maybe that is just how I play but it didn't do that in the arcade, it didn't do that with a regular resolution spinner, and it didn't do that after the poll rate was patched.

so if I understand the problem, it is that there is too much data being thrown at windows to handle at 125Hz
so if you have a regular resolution spinner wouldn't that be less data being sent, and wouldn't that explain why a standard resolution spinner works fine under the 125Hz windows standard?

Hence my issue with the Hi-Res spinners

and now after reading Randy's post I can see if your using it as a steering wheel where the Hi-Res would be an advantage
although I don't agree with the first part in practice (I understand it in theory) Arkinoid works fine for me with a regular resolution spinner

[RandyT]

so if you have a regular resolution spinner wouldn't that be less data being sent, and wouldn't that explain why a standard resolution spinner works fine under the 125Hz windows standard?

Hence my issue with the Hi-Res spinners

and now after reading Randy's post I can see if your using it as a steering wheel where the Hi-Res would be an advantage

I think the biggest misconception is that you believe there is a "standard resolution spinner".  Before SlikStik and Apache decided to make theirs, OSCAR controls had several different varieties with different resolutions. Before that, folks were hacking mice with whatever they could muster.  And long before that, each arcade manufacturer decided upon a specific piece of hardware and decoding method to do what they wanted for a particular game.  The only way to support all of the games well, which most want to do because A) good spinners aren't cheap, and B) there are only so many games that support their use, is to have a resolution that is high enough to feed the proper amount of data to the game based on original requirements, optionally taking knob size variations into consideration.

Derrick is stating that some games, like the very popular Tempest, have hardware that is significantly different enough that backspin is still far more likely than it would be otherwise due to the way it collects data.  He has a very interesting solution to the situation, that will hopefully help other titles with similar hardware.  Centipede has never played well, something like a trackball emulating joystick input, and I would love to see if this approach helps to fix the long standing issue.

And if all you got out of the explanation I posted earlier is that "Hi Res is only an advantage as a steering wheel" (paraphrased), then I apparently failed to explain it well enough.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

Bender has been wrestling with the TT-HL's incompatibility with his 64 bit OS.

It works fine, so apparently it's not incompatible.  And the solution is not an "OS patch".  It's just a piece of software that the crazy 64-bit MS OS makes you jump through a few more hoops in order to use.  Lot of folks on the web have been using it and do so without crippling their systems.  Stuff happens, but not all of the time, and not to everyone.

No doubt we'll see USB 2.0 versions of the TT2 and TT-HL in the future.

Unlikely.  As I have already stated in a different thread, I won't sacrifice compatibility with the huge number of USB 1.1 systems out there in order to accommodate the relatively microscopic number of 64 bit users in this market, especially when a widely used software solution exists which can actually outperform the "out of the box 2.0 only" approach.

RandyT

My understanding was the USB 2.0 is backwards compatible with USB 1.1 in that if you plug a USB 2.0 device in to a USB 1.1 hub or port that the USB 2.0 device will act like a USB 1.1 device?   How is including USB 2.0 compatibility sacrificing compatibility if this is the case?

[Derrick Renaud]

so if I understand the problem, it is that there is too much data being thrown at windows to handle at 125Hz
so if you have a regular resolution spinner wouldn't that be less data being sent, and wouldn't that explain why a standard resolution spinner works fine under the 125Hz windows standard?

A hi-res and lo-les spinner should both have the same issue with windows locked at 125Hz.  But you have to remember, they both have to be scaled so they turn at the same full turn count rate as the original game.  Let's stick with Tempest.  We know that a 1200 count hi-res is 300 optical counts times the 4 edges counted by the IC.  And that it should be set to a MAME analog sensitivity of 6% to match the 72 count of the real game control.

A lo-res spinner has 24 optical counts.  I'm sure there are others, but let just use this as an example.  Now we times this by 4 edges counted by the IC.  This gives a resolution of 96.  So 72/96 = .75 or 75% MAME analog sensitivity.

Both spinners should now have the same backspin when locked at 125Hz poll rate.  Remember as I have previously shown, the Hi-Res 1200 count spinner will not overflow at 125Hz until you manage to spin it over 13 revolutions per second.  Good luck trying.

The problem here is realizing that there is the windows poll rate and the original game's poll rate.  The supplied windows polled data is scaled by the MAME sensitivity before it is polled by the emulated game.  So if both hi and lo res spinners are set as I described, and both spinners are polling at the windows 125Hz rate, and you spin both the same, then the emulated game receives identical data.  Except the movement/data will be smoother with the hi-res spinner.

The problem is 125Hz is half of the game's poll rate.  And as the game only uses a 4-bit counter, it will easily overflow because the game receives a value of 0 for the first poll, because windows has not supplied new data.  Then the game receives the total of 2 of it's expected polls at it's next poll.  So in effect the game can accept a change of 15 on each of it's polls before it rolls over, but windows is limiting this to 7.  Sorry I can't explain it any simpler then that.

Actually I think I might be beginning to understand why people think lo-res is better for not having backspin.  I think people are taking their 96 resolution spinners and setting the MAME analog sensitivity to 25% or so and saying, "Hey, now it does not backspin.  I fixed it!"

That is not the case.  If you are setting it to anything lower then 75%, you are in effect gearing the spinner down.  At 25%, you are now spinning the control 1/3 the speed of the original control and not moving as fast as the real control would spin.  If you set the 1200 hi-res spinner to 2%, they would now both be behaving the same again.  But you did not fix the backspin issue.  You are only masking it by turning slower.

Lets put this another way.  If you hack the ROMs in the original game, tell it to always use a data of 0 for the first sample and then use the accumulated value of 2 samples for the second sample, then the original game (not emulated) would have the same backspin issue as we are seeing in an emulated game with a poll rate of 125Hz.

Someone is going to have filter all the info I've supplied in the 3 different spinner topics where we have been discussing this issue and turn it into readable lay-english for the wiki.   

D.

[RandyT]

My understanding was the USB 2.0 is backwards compatible with USB 1.1 in that if you plug a USB 2.0 device in to a USB 1.1 hub or port that the USB 2.0 device will act like a USB 1.1 device?   How is including USB 2.0 compatibility sacrificing compatibility if this is the case?

This is not always true.  I have seen instances of where even the *backward* compatibility of some 2.0 systems has not worked as expected, and required a change in the firmware to accommodate it, where that same device worked flawlessly on a 1.1 system. 

One might be able to get around things by using a 2.0 hub on a 1.1 system and let the hub do the re-negotiations, but at that point, you might as well install a new USB card.

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

BTW, to diverge a little, the whole optical encoder (tooth) count being counted on each of the 4 edges by modern encoder ICs is the reason most trackballs need to be scaled using a MAME analog sensitivity of 25%.

If your trackball is the same size as the original trackball and has the standard 24 teeth, then it needs to be scaled to 25%.

D.

[RandyT]

BTW, to diverge a little, the whole optical encoder (tooth) count being counted on each of the 4 edges by modern encoder ICs is the reason most trackballs need to be scaled using a MAME analog sensitivity of 25%.

If your trackball is the same size as the original trackball and has the standard 24 teeth, then it needs to be scaled to 25%.

Interesting.  Someone should probably tweak that one somehow as well.  Regular 24 tooth trackballs are poor when you try to use them as a mouse because they go so slow.  This makes upping the hardware resolution very attractive, which would require lower sensitivity settings.  And one thing MAME lacks severely, is tweakability at the low end of the sensitivity scale.  How about adding some tenths to the sensitivity settings?  Not very useful at the +100 levels, but very useful below.

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

Some final thoughts/rant.  The goal of all this is to get your arcade control to behave as close as possible to the original control.  If you believe that lo-res is close enough, then I have a VHS player in the basement you can have as trade for your DVD player.   

Seriously, if you play and like Arkanoid (and other games), you can not use a low res spinner.  There is no way you can master hitting the ball on the paddle exactly where you want.  A lo-res spinner just will not move in single pixel increments across the screen unless you are turning it further then the original control.  Thereby not getting the original experience of the game.  Which really is the goal of this forum.

There is no way you can play Clowns and similar potentiometer based games with a low-res control for the same reason.  Even Tempest is noticeably better with a hi-res spinner.

CD audio is sampled at 2x your hearing range for a reason.  Your control should be either 100% the same resolution or at least 2x more then the original.  96 lo-res is not 2x the Tempest 72.  Just like the emulated poll rate should be 2x the fastest game game poll rate.  Which is why I recommend 500Hz.

Knob diameter also has an effect on the game experience, but you should not adjust the full turn count/MAME analog sensitivity to compensate.  You really need a knob close to the diameter as the original game if it bothers you.  I allways find myself grasping the knob to turn on slow parts of a game or games like Clowns/Arkanoid.  Then I find myself rolling my thumb against the edge of the knob during faster gameplay.  The only way you can have both is with the original full turn count and a similar sizes knob, or get used to play with the new knob.

Just a disclaimer... I have no interest in selling hi-res spinners.  I am just stating my opinion based on my emulation experience.

[Derrick Renaud]

And one thing MAME lacks severely, is tweakability at the low end of the sensitivity scale.  How about adding some tenths to the sensitivity settings?  Not very useful at the +100 levels, but very useful below.

Thought about it but it would be a hard sell to the rest of the team.  It would involve increasing the values from the current single byte.  Then you would also need to modify the UI to add direct entry of the value.  It would take forever to just use arrows.  But really both should be added.  The only way to sell the change to the team would be to also add the direct numeric entry.

I also think an XML based help system should be added to the UI.  And an XML based control name override.  But now we are really getting off topic.

These are all things some bored programmer could add to MAME.  Anyone out there who does not really know anything about emulating a game, but knows how to program, up to the challenge?

Well, I'm off to look at the MAME input code.  I imagine it's changed quite a bit since I last looked at it.

[RandyT]

Thought about it but it would be a hard sell to the rest of the team.  It would involve increasing the values from the current single byte.  Then you would also need to modify the UI to add direct entry of the value.  It would take forever to just use arrows.  But really both should be added.  The only way to sell the change to the team would be to also add the direct numeric entry.

Ok, I actually typed this earlier and then erased it .

How about an "Decrease" / "Increase" toggle, that when clicked, used the full 255 (8-bit) values for each?  This would give a granularity of about .4% which is better than twice the current 1%.

No direct entry required, and it wouldn't take any longer to scroll through   

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

Andy, have you tried the mouserate program available here: http://mas0ne.servegame.com/mousepolling_rate_vista?

Can you test your interfaces on Vista64 SP1 with it and confirm you get faster then 125Hz? 

I understand what you are saying that your devices are not locked, but that does not mean that you can use them at a faster rate then Microsoft has decided to allow you to.

I would not doubt that MS deliberately does this, so other vender's can sell their mice with drivers that magically allow higher poll rates when they pay for driver signing.

Derrick, there is no need to use this program with the full-speed devices because Windows does follow the poll rate set in the device descriptor.
I can observe this on a USB bus analyzer. Its clear to see that the device is being polled at 2ms intervals as the descriptor requests.
Low speed devices always get polled at 7ms intervals no matter what the descriptor says.

Focusing on the device within Windows (as opposed to Mame where, as you mention there are other issues), I can say that during product development I have found that its very easy to max-out the 127 increment on a low speed interface with a 1200 pulse spinner. I dont disagree with your calculations but in practice it easily happens with a fairly modest spin, the kind of spin which you might do when moving from one side of the screen to the other. I think the RPM attainable is probably higher than you might think.
Using an older low-res Slikstik spinner connected to a low-speed interface its impossible to reach the maximum but with a Spintrak its easy, hence the need for increasing the poll rate, packet length (ie with a full-speed interface) or at least preventing "roll over" to a negative value.

[Derrick Renaud]

Derrick, there is no need to use this program with the full-speed devices because Windows does follow the poll rate set in the device descriptor.

The program is just an easy test program.  It does not change anything.  It would just confirm that windows is not doing anything between the USB port and when DirectX/RAWmouse gets the data.  IMO just because the analyzer says so, does not mean windows does not screw with the data and dole it out as it sees fit.

If you could just please run it and confirm that Vista64 really is outputting the 500Hz rate you have specified in the descriptor.  Thanks.  Other OSes may work fine, but Vista64 does what Vista64 wants to.

Low speed devices always get polled at 7ms intervals no matter what the descriptor says.

So then the Opti-Pac is a low speed device which is then locked to 125Hz in Vista64?

If so, do you have plans on making a version that allows a 500Hz poll rate in Vista64?

Thanks,
D.

[Bender]

ok you guys had me thinking I was crazy
as I said several times I undersand the theory, I repeat I understand the theory

I got my Apache spinner out it has only has a resolution of 48 and checked the poll rate which is 125Hz (window standard)
I set arkinoid so that one pass across the screen is between 120 and 130 degrees (mame analog sensetivity set to 20)
It works, but you are right it is just sightly choppier, but man you really have to look for it, and is certainly playable (though given I'm not an expert)
In Tempest I saw no difference at all
so I'm not crazy
I don't pretend to know the mechanics of it but it just works.

and Derrick you are right about the backspin, it is harder to get but when I set up the apache spinner in tempest, again the poll rate is 125Hz, there is backspin, never noticed it before cause it is so hard to do, unlike the Hi-res spinner before the patch

I'm not poo-pooing the Hi-res spinner at all
now that I have it fixed I'm very happy with it
I just think the regular resolution spinners (by that I mean everything under 100) are getting a bad rap
and the advantages of the hi-res spinner seem minimal (and moot to me since I don't even play arkinoid)
I was going to post some video but I think the lo-res of you tube WOULD be an issue with the video
in fact you couldn't tell the hi-res and the apache apart on video that small

[Derrick Renaud]

First it seems I must apologize to Bender, he and Andy are right.  A hi-res spinner locked by windows at 125Hz will backspin.  The numbers must lie.  Even though I can't fathom how you can spin it quicker then 13 times per second to cause backspin, it seems the initial acceleration of the spinner will overflow.

 

Also, I tried my fix, and found it won't make a difference, because it seems after the input system rewrite of around version 0117, MAME now only polls the OS at 40Hz.  It smooths out the data, like I planned, from there.

So it all goes back to the original fix.  There needs to be a way to unlock Vista64 to support 500Hz with current hardware.  But failing that, if the fix is through a piece of hardware, then so be it.

Let's see an Opti-Pac 2 or Opti-Wiz 2.

Well I'm off to setup an XP/Vista Dual boot.  Maybe I should have tried to buy XP64 instead of Vista with the new computer. 

[Derrick Renaud]

 

Well I drank a couple beers and figured it out.  Vista 64 SP1 can be patched to do 500/1000 Hz.

The hidusbf mentioned here did not work for me.  So I mixed and matched some stuff on the net and came up with this hopefully easy to follow guide.

Download dseo12.exe, mouserate.exe and dimr.exe from here.

dimr & mouserate both do the same thing.  They show the mouse poll rate.  Try both and see which you prefer.

Download the "Vista USB Poolrate.7z" USB driver from here.

Download RemoveWatermark_20090117.zip.

Then follow these directions:

1. Copy dseo12.exe to the desktop.  Trust me, you'll want it there when you lock up your mouse.

2. Copy the usbport.sys file for the refresh rate you want to c:\

3. Run dseo12.exe and Enable Test Mode.

4. Restart the computer, press F8 repeatidly while booting to get to the boot menu. Run Safe Command Prompt mode.

5. You will probably be in the c:\windows\system32 directory so type "cd drivers".  Make sure you are at the c:\windows\system32\drivers prompt.

6. execute this command:   takeown /f usbport.sys

7. execute this command:   cacls usbport.sys /G username:F

** Replace username with your username.  Use quotes around it if your name has spaces in it.  If you have changed your original user name, for some reason you have to use the name you installed Vista with.  Can't remember?  Check c:\users - there will be a directory there with the name you need.

5. You should still be in the c:\windows\system32\drivers directory.
   execute this command:   ren usbport.sys usbport.old

6. execute this command:   copy c:\usbport.sys

7. Ctrl-Alt-Delete.  Lower right corner - Restart Windows

8. What the hey?? No mouse.  Hit Alt-Tab to select the desktop.  Use the arrows to select dseo12.exe that you put on the desktop.  Enter to run it.  Navigate with Tab and arrows as needed to finally select "Sign a system file".  Tab to select "Next" then enter.  Type "c:\windows\system32\drivers\usbport.sys" and then enter.  Now restart the computer from the windows key.  You don't need to close the program.

9. Your mouse now works.  Run mouserate.exe and/or dimr.exe to verify that you now have a 500/1000Hz polling rate.

10. Yes, it now says Test mode on your screen,  Get over it.  Or run removeWatermark_20090117.

[Bender]

 

I can't seem to download the file though

[Derrick Renaud]

I can't seem to download the file though

Hmmm.. I don't know what to do.  I tried shrinking the file and re-naming it but you are right, it will not download.  One of those days where nothing is working right.

Give me a few minutes and I will put links to the original files.

OK. I modified the post using links to the files.  Not as easy but it is all there.

[Derrick Renaud]

To finish up this mess....

XP users have a much easier time switching their poll rate.  Just go here.

[RandyT]

Congrats, Derrick.  I had a feeling you would get it working eventually.  It even looks like you found a unique way to get it done.  Too bad there isn't some way to automate the steps...I'm guessing Vista makes something like that impossible.

Great job  and thanks loads for doing the step by step.  I'm sure it will be plenty appreciated by those adopting Vista x64.

RandyT

[RandyT]

I got my Apache spinner out it has only has a resolution of 48 and checked the poll rate which is 125Hz (window standard)
I set arkinoid so that one pass across the screen is between 120 and 130 degrees (mame analog sensetivity set to 20)
It works, but you are right it is just sightly choppier, but man you really have to look for it, and is certainly playable (though given I'm not an expert)
In Tempest I saw no difference at all
so I'm not crazy
I don't pretend to know the mechanics of it but it just works.

Bender, I know you say you don't care much for the Arkanoid games, or those similar to it, but trust me when I say that they are big reasons why people opt to get spinners in the first place.  I would estimate that at minimum, 70% of the folks who buy them, want realistic gameplay for those types of titles (and others, of course.)  Tempest has very low requirements, which is why you need to crank the sensitivity all the way down to 6 for the TurboTwist 2 / High-Low.  So I absolutely agree that if folks are looking primarily to play that game, and / or those with similarly low requirements, then find a good deal on one of the older tech models and enjoy. 

But understand that cutting the possible paddle positions to almost 1/3 of those available in Arkanoid, will severely impact playability.  The ball bounces off that paddle in different directions based on where it strikes it, and if you don't have fine control, you can't always put that ball where you want it to go.  It's more than just a visual choppiness issue.  When you play other games, for instance one like Avalanche, where the paddle and the falling objects get increasingly smaller as the game progresses, this precision becomes even more important.

BTW, with that low res spinner, you should have been looking at a sensitivity of about 244, but you said 20 above.  Was that a typo?


RandyT

[AndyWarne]

My understanding was the USB 2.0 is backwards compatible with USB 1.1 in that if you plug a USB 2.0 device in to a USB 1.1 hub or port that the USB 2.0 device will act like a USB 1.1 device?   How is including USB 2.0 compatibility sacrificing compatibility if this is the case?

This is not always true.  I have seen instances of where even the *backward* compatibility of some 2.0 systems has not worked as expected, and required a change in the firmware to accommodate it, where that same device worked flawlessly on a 1.1 system. 

One might be able to get around things by using a 2.0 hub on a 1.1 system and let the hub do the re-negotiations, but at that point, you might as well install a new USB card.

I think you are still getting confused. Full Speed USB is not specific to USB 2.0. This was in the original USB 1.1 standard. There is no compatibility issue.

A device which runs only FS USB is not any different between USB 1.1 and USB 2.0. The device only becomes different when its capable of running High Speed USB which is specific to USB 2.0

Don't take my word for it, check the USB 2.0 spec. Page 122, table 7.1:

Low-/full-speed Driver:  The low-/full-speed driver is used for low-speed and full-speed transmission. It
is required to meet all specifications called out in USB 1.1 for low-speed and fullspeed
operation.

The possible compatibility issues you are referring to might be from devices which are capable of running High Speed USB (480 Mb/s) and are not working properly on a 1.1 host which cannot run High Speed USB. This is not relevant on a device which only runs Full Speed USB (12 Mb/s) or Low Speed USB (1.5 Mb/s).
There is no more likelihood of a Full Speed device being incompatible with a USB 1.1 host than a Low Speed device.

[AndyWarne]

If you could just please run it and confirm that Vista64 really is outputting the 500Hz rate you have specified in the descriptor.  Thanks.  Other OSes may work fine, but Vista64 does what Vista64 wants to.

Screenshot:



Our full-speed devices include:
I-PAC 2
trackball interface
spinner interface
U-HID
U-HID nano

The Opti-PAC is low-speed as we have not updated it owing to serial compatibility. We plan to discontinue serial support in a couple of months as we hardly ever get asked for it, then it will be full-speed.

Andy

[RandyT]

I think you are still getting confused. Full Speed USB is not specific to USB 2.0. This was in the original USB 1.1 standard. There is no compatibility issue.

A device which runs only FS USB is not any different between USB 1.1 and USB 2.0. The device only becomes different when its capable of running High Speed USB which is specific to USB 2.0

Don't take my word for it, check the USB 2.0 spec. Page 122, table 7.1:

The spec is the spec.  Individual implementations are a different story.  How many folks here have had issue with USB encoders made for 1.1 on 1.1 machines?  It happens over and over again, when it probably shouldn't, according to the spec.

Regardless, if what you are saying is true, then you have established publicly that there is no advantage whatsoever to a "USB 2.0" spinner, and that those claims are pure "marketing fluff".  We have already established that the only functional difference with a non-high-speed device is the need to install a widely used and well tested driver on some OS's, which can yield a poll rate for that device which is twice that of the "USB 2.0 hardware"....if the user desires. 

Or, have I misunderstood?

RandyT

[Derrick Renaud]

Centipede has never played well

This has been a common complaint and I would like to hear more from owners of an actual cabinet or those that have access to one.

First thing I noticed in the code is that it internally scales to input by 4.  So even though you would normally set a trackball to 25% MAME analog sensitivity, you don't do that for Centipede.  Centipede should be at 100% if you are using the same 2.25" trackball.

What I would like to know is how the original game plays is you swap in a 3" trackball.  Would it play the same as MAME at 100% sensitivity?  At 100% Mame seems to slow/backspin if you move fast.  But regular game play is more responsive.

I know the numbers failed me on Hi-res backspin, but lets see how the numbers work for centipede.

First we can assume a 2.25 trackball would be set to 100%, so lets convert the circumference values.  2.25PI/3PI = .75 = 75% sensitivity.

Seems quite responsive for regular gameplay.  But moving the trackball fast can still cause lag.  Is this because you can more easily move a larger trackball faster? 

So i guess we need to know how the newest MAME plays with 100% sensitivity on a real Centipede 2.25 ball.  What happens when spun fast?

It would be nice to see good video of the player movement on a real machine when the player is spun quickly from one side to the other with both 2.25" and 3" trackballs.

[RandyT]

It may be time for a "Fixing Centipede Control" thread

First thing I noticed in the code is that it internally scales to input by 4.  So even though you would normally set a trackball to 25% MAME analog sensitivity, you don't do that for Centipede.  Centipede should be at 100% if you are using the same 2.25" trackball.

Let me be the first to say that most aren't using 2.25" trackballs. A sale of one is a bit of an anomaly for us.  If a builder has space for a 3-incher (and they aren't much larger than the 2.25", BTW) in it goes.

So this is probably significant.

First we can assume a 2.25 trackball would be set to 100%, so lets convert the circumference values.  2.25PI/3PI = .75 = 75% sensitivity.

I don't have an original Atari 2.25" unit in front of me, but I can tell you that it may not be that straight-forward.  The Imperial variety  2.25", which I will assume is the same for "parts swapping" reasons, has a different diameter roller internally.  It is 1/16" larger in diameter, which means that the action is geared down even further than just as a result of the smaller ball.  Exactly the opposite action one would expect.

Seems quite responsive for regular gameplay.  But moving the trackball fast can still cause lag.  Is this because you can more easily move a larger trackball faster? 

Quite possible, but I'm not sure that is the issue.  I used to play a fair bit of Centipede "in the day" and recall a much more "real-time" feel.  Pretty much like a mouse pointer.  Moving from one side of the screen to the other is normally very fast, and necessary to play the game well.  For some reason, when trying to do this in MAME, I recall it being more of a "capped speed" sensation, where the maximum wasn't sufficient.

So i guess we need to know how MAME plays with 100% sensitivity on a real Centipede 2.25 ball.  What happens when spun fast?

It would be nice to see good video of the player movement on a real machine when the player is spun quickly from one side to the other with both 2.25" and 3" trackballs.

I'll see what I can do about the 2.25" test, but here's one that I was able to pretty much verify wasn't a video of someone playing MAME.  Something which is difficult to do when searching.  It seems to have a "snappiness" in movement that differentiates it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbM2XaR3tXQ[/youtube]

[Derrick Renaud]

It may be time for a "Fixing Centipede Control" thread

First we can assume a 2.25 trackball would be set to 100%, so lets convert the circumference values.  2.25PI/3PI = .75 = 75% sensitivity.

I don't have an original Atari 2.25" unit in front of me, but I can tell you that it may not be that straight-forward.  The Imperial variety 2.25", which I will assume is the same for "parts swapping" reasons, has a different diameter roller internally.  It is 1/16" larger in diameter, which means that the action is geared down even further than just as a result of the smaller ball.  Exactly the opposite action one would expect.

Good point.

Thanks for the video.  That actually shows the problem quite well.  I had youtubed up a few videos, but no one was moving their player around as fast as that.  So then yes, it looks like Mame has a problem.  So I don't really need to see any other video.

I'll see if I can do anything.  But from first look at the code, it seems that the trackball port handling should be OK.  And the port is read from the CPU directly, so maybe an IRQ issue or  , but I'll look.

[Morpheus]

I read this whole thread, but I still have two questions. Which spinner is better? or are they both good products?  Could people who have on or the other (Or both) just give their experience with their spinner...

Thanks!

[RandyT]

I might as well add something to this thread now that it has re-surfaced.  As a result of the discussion with Derrick about how MAME handles input, the TurboTwist 2, High-Low, EIectric ICE Trackball and all other optical interfaces shipping from GGG are now backspin-free, with no changes whatsoever required by the user to the OS.  In order to maintain the high-speed polling of the optical sensors, I opted against having this as a user-configurable option.  It is automatically disabled by systems with higher poll rates enabled anyway.

Based on the way MAME deals with input now, capping the outputs has a practical zero negative effect, and high polling rates have a practical zero positive effect.  An 8ms poll rate at +/-127 position offsets is extremely fast movement (about 13 revolutions per second before backspin would occur!), and is impossible to maintain by a human hand or ever be an issue while playing.  The only time an overflow would really come into play is at the moment of initial acceleration when one really tried to "flick" the knob to spin it fast.   Derrick has been telling me, if I am understanding correctly, that MAME doesn't actually poll the hardware but once every 16ms, or once per frame refresh. In cases where the original hardware expects smaller chunks of data to be received more frequently, MAME then divides up the movement data it received at the last poll and then uses a sort of smoothing algorithm to feed the data to the original code at a rate it would expect.  It should also be noted that there is no way for any spinner interface to prevent backspin at the level of the actual game.   This is strictly a function of the interaction between MAME, the OS and the original game code / hardware emulation.  In other words, if you could make the original game backspin, as you could with Tempest, then you would be able to do it no matter which spinner you used.  Otherwise, you would not have true emulation.

So the short of it is that, once the outputs are capped to prevent overflow at the initial moment of inertia when spun rapidly, extremely high poll rates are of questionable benefit.  But upping the poll rate in the OS is still an option and will make it so the capping never kicks in, if one so desires.

RandyT