Original graphics Vs. Improved graphics.

[TOK]

Its still in the 40's out in my garage, and thats where the cab with the LCD monitor and my JAMMA cab are at the moment. Don't want to fire them up when its that cold. Here is a DK shot on a PC monitor... Other than being mounted horizontally which really shrinks the screen down, it doesn't bother me even slightly to play the game looking like this.

[Ummon]

Its still in the 40's out in my garage, and thats where the cab with the LCD monitor and my JAMMA cab are at the moment. Don't want to fire them up when its that cold. Here is a DK shot on a PC monitor... Other than being mounted horizontally which really shrinks the screen down, it doesn't bother me even slightly to play the game looking like this.

At what resolution?

Hey, you came round.

A while ago, actually. We'd had a conversation where I said that I saw what you meant this whole time.

Hm. I don't recall. Cool, either way.

I'm hoping my monitor will die soon, though, so I can buy a TV instead

Ahuh - I see.

[RandyT]

TOK appears to have a crappy PC monitor which makes classic games look pretty good! 

Some of the old VGA monitors had some pretty coarse dot pitches, and would be good candidates for a cabinet.  Probably not too many of them left in good shape, but nearly free if you can find them.

I know that's probably not the case, mainly because it's harder to see the corners with an up close shot like that.  Shrink it down to something more like true size, and the corners get easier to see.  Still not that bad though.

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

Just for fun I'll post this pic.




I could never get a pic that wasn't blurred due to my poor photography skills. 

This is Donkey Kong running on a 37" presentation monitor in 254x240.  The dot pitch on this monitor is .7 mm, or the same as an older arcade monitor.  And the shadow mask is of a triad type.  So the image is practically identical to the dedicated cab, just bigger.  I have actually rotated this monitor and played on it while sitting a couple of feet in front of it.  Dk is a very different game when you actually have to move your head up to see what is happening at the top of a level!

  To me, the size of the image is as important as the resolution.  I used to always lust after these giant monitors, but after the experience of playing different games on them I find that for most stuff they are just too big. 

Kong indeed!

[Xiaou2]

Donkey Kong isnt exactly the best example.  The game is designed without any real
shading - with exception to the barrel flames.  Its very Pixel-esc on purpose... where
as some other game try to smooth and shade things a bit better.

 Many artists capitalized on the blending feature.  Nintendo just seemed to keep
things as simple as possible graphically. (cartoony)

[Valken]

Here are two pics of my bartop cab running mame


lcd 19"  1280X1024 , aperture mres, 2X Sal

... maybe  not 100% authentic, but i like the way it looks

[TOK]

The computer monitor is about 5 years old, same age as the MAME cab. I'm running at 640x480.
Its a 19" Samsung flat screen.

The game looks much more "solid" than it appears in that pic compared to an actual arcade monitor. That was way zoomed in on it. I did pics of Time Pilot as well, but some got an odd moire pattern in them.

[Ummon]

The computer monitor is about 5 years old, same age as the MAME cab. I'm running at 640x480.
Its a 19" Samsung flat screen.

That's what I figured, as it seemed there were hardware scanlines, which happens on those at that res.

Here are two pics of my bartop cab running mame


lcd 19"  1280X1024 , aperture mres, 2X Sal

... maybe  not 100% authentic, but i like the way it looks

That Ghosts and Goblins looks good...although I think the real test is golden age games where the background is mainly black (no graphics).

EDIT: actually, no that's the test for LCDs. Fully saturated screen is a test of effects for dimming, etc. Looks good.

[retrometro]

I'll add to the scaled vs native resolution orgy that is this thread...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjKLq-LMgjM[/youtube]

[ViciousXUSMC]

I'll add to the scaled vs native resolution orgy that is this thread...

*snip*

The cake is a lie.

[Ummon]

Hey, Valken, where'd you get that effect? I thought it was part of the suite with Mameplus, but I can't find it anymore.

[Valken]

You're right, Ummon: it's MAME PLUS! (0.129u1).

Go to "options" tab, than "advanced", "image enhancement" and select "2XSal" effect. That's all.

[Ummon]

OHHH. I forgot about that option. Thanks.


....ohhh. I see. It's not in mamepgui (standalone gui), but in mamepui (which comes with mame plus binary). Not as flashy as the gui, but I wonder if the pui will work with other binaries....

[Barry Barcrest]

I was thinking about this, wouldn't how the monitor is mounted also effect the look. Because of how each line is drawn the blending from the shadowmask would create a slightly different look on the same game on the same monitor depending if it was vertical or horizontal.

[Xiaou2]

Yes it does.  The mask is not perfectly squared, so when rotated, it
appears slightly different.

 Btw - dues-ex,  your email box is full.

[Xiaou2]

 An Interesting Find:

The shadow mask is usually an invar mask (64% iron & 36% nickel) which is a thin plate with small holes punched in it. Only about 20-30% of the electron beam actually passes through the holes in the mask and hits the screen phosphor, so the rest of the energy is dissipated as heat from the mask.

 As a result, shadow mask monitors are prone to colour purity problems as they heat up due to slight shifts in the position of the holes relative to the phosphor dots.

-----

 Doming is a phenomenon found on some CRT
Cathode ray tube

The shadow mask is one of two major technologies used to manufacture cathode ray tube televisions and computer displays that produce color images.... become heated.

In televisions that exhibit this behavior, it tends to occur in high-contrast scenes in which there is a largely dark scene with one or more localized bright spots. As the electron beam hits the shadow mask in these areas it heats unevenly. The shadow mask warps due to the heat differences, which causes the electron gun to hit the wrong colored phosphors and incorrect colors to be displayed in the affected area.

-----

During the display of bright images, a shadow mask will heat up, and expand outward in all directions (sometimes called blooming). Aperture Grilles do not exhibit this behavior - when the wires heat up, they expand vertically. Because there are no defined holes, this expansion does not affect the image, and the wires do not move horizontally.

-----

Traditionally, shadow masks have been made of materials which temperature variations can cause expansion and contraction to the point of affecting performance. The energy the shadow mask absorbs from the electron gun in normal operation causes it to heat up and expand, which leads to blurred or discolored (see doming
Doming (television)

Doming is a phenomenon found on some cathode ray tube televisions in which parts of the shadow mask become heated....
) images. The invar shadow mask, which is composed of the nickel-iron alloy invar
Invar

Invar, also called FeNi, is an alloy of iron and nickel with some carbon and chromium. This alloy is known worldwide for its unique properties of controlled coefficient of thermal expansion....
, expands and contracts much less than other materials in response to temperature changes. This property allows displays made with this technology to provide a clearer, more accurate picture. It also reduces the amount of long-term stress and damage to the shadow mask that can result from repeated expand/contract cycles, thus increasing the display's life expectancy.

[Ginsu Victim]

Interesting. Thanks for that.

[RandyT]

As a result, shadow mask monitors are prone to colour purity problems as they heat up due to slight shifts in the position of the holes relative to the phosphor dots.

This is why you always want to leave a monitor on for an hour or so before you adjust it.  And since it needs to be adjusted when warm, it's also the reason why it may not look all that great when you first turn it on.

On another note, I have heard today while speaking to a supplier that most of the tube factories have ceased production, so it's going to start to get more difficult to get tubes from retail sources.  There will be plenty around for a long time to come, but the simplicity of purchasing a brand new one is likely about to become a thing of the past. 

Get em while  you can (if you want one, that is.)

RandyT

[Jack Burton]

Man I'm such a nerd for this stuff.

These are images from my favorite monitor that I own.  It is a Sony Trinitron 1251Q.  I think it was originally used for broadcast or filmmaking purposes, but now it is my vertical MAME monitor.   

I post this info and pics because I think this is also an interesting case of original vs. improved graphics.  You see, this monitor is perfectly capable of running 15khz modes and thus arcade games in their native resolution. 

But the dot pitch on these kinds of monitors are often finer than a real arcade monitor, or of the stripe pitch instead of triad type.  Some of them have aperature grills or different types of shadowmasks.

In most peoples opinions they would be classified as superior display devices compared to an arcade monitor, even receiving the exact same signal.  But that is up to your interpretation of what looks good, hence this post.

Pics of Turbo and Donkey Kong of course since they seem to have elected as universal subjects.



Turbo definitely feels like it has some depth and the road looks like it has a little bit of texture on it.  But the colors of the cars do not mix at all and I see Xiaou2's point that there is no way an artist wanted the game to look like that unless he was on acid.



But I must say that I really love the razor sharp pixel look on these monitors when a game is in it's native res.



These buildings are blue and have little sense of texture to them.  The blurriness of my photography actually helps the image here.  In real life they look flatter.



DK looks GOOD.  Maybe it's just because I've never played a good looking DK in the wild, but when the contrast and brightness are turned correctly this game really shines on this monitor.  I have it turned down a little bit here so my camera can capture it and show the pxiesls, but when I have the monitor adjusted to my liking there is a little bit of a glow that rounds off all the sharp edges and makes this game look great.



My camera had a hard time capturing the blue ladders.  In real life the scanlines running through them are very visible and make a huge difference compared to a high-res display that doesn't have them. 



Donkey Kong scanlines go up and down!

[Level42]

Trinitrons use different shadow masks. Since you positioned it vertically it really shows in the lines going through the pictures (look DK close-ups).   I don't like Trinitron. It's personal taste. They're great for computer monitors (if CRT's are still your thing for that) but I never liked the colors on TV's.
I also hated the extra wire(s) running through the screen. Those are totally irritating on bright (white) screens.

Still, I'd prefer a Trinitron over a LCD any day.

Nothing but CRT's till I die for my games. You don't put an electrical engine in a steam locomotive.

Plenty of TV's thrown away all around, get CRT's while you can

[Xiaou2]

 Donkey Kong is still a very bad example.  The only thing that uses shading is the
fire in the oil barrel... and you didnt take a pic of that.  The rest of the game is
drawn like a flat cartoon.

 That is like trying to compare a hand drawn animae on a regular tv  -vs-  hdtv.
There wont be much difference.  Now, compare standard film  on the two formats,
(dvd -vs- blueray)  and the differnces are Huge.

 Furthermore, the pic of the DK arcade machine was with what dot pitch
monitor?  Is it the same dot pitch as it was shipped out from the factory with?

 I believe it will be harder and harder to know what these games were supposed
to look like, because the original monitors were long replaced with new monitors
that have superior shadowmasks with higher dot pitch, thinner lines..etc.

 Still, you can see the color blending is much better in the fire on the arcade monitor
than on anything else shown.

 And yes... Sonys use Aperture grills for the Shadow Masks.  They only have vertical
wires... rather than an actual screen like grill of a typical shadowmask.  This changes
the overall effect seen.  But more than that, its simply the dot pitch that is limiting the
desired effects.  The finer the dot pitch, the lesser the effects seen... unless heavily
magnified.

[Silverwind]

I prefer original graphics.  That is why I bought a betson 27" arcade monitor.  Love the classic look.

[genesim]

The problem then is the same problem I have now with this whole discussion.

The arguement is how to accurately render the original code!   If something looks more pleaseing...that doesn't necessarily make it better.

What is going to be the future if anyone cares to do it, is to have more accurate representation of the original scan lines and emulation of the original screens.

Then you don't have to go digging up your landfills or wasting time with that perfect CRT representation...which of course is a distortion of the original code also.   Artist intepretation is theory at best.   

I outlined this a long time ago and it is no less true then it is now.

With proper software you can get a close approximation of the original source...with further software you can also get a closer approximation then having to go with said compromise of a monitor that is closer to the source display.

The problem is that people saying..."I must have that one!!" slows the obvious conclusion down.

Still religion is a persistent things and arguing logic with a belief is a lesson in futility.  Yet...genesim keeps coming up. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Heee's baaaaack ! 

[genesim]

And you have the record for the most time mentioning me.  It is only fitting that you would be the first to respond.  Love my groupie. 

Hell, I even see that you accuse others of being me.   You wish so hard for the real thing, well now you finally have it. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Well, there have been three incarnations of another member who used to say silly things, insist that everybody else was wrong, call them names and then storm off in a huff, so I figured that it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility. 

[genesim]

I never did any of the things you said I did.

If I said you were wrong, then it was my opinion you were wrong.  Not the same as insisting that everyone has to be wrong...learn the difference.

Or are you of the opinion that if a group of people believe one way then they must be right?  Yeah mobs work that way.

I am not a name caller, not my style.    Though like anyone I can lose my temper, I was attacked quite a bit...for no other better reason then I disagreed.

Lastly, I stopped posting..not out of being angry but simply being busy.    Know the difference there too.  The day I stop coming to a board because of a few people that act completely out of line will be the day that I die.    The moderators of this board have acted very fair and I appreciate all the help behind the scenes in regards to the building of my arcade and ideas for future projects.   

As for you, is it really your style to accuse people of being frauds without knowing the facts?    You really have a profound sense of justice.   

Grow up!   Stop riding my coattails and learn how to be civilized.   Get your last word in, and then be done with it.   And for future reference I post only one name only GENESIM.    I don't need to have several identities to get my point across.    People like you who accuse without cause need to be banned permanantly.   The worst thing you can do to someone on a messageboard besides go after them personally is to try to take away their identity.   Even if I don't agree with you there is no way in hell I would be such a low life as that.    You should have figured it out the first time you used my name.   

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anyway.....moving on, my point was actually in relation to the topic at hand.    I recently got a Vox modeler guitar amp.    For those that don't know what that is, it is a Tube amp that emulates other amps.    It does it quite well and has about 40+ preset amps inside.   The fact that it uses Vaccum tubes make it a much closer copy of what other amps do.   Besides being a great Vox amp it also gives you rare sounds like the Trainwreck amp that precious little were made of today.

Now my question is this why can't the same kind of behavior be done for say older screens.    I know that current monitors have more then the capability with refresh rates that go beyond the originals.    It is done for film prints now with their limitations in regards to having a lower frame rate...for example LCD's that are capable of 120hz refresh rates.   So what happens is frames are repeated and it actually gives a more fluid picture...almost 3D like.

Could software achieve a purer signal along with emulating the faults of the original screens?   If done well, it could get quite close with the added benefit of not producing the faults that I know damn well the original programmers didn't program for...like the uneven colors involved with the different speeds of light and the approximation from the center beam...or the color bleeding...and of course the big problem of having glares given off by CRT..etc. etc. 

If it has already been done, then I would like to know, but someday if it hasn't, I don't think this would be a bad plan at all.

[CheffoJeffo]

Works everytime !

 

[genesim]

Anway,  like I said...I would be very interested at someone pointing out an option or if it has ever been considered.

[Malenko]

         People like you who accuse without cause need to be banned permanantly. 
    

If done well, it could get quite close with the added benefit of not producing the faults that I know damn well the original programmers didn't program for...like the uneven colors involved with the different speeds of light and the approximation from the center beam...or the color bleeding...and of course the big problem of having glares given off by CRT..etc. etc. 
      

he didnt accuse you of anything, he just said it was possible.

You dont know what the programmers did or why they did it, let alone that its a "damn well fact" ; its your opinion that they programmed for perfect displays with no uneven colors or scanlines which despite how well you stand behind your opinion is not correct.

no one is trying to take away your identity either, we all know who you are; youre the guy who preaches about intent of programmers from 25 years ago who prolly wasnt even alive 25 years ago AND also thinks CRT monitors are the bane of arcades and everythign should be LCD driven

[genesim]

Let me get this straight.   So you are saying that programmers made their code to account for color bleeding and pixel distortion from the center to the outside?

Could you please produce this "evidence"?

And yes, I was very much alive and playing video games more then 25 years ago.   And you?   


We can start from here.

[genesim]

Oh and for the record I stated that he questioned another about being me.   Please keep up.

[Ummon]

I think that Vox only has a single tube for the input stage...unless they made the power section tube, too....but then, why?

[genesim]

From what I understand the Vacuum tube(12AX7) is a dual Vacuum tube which is two tube amps in one.   It uses a Valve Reactor circuit which is 100% analog and it is the passthrough for the guitar signal which has been first modified with the digital processor.

So in effect you can get the effect of a say a tweed Fender amp from the 60's to the Marshall Stack from the 80's. 

I do not even pretend to be an expert on amplifiers(just as I am in no way an expert on arcade monitors), but I do know what I hear and judgeing from going to stores and having friends that have decent retro amps I file it under good enough for me.

The past had digital amps that in my opinion sounded like crap especially with the clean sound.    Having a true vaccuum tube amp gives a wonderful change and to me gained new ground in to what I call a cost effective measure.

It is my opinion that these same kind of ideas could be used to revolutionize the way we look at arcade games.    Save the technology, without necessarily making everyone keep the hardware.   Labor of love if you ask me.

[Xiaou2]

 What do you Think the programmers Viewed their creations on?!

Sorry man, but you are dense.


 They may have tried to map out images on graph paper to start out.. but
As they displayed images on the actual screen and noticed that things blured,
colors were changed, lines were too faint...etc.. then they had to adjust and
change the images to work well with the display technology that was used.   

 ANY good artist who does very small detailed work can tell you that this is Fact.

 And furthermore, I HAVE provided more than enough proof already.
Anyone with any sense of Logic can tell for example, that the colors and shapes
in the Turbo car were made to create a shading effect on a low-res monitor... as they
look completely different -  and look like S**T  when viewed on a modern pc monitor.
This is but one of a ton of examples you could find if you actually did some
comparative research instead of speculative BS that has NO FOUNDATION AT ALL.

 And BTW - The CRT still supersedes LCDs by miles.  In Color depth, refresh,
no scaling issues and much more.  When I got my money back for my malfunctioning
37"  1080p  LCD,   I bought a Used Sony Widescreen HDTV (1080i) CRT.
The picture is so much better its beyond comparison.  Especially on things
like consoles - which do not output at 1080.   The LCD scaling Butchered the
pictures on them.. as well as had a poor color palette.  The CRT makes them
jaw droppingly awesome.  The used CRT TV will probably last at least 10 more
years too.  The LCD lasted less than 3 and that was New.

 Its unlikely that digital LCD type displays will have high enough resolution to
ever simulate an old CRT correctly.   There is very little market for something like
that.

 Simulating it properly will take massive processing power, and a lot of egg-heads
who have a lot of free time to burn.  Its doubtful that it will happen without loads
of cash thrown at this problem.
 

[genesim]

First of all, please refrain from using personal attacks like calling me dense.   Try to show some respect ok?

Now lets get down to it.

You seemed to have missed what I said so I will state it again.   

Your "proof" doesn't even pertain to what I have written.   A CRT's image gets distorted when going to the edge of the screen vs the middle.    Explain any circumstances where a programmer changed his pixel representation to reflect this flaw.   

You can start with this point since you fail to adress any of the other things that I have said.   Its better to keep focus then to keep going on a anti-LCD rant.

Your examples have huge problems.  Namely without proper rendering with generic software/video cards.    A camera can't hardly capture advantages or disadvantages.   You see flat, I see the distortion in your CRT examples.   Both haver the pro's and cons if not using the original hardware.   Its all opinion, you can at least admit that. 

[CheffoJeffo]

First of all, please refrain from using personal attacks like calling me dense.   Try to show some respect ok?

At least he apologized for calling you dense.

 

[bboysnj]

This whole thread cracks me up; not that it's not terribly interesting (it is), but the human drama adds to the fun in a major way.   

Side note - my wife pulled up what I was looking at on the vga clone view on our tv -- she confirmed I'm a total nerd and went back to her business.  I guess she expected pron or something.      So yeah, I'm no prize.

Cheffo -- lol.  Just big lol's all around.

Geneism - don't take anything personally, and life will get a whole lot better every day bro   

Xiaou - erm, sorry, Xiaou squared?  Xiaou deux(sh?)  Man, you must have gotten your butt kicked a hell of a lot on the playground.   

[NIVO]

might be time for a judi chop

[Xiaou2]

  A Pixel does Not get distorted when displayed from the left, middle or right.

 The CRT surface is basically like a bunch of lightbulbs being lit up.  You can
mount them all flat, or on a curved surface.. and it wont matter one bit.  The
lightbulbs shape and appearance will remain the same no matter where in the
alignment it is.

 The only thing that is noticed is the reflections from the curved surface, and a
slight depth perception.   A 19"  CRT viewed at 2ft away with only a slight
round face leads very little to no Illusion related distortions.