TurboTwist Hi-Low Spinner Backspin problem. XP 64 Poll rate, Works Now!

[Bender]

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

So you actually have Vista 64 SP1 with all current updates patched to do 500Hz?  And the mouserate program confirms the higher poll rate?

If so how?

No it's XP x64 that I've got working, and yes the mouse rate program (and more importantly gameplay) does confirm the poll rate

and by the way "a little more effort" was a weeks worth of trial and error, and having to pull my hard drive 3 times to fix stuff, I almost had to reinstall the whole OS but for some great advice from another forum member

Heh, but to be honest about the situation, that was an atypical experience......glad to hear you got everything going, though.

Thanks Randy,

my one complaint, in all this, is that nowhere (that I can find) in your literature or website do you mention that you need to patch yor OS to get the Spinner working correctly, and in fact you claim it's plug and play, which IT IS NOT, it's left to the consumer to relise the problem diagnose it and search out a solution. I just think you should supply the info upfront and that would make thing a lot easier for everyone.
Just my two cents

again I have said it over and over again, you make fantastic products and are always there to help out, and I really appriciate that
just put the info out there upfront

[RandyT]

my one complaint, in all this, is that nowhere (that I can find) in your literature or website do you mention that you need to patch yor OS to get the Spinner working correctly, and in fact you claim it's plug and play, which IT IS NOT, it's left to the consumer to relise the problem diagnose it and search out a solution. I just think you should supply the info upfront and that would make thing a lot easier for everyone.

The problem here, again, is the OS, not the hardware.  This is an application specific issue.  MS didn't start locking down the poll rate until XP.  Even so, it does not "break" the spinner function, but if you do not adjust *your* operating system to accommodate your particular needs, the spinner won't do what you might expect it to.  Macs, 98SE, Windows 2000, and Linux don't appear to have the poll rate issue, and out of all of the spinners I have sold (no small number) this has been a support topic all of about 3 times, counting this as the third.  The XP polling issue, and the simple fix, is such common knowledge that it just never turns out to be anything warranting significant focus.  The x64 issue, on the other hand, is a little rougher road and the novelty of the situation is what prompted me to get involved and try to help direct you (and Frizzle, because he said he had posted about it several times in the software section without response) to some places on the web where it looked like people had figured it out.  But folks actually using a 64bit MS operating system are still in the vast, vast minority.

The major issue with "officially" pointing people to third party software is that it is impossible to directly support.  There are just too many possible combinations out there.  And all too often people consider merely the presence of those links a pretense to demand that support, especially if they decide to make the purchase based on it.  As you have seen, I'm happy to help where I can, and really enjoy doing so.  But it's difficult enough to directly support the software and products that *I* create, and quite honestly, the last thing I need is to set myself up for a situation where I am expected to support the work of others.  Especially when that support is plentiful in other places when one only takes the time and effort to look for it.

RandyT

[Bender]

Microsoft certainly didn't write your claim that the TT2 and the TTH/L are "plug and play"
I'n not saying it your fault, just be up front about the limitations under those other OS's (I think most of people on this forum are using XP)

It is simple. Say they are plug and play for Macs, 98SE, and 2000 and Linux

but because of whatever microsoft did you need to up the pollrate to get the spinner functioning correctly, in XP and VISTA  and maybe point them in the direction of the wiki on this site about the subject

As I said earlier, you leave it up to the consumer to find and fix this fault, which is bad business if you ask me. This is actually the second time I had to address this issue and I'm only 1 customer. I had to fix it before with the TT2 on XP 32bit.
I did research here and was able to solve it from reading the wiki and a couple other posts (still took a couple of days and a few hours, granted nothing like wrestling the the 64 bit stuff)

That is not how it should be done, Sorry

[RandyT]

Microsoft certainly didn't write your claim that the TT2 and the TTH/L are "plug and play"

Mike, did the spinner work when you plugged it in, without requiring you to install any drivers, yes or no?  The way you are conducting yourself, you would lead people to believe that the answer is no, when we both know better.  That does not mean that some system configuration might not be necessary for specific installations, any more than "plug and play" means one can simply boot up MAME and play any spinner game to perfection without adjusting the sensitivity settings or enabling mouse input.  You are reading far too much into the words as a matter of convenience to your point.

We offer both the TT2 and the High-Low spinners without any interface at all.  On the same page no less.  Derrick was having the exact same problem you were with his x64 system....and he was using an OptiPac with his TT2.   Should I also list every possible optical interface out there and detail it's interaction with every OS?  He not only was able to get it working the way he wanted, he came up with his own unique approach which he documented for the benefit of others.  One thing I would certainly do if brought to my attention and I was able to verify it, is mention any systems where there is a hard incompatibility.  Meaning that there is no known way to make it work in any usable way.  As yet, there are none which even come close to meeting this description.  People love the spinners, and I have never been asked to accept a single return out of the very large number of units we have shipped.  And that includes a ton of XP users.

And you never emailed me about the poll rate thing in XP.  To be fair, nobody does because it's such a well known MS problem and because a simple solution exists.  But if you had, I certainly would have saved you a lot of time.  I don't know where you spent the "days and hours" on the 32-bit XP poll rate thing, but it literally took me 5 minutes to find, download and install the program on my XP system.  Less effort than installing most mainstream hardware devices which have their, often times outdated, drivers in the box with them.

Your comments make it look like you are looking for someone to take the frustrations of using your new OS out on, and I just happen to be handy.  Which I'm not sure I understand, given that fact that I spent a fair amount of time looking into the situation and posting links to places I thought could help you get squared away....which you apparently used to fix your issue.

[Bender]

Make all the excuses you want your product is not "plug n play" in Vista an XP

Sorry!

I tried to be nice about all this, but

DON'T PISS ON ME CAUSE I HAVE A LEGIT COMPLAINT

[RandyT]

DON'T PISS ON ME CAUSE I HAVE A LEGIT COMPLAINT

You do have a legit complaint.  But it is misdirected.  That's why the software exists to remedy the reasons for your complaint.

*edit*  Link to wiki added to product description to make USB poll rate information easy to find for XP users.

BTW, your argument does not take into account that the interface that ships with the TT2 and High-Low is also PS/2 compatible.  The poll rate for PS/2 can be adjusted to 200hz right from the default control panel in XP and probably Vista as well, which is plenty for this application as a last resort.  It should never be necessary to be forced into this route, considering the wide availability of software solutions out there, but it's a good option just in case.

[Bender]

No, you don't understand

My complaint is with your claim of "Plug and Play"
You don't let customer know upfront that they need to do a little work to get the USB spinners functioning properly in xp and vista
Being  Honest with customer I don't think is a lot to ask

I don't mind fixing it, that IS NOT my complaint (and I said I do appreciate your help getting it fixed)
and you know what if you helped up front by letting the customer know about the issue, I bet you could of got it working in XP and vista 32bit in 5 min.

I know I sound like a broken record but you keep missing the point

[RandyT]

I know I sound like a broken record but you keep missing the point

Suffice it to say that I am not the only one that is doing so.  The spinner is 100% properly designed according to USB specifications, usable and fully functional when plugged into the PC.  If you never play a game where rapid movement, or free spin the device hard, then you won't even see the issue that is with your OS, not the spinner (driving games with the steering wheels, as one of many instances.)  And if you decide, based on your needs, that your OS needs to be fixed, there are ways to achieve this, the vast majority of them simple.  Or you can simply use the built-in PS/2 capability of the device and increase the polling rate directly from the control panel.

To underscore this, I just saw that you had to tell someone in another thread how to make the spinner backspin.  He hadn't even noticed that his OS was imposing this software correctable limitation on him.

Some don't even use them for gaming.  We sell loads of them to museums, discovery centers, and kiosk builders.  They don't have your requirements and will never need to do a single thing to their systems but "plug and play". 

The thing that confounds me is that you are sitting there with two perfectly functioning spinners, doing exactly what you want them to be able to do, one of which has absolutely no equal in functionality anywhere in the word and is designed and produced at great personal expense for literally a handful of the most hardcore arcade enthusiasts, and you find it necessary to quibble incessantly about one accurate point in the item's description.  Makes it all worthwhile...

[Bender]

NO, he asked what backspin was, so I gave him some information
Hell, I certainly didn't know what it was till I got my first TT2

I'm not quibbling, your quibbling, I just had one very simple very legitimate concern,

and now you do have me very curious.

Why so resistant to giving the customer some info upfront?

Your blaming me, your blaming Microsoft, your blaming other customers lack of understanding, and I'm not even saying the issue is your fault, just that you should, as a honest business person, let the customers be aware of the issue UPFRONT


as far as the TTH/L your right it is the only Hi res up down spinner (I still like my Apache better, but that I know is definitely personal taste)
the only reason I'm using the TTH/L is the small footprint on a specialty project I'm working on that has very limited space, and I'm gratefull it is available
 


I didn't want to bring you competitors into this, but since you still can't address the question I've stated three separate time now and keep bringing other stuff up...

The TT2 does has an equal (that is actually plug and play on all usb systems)
The Ultimarc SpinTrak has the same resolution and it doesn't need an OS Patch for XP and Vista, I know, I have one

[Bender]

and just so you know I've just had two other members PM me and asking ME how to get  YOUR products functioning properly

I'm certainly am glad to help out

but again it would be nice if you had some info out there upfront for people

[RandyT]

Why so resistant to giving the customer some info upfront?

Because it confuses the issue.  People incorrectly think they might have an issue, when it's likely they won't, or that the issue is far larger than it is in reality.  Much the way you are making it out to be at the moment.

I Didn't want to bring you competitors into this, but since you still can't address the question I've stated three separate time now and keep bringing other stuff up...

But the TT2 does has an equal (that is actually plug and play on all usb systems)
The Ultimarc SpinTrak Has the same resolution and it doesn't need an OS Patch for XP and Vista, I know, I have one

I wonder where that design originated.  Regardless, since you brought it up, I would like to point out that the mini-pac, with the very same limitations, is advertised to work with that spinner directly in the description, yet not a single word regarding poll rates is mentioned in all of that information, or possible issues with certain OS's.  It's obvious that you have decided to single out GGG, due to fanboyism, or some other reason I can't put my finger on.  It's unwarranted, considering that I went well out of my way to help you, and it saddens me that exchanges like this are necessary in public forums in order to keep the record accurate.

and just so you know I've just had two other members PM me and asking ME how to get  YOUR products functioning properly

I'm certainly am glad to help out

but again it would be nice if you had some info out there upfront for people

Maybe they should PM me instead?  And I already said that the link was added to the site, which is more than is on my competitors at the moment.

[Bender]

what link, I missed that, could you point me to where that is?

I found the Link
Hats off to you for the link!
Thanks, I think that is great!!!!


PS: I do like Ultimarc's products, but I like yours just as well, He has some things I use and you have some things I use, your both just about equally represented in my current project. ANYBODY that reads this forum knows I recommend, and have good thing to say about your products

[RandyT]

what link, I missed that, could you point me to where that is?

Go to the site and look.  Refresh your browser if you need to.  I stated that I had, several posts prior.

just to be clear we were discussing spinners that come with an interface, weren't we?

I never said anything about outside interfaces, and don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't expect it to be plug and play and I don't think you claim that in the section where you sell the spinner without an interface

And this is the root of the issue.  You are having knee-jerk reactions to things without accurately assessing the situation.  The spinner is sold with no interface as an option on the very same page.  To go over countless combinations unnecessarily complicates things for the potential user.  It's far better to guide users based on their specific situation, if it's necessary.  99% of the time, it is not.  You are the only individual to have found this method objectionable, and you didn't even email me for support on the situation before stomping your feet in the forums, where I found you and assisted anyway.  And now you call me a "jerk".

ANYBODY that reads this forum knows I recommend, and have good thing to say about your products, the problem is RandyT NOT GGG, other vendors just don't seem to get into tiffs with there customers

Ten thousand GGG customers.....customers I end up in "tiffs" with counted on one hand.  I only do this when I feel GGG is being unfairly maligned and singled out, such is the case here.  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them.  Don't you think that an owner of one of those devices will have to do the same thing you did when they try to use it?  Don't you think someone should have told them as well?  In reality, both companies provide exceptional after the sale support, which means that a user is never left standing in the cold where help can be afforded, as in this situation.  This is the best way, given the myriad combinations of hardware and software, to get people up and running.  Yes, it requires extra effort on my part to do things this way, but it has been proven to be the most effective, and results in happy customers who come back time and time again.  It works for us, sorry it doesn't work for you.

RandyT

[FrizzleFried]

From an outside looking in perspective...


...i see nothing wrong with letting folks know that if they're using a 64bit OS they may have to patch their OS if they encounter backspin issues.  Frankly,  it should be mentioned on any site selling any spinner product that produces such backspin... full disclosure is always the best plan of action.

PS: I love my 3 Turbo Twists....

[RandyT]

...i see nothing wrong with letting folks know that if they're using a 64bit OS they may have to patch their OS if they encounter backspin issues.  Frankly,  it should be mentioned on any site selling any spinner product that produces such backspin... full disclosure is always the best plan of action.

PS: I love my 3 Turbo Twists....

Thanks, Frizz.  I appreciate the generalized sentiment, as it applies to all vendors of these high resolution devices.  It would be nice if someone could include a write up in the wiki pertaining specifically to these 64-bit OS's, as they tend to be more challenging thanks to MS locking the systems down as they have.  Maybe Derrick's write-up should be added....any volunteers?

[FrizzleFried]

...i see nothing wrong with letting folks know that if they're using a 64bit OS they may have to patch their OS if they encounter backspin issues.  Frankly,  it should be mentioned on any site selling any spinner product that produces such backspin... full disclosure is always the best plan of action.

PS: I love my 3 Turbo Twists....

Thanks, Frizz.  I appreciate the generalized sentiment, as it applies to all vendors of these high resolution devices.  It would be nice if someone could include a write up in the wiki pertaining specifically to these 64-bit OS's, as they tend to be more challenging thanks to MS locking the systems down as they have.  Maybe Derrick's write-up should be added....any volunteers?

BTW: I think the issue is more with Vista 64-bit than XP.  I am able to modify XP's poll rate with the utility linked in one of these posts.  It took me while to find one that worked,  but I did...and I didn't have to "unlock" anything.

[RandyT]

BTW: I think the issue is more with Vista 64-bit than XP.  I am able to modify XP's poll rate with the utility linked in one of these posts.  It took me while to find one that worked,  but I did...and I didn't have to "unlock" anything.

Good info to know.  That's my cue to avoid Vista when considering a 64-bit OS.

[FrizzleFried]

I decided on XP x64 over Vista for the sole reason that I am not interested in daddy (ie: MS) constantly connecting/connected to my box.

[RandyT]

I decided on XP x64 over Vista for the sole reason that I am not interested in daddy (ie: MS) constantly connecting/connected to my box.

Reasons 2 through 10 to avoid Vista

BTW, is that on all Vista versions, or only x64?

*edit*

Thank you to whoever added Derrick's Vista x64 write up to the Mouse Polling Wiki Page.  You guys work quick!

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them. 

Thats because when we launched our high-res spinner we revised both these products so that backspin does not happen. Yes they have the poll-rate limitation but they do not backspin. Raising the poll rate is not the only way to prevent backspin.

Andy

[Derrick Renaud]

It would be nice if someone could include a write up in the wiki pertaining specifically to these 64-bit OS's, as they tend to be more challenging thanks to MS locking the systems down as they have.  Maybe Derrick's write-up should be added....any volunteers?

Ummm.... I already did 15 minutes before you posted this.  

I will probably change a bit more of the info on that page.  It seems that MAME no longer behaves like what is written on the page.  Aaron has completely changed things since my last trip fixing input bugs.  I am currently trying to figure out how it works all over again.  I've been using v0115 until very recently.

[RandyT]

  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them. 

Thats because when we launched our high-res spinner we revised both these products so that backspin does not happen. Yes they have the poll-rate limitation but they do not backspin. Raising the poll rate is not the only way to prevent backspin.

And the difference in firmware is not stated, so the net result in the context of the previous discussion is still the same for, I'm assuming, thousands of existing users.

I opted against capping the output a while back, but I may revisit this in light of the Vista x64 situation.  It still isn't as good a solution as simply fixing the OS so it does what it should.  If someone moves the spinner rapidly in a game like Avalanche, and the capping kicks in, when they turn the knob back to where they started from, the position will have changed.  I think it's better for the user to see that the OS is limiting proper operation and fix it, than to have them think the accuracy of the spinner is flawed.

Ummm.... I already did 15 minutes before you posted this.   

I will probably change a bit more of the info on that page.  It seems that MAME no longer behaves like what is written on the page.  Aaron has completely changed things since my last trip fixing input bugs.  I am currently trying to figure out how it works all over again.  I've been using v0115 until very recently.

Heh.  It's like you can see into the future.   Thanks for all of your efforts on these things.....

[Bender]

what link, I missed that, could you point me to where that is?

Go to the site and look.  Refresh your browser if you need to.  I stated that I had, several posts prior.

just to be clear we were discussing spinners that come with an interface, weren't we?

I never said anything about outside interfaces, and don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't expect it to be plug and play and I don't think you claim that in the section where you sell the spinner without an interface

And this is the root of the issue.  You are having knee-jerk reactions to things without accurately assessing the situation.  The spinner is sold with no interface as an option on the very same page.  To go over countless combinations unnecessarily complicates things for the potential user.  It's far better to guide users based on their specific situation, if it's necessary.  99% of the time, it is not.  You are the only individual to have found this method objectionable, and you didn't even email me for support on the situation before stomping your feet in the forums, where I found you and assisted anyway.  And now you call me a "jerk".

ANYBODY that reads this forum knows I recommend, and have good thing to say about your products, the problem is RandyT NOT GGG, other vendors just don't seem to get into tiffs with there customers

Ten thousand GGG customers.....customers I end up in "tiffs" with counted on one hand.  I only do this when I feel GGG is being unfairly maligned and singled out, such is the case here.  I will state this again so you understand; the Opti-Pac and Mini-Pac, with the exact same limitations, are shown being supported by that hi-resolution spinner on the same page with no mention of possible polling issues with some operating systems, or ways to correct them.  Don't you think that an owner of one of those devices will have to do the same thing you did when they try to use it?  Don't you think someone should have told them as well?  In reality, both companies provide exceptional after the sale support, which means that a user is never left standing in the cold where help can be afforded, as in this situation.  This is the best way, given the myriad combinations of hardware and software, to get people up and running.  Yes, it requires extra effort on my part to do things this way, but it has been proven to be the most effective, and results in happy customers who come back time and time again.  It works for us, sorry it doesn't work for you.

RandyT

RandyT

I wrote some of that when I was pretty T-ed off and hit the "post" instead of the "preview" button, That was never meant to go out into the world, I edited it immediately but the edit was posted while you were typing your response ( you can see my edit was posted 15 min. before your response)

My sincerest apologies for calling you a jerk
that is not what this forum is about and I'm very embarrass by it
and hope you will except my apologies,

Humbly Bender

[Derrick Renaud]

It seems that we all have been partially right and partially wrong on this whole backspin problem.  There are so many different issues involved, it seems we have all learnt something.  I for one have learnt that the MAME input system is no longer anything like it was when I worked on it.  A lot of my work is still there but the names/interfaces and overall operation has changed greatly.  A lot of my assumptions no longer apply to the new code.

So it's time to relax and watch Chuck/Heroes. Pretty much the only network TV I watch other then the Simpsons and T:TSCC.  Well I have to use the PVR on T:TSCC because it's now on Fridays.  But I'm way off topic.

 

[Hoopz]

So it's time to relax and watch Chuck/Heroes. Pretty much the only network TV I watch other then the Simpsons and T:TSCC.  Well I have to use the PVR on T:TSCC because it's now on Fridays.  But I'm way off topic.
 

Feel free to visit Everything Else and share your thoughts on Sarah Connor Chronicles.  Everyone else has!   

[Bender]

put the keyboard down and back away form the computer

Time for a Beer!

[SavannahLion]

Not to intercede here.

I opted against capping the output a while back, but I may revisit this in light of the Vista x64 situation.  It still isn't as good a solution as simply fixing the OS so it does what it should.  If someone moves the spinner rapidly in a game like Avalanche, and the capping kicks in, when they turn the knob back to where they started from, the position will have changed.  I think it's better for the user to see that the OS is limiting proper operation and fix it, than to have them think the accuracy of the spinner is flawed.

Some sort of opt-out option? Maybe a cuttable bit of wire on the board to disable the cap. A decent hacker can wire their own switch in if they want. Or... some sort of software command to enable/disable the the cap for certain games, situations, whatever?

Just a thought. 

I don't care much for Microsoft Windows or some of their um... policies. I feel Microsoft has long forgotten the meaning behind their name.

[RandyT]

Some sort of opt-out option? Maybe a cuttable bit of wire on the board to disable the cap. A decent hacker can wire their own switch in if they want. Or... some sort of software command to enable/disable the the cap for certain games, situations, whatever?

Not a bad idea.  I'll consider something like that if I decide to go that route. It would only need to be all or nothing, though, as there would be no good reason to enable it, unless the OS was impossible to fix.  So far, there isn't an OS that meets that description.

My sincerest apologies for calling you a jerk

Don't sweat it.  Lisa apparently thinks that's my name, so I'm used to it.

RandyT

[AndyWarne]

And the difference in firmware is not stated, so the net result in the context of the previous discussion is still the same for, I'm assuming, thousands of existing users.

No, because the previous low-res spinners did not exhibit this problem. If anyone were to have come across this issue by using a later high-res spinner on an old board we would have addressed this as a support issue (although I cant recall ever needing to). BTW the Mini-PAC had backspin designed out from the start.

[AndyWarne]

Some sort of opt-out option? Maybe a cuttable bit of wire on the board to disable the cap. A decent hacker can wire their own switch in if they want. Or... some sort of software command to enable/disable the the cap for certain games, situations, whatever?

There would be no need to disable any protection against the counter overflowing and wrapping round. There is no downside in having this logic present all the time. If the user patches Windows to increase the poll rate, the counter will not overflow and the limit not be reached anyway because the counter is zeroed more often.
Better to use a device with a faster poll rate and/or 16 bit packets though then the question does not arise.
Think of it like this: Imagine a water tank. A tap runs into it (the spinner rotation) and someone is bucketing water out of it (the poll rate).
If the amount bucketed out is less than the amount running in, it will overflow. So you want to fit an overflow pipe in case this happens.
If you increase the rate of bucketing out (poll rate), the overflow will not happen, or if you increase the size of the bucket (the packet size) the overflow will not happen. But in these cases there would be nothing gained by capping off the overflow pipe.

[SavannahLion]

Hard to "genericize" a remark, so forgive me. I'm not targeting one or the other.

I understand the concept, it was merely a suggestion in order to gain greater control (or variety) over hardware/software solutions/combinations while keeping hardware costs as low as possible.

Randy and Andy both have slightly different schools of thought on how to approach certain problems. I don't claim to know how either spinner works. At this point, I have no spinner. Thereby, I really have no right to judge the er... merits of any spinner. But it seems to me, based on the numerous discussions and postings, that the different spinners have slightly different approaches. I guess my point is, whatever suggestion one make might be applicable to one, both or even none.

Different strokes, different folks. 

[Derrick Renaud]

If the interface caps overflow, I think it should be mentioned is the specs.  Capping limits the maximum spin.  The one (and only) benefit of OS poll rate backspin is to notify the user that they need to up their OS poll rate. I suppose you could add a solder jumper tab to select the use of this feature.  I do understand that there is no down side to capping if your OS poll rate is high enough, but with it capped, you have no easy way to know if you are being capped without the backspin.

Andy,
  at the time I had received my Opti-Pac, I had questioned you about the poll rate and 16-bit issue.  You told me that the device should be unlocked, but it turned out XP was locking it to 125Hz.  That is how I searched out the USB poll rate patcher.  I then asked about going to 16-bit to solve the problem and you had stated compatibility concerns on doing so in USB 1.1.

Is there any problems using 16-bit data with USB 1.1.  Do all versions of Windows from 95 & up support this? Do your new interfaces support 16-bit in USB 1.1 mode.

Thanks,
D.

[TPB]

I guess if we're talking about spinner product descriptions that fully disclose all compatibility issues,
 
Notwithstanding Bender's love of his Apache, and his disinterest in playing Arkanoid or DOH,   

The inability of a low-res spinner (such as the Tornado or Apache) to accurately play Arkanoid or DOH on ANY Operation System, for which no patch is available (as it's a hardware limitation with the spinner itself), is something that should be disclosed.

As Bender and Frizz say, ideally all issues should be disclosed, but on the scale of things, the issues with low-res spinners (which aren't disclosed by their vendors) are far greater.

Look at the Happ website - they state "The Tornado spinner is best arcade spinning device in the market today".   

http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/95265700.htm


I can see Randy's point about confusing potential customers with too much detail on problems that will only occur for a small percentage of users (those using an uncommon 64 bit OS, WHILST ALSO vigorously spinning in games like Tempest).  And in any case, a patch is available to solve the problem, which Randy would point out to anyone who emailed him with a support request.

Unnecessarily confusing potential customers with a "mountain of compatibility information" about a non-issue, will dissuade some of them from purchasing, which equals lost sales for the vendor, which affects their livelihood.

And anyone who is unnecessarily dissuaded from buying, may end up WORSE OFF, if they then go and buy an inferior low-res spinner when they read outlandish claims such as those from the Happ product description above.


P.S.  There's so many spinner threads on-the-go at the moment (no less than 3), touching on this same issue, it's hard to judge in which one to post.   

[AndyWarne]

Andy,
  at the time I had received my Opti-Pac, I had questioned you about the poll rate and 16-bit issue.  You told me that the device should be unlocked, but it turned out XP was locking it to 125Hz.

Yes indeed. That was many years ago when I was still green and naive. I learned on my grandmothers knee that a USB device has its poll rate set in the device descriptor. Little did I know that Microsoft had decided to ignore this on low speed USB devices!

Is there any problems using 16-bit data with USB 1.1.  Do all versions of Windows from 95 & up support this? Do your new interfaces support 16-bit in USB 1.1 mode.

Thanks,
D.

Yes the new interfaces support 16 bit in USB 1.1
I must admit I have not tested this in Windows 98 or 95. I suppose I should state that the new devices are qualified as compatible with XP upwards.

Andy

[Derrick Renaud]

Is there any problems using 16-bit data with USB 1.1.  Do all versions of Windows from 95 & up support this? Do your new interfaces support 16-bit in USB 1.1 mode.

Yes the new interfaces support 16 bit in USB 1.1
I must admit I have not tested this in Windows 98 or 95. I suppose I should state that the new devices are qualified as compatible with XP upwards.

Andy

I'm not to concerned about 95 or 98 myself.  I know others use it.  I was just trying to remember if that was what the concern was with 16 bit data.

It's great that 16-bit is working fine in your new products.  Definitely should solve any overflow problems with a locked 125Hz system.

[2600]

Yes indeed. That was many years ago when I was still green and naive. I learned on my grandmothers knee that a USB device has its poll rate set in the device descriptor. Little did I know that Microsoft had decided to ignore this on low speed USB devices!

Microsoft didn't ignore it per se.  Low Speed devices are only guaranteed speeds up to 10ms per the spec.  The OS has the option to poll faster though.  It was just easier for them to poll all low speed devices at 8ms? instead of having to wast resources constantly figuring out the Current Bus Bandwidth Allocation.

Another positive thing about Full speed speed devices is it allows a lot more options and flexibility, like composite devices so that you don't run into the Mouse Z axis limitation in Windows, and the devices run a lot faster.

[RandyT]

Microsoft didn't ignore it per se.  Low Speed devices are only guaranteed speeds up to 10ms per the spec.  The OS has the option to poll faster though.  It was just easier for them to poll all low speed devices at 8ms? instead of having to wast resources constantly figuring out the Current Bus Bandwidth Allocation.

This would make sense, to a point.  However, seeing that the system is obviously capable of the higher speeds, it is, IMHO, a bonehead decision to not offer users the option of setting that speed to whatever they wish through a simple registry entry modification.  Still no need to constantly monitor or shift gears, so if that was their primary concern, this approach would have been infinitely better.

RandyT

[Todd H]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I just ordered a TT2 from Randy mainly for playing Tempest but also the Arkanoid games. So will Arkanoid be playable with the TT2 if I patch windows to up the poll rate? Or will it just not be accurate enough?

As for Centipede, I remember playing it years ago using a desktop trackball and was not impressed. It didn't feel anything like I remembered back in the 80's, even after adjusting the settings in MAME. No matter how fast I spun the trackball, it seemed to always move at the same speed. I remember sending in a bug report way back when(must have been a good 9 years ago). Sounds like the problem may still persist.

[RandyT]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I just ordered a TT2 from Randy mainly for playing Tempest but also the Arkanoid games. So will Arkanoid be playable with the TT2 if I patch windows to up the poll rate? Or will it just not be accurate enough?

I don't mean to use you as an example, Todd, but your question illustrates perfectly why I don't like to confuse the issue with too much of this type of data.  Absolutely will your new TurboTwist 2 spinner be as accurate as any other high resolution spinner on the market after the simple poll rate patch, if you are using an OS which even requires one.

Also, we keep calling this a patch, but it appears that one of the better solutions out there now is actually a new generic driver which allows for poll rate settings.  Regardless, you will be enjoying your favorites as accurately as the game will allow.

As for Centipede, I remember playing it years ago using a desktop trackball and was not impressed. It didn't feel anything like I remembered back in the 80's, even after adjusting the settings in MAME. No matter how fast I spun the trackball, it seemed to always move at the same speed. I remember sending in a bug report way back when(must have been a good 9 years ago). Sounds like the problem may still persist.

Your memory is on the money.  This behavior is probably at the top of the list for me for disappointments with MAME.  I don't complain too much because someone might tell me to fix it if I don't like it .  But whenever I can get Derrick's ear, I seem to bring it up.  Maybe someday it will get figured out, but at the moment, it seems to be one of those enigmas.

RandyT

[Todd H]

I've been following this thread with great interest. I just ordered a TT2 from Randy mainly for playing Tempest but also the Arkanoid games. So will Arkanoid be playable with the TT2 if I patch windows to up the poll rate? Or will it just not be accurate enough?

I don't mean to use you as an example, Todd, but your question illustrates perfectly why I don't like to confuse the issue with too much of this type of data.  Absolutely will your new TurboTwist 2 spinner be as accurate as any other high resolution spinner on the market after the simple poll rate patch, if you are using an OS which even requires one.

Also, we keep calling this a patch, but it appears that one of the better solutions out there now is actually a new generic driver which allows for poll rate settings.  Regardless, you will be enjoying your favorites as accurately as the game will allow.

As for Centipede, I remember playing it years ago using a desktop trackball and was not impressed. It didn't feel anything like I remembered back in the 80's, even after adjusting the settings in MAME. No matter how fast I spun the trackball, it seemed to always move at the same speed. I remember sending in a bug report way back when(must have been a good 9 years ago). Sounds like the problem may still persist.

Your memory is on the money.  This behavior is probably at the top of the list for me for disappointments with MAME.  I don't complain too much because someone might tell me to fix it if I don't like it .  But whenever I can get Derrick's ear, I seem to bring it up.  Maybe someday it will get figured out, but at the moment, it seems to be one of those enigmas.

RandyT

Good to know about Arkanoid. It's one of my favorites.

So it's not just me then when it comes to Centipede. Maybe Our friend Derrick can do some investigating and figure out how to improve MAME's Centipede performance.